I relied on this video for learning, planning, ordering, and assembling. Well done. Thanks! All went well with 2 exceptions. The Marlin settings had no effect. On my machine, Z steps/mm is over-written by the eeprom. Manually changing on display would have taken an eternity. I had to do an M92 Z1600 and save setting. To speed up the drive screw, I had to change the #define HOMING_FEEDRATE_Z to 125. It was a good thing I started with x carriage midway up and did a test of raising z axis 10mm which traveled 25mm. I mention the eeprom because most people probably wont read thru 200+ comments and it took me a good hour or so to figure these out.
Another helping video..thanks Chris.. just wanted to note that at 4:00 you are right that the pitch is 2mm also they wrote there mm/revolution so i guess they meant how many mm we advance in a revolution and it's 8mm then with 1:1 gear it's given the same number.. but i am just noting the final answer is the same
Thanks for an excellent explanation on the various calculations involved with the various types of rods. As for the couplers, with the “standard” springy one, to reduce the springiness, put a ball bearing in between the rod and stepper shaft, no gap, and tightened with the coupler slightly stretched.
I accidentally ordered a 2mm 1 start lead screw for a printer upgrade recently, based on the thought that 2mm per rotation would be more accurate on the Z axis than an 8mm per rotation. Thanks for confirming this, I'm actually glad that I ordered the 2mm lead screw over the 8mm one that I have on another machine :)
I switched from anti backlash brass nuts to POM acetal nuts. they do need bit of work (spinning them trough the rod like 5-6 times for me) to get smooth and always have a bit more friction but LIKE OMFG my prints look freaking injection molded now... it's insane
Fantastic explanation Chris, it's gonna help a lot of newbies out there (maybe some not-so-newbies too) When I first started 3D printing, I had a hard time getting my head around the lead screw terminology and definitions.
Personal Summary Notes: - Pitch: distance bet. threads - Start: separate thread path - Lead= Pitch x start - Lead/Steps= linear distance per step - for system that require faster movement it uses multiple starts, every start acts as single start with high pitch. - might have more friction and require a more powerful motor to drive them effectively. They could also be more prone to backlash and require higher precision in design and manufacturing to ensure proper alignment. - single start travel a lot of distance in small pitch, slow put more precision - Helical type coupler: can move in X & Y axes but also can hop a lil in Z-dir
This is an excellent video Chris!I'm sure many people haven't considered the step rounding "issue". It will have an impact on high layer-resolution prints. I have my 'specialty' printer build with a 1mm (single start) lead screw for producing 70um layers needed for some of my customers. Produces silky smooth layers especially noticeable on top curved surfaces.
I initially built my version of Dolly with 5/16" threaded rod. A few months ago, I swapped them out for 8mm lead screws. I can't tell any obvious difference in the print quality, although the printer in general seems a tad quieter. Another worthwhile upgrade is to change out the heated bed mosfet on the ramps board with a logic level mosfet such as a IRLB8743. The original mosfet on the ramps board was too hot to touch while printing. The replacement is barely above room temperature.
Agreed, those mosfets are junk, I have burned up 3 or 4 of them now. I am currently using a ramps 1.6 shield that has a little different type on it. So far so good.
I just recently replaced the 5mm threaded rod on my Printrbot Smalls to an 8mm 4-start lead screw and now I wish I would have seen this before: I'm quite sure I entered 1600 steps/mm on the Z. So, better double-check that! Thank you Chris for the once again very informational and yet entertaining vid! Cheers man!
Tip from a guy that got a TR8 screw set for his cheap i3 clone and calibrated his printer for them: You can manually find the Z steps if you don't run the calculations seen in this vid with a great deal of accuracy dependant on how accurate your tools are. I did the same steps/mm calculation that you would use for E-steps and used a caliper to get a measurement. You should, for the sake of repeatability move the Z axis, measure, calculate, program, home, set to 100mm, measure, if it's within .005 to 0.01mm of 100mm you should be good for fine detail prints. If you want the extra granularity for whatever reason (maybe you have OCD for accurate Z height or you do very fine detail small prints) you can keep re-calculating until you eventually get a steps/mm value that gets you as close to exactly 100mm.
Nice presentation. Always cracked me up when people would argue that your layer height doesn't matter with micro stepping. Don't see it as much anymore. Always better to work with the hardware instead of trying to force to do what you want.
Great Job Chris! I tried to explain the lead screws info in my "Need for lead" video. Also the single start gives your Z Motor 4 times the torq. I wish I could have presented if half as well as you.. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the kind words, I also missed a point in there I wanted to make about single starts. It's almost impossible to back feed them, so continuous voltage on those steppers can be much less. Thanks for watching!
ok so incase anyone aside from me was wondering if your old nut will work on a single start lead screw it won't I had a T8 4 start lead screw with an anti-backlash nut that I had to modify by grinding it (was for an ender 2) then bought a T8 1 start lead screw and it won't thread luckily the seller provided a nut I'm just going to have to grind it down to fit the ender 2
Great video! I found the Spider connectors caused a lot of binding because the threaded rod would not align with the motor shaft and cause the threaded rod to wobble back and forth. I'm also a big fan of Anti-backlash nuts on the z threaded rod as often there is some play in those nuts and that keeps the layer height very consistent.
I have found the spiders do have to be set just right to work well. The others are a little more forgiving. On the 4 start screws you are correct, the nuts can have a little play when they are technically already pre loaded gravity. The singles are almost impossible to back feed, so the seem more stable. Thanks for the comment and watching!
So I f I wanna make Prices cnc milling machine , it's good to choose single thread instead of 4 starting thread ? What makes diffrence ? , can we compensate this variation of linear motion per revolution per steps , in Cnc Program? Or any type Of starting thread can be used ?
You can use any thread and change it up in the firmware. All the different profiles I show in this video are going to be MORE than accurate enough for the machine.
Nice video again! Went thru this theoretical research as well, but you presented it better than what I've found anywhere else (and what I'd be able to). Thanks a lot!
Man, your videos are helping me a lot while i fighting with my diy prusa MK2 clone. Keep the goog work and thanks for being so clear on your explanations. Grettings from Argentina!
ok this maybe a stupid question but now I want to get single start lead screws for all my printers but after looking around I can't find any with anti backlash nuts as long as I buy the T8s with the 2mm pitch can I still use the same anti backlash nuts that work on the 4 start lead screws?
You can, but that is kind of a farce. Those nuts are pre loaded if the motor is on the bottom. With single start you shouldn't have any issue where antibacklase will be needed.
@@ChrisRiley ok thanks for getting back so fast I saw a jump in quality way back when I started 3d printing with my robo R1 and I've been buying them for every other printer since I kinda wish I found your channel earlier but I'm really enjoying your videos if your ever in Alaska I'd love to grab a drink with you
@@ChrisRiley 😂 not at all. It was very interesting. Im installing a dual Z in my printer and now I understand the differences I see on the various Lead Screws available for purchase. Thank you for sharing the knowledge. 🙏
Do the spider couplers offer more accuracy than solid couplers? Is the benefit just vibration reduction or do you actually lose or gain accuracy switching from solid couplers to spider couplers?
Both types have there draw backs, but one over the other shouldn't impact your accuracy. As long as your Z smooth rods are aligned and well seated either one should be just fine.
Hmm this bring up some ideas in slic3r settings for my Prusa mk3. That is a 8mm x2mm pitch x 8mm lead from what i read in their forums. Going by that a step is 0.04mm so I should set layer heights to multiples of that. 0.12, 0.16, 0.20, and 0.24 should be the height option for slicing to give no rounding inacuracies. Gota wonder why they give 05,10,15,20 as the preconfigured height settings in slic3r PE.
I have had those same thoughts. I mostly print at .2mm, but I kind of wonder why tr8x8 became the go to profile. Maybe they were easier to get? They are faster, but other than homing and leveling you really got no benefit from the speed.
Fortunately, you run at 1/16 microstepping, so you can divide your calculations by 16 and enjoy the sweet resolution :) Keep it at multiples of 0.0025 and you should be fine :)
Chris Riley I think you may find hackaday.com/2016/08/29/how-accurate-is-microstepping-really/ interesting. I don't know what load a typical Z axis imposes so I don't know if microstepping actually works as expected. I am thinking of replacing my steeper with a 400 step/rev rather than replacing the 8mm lead leadscrew.
