Six pack or eight pack lifts suck because people are bad at queuing and don't like sitting next to strangers. On paper they look fantastic but they don't account for how people actually behave.
Guess how many ticket scanning gates the V8 at Perisher has, I’ll wait Time’s up! If you guess 8, you’d be wrong. The correct answer is 6, and as a result that lift is extremely inefficient, with it being rare to see a full chair of 8.
What is going on with Americans. 6 and 8 packs are always filled in European resorts. At least with the same percentage as 4 packs. We never have any lines really.
@@EmotionalWeather It's the same reason trains don't work in America. A lot of Americans are entitled idiots who demand their own space at all times even if it makes everything worse for everyone.
7:00. I'm an advanced-level skier now but I was a beginner not that long ago and I remember how stressful getting on and off chair lifts was early in my learning days. Fixed-grip lifts were extra terrifying because the chairs came at you so quickly. I'm all for detachable lifts with slow loading speeds at beginner areas. That is especially true in places where the same lift services beginner slopes and access to higher mountain lifts. Lifts that load quickly inevitably end up stopping frequently when beginners slip up, frustrating everyone in the process. Better to have slower loading so beginners can get on more easily and everyone else can get up the slope and away to higher mountain lifts.
Same! I remember learning to snowboard at Loveland in the early 2000s and just having a yard sale over and over and over again trying to learn to unload on a fixed grip or having to crawl away as fast as possible so they wouldn’t stop the lift. They were the bane of my existence and I almost wanted to give up just because of that 😂
@@johns3106exactly what does it take 2-3 days for most people to learn? Maybe a week of riding if you’re slow. How are you gonna punish people for the next few decades of their riding career just to make it easier for first day riders to get on/off the lift. 😭
Attitash only got lift upgrades after multiple horribly-run seasons where snowmaking and staffing was lacking. Vail basically had to beg the locals to renew their passes. Vail only puts money into their destination resorts. If you are a local resort, you have last choice
In today’s world where air travel keeps expanding Vail will continue to invest more in a few big resorts as they will generate significantly more revenue
The Sundown Express at Vail allows skiers to do laps on runs where it was previously impossible, because you would previously have to ski all the way down to the High Noon Express, which would bring you back next to the Mountaintop Express.
That’s literally the opposite of what you want. The bubble becomes a sail and prevents the lift from running. If you have a bubble in a high wind area, it’s going to be offline alot
We imagine that may have been why the old ownership held off on a detachable for so long, but it’s way nicer to have a halved ride time on that exposed line.
@@TheRidersChoice Well, the workaround for that on the main face Bluebird Express Bubble was hydraulics that automatically closed the bubbles to keep them from scooping up air. Unfortunately the added complexity of the hydraulics led to downtime issues anyway.
@@Guy_Incognito118 the bubbles when closed still are a big wind drag. You can’t overcome physics. They only somewhat can overcome wind because they are so much heavier than regular chairs
I found this video very informative. I am just amazed at how extensive Vail's reach has grown. I have been skiing for over 50 years and it's like you mentioned almost every resort I ever skied at in this video. It would be like going to a major airport and seeing flights from only one airline. No wonder the prices are so crazy there's no competition.
From European perspective, North American skii infractructure looks prehistoric. Those chairlifts look like they were built in 1960s and never upgraded.
I used to go to Okemo every weekend couple years ago. I stop going because the crowds were out of control. Sunburst six is a big plus to this resort, but always have a lot people. The way I used to skip the line, I used to take the Green Ridge Triple, because no one used to take that lift mid mountain because it is windy and slow, but honestly that was the only way to enjoy the resort. Now that lift was replaced by the Evergreen Summit Express, this created a lot people mid mountain and it is really no that flat to move around and wait in line. I do not think I will go to Okemo because of crowds and I wouldn't get enough runs during a day.
It's astonishing the amount of leisure money available for mountain-based activities: real estate, luxury SUV, equipment, passes, & it's all based on a huge weather gamble: rain, fog, sleet, snow, high wind. If you're really lucky & time it just right, then you get bluebird powder, but you also have to share it with 40,000 people & long lift lines that can be seen from space. 😂
I've been skiing for SIX decades and my technique is usually the best on the hill (yes it is modern). I've seen it all in North America. For instance I skied Snowmass before it was a ski area. Where do I ski now? All of the small to medium ski areas. Why??? We need to make skiing affordable again. I'll gladly pay a $50 lift ticket that have old but safe lifts, and I will never pay more than a $100 for a lift ticket. I like double or triple chairs where they are slow and you just might meet someone new and maybe have a beer with them at the end of the day, and make a long-term friendship.. Slow chairs or surface lifts prevent crowds and the wearing out of snow because of too many people. You will meet locals instead of spoiled, out of touch people. There are always powder stashes that last for days. I've skied big mountains like Jackson Hole and Vail; yet the powder there is always chopped up by teenage boys that are trying to impress their girlfriends. The best places to ski are usually at the top of a pass on National Forest land that doesn't have any private land to develop for condos or homes. Unfortunately, Colorado no longer has ski areas like Berthoud Pass or Geneva Basin (where I learned to ski). However, Loveland and Monarch are still going strong. So support areas like Sunlight and Powderhorn in Colorado. Wyoming has other ski areas besides Jackson Hole. Montana and Idaho have very good small ski areas. Final word...stop making they maga-conglomerated ski areas even richer!!!
“30 year old quads are at the end of their service life”, meanwhile Nakiska laughs as it’s 1987-vintage quads keep spinning and spinning, with only one chair having been replaced since it opened (the Gold triple, which was re-opened at Fernie as Polar Peak).
6:45 this is what I've been saying! My local (Nub's Nob, MI) just replaced an old fixed grip lift with a new fixed grip arguing that a high speed lift was unnecessary in their postings where they announced it. It's essentially the main artery for people to get to the top of hill from the parking lot and not only is it zero improvement over the old lift, the drop at the top off the lift is even higher and steeper than before making for a pretty intimidating experience for new skiers and snowboarders. I went on it for the first time last week and while I was at the top getting ready to start my run I watched three chairs in a row behind me with people wiping out as they got off the unloading ramp. What a missed opportunity. What's worse is that now that the money is sunk, this lift is going to be there for the next 30+ years now with no chance of being upgraded to a detachable high speed lift that is more user friendly.
