18 as a researcher. 13 as post-doc. At the end due to being above 40 years no longer admissible as assistante prof. “You are too old even thought you are the best”. Just got fired due to the lack of funding. Got more than 10 phd students
That’s a really tough situation. While my experience is different, I understand how difficult academic paths can be. I dropped out of a PhD program twice-once after completing my MS and again after passing my qualifying exams at a different university years later. I didn’t leave due to external pressure, but I decided the academic path wasn’t for me and moved into industry as a software developer, using my degrees in electrical engineering. While the reasons for leaving may vary, making that transition can still open up new opportunities. Wishing you the best!
Thanks, brings back memories. Since I did it a certain way I can give advice. I saw that I did not have the secret sauce to compete with my professors, so I went to work at a national lab, and literally lived happily ever after. Recently I went to work at another national lab, and am even more happy. Grad school is like minor league baseball. You have to judge yourself against Major leaguers. If you see that you can’t keep up, then go into coaching. It will save your knees.
I am defending my PhD thesis next week, and about to cry. This was all I really wanted, but now I feel so stupid. I am 35 and I have absolutely nothing, and I am extremely disappointed with academia!!
Best of luck for your thesis defence. It's a pretty dark time when you finish your thesis, exhausted, deflated and cynical. If it were easy everyone would make it to the end of their PhD! Well done, there's plenty of things to do with life after you finish. Eventually you'll come to define yourself in your own terms and be proud of what you've achieved!
Best of luck in your thesis defense! You're at the right moment. Don't go to the postdoc trap from which I am trying to escape now after almost 6 years in the system.
I am 37 and I am defending my PhD on Friday (today is Monday). I also regret taking this path. Mine is even complicated because I live in a country where I don't have a chance to get industry job because I am an immigrant. I am hoping to move to the US next year and start afresh at 38. I really feel sad about this.
@@mylifeisinhishandsamen4167 Hey! My thesis defense is also this Friday!! Good luck to us! Btw, I am from Brazil and I am in Canada as an international student. I feel you!
I once went to the desk of the IT gal who handled our data management to obtain help on some computer issues. She was busy helping another woman, so I stood there waiting, and thought to myself what a boring job. I am glad I am not doing that. Then the IT gal finished talking to the other gal with the statement: "I would hate to do R&D. It is so stressful. It would be horrible." It was a shock to hear that, but it was true. The job I had was certainly stressful and it was one that I could never truly learn. It was different every day. It was nothing I could settle into. I loved it and it was immensely satisfying at times, but it was eternally a fight to keep up and to execute. The IT gal's job may not be as exciting as mine, but it was certainly more predictable and controllable. It was something you could settle into and be comfortable. Something I never experienced until the very end of my career when I was a subject matter expert and was about ready to take my pension and run anyway.
Don't worry! You can still try an academic career. Perhaps it is something for you. If you don't like it there you can just go to industry. They also need scientists. And depending on the country you're from you may even get more favorable working conditions (such as paid overtime).
Don't be discouraged by one video. Any career has its own challenges, and no job is totally perfect. You should explore your own path yourself. This video presents one perspective but you may have a totally different experience, and there are a lot of exciting options for scientific careers outside academia that you can consider after your PhD🙂
That's why I never wanted to have this "upgrade". Uni is enough for doing your job. And to understand what brainstormers really want. Most of them are utterly unhappy and miserable but won't admit it. Either that or psychopathic 🤔😂
In Mexico when you get out of a masters degree or a phd you can compete for a teaching position, while the pay will be bad, and you will do research, basically for free, you do have a job, and a postion in the unviersity in which you will accumulate seniority, and that will give you an edge for when a research postion opens up in the same university
I realized that academia was a racket during grad school when I noticed that a 30-page paper suitable for "Physical Review" would get submitted as ten 3-page papers to "Physics Letters".
I love you 😂😂😂. I love how realistic you are. Thank you for showing all sides. ❤. I'm in Africa and it's shocking to see that even abroad things are pretty much the same.
Really spot on. And thanks for looking beyond postdoc positions. In fact, I know several people who are have brought in major, sometimes international grants more than once, are well-known and respected in their field, and still don't have a permanent position. In my impression, this is getting more common as academia is becoming ever more competitive.
Oh my goodness. I'm in my first semester of my PhD, but I've had similar impressions about supervisors since my Master's. I definitely need to try to make myself useful outside of academia.
It’s every career! You think you’re going to be a computer programmer and get away from people and their drama and ass-kissing and promoting yourself and bullshit, but no! You are still right there in the center of it!
