A lower power level is better for the game anyway. Even if you can beat skyscraper, designing the whole game around winning in 1-3 seconds is pretty unfun and makes burn/poison useless mechanics. Just because something is beatable doesn’t make it good for the meta
Agreed. It ruins the whole dynamic of rushdown vs sustain vs combo scaling etc everything is just uber fast ultra combo or die when a 3 second kill is easy to set up
Absolutely correct, and it funnelled the space into a very small number of options. Completely blind specific hard counter matchup requirements that ignore the level of performance of your build in % terms and only reward 1 of 100 choices you made feel incredibly boring. Similarly, if all builds are super powerful slow builds get automatically penalised; no point in running a slow weapon if you can do half as much damage with a small weapon, but it's still 5x more damage than you need. Reynad needs to stick to his guns and nerf hard and early so people don't get too used to broken shit and start the usual online game cryfest when things get brought down in power.
To add to that, mechanics such as the boulder for example are essentially useless builds due to the fights going for short periods of time not allowing any diversity of builds.
I absolutely agree, although if there are no builds that can "race" to victory, then every fight will come down to whose build is able to exponentially scale faster
Yeah it's worth noting the vulnerability of low-active item count builds to freezelock / destruction is actually an underlying bad thing too; there's a whole genre of fun silly builds like trying to make a single jellyfish work, or a katana only build, etc. Running low-active builds obviously should come with risks - you get advantages in terms of proc funnelling and so on - but if there are simple turnkey 1-2 choice hard counters that will happily freezelock or destroy builds like this essentially they don't exist. The opportunity cost for taking "ignore low-active item count builds" being close to free just eliminates choices in all directions. The celestial blessing feels like it's a necessary evil at the moment, but also being so insanely vital makes me want some of that power to be spread out. Having other ways of mitigating lockout that are less universal - eg imagine a minor enchantment shrine that lets you halve the duration of freeze on an item but doesn't overwrite its primary blessing - that kind of thing would allow for less binary interactions. Or having items/mechanics that can respond to CC - eg an antifreeze frog that eats cc effects off other items you have and cannot itself be frozen (but can be destroyed). If there can be an ecosystem of on-board behaviour around cc instead of binary it got annihilated or not everybody would be happier I think. A big chunk of the fun of this game is setting up your board then watching the behaviour unfold; the more you see what you've built acting both in ways you've planned and in ways you haven't when interacting with other boards, the deeper and more satisfying the *feedback* from the game to the player is. I think that should very much be a focus of these kinds of changes
I think the problem with the skyscraper build wasn’t that you can’t beat it in end game, it’s that it came online with just a few items so it was so easy to transition into and as such the player was free to spend almost all of their attention on counterplay, e.g, investing in freeze skills and haste skills. I hate when streamers feel the need to downplay a meta build and make it sound like a noob stomper just bc they’ve beat it a few times in end game. I’ve seen him lose to the meta builds plenty of times in the early days.
Sky and spacescraper was pretty busted. I got it early with Stained Glass window and scaled the fuck out of the values, so my skyscrapers were hitting for 75k damage with multicast x2 Then managed to get some skills to get everything hasted straight away and slow opponent - so i was one shotting everyone in 2 seconds and had ENDLESS riches to buy more health, think i finished with 35,000 health, so pretty sure at that point the only true counter was Vanessa critknives, and they probably don't have enough ammo to one shot me before i one shotted them. It was broken beyond all belief, - just ignore all shops and level hero and you become so hard to kill
I think his point is more along the lines of it's a knowledge gap. There are ways to counter it that you have to consider including/finding in your build, especially if Skyscraper is meta. Nerfing if something is bugged or overtunned (why does a skyscraper go off in 3 seconds WITH MULTICAST) is one thing. Nerfing because the field/opponents refuse to take one of the multiple options to counter the build is capitulating and isn't good game design/management.
noob detected, truth is skyscraper was significantly inferior to throwing knives and perma freeze dooley, and icicle/clam is a massive counter to skyscrapers
หลายเดือนก่อน +3
@@arthurbarelli3315 the mindset is wrong here and I bet the game designers are aware of that. I'm a game designer but not on such complex games. The argument "just counter it" doesn't work because most builds simply can't and even if they could, what then you got 2 meta builds and every other build should conform around having counters to those? It's just another meta and less fun with that. Every class having a couple builds would be great but I think what Raynad is trying to achieve is that you can't force and the skill is in making the best of what you get. The game will fix itself with updates that get new cards but right now forcing builds is too easy and if you don't force while there are obviously overpowered builds you just can't get to 10 wins if you don't play a meta build and you face meta builds too many times which is unhealthy. It's a closed beta and they are doing really good work, I trust the game will be even more awesome at launch!
