So who enjoys Filmmaker Mode? Music & Timestamps: 0:00 Intro: Filmmaker Mode 3:35 Filmmaker should remove judder 7:18 Judder examples & scenes 8:49 Lazy Hollywood 10:12 Filmmaker Mode not all bad, but... MUSIC Lever de la Lune by Lever de la Lune Eclipse by Out of Flux Cherry Blossom by Ottom
On my 55 inch Q70T it seems to effect movies with dynamic metadata in HDR..for example certain scenes will be darker but make the characters/actors stand out brighter or it will show more detail in brighter areas
The 24p Stutter kills me. Without Motion Interpolation I cannot watch anything. Interesting about the timing with 7 Seconds and all that. I know that some Films do it perfectly, like Men in Black 3, but most Films seem to not care about inducing massive Stutter. Look at the first pan in "R.E.D" and your eyes will bleed without Motion Interpolation. Btw...you just won a Subscriber with this Video...👍
Which is worse -- soap opera effect or judder -- may depend on the content. Judder is only really noticeable during fast panning, whereas the soap opera effect -- at least on some TVs -- seems to be constantly present.
It depends on the TV. My LG IPS TV has judder on all video sources even on slow moving scenes. Thats through the Netflix or Amazon Prime apps on my TV or through my Philips UB391 Blu ray player with a high quality HDMI 2.1 Cable (Yes I know HDMI 2.1 is overkill)
Luckily some newer TV's, especially Sony, are now good enough that you can find a balance on the scale where judder is mostly removed but the smoothness doesn't become too overwhelming either.
This is my issue with dejudder. I like the way it handles panning, but it ruins eveything else for me. I would rather have judder than soap opera effect, but ultimately there is no solution for me. Honestly I'd rather have an option for a slower pixel response on my OLED. I just haaaaaate dejudder, not to mention the terrible artifacts it can produce even with the best tech. At the end of the day, you are relying on an chip to guess what those in-between frames should look like, resulting in missing elements or just garbled artifacts
I fucking hate soap opera effect. i can live with that fast panning judder because you rarely see that. but boy this god damn soap opera effect smh. It makes tv shows/movies look so cheap, make them look like B grade crap which is impossible for me to watch. So I am always at film maker mode.
Exactly why sony didn’t participate. The cinema mode on sony removes judder, banding and add depth, but is still the most accurate mode in white balance and cms.
24 fps isn't just a holdover from the age of 35mm film. It gives us the motion blur needed for a cinematic experience because of how our brains process motion. You need a true 120hz (or 240) TV to give you the 5:5 pulldown for 24fps images to be displayed properly. 24fps doesn't divide into 60hz well so Filmmaker mode doesn't work well for some scenes on these TVs. High frame rate movies (60fps+) make scenes look fake and staged.
"twenty-something" would have been ideal - there were (are?) a lot of films out of the UK that were shot in 25 fps which a top quality TV should reproduce just like they were originally intended to look projected in a theater at the original frame rate without junky processing screwing them up.
Too bad all anti judder features regardless company introduce the sopaopera effect. At least to me. I am very sensitive to this... and I dont talk about anti blur settings...
You never mention the most important question: "What did this look like originally when it was projected in theaters?" That is the main thing, the "big picture" most of these film makers are worrying about. They aren't criticizing HDR solely or even primarily because of judder on home TVs. If audiences in theaters didn't see judder, then the TVs (which are often smaller in terms of viewer's field-of-view and relatively less bright than a theater screen compared with the rest of the dark theater) should not add or introduce judder. Of all of the "sins" that today's digital system introduce (exaggerated contrast and saturation, skewing color temperature, crushing blacks, image butchering through interpolating frames that never existed, odd stuff with 3:2 translation of 24fps to a 60fps system, lord-knows-what being done to films from the UK shot in 25fps, and on and on), some judder during some pans is pretty minor. The important thing is for all TVs to offer a "non-butchered" mode, and then let users add in manipulations if they prefer. If judder bothers you and you want to turn on some sort of processing, it's your TV, go for it. My brother-in-law loves 120fps interpolation - watching a Marvel movie like that made me feel like I was standing on the all-green-screen set, not having the "cinematic experience" that the crew and post folks spent years of their lives to create, but it's his TV, so he can mangle it all he wants. But the key thing is that the TV has the baseline to present the piece as close to the original theatrical form (or the form the filmmaker originally OK'd) as possible.
In a theatre, there is flicker, which hides stutter. In this respect, it is debatable wether turning off any motion interpolation will present the piece closer to the theatrical form, because you notice a stutter that is not perceived in cinema. You would get closer to the cinema experience with blackframe insertion, but this is what filmmaker mode doesn't do, because blackframe insertion limits the brightness of the TV, while filmmakers want to offer optimal brightness. When I demonstrate switching off motion interpolation on my OLED TV, until now no one found it an improvement, they all wanted it back on.
Thats a very stupid thing to say. Which theater specifically in which country ? Every country and every cinema brand has a different type of projector system with different refresh rate. Some countries even run 60hz projectors at cinema doing 3:2 . Some cinemas run with BFI some with RFI some at 144hz some at 120hz some at 72h + BFI. So unless every cinema in the world starts using the exact same projector there is no "originally projected in theaters" pq
Adaptive framerate is not complex for movie content, why do we have to use dumbass technology? TV makers just overcomplicate everythimg instead of giving us presets for our own settings. Frame interpolation, blur reduction, dynamic contrast, antibanding, auto hdr should all be their own setting in a custom profile. Name one of the presets "filmmaker mode" OMG.
I'll take judder over soap-opera effect any day. To say that motion smoothing is a solution to judder is like saying Lysol is a solution to the smell of shit.
I'm all for modern productions adopting higher frame-rates, and for being able to watch those productions at those higher rates... I think they should pursue that! However, if I'm watching an older film that was made with 24 fps in mind, then that's how I personally want to see it. And having a mode I can turn on for that makes sense. If you'd rather watch old films with an artificially enhanced frame rate, then just don't use that mode. Sounds like having various mode options is a good way to please a wide variety of tastes.
Exactly!! I just got my new Samsung 65 Inch QLED and for the last few days I was so confused watching my favourite older horror movies, way too fluid, way too fast, soap opera like and then I found out about the filmmaker button and all was good lol I guess I’ll remove the filmmaker mode for gaming however…
@@savagemathorror4671 QLED isn't as bad as OLED for that. OLED has awful judder without any interpolation. So unless you want constant shaking like you're 2 or 3 drinks in, you have to use some smoothing. LCD isn't so bad with no help.
@@paulcox2447 that's because oled has a much faster pixel response then lcd which is great for many reasons. But inherently it causes lower frame content to produce more stutter, not really judder. But I would take that anyway if the week over that terrible soap opera effect caused by motion interpolation.
We had 16 frames per second for decades. 24 frames per second came into use for the needs of audio tracks. The hyperactive appearance of silent films is usually the result of them being incorrectly played at 24 fps or not properly converted to video formats. Presented correctly, silent films looked far better.
That is not why films are shot in 24p. The actual reason is that 24 frames/second is the lowest framerate that can trick the human eye into perceiving a smooth "moving image" rather than something more akin to a bunch of individual photos. Also, film stock used to be pretty expensive, so it was in their best interests to shoot as few frames as possible. Nowadays, films are still shot in 24p because it's what people are used to. For an example of why filmmakers aren't jumping at the opportunity to shoot at higher framerates, please take a look at the uncannily smooth mess that was the "Hobbit" films.
@@zacharywhite5631uas far as I remember, the issue with Hobbit isn't its HFR, but the lack of experience tge director had with HFR - higher framerates need meticulous work with details in frame + they added too much motion smoothing.
I remember going to see 'The Hobbit ' in the cinema shot at 60 fps......I thought it made a multimillion dollar movie look cheap especially compared to 'The lord of the Rings ' which was shot at 24fps and looked magnificent.
The Hobbit films were shot at 48 fps, not 60. Also, they had a weird in-between shutter speed, so motion blur was particularly sharp at 24p and particularly smooth at 24p; I believe not using a standard 180 degree shutter was a bigger source of the complaints. It was not a great example of HFR, and not reflective of how it is done for TV or for the rare >24p scripted content. Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk was true 60p at a high shutter speed, as will be the Avatar sequels.
The Hobbit made me look up and get a video player for my PC that has motion interpolation, and I always use it unless I watch cartoons ie: South park, Bobs burgers, Archer... I tried just looking at Avatar 2 at 24p and OMG! it looks absolutely disgusting, especially the animated characters, they look like video game characters animated at just 24fps.
Great rant. I suspect the reason old films like Jaws and Lawrence of Arabia look fantastic is that they were shot on film. With a real mechanical shutter, motion blur is the only artifact. Judder is a digital artifact created from the combination of shutter and pixel readout in modern cameras. In any event, if film makers can fix these artifacts in post before delivery to the consumer, that would be ideal. Thanks for the great video!
7 sec.panning speed is for SDR only. HDR requires much slower panning in order to avoid judder. However, difficult to avoid judder at 24p in HDR. You need to shoot at higher frame rates for HDR. That's where TrueCut enters the picture. Unfortunately for the ordinary filmmaker creating HDR content, it's way too expensive.