And too many people competing for the small number of permanent jobs. When I left physics in the early 90s, so many people were getting PhDs in physics that the entire US professoriate could have been replaced in a few years. Since few of the tenured professors were leaving, the new graduates had no place to go but out of the field.
This was beautifully laid out. Coming from someone who has seen some of the horrors of academia first hand. I felt like you were describing my experience haha. And others that I know have experienced the same sort of things... By the way these are supposedly "well-funded" prestigious universities that I'm talking about. What a damn shame.
Hi Andy, thank you for the excellent video! I recently arrived in Australia on a Global Talent visa, with a background that includes education from top-tier universities, a former full professorship, international awards, grants, and a strong research record with over 70 papers and 6000 citations. Despite this, I’ve struggled to find academic positions here, ranging from professor to lecturer and researcher roles. It seems that overseas education and work experience may be seen as a disadvantage in the Australian academic job market. Interestingly, the Australian government created the Global Talent Visa program to attract high-caliber talent, yet universities here don’t seem to recognize it as an advantage for the country - they seem unaware of the program's significance. In contrast, in China, when a researcher is awarded a Talent program (even non-Chinese scientist), they automatically receive a university contract and a grant. Could you explore this issue in one of your future videos? Specifically, why foreign academic experience is undervalued in Australia, and what potential solutions might be for those in a similar situation?
I think a key takeaway here is that alternatives to the faculty track should be considered, and to be honest, preferred. Fortunately, there are more and more PhD programs popping up (in the U.S., at least) that actually push this-they send you to national labs to do your research with advisors who are staff scientists at those labs, and this makes it far more likely you will end up at a lab or in industry after. It doesn’t get you away from the savagery of funding competition (though there are places in labs where funding is set and available, like user facilities), but it does remove you from the rest of the issues with academia.
That's probably the track I'm taking too. The successful mentors I've seen are either a) in consulting b) also working in industry while holding a teaching and/or research post.
In this day and age it's difficult to discover/invent new useful technology. The pace for breakthroughs is difficult. I have read/talked to many people that say it's a game more than science. In the end it's all about money you can bring to the table. I feel things will get worse now that the free money is decreasing.
In Italy we have undergrad 3yrs master 2 yrs phd 3-? Yrs and the post doc. I love research I want to get into a PhD program next year but need to raise my CV points. Noone of your videos made me change my mind lol
@@Raphael4722 funny cuz I'm leaving it, it's not working out, aka I failed lol. Would like to create a new one abt philosophy and studying in the future and try again cuz I love TH-cam.
As ex PhD student I've thought about this a fair deal.... Given how inefficient/bureacratic academia supposedly is, is it still the place to generate knowledge? Or has knowledge generation stopped entirely? Feels like the answer is surely no but as this video suggests it's incredibly difficult to contribute to new science... Aware there's plenty of industry research out there but there's plenty of topics they won't touch during to lack of application. Does this mean that certain topics are just "out of reach" for us to make any progress on? It's as if there's "stressful academia" on the one hand and then "real science" as some mysterious thing out there which may or may not exist...
You might be interested in reading Not Even Trying by Bruce Charlton, a short book that makes the case that science has been largely killed off at this point
If you get paid, you have a job. I don't get why you place getting a "job" so far down. The job may not be permanent, but it's still a job if you get paid. Therefore, a phd is a job.
Depends on the country. Many PhDs that are paid from felloships/scholarships might not be considered Job experience for other purposes. I do agree with you that it is a job, but for many people outside (and sometimes even inside) academia PhDs are "just students".
@@paliatzoyria In my opinion, it's no different to an apprenticeship. Yes apprentices in trades aren't actual tradesmen/women but they're still seen as workers. The difference I suppose is that funding isn't always guaranteed in a phd, which is a shame.
@@mathew9851 In some countries, PhD students do not contribute to Social Security even though they are getting paid. This can make it harder for these people to retire early. Just one of many ways getting paid is not the same as having a job.
would that be true for the USA ? what if your first postdoc is in a leading lab with tons of money and niche but promising domain in the life sciences with a PI that's a factulty member that's going to open positions in the future?
Social science background but the same thing applies. Thank you, thanks to you I stopped at undergrad level and decided not to persue to become a resarcher
Engineering Undergraduate degree is better than Bachelor in Science. There is an hackathon organised in our country. As a chemistry major, I learnt it first time.
