A lot of coping and seething in these comments. Be specific - which of Tom’s points are wrong? Nobody is actually addressing his points, just ad hominems
Ok, I'll bite, watch this American academic refute his points. Yes he is Muslim, but remember, as you said, no ad hominems 🙂 th-cam.com/video/mJaLC5Gnl34/w-d-xo.html
I love how Tom dismisses the one minute introduction of how Islam is supposed to have started and proceeds to call it an Arab takeover… that will later become known as Islam.
No mention of any Arabic prophet named Muhammad from Ismael dans le Coran. No Mecca, no black stone, no Palestinian. A fabrication out of thin air, since nobody reads anymore.
"Islam is the most enduring imperial ideology of all time".....this ending of the edited clip is motivating me to view the full video...need to hear what or how Islam is an "imperial ideology"...
He doesn’t have to go in detail, it is what it is, they gave options to conquered places to become muslim so they don’t pay extra taxes etc, so many chose to convert rather than being slaves as well… simple it is
@@ZazaMarkle Islam is not an imperial ideology. It was a provocative statement. Which is why the original comment made that statement. It was hook to get you to watch more but he doesn’t say any more than that… simple as that
@@abdallah6757It is, it's message is to spread it across the globe, with the end goal being a world wide caliphate, it doesn't get more imperial then that.
@@otherwize12 well if you believe that than your knowledge is lacking and I doubt that’s what the professor was stating by it being imperial. There are two billion Muslims across the globe a fourth of mankind today. If the goal was a world wide caliphate than it would be much more noticeable. Islam is an evangelizing religion much like Christianity. If you don’t consider Christianity an imperial faith wich I will assume you dont than it’s simply western bias
In other words, Islam grew through Arab conquests of weakened Roman and Persian empires, and not necessarily by the revolutionary message of Allah, so to speak. But, it's fascinating that Holland calls Islam an "ideological empire". I think Quran at its core has a liberating and unifying spirit for individuals, but yet conquering Arabs or "Muslims" later on turned it into an ideology through the emergence of "Hadith". Just a thought.
@@bobbycalifornia7077 more people became buddhist . The whole east asia (china , Mongolia) is bigger than middle east and also have more population. That whole area became buddhist under mongol rule
His wider ideas are spot on, the push pull of regional geopolitics, social and cultural clashes cannot be ignored.the post Muhammad idea im not too sure about, highly skeptical of that it appears they is a figure with some kind of laws or preaching behind the expansion.
So in summary, Islam grew out of a mixed revolutionary version of mixed Christianity and Judaism, which later revised and morphed to a great extent by the conquered civilised, and became further revolutionary, by the time of Abbasids, and that explains how from the ashes of the two greatest civilisations of the time, a new far more advanced empire was born!
For years I've wished for some kind of documentation showing parallel historical events side by side. I belive that would produce a different understanding and truer image of times past. I also would like to understand what was the driving forces that made people think that they had something to gain from supporting or joining islam. Apart from not being slaughtered, that is.
You can read the caliphate by hugh kennedy. Its a history book about the development of the caliphate since the death of muhammad untill the destruction of the abbasids.
@khurmiful no, he might be a good historian in roman history but not in islam. If a historian can't even speak the languages of its primary sources, then their work is flawed.
Mr Tom Holland with his own lens have read islamic history with no ground evidence of multifaceted islamic conquests. If it was only the power how mangols reverted to islam and then what about Indonesia. The basic teaching of Quran and Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH) which inspired people across globe and reverted. And at the end he states imperial ideology, shows how superficial his knowledge is . As if anyone observe it's the people from poor to middle-class socioeconomic societies converted to Islam always.
Indonesia was forced to take islam, since the religion of the king would become the religion of the subjects. That was why the remnants of hindu kingdom of majapahit fled to bali and tengger. Islam in indonesia before the coming of the salafists in the 90s was also different than nowadays. Islam in indonesia used to be more traditional by incorporating to hindu tradition such as the integration of hindu legends as a mean of dawah.
It’s annoying how Muslims label conversion as reversion. Soooo much false assumption behind this word choice. People don’t “revert” to believing in child marriage, raping captured women, and killing unbelievers. They convert to it.
People often stops at the initial phase of Arab Muslim conquest and not the aftermath which is really the important historical revolution. People misses a simple explanation that young motivated nights be it Alexander's, the Mongol army are capable of conquering any fortress but incapable of keeping it unlike Arab Muslims!
There is no such thing as a united arab muslims. They speak different dialects and practice different kinds of islam. And they are still fighting and hating eachother even until now.
Hard Core Christians like Tom Holland tried to dismiss the message of Islam since day one in every Century. Reality is, social media phenomena of our time has made the message of Islam more appealing worldwide including in his backyard in UK.