DennisFisherUK VERY interesting! Thanks for the link. I have read a lot of white papers on this and there are many in's and out's to this whole mess.
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Replacing the squeaky 5mm z rods is the very next change in my i3 mk2 "dolly". Perfect timing Chris, now I know exactly what to expect! Great video! Thanks!
Just wanted to say Chris, since I've gotten into 3d printing, I had no clue what anyone was saying about layer height, and many other terms you mentioned. I had no idea on lead screws and how it related to micro stepping and layer heights on your prints. With this video now it all makes all sense and now I am actually noticing a difference on both my Ender 3 and Ender 5 printers that I had two different lead screws on each one! On on my Ender 3 I have a 4 start and my Ender 5 I have a 2 start! So both of my printers have different layer height multiples (0.04 and 0.02)! I thought they were all the same! Thanks to your video this def clears up a lot. Is there a benefit of using a 4, 2, or even a 1 start? Is there a difference in quality and or how the stepper motor can handle the layers?
Glad it helped! Now a days, there isn't a lot of difference since the drivers and microstepping is so good. Technically on paper single start would make your layer fall closer to full or half steps, which again, on paper, would be better. Can you see it on the print? Probably not.
Hi Chris, great video, im really enjoying your series. I have learned a lot from you over the last few weeks in building my first printer. but im wondering about your calculations when you say about "whatever micro stepping" I have ran the calculations and i see once you go to 1/4 or above micro stepping, the layer heights do not need rounding for an 8mm lead screw with a 2mm pitch and 200 rev stepper. unless ive got my sums wrong. in the below, the figures under 2mm and 8mm are the steps required to achieve the layer height. 1/4 Micro stepping LH 2mm 8mm 0.1 40 10 0.15 60 15 0.2 80 20 0.25 100 25 0.3 120 30 0.35 140 35 0.4 160 40 1/8 Micro stepping LH 2mm 8mm 0.1 80 20 0.15 120 30 0.2 160 40 0.25 200 50 0.3 240 60 0.35 280 70 0.4 320 80 1/16 Micro stepping LH 2mm 8mm 0.1 160 40 0.15 240 60 0.2 320 80 0.25 400 100 0.3 480 120 0.35 560 140 0.4 640 160 Taking an example from your figures at 2:08. LH NO MS 1/4 MS 1/8 MS 0.15 3.75 15 30 0.3 7.5 30 60 0.45 11.25 45 90 Using the standard 200 steps steppers, 8mm lead, 2mm pitch. once you go to 1/4 micro stepping, you are getting 0.01mm resolution per step. so any layer height can be achieved. i know there are disadvantages of micro stepping. But if you can over come them, would you still consider an 8mm lead screw has a disadvantage over a 2mm lead screw.
Thank you for this comment, I don't make some of the statements in this video very clear and I apologize for that. In the video I am suggesting that if you stay on the full step and don't land on the micro step your accuracy will always be higher. How much high, a very very small amount. Micro stepping for the most part works great, but on the micro level it will never be as accurate as the stater. Hopefully that helps!
You could actually print some before getting the real thing : www.thingiverse.com/thing:2538792 After a year of use the PLA ones just begin to get some slack. Here are actual ones www.aliexpress.com/item/-/32878380864.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.1ee02e0en7BhS8
Chris Riley or ya can go this route: www.thingiverse.com/thing:3098752 should be able to continue to use the z couple you got & switch back to the brass nut.
With a Tr8*2 lead screw, how would the torque change at the same steps/s and at the same mm/s? (Let's say 4mm/s with a Tr8*8 lead screw) Should I run it on the same steps/s, or is it safe to run it on the same mm/s, with an Ender 3 default Z motor, for the sake of the motor and the motor driver (SKR Mini, TMC2209)? I don't have a Tr8*2 lead screw yet, so I'm just gathering information.
Hi Chris, So ive got a question I'm wondering if you can help me with, I'm looking at changing my ender 3 to a Tr8x2 after watching this video, but almost every search term I try throw at Google I don't get a concrete response to, So my question is, I notice the lead nut looks completely different has 4 screw holes, do they match up so I can just screw 2 in? If not is there a lead nut that I can buy that Google isn't showing me? cheers in advance!
Hey Grant, tr8x2 will be a different nut and they are going to be really hard to find in the ender 3 style. Probably have to find some to machine one down to fit.
Chris, very well explained. You took a potentially confusing subject and made it straight forward and easy to understand. Good job. BTW< do you plan on launching a second channel or covering CNC as I have seen on another channel? Just curious. Tom
also acetal (POM) nuts are amazing! Personally switching to them improved my ancyubic i3-mega's print quality. original prusa printers use those! just not the anti-backlash portion which isn't that necessary. they technically need no lubrication either. but those nylon-pla printed ones are just as good honestly. tho a few of them broke on my corexy cause the z axis is very heavy :D also you can use spring couples without the side effects if you put an 8mm steel ball inside the coupler. just drop it in. screw the motor shaft and while you screw the top rod just pull it slightly upwards and tighten it.
Thank you! Appreciate the response and the videos! I bought (6) x2 and (3) x1 but as is and need work but could not find info ARTILERY was not much help with part spec and part info. Have a few bad lead screws but wanted to go longer to 800mm. Or 1000mm and go double on bed size just for fun/learning. (New to 3d printing) Online sellers for the x1 x2 lead screw did not have spec info. I watched your video several times but still was not sure what I was seeing. Thanks again!
hi Chris, i own a Tronxy x5sa Pro with the oem board. If i want to go with a ball screw arrangement, would there be an off the shelf swap with the original screws? i.e. no firmware mod's. If firmware mod's are required, would it be difficult to work out? (fyi, i have a duet 2 wifi on it's way from china). cheers Tony.
@@ChrisRiley thanks for your reply. its just that even with anti-back lash nuts my bed moves out of tolerance after 2 prints. I got all the corners stiffened. Last solutions i think are ball screws or delrim nuts. Maybe look at linear rail combined with T8 screws? runnning out of solutions....
For those magic numbers, your bed would have to be level at the perfect spot at the start of a step on the motor. Have done many quality tests , and these multiples don't seem to change anything for me
It sucks, all the 1 start lead screws i found have to be shipped from China, so any bent ones are gonna be a pain to send back. Why is it only the 4 start available to ship in 2 to 3 days???
If the original lead screw needs the motor to make 3.75 full steps for 0.15 layer height, but the motor is set for 16x microstepping, why can't the motor simply take 3.75x16=60 micro steps? There might be some layer heights that won't match neatly with the steps available, but it seems that the common ones would work just fine.
Hello Friend, I need your help to make some key decisions. I am making a large size 3d printer CoreXY type, bed will not move, size - 2300*1500*1500mm (X Y Z). Due to the large size of x & y, I have two options, one is to use large width belt 10mm, another solution is a ball screw. We don't have to compromise in speed and quality, so please guide according to your experience. In the view of the ball screw, I don't have experience of use of a ball screw, so there is doubt on the backlash problem in the ball screw. So please guide that, Have you observed backlash effect in ball screw, if yes than please guide on how to fix this problem. Please discuss in the view of ball screw SFU1610 for X & Y axis. Also guide, ball screw SFU1605 is better or lead screw for Z axis. In lead screws, we eliminate backlash effects by using anti backlash spring nuts. Same way is there any way to properly eliminate backlash in Ball Screw. You can also suggest your ideas for a large size printer. Please reply
There are a lot of things to consider when making a printer this large. The large it gets the problems you see get made larger as well. You need to make sure it is very sturdy. Ball screws are going to be much more accurate than a lead screw. The ball screw will have much lower backlash by design.
@@ShubhamGupta-xb1om That's hard to say, belts get very slack at long distance, but longer lead screws that are strait are hard to get. I guess I would go with wider belts for a larger machine.
@@ChrisRiley openbuilds products don't list an accuracy. I was hoping for at least C7 grade, so it would be difficult to purchase something that I don't know what I'm going to get. The link leads to a place that doesn't sell anything larger than about 250mm, and I need 520mm for my z axis.