Vail has killed skiing for anyone but the rich. As someone who grew up skiing in Colorado it’s just too expensive for new normal families to try and learn skiing ⛷️. I don’t have a single friend or acquaintance that is a normal income family that skies. Even one that lives in Utah, Salt Lake… if you don’t have a pass don’t go basically. Lift tickets at AAA resorts are bonkers for a family of 4 or 5 not to,mention all the costs. It really is the sport of the rich 🤑
At one point, I actually worked for Vail at Peak 8, Breck, on my off-days at Copper. Burnt the candle at both ends. Was traffic control foreman at Copper 03'-05'. My bosses at Copper came from Breck. I miss the mountains. Would move back in a heart-beat. Vail bought a resort here in Mn, Afton Alps. I haven't been there since the exchange. Great video. Cheers. AMA.
I board primarily at Keystone and go all the way to the back, so taking Wayback to get there and leave isn't really an issue, but now with the new lift at Bergman, we will have to see how congested it gets.
@@laurak8240 It's very slow and serves a large portion of upper-mountain terrain meaning that it gets extremely crowded very quickly. Simply even converting it to a general 2-person lift would dramaticaly improve capacity.
@@Razor_Crest I see. I've never seen it too crowded and like the unique ride experience. Is it better than a normal lift in wind? Because that part of the mountain is really windy pretty much all the time, it seems.
@@laurak8240 The wind is better but only slightly because there's no tree cover in the second half of the T-bar as it's an upper-mountain access lift anyways. However, it's much worse as far as overall ride experience because it eliminates your ability to rest on your way up the ride since you're standing up and trying to keep you and your partner from falling off. It's also much slower than a standard slow lift.
A half day of skiing at Whistler starting at 12:30 pm until 3:00 pm. That is 150 minutes of skiing. The cost $186 . . . . We had already done the drive and were doing a half day to test a recovering broken ankle. No love here!!! Vail, may you fail!!! HARD
I’ve always wondered why this is. Mammoth routinely clocks 1 million visits each year yet they run their lifts into the ground. I think it has something to do with California not being a big destination market for people outside of California so it’s treated as a captive market. Why upgrade lifts in Tahoe or mammoth when the skiers from the Bay Area or so cal are going to show up no matter what? And skiers from the Midwest, Texas and the east coast are going to go to Colorado or Utah no matter what gets spent in California.
@@dhowe5180 they also simply keep a significantly lower % of the dollars they make after California tax then they would in other states. Could also be related-to not wanting to invest 15mil$ chairlifts in resorts that may see inconsistent snowfall
@@stevedrulias9888 but Vail didn’t invest in any infrastructure on a weekend or a holiday. There’s 600,000 people at Heavenly and around the neighborhood. Just trying to park you sit in traffic for four hours just to go 8 feet up ski run Boulevard to be turned around Vail sucks it destroyed Tahoe …… Vail stay in your lane
Restaurant. Retail. Real Estate. Skiing as entertainment With NO Dues. Skid around and go fer Lunch. No Retail space left unaccounted for. Everyone a Winner. You're All Revenue Units Now! You Don't Need a Clue to Go Skiing. Mid-Fats Forever "My Fats Carve; Dude". Snowmaking for the Parks: Screw the Runs. Phaough! ... After Fifty Seasons and 5,000 Days I bin there done that.This used to be a Life! But this all fits our world's oceans full of jelly fish and Expedient Facts.
I’m still waiting for the Mt Perisher six pack down here in Australia. Got approved like 2 years ago. Edit: just got announced that it will be open for the 2025 winter
9:08, big gray box before the upper terminal. Beautiful mtu-Rolls-Royce generator backing up McCoy Park. Keep an eye out for those Rolls-Royce generators at areas across the US. Yippee!
With the amount of revenue they have coming in they should really put some into their staff. Add an additional person at the top and bottom of each lift to help with crowd control. Give them a mega phone and make sure every chair is going up full, would make a massive difference. Also why not put some tvs out near the waiting line of the lifts that have instructional displays of getting on and off lift ( also basic etiquette) and signs asking people to please fill each chair; your friends will be there for you at the top! And the extra person at the top to ensure that the ding dongs waiting for there friends at the top are out the unloading zone.
We have lifts in dire need of replacement at the 3 resorts Vail own in Australia. Yet year after year they suck the profits out and fail to invest in new lifts. Mt Hotham doesn't have any high speed chairs. Perisher still has double and triple chairs and plenty of T-Bars.
So traffic on the Wayback lift at Keystone will increase. The line is already too long and the lift too slow. Upgrading the Wayback lift needs to be a priority at Keystone.
You should see Town Lift at PC in the summer. You will drastically change your viewpoint. For the record, there are stations that are quieter than others because it doesn't have the electric motor.
Hey I absolutely love ur guys channel and keep up the great work! just a question, what mountain on the ikon pass would you recommend for double black to extreme terrain? Trying to book our trip
Thank you! There are a ton of great extreme mountains on Ikon, just check our website for any resort that's on the Ikon Pass and has a 9 or 10 for challenge. Some good examples are Jackson Hole, Snowbird, and Revelstoke, but there are too many to count.
This is a paid commercial for Vail. Guaranteed this is a Vail produced & sponsored channel. Nothing wrong with promoting yourself - just disappointing they do it by creating “so called” independent channels to give them positive reviews.
My problem is the newer ones looks alike like the old ones. They really should give it a touch of modernity and cool in design. I wouldn't mind myself of an RGB ligihting. But at least have the design like the Dopplemayr in Highlands, MI Camelot 6 lift at least the designe then we can talk about the automation safety aspect later
I was on ski day with my buddies last season at okemo (I think it’s a vail resort) any way we were on our way up to the summit and about 3/4 the way up it got crazy windy and they started making snow no one thought to stop the lift anyway it was so windy mixed with the snow it got to point where you couldn’t see 3 feet infront of you they’re super disorganized
@@Huntersprojects you don’t need to ride the lift bruh. You can look out your window and determine if you want to ride in those conditions. “It’s too cold for me personally, shut down the lift for everybody else!” -you
There actually is a need to run a lift if they are making snow under it. Keeping the lift running keeps snow from building up on the cables and chairs that would otherwise cause problems when starting a lift after the snowmaking is done. Unlike natural snow, man made snow would form a crust around the parts leading to potential derailment of the cable or jamming of the release of a detachable chair.
Increased capacity could also be less effective due to induced demand. If folks know that there is a bigger faster visit, they will assume it’s going to take less time so they will flock to it.