This is weird, the same scene in Filmmaker mode for me is judder-free. Completely judder-free. However that's on a Q90T, and it's a bit of a freak itself: it doesn't have the auto-dimming bug most Qxx(x)T models have, but it has a defective Freesync mode that changes the gamma and local dimming ;p So perhaps that's just on my freak set.
Barry Sonnenfield is the perfect example of this. Netflix's post-production team formatted the Lemony Snicket series for HDR. Sonnenfield never bothered to check in on the work in progress or even send the team a note regarding the intended appearance of the show, which was very heavy on primary colors.
Filmmaker mode looks worse than any other mode on my tv , I can't see why people make such a big deal about it, considering it makes movies look horrible
Oh, how I agree with you. 24 fps is dire and when people say it’s like the cinema, well stuff that. We have wonderful HDR modes that are so realistic until a fastish pan and it all descends into a juddering mess.
I love you, for explaining this. you know i started noticing motion "judder" when i first purchased a 144 hz screen for my pc. But for some reason my old screen that was 10 years old looked better, the 144 hz had horrible motion judder, My new hisense H9G has horrible judder, I am very sensitive to this, and i truely hate soap opera effect. So im confused what the solution is. :(
All that this video proved was that I need to hang onto my Samsung Plasma for dear life. In no way shape or form, is the "soap opera effect" ever acceptable. I'd rather have "judder" sometimes, than have the motion of the image look like crap 98% of the time. However, with my plasma, I don't have to deal with either. Guess I'll stay stuck in the past, until something else comes along....No 4K until they can resolve both of these issues.
I hope i can keep my old plasma tv. On my 16 year old 1080p Panel, Movies look perfect. When i bought it, there was no filmmaker-mode, instead movies where showen like they where made. Bought a second LED TV from the same company a few years ago and it was a disaster. I realy hate modern tv's. 🙈
I can't stand soap opera effect. Its way worse than judder IMO. I've been to the movie theaters and seen judder before I've never seen a feature film that looks artificially smooth like a second rate tv show. It feels so wrong.
That's why i love listening to professionals. You learn more from them. They know what goes on in the film making process and therefore knows where the shortcomings lie.
Filmmaker IQ has a series of good videos on why films are shot in 24FPS. They have a unique dream-like aesthetic quality that we love, every film ever made was shot on 24FPS. 30FPS looks more like a video rather than a film, though the soap opera and uncanny valley effects are still nowhere near as bad as 60FPS.
@@matheus5230 It feels like a "dream" because your brain has to resolve the missing frames.. like a radio station that keeps skipping.. there is no reason not to go with 48fps.. if you had the opportunity of watching The Hobbit on theaters that certainly was an eye opener.
@@absolutium I have a full elaborate answer to you, but TH-cam is not allowing me to post it for some reason. I post it, but it disappears after less than one minute.
@@stopthefomo dude I am very grateful I am a C.S. guy and know a lot about tech. Took some photography classes but always learning because of these videos thank you.
I didn't know filmmakers reduce the judder on post production. Now I understand why some movies are smoother than others. For example, the camera pans are perfectly smooth on the bluray editions of TLOTR
Are you sure? I find the pans when the fellowship is wandering across the mountains pretty harsh. It's my go to material to test for judder... But yes, ideally the filmmakers do this in camera, not in post production. All that is needed is a shutter speed that is typically half of the frame rate, expose for half the time the frame is shown on screen. You can increase that to exposing as long as possible, but that leads to a look that's too smooth, more like soap opera effect. Can it be done in post? Yeah. But in camera is better.
THANK YOU! Finally someone that talk about it, and say the things some other wont. And myself, I hate both soap opera effect, and of course the judder. So far the picture clarity is a lesser evil, and I will not stop using that, even when the Stranger Thing creator recommend us to not use picture clarity. Well I do NOT like the judder too. So whatever the creator says, I WILL use the setup that could make the judder less visible. But I didn't think the filmmaker mode did it worse... So thanks again, I will turn it back to only movie mode. And I wish they could upgrade the software, so it wasn't that bad. And it is smart TV, right?
Can't care to read all the comments, but there is a lot of misconceptions floating here. Thought the industry agreed about judder and stutter. THERE IS NO JUDDER IN FILM POST-PRODUCTION OR CINEMA! There is STUTTER, i.e. EVENLY-PACED stroboscopic movement that is the result of too slow a framerate that 24 fps is. Yes, there is a chart for digital film cameras that allows cinematographers to tame STUTTER! at the source. Yes, it's more priominet where there is high contrast in picture (HDR suffers greatly) or camera shutter speed is too fast, so too little motion blur. With TVs we are concerned with judder, UNEVENLY-PACED movement that is the result of playing 24fps content on fixed refresh 60 Hz TV panels. So I think the whole part about filmmakers being responsible for JUDDER is failed and unnecessary.
I prefer the 120fps rather than 24fps. I don’t understand, 24fps was 100 years ago, we’re living 2020 and 120fps is natural viewing. Why are we still living 100 years technology when it’s possible today to make viewing movies at 120fps much more enjoyable and true to quality. I don’t understand how people today can still accept and prefer 24fps rather than 120fps. Makes no sense! Then why bother making 4K, 8k etc TV’s which makes watching movies much more enjoyable with details & HDR realism and then have 24fps when its easily possible to push that enjoyment to 120fps while having 4K and HDR which is the the ultimate viewing experience.
Good information and everyone is entitled to their own preference but personally I would prefer to see a movie as close as possible to the way it was interned to be seen by the creators. I have always liked the cinematic look of 24, would rather have a little judder over soap opera and on my Samsung filmmaker mode looks better as opposed to movie or any other mode that look more artificial.
At the beginning of the video he said that directors aren't using 24fps for a creative decision, just that it is the cheapest and most familiar workflow. So sticking with it makes no sense if you are after some reference point. The reference point you'd be matching is one of money. This is like saying you don't heat your food up because Chef Boyardee isn't sold hot, therefore that's not the way it's intended to be eaten. It's only sold in a can and cold because it's cheap and convenient, like 24fps.
@@stealthis yes but filming techniques that have developed over the past 100+ years of cinema history rely on that fixed framerate. Using motion smoothing compromises those effects and techniques.
I took your advice and enabled all the corrections on my new Samsung Frame TV. I really did not enjoy the over processed look while watching Oblivion. Watch the intro with and without corrections and you will understand how bad the soap opera effect can be.
Went to the cinema the other day and you just don't get that sense of judder like you get on an oled display with native 24p content. High luminance and high persistence between frames is a real issue. I have to use a bit of motion smoothing on my set to sort it.
This is entirely a tradeoff between the glory of the look of 24fps, and dramatic camera pans. The solution will arrive soon, and that's selectable playback frame rate for movies, so most of the movie can be in the far better looking 24fps playback, and the dramatic pans can have smooth 60fps motion, and the director can select which frames play back at what frame rate. I give it 3 years.
I love soap opera effect for games, especially since some machines like PS4 and Switch that have many games stuck at horrible 30FPS. Of course I turn it off for shoes/movies and prefer natural 60/120FPS whenever possible.
@mike h once I was able to get a motion interpolation tv as a kid it made games like assassin's Creed so much better. I was able to overcompensate with the lag but the judder and non smoothness bothered me too much. Right now I have an LG C8 and this is honestly the only reason I want a CX so bad for Gsync and 4k 120hz with HDR with the new Nvidia GPUs next month. I will play around with motion interpolation again since I haven't turned on that setting since I got my OLED. I run the proper calibration settings everyone recommends. Idk how to calibrate tv for HDR. But all my high refresh rate gaming monitors with gsync and 100% sRGB.
It should be about color accuracy but FM it’s not color calibrated, colors are way of compared to my isf calibrated mode, this is lazy from lg for not providing an out of the box calibrated mode.
With all due respect, but I just re-watched Lucy on my Hisense U8K 55" TV with Filmmaker Mode, and I even made sure to reset the mode with the only change being the brightness set to 50 instead of 100 in a completely dark room. I have to say, the movie looked absolutely fantastic! I zoned in on the show-cased Time Travel scene towards the end of the movie, the one highlighted in this video, and I have to say: I could not notice any judder. The movie felt like a true 24 fps experience. The colors popped and the motion in the rotating/panning scene in aforementioned clip looked perfect. I mean no disrespect, and maybe other TVs have flaws in this regard, but I don't ever want to watch another movie without this Filmmaker mode! It truly looked brilliant. PS: My TV is NOT calibrated since I as a regular end user don't know how to calibrate a TV (nor do I want to tbh)
Thanks for making this video. So many people talk about 24 fps like it's some kind of "sacred Hollywood tradition" when in reality it results in things like action sequences where you can't tell what is going on.
That’s why Todd-AO with its 30fps was superior, but didn’t take off. It looks enough like film with less blur, but not like the crazy hyper motion soap opera look of 48-60fps.
@H MAN hmm...wonder why James Cameron decided to release Avatar 2 in 48 fps.... hmm... could it be to make the action sequences look smoother? lol especially on 3D? All kidding aside. To your point if the director and cinematographer really know what they're doing, they know how to synch the action to the frame pacing so it's still "readable" so 💯 it's possible to have a great looking action sequence in 24 fps. But there are a lot of examples where they didn't do a good job of that (looking at you Jason Bourne films). And yeah, a poor cinematographer can make a crappy looking action scene at any fps. It doesn't necessarily prove much of anything beyond the film industry consisting of some absolute masters of their craft and some complete hacks.
