How Would Vito Handle Fredo's Betrayal? | The Godfather Explained
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 เม.ย. 2022
- BECOME A MEMBER: / @cineranter
SUPPORT THE CHANNEL ON PATREON: www.patreon.com/user?u=8580945
FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER: / cineranter
FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM: / cineranter1
FOLLOW ME ON TIKTOK: / cineranter
In Francis Ford Coppola’s The Godfather, we follow Don Vito Corleone, the head of one of the powerful 5 New York crime families, as he looks to protect his family from all harm. With him growing older and sicker, he transfers control of his dynasty to his son Michael Corleone, who succeeds his father and builds on his work, cementing control over the entire New York underworld and then moving on to expand the empire with casino ventures in Nevada and in Cuba.
Michael killing his own brother Fredo is the most shocking event in The Godfather Part II, a completely stunning act of merciless coldness. What I wanted to discuss today is an interesting hypothetic situation. And that is, what if Fredo’s betrayal had occurred under Vito Corleone, while he was in charge of the family? How would he handle Fredo’s betrayal? How would he punish him? Would he murder his own son? - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Regarding Sonny, I think he would have given Fredo a beating like he did to Carlo but no way he would have killed him. In the book, they explained that Sonny had a big heart which doesn’t get portrayed in the movie as clearly. Sonny is more like Vito when it comes to family and Michael is more like Vito in smarts.
That's a pretty good point.
One can however argue that Fredo never would have considered doublecrossing Sonny, he was the elder brother. Fredo was looking to the old ways and by that right HE should have been in charge (and that's what Roth and Ola prayed upon when recruiting him). He felt emasculated by the fact that he was "taken care of" by his younger brother.
By that logic: He would have been much more accepting of his role and stature as some club owner with no real power, other than having a direct line to the Don (his brother).
@@Mukation Don’t disagree with anything you said. Great points
@@Mukation what Fredo did was business Micheal couldn't handle it
💯 on this one! Sonny would’ve kicked 50 shades of shit out of him and put the fear of death in him if he tried it again.
That last shot in Godfather II is briliant, his face is half lit half shadow showing that he has truly changed from the war hero Christmas shopping with Kay and gone to the darkside
Vito would have send Fredo away to Italy and would warn him to never come back.
i agree
That's Probably the best Option cause Hypothetically if Fredo for some reason or anotha Turned on his Father, He could just keep him at a Distance Vs Whacking him which would kill Vito Internally to have to kill 1 of his Son's.
@@Frosty98206 I think it internally killed Michael
send him to Australia work as a fruit picker and sheep shearer!
Don Corleone would've made sure Fredo never came back to the States and made sure he was Always watched in Italy.
Vito would have sent Fredo into exile or just cut him off from the family business. As to Michael killing Fredo I disagree strongly that it was a "cold" act. Michael showed MANY times that he was incapable of forgiving transgression against himself and resorted to murder when it wasn't necessary. The tag line " it's nothing personal, its just business" was meant to be ironic. it was ALWAYS personal to Michael.
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" was one of Vito's rules. He'd keep his traitorous son close so he could keep an eye on him, and would've explicitly forbidden Michael or Sonny from ever harming Fredo.
Vito would have fredo eliminated, if he was any kind of self respecting Don! You don't get to be "DON" by being nice and soft to anyone, that includes blood relatives! Remember, you take an oath and walk into another world, leaving this one behind, including everyone in it! Any self respecting member of La Cosa Nostra knows this! Let's not turn this into a soap opera!
@@leonardcampos6436 but the thing is, Vito was unlike any other Don... he wouldn't have killed fredo...he would have neutralized him somehow
@@pavelthedog6939 Possibly, I can see that!
It wasn't just Michael who thought like that, he learnt it from Vito. The movie doesn't convey the true meaning of the phrase to Vito and Michael and the context it was said in from the book as it was a ruse to throw off the people around Michael.
"I’m sure you’ve noticed that the phrase “nothing personal - just business” has entered the business lexicon over the years since 1972 when the movie adaptation of Mario Puzo’s 1962 novel The Godfather. Funny thing is, the movie gives you the wrong impression. I’ve read the novel, and Mario Puzo explains that the phrase is not a sentiment with which Don Corleone would agree. In fact in the novel, only Don Vito Corleone (and later, Don Michael Corleone) seem to properly understand the intersection between what is business and what is personal. The movie places the quote on Michael’s lips, but only if you’d read the book would you understand Micheal’s words to be merely intended to placate his brother Sonny and Tom Hagen, who are separating the two in the discussion about their response to the attempted murder of their father. If you only saw the movie, you’d think this was the philosophy espoused by the Don. It isn’t.
Vito Corleone tells his son Michael that it’s never just business. It’s always personal. This view is perhaps what makes him a good Don, and makes Michael a good Don after him."
Let’s remember Michael warned Fredo in part one: “don’t ever go against the family’s business EVER!” There is no surprise that Michael did what he had to do to Fredo.
And Don Vito was still alive, semi retired and serving as Mikes consigliere when he said it.
It wasn't "what he had to do" though. Otherwise, he wouldn't have waited for the death of their mother to do it.
I love how (in the book) Tom Hagen explains about the danger of a turncoat, you could never trust them not to betray you again, putting more than just the one they betray into danger, to Kay. Would’ve been a great scene to do.
gave his brother a fair warning.
Foreshadowing at its finest.