After going through all the hoops to get a permanent job in academia, and missing all the standard life milestones in the process, i feel stupid. I went that way because I was smart and smart people become scientists. All I'm exploring is creative ways in which paperwork brings grant money. Synergies, stakeholders, innovation and other magicomic words swim in my head along with knowledge of a world I have no tools to explore. Tools cost money, too. Academia is not worth it, unless you are ready to fake it big time.
Its a supply and demand issue. Everyone wants to do AI degrees these days. So you need experts to teach that. But experts are nowhere to be found in academia, because companies offer much better research environment, incomparably larger salaries. The remaining AI academics can be as arrogant and demanding as they like and they have privileges nobody else has, e.g., not ever show up to teach the classes, instead let the TAs do all the work.
All jobs are difficult and have their pros and cons, but working in science has the benefit of earning millions of dollars in salary, always being surrounded by women, having the admiration of young people, and going to bed knowing that you have saved the world every day. Only science can give you that.
Academia will be totally changed in the next ten years with the advent of AI and online learning. A lots of disciplines will be useless from now on. Academica will be shrunk in terms of the physical dimension, and it will go online . and most of the younger generation are also focused on learning skills so that they can earn money through it, not just a piece of paper from university, they are mostly reluctant to go to UNI. So, lots of academic staff will lose their job in the near future.
18 as a researcher. 13 as post-doc. At the end due to being above 40 years no longer admissible as assistante prof. “You are too old even thought you are the best”. Just got fired due to the lack of funding. Got more than 10 phd students
Age issues in academia? I have to say I'm surprised by that.
That’s a really tough situation. While my experience is different, I understand how difficult academic paths can be. I dropped out of a PhD program twice-once after completing my MS and again after passing my qualifying exams at a different university years later. I didn’t leave due to external pressure, but I decided the academic path wasn’t for me and moved into industry as a software developer, using my degrees in electrical engineering. While the reasons for leaving may vary, making that transition can still open up new opportunities. Wishing you the best!
Thanks, brings back memories. Since I did it a certain way I can give advice. I saw that I did not have the secret sauce to compete with my professors, so I went to work at a national lab, and literally lived happily ever after. Recently I went to work at another national lab, and am even more happy. Grad school is like minor league baseball. You have to judge yourself against Major leaguers. If you see that you can’t keep up, then go into coaching. It will save your knees.
I am defending my PhD thesis next week, and about to cry. This was all I really wanted, but now I feel so stupid. I am 35 and I have absolutely nothing, and I am extremely disappointed with academia!!
Best of luck for your thesis defence. It's a pretty dark time when you finish your thesis, exhausted, deflated and cynical. If it were easy everyone would make it to the end of their PhD! Well done, there's plenty of things to do with life after you finish. Eventually you'll come to define yourself in your own terms and be proud of what you've achieved!
Best of luck in your thesis defense! You're at the right moment. Don't go to the postdoc trap from which I am trying to escape now after almost 6 years in the system.
I am 37 and I am defending my PhD on Friday (today is Monday). I also regret taking this path. Mine is even complicated because I live in a country where I don't have a chance to get industry job because I am an immigrant. I am hoping to move to the US next year and start afresh at 38. I really feel sad about this.
@@mylifeisinhishandsamen4167 Hey! My thesis defense is also this Friday!! Good luck to us! Btw, I am from Brazil and I am in Canada as an international student. I feel you!
@@adamg9496 thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them!
I once went to the desk of the IT gal who handled our data management to obtain help on some computer issues. She was busy helping another woman, so I stood there waiting, and thought to myself what a boring job. I am glad I am not doing that. Then the IT gal finished talking to the other gal with the statement: "I would hate to do R&D. It is so stressful. It would be horrible." It was a shock to hear that, but it was true. The job I had was certainly stressful and it was one that I could never truly learn. It was different every day. It was nothing I could settle into. I loved it and it was immensely satisfying at times, but it was eternally a fight to keep up and to execute. The IT gal's job may not be as exciting as mine, but it was certainly more predictable and controllable. It was something you could settle into and be comfortable. Something I never experienced until the very end of my career when I was a subject matter expert and was about ready to take my pension and run anyway.
My dreams of being a scientist crushed in one video... 😢
😆🤣😂
Don't give up. Follow your passion.
Don't worry! You can still try an academic career. Perhaps it is something for you. If you don't like it there you can just go to industry. They also need scientists. And depending on the country you're from you may even get more favorable working conditions (such as paid overtime).
Don't be discouraged by one video.
Any career has its own challenges, and no job is totally perfect. You should explore your own path yourself.