It's why I bought a Sony bravia HDR TV tbh. Motion is a tricky one, as most people are far less sensitive to it (likely through conditioning over the years). I do think more people will notice motion issues as they upgrade to larger, brighter and higher resolution TVs though. As someone that's grown up with video games, I'm far more happy with smoother 30 or 60 fps. Tbh, i don't see why many modern films can't now be shot at 120fps (seeing as digital cameras exist and bluray discs are getting ever larger in storage capacity). Then just leave it up to us consumers to make the choice. Have it at 24p as default, but if we want higher the 30, 60 or even 120p setting is just a button press away on the bluray player. My preferred F. R. for the vast majority of movies would be 30p. It provides the best balance of smoothness without too much of that cheap-looking 'uncanny valley' affect seen in gemini man. I think all of these film people like Tom Cruise trying to dissuade people from using motion smoothing is ridiculous. Why the hell can't we decide what we prefer? As you so rightly stated Fomo, 24p is just a remnant from a bygone age. The modern world has truly excellent cinematic gaming experiences such as 'the last of us' saga in 30/60fps to shake things up, blurring the lines between traditional filmmaking and ultra modern cgi techniques and tools.
You can't just shoot 120 fps and let viewers decide. The amount of motion blur needs to be different, for one. When shooting at 120 fps, you should set the shutter speed to 1/240 (which means it is going to be BRIGHT on set or it is going to be noise in the image. You'll also need a ton of artificial light). But that would mean when watching at 24 fps, it will look like Saving Private Ryan all the time. Cause for 24 fps it should be 1/48 instead. Also, the way the camera pans etc. needs to be different for 24 fps and 120 fps. There's also the thing with things looking too realistic at higher frame rates. In that case, the brain will be much more critical to what is seen. It works for some content of course (documentaries for example), but typically in a movie there needs to be some suspension of disbelief. Video games do not suffer from that (yet) because they don't look realistic enough anyway. Also, video games are interactive, it would be a big problem if the game doesn't react to input instantly. Different needs.
Hello, I am French and very bad at English but I love the work done on this channel. I discover new things each time so thank you !! (and Google translate)
Absolutely hate judder. Just watched chaos walking 4k blu ray Panasonic ub820 LG 65 CX and on one scene it panned, the judder was awful. Checked picture mode and as it was dolby vision it defaulted to filmmaker mode. So I'm with you on this!
So filmmaker mode turns off all the video processing features your tv comes with? Or does it also calibrate things like brightness and colour or both? If you watch a movie in filmmaker mode and then go in and turn on whatever eliminates “judder” will you loose all the other settings as well? I was all excited about filmmaker mode for a minute there... ☹️
In my TV (LG OLED) I first put filmmaker mode and then increased judder removal to Cinema mode (o smth like this). Much better than judder removal off, but still looks beautiful.
I think everyone is overthinking this. Until all these interpolation, smoothing, etc. modes were invented, films shot at 24fps looked totally fine on home display devices. On a standard North American 60hz (59.96hz) display, with the film encoded at either 23.976 (BD) or 29.97 (DVD), everything worked great. If there is weird motion artifacts on a film in that context, it was shot poorly and is just the way it is. Blame the cinematographer.
It would be cool if AI image processors could recognize when it’s a panning scene and automatically implement motion interpolation and then turn it off after the scene
THIS!!!! I watched Aliens and it looks great as it is, BUT the panning shot of the earth and space station it had a lot of judder. Turning on Motion Interpolation made that scene great but made the rest like a soap opera effect
Well they sort of already can; a lot of TV manufactureres offer independant blur- and judder reduction. So you can crank the judder MI and leave the blur reduciton alone or at a low level. It works quite well I have it set on dejudder: 4 and deblur 2 on my Panasonic Oled. They problem imo is that the AI is still not good enough yet (and maybe never will be) to implement motion interplation without visible artifacts... Or they should simply shoot panning scenes with HFR.
@@floz9718 My TV also has judder and blur as separate functions - I think most 120hz panels do. I set my blur to 0 and judder to 2 when watching low frame rate content like movies. That’s not what I was speaking of. I want a way for it to recognize when it’s a panning scene and have it put judder on full max and then turn it off completely as soon as the panning shot is over
@@Noticerofthings Ok you mean some kind of motion metadata inbeded in the video codec.That would be pretty cool but it won't help us much when the AI (like in it's current state) can't remove the judder without visible artifacts. When I can't set the dejudder any higher than 4 on my TV because then the articfacts get out of hand (and yes, even the artifacts in "only panning" scenes).
@@floz9718 Well then you’ll have to go for a high end Sony or LG for the best motion processing, which is still only just decent. I don’t see any artifacts using dejudder but I do see SOA which bothers me equally as much. The only time I see artifacts is when using the deblur on high frame-rate content.
With the Samsung s90s I just set judder at 1 or 2 in the picture clarity settings and it gets rid of the judder without over smoothing it. I don’t want over smoothing but I don’t want judder either. I wish they would just bump movies up to just 30 when making new movies. So at least TVs could handle it easier.
Thank you for destroying the mystique surrounding 24 fps! It's only "cinematic" because films use it. If not, another frame rate would be "cinematic". I play games more than watch movies, so I naturally understand that higher frame rates are better. Also, I have a camera that can't do 4K 60, and when panning or doing any kind of action, I have to drop it down to 1080p, because I need those 60 fps. And yes, you hit the nail on the head. The problems stem from (some of) the filmmakers themselves. 8K and HDR are fine and even if unnecessary to many, obviously should not make a viewing experience worse. It's up to the filmmakers to account for that. Don't simply ask for the viewer to see a degraded image simply because that hides its inherent flaws.
You could use this same argument to discount letterboxed movies. "Why are you watching this movie in fullscreen? It cuts off the sides of the picture!" "Well yeah, widescreen is only 'cinematic' because the films were made that way." If you don't watch a movie in the original aspect ratio, you're losing picture information that was part of the original film. And if you add Motion Smoothing, you're adding frames that were not part of the original film. Either way, you're not watching the film in the original format.
I turned on Filmmaker-mode because some weirdo on YT insisted it improved your picture quality. Hated it at first, but thought I just had to get used to it, so I kept it on for a week. My eyes were starting to hurt after about 30min of gaming everytime. Thought I was just overworked and tired but when I turned FMM off again the picture instantly improved, haven't had any problems with my eyes since...
Judder, stutter, soap opera effect all bad on micro led and even worse on a oled. Need a super custom mode to fine tune and save settings for each movie type. Also an affordable, reliable UHD 4K blu ray player that plays third layer every time and last longer than 7 months.
Agreed. I only have a regular HDTV (1080p), and I watched it thru Netflix (or some other streaming service), but that movie has GREAT shots that made me jar my mouth like: “What???”, “How did they get that so smooth?”
I just bought a Sony A9S OLED TV, and I'm about to take it back because it looks like crap. I'm plugging my 11-yr-old Bravia back in. It looks so much better.
The deal is, if 24p is shot properly, the judges shouldn't be an issue at all. If you pan too fast in 24p, or don't have a central subject being followed in the frame, judder will be more apparent.
It has a lot to do with what shutter angle we set, but generally it should stay a 180 or 172.8. As for the frame it rate won’t cause judder or stutter, but it does affect motion cadence. 24 was introduced for sound purposes. 23.976 was introduced for tv’s. yes technically we could shoot 60 FPS or 120fps and deliver on a native 120fps timeline. But have seen seen Gemini Man?… yeah it looked awful. The hobbit movies? Terrible. Don’t ruin movies …. Fix OLEDs.
Judder is the worst, it gives a headache and makes the picture insanely fidgety... Filmmaker can tell me whatever they want about their intentions and all but a movie should be relaxing to watch for the eyes not one hell of an anxious feeling with every camera pan...
Hollywood is not lazy, the problem is the TV manufactures are lazy on movies. for example OLEDs supper fast response time makes it a nightmare with movies, its not the movies fault its the technology used to display that movie, instant image with OLED makes it stutter..
can you pleaseee make a video explaining the difference between judder and stutter? The Rtings review scores it a 4.8 for stutter but 10 for judder. I don't get it!
Although I like a lot of your videos, there is a lot of wrong information in this video. Specifically, everything regarding film capture, recording, panning and judder. While your perspective on TV display technology is absolutely astounding, I can tell you that you have a very poor understanding of film/video capture and processing. As someone that works in post-production, I'd be happy to help you understand this stuff a bit better if you're willing. I just think it's important to let you know so that you don't continue to spread misinformation to your audience. That being said, it'd probably be good for you to either take down this video or upload an update to clarify the wrong information from this video.
I think I'm the only one in this world who likes very high frame rates and clarity over blur. The SOE can be reduced through colour grading properly to make it more "movie" like. But i simply want more clarity and higher resolution over "Cinematic" purist out there. I just wish there were filmmakers with like minded thought process
Hmm. Maybe it’s an issue with Filmmaker mode itself. I view every film on my 2017 Oled with motion settings disabled and I experience no judder problems - and I would say I’d be sensitive to it.