Sonny would've beat Fredo to death in a fit of rage, felt bad about it afterwards and then started an even more destructive war over the betrayal.
i don't think sonny would go that far... only michael is so cautious that he would do such a thing
Fredo might not betray Sonny because he wouldn't be stepped over. Sonny is his older brother.
@@rimamuryantinahutagalung Good point.
I don't think Sonny would have killed Fredo.
He didn’t kill Carlo and he wasn’t even blood. Unless Fredo fought back, then maybe Sonny would not hold back.
I don’t think Vito would have ever had Fredo killed under any circumstances. When Paulie skipped work and Fredo failed to protect his father they made an example of Paulie rather than Fredo. We know Vito thinks only women and children are allowed to make mistakes or whatever it is he said and I think Vito knows that Fredo is a feeble minded manchild, incapable of exercising good judgement like a young child.
They killed Paulie Gatto because Sonny's guy in the telephone company confirmed he'd had calls from Tataglia all the days he'd called in sick.
It was a toss up whether Paulie or Clemenza had sold out the Don, which is why Tessio was brought in to replace Clemenza.
Because of Fredo's failure he was sent to Vegas and did light work, basically a welfare case for Moe Greene. Even when Vito takes over, shortly before he turns responsibility over to Michael leaves in in Vegas. It isn't until Michael moves to Nevada that Michael gives Fredo serious things to do.
Vito would not have given Fredo that much responsibility. Vito knew Fredo was weak and just a womanizer, follower, and weak.
@@patrickfennell6372 Sonny sent Fredo to Vegas to recover and to be away from the fighting.
Why would he blame Fredo for that? He was set up by Paulie. Even if Fredo didn’t drop his gun when he got out of the car, he wouldn’t have been quick enough to stop the shooting.
When you choose to play the mobster game,you leave everything behind, except yourself and those who take the oath! Don't kid yourself, that entire family should be dead except Vito, his wife, and Michael, maybe Clemenza and Tom!
I still believe to this day that Fredo was tricked and really didn't have any idea Michael was going to get hit.
Fredo thought he had the intelligence for "business", but instead, he couldn't see that Johnny Ola and Hyman Roth played him like a fiddle to get to Michael.
As Fredo explained to Michael, he was yearning to do something on his own to prove to everyone that he was smart and that he demanded respect, rather than taking orders and being spoonfed everything. Unfortunately Michael was in too deep already and couldn't see that side, and for that Michael suffered later in life for killing his mothers son.
💯 Same
"Say, Fredo would you mind pulling the curtains so we can get a clear sight into the master bedroom from the outside?" "Sure thing, Johnny Ola! I see no possible way that request could have a sinister intent. You probably just want to see which teddy bear Michael sleeps with at night." Fucking idiot.
He was definatly manipulated by Roth. But the fact is that he was able to be manipulated made him a weak link. A threat. Mike should have been more like Vito and have had him on a shorter leash so he would stay out of trouble.
That’s stupid. Why would my brother be talking to my ops. What the hell do they have to discuss Monday night football 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
As brilliant as Vito was at being the Godfather, he wasn't the best at managing his personal family. He disapproved of his daughter's marriage to Carlo, and decided to punish both by making sure Carlo remained as some low-level associate and in turn having him take out his frustration on Connie. This frustration eventually led to Carlo betraying Sonny and the Corleone family.
Carlo did appear to be more sated once he believed that Michael will be using him as the point-man to expand the family into Nevada.... proving that all he wanted was a chance to prove himself.
Considering how Vito regularly used Fredo in some important situations (part of the meeting with the Turk, being Vito's temp driver, learning entertainment/casino trade, etc).... Vito's weakness was always his own family.
Agreed but not quite. He didn't treat his family properly. He protected his sons and daughter only to the bare minimum, and didn't allow them to flourish due to his own circumstances. Fredo was very good with the hotels in Vegas, and Micheal was a proven soldier during the war while Sonny was a natural leader and born for the family business. Conny's husband should have been given more of a chance and regularly have conversations with Conny's family to keep him in good graces as well as in line.
All Vito did was for his empire, his business. He loved his family but allowed too much pain, then the situation with the assassination attempt put the rest into motion.
Why should the Don give that leech of a son in law any position of power? The Don saw right though him and saw him for the opportunist he was...he betrayed his in laws, abused his wife and set up his brother in law to get killed. The Don had too much of a soft spot for his daughter! He saw the low down animal his daughter was marrying but didn't do anything for his daughter's sake.. he should have had that asshole disappeared . His daughter was young...young hearts recover well most times. He would most likely still have his son!
@@marakalos3838 naw. Sonny was emotional, and made him careless.
@@M0RN1N6_5T4R Although you are correct, Sonny was able to start winning the war. This showed his skill and potential.
However that carelessness got him ambushed, which is exactly correct.
He told Solozzo: My children are my weakness, and I spoil then as you can see. This gave Solozzo the opening he needed and the idea that if he could have Vito killed, then Sonny would have to make the deal with him under his terms.
In some way, Sonny telling Sollozzo what he was thinking about the drug trade was similar to what Fredo did. It’s a betrayal that caused an attempt on Vito’s life similar to Fredo although I don’t think Fredo knew that Roth was trying to kill Michael.
That’s a good point I’ve never thought it about it that way.
Very interesting point
Sonny did that without bad intentions
Yeah Sonny started the whole chain reaction, but it not even close to the same. One was intentional and one was unintentional. Fredo purposely betrayed his brother out of jealousy. Well he's just dumb blah blah, that's no excuse. There's no coming back from that.