I wish Vail would expand into Quebec, most resorts have insanely outdated infrastructure and lifts, and season pass prices for what you get are terrible
If you get the full Epic Pass, you get access to the RCR resorts in Quebec. But yeah, it seems like those resorts haven’t gotten any serious investments in decades.
@@PeakRankings I did not know that, might have to pick up an epic now now. Thanks! Also keep up the great content, you guys are the best ski resort reviewers on the platform!
I just bought vail resorts stock so yay for dividends and buybacks. However I don’t like skiing at vail ski resorts. You can smell the cheapness at most of their resorts. But I do appreciate how much they invest in lift infrastructure especially when you see all the obsolete and scary lifts built in the 1970s at many independent (read poor) resorts. Somewhere there should be a happy medium.
I'll tell you what they were thinking. They knew that ordering all of the manufacturing capacity from the lift manufacturers would prevent any other mountains from being able to get the lifts that they needed.
Vail isnt really a ski resport company. They are a realestate company. Their buggest assets are the properties they own, and for them the shops, and condos are their biggest concern. Lift access ski areas are simply the activity that draws people to come lease a ski condo, or to entice other corporate entities to lease commercial property. So lift improvements are made with relestate investment in mind first. look at Kirkwoods master plan, and you can see that their village is planned to be double in size, with additional investment in the learning center. The reason this isnt being built anytime soon is simply because there isnt a sizable demand for the additional shops and condos. This inturn drives the decision to not upgrade lifts on the mountain (outside of normal maintenance).
If you take a look at their financials, Vail Resorts actually does make the vast majority of its revenue through on-mountain operations, including tickets, dining, and retail. But real estate and lodging are still responsible for a sizable minority (~10%) of Vail's revenue.
I don't believe they own the condos, at least not in the CO resorts I frequent. They make money off of management services for these privately owned properties.
But they do have a ton of other operations like ski rentals and retail. That's what sucks the most about Vail inc. They kill the local competition. The only thing that would change that is local laws and regulations, which I think can be done if you have the right people in office vs corporate bootlickers.
@@JimmyFlim in Tahoe Vail owns the property that the villages sit on at Northstar, Kirkwood, and heavenly. I mostly know Kirkwood as thats where I worked for 3 years, but there are properties further down Kirkwood Valley that aren't owned by vail. same for heavenly where vail owns the village proper, but not the land on the lake side of US50. To further confuse things I know retail locations can either be a full leased store space, leased but operated by vail, or filling owned and operated by vail, so some of their retail is also a real-estate play as well.
@@bassman87 Oh damn, that sucks. Maybe they do own properties that I'm not aware of? I'm mostly familiar with Keystone and everything there is privately owned as far as I know. The only stake they have in it is their "resort management company," KRPM, which takes a 40% cut for renting out and managing privately owned condos. And they don't have a great market share since they're overpriced and there's better mgmt options. I hope the local communities eventually stand up and vote in politicians that will make the necessary changes to end these unfair practices, especially when it comes to retail. Hyper-capitalism can really fuck things up and it needs to change.
If detachable lifts are STILL too high-tech: why not have a mechanical pacing bunny, like a grayhound track, for skiers to pole along with and board with a running start onto a full-speed chair? Same effect as slow-boarding detachable. Just chase the bunny, and when the chair hits your calf sit down (quickly!)
It all boils down to all US ski resorts suffering from the insular American corporate mindset in that they weren't designed very well from the beginning, and then developed piecemeal, and resort and company management still have little to no idea how to effectively run a ski resort, Maybe before they built them if American ski resort designers and American ski resort management had travelled and seen and learnt how major French, Austrian and Swiss ski resorts are designed they might have done things better, better still they could have employed French, Austrian, Swiss, and even Italian ski resort designers to come to the US and act as consultants to show them how they could design an efficient world class ranked ski resort in the US terrain, but then that would be 'un American' for them to do it. American skiers are also partially to blame, as most of them frankly have little to no idea how efficient major European ski resorts are, American skiers can't think beyond their powder snow and back bowls, and can't see the near third world status of their counties major ski resorts with its inadequate infrastructure and facilities, and the exorbitant prices.
Euro good. America bad, right? I’ve skied on both sides of the ocean and I don’t think alpine resorts are that much more advanced than big North American resorts. Places like zermatt definitely have big, powerful lifts and huge piste networks. But European resorts also have a lot of old surface lifts. The food on the mountain is better in Europe. The snow is better in North America (the western part). Also, many North American resorts actually were originally planned by European consultants. Emile Allais has several design credits in North America. Resort planners from North America such as Canada’s Ecosign and SE Group from the US work all over the world designing resort expansions or even entire resorts built from scratch.
@@dhowe5180 No, Euro good, America could given its resources have been much much better. It is true some of the 3,965 ski resorts in Europe are in terms of old lifts and design the same as some US ski resorts of which there are 473, but that is moot. The issue is Park City is the biggest one in the US, and ranks just 27 in Peak Rankings, and Les Trois Vallées is the worlds largest. And its lift infrastructure and how it is all linked together to get skiers up the hill is light years in front of anything in America, even Palisades Tahoe with 43 lifts the most in America just pails into insignificance compared with Les Portes du Soleil - Morzine/Avoriaz/Les Gets/Châtel/Morgins/Champéry with 165 lifts. Lift wise Palisades Tahoe is at the the same level as Arosa Lenzerheide in Switzerland. But the ski traffic flow design of European major ski resorts to get skiers up the hill are more efficient in an interlinked design then the lifts in American ski resorts as Peak Rankings resort reports show the poor layout of American resort lift network. European ski resort designers may very well have been taken on to plan the US ski resorts, BUT, given how much American ski resorts lag behind the main European ski resorts in ski traffic flow and resort run pieste direction direction signs their recommendations was apparently not taken up by the American resort owners, who instead prefer to milk American skiers of their money, as in a 6 day area lift pass for Vail is $859 or 811 Euros, a 6 day lift pass for the whole Les Trois Vallées is 360 Euros or $381. As I said, the American skiers themselves are partially to blame as most do not know any better, and tend to be focused on powder snow and the back bowls. If more of them travelled across the Atlantic they would see how far behind American and Canadian ski resorts are compared to the major ones in France, Austria, Switzerland and Italy, and then needed changes might happen if American skiers voted with their wallets.