Some TVs can do judder free 24p, some can't. And they are pushing the "you should disable motion Interpolation. It's ruining your viewing experience" to everyone.
I can't believe it influencer finally had the balls to make video like this. Thank you for pointing out that low frame rate content is not pretty on modern displays It literally doesn't look like what actual motion looks like nor does it look like what we've been watching for the past 50 years. OLED at 24 frames is a stuttery juddery mess. It's like being drunk. There is no inherent blur, only judder. Some smoothing is needed to make it look like it does on a theatre screen.
I found this video very informative as I'm a huge movie buff since I was a kid in the early 90's and agree with a lot of what your saying. Thank you making this very clear and easy to understand. I hope they fix this in an update especially for the Samsung Q80T which I own.
On Panasonic OLED, what’s your preferred mode ? I start at first with Filmmaker mode because of all the hype about. Then when watching old 35mm movies in HDR, i started to discover the judder and stutter. I read that OLED impressive specs in brightness and response time show us what we never saw before. So i tried the True Cinema mode, Normal Mode and the old “Cinema Mode”. The later is the best for me. Panasonic OLED Cinema Mode is close to Sony OLED Expert mode on another tv in my family … What your best mode ?
On my lg c9 I get judder watching Fury Road through Vudu. The audio is also too quiet. Hoping the 4K blu ray version is better once I get my ps5 Do you have a recommendation on which streaming service is best for my 4K digital copies?
Hey buddy snap!! It such a bloody good film. Fury Road and HDR10 is pretty darn good however yes me too judder was dreadful throughout the entire film. I'm glad I'm not the only person to notice that and it's not a fault on my 4 month old 55SM8600 👍😊
Yeah, that description was all wrong. A bigger screen size relative to viewing distance does increase visibility of judder. You'll notice it less on a phone screen than 60" from a 85" TV. Resolution is way less important, as long as there are enough pixels to not introduce more blur from a too-low resolution. 1080p is pretty much fine for that, and you wouldn't see much of a difference in judder between 1080p and 8K on the same TV.
Unfortunately film makers talk about 24fps footage as being the undisputed framerate of choice and insist on everyone watching their movies at that rate. Storage capacity and streaming bandwidth aside, 120 is a good number as it can be scaled down to 24, 30, 40, and 60fps without any sync issues. I want a movie to look like I'm looking at real life through a window, there's nothing immersive about 24fps. All it does is keep a mental barrier between the viewer and the content, especially if there's any fast paced motion on screen like sports or vehicles.
which tv has the most soap opera effect and HDR and is the largest size? I'm partially color blind and the Soap Opera effect actually helps in seeing some of the colors
Great video. Love the explanations and not the brain dead "turn everything off because other people say so". Would love to hear more about the solutions that film makers can do. Is the best solution to still film in 24p but strictly follow all the judder rules? Would it help if they filmed in a higher fps or would this cause the soap opera effect, or is the soap opera effect only caused when trying to make 24p look more smooth afterwards?
well yes. Most judder I’ve seen is largely caused by a 24FPS movie playing on a 60/120hz TV. If filmmakers stopped with the “tradition” bullshit and moved to a more modern framerate (such as 30 or 60FPS) judder wouldn’t be an issue.
@@jaycorbin5361 there's a reason Gemini man and the hobbit had not the greatest receptions and it wasn't because of tradition or whatever. People who don't know anything about frame rate or Hz largely rejected those movies presentation because high frame rate just doesn't look good in movies. Makes it look like a cheap student film or a video game.
Shooting at higher frame rates is the same as artificially raising the frame rate in post (be it by the filmmaker or by the TV). That's why it is called soap opera effect. Soap operas were traditionally shot at higher frame rates (50 or 60 fps), just like the news. IMHO the best option is a) filmmaker mode ;) and b) filmmakers knowing their craft and taking care. Sometimes I see them cheap out and not use ND filters to get the shutter speed to a more reasonable level, or in reverse, use a very slow shutter speed to capture more light without having to add artificial lighting (leading to a soap opera effect, despite being shot at 24 fps). But 24 fps is the best frame rate.
QLED... OLED... Nooo thanks, I'm still using my Panny Plasma in THX mode, 24(23.976)fps @48/96hz for movie watching. I don't know why, but the flicker transports me back to cinemas and I really love that.
I think it's nice. But first thing i do when I get a new tv is that i disable all autofeatures and reconfigure color, brightness, contrast and sound frequensies. This would save some inital setup.
A little off topic, but I find most calibration settings call for “movie” mode. Now I will admit that when watching HDR or movies/shows that are streamed and high quality, it looks nice. However, I have always found that with standard SDR content, it often looks washed out. I find this to be very true with the news for example. I think because a lot of cable providers are really only giving consumers 720p, the image already looks less vibrant and once movie mode is applied, it looks terrible. I sometimes feel like I need to go standard mode but then it looks bad as I have calibrated the tv for movie mode.
Don’t have film maker mode. But I did wanted to hear your input on this. And I agree. It’s something I just can’t stand. In gaming, that’s the lag/jitter. Thanks for the video.
Thank you; this was excellent. I am looking at my first OLED, probably a Sony. Maybe the Sony A9S. My concern is stutter. I am very motion sensitive. What can I use to relieve stutter? The Rtings site shows all OLEDs have high stutter.
Lots of directors do not care for TV at all. In fact they think TV picture is garbage. They only care how movies look in a movie theatre. Also with lots of them working with streamers these days viewers get like just a little part of UHD HDR blu-ray/blu-ray quality forced tru their throat. So now we actually have garbage movie quality on our TVs hand over to us by movie directors! Movies in mediocre quality at 60p. So it rather rich them telling us to watch movies a certain way.
If I don't enable TruMotion on my LG TV I get horrible judder all over the place no matter what the source is. It looks exactly the same as those examples you showed with judder
On my lg c9 I get judder watching Fury Road through Vudu. The audio is also too quiet. Hoping the 4K blu ray version is better once I get my ps5. Do you have a recommendation for best 4K streaming service?
The frame-rate was intentionally manipulated that way in all Mad Max films. In Fury Road, around 50% of the film is not running at 24FPS. George Miller wants to understand what was happening in the shot, so he slowed it down until you could. Or if it was too well understood, he'd shorten it or he'd speed it up back towards 24FPS. Directors artistic intent.
I know about George changing the FPS, but the scene that annoys me the most is after he eats the lizard and you see his car cross the desert before the war boys get him. The car skips across the desert lol
I hate all of it... I want full motion clarity, but I can't stand the way it gives the characters and set a sense of false depth, a sort of odd 3D type look... Not a fan...
So who enjoys Filmmaker Mode? Music & Timestamps:
0:00 Intro: Filmmaker Mode
3:35 Filmmaker should remove judder
7:18 Judder examples & scenes
8:49 Lazy Hollywood
10:12 Filmmaker Mode not all bad, but...
MUSIC
Lever de la Lune by Lever de la Lune
Eclipse by Out of Flux
Cherry Blossom by Ottom
I love the explanation of how bad 24p is for motion. 60p or 120p all the way please. It's also frustrating that your videos are not 30fps. >:D hehe
On my 55 inch Q70T it seems to effect movies with dynamic metadata in HDR..for example certain scenes will be darker but make the characters/actors stand out brighter or it will show more detail in brighter areas
Fomo is Sony anti judder smoothness 1 on the Sony?
@@nomorepictures7673 Sony's Motionflow Smoothness is the anti judder levels 1-3.
The 24p Stutter kills me. Without Motion Interpolation I cannot watch anything.
Interesting about the timing with 7 Seconds and all that. I know that some Films do it perfectly, like Men in Black 3, but most Films seem to not care about inducing massive Stutter. Look at the first pan in "R.E.D" and your eyes will bleed without Motion Interpolation.
Btw...you just won a Subscriber with this Video...👍
Which is worse -- soap opera effect or judder -- may depend on the content. Judder is only really noticeable during fast panning, whereas the soap opera effect -- at least on some TVs -- seems to be constantly present.
It depends on the TV. My LG IPS TV has judder on all video sources even on slow moving scenes. Thats through the Netflix or Amazon Prime apps on my TV or through my Philips UB391 Blu ray player with a high quality HDMI 2.1 Cable (Yes I know HDMI 2.1 is overkill)
Luckily some newer TV's, especially Sony, are now good enough that you can find a balance on the scale where judder is mostly removed but the smoothness doesn't become too overwhelming either.
This is my issue with dejudder. I like the way it handles panning, but it ruins eveything else for me. I would rather have judder than soap opera effect, but ultimately there is no solution for me. Honestly I'd rather have an option for a slower pixel response on my OLED. I just haaaaaate dejudder, not to mention the terrible artifacts it can produce even with the best tech. At the end of the day, you are relying on an chip to guess what those in-between frames should look like, resulting in missing elements or just garbled artifacts
@@MrBillgonzo on which LG TV?
I fucking hate soap opera effect. i can live with that fast panning judder because you rarely see that. but boy this god damn soap opera effect smh. It makes tv shows/movies look so cheap, make them look like B grade crap which is impossible for me to watch. So I am always at film maker mode.
Judder gives me a headache.
Exactly why sony didn’t participate. The cinema mode on sony removes judder, banding and add depth, but is still the most accurate mode in white balance and cms.