@@justinamenta7241 Fredo intentionally gave Hyman Roth info but did he know that they were to use that to try and kill Michael? I can see your point that maybe he should said something to Michael after the attempt was made on his life.
I can understand why Michael had Fredo killed, the mafia life is ruthless. but at the same time i feel bad for Fredo. Fredo was the only one that shook Michael's hand when he said he joined the marines. He seemed proud of his little brother. And the way Fredo hugs Michael at their mothers funeral kills me. Fredo was weak and simple minded but had a good heart, traits not for a made man.
Yea that life wasn't for Fredo. He should of been kept out. He should of got into cooking or some shit. Nothing like great Italian food.
@@dallaswinston4640 Yes, the family should have gotten Fredo into a legitimate business well removed from the family's main business. In the book, the Las Vegas guys who took Fredo in after the assassination attempt asked the Don if he could stay because he "had a genius for running a hotel."
@@dallaswinston4640 That life wasn't for Michael either....Vito even said so, but circumstances dragged Michael into it. To me, Michael failed as a Don. Look at him at the end of Godfather 2.
@@TheKulu42 I recall that as well! Fredo had a mind for business in a hotel, perhaps something else as well but that wasn't tested as far as I remember. Fredo had talent, flaws but talent. It was wasted in the family business sadly, and the results are here before us.
It seems Tom and Sonny where close while Fredo and Michael where close to each other.
Once again, another example of how this is the best Godfather related page on TH-cam. So insightful & has a great mix between theories, as well as analysation from the films, as well as the novels. Please keep up the exceptional work @CineRantee
Thank you
@@CineRanter Your next video would be freaking awesome explaining the mafia in Christopher Nolan’s Batman franchise, and The Batman’s Salvatore Maroni and Carmine Falcone! Maroni in The Batman showed up not once but his presence through dialogue showed extreme power. Him and Falcone
I’ve always felt that Part 2 didn’t really highlight Fredo’s discontent. He was portrayed as a harmless idiot not as someone who had real ambition; We don’t even know the extent of the part he played in the assassination attempt
Right. On this channel, Rocco Lampone has been identified as the likely principal betrayer behind the assassination attempt; Fredo seems to be involved in clandestine discussions with Johnny Ola about replacing Michael, which could easily have been just feelers rather than quid pro quos. Michael has Fredo killed because of his suspicions, and Fredo's acknowledged jealousy, not anything Fredo is seen doing in Godfather 2.
@@billslocum9819 I would say that Fredo’s death sentence actually came about when Michael found out that Fredo let him walk into a trap at the congressional hearings. First, he asked Fredo if he knew anything else from Roth and Fredo said no. By the end of the conversation, he lets Michael know that the Roth has the chairman in his pocket. He never bothered to warn Michael before hand and let Michael walk into a perjury trap that he almost couldn’t get out of.
For me, Michael knowing that Fredo was still betraying him even after Cuba is what led him to his death
@@johnepants I don't think Fredo is connecting the dots, and Michael knows this. But he's mad because Fredo talked to the enemy. I think that's Michael's tragedy, not being able to forgive or even consider what looks like betrayal may just be weak-minded gullibility.
I don’t think Michael did things any differently than Vito. The “nice mob boss” angle just means Vito is a better liar and more dangerous. A monster is a monster regardless of their manners
I think that Vito prioritized family too much to have Fredo killed. Probably removing Fredo from the family business, thereby neutralizing him from ever being in that position again. Maybe Fredo gets some farmland or something like that.
Yeah, the problem for Fredo in many ways is that he was brought into the family business in the first place. It should have been obvious to Vito that Fredo wasn't cut out for that kind of life and should have been pushed in the direction of starting his own business that was legitimate and not connected to anything the family had an interest in. He was always going to be a liability in the mafia. He was too weak to be muscle and not smart enough to be a leader. All he could be is an errand boy, but that would breed resentment and leave him open to being targeted for manipulation. Don Vito in some ways doomed him the send he let Fredo in on the family business. He was going to get killed by others, or screw up in some other way causing either his banishment or death for breaking the family's trust. Considering Vito was supposed to be this great reader or people, he failed to read Fredo and realize while Fredo might be perfectly happy being his dad's errand boy, what would happen with Vito passed. Fredo would have chafed at being an errand boy for his brothers rather than his father, and that would have eventually ended badly.
@@kentvesser9484Sonny was much more considerate of Fredo than any other family member. He sent him to Vegas so that he could start a new and make a success of that venture.
ooh good question. Simply put, as per also the book, Fredo was a loyal son to Vito and never would've betrayed his father.
But Vito DOES acknowledge the weakness in his son by putting him ‘somewhere that has the least impact’. It is harder to believe that Fredo would’ve screwed his father over the way Fredo did to Michael.
@@judywright4241 Fredo took that on the chin because father knows best. His kid brother Mikey on the other hand…
He never had the opportunity, nor the position, nor did he have the need. With the Don around, he had no reason to get greedy. Things change with the deaths of top family members. Never forget, his inaction got him easily shot amd nearly killed. He was worthless.
@@judywright4241 that's interesting why did mike put fredo in a position to hurt him like that? Hmmm Fredo was with Vito when he got shot
Same with Sonny. HIs main reason for betraying Michael was that he felt "humiliated" by being bossed around by his younger brother (remember, this was the 1950s and they where from a strong patriarch culture). He felt that he was unjustly passed over as the "head" of the family.