This video presents one perspective but you may have a totally different experience, and there are a lot of exciting options for scientific careers outside academia that you can consider after your PhD🙂
That's why I never wanted to have this "upgrade". Uni is enough for doing your job.
And to understand what brainstormers really want.
Most of them are utterly unhappy and miserable but won't admit it. Either that or psychopathic 🤔😂
Just be an industry scientist!
In Mexico when you get out of a masters degree or a phd you can compete for a teaching position, while the pay will be bad, and you will do research, basically for free, you do have a job, and a postion in the unviersity in which you will accumulate seniority, and that will give you an edge for when a research postion opens up in the same university
En qué universidades recomiendas aplicar? Porque llevo un rato fuera de México y no he podido regresar a falta de oportunidades como estás.
Ya somos dos. Yo actualmente estoy en Milán @@ipaiki
Was going to say that it's similar to where I'm currently at. It is kinda chilling to realise how different other countries operate.
I realized that academia was a racket during grad school when I noticed that a 30-page paper suitable for "Physical Review" would get submitted as ten 3-page papers to "Physics Letters".
I love you 😂😂😂. I love how realistic you are. Thank you for showing all sides. ❤. I'm in Africa and it's shocking to see that even abroad things are pretty much the same.
In the last year of my chemistry PhD now, and trust me - I learned this all too late! I cannot wait to finish and leave academia!
Really spot on. And thanks for looking beyond postdoc positions. In fact, I know several people who are have brought in major, sometimes international grants more than once, are well-known and respected in their field, and still don't have a permanent position. In my impression, this is getting more common as academia is becoming ever more competitive.
Oh my goodness. I'm in my first semester of my PhD, but I've had similar impressions about supervisors since my Master's. I definitely need to try to make myself useful outside of academia.
It’s every career! You think you’re going to be a computer programmer and get away from people and their drama and ass-kissing and promoting yourself and bullshit, but no! You are still right there in the center of it!
Ah yes, the "academic ponzi scheme"
That’s an interesting way to put it. 🤔
@@raisingthesteam I saw it in a video I watched. The video is called "Is Academia a Ponzi Scheme" by the channel "Worthless Professor."
And too many people competing for the small number of permanent jobs. When I left physics in the early 90s, so many people were getting PhDs in physics that the entire US professoriate could have been replaced in a few years. Since few of the tenured professors were leaving, the new graduates had no place to go but out of the field.
This was beautifully laid out. Coming from someone who has seen some of the horrors of academia first hand. I felt like you were describing my experience haha. And others that I know have experienced the same sort of things... By the way these are supposedly "well-funded" prestigious universities that I'm talking about. What a damn shame.
Hi Andy, thank you for the excellent video! I recently arrived in Australia on a Global Talent visa, with a background that includes education from top-tier universities, a former full professorship, international awards, grants, and a strong research record with over 70 papers and 6000 citations. Despite this, I’ve struggled to find academic positions here, ranging from professor to lecturer and researcher roles. It seems that overseas education and work experience may be seen as a disadvantage in the Australian academic job market.
Interestingly, the Australian government created the Global Talent Visa program to attract high-caliber talent, yet universities here don’t seem to recognize it as an advantage for the country - they seem unaware of the program's significance. In contrast, in China, when a researcher is awarded a Talent program (even non-Chinese scientist), they automatically receive a university contract and a grant. Could you explore this issue in one of your future videos? Specifically, why foreign academic experience is undervalued in Australia, and what potential solutions might be for those in a similar situation?
Which is pretty ironic considering research in Australia is nothing compared to the USA, France, UK or China...
11:00 - the academia is an MLM then xd
I think a key takeaway here is that alternatives to the faculty track should be considered, and to be honest, preferred. Fortunately, there are more and more PhD programs popping up (in the U.S., at least) that actually push this-they send you to national labs to do your research with advisors who are staff scientists at those labs, and this makes it far more likely you will end up at a lab or in industry after. It doesn’t get you away from the savagery of funding competition (though there are places in labs where funding is set and available, like user facilities), but it does remove you from the rest of the issues with academia.
I would rather do manual job rather than writing a research paper. It is so fake, so time consuming and so unnecesary it drives me crazy.
Scientists dont just work for universities though. What about in the pharmaceutical industry, start ups ect.
That's probably the track I'm taking too. The successful mentors I've seen are either a) in consulting b) also working in industry while holding a teaching and/or research post.
that green schematic is gorge
In this day and age it's difficult to discover/invent new useful technology. The pace for breakthroughs is difficult. I have read/talked to many people that say it's a game more than science. In the end it's all about money you can bring to the table. I feel things will get worse now that the free money is decreasing.