24 fps isn't just a holdover from the age of 35mm film. It gives us the motion blur needed for a cinematic experience because of how our brains process motion. You need a true 120hz (or 240) TV to give you the 5:5 pulldown for 24fps images to be displayed properly. 24fps doesn't divide into 60hz well so Filmmaker mode doesn't work well for some scenes on these TVs. High frame rate movies (60fps+) make scenes look fake and staged.
You got tired of saying 24 frames per second and stopped at 20 😂
"twenty-something" would have been ideal - there were (are?) a lot of films out of the UK that were shot in 25 fps which a top quality TV should reproduce just like they were originally intended to look projected in a theater at the original frame rate without junky processing screwing them up.
Its even worse because some modern monitors still dont have full 60.0hz because of crappy old american tv framerates.
Where u at
Too bad all anti judder features regardless company introduce the sopaopera effect. At least to me. I am very sensitive to this... and I dont talk about anti blur settings...
Still I would take judder any day over that ugly soap Oprah effect!
Probably not lazy, filmmakers are passionate about their craft, I would put the blame on studio budgets more than anything
You never mention the most important question: "What did this look like originally when it was projected in theaters?" That is the main thing, the "big picture" most of these film makers are worrying about. They aren't criticizing HDR solely or even primarily because of judder on home TVs. If audiences in theaters didn't see judder, then the TVs (which are often smaller in terms of viewer's field-of-view and relatively less bright than a theater screen compared with the rest of the dark theater) should not add or introduce judder. Of all of the "sins" that today's digital system introduce (exaggerated contrast and saturation, skewing color temperature, crushing blacks, image butchering through interpolating frames that never existed, odd stuff with 3:2 translation of 24fps to a 60fps system, lord-knows-what being done to films from the UK shot in 25fps, and on and on), some judder during some pans is pretty minor. The important thing is for all TVs to offer a "non-butchered" mode, and then let users add in manipulations if they prefer. If judder bothers you and you want to turn on some sort of processing, it's your TV, go for it. My brother-in-law loves 120fps interpolation - watching a Marvel movie like that made me feel like I was standing on the all-green-screen set, not having the "cinematic experience" that the crew and post folks spent years of their lives to create, but it's his TV, so he can mangle it all he wants. But the key thing is that the TV has the baseline to present the piece as close to the original theatrical form (or the form the filmmaker originally OK'd) as possible.
In a theatre, there is flicker, which hides stutter. In this respect, it is debatable wether turning off any motion interpolation will present the piece closer to the theatrical form, because you notice a stutter that is not perceived in cinema. You would get closer to the cinema experience with blackframe insertion, but this is what filmmaker mode doesn't do, because blackframe insertion limits the brightness of the TV, while filmmakers want to offer optimal brightness.
When I demonstrate switching off motion interpolation on my OLED TV, until now no one found it an improvement, they all wanted it back on.
Thats a very stupid thing to say. Which theater specifically in which country ? Every country and every cinema brand has a different type of projector system with different refresh rate. Some countries even run 60hz projectors at cinema doing 3:2 . Some cinemas run with BFI some with RFI some at 144hz some at 120hz some at 72h + BFI. So unless every cinema in the world starts using the exact same projector there is no "originally projected in theaters" pq
Adaptive framerate is not complex for movie content, why do we have to use dumbass technology? TV makers just overcomplicate everythimg instead of giving us presets for our own settings. Frame interpolation, blur reduction, dynamic contrast, antibanding, auto hdr should all be their own setting in a custom profile. Name one of the presets "filmmaker mode" OMG.
@@danielmantione no flicker on digital projection.
@@adhdaniel On digital projection there is no need for flicker, but it often is artificially added in order to compensate for the problems of 24 fps.
I'll take judder over soap-opera effect any day. To say that motion smoothing is a solution to judder is like saying Lysol is a solution to the smell of shit.
I'm all for modern productions adopting higher frame-rates, and for being able to watch those productions at those higher rates... I think they should pursue that! However, if I'm watching an older film that was made with 24 fps in mind, then that's how I personally want to see it. And having a mode I can turn on for that makes sense. If you'd rather watch old films with an artificially enhanced frame rate, then just don't use that mode. Sounds like having various mode options is a good way to please a wide variety of tastes.
Exactly!! I just got my new Samsung 65 Inch QLED and for the last few days I was so confused watching my favourite older horror movies, way too fluid, way too fast, soap opera like and then I found out about the filmmaker button and all was good lol I guess I’ll remove the filmmaker mode for gaming however…
@@savagemathorror4671 QLED isn't as bad as OLED for that. OLED has awful judder without any interpolation. So unless you want constant shaking like you're 2 or 3 drinks in, you have to use some smoothing.
LCD isn't so bad with no help.
@@paulcox2447 that's because oled has a much faster pixel response then lcd which is great for many reasons. But inherently it causes lower frame content to produce more stutter, not really judder. But I would take that anyway if the week over that terrible soap opera effect caused by motion interpolation.
We had 16 frames per second for decades. 24 frames per second came into use for the needs of audio tracks. The hyperactive appearance of silent films is usually the result of them being incorrectly played at 24 fps or not properly converted to video formats. Presented correctly, silent films looked far better.
Interesting info, thanks!
I am so glad you corrected the facts..... especially the given reason for 24fps. If Mr Fomo had bothered to pick up a book or Google it...........
That is not why films are shot in 24p. The actual reason is that 24 frames/second is the lowest framerate that can trick the human eye into perceiving a smooth "moving image" rather than something more akin to a bunch of individual photos.
Also, film stock used to be pretty expensive, so it was in their best interests to shoot as few frames as possible.
Nowadays, films are still shot in 24p because it's what people are used to. For an example of why filmmakers aren't jumping at the opportunity to shoot at higher framerates, please take a look at the uncannily smooth mess that was the "Hobbit" films.
@@zacharywhite5631uas far as I remember, the issue with Hobbit isn't its HFR, but the lack of experience tge director had with HFR - higher framerates need meticulous work with details in frame + they added too much motion smoothing.
I remember going to see 'The Hobbit ' in the cinema shot at 60 fps......I thought it made a multimillion dollar movie look cheap especially compared to 'The lord of the Rings ' which was shot at 24fps and looked magnificent.
The Hobbit films were shot at 48 fps, not 60. Also, they had a weird in-between shutter speed, so motion blur was particularly sharp at 24p and particularly smooth at 24p; I believe not using a standard 180 degree shutter was a bigger source of the complaints. It was not a great example of HFR, and not reflective of how it is done for TV or for the rare >24p scripted content.
Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk was true 60p at a high shutter speed, as will be the Avatar sequels.
The Hobbit made me look up and get a video player for my PC that has motion interpolation, and I always use it unless I watch cartoons ie: South park, Bobs burgers, Archer... I tried just looking at Avatar 2 at 24p and OMG! it looks absolutely disgusting, especially the animated characters, they look like video game characters animated at just 24fps.
Great rant. I suspect the reason old films like Jaws and Lawrence of Arabia look fantastic is that they were shot on film. With a real mechanical shutter, motion blur is the only artifact. Judder is a digital artifact created from the combination of shutter and pixel readout in modern cameras. In any event, if film makers can fix these artifacts in post before delivery to the consumer, that would be ideal. Thanks for the great video!
7 sec.panning speed is for SDR only. HDR requires much slower panning in order to avoid judder. However, difficult to avoid judder at 24p in HDR. You need to shoot at higher frame rates for HDR. That's where TrueCut enters the picture. Unfortunately for the ordinary filmmaker creating HDR content, it's way too expensive.
This is weird, the same scene in Filmmaker mode for me is judder-free. Completely judder-free. However that's on a Q90T, and it's a bit of a freak itself: it doesn't have the auto-dimming bug most Qxx(x)T models have, but it has a defective Freesync mode that changes the gamma and local dimming ;p So perhaps that's just on my freak set.
If I saw judder when viewing the world around me I'd be at my eye doctor faster than you could say "judder".
Love how you bash judder yet this video is 24fps.
ironic and symbolic to drive the point home!
Barry Sonnenfield is the perfect example of this. Netflix's post-production team formatted the Lemony Snicket series for HDR. Sonnenfield never bothered to check in on the work in progress or even send the team a note regarding the intended appearance of the show, which was very heavy on primary colors.
Filmmaker mode looks worse than any other mode on my tv , I can't see why people make such a big deal about it, considering it makes movies look horrible
Oh, how I agree with you.
24 fps is dire and when people say it’s like the cinema, well stuff that. We have wonderful HDR modes that are so realistic until a fastish pan and it all descends into a juddering mess.
I love you, for explaining this. you know i started noticing motion "judder" when i first purchased a 144 hz screen for my pc. But for some reason my old screen that was 10 years old looked better, the 144 hz had horrible motion judder, My new hisense H9G has horrible judder, I am very sensitive to this, and i truely hate soap opera effect. So im confused what the solution is. :(
This isn't an argument against filmmaker mode, this is an argument against lazy filmmakers.
All that this video proved was that I need to hang onto my Samsung Plasma for dear life. In no way shape or form, is the "soap opera effect" ever acceptable. I'd rather have "judder" sometimes, than have the motion of the image look like crap 98% of the time. However, with my plasma, I don't have to deal with either. Guess I'll stay stuck in the past, until something else comes along....No 4K until they can resolve both of these issues.