Had, for arguments sake, Sonny not died but only gotten injured and got left in a coma for a few years, so that the majority of the Godfather 1 is virtually unchanged, and then Sonny wakes up just in time for when Vito died (and for arguments sake, Sonny would allow Michael to be Boss cause he by that point saw that Michael had Vito's "mob spirit" in him) then Fredo never would have betrayed them as long as Sonny kept backing Michael. He would be submissive against Sonny.
But like, Michael should have seen it comming, he knew he grew up in a patriarchal culture and he should have "played" Fredo better. Like pretending to ask Fredo for advice and nudge him into agreeing with whatever position MIchael had already decided to and thank him for his council etc. Then he would probably have felt as if he had taken the role his father had taken the last years of his life (as Michaels consigliere) and would have felt like he was top dog.
I agree 100% with CineRanter. Before watching this video, like CineRanter I recalled the pneumonia scene with the infant Fredo. Vito would be (for a while) devastated and look inward searching for self-failure. Fredo would be kept "safe" for the rest of his life, with little or no family interaction and NOTHING to do with the family business.
Vito would not kill Fredo… ever… look at what happened to Sonny…He could’ve got revenge but he did not because of family
Na Vito knew the Corleone family was too weak at that time donny got killed to strike against the other families and was biding his time to hit back
@@MrJonnyl123 that’s correct he could’ve killed Carlo early but he didn’t because Sonny was planning to Wipe out the other families but he couldn’t pull it off alone Vito and Micheal put the finishing pieces together made everybody relax and then got them
Michael's leadership was different than his father's because of the time in which he came into power. If you listen to real life mobsters they discuss as time went on the mafia lost a lot of it's values to family an community and greed had become a major problem because of the influx drugs which the mafia at one time didn't allow to be sold. So Michael's leadership had to be cold and calculated in response to the cutthroat time he lived in.
Fredo would never betray Sonny. He knew Sonny was groomed to be top dog so there was no jealously, no need to betray his older brother. Besides, he was afraid of Sonny! Now Michael, "you're my kid brother and you take care of me!" His reasons for betraying Michael are obvious.
Letting Fredo live would have been a liability. Kay was almost killed, and his children could easily have been in the room. So it's really more complicated than the video makes it to be imo
I agree! Stupidity and envy is a dangerous combination. He would’ve very likely pulled another stunt like this if Michael hadn’t have had him killed.
But he was only a liability if he could maneuver in the background.
Fredo had his little cemetery business idea he wanted to get off the ground and Roth used that to trick Fredo into setting Michael up. But Fredo wanted that so much bc he knew what people thought of him and he wanted to prove that he could provide value to the Family beyond acting as a gopher.
@@StuUngar Fredo had proven to everybody else that they were right about him by stabbing his family in the back, almost getting his brother and sister in law and potentially his niece and nephew killed.
@@kcirtapelyk6060 But he didnt do it intentionally is my point and he was only able to do that because he had access to Michael and to some of the internal workings of the Corleone Family. Without access to Michael or the Family, he is no use to Michael’s enemies.
I agree. But in the Vito scenario where it was just Fredo being manipulated I think that would be the deciding factor. Truly I think if it had been Fredos ignorance and stupidity that got Kay nearly killed Michael would have been pissed but not wanted Fredo dead. He knows Fredo is not all there in the head. But its Fredo telling him he envied him, that he was resentful that is what sealed it for Michael. He could put up with a fool of a brother, but one who wanted his seat at the table as well? Thats a step too far.
I think if there had been a somewhat day dream sequence of Michael sitting alone at the bench and the ghost of Vito was sat next to him, Michael would ask his father if he did the right thing if his choices throughout part 2 were the right ones, Vito would be silent then get up and walk away signifying he’s turned his back on him for killing Fredo and that he’s angered him by abandoning what was really important
Thats poetic 👏 and I feel similarly
No. Vito Always supported Michael.
Brilliant observations, thank you.
Unforgivable in my opinion, Michael regretted this action for the rest of his life. It’s indefensible that he kills his own brother. Fredo was stupid and weak, but Michael should have taken this into consideration.
Fredo tried to have him killed. Michael did the right thing
I damn well would have ordered Fredo Decapitated like the damn horse!!
@@brocklanders9259 Michael did the only thing he could have just then, but it was also an action that would destroy his family and ultimately himself.
@@cha5 When your family is a major crime family, everyone loses in the end.
@@brocklanders9259 Fredo told Mike that he had no idea that Roth and Ola were planning for a hit against Mike
I like the way your mind works. I've contemplated this since first watching the film.
I think Vito would have taken better care of Fredo. Michael sort of sent him out to vegas assuming he could handle it. Vito would have known his son better. Would have not have been disrespectful to his son.
It was sonny that sent Fredo to Las Vegas not Michael
Very intriguing question. Great video
Love this channel ❤️
I agree that Fredo would never have had the opportunity or motivation to betray Vito like he did Michael. If Fredo was willing to and did some how arrange for a way to betray Vito, I think Vito would have been aware of it and probably arranged things so it was ultimately to the Corleone's advantage. How would Vito react to that betrayal? I think you are right that he would likely have forgiven Fredo but banished him from the family and exiled him. However, I also think that either Luca Brasi (assuming he is still alive) or Michael himself would have considered a banished Fredo as a serious threat to the family. They would have likely killed Fredo themselves without Vito's permission or knowledge so he would be "blameless" for the death. I think in a situation like this it wouldn't be surprising to see one of those two take action in order to protect the family even if it meant facing the Don's judgement afterwards. Even Tom Hagen says that "Not even Sonny" could stop Luca Brasi from enacting vengeance for the death of Vito, which implies that Luca would be willing to defy the orders of the new Don in that situation. I think similarly Michael would have been willing to defy Vito's orders with regards to allowing Fredo to live.
nah. if vito or sonny never perished too early, michael would never be in the family business so any kind of harm to his family, he'd despise even more
Michael is the only one who'd have killed Fredo.