Ok. I have a question about your math. You say the printer cannot achieve a perfect layer at .15mm layer height at 200 steps per millimeter. I agree. But they you say it can't do that no matter what the micro-stepping is. Most printers do 16 micro steps. Which gives you 0.0025mm per microstep. 8mm/(200steps * 16microsteps)=0.0025. Layer height of .15 = 60 microsteps (0.15 / 0.0025 = 60). Layer height of .1 = 40 microsteps (0.10 / 0.0025 = 40) So actually, in Marlin with a 8mm dia rod, with 4 starts, 2mm pitch and 8mm travel per revolution, you would enter 400 for the steps per mm - as I have on my Hypercube with 16microstepping enabled on the mainboard. Again, that works out to 0.0025mm per microstep with 60 microsteps per .15mm and 40 microsteps per 0.1mm. Even at .01mm that still exactly 4 microsteps (not accounting for MIN_STEPS_PER_SEGMENT) Take your default steps per unit with your old 5mm rods of 4000. That 4000 steps per mm = 0.00025mm per step. .15 layer height = 600 steps. So, yes, if your drivers only did full steps, this would make a big difference. But then, you'd be entering 100 for steps/mm in Marlin and not 1600 Did I miss something?
I apologize, I didn't state that as well as I should have. The issue that you would see throws micro stepping out the window basically. I think I said "no matter what your micro stepping" or something like that, which now a days I see 256 stepping a lot, which is crazy to me. You are correct, take 1/16 stepping the math works out. The layer height issue you would see is because the logic doing the micro stepping will never be able to match that exact step amount. Don't get me wrong, it is really good at what it does and getting better all the time. I have seen these crazy micro layer stacking issues caused by it. So staying close to the multiple of the whole step value should achieve better results. Again, a VERY minor improvement, I really made the video as more of a "think about this" than anything else.
most 256usteps (all that i have seen anyway) is not driven with 256 usteps from the controller most of the tmc is run like it had 16 usteps, then the motor driver converts it 256 usteps internaly. So you will always move 1/16th of a step. the ressons for more steps internaly is to have the motor run smoothley and quiet
Microstepping lessens the torque and although the resolution increases the accuracy remains the same for the one step which means the percentage of error increases as the step degree decrease so multiply the number of possible error(accuracy) by the number of steps you will find that the total error per revolution increases drastically when increasing the microstepping resolution, to over come this point you need to decrease the speed (pulses per motor phase still the same but the time for the pulses should increase ie: operate at low fequency :D ) to allow the coils to be well energized to give enough torque, but thats donot mean that when lessens the speed you can get the 100% torque of the full step! Microstepping is no magic, just a tool need to be used in right time and place
Always love Chris's videos esp the Superman speed breakdown/rebuilds but it's also excellent that people who understand the maths can explain microstepping too. It's really good to read this information written down & have it's significance also explained, so THANKS for adding your knowledge.
Hey Chris. Love your work and have felt empowered to try upgrading my printer. I bought some T8x2 with one start, updated my printer to the 3.0.0 and got a successful test print. I switched out the lead screws and updated the firmware but when I went to test it the z axis only went up a fraction of the max height. Any ideas?
Hi Chris, I am learning quite a bit from your youtube videos. Thank you! I am having trouble with the first 5 layers on my print. I have a TR8x8 z axis lead screw. The first layer height is 0.2 and the layer height afterwars is 0.16. Should work, right. But the first few layers are too close and there is alot rough patches in those layers. Any advice??/
Awesome to hear! It could be backlash in your gantry. Sometime on certain printers, the first couple of turns on the Z aren't as efficient as they should be because to droop from the X gantry. Sometimes anti backlash nuts can help, or just snugging up the gantry so it's more efficient.
Thank you very much for the video. Definitely a good bit of knowledge for the printer design I'm tinkering with. A quick question though as I'm leaning toward ball screws instead of the more common lead. Would this vid's info transfer 1-1 for both lead and ball screw set ups or would you foresee it to be a good bit of difference between one and the other?
It should be pretty much the same between the two. I don't know that you gain a lot from the ball screw unless your design is massive. I think it should work just fine either way.
Chris Riley Was leaning toward ball screws due to the lower wear over time, higher overall load capacities, and higher general top speeds from what I've researched. The math for both was just in general driving me up a wall and your video made it just make sense. The main odd difference I'd like to attempt on the printer is a 100% non-moving bed. Concept wise that I'd like to try to do is to try and make a Core XY with that gantry set up on dual z with quad rails/guides along the corners of the printer. Hopefully this will work, here's a link to a pic of a rough sketch/concept I was trying in Fusion360. pbs.twimg.com/media/Dkhp60EVAAAGuRU.jpg At least that's the thought so far anyway. If it works, Sweet, if not, well this machine is being made to be a machine I can tinker around with and add/remove components.
Hi Chris have a question for you. I have a modixbig60 prints 600 in all axis. If I print a part with a height of 5mm it comes out about 5.3mm Extrusion steps good but now I'm looking at the steps for my z axis..right now HMI says 2000. In which way should I adjust the steps to compensate for the increased travel. ThankYou
@@ChrisRiley ah OK, makes sense then. Love your videos. You explain a lot of things very well that most the big 3d printing TH-camrs don't even really talk about.
Chris, I came across your video and was impressed with the way you explained the various parts as well as the important points. May I ask you for your help. I am looking for a catalogue that lists the various parts that go to make printers or other similar equipment. If you could provide name(s) and websites I shall be most grateful. Thank you in advance.
Hey Harry, I wish there was a more direct way of finding a lot of these parts. We are pretty much left with catalogs to get a lot of this done. Zyltech is pretty good about laying it out. www.zyltech.com/ Also, for something like a Prusa, check out the links in the BOM I created. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AKX1dBssPeFiCTYAHjYHZiUIhAR5COqE82Bq8tjKFSE/edit?usp=sharing
@@ChrisRiley I see! How do you say your new to the hobby without "saying your new to the hobby". Thanks for all you do! Your style and content is the best.
We're talking about 3d printer x axis load here though. The nut can take 1250 pounds before it gives. I think we're OK with single starts load capacity
About the only place I can find the different sizes are on ebay. I really don't know of a good seller, but I have bought from a couple of them and they seem to work well.
Hello my friends. I don't have much experience for building my 3d printer. I have a few questions. I know that if the BED of the 3d printer moves in the vertical direction and its weight is high, if power will be cut off and the lead screw is not suitable, there is a possibility of it falling and you cannot continue printing after the power is connected Or it will be very difficult to continue printing. I have designed a printer that I will tell you about and I would appreciate it if you could help me with the questions I have. Bed size: aluminum 50x50x0.6cm with a glass on top. This bed only move in Y axis. 1- Can 1 nema 17 (4.4kg/cm) with GT2 pulley with 6mm belt move this Bed in Y axis without any problem? You probably tell me that it depends on the bed weight. And my question is, what should be the weight of this bed? so that 1 nema 17 (4.4kg/cm) can move it horizontally? 2- The accuracy in the Z direction is very important for us. and for this reason, I chose this lead screw: (( D= 8mm/ lead= 1mm/ Pitch = 1mm/ 1 start )) and the driver is DRV8825 which has a 1/32 microstep. My extruder is indirect and only E3d-v6 attach to x axix and I attach MK8 filament driver to Structure and moving filament with PTFE pipe 4-2mm. With these conditions, if the power is cut off, the X-axis will not fall in the vertical direction if I use this lead screw? I used two lead screws with these specifications in the vertical direction. Please guide me so that I don't go the wrong way and buy the wrong parts.
The first question is hard to answer. There will be some trial and error. NEMA 17's can move a lot of weight, but the more weight, the slower you will have to go. The second question, if you are using single starts like you say, you will have no issues with backfeeding.