The docks nerf was a pretty big (and good) one, if you picked the middle option for tools it would almost always give you a free gold skill because the pool is so small. It was too much value.
It was a lot of value, but even so it was one of the more interesting ways to build Dooley. Dooley is still a blast to play, just more limited in his options.
Even if you know how to counter something, you have no way of knowing what build you are up against.... Guess you hedge your bets the best way possible against the meta.
I think they should show you the enemy build before you start the fight. It would make it so you can keep stash slots for holding your counterplay items for beating certain builds. This would only improve the player experience because it's not like the player you beat loses a match for it.
what are you talking about, your literally shown the character your going to fight before you click, that's why kripp always puts in caltrops from his stash against dooley when he has it
Whole build is too much maybe around 1-3 item to give you an idea or throw you off if the opponent is playing some weird build. It could be a double edge sword at least it will have some interactivity and decision making except for that hero's mo.
He said you can just use any start of combat slow or freeze effect and gave an example - still specific, but not the same as dedicating an entire built, just 1 of your 10 slots
I get Kripp's point about skyscraper not being that big of an issue because "counterplay", but I have to disagree. The amount of builds you can actually pull off that beat getting 1 shot in 0.7-2 seconds is very low, and much harder to get than skyscraper, so I'm glad they toned it down
I agree with 40% cd being better than multicast. That math is a little different in aquatic where cds are low with hastes and charge. With Dooley, Kripp is correct in my mind 100%.
I wish someone would create a wikigg with all the items in the game (seen so far.) I'm tired of getting the option for enchantments and not knowing what they do until after I apply it.
The problem with skyscrapers isn’t that you cant counter it. Its that you can play Pyg however you want and just pick up 2 items in the later days to reach the build. Sure some people make it a 50k scraper, but you don’t need that. Once you get those 2 items, you pretty much always have a 3k shield 3k damage multicast build that kills anyone in 2 seconds. Meanwhile Dooleys out there try to synergize 10 small items to make a proper build.
Item destruction and freeze is super unfun, I hate it, it doesn't feel super good to play with or against. It's so frustrating to have your build destroyed/frozen and unable to play :(
Just faced the new incarnation of the dagger build. With crit reload and ways to trigger it. Pretty nasty stuff. Still managed to beat it with Dooley. The robot is strong when built right :)
I had a game where my radiant item was slowed frozen and destroyed. I think it happens if it was previously enchanted with something else in my case it had shielding then i found radiant and reenchanted it.
I wish they would fix the pufferfish bug. I had triple ray double jellyfish from fishing rod, and the 18x pufferfish activation at once did not go off properly. Its a bad build but it was fun until I realized it wasn't working at all.
Instead of them killing builds outright (e.g. the Dam), I would rather they make them rarer. Getting to these crazy builds is part of the fun, but it should be difficult. Hope they don't patch the fun out of the game.
Binary is pretty easy. Right most „0“ or „1“ is a „1“. Next one counts as a „2“, then „4“ and so on. With that „11“ equals 3 in decimal. „111“ is 7. „110“ is 6 „1000“ is 8 It is the easiest thing, but no one can really read a long binary number. It is effort. As someone else wrote it is 1999. So they messed up the joke exactly themselves for the same reason. No one is better for knowing binary, but on the contrary it is easy. (just about doubling and adding)
initial chill is the first time you use a large item, freeze and item for like 3 or 4 seconds depending on skill tier. I had a freeze build with 2 large items, and that skill alone almost permafroze an enemy board with a fast item. I reported that bug as soon as I realized it was triggering way more than it should have
The bug with Radiant not preventing destruction is so funny to me because the very last game I played before the servers went down for the patch was one where I was playing Dooley with some mega super key item I needed to make my build work. I slapped Radiant on it like day 12 or 13 or something where I was like, "Okay, as long as this thing can't be destroyed, I should have a really good chance to win." Next PvP match I encounter was somebody with a destruction item. "At least they can't destroy my... WTF THEY DESTROYED MY ITEM HUH??!?!?!" and then I lost at 9 wins. :) LOL
I dont mind a lot of balance patches, especially early, but they need to have clearer patch notes (exact numbers), and also to not completely gut items every patch. Early, I get it, but if it continues, you're going to have to be hyper aware of patches or else you're giga punished.