@@Puzzoozoo It sounds like your complaint about North American ski resorts is based on two factors: overall size of the resort and the layout as judged by Peak Rankings. I'll refute your claims separately. First, you are correct that some resorts in the Alps are larger than the largest North American resorts. In a 2020 ranking of resort size calculated by a German resort consultant, le Trois Vallees is the largest and North America doesn't register until 8th place (Whistler), still a pretty big resort compared to the 3,957 smaller European resorts. Park city is 10th biggest. The key reason that Whistler and Park City aren't numbers 1 and 2 has to do with land use regulation in North America where most mountainous terrain is in public ownership (compared to the Alps where the mountain pastures are privately owned). The biggest ski resorts in North America operate on public land (or Crown land in Canada) and their size is limited by permit. In the Alps the restrictions on expansion are significantly looser, hence bigger resorts. So it's a difference in public policy, not some inherently inferior attribute of Americans (Sorry). In North America, conservation of wilderness areas is just deemed more important. RE: using Peak Rankings video commentary as a criteria proxy for resort layout, I would point out that they haven't reviewed any resorts in the Alps so it's an unfair comparison. The layout flaws that Peak rankings points to in North American resorts are mostly minor inconveniences. As a whole, navigating North American resorts is pretty straightforward with good signage. There are some exceptions like Heavenly which is a complicated mountain to get around. I haven't skied le Trois Vallees but I've skied the second biggest resort in the Alps (Sella Ronda) and the layout is necessarily quite complicated given the vast size of the place although the signage is good. Alpine resorts have their minor inconveniences (long cat tracks, flat spots, road crossings) just like anywhere else.
@@dhowe5180 Au contraire, not a complaint more an observation. And a main factor of my *observation* is the design of the lift system in American ski resorts compared with the major European ski resorts, in that their lift system is all interlinked and efficient, and the US ones shown in this channel are piecemeal and with the odd new modern lifts not well thought out. Fair enough the North American ski resorts i.e. US & Canada are on public land, but that was not my point. PeakRankings shows how lacking US resorts are with on hill facilities and skier flow via the lift system up the hill is at times is lamentable, ok, there are lift ques in European resorts at peak times, but they are not as long as has been shown in some US resorts, which given the amount American skiers have to pay is unforgivable. PLUS, the large at times lift ques here are soon emptied via the efficient lift system. Of note the new Vanoise Express between Les Arc's and La Plagne. In short, the American [ and Canadian] ski resort owners and management haven't done a good job of using the resources they have available to have made a ski resort that has an efficient lift system compared with the similar sized resorts here in Europe. In a reply comment PeakRankings has said that they will be doing reports from the major European resorts i.e. in France, Austria, Switzerland and Italy, then as most viewers on this channel are American and Canadian skiers, if they haven't been to Europe they'll get an insight into how far behind their countries ski resorts area in comparison, and once word gets round they can vote with their wallet. I to haven't skied at Les Trois Vallées, but will be going to Val d'Isère in Jan 2025, as I'm off to Les Deux Alpes, Alpe d'Huez and La Plagne this season, in 2025 finances permitting, I might go to Whistler or Aspen in Feb after Val d'Isère to see what it is like in real life. Peace.
Vail made skiing more affordable for skiers who ski regularly, for those who buy their tickets last minute and only ski a few days a skiing, it’s more expensive. I’ll happily take that trade off
@@johnsmeith3913so we can assume their business model is to keep steady revenue (pre ski season) from consistent pass holders who ski every year. So then why would most upgrades be centered around beginners? When they actively price out beginners or new skiers who only go 2-3 times a year. It just doesn’t make any sense
Six pack or eight pack lifts suck because people are bad at queuing and don't like sitting next to strangers. On paper they look fantastic but they don't account for how people actually behave.
Just need 1 liftie making $12/hr on peak days to keep them full
Guess how many ticket scanning gates the V8 at Perisher has, I’ll wait
Time’s up! If you guess 8, you’d be wrong.
The correct answer is 6, and as a result that lift is extremely inefficient, with it being rare to see a full chair of 8.
What is going on with Americans. 6 and 8 packs are always filled in European resorts. At least with the same percentage as 4 packs. We never have any lines really.
@@EmotionalWeather It's the same reason trains don't work in America. A lot of Americans are entitled idiots who demand their own space at all times even if it makes everything worse for everyone.
@@joemclaughlin8657we start at $20/hour with vail.
7:00. I'm an advanced-level skier now but I was a beginner not that long ago and I remember how stressful getting on and off chair lifts was early in my learning days. Fixed-grip lifts were extra terrifying because the chairs came at you so quickly. I'm all for detachable lifts with slow loading speeds at beginner areas. That is especially true in places where the same lift services beginner slopes and access to higher mountain lifts. Lifts that load quickly inevitably end up stopping frequently when beginners slip up, frustrating everyone in the process. Better to have slower loading so beginners can get on more easily and everyone else can get up the slope and away to higher mountain lifts.
Or…you could just learn how to get on a fixed-grip lift. It just isn’t that hard!
Same! I remember learning to snowboard at Loveland in the early 2000s and just having a yard sale over and over and over again trying to learn to unload on a fixed grip or having to crawl away as fast as possible so they wouldn’t stop the lift. They were the bane of my existence and I almost wanted to give up just because of that 😂
Slow onboarding/high speed always trumps fast onboarding/slow speed.
@@eipip1ez Not if you still like to have good snow past 10:00!
@@johns3106exactly what does it take 2-3 days for most people to learn? Maybe a week of riding if you’re slow. How are you gonna punish people for the next few decades of their riding career just to make it easier for first day riders to get on/off the lift. 😭
all my homies hate vail resorts
Why?
Attitash only got lift upgrades after multiple horribly-run seasons where snowmaking and staffing was lacking. Vail basically had to beg the locals to renew their passes. Vail only puts money into their destination resorts. If you are a local resort, you have last choice
Agreed!
I’ll never go to attitash again even though I have a place thirty minutes away. Last three times I visited main lift broken
@@bobl6139 Last time I went it was ice skating down almost every run 😂
In today’s world where air travel keeps expanding Vail will continue to invest more in a few big resorts as they will generate significantly more revenue
for real it’s sad
The Sundown Express at Vail allows skiers to do laps on runs where it was previously impossible, because you would previously have to ski all the way down to the High Noon Express, which would bring you back next to the Mountaintop Express.