I was going to post some links, but those TR8x2 rods are hard to find. I am not sure how long you need for the A8, but give these a look. Couplers: Amazon: www.amazon.com/Aluminium-Flexible-Coupling-Connector-Coupler/dp/B01CWMGUDY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1537985231&sr=8-4&keywords=3d+printer+coupler Aliexpress: www.aliexpress.com/store/product/D20L25-jaw-flexible-motor-coupling-aluminium-CNC-spider-flexible-jaw-coupler-5x8mm-3mm-4mm-5mm-6mm/1949652_32875281411.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10065_10068_10130_5726815_10547_10546_10059_10884_10548_315_10545_10887_10696_100031_531_10084_10083_5726915_10103_10618_10307_449,searchweb201603_60,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&algo_expid=83e0862f-2ec3-451e-9b4a-a9c10db4a12f-1&algo_pvid=83e0862f-2ec3-451e-9b4a-a9c10db4a12f&priceBeautifyAB=0 Lead screws, I have never bought from this seller, but it looks like they have 4 and single start screws. www.ebay.com/itm/T8-Lead-2-8mm-Rod-Stainless-Lead-Screw-Linear-Rail-Bar-100mm-1200mm/173380260628?hash=item285e44d314%3Am%3AmFtiESWKdJ-moCcoGrJGcOw&var=472089195623
Hi, i thinking about the Leadscrews In my Way i put the Motors on Top of the Machine, in the upper Part with a Bearing that give Length Movoment Capability. The Bearing on the Bottom is Radial and axial fix. So can the wobbwlish wobbelmotor with The Coupling Dance around.... I chose the first one of coupler, i think it has better rotational correctnes... Maybee i will try it out. (the best designes you see in the Industry. I have seen such a setup with motors on top and will try it out Best Regards from Germany =)
T8x8 binds to no ends vs T8x2, with everything straight and new. Get high precision 0.9 degree or 400 step motors from ZYLTech in Texas. Ships fast and cheap from USA.
I just upgraded my lead screw (www.amazon.com/ReliaBot-150mm-Thread-Printer-Machine/dp/B07QXYVW8R/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8) on my ender 5 pro. I changed the steps to 1600 and the federate to 3 (It was at 20, not sure why), and when I try to home the printer, the coupler spins quite a bit, and the axis moves some, and then it makes quite a loud whining like noise (coming from the z stepper motor I assume). all the motors and such are stock so I am not sure what I am missing, not entering in correctly....any ideas?
Thanks so much for breaking the math down so well. I would have never figured any of this out on my own and it's very relevant to me as I'm now buying parts to upgrade my ancient robo 3d r1. The 4 start 8mm lead screws certainly are the most popular/readily available on amazon. In my case I've only ever printed at 0.2 layer height so I can see how grabbing these and moving on with my life would be perfectly fine. But your point about achieving any layer height within two decimal places, for the single start lead screws, was an important take away. I didn't really understand some of the math, so I took what you explained at different points in the video and tried to lay it all out in one shot in a spreadsheet. I've shared it publicly for anyone who wants to study it. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KFYwtGOEPqN6q9QY-LbsYkHjHQ_yWnzOfWCUha9THWI/edit?usp=sharing
And the end result is the same as before. Well done. You can pour a ton of money to your FDM printer and it will not improve the print quality that much.
This video is so complete I come back to it every time I need some info about lead screws. Thank you so much for doing this video
Cool! Thanks for watching
I relied on this video for learning, planning, ordering, and assembling. Well done. Thanks! All went well with 2 exceptions. The Marlin settings had no effect. On my machine, Z steps/mm is over-written by the eeprom. Manually changing on display would have taken an eternity. I had to do an M92 Z1600 and save setting. To speed up the drive screw, I had to change the #define HOMING_FEEDRATE_Z to 125. It was a good thing I started with x carriage midway up and did a test of raising z axis 10mm which traveled 25mm. I mention the eeprom because most people probably wont read thru 200+ comments and it took me a good hour or so to figure these out.
Good catch, yes, that has gotten me in the past as well.
Another helping video..thanks Chris.. just wanted to note that at 4:00
you are right that the pitch is 2mm also they wrote there mm/revolution
so i guess they meant how many mm we advance in a revolution and it's 8mm
then with 1:1 gear it's given the same number.. but i am just noting the final answer is the same
It is very possible I said it wrong. :)
Thanks for an excellent explanation on the various calculations involved with the various types of rods.
As for the couplers, with the “standard” springy one, to reduce the springiness, put a ball bearing in between the rod and stepper shaft, no gap, and tightened with the coupler slightly stretched.
Thanks! That a good tip with the ball bearing, I might have to give that a try.
I accidentally ordered a 2mm 1 start lead screw for a printer upgrade recently, based on the thought that 2mm per rotation would be more accurate on the Z axis than an 8mm per rotation. Thanks for confirming this, I'm actually glad that I ordered the 2mm lead screw over the 8mm one that I have on another machine :)
I'm glad this was helpful!
Thanks for the support. Daniel and me where shocked to see you talk about him.Thank you once again.
You guys do good work! I thought it was an interesting conversation, so I thought I would make a video.
I switched from anti backlash brass nuts to POM acetal nuts. they do need bit of work (spinning them trough the rod like 5-6 times for me) to get smooth and always have a bit more friction but LIKE OMFG my prints look freaking injection molded now... it's insane
I recently ordered some from aliexpress so I never run out. I really dig the POM nuts.
Fantastic explanation Chris, it's gonna help a lot of newbies out there (maybe some not-so-newbies too)
When I first started 3D printing, I had a hard time getting my head around the lead screw terminology and definitions.
Thanks Spike! Agreed, it took some reading to figure out what all this stuff meant.
Personal Summary Notes:
- Pitch: distance bet. threads
- Start: separate thread path
- Lead= Pitch x start
- Lead/Steps= linear distance per step
- for system that require faster movement it uses multiple starts, every start acts as single start with high pitch.
- might have more friction and require a more powerful motor to drive them effectively. They could also be more prone to backlash and require higher precision in design and manufacturing to ensure proper alignment.
- single start travel a lot of distance in small pitch, slow put more precision
- Helical type coupler: can move in X & Y axes but also can hop a lil in Z-dir
Looks like you got it!
Well done mate. You explained this very clearly and has helped a lot. Hard to find decent tutorials on this subject but you nailed it.
Thank you! I am glad it was helpful.
This is an excellent video Chris!I'm sure many people haven't considered the step rounding "issue". It will have an impact on high layer-resolution prints. I have my 'specialty' printer build with a 1mm (single start) lead screw for producing 70um layers needed for some of my customers. Produces silky smooth layers especially noticeable on top curved surfaces.
Thanks for watching! That sounds like an awesome build.
I initially built my version of Dolly with 5/16" threaded rod. A few months ago, I swapped them out for 8mm lead screws. I can't tell any obvious difference in the print quality, although the printer in general seems a tad quieter. Another worthwhile upgrade is to change out the heated bed mosfet on the ramps board with a logic level mosfet such as a IRLB8743. The original mosfet on the ramps board was too hot to touch while printing. The replacement is barely above room temperature.
Agreed, those mosfets are junk, I have burned up 3 or 4 of them now. I am currently using a ramps 1.6 shield that has a little different type on it. So far so good.
I just recently replaced the 5mm threaded rod on my Printrbot Smalls to an 8mm 4-start lead screw and now I wish I would have seen this before: I'm quite sure I entered 1600 steps/mm on the Z. So, better double-check that! Thank you Chris for the once again very informational and yet entertaining vid! Cheers man!
Thanks for watching! Ha, yeah you better double check that one, it might give you some issues. ;)
Tip from a guy that got a TR8 screw set for his cheap i3 clone and calibrated his printer for them: You can manually find the Z steps if you don't run the calculations seen in this vid with a great deal of accuracy dependant on how accurate your tools are. I did the same steps/mm calculation that you would use for E-steps and used a caliper to get a measurement. You should, for the sake of repeatability move the Z axis, measure, calculate, program, home, set to 100mm, measure, if it's within .005 to 0.01mm of 100mm you should be good for fine detail prints. If you want the extra granularity for whatever reason (maybe you have OCD for accurate Z height or you do very fine detail small prints) you can keep re-calculating until you eventually get a steps/mm value that gets you as close to exactly 100mm.
All great tips. Thanks for the comment. It seems lead screws very greatly from seller to seller.
Very nice Chris another fantastic video easy to understand and made supper for those of us who don’t do this very often.
Thanks David, I thought it was at least interesting to think about.
Nice presentation. Always cracked me up when people would argue that your layer height doesn't matter with micro stepping. Don't see it as much anymore. Always better to work with the hardware instead of trying to force to do what you want.
Thanks! Totally agree with you. Closer to the hardware the better.
Great Job Chris!
I tried to explain the lead screws info in my "Need for lead" video.