Disappointing to see you defend 1 second TTKs just because there's a tiny amount of options that can beat them. It's clearly terrible for the game to have the majority of the items be useless since they can't compete in a 1-2 second meta. Kill times that fast are just stupid and don't allow the games mechanics to exist and function.
i am pretty sure that most of the game is about being gigaOP and makes exodia type builds. the main balance in the game is how often the giga exodia build appears because if it its too frequent than anything that isn't exodia build is unplayable.
@@rlrhino7he had 50k live viewer on TH-cam yesterday and streams everyday 10 hours. He is rank 2 in the world in this game. Why are you guys so jealous?
![ILLSLICK X YOUNGOHM - We're The same [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yUJNkobYR0E/mqdefault.jpg)
A lower power level is better for the game anyway. Even if you can beat skyscraper, designing the whole game around winning in 1-3 seconds is pretty unfun and makes burn/poison useless mechanics. Just because something is beatable doesn’t make it good for the meta
Agreed. It ruins the whole dynamic of rushdown vs sustain vs combo scaling etc everything is just uber fast ultra combo or die when a 3 second kill is easy to set up
Absolutely correct, and it funnelled the space into a very small number of options. Completely blind specific hard counter matchup requirements that ignore the level of performance of your build in % terms and only reward 1 of 100 choices you made feel incredibly boring. Similarly, if all builds are super powerful slow builds get automatically penalised; no point in running a slow weapon if you can do half as much damage with a small weapon, but it's still 5x more damage than you need.
Reynad needs to stick to his guns and nerf hard and early so people don't get too used to broken shit and start the usual online game cryfest when things get brought down in power.
To add to that, mechanics such as the boulder for example are essentially useless builds due to the fights going for short periods of time not allowing any diversity of builds.
I absolutely agree, although if there are no builds that can "race" to victory, then every fight will come down to whose build is able to exponentially scale faster
Yeah it's worth noting the vulnerability of low-active item count builds to freezelock / destruction is actually an underlying bad thing too; there's a whole genre of fun silly builds like trying to make a single jellyfish work, or a katana only build, etc. Running low-active builds obviously should come with risks - you get advantages in terms of proc funnelling and so on - but if there are simple turnkey 1-2 choice hard counters that will happily freezelock or destroy builds like this essentially they don't exist. The opportunity cost for taking "ignore low-active item count builds" being close to free just eliminates choices in all directions.
The celestial blessing feels like it's a necessary evil at the moment, but also being so insanely vital makes me want some of that power to be spread out. Having other ways of mitigating lockout that are less universal - eg imagine a minor enchantment shrine that lets you halve the duration of freeze on an item but doesn't overwrite its primary blessing - that kind of thing would allow for less binary interactions.
Or having items/mechanics that can respond to CC - eg an antifreeze frog that eats cc effects off other items you have and cannot itself be frozen (but can be destroyed). If there can be an ecosystem of on-board behaviour around cc instead of binary it got annihilated or not everybody would be happier I think.
A big chunk of the fun of this game is setting up your board then watching the behaviour unfold; the more you see what you've built acting both in ways you've planned and in ways you haven't when interacting with other boards, the deeper and more satisfying the *feedback* from the game to the player is. I think that should very much be a focus of these kinds of changes
I think the problem with the skyscraper build wasn’t that you can’t beat it in end game, it’s that it came online with just a few items so it was so easy to transition into and as such the player was free to spend almost all of their attention on counterplay, e.g, investing in freeze skills and haste skills.
I hate when streamers feel the need to downplay a meta build and make it sound like a noob stomper just bc they’ve beat it a few times in end game. I’ve seen him lose to the meta builds plenty of times in the early days.
Sky and spacescraper was pretty busted.
I got it early with Stained Glass window and scaled the fuck out of the values, so my skyscrapers were hitting for 75k damage with multicast x2
Then managed to get some skills to get everything hasted straight away and slow opponent - so i was one shotting everyone in 2 seconds and had ENDLESS riches to buy more health, think i finished with 35,000 health, so pretty sure at that point the only true counter was Vanessa critknives, and they probably don't have enough ammo to one shot me before i one shotted them.
It was broken beyond all belief, - just ignore all shops and level hero and you become so hard to kill
@@hruikanwell Vanessa can have infinite ammo with 1 specific skill. So yeah Vanessa perfect build had no counter.