Really? Islam will never enter God's elect. Allah challenged God as to being God. Dose who convert to Islam have never truly walked with God. I bear witness Muhammad has not introduced God but rather something else😮.
Whether or not his earlier theory from his documentary is debunked or not doesn't matter. Because here, in this video he's just talking over commonly accepted Mesopotamian history. Which includes 2 tiring empires at the end of their slug fest and then a third one snatching the price right from underneath their tired noses. He's speaking the truth here.
@@otherwize12 It's always the same rhetoric to emphasize that the Arabs had an easy grab, which in reality is just a fancy way of undermining their achievements. There is no excuse for both empires to have lost their battles. They were well-armed, had vastly more experience, and often fielded armies two to three times the size of the Arab forces. The quality of equipment was also superior. I'll tell you what the real downfall was for both empires: cowardice. Most of them were on a payroll, if they would catch even the slightest hint of imminent defeat, they would turn tail.
Islam brought a new enduring heavenly system for humanity opposing the other enduring earthly system that humanity experienced before and in today's Western world!
😂😂 heavenly system that acts and functions like any other world system. No, Christ brought the true heavenly kingdom. The kingdom of heaven is spiritual with spiritual warfare, not physical warfare to expand it like any other worldly empire.
@@_A-qg5vf the polythesitic ancient Egyptians flourished for THOUSANDS of years before Islam was invented. That doesn't mean it's a "heavenly system for humanity" The success of a nation at a point in time has no impact on the truthfulness of its theological claims
The Arab mercenaries we're given vasal States, which eventually turned against rome and became Independent States. These vasal States constituted the Kernel of the Arab Empire. The Desert is essentially empty. The Desert inhabitants of the Hijab did Not have the Numbers and means to conquer largely empires. That's a fairy tale.
@@MohamedShou The Persian Empire essentially collapsed following thei defeat in 622. The 7th century arabs we're non-trinitarian Christian. This is Borne Out by The contemporary coins and inscriptions . Islam evolved later in the 8th and 9th century.
@@kilianklaiber6367 This late Islam invention has been debunked by guests to the channel and other - Van Putten, Sidky, Nasser, Al Jallad - whose work indicates the “Allah” and some monotheism existed prior to Islam but not as you put it that all Arabs were non-trinitarian Christians.
If God wills, we find Islam of Abrahamic Monotheism and Creed, not corrupted Hadiths of Abu Huraira et al. The Quran is the Hadith of God (all of it are His words), and things happen in this world according to His ways (nothing is independent of Him). Nothing is equivalent to God, His Power, His words etc. ... waman asdaqu mina Allahi Hadithan.[Quran chp 4 ver 87] falam yaku yanfauhum imanuhum lamma raaw basana Sunnata Allahi... [Quran chp 40 ver 85]
Islam is just a product of its time, nothing divine. Just look for the original sources behind the stories in the Quran. No way are those God’s words. God wouldn’t repeat false stories as if they’re true.
@@raularnela3654 Good morality? #Bible Zechariah 8:16-17 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts; do not plot evil against each other, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,” declares the Lord. #Quran chp 4 ver 135 O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe God, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, God takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
@@trinitymatrix9719 lol 😂 dont assume muslims to be subordinate of western Christian imperialism... We can think by our own ... Go and take care of yourself
A lot of coping and seething in these comments. Be specific - which of Tom’s points are wrong? Nobody is actually addressing his points, just ad hominems
Ok, I'll bite, watch this American academic refute his points. Yes he is Muslim, but remember, as you said, no ad hominems 🙂 th-cam.com/video/mJaLC5Gnl34/w-d-xo.html
I love how Tom dismisses the one minute introduction of how Islam is supposed to have started and proceeds to call it an Arab takeover… that will later become known as Islam.
Not sure what your point is.
@@loveroflife1914 more of a comment really, I think.
No mention of any Arabic prophet named Muhammad from Ismael dans le Coran. No Mecca, no black stone, no Palestinian. A fabrication out of thin air, since nobody reads anymore.
"Islam is the most enduring imperial ideology of all time".....this ending of the edited clip is motivating me to view the full video...need to hear what or how Islam is an "imperial ideology"...
He doesn’t go into more detail than that unfortunately. It’s only a hook unfortunately
He doesn’t have to go in detail, it is what it is, they gave options to conquered places to become muslim so they don’t pay extra taxes etc, so many chose to convert rather than being slaves as well… simple it is
@@ZazaMarkle Islam is not an imperial ideology. It was a provocative statement. Which is why the original comment made that statement. It was hook to get you to watch more but he doesn’t say any more than that… simple as that
@@abdallah6757It is, it's message is to spread it across the globe, with the end goal being a world wide caliphate, it doesn't get more imperial then that.