Also the single start gives your Z Motor 4 times the torq.
I wish I could have presented if half as well as you..
Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the kind words, I also missed a point in there I wanted to make about single starts. It's almost impossible to back feed them, so continuous voltage on those steppers can be much less. Thanks for watching!
ok so incase anyone aside from me was wondering if your old nut will work on a single start lead screw it won't I had a T8 4 start lead screw with an anti-backlash nut that I had to modify by grinding it (was for an ender 2) then bought a T8 1 start lead screw and it won't thread luckily the seller provided a nut I'm just going to have to grind it down to fit the ender 2
You mean 4 starts versus 1 start nuts being compatible? You are correct, they are very different profiles. Thanks for posting the info for others.
Great video!
I found the Spider connectors caused a lot of binding because the threaded rod would not align with the motor shaft and cause the threaded rod to wobble back and forth. I'm also a big fan of Anti-backlash nuts on the z threaded rod as often there is some play in those nuts and that keeps the layer height very consistent.
I have found the spiders do have to be set just right to work well. The others are a little more forgiving. On the 4 start screws you are correct, the nuts can have a little play when they are technically already pre loaded gravity. The singles are almost impossible to back feed, so the seem more stable. Thanks for the comment and watching!
So I f I wanna make Prices cnc milling machine , it's good to choose single thread instead of 4 starting thread ?
What makes diffrence ? , can we compensate this variation of linear motion per revolution per steps , in Cnc Program?
Or any type Of starting thread can be used ?
You can use any thread and change it up in the firmware. All the different profiles I show in this video are going to be MORE than accurate enough for the machine.
Nice video again!
Went thru this theoretical research as well, but you presented it better than what I've found anywhere else (and what I'd be able to).
Thanks a lot!
Thanks man, always appreciated.
Man, your videos are helping me a lot while i fighting with my diy prusa MK2 clone. Keep the goog work and thanks for being so clear on your explanations. Grettings from Argentina!
Awesome, I am glad the videos are helpful.
should the stepper shaft and leadscrew rod butt together against the spidercoupler's plastic 'spider' ?
Yes, just let them ride on the plastic.
ok this maybe a stupid question but now I want to get single start lead screws for all my printers but after looking around I can't find any with anti backlash nuts as long as I buy the T8s with the 2mm pitch can I still use the same anti backlash nuts that work on the 4 start lead screws?
You can, but that is kind of a farce. Those nuts are pre loaded if the motor is on the bottom. With single start you shouldn't have any issue where antibacklase will be needed.
@@ChrisRiley ok thanks for getting back so fast I saw a jump in quality way back when I started 3d printing with my robo R1 and I've been buying them for every other printer since I kinda wish I found your channel earlier but I'm really enjoying your videos if your ever in Alaska I'd love to grab a drink with you
@@cityhunterinak ha, I was in Alaska a couple years ago. I love it there. I'll let you know when I get back.
Finally I understand everything about lead screws. Thank you very much.
Lol, probably more than you want to know. 🙂
@@ChrisRiley 😂 not at all. It was very interesting. Im installing a dual Z in my printer and now I understand the differences I see on the various Lead Screws available for purchase. Thank you for sharing the knowledge. 🙏
Do the spider couplers offer more accuracy than solid couplers? Is the benefit just vibration reduction or do you actually lose or gain accuracy switching from solid couplers to spider couplers?
Both types have there draw backs, but one over the other shouldn't impact your accuracy. As long as your Z smooth rods are aligned and well seated either one should be just fine.
Hmm this bring up some ideas in slic3r settings for my Prusa mk3. That is a 8mm x2mm pitch x 8mm lead from what i read in their forums. Going by that a step is 0.04mm so I should set layer heights to multiples of that. 0.12, 0.16, 0.20, and 0.24 should be the height option for slicing to give no rounding inacuracies. Gota wonder why they give 05,10,15,20 as the preconfigured height settings in slic3r PE.
I have had those same thoughts. I mostly print at .2mm, but I kind of wonder why tr8x8 became the go to profile. Maybe they were easier to get? They are faster, but other than homing and leveling you really got no benefit from the speed.
Fortunately, you run at 1/16 microstepping, so you can divide your calculations by 16 and enjoy the sweet resolution :) Keep it at multiples of 0.0025 and you should be fine :)
@@olorf Agreed, microstepping is a wonderful magical thing. :)
Chris Riley I think you may find hackaday.com/2016/08/29/how-accurate-is-microstepping-really/ interesting.
I don't know what load a typical Z axis imposes so I don't know if microstepping actually works as expected.
I am thinking of replacing my steeper with a 400 step/rev rather than replacing the 8mm lead leadscrew.
DennisFisherUK VERY interesting! Thanks for the link. I have read a lot of white papers on this and there are many in's and out's to this whole mess.
Replacing the squeaky 5mm z rods is the very next change in my i3 mk2 "dolly". Perfect timing Chris, now I know exactly what to expect! Great video! Thanks!
It's working for me very well so far, thanks for watching!
Just wanted to say Chris, since I've gotten into 3d printing, I had no clue what anyone was saying about layer height, and many other terms you mentioned. I had no idea on lead screws and how it related to micro stepping and layer heights on your prints. With this video now it all makes all sense and now I am actually noticing a difference on both my Ender 3 and Ender 5 printers that I had two different lead screws on each one! On on my Ender 3 I have a 4 start and my Ender 5 I have a 2 start! So both of my printers have different layer height multiples (0.04 and 0.02)! I thought they were all the same! Thanks to your video this def clears up a lot.
Is there a benefit of using a 4, 2, or even a 1 start? Is there a difference in quality and or how the stepper motor can handle the layers?
Glad it helped! Now a days, there isn't a lot of difference since the drivers and microstepping is so good. Technically on paper single start would make your layer fall closer to full or half steps, which again, on paper, would be better. Can you see it on the print? Probably not.
Hi Chris, great video, im really enjoying your series. I have learned a lot from you over the last few weeks in building my first printer. but im wondering about your calculations when you say about "whatever micro stepping"
I have ran the calculations and i see once you go to 1/4 or above micro stepping, the layer heights do not need rounding for an 8mm lead screw with a 2mm pitch and 200 rev stepper. unless ive got my sums wrong.
in the below, the figures under 2mm and 8mm are the steps required to achieve the layer height.
1/4 Micro stepping
LH 2mm 8mm
0.1 40 10
0.15 60 15
0.2 80 20
0.25 100 25
0.3 120 30
0.35 140 35
0.4 160 40
1/8 Micro stepping
LH 2mm 8mm
0.1 80 20
0.15 120 30
0.2 160 40
0.25 200 50
0.3 240 60
0.35 280 70
0.4 320 80
1/16 Micro stepping
LH 2mm 8mm
0.1 160 40
0.15 240 60
0.2 320 80
0.25 400 100
0.3 480 120
0.35 560 140
0.4 640 160
Taking an example from your figures at 2:08.
LH NO MS 1/4 MS 1/8 MS
0.15 3.75 15 30
0.3 7.5 30 60
0.45 11.25 45 90
Using the standard 200 steps steppers, 8mm lead, 2mm pitch. once you go to 1/4 micro stepping, you are getting 0.01mm resolution per step. so any layer height can be achieved. i know there are disadvantages of micro stepping. But if you can over come them, would you still consider an 8mm lead screw has a disadvantage over a 2mm lead screw.
Thank you for this comment, I don't make some of the statements in this video very clear and I apologize for that. In the video I am suggesting that if you stay on the full step and don't land on the micro step your accuracy will always be higher. How much high, a very very small amount. Micro stepping for the most part works great, but on the micro level it will never be as accurate as the stater. Hopefully that helps!
@@ChrisRiley Hey, yes, that helps a lot. i need to make a choice. 2mm lead for accuracy, vs 8mm lead for speed. i will get both and try.
@@paulrobinson270 I really like the single start, but you have to have some patients their speed is a little painful.
If you go all the way to the top, do you still bottom out, or do you top out? 🤔
hmmmmm....indeed.
Chris, should I switch out my x,y belt system to t8x2 screw? And my z have t8,8lead-2p-4start also wanted to switch it to t8x2 1start
I don't think you would gain a whole lot converting to screws over belts. On Z they are nice, but they are super slow.