Would love to see a similar video on Alterra, some of their decisions seem a bit weird imo
I just stopped going because I got tired of spending $1400 on a ski trip.
The issue with Sunbrook Express at Mount Snow is that you wind up dealing with a lot of wind. Maybe it should have been a bubble.
That’s literally the opposite of what you want. The bubble becomes a sail and prevents the lift from running. If you have a bubble in a high wind area, it’s going to be offline alot
We imagine that may have been why the old ownership held off on a detachable for so long, but it’s way nicer to have a halved ride time on that exposed line.
@@TheRidersChoice Well, the workaround for that on the main face Bluebird Express Bubble was hydraulics that automatically closed the bubbles to keep them from scooping up air. Unfortunately the added complexity of the hydraulics led to downtime issues anyway.
@@Guy_Incognito118 the bubbles when closed still are a big wind drag. You can’t overcome physics. They only somewhat can overcome wind because they are so much heavier than regular chairs
Fixed grip triple would be fine but instead we gotta cater to New Jersey fat folks
I found this video very informative. I am just amazed at how extensive Vail's reach has grown. I have been skiing for over 50 years and it's like you mentioned almost every resort I ever skied at in this video. It would be like going to a major airport and seeing flights from only one airline. No wonder the prices are so crazy there's no competition.
Thanks for watching Gwen!
INDY PASS!! sold out but you can get on a waitlist?? I'm on year 3 and its more fun than an iKon pass
ALL the best terrain-- indy OR ikon--
is under 40 year old fixed grip doubles
@TheGuyBroNintySixgood luck
From European perspective, North American skii infractructure looks prehistoric. Those chairlifts look like they were built in 1960s and never upgraded.
I used to go to Okemo every weekend couple years ago. I stop going because the crowds were out of control. Sunburst six is a big plus to this resort, but always have a lot people. The way I used to skip the line, I used to take the Green Ridge Triple, because no one used to take that lift mid mountain because it is windy and slow, but honestly that was the only way to enjoy the resort. Now that lift was replaced by the Evergreen Summit Express, this created a lot people mid mountain and it is really no that flat to move around and wait in line. I do not think I will go to Okemo because of crowds and I wouldn't get enough runs during a day.
Until okemo adds a lift from base to summit instead of the crazy slow overcrowded ones to beginner terrain ,okemo is a no go
I hope Vail gives Whistler some additional lifts, even the fast 6 pack chairs are 40 min waits now.
Six wide?? I remember when Quads were a big deal.
Not now, there is almost no snow there, isn't it ?
It's astonishing the amount of leisure money available for mountain-based activities: real estate, luxury SUV, equipment, passes, & it's all based on a huge weather gamble: rain, fog, sleet, snow, high wind. If you're really lucky & time it just right, then you get bluebird powder, but you also have to share it with 40,000 people & long lift lines that can be seen from space. 😂
I've been skiing for SIX decades and my technique is usually the best on the hill (yes it is modern). I've seen it all in North America. For instance I skied Snowmass before it was a ski area. Where do I ski now? All of the small to medium ski areas. Why???
We need to make skiing affordable again. I'll gladly pay a $50 lift ticket that have old but safe lifts, and I will never pay more than a $100 for a lift ticket. I like double or triple chairs where they are slow and you just might meet someone new and maybe have a beer with them at the end of the day, and make a long-term friendship.. Slow chairs or surface lifts prevent crowds and the wearing out of snow because of too many people. You will meet locals instead of spoiled, out of touch people. There are always powder stashes that last for days. I've skied big mountains like Jackson Hole and Vail; yet the powder there is always chopped up by teenage boys that are trying to impress their girlfriends.
The best places to ski are usually at the top of a pass on National Forest land that doesn't have any private land to develop for condos or homes. Unfortunately, Colorado no longer has ski areas like Berthoud Pass or Geneva Basin (where I learned to ski). However, Loveland and Monarch are still going strong. So support areas like Sunlight and Powderhorn in Colorado. Wyoming has other ski areas besides Jackson Hole. Montana and Idaho have very good small ski areas.
Final word...stop making they maga-conglomerated ski areas even richer!!!
As a CO local, I love our gems resorts like Loveland and Monarch too!
Why are US resorts so expensive? European resorts are 100x more modern compared to these museums, yet passes are still $60 to $80.
The most pressing project they need to work on is decreasing the ridiculous high lift prices! They are getting close to people saying F it.
The gentrification of skiing continues.
Paying top dollar for long lift lines is not worth it to me no matter what ski resort or ski area.
“30 year old quads are at the end of their service life”, meanwhile Nakiska laughs as it’s 1987-vintage quads keep spinning and spinning, with only one chair having been replaced since it opened (the Gold triple, which was re-opened at Fernie as Polar Peak).
6:45 this is what I've been saying! My local (Nub's Nob, MI) just replaced an old fixed grip lift with a new fixed grip arguing that a high speed lift was unnecessary in their postings where they announced it.
It's essentially the main artery for people to get to the top of hill from the parking lot and not only is it zero improvement over the old lift, the drop at the top off the lift is even higher and steeper than before making for a pretty intimidating experience for new skiers and snowboarders.
I went on it for the first time last week and while I was at the top getting ready to start my run I watched three chairs in a row behind me with people wiping out as they got off the unloading ramp.
What a missed opportunity. What's worse is that now that the money is sunk, this lift is going to be there for the next 30+ years now with no chance of being upgraded to a detachable high speed lift that is more user friendly.
I really love these breakdown videos, and using the bounce sound as a transition was inspired
Are we finally getting a Whistler video?!?!?
We don’t have any footage clearer than what you saw in this video, so we may hold off until next season.
Oh Christ, I remember when the Wayback lift was installed… and that 30yrs ago!?😮 how can it be that long!?!?
Why are there no DOUBLE HIGH chairlifts: which board and dismount on two different levels.
north bowl express at heavenly improved the skiing on that side a lot!
Vail has killed skiing for anyone but the rich. As someone who grew up skiing in Colorado it’s just too expensive for new normal families to try and learn skiing ⛷️. I don’t have a single friend or acquaintance that is a normal income family that skies. Even one that lives in Utah, Salt Lake… if you don’t have a pass don’t go basically. Lift tickets at AAA resorts are bonkers for a family of 4 or 5 not to,mention all the costs. It really is the sport of the rich 🤑
At one point, I actually worked for Vail at Peak 8, Breck, on my off-days at Copper. Burnt the candle at both ends. Was traffic control foreman at Copper 03'-05'. My bosses at Copper came from Breck. I miss the mountains. Would move back in a heart-beat. Vail bought a resort here in Mn, Afton Alps. I haven't been there since the exchange. Great video. Cheers. AMA.