I think his point is more along the lines of it's a knowledge gap.
There are ways to counter it that you have to consider including/finding in your build, especially if Skyscraper is meta. Nerfing if something is bugged or overtunned (why does a skyscraper go off in 3 seconds WITH MULTICAST) is one thing. Nerfing because the field/opponents refuse to take one of the multiple options to counter the build is capitulating and isn't good game design/management.
noob detected, truth is skyscraper was significantly inferior to throwing knives and perma freeze dooley, and icicle/clam is a massive counter to skyscrapers
@@arthurbarelli3315 the mindset is wrong here and I bet the game designers are aware of that. I'm a game designer but not on such complex games. The argument "just counter it" doesn't work because most builds simply can't and even if they could, what then you got 2 meta builds and every other build should conform around having counters to those? It's just another meta and less fun with that. Every class having a couple builds would be great but I think what Raynad is trying to achieve is that you can't force and the skill is in making the best of what you get.
The game will fix itself with updates that get new cards but right now forcing builds is too easy and if you don't force while there are obviously overpowered builds you just can't get to 10 wins if you don't play a meta build and you face meta builds too many times which is unhealthy.
It's a closed beta and they are doing really good work, I trust the game will be even more awesome at launch!
The skyscraper builds I have been seeing activate in under 1 second, and do 5-10k damage. so I am excited to see that stop...
13:40 Radiant items could also be frozen by Iceberg (when an enemy uses an item freeze it for 1s) iirc.
Kripp really downplaying how OP property was. Yeah couse we want pyg to have exactly 1 good build that you always try to play around
The docks nerf was a pretty big (and good) one, if you picked the middle option for tools it would almost always give you a free gold skill because the pool is so small. It was too much value.
It was a lot of value, but even so it was one of the more interesting ways to build Dooley. Dooley is still a blast to play, just more limited in his options.
@@UnknownRex Well it was interesting because the character you liked playing benefits a lot from getting free gold tier skills! lol.
Keep the Bazaar content coming!
Reynad cooked something for sure, I don't even have access to the game yet I'm out here watching patch reviews as if I will be playing it.
oh, you will
@14:13 This is wrong I had Radiant Items get frozen multiple times before patch. It was just inconsistent.
Even if you know how to counter something, you have no way of knowing what build you are up against.... Guess you hedge your bets the best way possible against the meta.
I think they should show you the enemy build before you start the fight. It would make it so you can keep stash slots for holding your counterplay items for beating certain builds.
This would only improve the player experience because it's not like the player you beat loses a match for it.
@@patrickrobertshaw7020 Hell nah
what are you talking about, your literally shown the character your going to fight before you click, that's why kripp always puts in caltrops from his stash against dooley when he has it
Whole build is too much maybe around 1-3 item to give you an idea or throw you off if the opponent is playing some weird build. It could be a double edge sword at least it will have some interactivity and decision making except for that hero's mo.
First time i see kripp sub count rise instead of drop, bazaar videos making a difference
"countering a 1.2 cast time one shot is easy, you just need to have this exact build"
He said you can just use any start of combat slow or freeze effect and gave an example - still specific, but not the same as dedicating an entire built, just 1 of your 10 slots
1 single silver small item = this exact build?
I had a 0.9 skyscraper. Unless you insta freeze, you lose
you're stupid, it's 1 item to counter it, not a whole build
Why do people misquote? Stop being disingenuous lol.
I get Kripp's point about skyscraper not being that big of an issue because "counterplay", but I have to disagree. The amount of builds you can actually pull off that beat getting 1 shot in 0.7-2 seconds is very low, and much harder to get than skyscraper, so I'm glad they toned it down
I agree with 40% cd being better than multicast. That math is a little different in aquatic where cds are low with hastes and charge. With Dooley, Kripp is correct in my mind 100%.
11111001111 is binary for 1999.
but I born in 1998
I wish someone would create a wikigg with all the items in the game (seen so far.) I'm tired of getting the option for enchantments and not knowing what they do until after I apply it.
They will soon im sure, just too new
The problem with skyscrapers isn’t that you cant counter it. Its that you can play Pyg however you want and just pick up 2 items in the later days to reach the build. Sure some people make it a 50k scraper, but you don’t need that. Once you get those 2 items, you pretty much always have a 3k shield 3k damage multicast build that kills anyone in 2 seconds. Meanwhile Dooleys out there try to synergize 10 small items to make a proper build.