I'm a huge fan of Oldham couplers, rather than those plum ones. But that requires to support the rods on a bearing.
Nice! I have never even seen these types before.
You could actually print some before getting the real thing : www.thingiverse.com/thing:2538792
After a year of use the PLA ones just begin to get some slack.
Here are actual ones www.aliexpress.com/item/-/32878380864.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.1ee02e0en7BhS8
Sweet! Thanks for the links, I will try it out.
Chris Riley or ya can go this route: www.thingiverse.com/thing:3098752
should be able to continue to use the z couple you got & switch back to the brass nut.
Had to rewatch it to explain the number of steps per revolution in a fb group. 2020 still relevant, thanks from Argentina Chris!
Thanks!
Any chance you can share the STL for the Z screw nut? I can't seem to find one that works with a T8x2 with a single start
I have looked everywhere to try and find this again and can't. I will see if I can find time to make one.
@@ChrisRiley i would greatly appreciate it if you could. I spent days searching for one that would work.
400mm rod, 8mm dia, 4 start....to reach 0 to 400mm how many rotation should motor rotate?
I feel like this is a pop quiz, LOL, so 8mm per turn, 400mm that is 50 turns.
Think this would be worth upgrading on a CR-10? Thought about adding dual lead screws with the lead screws discussed in your video.
Can't hurt anything but single starts are super slow.
With a Tr8*2 lead screw, how would the torque change at the same steps/s and at the same mm/s? (Let's say 4mm/s with a Tr8*8 lead screw)
Should I run it on the same steps/s, or is it safe to run it on the same mm/s, with an Ender 3 default Z motor, for the sake of the motor and the motor driver (SKR Mini, TMC2209)?
I don't have a Tr8*2 lead screw yet, so I'm just gathering information.
I think I answered this, but the the ender 3 motor is pretty small, it might not have enough torque to turn the finer pitched lead screw.
Hi Chris, So ive got a question I'm wondering if you can help me with, I'm looking at changing my ender 3 to a Tr8x2 after watching this video, but almost every search term I try throw at Google I don't get a concrete response to, So my question is, I notice the lead nut looks completely different has 4 screw holes, do they match up so I can just screw 2 in? If not is there a lead nut that I can buy that Google isn't showing me? cheers in advance!
Hey Grant, tr8x2 will be a different nut and they are going to be really hard to find in the ender 3 style. Probably have to find some to machine one down to fit.
@@ChrisRiley gotcha, well for the Time I think I'm out of luck and patience, me thinks I should do more reading another day.
Chris, very well explained. You took a potentially confusing subject and made it straight forward and easy to understand. Good job.
BTW< do you plan on launching a second channel or covering CNC as I have seen on another channel? Just curious. Tom
Thanks Thomas, at some point I would like to get into CNC, just not enough time for all the projects. :)
@@ChrisRiley Tell me about it. I will consider myself lucky if I complete a fraction of what I have in mind.
A bit late, but where did you find the 8x2 nut design? Can't find it anywhere
Here they are. www.thingiverse.com/thing:2674393
@@ChrisRiley thanks
also acetal (POM) nuts are amazing! Personally switching to them improved my ancyubic i3-mega's print quality. original prusa printers use those! just not the anti-backlash portion which isn't that necessary. they technically need no lubrication either. but those nylon-pla printed ones are just as good honestly. tho a few of them broke on my corexy cause the z axis is very heavy :D
also you can use spring couples without the side effects if you put an 8mm steel ball inside the coupler. just drop it in. screw the motor shaft and while you screw the top rod just pull it slightly upwards and tighten it.
Totally agree with you, I put POM nuts on pretty much everything now a days. I wish I could get some TR8x2 nuts.
Excellent video!
Any idea what leas screws the sidewinder x1 uses?
I know it is T8 but not sure of start,and pitch.
Any help apreciated!
That is a TR8x8 so 4 starts 2mm pitch.
Thank you!
Appreciate the response and the videos!
I bought (6) x2 and (3) x1 but as is and need work but could not find info
ARTILERY was not much help with part spec and part info.
Have a few bad lead screws but wanted to go longer to 800mm. Or 1000mm and go double on bed size just for fun/learning. (New to 3d printing) Online sellers for the x1 x2 lead screw did not have spec info.
I watched your video several times but still was not sure what I was seeing.
Thanks again!
Chris, thanks for a great informational video....it helped me to figure out a problem I was having!
Glad to hear that! Thanks for the comment.
hi Chris, i own a Tronxy x5sa Pro with the oem board. If i want to go with a ball screw arrangement, would there be an off the shelf swap with the original screws? i.e. no firmware mod's. If firmware mod's are required, would it be difficult to work out? (fyi, i have a duet 2 wifi on it's way from china). cheers Tony.
Ballscrew have a much less agressive thread than what you have, so you will have to change your Z steps. You can do that with the M92 Z command.
@@ChrisRiley thanks for your reply. its just that even with anti-back lash nuts my bed moves out of tolerance after 2 prints. I got all the corners stiffened. Last solutions i think are ball screws or delrim nuts. Maybe look at linear rail combined with T8 screws? runnning out of solutions....
@@tonypetroski216 Are you sure it's not the Z endstop not being accurate causing you problems?
Very nice and well researched.
Thanks James, only problem is those tr8x2's are hard to get a hold of.
Chris Riley True though ebay is usually got a few floating around.
Yep! That's where I got these, I have had them for years, just got around to using them.
For those magic numbers, your bed would have to be level at the perfect spot at the start of a step on the motor. Have done many quality tests , and these multiples don't seem to change anything for me
You have to take into account fade height as well. The effects of leveling are only applied for a certain amount of layers.
It sucks, all the 1 start lead screws i found have to be shipped from China, so any bent ones are gonna be a pain to send back. Why is it only the 4 start available to ship in 2 to 3 days???
I don't know man, I have the same problem.
hi. thanks, what is max feedrate ? 7:13
Thanks.
I wouldn't go over 12 on any lead screw.
Just print at multiples of 0.04?
Yes, that's how the math works out on a TR8x8
Hi there, I know this video is old but did you use Lead screws
Which lead screws are you referring to?
1 question , i bought th e2 mm lead screw , can i use them in a cnc for pcb? will th enema 17 be able to handle the 1600 E steps?
Not sure what you mean E2 mm? Yes, the single start works well with a nema 17.
@@ChrisRiley i mean using them for a cnc , will it work?
@@TnInventor It should, they are just very slow.
@@ChrisRiley i will use 8 mm pitch then , thanks man
Thanks! Lead screws and coupler info is hard to find.
Glad it helped!
If the original lead screw needs the motor to make 3.75 full steps for 0.15 layer height, but the motor is set for 16x microstepping, why can't the motor simply take 3.75x16=60 micro steps? There might be some layer heights that won't match neatly with the steps available, but it seems that the common ones would work just fine.
The idea was to land on a full or half step as much as you can, really it doesn't matter that much at all now a days.
Hello Friend,
I need your help to make some key decisions. I am making a large size 3d printer CoreXY type, bed will not move, size - 2300*1500*1500mm (X Y Z).
Due to the large size of x & y, I have two options, one is to use large width belt 10mm, another solution is a ball screw.
We don't have to compromise in speed and quality, so please guide according to your experience.
In the view of the ball screw, I don't have experience of use of a ball screw, so there is doubt on the backlash problem in the ball screw. So please guide that, Have you observed backlash effect in ball screw, if yes than please guide on how to fix this problem.
Please discuss in the view of ball screw SFU1610 for X & Y axis.
Also guide, ball screw SFU1605 is better or lead screw for Z axis.
In lead screws, we eliminate backlash effects by using anti backlash spring nuts. Same way is there any way to properly eliminate backlash in Ball Screw.
You can also suggest your ideas for a large size printer.
Please reply
There are a lot of things to consider when making a printer this large. The large it gets the problems you see get made larger as well. You need to make sure it is very sturdy. Ball screws are going to be much more accurate than a lead screw. The ball screw will have much lower backlash by design.
Is it faster than regular belt 3d printers?
I would say lead screws are a bit slower.
@@ChrisRiley thanks for the reply. What if someone's making a huge printer...approx 2m cube build volume...then belts or lead screws?