I hope i can keep my old plasma tv. On my 16 year old 1080p Panel, Movies look perfect. When i bought it, there was no filmmaker-mode, instead movies where showen like they where made. Bought a second LED TV from the same company a few years ago and it was a disaster. I realy hate modern tv's. 🙈
Exactly my experience as well. My 100hz 2008 plasma totally beats my Samsung 60hz 2022 LED tv
I can't stand soap opera effect. Its way worse than judder IMO. I've been to the movie theaters and seen judder before I've never seen a feature film that looks artificially smooth like a second rate tv show. It feels so wrong.
That's why i love listening to professionals. You learn more from them. They know what goes on in the film making process and therefore knows where the shortcomings lie.
Thank you! This is exactly how i feel about judder and high pixel response time doesn't help. Why they don't shoot movies at 30 FPS is beyond me.
Filmmaker IQ has a series of good videos on why films are shot in 24FPS. They have a unique dream-like aesthetic quality that we love, every film ever made was shot on 24FPS.
30FPS looks more like a video rather than a film, though the soap opera and uncanny valley effects are still nowhere near as bad as 60FPS.
@@matheus5230 It feels like a "dream" because your brain has to resolve the missing frames.. like a radio station that keeps skipping.. there is no reason not to go with 48fps.. if you had the opportunity of watching The Hobbit on theaters that certainly was an eye opener.
@@absolutium I have a full elaborate answer to you, but TH-cam is not allowing me to post it for some reason. I post it, but it disappears after less than one minute.
I like that you make videos almost every day 🐱🙂☺️
"Almost", think I'll take a break :)
Stop the FOMO nooo I love your content! Thank you for keeping us up to date with tv news! It is greatly appreciated
@@stopthefomo dude I am very grateful I am a C.S. guy and know a lot about tech. Took some photography classes but always learning because of these videos thank you.
I didn't know filmmakers reduce the judder on post production. Now I understand why some movies are smoother than others. For example, the camera pans are perfectly smooth on the bluray editions of TLOTR
Are you sure? I find the pans when the fellowship is wandering across the mountains pretty harsh. It's my go to material to test for judder...
But yes, ideally the filmmakers do this in camera, not in post production. All that is needed is a shutter speed that is typically half of the frame rate, expose for half the time the frame is shown on screen. You can increase that to exposing as long as possible, but that leads to a look that's too smooth, more like soap opera effect. Can it be done in post? Yeah. But in camera is better.
Excellent content, homie! Recently found your channel and enjoy it immensely. Aloha from the Big Island!
THANK YOU!
Finally someone that talk about it, and say the things some other wont. And myself, I hate both soap opera effect, and of course the judder.
So far the picture clarity is a lesser evil, and I will not stop using that, even when the Stranger Thing creator recommend us to not use picture clarity.
Well I do NOT like the judder too. So whatever the creator says, I WILL use the setup that could make the judder less visible.
But I didn't think the filmmaker mode did it worse... So thanks again, I will turn it back to only movie mode.
And I wish they could upgrade the software, so it wasn't that bad. And it is smart TV, right?
Judder makes an expensive tv seem cheap. Is there not a way to detect when a screen pans and apply the anti judder during those scenes.
Can't care to read all the comments, but there is a lot of misconceptions floating here. Thought the industry agreed about judder and stutter. THERE IS NO JUDDER IN FILM POST-PRODUCTION OR CINEMA! There is STUTTER, i.e. EVENLY-PACED stroboscopic movement that is the result of too slow a framerate that 24 fps is. Yes, there is a chart for digital film cameras that allows cinematographers to tame STUTTER! at the source. Yes, it's more priominet where there is high contrast in picture (HDR suffers greatly) or camera shutter speed is too fast, so too little motion blur. With TVs we are concerned with judder, UNEVENLY-PACED movement that is the result of playing 24fps content on fixed refresh 60 Hz TV panels. So I think the whole part about filmmakers being responsible for JUDDER is failed and unnecessary.
Yep, agreed
I prefer the 120fps rather than 24fps. I don’t understand, 24fps was 100 years ago, we’re living 2020 and 120fps is natural viewing. Why are we still living 100 years technology when it’s possible today to make viewing movies at 120fps much more enjoyable and true to quality. I don’t understand how people today can still accept and prefer 24fps rather than 120fps. Makes no sense! Then why bother making 4K, 8k etc TV’s which makes watching movies much more enjoyable with details & HDR realism and then have 24fps when its easily possible to push that enjoyment to 120fps while having 4K and HDR which is the the ultimate viewing experience.
Good information and everyone is entitled to their own preference but personally I would prefer to see a movie as close as possible to the way it was interned to be seen by the creators. I have always liked the cinematic look of 24, would rather have a little judder over soap opera and on my Samsung filmmaker mode looks better as opposed to movie or any other mode that look more artificial.
At the beginning of the video he said that directors aren't using 24fps for a creative decision, just that it is the cheapest and most familiar workflow. So sticking with it makes no sense if you are after some reference point. The reference point you'd be matching is one of money. This is like saying you don't heat your food up because Chef Boyardee isn't sold hot, therefore that's not the way it's intended to be eaten. It's only sold in a can and cold because it's cheap and convenient, like 24fps.
@@stealthis yes but filming techniques that have developed over the past 100+ years of cinema history rely on that fixed framerate. Using motion smoothing compromises those effects and techniques.
I took your advice and enabled all the corrections on my new Samsung Frame TV. I really did not enjoy the over processed look while watching Oblivion. Watch the intro with and without corrections and you will understand how bad the soap opera effect can be.
Went to the cinema the other day and you just don't get that sense of judder like you get on an oled display with native 24p content. High luminance and high persistence between frames is a real issue. I have to use a bit of motion smoothing on my set to sort it.
This is entirely a tradeoff between the glory of the look of 24fps, and dramatic camera pans. The solution will arrive soon, and that's selectable playback frame rate for movies, so most of the movie can be in the far better looking 24fps playback, and the dramatic pans can have smooth 60fps motion, and the director can select which frames play back at what frame rate. I give it 3 years.
30 years
In this world you will nit see it but your kids maybe will xd
There is NO judder with BFI enabled (which is on by default in FILMMAKER MODE). Stutter IS still an issue, but that is inherent with 24p content.
Yeah but films in anything above 24fps looks awful, it takes away the film/cinematic feel to it
I love soap opera effect for games, especially since some machines like PS4 and Switch that have many games stuck at horrible 30FPS.
Of course I turn it off for shoes/movies and prefer natural 60/120FPS whenever possible.
@mike h once I was able to get a motion interpolation tv as a kid it made games like assassin's Creed so much better. I was able to overcompensate with the lag but the judder and non smoothness bothered me too much. Right now I have an LG C8 and this is honestly the only reason I want a CX so bad for Gsync and 4k 120hz with HDR with the new Nvidia GPUs next month. I will play around with motion interpolation again since I haven't turned on that setting since I got my OLED. I run the proper calibration settings everyone recommends. Idk how to calibrate tv for HDR. But all my high refresh rate gaming monitors with gsync and 100% sRGB.
So why is soap opera effect supposed to be bad for online competitive gaming?
My LG CX still allows motion smoothing in Filmmaker Mode
So what's the point of filmmaker mode then?
Removes any other post processing. Filmmaker Mode isn’t about Judder, it’s about color accuracy.
It should be about color accuracy but FM it’s not color calibrated, colors are way of compared to my isf calibrated mode, this is lazy from lg for not providing an out of the box calibrated mode.
Hollywood wants motion smoothing OFF.
@@miketg oh ok i see
With all due respect, but I just re-watched Lucy on my Hisense U8K 55" TV with Filmmaker Mode, and I even made sure to reset the mode with the only change being the brightness set to 50 instead of 100 in a completely dark room. I have to say, the movie looked absolutely fantastic! I zoned in on the show-cased Time Travel scene towards the end of the movie, the one highlighted in this video, and I have to say: I could not notice any judder. The movie felt like a true 24 fps experience. The colors popped and the motion in the rotating/panning scene in aforementioned clip looked perfect.
I mean no disrespect, and maybe other TVs have flaws in this regard, but I don't ever want to watch another movie without this Filmmaker mode! It truly looked brilliant.
PS: My TV is NOT calibrated since I as a regular end user don't know how to calibrate a TV (nor do I want to tbh)
Thanks for making this video. So many people talk about 24 fps like it's some kind of "sacred Hollywood tradition" when in reality it results in things like action sequences where you can't tell what is going on.
That’s why Todd-AO with its 30fps was superior, but didn’t take off. It looks enough like film with less blur, but not like the crazy hyper motion soap opera look of 48-60fps.
You can't tell what's going on because everything is cut to fast and poor shot choices...motion blur has nothing to do with that.
I know you are talking rubbish because some of the best filmed action sequences are 24fps and the worst ones are 30, 48, 60 and 120fps
@@DirectorHMAN k...
@H MAN hmm...wonder why James Cameron decided to release Avatar 2 in 48 fps.... hmm... could it be to make the action sequences look smoother? lol especially on 3D?