@@otherwize12 well if you believe that than your knowledge is lacking and I doubt that’s what the professor was stating by it being imperial. There are two billion Muslims across the globe a fourth of mankind today. If the goal was a world wide caliphate than it would be much more noticeable. Islam is an evangelizing religion much like Christianity. If you don’t consider Christianity an imperial faith wich I will assume you dont than it’s simply western bias
At 5:55 he says Roman Greeks, they are also mostly not greek it just became the identity after Alexander.
In other words, Islam grew through Arab conquests of weakened Roman and Persian empires, and not necessarily by the revolutionary message of Allah, so to speak.
But, it's fascinating that Holland calls Islam an "ideological empire".
I think Quran at its core has a liberating and unifying spirit for individuals, but yet conquering Arabs or "Muslims" later on turned it into an ideology through the emergence of "Hadith". Just a thought.
How do you then consider Gabriel's comment about the Mongols? They conquered but became Muslim. Perhaps there is something in the message as well.
@@bobbycalifornia7077 Well, In the image of its prophet, I can imagine the Islam is especially attractive for conquering warlords.
You can't rule out Islam message. It's very attractive. Look at today. A world event is causing many ppl converting to Islam.
Islam is an ideological empire
@@bobbycalifornia7077 more people became buddhist . The whole east asia (china , Mongolia) is bigger than middle east and also have more population. That whole area became buddhist under mongol rule
oh, a clip!
His wider ideas are spot on, the push pull of regional geopolitics, social and cultural clashes cannot be ignored.the post Muhammad idea im not too sure about, highly skeptical of that it appears they is a figure with some kind of laws or preaching behind the expansion.
So in summary, Islam grew out of a mixed revolutionary version of mixed Christianity and Judaism, which later revised and morphed to a great extent by the conquered civilised, and became further revolutionary, by the time of Abbasids, and that explains how from the ashes of the two greatest civilisations of the time, a new far more advanced empire was born!
For years I've wished for some kind of documentation showing parallel historical events side by side. I belive that would produce a different understanding and truer image of times past.
I also would like to understand what was the driving forces that made people think that they had something to gain from supporting or joining islam. Apart from not being slaughtered, that is.
You can read the caliphate by hugh kennedy. Its a history book about the development of the caliphate since the death of muhammad untill the destruction of the abbasids.
@@misterprogressive8730 Thank you! Never heard of it. So many books, so little time...
Not all Mongols became muslim..Dome Christian..some Buddhist.some tjeir same religion.
Please Read "Unveiling Persia: A Zoroastrian Perspective on Iranian History".
I read Tom Holland's book under the Shadow of the Sword and it was very helpful in explaining the historical problems.
It's puzzling to me why Tom Holland is deemed a credible authority on Islam's history
For the same reason Reza Aslan is deemed a credible authority on Jesus: these guys can write really well!
It's just his personal opinion. He pointed it out. I mean it's flawed just his opinion not facts.
There is no final authority about historic events. There are good historians and he’s one of them.
@khurmiful no, he might be a good historian in roman history but not in islam. If a historian can't even speak the languages of its primary sources, then their work is flawed.
He is a credible historian. He tries to search for a credible account given the facts and the sources. That is what they do
Hmmm. Quite the comment section community.
Mr Tom Holland with his own lens have read islamic history with no ground evidence of multifaceted islamic conquests. If it was only the power how mangols reverted to islam and then what about Indonesia.
The basic teaching of Quran and Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH) which inspired people across globe and reverted. And at the end he states imperial ideology, shows how superficial his knowledge is . As if anyone observe it's the people from poor to middle-class socioeconomic societies converted to Islam always.
Indonesia was forced to take islam, since the religion of the king would become the religion of the subjects. That was why the remnants of hindu kingdom of majapahit fled to bali and tengger. Islam in indonesia before the coming of the salafists in the 90s was also different than nowadays. Islam in indonesia used to be more traditional by incorporating to hindu tradition such as the integration of hindu legends as a mean of dawah.
It’s annoying how Muslims label conversion as reversion. Soooo much false assumption behind this word choice. People don’t “revert” to believing in child marriage, raping captured women, and killing unbelievers. They convert to it.
Dear friend, alla only speak arabic, quran can only be understood in arabic, islam + quran was only meant for 7th century arabic people
People often stops at the initial phase of Arab Muslim conquest and not the aftermath which is really the important historical revolution. People misses a simple explanation that young motivated nights be it Alexander's, the Mongol army are capable of conquering any fortress but incapable of keeping it unlike Arab Muslims!
There is no such thing as a united arab muslims. They speak different dialects and practice different kinds of islam. And they are still fighting and hating eachother even until now.
@@_A-qg5vfThey didn't, they split up very early on into different factions and kept this trend up on till this day.
Dear friend, alla only speak arabic, quran can only be understood in arabic, islam + quran was only meant for 7th century arabic people
The last sentence is profound.