In Italy we have undergrad 3yrs master 2 yrs phd 3-? Yrs and the post doc. I love research I want to get into a PhD program next year but need to raise my CV points. Noone of your videos made me change my mind lol
Must be nice to have an ASMR channel to fall back on if academia doesn't work out :)
@@Raphael4722 funny cuz I'm leaving it,
it's not working out, aka I failed lol. Would like to create a new one abt philosophy and studying in the future and try again cuz I love TH-cam.
As ex PhD student I've thought about this a fair deal.... Given how inefficient/bureacratic academia supposedly is, is it still the place to generate knowledge? Or has knowledge generation stopped entirely? Feels like the answer is surely no but as this video suggests it's incredibly difficult to contribute to new science...
Aware there's plenty of industry research out there but there's plenty of topics they won't touch during to lack of application. Does this mean that certain topics are just "out of reach" for us to make any progress on?
It's as if there's "stressful academia" on the one hand and then "real science" as some mysterious thing out there which may or may not exist...
You might be interested in reading Not Even Trying by Bruce Charlton, a short book that makes the case that science has been largely killed off at this point
If you get paid, you have a job. I don't get why you place getting a "job" so far down. The job may not be permanent, but it's still a job if you get paid. Therefore, a phd is a job.
Depends on the country. Many PhDs that are paid from felloships/scholarships might not be considered Job experience for other purposes. I do agree with you that it is a job, but for many people outside (and sometimes even inside) academia PhDs are "just students".
@@paliatzoyria In my opinion, it's no different to an apprenticeship. Yes apprentices in trades aren't actual tradesmen/women but they're still seen as workers. The difference I suppose is that funding isn't always guaranteed in a phd, which is a shame.
Paying someone else to work for them is called a pyramid scheme
@@mathew9851 In some countries, PhD students do not contribute to Social Security even though they are getting paid. This can make it harder for these people to retire early.
Just one of many ways getting paid is not the same as having a job.
Near end of ug was offered but like fuck that straight into industry.
But post docs are just publishing at most 1-2 papers in their post doc because post doc is just 2-3 years mostly
Spot on. It literally feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids.
would that be true for the USA ? what if your first postdoc is in a leading lab with tons of money and niche but promising domain in the life sciences with a PI that's a factulty member that's going to open positions in the future?
didn't get accepted into the master's program, so I'm here trying to find a reason not to feel bad, lmao
not getting into a grad school might be the best thing to ever happen (from a PhD)
Andy, when do you come back to the scientific research ?
Social science background but the same thing applies. Thank you, thanks to you I stopped at undergrad level and decided not to persue to become a resarcher
it seems troublesome that you need to spend 10 years in school in order to realize you don't actually like doing academic research.
Engineering Undergraduate degree is better than Bachelor in Science. There is an hackathon organised in our country. As a chemistry major, I learnt it first time.
1000000% agree
My engineering degree is a bachelor of science….
Eureka! 😂 I/O psychology researcher-practitioner here.
So glad I left academia 😅
Describing it like that it sounds like a pyramid scheme.
After going through all the hoops to get a permanent job in academia, and missing all the standard life milestones in the process, i feel stupid. I went that way because I was smart and smart people become scientists. All I'm exploring is creative ways in which paperwork brings grant money. Synergies, stakeholders, innovation and other magicomic words swim in my head along with knowledge of a world I have no tools to explore. Tools cost money, too. Academia is not worth it, unless you are ready to fake it big time.
Fakeness? I think they are all the same corporate videos and prospectus
Vhut?
Its a supply and demand issue. Everyone wants to do AI degrees these days. So you need experts to teach that. But experts are nowhere to be found in academia, because companies offer much better research environment, incomparably larger salaries. The remaining AI academics can be as arrogant and demanding as they like and they have privileges nobody else has, e.g., not ever show up to teach the classes, instead let the TAs do all the work.
All jobs are difficult and have their pros and cons, but working in science has the benefit of earning millions of dollars in salary, always being surrounded by women, having the admiration of young people, and going to bed knowing that you have saved the world every day. Only science can give you that.
Millions?
Academia will be totally changed in the next ten years with the advent of AI and online learning. A lots of disciplines will be useless from now on. Academica will be shrunk in terms of the physical dimension, and it will go online . and most of the younger generation are also focused on learning skills so that they can earn money through it, not just a piece of paper from university, they are mostly reluctant to go to UNI. So, lots of academic staff will lose their job in the near future.