Vito? Vito would never kill his own son. He couldn't even bring himself to kill his treacherous son-in-law Carlo (Connie's husband), who betrayed Sonny to his death. But Vito wouldn't have exiled Fredo: "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" was one of Vito's rules. He'd keep his traitorous son close so he could keep an eye on him, and would've explicitly forbidden Michael or Sonny from ever harming Fredo.
Sonny? Sonny would have laid down a beating and exiled Fredo, but he'd never kill him. Family was everything to Sonny, one of the things he had in common with Vito.
Vito didn't spare Carlo out of weakness. He wanted to not alert his enemies of what he knew.
Great stills too! That shot of Fredo....his expresion...expression.... kudos!
I dont think Vito would ever put Fredo in a position to betray the family. Vito understands that what Fredo values most is being with his family. So he keeps Fredo close. The irony being that Fredos job isnt all that well known. Michael does the exact opposite. Fredo even says to Miachael in Vegas that he wishes they had spent time together. And you can argue tthat sending Fredo to Vegas is a grave error on Michaels part since it sets in motion the assassination attempt against him. Maybe he should have sent Tom to represent the family in Vegas. Tom is someone who wouldnt have been careless and easily manipulated. Vito knows his children well. He says he had big plans for Michael to be a Senator; plans to make the Corleone family a truly elite and powerful family. They would have one of their own keenly positioned in Washington dc.(kind of like in the movie The Departed with Matt Damons character) So Vito would never have let Fredo be in a position to even think about betraying his family. The problem is that Vito had no real successor. Maybe thats something he was ok with in the end if Michael could successfully become a powerful politician. But with their enemies encircling them and knowing Sonny is a bad Don he knows Michael is really the only option to even survive Barzini and the rest of the families in New York.
In The Godfather. Vito always knew Fredo for the weakling he was. Plus after Vito got shot Fredo sat on his backside and burst into tears
You ever notice the look Vito gives Fredo when he comes home from the hospital? That look says it all.
I'm sure Micheal was going to let Fredo live if he admitted and apologised for it.
That Fredo acted as if nothing was wrong was what made the decision.
If Fredo (or any one of Vito's sons) had ever betrayed him the way Fredo did Michel, it wouldn't even matter if the hit wasn't actually successful, it would have destroyed Vito regardless. He would have openly wished that the hit *had* been successful, and of course he would not have been able to kill Fredo. He would have sent Fredo into exile, but that would largely be because he wouldn't be able to bear even seeing him, it would just too painful for Vito to even look at his own son. And most importantly, it would have weakened Vito, diminished his ability to operate effectively. After his own son betrays him, how could he trust anyone, even his other sons? He'd start second-guessing himself, the other families would smell weakness, and soon enough Michael would have to step in and take over, at least to some extent. From there, it's just a replay of how things played out in II: Fredo would be safe as long as Vito remained alive, but once he died, Fredo's days would be numbered (even with Mama Corelone still alive).
...Of course, that assumes Sonny isn't around to take over the family once Vito starts faltering. If Sonny was the one in charge, that's a whole new question.
Vito would forgive Fredo. Vito would have sacrificed a lot of business in order to protect his blood family. The inverse of Michael by part 2. Fabrizios betrayal really screwed up Michaels perspective.
That was the moment everything became personal to Michael nothing was business anymore when he got the news about Sonny it was like he expected it but Apollonia dying changed him forever
Vito wouldn't kill his own son for the same reason he was an efficient Don... he was (despite appearances) actually a pretty "normal" person who happened to be a genius and 50% fell into his position. He practically ended up as Don out of economic circumstance and because he was one of the few who could do the job well because unlike those criminals who surrounded him he was as intelligent as he was sane. Michael tried to mimic the appearance of this but he was at heart more disturbed. Michael is an inverted Vito: Vito was at the core a sane, ordinary man who did a good job of playing the part a ruthless don when he needed to whereas Michael really was a ruthless don who did a bad job of playing the part of a sane, ordinary man.
That intro always gets me
I think the exile idea with Veito makes sense …u did a good breakdown of head and heart versus HEAD only pov …good stuff …hope u all are watching the “the offer”
Excellent question and a number of very good answers. IMO, if the Don is thinking ahead of the curve than he would not execute his son because that would be contrary to the softer Don (let's not forget the Don was not warm and fuzzy prior to the assassination attempt). He gave some pretty heinous orders to Luca Brasi. There was a definite disconnect between Michael and his Father, so the slower sweeter Don appears after he is nearly killed. I believe going on the premise that is laid out if Fredo did try to cut a side deal that caused the attempt on Don Vito and he found out. He would have been tormented but killing him was not an option but exile even to Sicily would be dangerous. I think he would have had him placed in an institution, a beautiful palatial mental institution where he would be watched closely as he would blame him having a nervous breakdown and a regular dosage of Thorazine to keep him calm. Its here where regularly he would be picked up and brought home for events but returned "for his good health". Slightly different idea. Thanks!
I agreed with you 1 Million Percent. I had the same logic you have explained on this video.