All kidding aside. To your point if the director and cinematographer really know what they're doing, they know how to synch the action to the frame pacing so it's still "readable" so 💯 it's possible to have a great looking action sequence in 24 fps. But there are a lot of examples where they didn't do a good job of that (looking at you Jason Bourne films). And yeah, a poor cinematographer can make a crappy looking action scene at any fps. It doesn't necessarily prove much of anything beyond the film industry consisting of some absolute masters of their craft and some complete hacks.
It's why I bought a Sony bravia HDR TV tbh. Motion is a tricky one, as most people are far less sensitive to it (likely through conditioning over the years). I do think more people will notice motion issues as they upgrade to larger, brighter and higher resolution TVs though. As someone that's grown up with video games, I'm far more happy with smoother 30 or 60 fps. Tbh, i don't see why many modern films can't now be shot at 120fps (seeing as digital cameras exist and bluray discs are getting ever larger in storage capacity). Then just leave it up to us consumers to make the choice. Have it at 24p as default, but if we want higher the 30, 60 or even 120p setting is just a button press away on the bluray player. My preferred F. R. for the vast majority of movies would be 30p. It provides the best balance of smoothness without too much of that cheap-looking 'uncanny valley' affect seen in gemini man. I think all of these film people like Tom Cruise trying to dissuade people from using motion smoothing is ridiculous. Why the hell can't we decide what we prefer? As you so rightly stated Fomo, 24p is just a remnant from a bygone age. The modern world has truly excellent cinematic gaming experiences such as 'the last of us' saga in 30/60fps to shake things up, blurring the lines between traditional filmmaking and ultra modern cgi techniques and tools.
You can't just shoot 120 fps and let viewers decide. The amount of motion blur needs to be different, for one. When shooting at 120 fps, you should set the shutter speed to 1/240 (which means it is going to be BRIGHT on set or it is going to be noise in the image. You'll also need a ton of artificial light). But that would mean when watching at 24 fps, it will look like Saving Private Ryan all the time. Cause for 24 fps it should be 1/48 instead. Also, the way the camera pans etc. needs to be different for 24 fps and 120 fps.
There's also the thing with things looking too realistic at higher frame rates. In that case, the brain will be much more critical to what is seen. It works for some content of course (documentaries for example), but typically in a movie there needs to be some suspension of disbelief. Video games do not suffer from that (yet) because they don't look realistic enough anyway. Also, video games are interactive, it would be a big problem if the game doesn't react to input instantly. Different needs.
Hello, I am French and very bad at English but I love the work done on this channel. I discover new things each time so thank you !! (and Google translate)
On LG OLED I can set de-judder in Filmmaker mode. Whats the problem?
The problem is that it looks bad anyway.
Absolutely hate judder. Just watched chaos walking 4k blu ray Panasonic ub820 LG 65 CX and on one scene it panned, the judder was awful. Checked picture mode and as it was dolby vision it defaulted to filmmaker mode. So I'm with you on this!
So filmmaker mode turns off all the video processing features your tv comes with? Or does it also calibrate things like brightness and colour or both? If you watch a movie in filmmaker mode and then go in and turn on whatever eliminates “judder” will you loose all the other settings as well? I was all excited about filmmaker mode for a minute there... ☹️
In my TV (LG OLED) I first put filmmaker mode and then increased judder removal to Cinema mode (o smth like this). Much better than judder removal off, but still looks beautiful.
I think everyone is overthinking this. Until all these interpolation, smoothing, etc. modes were invented, films shot at 24fps looked totally fine on home display devices. On a standard North American 60hz (59.96hz) display, with the film encoded at either 23.976 (BD) or 29.97 (DVD), everything worked great. If there is weird motion artifacts on a film in that context, it was shot poorly and is just the way it is. Blame the cinematographer.
It would be cool if AI image processors could recognize when it’s a panning scene and automatically implement motion interpolation and then turn it off after the scene
THIS!!!! I watched Aliens and it looks great as it is, BUT the panning shot of the earth and space station it had a lot of judder. Turning on Motion Interpolation made that scene great but made the rest like a soap opera effect
Well they sort of already can; a lot of TV manufactureres offer independant blur- and judder reduction. So you can crank the judder MI and leave the blur reduciton alone or at a low level.
It works quite well I have it set on dejudder: 4 and deblur 2 on my Panasonic Oled.
They problem imo is that the AI is still not good enough yet (and maybe never will be) to implement motion interplation without visible artifacts... Or they should simply shoot panning scenes with HFR.
@@floz9718 My TV also has judder and blur as separate functions - I think most 120hz panels do. I set my blur to 0 and judder to 2 when watching low frame rate content like movies. That’s not what I was speaking of. I want a way for it to recognize when it’s a panning scene and have it put judder on full max and then turn it off completely as soon as the panning shot is over
@@Noticerofthings Ok you mean some kind of motion metadata inbeded in the video codec.That would be pretty cool but it won't help us much when the AI (like in it's current state) can't remove the judder without visible artifacts. When I can't set the dejudder any higher than 4 on my TV because then the articfacts get out of hand (and yes, even the artifacts in "only panning" scenes).
@@floz9718 Well then you’ll have to go for a high end Sony or LG for the best motion processing, which is still only just decent. I don’t see any artifacts using dejudder but I do see SOA which bothers me equally as much. The only time I see artifacts is when using the deblur on high frame-rate content.
With the Samsung s90s I just set judder at 1 or 2 in the picture clarity settings and it gets rid of the judder without over smoothing it. I don’t want over smoothing but I don’t want judder either. I wish they would just bump movies up to just 30 when making new movies. So at least TVs could handle it easier.
My bluray player has an option that allows me to forze a 24hz output. This option it's very helpfully to reduce the judder at minimum
Which one?
why does a brighter image make judder more apparent?
Thank you for destroying the mystique surrounding 24 fps! It's only "cinematic" because films use it. If not, another frame rate would be "cinematic". I play games more than watch movies, so I naturally understand that higher frame rates are better. Also, I have a camera that can't do 4K 60, and when panning or doing any kind of action, I have to drop it down to 1080p, because I need those 60 fps. And yes, you hit the nail on the head. The problems stem from (some of) the filmmakers themselves. 8K and HDR are fine and even if unnecessary to many, obviously should not make a viewing experience worse. It's up to the filmmakers to account for that. Don't simply ask for the viewer to see a degraded image simply because that hides its inherent flaws.
You could use this same argument to discount letterboxed movies.
"Why are you watching this movie in fullscreen? It cuts off the sides of the picture!"
"Well yeah, widescreen is only 'cinematic' because the films were made that way."
If you don't watch a movie in the original aspect ratio, you're losing picture information that was part of the original film. And if you add Motion Smoothing, you're adding frames that were not part of the original film. Either way, you're not watching the film in the original format.
8:43 This is really interesting stuff! 👍
I turned on Filmmaker-mode because some weirdo on YT insisted it improved your picture quality.
Hated it at first, but thought I just had to get used to it, so I kept it on for a week. My eyes were starting to hurt after about 30min of gaming everytime.
Thought I was just overworked and tired but when I turned FMM off again the picture instantly improved, haven't had any problems with my eyes since...
Judder, stutter, soap opera effect all bad on micro led and even worse on a oled.
Need a super custom mode to fine tune and save settings for each movie type.
Also an affordable, reliable UHD 4K blu ray player that plays third layer every time and last longer than 7 months.
I still dont understand the soap opera effect and nobody seems to be able to demononstrate it ? 😢
What do you think of the 4k 60fps of Gemini Man? To me it's the very best looking movie on the format. Simply stunning.
Agreed. I only have a regular HDTV (1080p), and I watched it thru Netflix (or some other streaming service), but that movie has GREAT shots that made me jar my mouth like: “What???”, “How did they get that so smooth?”
I just bought a Sony A9S OLED TV, and I'm about to take it back because it looks like crap. I'm plugging my 11-yr-old Bravia back in. It looks so much better.
The deal is, if 24p is shot properly, the judges shouldn't be an issue at all. If you pan too fast in 24p, or don't have a central subject being followed in the frame, judder will be more apparent.
It has a lot to do with what shutter angle we set, but generally it should stay a 180 or 172.8. As for the frame it rate won’t cause judder or stutter, but it does affect motion cadence. 24 was introduced for sound purposes. 23.976 was introduced for tv’s. yes technically we could shoot 60 FPS or 120fps and deliver on a native 120fps timeline. But have seen seen Gemini Man?… yeah it looked awful. The hobbit movies? Terrible. Don’t ruin movies …. Fix OLEDs.
Judder is the worst, it gives a headache and makes the picture insanely fidgety... Filmmaker can tell me whatever they want about their intentions and all but a movie should be relaxing to watch for the eyes not one hell of an anxious feeling with every camera pan...
This video wasn't filmed in 60fps 😒
Hollywood is not lazy, the problem is the TV manufactures are lazy on movies. for example OLEDs supper fast response time makes it a nightmare with movies, its not the movies fault its the technology used to display that movie, instant image with OLED makes it stutter..
Why did I just spend a fortune on a fancy TV for everything to look worse 😂
can you pleaseee make a video explaining the difference between judder and stutter? The Rtings review scores it a 4.8 for stutter but 10 for judder. I don't get it!
Although I like a lot of your videos, there is a lot of wrong information in this video. Specifically, everything regarding film capture, recording, panning and judder. While your perspective on TV display technology is absolutely astounding, I can tell you that you have a very poor understanding of film/video capture and processing.