Don't eat yellow snow.
I board primarily at Keystone and go all the way to the back, so taking Wayback to get there and leave isn't really an issue, but now with the new lift at Bergman, we will have to see how congested it gets.
The T-Bar at Breck should be one of their highest priorities.
What 's the matter with the T-bar? It's perfectly serviceable.
@@laurak8240 It's very slow and serves a large portion of upper-mountain terrain meaning that it gets extremely crowded very quickly. Simply even converting it to a general 2-person lift would dramaticaly improve capacity.
@@Razor_Crest I see. I've never seen it too crowded and like the unique ride experience. Is it better than a normal lift in wind? Because that part of the mountain is really windy pretty much all the time, it seems.
@@laurak8240 The wind is better but only slightly because there's no tree cover in the second half of the T-bar as it's an upper-mountain access lift anyways. However, it's much worse as far as overall ride experience because it eliminates your ability to rest on your way up the ride since you're standing up and trying to keep you and your partner from falling off. It's also much slower than a standard slow lift.
They need to add a lift to access the Milky Way bowl at Heavenly.
Breck only had one chair for peak 7. It was definitely needed
I'd love to see Chair 6 get upgraded
@@skiinggator same but doubt they would prioritize lifts that only access intermediate/expert terrain :/
A half day of skiing at Whistler starting at 12:30 pm until 3:00 pm. That is 150 minutes of skiing. The cost $186 . . . . We had already done the drive and were doing a half day to test a recovering broken ankle. No love here!!! Vail, may you fail!!! HARD
can u pls do stratton mountain review
Vail hasn’t invested significantly in the Tahoe area in decades. They acquired these resorts and have used them for cash cows
I’ve always wondered why this is. Mammoth routinely clocks 1 million visits each year yet they run their lifts into the ground. I think it has something to do with California not being a big destination market for people outside of California so it’s treated as a captive market. Why upgrade lifts in Tahoe or mammoth when the skiers from the Bay Area or so cal are going to show up no matter what? And skiers from the Midwest, Texas and the east coast are going to go to Colorado or Utah no matter what gets spent in California.
@@dhowe5180 they also simply keep a significantly lower % of the dollars they make after California tax then they would in other states. Could also be related-to not wanting to invest 15mil$ chairlifts in resorts that may see inconsistent snowfall
lol kirkwood is the perfect example of this. basically no high speed lifts!!
Heavenly did add the new stagecoach chair and Northstar replaced a 4 pack with a 6 pack in a busy area. Mirkwood definitely needs a new high speed.
@@stevedrulias9888 but Vail didn’t invest in any infrastructure on a weekend or a holiday. There’s 600,000 people at Heavenly and around the neighborhood. Just trying to park you sit in traffic for four hours just to go 8 feet up ski run Boulevard to be turned around Vail sucks it destroyed Tahoe …… Vail stay in your lane
Vail is so Woke!
Big time ,they work that esg score!
Personally, I think Boston Mills in Ohio needs more lifts
Brandywine as well. Weekends are awful unless it's bitter cold or 70°.
Restaurant. Retail. Real Estate. Skiing as entertainment With NO Dues. Skid around and go fer Lunch. No Retail space left unaccounted for. Everyone a Winner. You're All Revenue Units Now! You Don't Need a Clue to Go Skiing. Mid-Fats Forever "My Fats Carve; Dude". Snowmaking for the Parks: Screw the Runs.
Phaough! ... After Fifty Seasons and 5,000 Days I bin there done that.This used to be a Life! But this all fits our world's oceans full of jelly fish and Expedient Facts.
I’m still waiting for the Mt Perisher six pack down here in Australia. Got approved like 2 years ago.
Edit: just got announced that it will be open for the 2025 winter
Nobody skis anymore expect a very small, elite wealthy cohart, or CWOKs ( couples without kids ).
9:08, big gray box before the upper terminal. Beautiful mtu-Rolls-Royce generator backing up McCoy Park. Keep an eye out for those Rolls-Royce generators at areas across the US. Yippee!
High speed chairs won't fix liftlines. Fixed grip chairs are much closer together. Uphill capacity per hour is basically the same.
I don’t mind the slow lifts at Canyons because it keeps the crowds down. Especially at Peak 5. Such great terrain and very little traffic.
More lifts often mean more crowding the groomers. Raise peak day pass to like, $299 and limit sales??
With the amount of revenue they have coming in they should really put some into their staff. Add an additional person at the top and bottom of each lift to help with crowd control. Give them a mega phone and make sure every chair is going up full, would make a massive difference. Also why not put some tvs out near the waiting line of the lifts that have instructional displays of getting on and off lift ( also basic etiquette) and signs asking people to please fill each chair; your friends will be there for you at the top! And the extra person at the top to ensure that the ding dongs waiting for there friends at the top are out the unloading zone.
Why do the buy the cheapest Doppelmayer lifts? Never seen such basis new lifts in Austria.
We have lifts in dire need of replacement at the 3 resorts Vail own in Australia. Yet year after year they suck the profits out and fail to invest in new lifts. Mt Hotham doesn't have any high speed chairs. Perisher still has double and triple chairs and plenty of T-Bars.
So traffic on the Wayback lift at Keystone will increase. The line is already too long and the lift too slow. Upgrading the Wayback lift needs to be a priority at Keystone.
This is just an advertisement
You forgot about the upgrade of stevens pass’ upgrade of Kehr’s chair from an ancient double to a quad.
there's nothing better than a slow janky 2-3 seater fixed lift in the back of a resort.
Why don't they just aquire Dopplemayr Garventa
They should have a second chair that comes down to board a little higher snd and dismounts a little lower. Then rises for the main dismount.
Peru is still a 4 chair
Haha, crazy, all fully open.
Around here most of the newer lifts have covers and least closed seats so you are not as exposed to the elements.
At Okemo the Glades peak quad being open more, would shift the focus to mid and south of the mountain.
You should see Town Lift at PC in the summer. You will drastically change your viewpoint. For the record, there are stations that are quieter than others because it doesn't have the electric motor.