I think Vito would have exiled his son. But it would have impacted the godfather big time and made him rethink the lifestyle altogether. Mainly allowing any of his family to follow him any further apart from maybe Sonny who Was in too deep by then. I'm guessing he would have thought that my own son has been corrupted by Roth and power so much that he would have killed me for it. I don't think he would have kept his cool either, which he is known for. Never hate your enemy, it clouds your judgement. He would have been so upset and wanted to take it out on Roth so much that he could have uncharacteristically let his emotions control him and made some big mistakes.
Vito would change his saying to "keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and Fredo closest of all"
He would never let him out of his sight. Basically house arrest, with a trusted bodyguard/babysitter along whenever he goes out. Keep him on the straight and narrow. All his phones tapped and Fredo would know it.
John Cazale gave an Oscar- worthy performance as Fredo. Sending Fredo to Sicily wouldn't work because Vito knew that Roth would have tracked Fredo down no matter where he went; the danger to the family would still be there.
Violence isn't personal, its business. Michael flipped that when he had Fredo murdered.
1st With Vito still alive, there’s no Baptism of Fire. So Roth has no reason to want Michael dead.
2nd With Sonny alive, Fredo isn’t passed over. So Fredo would not be upset and betray the family.
Interesting thought experiment and I agree with you Vito would not kill Fredo. He would be exiled IMO to Vegas. Where Vito can insure nothing happens to him easier than Sicily
Very interesting topic. It's brilliant that you brought up how Vito treated Carlo. Vito was furious with how Carlo abused Conny, but not intervened, following the tradition. So, right, Vito would not have killed Fredo, he would be sent off somewhere, I agree.
Great video. Yeah exile seems the most likely outcome, though I agree Fredo never would've tried to pull this if his father were alive.
Well, I've often thought of this.
Fredo wouldn't have betrayed Vito or Sonny. Due to the fact that they treated him with love and respect, unlike Michael; who kept Fredo at arms length. That alienation is what drove him to it.
Sonny probably would have beat the crap out of him. However, if Sonny lost control of his temper; he might have gone far enough to beat Fredo to death. The main thing is, Sonny would have treated Fredo as his brother; not a doorman.
Vito, well you made a good reason as to how he would have handled it. He would have nipped it in the bud before it ever happened.
For Michael, I love his character, yet he saw treachery in everyone around him. By seeing treachery in others, that's what manifested. He lost two important people because of it: Tessio and Fredo. Even Frank to a degree. Had he been more like Vito and Sonny, in how to treat people, he wouldn't have lost so much.
They never respected Michael. Respect is a two-way street.
Sonny treated Fredo as child. He dismissed him at the grown up table at the end of godfather 2
I like your idea of exile but, I think that is more of a 60’s/70’s thing. Also, look what happened to Michael in Sicily. Vito’s enemies found him and tried to kill him there. So, Fredo would not be in TOTAL exile in Sicily.
You heard the listen to his heart, possibly from Coppola talking over don tomassino's funeral, in the special features of the godfather part 3 💗
Your video is very interesting and very thorough. I agree with your conclusion. I do not believe that Vito would have ordered the death of Fredo, I absolutely do not see this happening. I also doubt that Vito would have had Connie's husband, Carlo killed. Thanks for posting these very interesting videos about The Godfather.
It was only Michael's (widely perceived) "weakness" that made this situation one which could occur, and a lifetime of Fredo fearing as much as loving his father means the scenario would and could never arise.
Such a great question...
Family is everything!
Damn listening with his heart and his head I felt that.😌
The ratio of brothers killing brothers is pretty high in the mob compared to fathers killing their sons in the mob.
The Desafano brothers; Sam killed is kid brother and was himself killed by his middle brother.
The Riccabina brothers; some believe that Harry had his brother Mario killed after he testified against him.
The Ciancaglini borthers; an informer said Micheal Chang was the shooter of his own brother Joey Chang, but strangely Micheal missed all of Joey's vital organs and just crippled him for life. (maybe Micheal did not have it in him to kill his own brother on the spot and just wounded him)
Raymond Patriarca sent a hitman to kill his own brother just because the FBI tapped his club, luckily his brother survived the attack.
Not many records of dads taking out their sons.
Again Raymond Patriarca, he ordered one of his captain to kill his own son, the captain drop to Raymond's knees and begged for his sons life, Raymond spat on him and threw the captain out of his family... Raymond is said to be the only mob boss Vito Genovese feared; this may explain why.
Dominick Cirillo is the only one I know who is allegedly to have killed his own son.
Mob son kills mob father after mob grandfather kills own mob grandson?
It's complicated, Calogero "Charles the Sidge" LoCicero a Colombo Consigliere is believed to have had his own mobbed up grandson killed over money issues.
LoCicero's own son, a Colombo soldier, went to Boss Joe Colombo for permission to have his own father killed.
At the funeral of his Consigliere, Colombo mobsters asked Joe Colombo what happened?
Joe Colombo replied 'it was a family issue but not our family issue'
I agree Don Vito would have exiled him to Sicily. But before that, he also would have immediately taken out Hyman Roth and company (or whoever got to him in this scenario) using whatever information they could get out of Fredo. Possibly even using him as bait in an ambush.
Don Vito would then spin the story by saying Fredo was sent in as a double-agent of sorts to set them up, like the successful version of the Luca Brasi scheme. They could explain the exile as being sent away for his safety like Michael was, albeit permanently. (Maybe even later spin that into, "He loves it here so much, he decided to stay.") This would allow him to live without the justifiable public shame that he would otherwise have to suffer and also, the Corleone Family could also save face. Any rumors of the truth would be hushed with, "No. Don Corleone says it happened this way. Are you going to disagree with Don Corleone?" And as far as the inner circle of the Corleone Family, it'd be that thing everybody knows but nobody talks about. Ever. But as far as everyone else goes, I doubt many would believe it anyway. Everybody knows Fredo is weak and stupid and he'd never betray his own father, especially when his father is Don Corleone. And the false story may even possibly improve his reputation. It's easy to imagine the button men saying, "Damn! Fredo set up Johnny Ola AND Hyman Roth [or whoever]! I didn't know he had that in him!"