Now its time to nerf Freeze
Item destruction and freeze is super unfun, I hate it, it doesn't feel super good to play with or against. It's so frustrating to have your build destroyed/frozen and unable to play :(
lies, freeze feels super good to play with sorry buddy cry more
behold, the problem with the card game stun archtype in a nutshell
maybe if they added ways to shake off freeze and/or repair destroyed items
Just faced the new incarnation of the dagger build. With crit reload and ways to trigger it. Pretty nasty stuff. Still managed to beat it with Dooley. The robot is strong when built right :)
I had a game where my radiant item was slowed frozen and destroyed. I think it happens if it was previously enchanted with something else in my case it had shielding then i found radiant and reenchanted it.
The iceberg specifically froze Radiant
I wish they would fix the pufferfish bug. I had triple ray double jellyfish from fishing rod, and the 18x pufferfish activation at once did not go off properly. Its a bad build but it was fun until I realized it wasn't working at all.
Idk if its bugged or he just has to throw 1 at a time. You probably had it queued forever, but its hard to know what thats guy is doing bug wise.
Enjoy the video, everyone!
You COULD freeze radiant, I did it with my most insane freeze builds when all other targets were already frozen it seemed.
That should be a bug though
They should make dam only destory 1 large or medium item +1 small item so with multicast 4 items
radiant items even after the patch still get frozen
Instead of them killing builds outright (e.g. the Dam), I would rather they make them rarer. Getting to these crazy builds is part of the fun, but it should be difficult. Hope they don't patch the fun out of the game.
Binary is pretty easy.
Right most „0“ or „1“ is a „1“.
Next one counts as a „2“, then „4“ and so on.
With that „11“ equals 3 in decimal.
„111“ is 7.
„110“ is 6
„1000“ is 8
It is the easiest thing, but no one can really read a long binary number.
It is effort.
As someone else wrote it is 1999.
So they messed up the joke exactly themselves for the same reason.
No one is better for knowing binary, but on the contrary it is easy.
(just about doubling and adding)
is the joke not just that the 0 in front doesent matter as its the same number (1999)?
@@jimmersc9789 Yes. That was the Joke in the Patchnotes.
Both Numbers are 1999 and the Song Reference is the same^^
I read bizarre
Is Kripp Finnish?
how bazaar
I kinda enjoy how the game transitions from a back and forth game to a Yu-Gi-Oh otk race. But I get how it gets stale haha
initial chill is the first time you use a large item, freeze and item for like 3 or 4 seconds depending on skill tier.
I had a freeze build with 2 large items, and that skill alone almost permafroze an enemy board with a fast item.
I reported that bug as soon as I realized it was triggering way more than it should have
The bug with Radiant not preventing destruction is so funny to me because the very last game I played before the servers went down for the patch was one where I was playing Dooley with some mega super key item I needed to make my build work.
I slapped Radiant on it like day 12 or 13 or something where I was like, "Okay, as long as this thing can't be destroyed, I should have a really good chance to win."
Next PvP match I encounter was somebody with a destruction item. "At least they can't destroy my... WTF THEY DESTROYED MY ITEM HUH??!?!?!" and then I lost at 9 wins. :) LOL
I dont mind a lot of balance patches, especially early, but they need to have clearer patch notes (exact numbers), and also to not completely gut items every patch.
Early, I get it, but if it continues, you're going to have to be hyper aware of patches or else you're giga punished.
nevertheless, nerfs are needed, if there is too much advantage in buffing items rather than nerfing them, the power level increases significantly
saw con > Bazaar con
Who the hell is Steve Jobs?
What is Bazaar con
Disappointing to see you defend 1 second TTKs just because there's a tiny amount of options that can beat them. It's clearly terrible for the game to have the majority of the items be useless since they can't compete in a 1-2 second meta. Kill times that fast are just stupid and don't allow the games mechanics to exist and function.
i am pretty sure that most of the game is about being gigaOP and makes exodia type builds. the main balance in the game is how often the giga exodia build appears because if it its too frequent than anything that isn't exodia build is unplayable.
He said it deserved the nerf!!
8 views in 2 seconds krip fell off
He's washed. Time to retire
@@rlrhino7he had 50k live viewer on TH-cam yesterday and streams everyday 10 hours. He is rank 2 in the world in this game. Why are you guys so jealous?
@@XPusatX Bro, it was too fat of a "joke" to miss it. Let them sh1t comment
@@XPusatX its a meme
@@XPusatX calm down nutgobbler