Limits need to be set…too crowded and dangerous
this is one of the best channels ever
Hopefully Vail will expand into Teocali bowl at Crested Butte. Looks very promising.
Hey I absolutely love ur guys channel and keep up the great work! just a question, what mountain on the ikon pass would you recommend for double black to extreme terrain? Trying to book our trip
Thank you! There are a ton of great extreme mountains on Ikon, just check our website for any resort that's on the Ikon Pass and has a 9 or 10 for challenge.
Some good examples are Jackson Hole, Snowbird, and Revelstoke, but there are too many to count.
Incredible stuff!
This is a paid commercial for Vail. Guaranteed this is a Vail produced & sponsored channel. Nothing wrong with promoting yourself - just disappointing they do it by creating “so called” independent channels to give them positive reviews.
Need new lifts at Afton
My problem is the newer ones looks alike like the old ones. They really should give it a touch of modernity and cool in design. I wouldn't mind myself of an RGB ligihting. But at least have the design like the Dopplemayr in Highlands, MI Camelot 6 lift at least the designe then we can talk about the automation safety aspect later
Overclock the lift on weekends
with a cool drop of LN2 on the bottom of each chair@@counterfit5
will you try bromont and massif next season?
Yep! Will try to get written reviews for both by late 2024.
Your videos are getting so much more interesting with each new post!
Thank you so much Patrick!
You should go to marmot basin in Alberta Canada. They got a new lift.
We’re hoping to get there this season!
@@PeakRankings nice! It’s the closest one to me and they have great glades and amazing views.
I was on ski day with my buddies last season at okemo (I think it’s a vail resort) any way we were on our way up to the summit and about 3/4 the way up it got crazy windy and they started making snow no one thought to stop the lift anyway it was so windy mixed with the snow it got to point where you couldn’t see 3 feet infront of you they’re super disorganized
You don’t have to ski that lift just because the lift is running lol. Some people are such tourists
You mean you had to deal with wind, snow and cold while skiing?! That’s terrible!! 😢🤦
@@TheRidersChoice I’m not a tourist for one and for two there isn’t a need to run a lift if you can’t see
@@Huntersprojects you don’t need to ride the lift bruh. You can look out your window and determine if you want to ride in those conditions.
“It’s too cold for me personally, shut down the lift for everybody else!” -you
There actually is a need to run a lift if they are making snow under it. Keeping the lift running keeps snow from building up on the cables and chairs that would otherwise cause problems when starting a lift after the snowmaking is done. Unlike natural snow, man made snow would form a crust around the parts leading to potential derailment of the cable or jamming of the release of a detachable chair.
Increased capacity could also be less effective due to induced demand. If folks know that there is a bigger faster visit, they will assume it’s going to take less time so they will flock to it.
I wish Vail would expand into Quebec, most resorts have insanely outdated infrastructure and lifts, and season pass prices for what you get are terrible
If you get the full Epic Pass, you get access to the RCR resorts in Quebec.
But yeah, it seems like those resorts haven’t gotten any serious investments in decades.
@@PeakRankings I did not know that, might have to pick up an epic now now. Thanks! Also keep up the great content, you guys are the best ski resort reviewers on the platform!
Well, Vail will not help you with prices, if Whistler is an example
Idk Vail is just aweseom
I just bought vail resorts stock so yay for dividends and buybacks. However I don’t like skiing at vail ski resorts. You can smell the cheapness at most of their resorts. But I do appreciate how much they invest in lift infrastructure especially when you see all the obsolete and scary lifts built in the 1970s at many independent (read poor) resorts. Somewhere there should be a happy medium.
I'll tell you what they were thinking. They knew that ordering all of the manufacturing capacity from the lift manufacturers would prevent any other mountains from being able to get the lifts that they needed.
Vail isnt really a ski resport company. They are a realestate company. Their buggest assets are the properties they own, and for them the shops, and condos are their biggest concern. Lift access ski areas are simply the activity that draws people to come lease a ski condo, or to entice other corporate entities to lease commercial property.
So lift improvements are made with relestate investment in mind first. look at Kirkwoods master plan, and you can see that their village is planned to be double in size, with additional investment in the learning center. The reason this isnt being built anytime soon is simply because there isnt a sizable demand for the additional shops and condos. This inturn drives the decision to not upgrade lifts on the mountain (outside of normal maintenance).
If you take a look at their financials, Vail Resorts actually does make the vast majority of its revenue through on-mountain operations, including tickets, dining, and retail.
But real estate and lodging are still responsible for a sizable minority (~10%) of Vail's revenue.
I don't believe they own the condos, at least not in the CO resorts I frequent. They make money off of management services for these privately owned properties.
But they do have a ton of other operations like ski rentals and retail. That's what sucks the most about Vail inc. They kill the local competition. The only thing that would change that is local laws and regulations, which I think can be done if you have the right people in office vs corporate bootlickers.
@@JimmyFlim in Tahoe Vail owns the property that the villages sit on at Northstar, Kirkwood, and heavenly. I mostly know Kirkwood as thats where I worked for 3 years, but there are properties further down Kirkwood Valley that aren't owned by vail. same for heavenly where vail owns the village proper, but not the land on the lake side of US50.
To further confuse things I know retail locations can either be a full leased store space, leased but operated by vail, or filling owned and operated by vail, so some of their retail is also a real-estate play as well.
@@bassman87 Oh damn, that sucks. Maybe they do own properties that I'm not aware of? I'm mostly familiar with Keystone and everything there is privately owned as far as I know. The only stake they have in it is their "resort management company," KRPM, which takes a 40% cut for renting out and managing privately owned condos. And they don't have a great market share since they're overpriced and there's better mgmt options.
I hope the local communities eventually stand up and vote in politicians that will make the necessary changes to end these unfair practices, especially when it comes to retail. Hyper-capitalism can really fuck things up and it needs to change.
Vail - 3rd world solutions for 1st world problems.
If detachable lifts are STILL too high-tech: why not have a mechanical pacing bunny, like a grayhound track, for skiers to pole along with and board with a running start onto a full-speed chair? Same effect as slow-boarding detachable. Just chase the bunny, and when the chair hits your calf sit down (quickly!)
It all boils down to all US ski resorts suffering from the insular American corporate mindset in that they weren't designed very well from the beginning, and then developed piecemeal, and resort and company management still have little to no idea how to effectively run a ski resort,
Maybe before they built them if American ski resort designers and American ski resort management had travelled and seen and learnt how major French, Austrian and Swiss ski resorts are designed they might have done things better, better still they could have employed French, Austrian, Swiss, and even Italian ski resort designers to come to the US and act as consultants to show them how they could design an efficient world class ranked ski resort in the US terrain, but then that would be 'un American' for them to do it.