Vito knew Fredo was a bit simple minded and vulnerable. I believe he would’ve simply given him a small retail business that he could call his very own, and put people around Fredo that would protect him and keep enemies from getting to him to manipulate him. He would gently explain that to Fredo in light of Fredo‘s betrayal as a solution to help him understand why he needed to keep a careful and watchful eye on him. He would not have killed Fredo because Fredo didn’t intend to actually get anyone hurt.
A small detail I've noticed with Michael sitting in the chair alone in the garden is the grey hair he has. This scene probably takes place years later maybe 10 or more. You can tell he's deeply damaged by killing his brother.
There are many sparsely populated islands in the waters around Italy and Sicily. Pleasant, lovely, places where Fredo could have been maintained as a pampered prisoner. Coddled, but controlled.
I'm smart, not dumb like everybody says, I'm smart🤣🤣
Only a monster would kill their own child.
I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on this same scenario but if it were Sonny. Please do that one next.
Killing a son is different than killing your brother. The real question to contrast this is would Michael kill his son if he betrayed the family in part 3?
Arguably Fredo wouldnt have done that if Vito were still alive and in charge.
When Michael killed Fredo he killed himself. You can see the immense pain and guilt he suffered from that decision when he made his confession in Godfather 3. Michael never recovered.
Vito knew how to include others to make them feel part of something even though they had no significant role.
michael forgot vito's most important lesson. Family first.
Have to agree with you. Though most likely, once Vito had passed away, Michael would sent "Associates" to deal with Fredo whom Vito would have likely exiled to the Old Country.
4:12i agree. people often say that stupidity was fredos greatest weakness but i believe it was his ego and putting himself before the family. for example in film luca brasi doesnt seem to be smart but hes loyal and puts the family first before himself.
Btw I think you would make an interesting video on how both goodfellas and my blue heaven are based on Henry hill
My Blue Heaven so criminally underrated
Great video - thank you for uploading it. I have a question: As we know, Sonny was very emotional and often made decisions without thinking about the consequences. Don Vito was very well aware of that. What would you say: If Sonny had not been assassinated - would Vito also have appointed Michael as the new Don ???
Vito never wanted Mike to be part of the underworld so why would he hand over his empire to him when Sonny was still alive.
You have to do the “What would Sonny have done!”
I remember seeing the ending scene of Godfather 2 and I don't know if it was the lighting, camera choice, or make-up but it looked like he has gotten older in a blink of an eye or in transition almost leading to the third non-intended film. Am I the only one that spots that?
Vito wouldn't have ever killed one of his children. He loved his kids more than anything. Everything he had done up to that point was to take care of his family. He would've forgiven Fredo but essentially cut him off from the business more so than he already was.
One reason I think Michael was able to kill Fredo was because Vito purposely kept Michael out of the family business because he wanted more from him. Because Michael was basically on the outside he didn't grow up seeing how Vito handled these sort of matters involving family. Yes no one flat out betrayed Vito the way Fredo did to Michael. But he still would've seen his father at work and seen how he handled situations. If he had grown up as part of the business he might not have so readily given the order to kill his own brother.
Agreed, though, entirely on your analysis of how Vito would have reacted, the point of the film, and the narrative structure.
The boat option is always an effective way pf disposing of enemies😜
Poor Fredo was sick as a child.
Yes the code did say among all things even family.
I don’t think he’d kill him. I think he would find a way to put Fredo away from his business and create a situation for Fredo to run. He was more than the weak link in the family. But he would make it so his mother could see him.
It would never have happened. There is no way Fredo would have betrayed his father. The reason for betraying Michael was because Fredo angry because he had been passed over.
Bingo.
I think the main reason is that Mike had to do it to prevent Fredo from taking sides against family again, the last time Fredo nearly destroy the family and still didn’t admit his mistake.
Sonny would have killed Fredo by physically hurting him breaking his neck due to his high impulsive behaviour and then later regretted
I think Fredo would have been sent to Sicily. Vito might forgive him one day, since family was the most important thing to Vito. Regardless, he certainly would kick him out of the family business.
As for betrayal, Fredo would have no reason to betray Vito, since there was no motive for him to do so. The only reason why there was an attempt on Vito's life was because he didn't want to share his judges and politicians, and risk his reputation in the narcotics business.
This would be much too complex for Fredo to understand, and this wouldn't benefit him. The reason why Fredo betrayed Michael was because of jealousy and resentment. Fredo felt he was "stepped over", by Michael, who was younger than he was.
Even though Vito would be more understanding than Michael (since his views on family were very different), he still wouldn't allow him to have anything to do with the family business.
I agree. Exile. It's how Emperor Augustus handled his daughter's betrayal.
But then after Augustus's death, his adopted son, Tiberius just let her starve to death
There's a key factor that you are ignoring. The shooters fired into Michael's room. Duh, it was to kill him. But Michael was furious because the attempt was not just on his life, but his wife's life as well, hell his kids came there to play.
You're saying if the attempt was made on just Vito by Fredo. What if the attempt involved his mother?