Hard Core Christians like Tom Holland tried to dismiss the message of Islam since day one in every Century. Reality is, social media phenomena of our time has made the message of Islam more appealing worldwide including in his backyard in UK.
He is an atheist.
Really? Thanks to the internet that able to expose crappy teachings of isLame
What’s your evidence that Tom Holland is a hardcore Christian?
Tom holland is atheist, u didnt even manage to get that fact correct
Really? Islam will never enter God's elect. Allah challenged God as to being God. Dose who convert to Islam have never truly walked with God. I bear witness Muhammad has not introduced God but rather something else😮.
Tom Holland? Wasn't he debunked years ago about Mecca? He's not still peddling his bs?
Please elaborate ...
Sorry “I was molested as a child to believe Islam so I don’t care about facts” isn’t a debunk. Go clean the seamen out of your mouth.
Whether or not his earlier theory from his documentary is debunked or not doesn't matter. Because here, in this video he's just talking over commonly accepted Mesopotamian history. Which includes 2 tiring empires at the end of their slug fest and then a third one snatching the price right from underneath their tired noses. He's speaking the truth here.
He understood very quickly islm built on worlds biggest scam
@@otherwize12 It's always the same rhetoric to emphasize that the Arabs had an easy grab, which in reality is just a fancy way of undermining their achievements. There is no excuse for both empires to have lost their battles. They were well-armed, had vastly more experience, and often fielded armies two to three times the size of the Arab forces. The quality of equipment was also superior. I'll tell you what the real downfall was for both empires: cowardice. Most of them were on a payroll, if they would catch even the slightest hint of imminent defeat, they would turn tail.
Not this guy ...
Yes, this is the same man
Islam brought a new enduring heavenly system for humanity opposing the other enduring earthly system that humanity experienced before and in today's Western world!
Where can we witness the endurance of the heavenly system?
Lmao that's a cute, yet unprovable (I would say evidently false) claim
Mulims cant even agree what it means to be a muslims even until this day.
😂😂 heavenly system that acts and functions like any other world system. No, Christ brought the true heavenly kingdom. The kingdom of heaven is spiritual with spiritual warfare, not physical warfare to expand it like any other worldly empire.
@@_A-qg5vf the polythesitic ancient Egyptians flourished for THOUSANDS of years before Islam was invented. That doesn't mean it's a "heavenly system for humanity"
The success of a nation at a point in time has no impact on the truthfulness of its theological claims
The Arab mercenaries we're given vasal States, which eventually turned against rome and became Independent States. These vasal States constituted the Kernel of the Arab Empire.
The Desert is essentially empty. The Desert inhabitants of the Hijab did Not have the Numbers and means to conquer largely empires. That's a fairy tale.
“Fairtail” or not these Arab Muslim warriors destroyed and eliminated the Persian empire forever and made Roman/Byzantine a small empire 🤷🏾♂️
@@MohamedShou The Persian Empire essentially collapsed following thei defeat in 622. The 7th century arabs we're non-trinitarian Christian. This is Borne Out by The contemporary coins and inscriptions . Islam evolved later in the 8th and 9th century.
@@kilianklaiber6367 cope
@@kilianklaiber6367 This late Islam invention has been debunked by guests to the channel and other - Van Putten, Sidky, Nasser, Al Jallad - whose work indicates the “Allah” and some monotheism existed prior to Islam but not as you put it that all Arabs were non-trinitarian Christians.
@@bobbycalifornia7077 you cannot debunk coins and inscriptions with crosses. The 7th century Arab rulers were non-trinitarian Christians.
If God wills, we find Islam of Abrahamic Monotheism and Creed, not corrupted Hadiths of Abu Huraira et al. The Quran is the Hadith of God (all of it are His words), and things happen in this world according to His ways (nothing is independent of Him).
Nothing is equivalent to God, His Power, His words etc.
... waman asdaqu mina Allahi Hadithan.[Quran chp 4 ver 87]
falam yaku yanfauhum imanuhum lamma raaw basana Sunnata Allahi... [Quran chp 40 ver 85]
la ilaha il illaha
mirza ghulam ahmad Rasulullah
Islam is just a product of its time, nothing divine. Just look for the original sources behind the stories in the Quran. No way are those God’s words. God wouldn’t repeat false stories as if they’re true.
@@raularnela3654 Good morality?
#Bible
Zechariah 8:16-17 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts; do not plot evil against each other, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,” declares the Lord.
#Quran
chp 4 ver 135 O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe God, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, God takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Anyone who do a deep dive in religions and their backgrounds will get out of whatever their religion is. Its all myths..
I can see the kidney pain in christian holland. 😂
Dear friend, alla only speak arabic, quran can only be understood in arabic, islam + quran was only meant for 7th century arabic people
@@trinitymatrix9719 lol 😂 dont assume muslims to be subordinate of western Christian imperialism... We can think by our own ... Go and take care of yourself