American skiers are also partially to blame, as most of them frankly have little to no idea how efficient major European ski resorts are, American skiers can't think beyond their powder snow and back bowls, and can't see the near third world status of their counties major ski resorts with its inadequate infrastructure and facilities, and the exorbitant prices.
Euro good. America bad, right? I’ve skied on both sides of the ocean and I don’t think alpine resorts are that much more advanced than big North American resorts. Places like zermatt definitely have big, powerful lifts and huge piste networks. But European resorts also have a lot of old surface lifts. The food on the mountain is better in Europe. The snow is better in North America (the western part). Also, many North American resorts actually were originally planned by European consultants. Emile Allais has several design credits in North America. Resort planners from North America such as Canada’s Ecosign and SE Group from the US work all over the world designing resort expansions or even entire resorts built from scratch.
@@dhowe5180 No, Euro good, America could given its resources have been much much better. It is true some of the 3,965 ski resorts in Europe are in terms of old lifts and design the same as some US ski resorts of which there are 473, but that is moot.
The issue is Park City is the biggest one in the US, and ranks just 27 in Peak Rankings, and Les Trois Vallées is the worlds largest. And its lift infrastructure and how it is all linked together to get skiers up the hill is light years in front of anything in America, even Palisades Tahoe with 43 lifts the most in America just pails into insignificance compared with Les Portes du Soleil - Morzine/Avoriaz/Les Gets/Châtel/Morgins/Champéry with 165 lifts. Lift wise Palisades Tahoe is at the the same level as Arosa Lenzerheide in Switzerland.
But the ski traffic flow design of European major ski resorts to get skiers up the hill are more efficient in an interlinked design then the lifts in American ski resorts as Peak Rankings resort reports show the poor layout of American resort lift network.
European ski resort designers may very well have been taken on to plan the US ski resorts, BUT, given how much American ski resorts lag behind the main European ski resorts in ski traffic flow and resort run pieste direction direction signs their recommendations was apparently not taken up by the American resort owners, who instead prefer to milk American skiers of their money, as in a 6 day area lift pass for Vail is $859 or 811 Euros, a 6 day lift pass for the whole Les Trois Vallées is 360 Euros or $381. As I said, the American skiers themselves are partially to blame as most do not know any better, and tend to be focused on powder snow and the back bowls. If more of them travelled across the Atlantic they would see how far behind American and Canadian ski resorts are compared to the major ones in France, Austria, Switzerland and Italy, and then needed changes might happen if American skiers voted with their wallets.
@@Puzzoozoo It sounds like your complaint about North American ski resorts is based on two factors: overall size of the resort and the layout as judged by Peak Rankings. I'll refute your claims separately. First, you are correct that some resorts in the Alps are larger than the largest North American resorts. In a 2020 ranking of resort size calculated by a German resort consultant, le Trois Vallees is the largest and North America doesn't register until 8th place (Whistler), still a pretty big resort compared to the 3,957 smaller European resorts. Park city is 10th biggest. The key reason that Whistler and Park City aren't numbers 1 and 2 has to do with land use regulation in North America where most mountainous terrain is in public ownership (compared to the Alps where the mountain pastures are privately owned). The biggest ski resorts in North America operate on public land (or Crown land in Canada) and their size is limited by permit. In the Alps the restrictions on expansion are significantly looser, hence bigger resorts. So it's a difference in public policy, not some inherently inferior attribute of Americans (Sorry). In North America, conservation of wilderness areas is just deemed more important. RE: using Peak Rankings video commentary as a criteria proxy for resort layout, I would point out that they haven't reviewed any resorts in the Alps so it's an unfair comparison. The layout flaws that Peak rankings points to in North American resorts are mostly minor inconveniences. As a whole, navigating North American resorts is pretty straightforward with good signage. There are some exceptions like Heavenly which is a complicated mountain to get around. I haven't skied le Trois Vallees but I've skied the second biggest resort in the Alps (Sella Ronda) and the layout is necessarily quite complicated given the vast size of the place although the signage is good. Alpine resorts have their minor inconveniences (long cat tracks, flat spots, road crossings) just like anywhere else.
@@dhowe5180 Au contraire, not a complaint more an observation. And a main factor of my *observation* is the design of the lift system in American ski resorts compared with the major European ski resorts, in that their lift system is all interlinked and efficient, and the US ones shown in this channel are piecemeal and with the odd new modern lifts not well thought out.
Fair enough the North American ski resorts i.e. US & Canada are on public land, but that was not my point. PeakRankings shows how lacking US resorts are with on hill facilities and skier flow via the lift system up the hill is at times is lamentable, ok, there are lift ques in European resorts at peak times, but they are not as long as has been shown in some US resorts, which given the amount American skiers have to pay is unforgivable. PLUS, the large at times lift ques here are soon emptied via the efficient lift system. Of note the new Vanoise Express between Les Arc's and La Plagne.
In short, the American [ and Canadian] ski resort owners and management haven't done a good job of using the resources they have available to have made a ski resort that has an efficient lift system compared with the similar sized resorts here in Europe.
In a reply comment PeakRankings has said that they will be doing reports from the major European resorts i.e. in France, Austria, Switzerland and Italy, then as most viewers on this channel are American and Canadian skiers, if they haven't been to Europe they'll get an insight into how far behind their countries ski resorts area in comparison, and once word gets round they can vote with their wallet.
I to haven't skied at Les Trois Vallées, but will be going to Val d'Isère in Jan 2025, as I'm off to Les Deux Alpes,
Alpe d'Huez and La Plagne this season, in 2025 finances permitting, I might go to Whistler or Aspen in Feb after Val d'Isère to see what it is like in real life. Peace.
They priced a lot of us out of the market.
Vail made skiing more affordable for skiers who ski regularly, for those who buy their tickets last minute and only ski a few days a skiing, it’s more expensive. I’ll happily take that trade off
@@johnsmeith3913so we can assume their business model is to keep steady revenue (pre ski season) from consistent pass holders who ski every year. So then why would most upgrades be centered around beginners? When they actively price out beginners or new skiers who only go 2-3 times a year. It just doesn’t make any sense
Vail sucks