As someone that works in post-production, I'd be happy to help you understand this stuff a bit better if you're willing. I just think it's important to let you know so that you don't continue to spread misinformation to your audience. That being said, it'd probably be good for you to either take down this video or upload an update to clarify the wrong information from this video.
And I watch everything with interpolation on. I want to see everything. I don't like judder or motion blur.
Judder is my biggest gripe watching 24Hz content on a modern TV, very unpleasant.
24p is simply crap on Sample and Hold Displays like LCD and Oled. It never was an issue with CRT and Plasma Displays
@@sonyx4500 yeah it’s a real pain
60ps is not cinematic either, Plasma motion was accurate this is the tv industry trying to force the creators to a format that looks fake and cheap
Yeah my plasma TV had the smoothest motion ever. For games and films. Maybe cuz of the high refresh rate
I think I'm the only one in this world who likes very high frame rates and clarity over blur. The SOE can be reduced through colour grading properly to make it more "movie" like. But i simply want more clarity and higher resolution over "Cinematic" purist out there.
I just wish there were filmmakers with like minded thought process
Matching the FPS to the refresh rate of the screen fixes any kind of judder, 24 FPS looks smooth when you match it
Hmm. Maybe it’s an issue with Filmmaker mode itself. I view every film on my 2017 Oled with motion settings disabled and I experience no judder problems - and I would say I’d be sensitive to it.
Some TVs can do judder free 24p, some can't. And they are pushing the "you should disable motion Interpolation. It's ruining your viewing experience" to everyone.
This makes sense. I believe they want to cover up their editing failures and money savings.
Well, I for one agree with Barry Sonnenfeld that HDR (as presented today) is mostly crap...
I can't believe it influencer finally had the balls to make video like this.
Thank you for pointing out that low frame rate content is not pretty on modern displays
It literally doesn't look like what actual motion looks like nor does it look like what we've been watching for the past 50 years.
OLED at 24 frames is a stuttery juddery mess. It's like being drunk. There is no inherent blur, only judder.
Some smoothing is needed to make it look like it does on a theatre screen.
I found this video very informative as I'm a huge movie buff since I was a kid in the early 90's and agree with a lot of what your saying. Thank you making this very clear and easy to understand. I hope they fix this in an update especially for the Samsung Q80T which I own.
On Panasonic OLED, what’s your preferred mode ?
I start at first with Filmmaker mode because of all the hype about.
Then when watching old 35mm movies in HDR, i started to discover the judder and stutter. I read that OLED impressive specs in brightness and response time show us what we never saw before.
So i tried the True Cinema mode, Normal Mode and the old “Cinema Mode”. The later is the best for me.
Panasonic OLED Cinema Mode is close to Sony OLED Expert mode on another tv in my family …
What your best mode ?
On my lg c9 I get judder watching Fury Road through Vudu. The audio is also too quiet. Hoping the 4K blu ray version is better once I get my ps5
Do you have a recommendation on which streaming service is best for my 4K digital copies?
Haven't watched it on streaming services, but via my NAS and it was ridiculously good
Hey buddy snap!! It such a bloody good film. Fury Road and HDR10 is pretty darn good however yes me too judder was dreadful throughout the entire film. I'm glad I'm not the only person to notice that and it's not a fault on my 4 month old 55SM8600 👍😊
Mark Jaeger indicates that increasing camera resolution reduces pan time, whereas you appear to be saying the opposite. Which is correct please?
Yeah, that description was all wrong. A bigger screen size relative to viewing distance does increase visibility of judder. You'll notice it less on a phone screen than 60" from a 85" TV. Resolution is way less important, as long as there are enough pixels to not introduce more blur from a too-low resolution. 1080p is pretty much fine for that, and you wouldn't see much of a difference in judder between 1080p and 8K on the same TV.
and also...judder would not be an issue at all with a tv that does 5:5 pulldown...which the LG oleds do. Stutter could be an issue though.
How about filming films in 120fps and then have a setting that chops the footage down to 24fps for people that want to watch slideshows?
THIS is exactly what I would do
Unfortunately film makers talk about 24fps footage as being the undisputed framerate of choice and insist on everyone watching their movies at that rate. Storage capacity and streaming bandwidth aside, 120 is a good number as it can be scaled down to 24, 30, 40, and 60fps without any sync issues.
I want a movie to look like I'm looking at real life through a window, there's nothing immersive about 24fps. All it does is keep a mental barrier between the viewer and the content, especially if there's any fast paced motion on screen like sports or vehicles.
which tv has the most soap opera effect and HDR and is the largest size?
I'm partially color blind and the Soap Opera effect actually helps in seeing some of the colors
maybe it's better to invest the money in the color seeing glasses
Great video. Love the explanations and not the brain dead "turn everything off because other people say so".
Would love to hear more about the solutions that film makers can do. Is the best solution to still film in 24p but strictly follow all the judder rules? Would it help if they filmed in a higher fps or would this cause the soap opera effect, or is the soap opera effect only caused when trying to make 24p look more smooth afterwards?
well yes. Most judder I’ve seen is largely caused by a 24FPS movie playing on a 60/120hz TV. If filmmakers stopped with the “tradition” bullshit and moved to a more modern framerate (such as 30 or 60FPS) judder wouldn’t be an issue.
@@jaycorbin5361 there's a reason Gemini man and the hobbit had not the greatest receptions and it wasn't because of tradition or whatever. People who don't know anything about frame rate or Hz largely rejected those movies presentation because high frame rate just doesn't look good in movies. Makes it look like a cheap student film or a video game.
Shooting at higher frame rates is the same as artificially raising the frame rate in post (be it by the filmmaker or by the TV). That's why it is called soap opera effect. Soap operas were traditionally shot at higher frame rates (50 or 60 fps), just like the news.
IMHO the best option is a) filmmaker mode ;) and b) filmmakers knowing their craft and taking care. Sometimes I see them cheap out and not use ND filters to get the shutter speed to a more reasonable level, or in reverse, use a very slow shutter speed to capture more light without having to add artificial lighting (leading to a soap opera effect, despite being shot at 24 fps). But 24 fps is the best frame rate.
QLED... OLED... Nooo thanks, I'm still using my Panny Plasma in THX mode, 24(23.976)fps @48/96hz for movie watching. I don't know why, but the flicker transports me back to cinemas and I really love that.
I’m with you on this one, FOMO! I had a feeling Filmmaker Mode was going to be meh.
I think it's nice. But first thing i do when I get a new tv is that i disable all autofeatures and reconfigure color, brightness, contrast and sound frequensies. This would save some inital setup.
A little off topic, but I find most calibration settings call for “movie” mode. Now I will admit that when watching HDR or movies/shows that are streamed and high quality, it looks nice. However, I have always found that with standard SDR content, it often looks washed out. I find this to be very true with the news for example. I think because a lot of cable providers are really only giving consumers 720p, the image already looks less vibrant and once movie mode is applied, it looks terrible. I sometimes feel like I need to go standard mode but then it looks bad as I have calibrated the tv for movie mode.
Don’t have film maker mode. But I did wanted to hear your input on this. And I agree. It’s something I just can’t stand. In gaming, that’s the lag/jitter. Thanks for the video.
I'm just amazed on your knowledge in this industry has a whole. Mind boggling.. I love it
Thank you; this was excellent. I am looking at my first OLED, probably a Sony. Maybe the Sony A9S. My concern is stutter. I am very motion sensitive. What can I use to relieve stutter? The Rtings site shows all OLEDs have high stutter.
They do have high stutter. If stutter bothers you I suggest LG. There dejudder is more effective and can be separated from the motion smoothing.
Lots of directors do not care for TV at all. In fact they think TV picture is garbage. They only care how movies look in a movie theatre. Also with lots of them working with streamers these days viewers get like just a little part of UHD HDR blu-ray/blu-ray quality forced tru their throat. So now we actually have garbage movie quality on our TVs hand over to us by movie directors! Movies in mediocre quality at 60p. So it rather rich them telling us to watch movies a certain way.
If I don't enable TruMotion on my LG TV I get horrible judder all over the place no matter what the source is. It looks exactly the same as those examples you showed with judder
On my lg c9 I get judder watching Fury Road through Vudu. The audio is also too quiet. Hoping the 4K blu ray version is better once I get my ps5. Do you have a recommendation for best 4K streaming service?
The frame-rate was intentionally manipulated that way in all Mad Max films. In Fury Road, around 50% of the film is not running at 24FPS. George Miller wants to understand what was happening in the shot, so he slowed it down until you could. Or if it was too well understood, he'd shorten it or he'd speed it up back towards 24FPS. Directors artistic intent.
I know about George changing the FPS, but the scene that annoys me the most is after he eats the lizard and you see his car cross the desert before the war boys get him. The car skips across the desert lol
Netflix is the best when talking 4K/UHD and/or HDR. Generally I have seen the best image quality here. HBO is way worse.
i actually love the "Soap opera" effect. Mostly because i do not enjoy Motion blur, nor judder.
I hate all of it... I want full motion clarity, but I can't stand the way it gives the characters and set a sense of false depth, a sort of odd 3D type look... Not a fan...
L take. Movies aren't supposed to look "realistic." HFR and motion smoothing should be relegated to gaming, sports and the news.