If Vito was still around, but Michael was in power, and events played out the same way, how do you think Vito would react to an attempt made on his Son, his daughter-in-law, and possibly his grand children?
THAT is what led Michael to killing Fredo. Had he succeeded, he'd have been responsible for not just his own brother's death, but his sister-in-law, and possible his nephew & niece.
What's worse: Killing your traitorous brother who nearly killed you an your loved ones OR killing your brother, along with your sister-in-law, your niece, and your nephew all because you were jealous?
Fredo is the one who opened this can of maggots.
If Fredo pulled this crap on his father, nearly killing his mother in the process, I imagine much worse consequences would happen to Fredo. It's one thing to be killed, its quite another to be exiled from the family forever. It may seem merciful, but given how much of a moron he is and how dependent he is on others for literally anything, it would be just the same as ditching him in the Amazon Rainforest without no means of survival.
From what I saw, Fredo had it coming.
Everyone can make a mistake and learn from that mistake. 'To err is human and to forgive is divine'
My thoughts?
Fredo would have been pumped for information, possibly used to say-up retaliation and then exiled - either to the West Coast or to Florida. Give him a small business and a modest pension and a trusted Corleone associate would 'keep an eye on him'.
His prospects - after both parents die - are less healthy as Sonny (if he survived) and Michael might be more vengeful.
Barry
Fredo, like Carlo, felt left out. They both used their positions close to the Family to try to get more for themselves. Selling inside information to outsiders inevitably led, both times, to betrayal.
Carlo's example should've been a lesson, to both Vito and Michael, as to how they needed to deal with Fredo to head off a second betrayal. Vito could've done it in a loving, fatherly way, and probably could've reassured Fredo.
Michael was smart enough to see that intervention with Fredo was needed, but he was too preoccupied with taking over the Family business and settling accounts. In any event, the overachieving kid brother might not have been able to reach accord with Fredo the way the authoritative father figure would've.
7:08 the book goes into this some more. In the last part tom hagen explains to Kay that Vito knew that Micheal would kill Carlo, and that he knew it needed to happen but couldn't bring himself to do it, killing his own son in law after the difficult life he had, so he left it to Micheal.
Whose difficult life, Carlo's or Vito's. I know it was some Mafia code, but I was in question of how Vito knew how Carlo treated his daughter but didn't even at least make him an offer he couldn't refuse in regard to his abuse.
@@chipwanderlust113 Vito's life.
In the movie it's left in addressed because you just can't get into everything in the movie.
In the book we see a Vito that's a little colder and has a darker side then the one we know from the movie.
Connie actually goes to her parents after the first time she is beaten. But she gets the cold shoulder. They tell her Once a wife marries a man that man becomes her protecter and he can do with her as he wants.
She says Vito never beat his wife, to which he replies she never gave him a reason to beat her.
Which tells two things one that he doesn't have anything in principle to a man beating his wife. And second that he insinuates that she did something wrong.
Later Johnny tells him he's upset with his wife and he beats her but not in the face. Vito calls him weak for not being willing to hit her face. Once again confirming he is fine with a husband hitting his wife.
I always thought it was unrealistic that Michael discovered his brother was a traitor by a simple slip of the tongue by Fredo at some weirdo sexo live show, which would have been anathema to Michael in the first place....
Excellent channel and questions and videos. I think somehow Roth would have killed Vito first with Fredo inadvertently helping out like he did try to kill Michael. I think had Vito had this choice to make he would have done the same thing but in a matter that looked like an accident and mention nothing to anyone. What I mean is Vito would carry this out only knowing he did it and he would do it. I think if he had to he would do something like that.
"The Family" is more of the people associated with the family business than the actual bloodline family. The 5 Families in NYC probably had 1 to 2 thousand members in its hay day, all kicking back money to the overlords of the empire. I think Michael did have allegiance to the bloodline family, but like Vito, the business family superseded it a lot; probably more than it should have.
Vito was old school, I think he would have killed bloodline family if they outright betrayed him, but not his children, or those married to his children. The Oath of Omerta states that, if necessary, you are to kill bloodline family, and betrayal is a big one.
He probably would have banished Fredo to Italy, but he would not have looked out for him; so, most likely, he would have gotten himself killed for acting stupidly around one thing or another - like banging some made man's wife, or cheating some made man out of his cut on something.
Michael should've kept Fredo closer like an enemy, perhaps showing him how not be gullible to go against his family?
Vito would have removed Fredo from the family business. Like he did Carlo in the beginning, give him a living but never let him know about the family business. Today they would “put him on the shelf” basically banning him from doing business with anyone in the family and stripping him of his button or his made man status.
Had it been Fredo and not Paulie who set Vito up to be killed and Sonny found out, yes he would have delivered a beating but not killed him. He too would have banished Fredo from anything to do with the family business.
But this is all conjecture, Fredo would have never betrayed Vito. His betrayal of Michael was because he was passed over to head the family after Vito died. Even before Vito died Fredo was out of favor. In the book Michael asks if Vito wants to bring Fredo home from Las Vegas and he responds “Why? We have our women to cook and clean for us” or something to that effect. He was in disfavor because of his escapades with so many women of which Vito strongly disapproved.
It doesn't line up exactly though because Michael killed his brother, not his son. So the question has to be "would Vito have killed his own brother?" Or, I guess, would Michael have killed his own son if his son betrayed him? As horrid as killing your own brother is, it isn't nearly as bad as killing your own child
💯💯💯💯
No, he would probably just forbid him to do business or send him away.
I agree with the exiled to scily