@@ShubhamGupta-xb1om That's hard to say, belts get very slack at long distance, but longer lead screws that are strait are hard to get. I guess I would go with wider belts for a larger machine.
Little herb Alpert never hurts
🙂👍
Any recommendations on high quality lead screws?
I'm looking for ball screw style nuts, too
Misumi has really nice stuff, us.misumi-ec.com/ check openbuilds as well, there stuff is nice for the money.
@@ChrisRiley openbuilds products don't list an accuracy. I was hoping for at least C7 grade, so it would be difficult to purchase something that I don't know what I'm going to get.
The link leads to a place that doesn't sell anything larger than about 250mm, and I need 520mm for my z axis.
@@garybarbourii8274 I have been looking around, I really can find a lot of high end sellers. I will ask some others.
@@ChrisRiley I'm about to roll the dice on one of the alibaba sources claiming C7 grade accuracy
Ok. I have a question about your math. You say the printer cannot achieve a perfect layer at .15mm layer height at 200 steps per millimeter. I agree. But they you say it can't do that no matter what the micro-stepping is. Most printers do 16 micro steps. Which gives you 0.0025mm per microstep. 8mm/(200steps * 16microsteps)=0.0025.
Layer height of .15 = 60 microsteps (0.15 / 0.0025 = 60). Layer height of .1 = 40 microsteps (0.10 / 0.0025 = 40)
So actually, in Marlin with a 8mm dia rod, with 4 starts, 2mm pitch and 8mm travel per revolution, you would enter 400 for the steps per mm - as I have on my Hypercube with 16microstepping enabled on the mainboard. Again, that works out to 0.0025mm per microstep with 60 microsteps per .15mm and 40 microsteps per 0.1mm. Even at .01mm that still exactly 4 microsteps (not accounting for MIN_STEPS_PER_SEGMENT)
Take your default steps per unit with your old 5mm rods of 4000. That 4000 steps per mm = 0.00025mm per step. .15 layer height = 600 steps.
So, yes, if your drivers only did full steps, this would make a big difference. But then, you'd be entering 100 for steps/mm in Marlin and not 1600
Did I miss something?
I apologize, I didn't state that as well as I should have. The issue that you would see throws micro stepping out the window basically. I think I said "no matter what your micro stepping" or something like that, which now a days I see 256 stepping a lot, which is crazy to me.
You are correct, take 1/16 stepping the math works out. The layer height issue you would see is because the logic doing the micro stepping will never be able to match that exact step amount. Don't get me wrong, it is really good at what it does and getting better all the time. I have seen these crazy micro layer stacking issues caused by it. So staying close to the multiple of the whole step value should achieve better results.
Again, a VERY minor improvement, I really made the video as more of a "think about this" than anything else.
most 256usteps (all that i have seen anyway) is not driven with 256 usteps from the controller most of the tmc is run like it had 16 usteps, then the motor driver converts it 256 usteps internaly. So you will always move 1/16th of a step. the ressons for more steps internaly is to have the motor run smoothley and quiet
Why are you running microstepping on the Z axis? You should be running full steps to keep the Z height as stable as possible.
Microstepping lessens the torque and although the resolution increases the accuracy remains the same for the one step which means the percentage of error increases as the step degree decrease so multiply the number of possible error(accuracy) by the number of steps you will find that the total error per revolution increases drastically when increasing the microstepping resolution, to over come this point you need to decrease the speed (pulses per motor phase still the same but the time for the pulses should increase ie: operate at low fequency :D ) to allow the coils to be well energized to give enough torque, but thats donot mean that when lessens the speed you can get the 100% torque of the full step!
Microstepping is no magic, just a tool need to be used in right time and place
Always love Chris's videos esp the Superman speed breakdown/rebuilds but it's also excellent that people who understand the maths can explain microstepping too. It's really good to read this information written down & have it's significance also explained, so THANKS for adding your knowledge.
Hey Chris. Love your work and have felt empowered to try upgrading my printer. I bought some T8x2 with one start, updated my printer to the 3.0.0 and got a successful test print. I switched out the lead screws and updated the firmware but when I went to test it the z axis only went up a fraction of the max height. Any ideas?
Thanks! Yes, you need to update your Z steps. You can run a M92 Z1600
Hi Chris, I am learning quite a bit from your youtube videos. Thank you! I am having trouble with the first 5 layers on my print. I have a TR8x8 z axis lead screw. The first layer height is 0.2 and the layer height afterwars is 0.16. Should work, right. But the first few layers are too close and there is alot rough patches in those layers. Any advice??/
Awesome to hear! It could be backlash in your gantry. Sometime on certain printers, the first couple of turns on the Z aren't as efficient as they should be because to droop from the X gantry. Sometimes anti backlash nuts can help, or just snugging up the gantry so it's more efficient.
@@ChrisRiley Yes that has been my problem from the get go! I will find a solution! And thank you, again!!!
Thank you very much for the video. Definitely a good bit of knowledge for the printer design I'm tinkering with. A quick question though as I'm leaning toward ball screws instead of the more common lead. Would this vid's info transfer 1-1 for both lead and ball screw set ups or would you foresee it to be a good bit of difference between one and the other?
It should be pretty much the same between the two. I don't know that you gain a lot from the ball screw unless your design is massive. I think it should work just fine either way.
Chris Riley Was leaning toward ball screws due to the lower wear over time, higher overall load capacities, and higher general top speeds from what I've researched. The math for both was just in general driving me up a wall and your video made it just make sense. The main odd difference I'd like to attempt on the printer is a 100% non-moving bed. Concept wise that I'd like to try to do is to try and make a Core XY with that gantry set up on dual z with quad rails/guides along the corners of the printer.
Hopefully this will work, here's a link to a pic of a rough sketch/concept I was trying in Fusion360.
pbs.twimg.com/media/Dkhp60EVAAAGuRU.jpg
At least that's the thought so far anyway. If it works, Sweet, if not, well this machine is being made to be a machine I can tinker around with and add/remove components.
RasielD It looks like it will be good times man. I hope it goes well.
Hi Chris have a question for you.
I have a modixbig60 prints 600 in all axis.
If I print a part with a height of 5mm it comes out about 5.3mm
Extrusion steps good but now I'm looking at the steps for my z axis..right now HMI says 2000. In which way should I adjust the steps to compensate for the increased travel.
ThankYou
You would adjust it down to decrease the amount of steps per revolution.
@@ChrisRiley So basically on the controller screen the 2000 is steps per revolution? Thankyou so much for your response.
I don't know that printer but my guess is yes.
What main board are you using Chris?
On this one, its a Arduino Mega 2560 and a ramps 1.6 shield.
@@ChrisRiley awesome. Are you on IG?
No I am not, TH-cam is currently all I do.
@@ChrisRiley wanna show you what I'm working on. Some cool projects!
You can email me at brotherchris81@gmail.com
It's 400 steps per mm for a 4 start rod right? And you had 4 starts on the printer originally? But your steps per mm was 4000 before you went to 1600.
I actually had 5mm threaded rod before this upgrade. Your numbers are correct.
@@ChrisRiley ah OK, makes sense then. Love your videos. You explain a lot of things very well that most the big 3d printing TH-camrs don't even really talk about.
@@neilsiebenthal8696 Thanks Neil!
Examples? Can we have a look?
Examples? What would you like to see?
Hi Chris, would’ve this be a viable upgrade to make an ender 3?
Meh, I don't think it would really help you much, maybe a little.
Another great tutorial! more info for my build project
Thanks and thanks for watching!
In other words, if the pitch is same, just divide the previous thread from the current thread and multiply the firmware value from it :D
You and your maths! ;)
Chris, I came across your video and was impressed with the way you explained the various parts as well as the important points. May I ask you for your help. I am looking for a catalogue that lists the various parts that go to make printers or other similar equipment. If you could provide name(s) and websites I shall be most grateful. Thank you in advance.
Hey Harry, I wish there was a more direct way of finding a lot of these parts. We are pretty much left with catalogs to get a lot of this done. Zyltech is pretty good about laying it out. www.zyltech.com/ Also, for something like a Prusa, check out the links in the BOM I created. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AKX1dBssPeFiCTYAHjYHZiUIhAR5COqE82Bq8tjKFSE/edit?usp=sharing
Excellent info Chris! Thanks.
Thanks Ron!
I'd love to see how you got by with a threaded rod everyone tells me it can't be done
Threaded rod, it works okay, not the greatest. I have used it a handful of times.
@@ChrisRileyare there directions anywhere everywhere I look they basically say it won't work don't try it
@@amelliamendel2227 There are really no directions, you can use them if you put the right numbers in the firmware.
Awesome bro!
Always good videos
Thanks Mark!
I don't understand why the flexible couplers? A good tech, (like you) can achieve true square top to bottom.
The coupler is more to compensate for quality of parts. Although the lead screws we get now are much better than even 4 years ago.
@@ChrisRiley I see! How do you say your new to the hobby without "saying your new to the hobby". Thanks for all you do! Your style and content is the best.
Thaaaaaaaanks so much for that simple explanation in the beginning, now it all makes sense. :)
You are very welcome, thanks for watching!
Nice video, just one thing:
Single start lead screw has smaller load capacity then 4 starts lead screw..
Thanks! Good point.
We're talking about 3d printer x axis load here though. The nut can take 1250 pounds before it gives. I think we're OK with single starts load capacity
@@neilsiebenthal8696 Very true.
Where did you get those leadscrews from?
About the only place I can find the different sizes are on ebay. I really don't know of a good seller, but I have bought from a couple of them and they seem to work well.
I've been trying to build a pizza printer. I'm wondering if I should go with zz screws, or za screws? :D
Ha! Creative, I like it!
Hello my friends. I don't have much experience for building my 3d printer.
I have a few questions. I know that if the BED of the 3d printer moves in the vertical direction and its weight is high, if power will be cut off and the lead screw is not suitable, there is a possibility of it falling and you cannot continue printing after the power is connected Or it will be very difficult to continue printing.
I have designed a printer that I will tell you about and I would appreciate it if you could help me with the questions I have.
Bed size: aluminum 50x50x0.6cm with a glass on top. This bed only move in Y axis.
1- Can 1 nema 17 (4.4kg/cm) with GT2 pulley with 6mm belt move this Bed in Y axis without any problem? You probably tell me that it depends on the bed weight. And my question is, what should be the weight of this bed? so that 1 nema 17 (4.4kg/cm) can move it horizontally?
2- The accuracy in the Z direction is very important for us. and for this reason, I chose this lead screw: (( D= 8mm/ lead= 1mm/ Pitch = 1mm/ 1 start )) and the driver is DRV8825 which has a 1/32 microstep. My extruder is indirect and only E3d-v6 attach to x axix and I attach MK8 filament driver to Structure and moving filament with PTFE pipe 4-2mm.
With these conditions, if the power is cut off, the X-axis will not fall in the vertical direction if I use this lead screw? I used two lead screws with these specifications in the vertical direction.
Please guide me so that I don't go the wrong way and buy the wrong parts.
The first question is hard to answer. There will be some trial and error. NEMA 17's can move a lot of weight, but the more weight, the slower you will have to go.
The second question, if you are using single starts like you say, you will have no issues with backfeeding.
Hello Chris, great video! Where did you get your couplers and rods from? I want to upgrade the ones on my Anet... :)
I was going to post some links, but those TR8x2 rods are hard to find. I am not sure how long you need for the A8, but give these a look.
Couplers:
Amazon:
www.amazon.com/Aluminium-Flexible-Coupling-Connector-Coupler/dp/B01CWMGUDY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1537985231&sr=8-4&keywords=3d+printer+coupler
Aliexpress:
www.aliexpress.com/store/product/D20L25-jaw-flexible-motor-coupling-aluminium-CNC-spider-flexible-jaw-coupler-5x8mm-3mm-4mm-5mm-6mm/1949652_32875281411.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10065_10068_10130_5726815_10547_10546_10059_10884_10548_315_10545_10887_10696_100031_531_10084_10083_5726915_10103_10618_10307_449,searchweb201603_60,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&algo_expid=83e0862f-2ec3-451e-9b4a-a9c10db4a12f-1&algo_pvid=83e0862f-2ec3-451e-9b4a-a9c10db4a12f&priceBeautifyAB=0
Lead screws, I have never bought from this seller, but it looks like they have 4 and single start screws.
www.ebay.com/itm/T8-Lead-2-8mm-Rod-Stainless-Lead-Screw-Linear-Rail-Bar-100mm-1200mm/173380260628?hash=item285e44d314%3Am%3AmFtiESWKdJ-moCcoGrJGcOw&var=472089195623
6:05 Is that your original music, Chris? Jazzzzzeh!
That one isn't mine, but there are other videos that do have my music on them.
Very helpful thank you very much.
Thanks for watching!
Hi, i thinking about the Leadscrews In my Way i put the Motors on Top of the Machine, in the upper Part with a Bearing that give Length Movoment Capability. The Bearing on the Bottom is Radial and axial fix. So can the wobbwlish wobbelmotor with The Coupling Dance around.... I chose the first one of coupler, i think it has better rotational correctnes... Maybee i will try it out. (the best designes you see in the Industry. I have seen such a setup with motors on top and will try it out Best Regards from Germany =)
Thanks for your comment.
Nice. This is going to be very helpful in the near future. :)
Thanks for watching Glenn.
That's 0.04 mm per FULL step right? I assume you run at 1/16 microstepping, so each microstep should move your z by 0.0025 mm?
400 (micro)steps per mm kind of explains it clearly :)
That is correct, 0.04mm per full step. Good point, I like 400 microsteps better.
Another great video. Thanks!
Thanks and thanks for watching!
T8x8 binds to no ends vs T8x2, with everything straight and new.
Get high precision 0.9 degree or 400 step motors from ZYLTech in Texas. Ships fast and cheap from USA.
Thanks!
So where can I get these lead screws? Closest I found was on Mcmaster-Carr but not with 1 start. Are all motors 200 steps per revolution?
It depends how long. www.zyltech.com/8mm-t8x2-trapezoidal-acme-lead-screw-w-brass-nut-custom-length-up-to-1000mm/
I just upgraded my lead screw (www.amazon.com/ReliaBot-150mm-Thread-Printer-Machine/dp/B07QXYVW8R/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8) on my ender 5 pro. I changed the steps to 1600 and the federate to 3 (It was at 20, not sure why), and when I try to home the printer, the coupler spins quite a bit, and the axis moves some, and then it makes quite a loud whining like noise (coming from the z stepper motor I assume). all the motors and such are stock so I am not sure what I am missing, not entering in correctly....any ideas?
I would put the feedrate back to 3. It's probably just moving to fast binding the lead screw.
Yep, that worked, I dropped it to 2, and it’s really slow, so I tried up to 5 and it seems to be working well. Thanks for the info
Thanks so much for breaking the math down so well. I would have never figured any of this out on my own and it's very relevant to me as I'm now buying parts to upgrade my ancient robo 3d r1.
The 4 start 8mm lead screws certainly are the most popular/readily available on amazon. In my case I've only ever printed at 0.2 layer height so I can see how grabbing these and moving on with my life would be perfectly fine.
But your point about achieving any layer height within two decimal places, for the single start lead screws, was an important take away.
I didn't really understand some of the math, so I took what you explained at different points in the video and tried to lay it all out in one shot in a spreadsheet. I've shared it publicly for anyone who wants to study it. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KFYwtGOEPqN6q9QY-LbsYkHjHQ_yWnzOfWCUha9THWI/edit?usp=sharing
Very nice! Great way to lay it out. That makes a lot more since.
Great information Thanks
Thank you
And the end result is the same as before. Well done. You can pour a ton of money to your FDM printer and it will not improve the print quality that much.
This is true.
Nice Job...
Thanks Mike!
Dude, I love the info from your video, but you either need a bit more light, or a better camera. It's blurry.
I know, it's all I can do at the moment. Maybe some day I can upgrade.
but it's a basement it fits the feel IMO
I love log prusa.
Thank you, he's a good printer. ;)
Thank you
Thank you for watching!
You never got a thumbs down. What's the reason? Thumbs up lol
They day is still early, I am sure we'll see a few. ;)
Cool
Thanks Larry!
Long Live LOG!
LOG's getting all fancy and stuff!
15 minutes off a benchie because of Z-feedrate? Impossiburu...
That would be some serious Z feed rate. :)