I think I'm still learning what Jesus meant: "Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners" (Matthew 9:13). "And if you had known what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless" (Matthew 12:7). "For I desire steadfast love (mercy) and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6).
Exactly! When I listened late last night to this, those verses instantly sprang to mind. I was too tired to comment and came this morning to do so. You beat me to it by a couple of hours. 😄 Anyhow, excellent discussion! Thank you! Things I have previously contemplated but have found others in agreement. Encouraging!
It seems to me that, since Jesus was teaching the disciples about unconditional forgiveness (e.g. "forgive seventy times seven times", Matthew 18:21) without recompense or retribution, God himself would offer forgiveness on the basis of grace as well (Romans 3:24). Jesus was the righteous son who did the will of the Father on behalf of his brethren ("being obedient even to death", Philippians 2:8). Those who loved the son, were also loved by the Father (John 14:21; John 16:27). Thus, the Father forgives them all without retribution for the sake of the son (Ephesians 4:32).
Bill on a another topic what is your take on Yehovah or Yahweh ? Refuting the name Yehovah by Biblical Hebrew Scholar, Dr. William Barrick over Hebraist Dr. Nehemia Gordon There's a lot of back and forth on this like your opinion on this Thanks, Yah Bless !
@@Zipfreer I'm not super energized by the topic. I more or less know the arguments for both sides, that is, Yehovah/Yehowah or Yahweh. No matter what, when names are brought into other languages there will be transliteration and changes in pronunciation. People in foreign lands that I've lived in don't really pronounce either my first name or my family name the way I pronounce them. It doesn't bother me. I know they are referring to me. And, God is more gracious than I am.
@@Zipfreer ... I agree with Bill. It's pointless to dispute the pronunciation of YHWH because the ancient Hebrew language has been dead for 2,000 years so nobody knows what it actually sounded like anyway. Modern Hebrew is certainly not the same language. Thus, all efforts are somewhat speculative. Even during the apostolic era, the Jews were speaking numerous foreign dialects (Acts 2:5-11) which means it's likely that they were pronouncing biblical names differently in different regions like modern people do. The English language itself even has regional variations in pronunciation.
Been struggling with this subject for a while now, and this is really putting everything in the right perspective, thank you so much guys. And thank the Father for bringing us these understandings of Him and His righteousness! Everything Yahusha said (his parables etc) make so much more sense, He is bringing us back to the Father, NOT doing everyhing FOR us. We need to get active on our relationship with our loving Father.
This is the 2nd most important topic after the "godhead" discussion. We need to be pushing back against this injustice people ascribe to our God and Father. The idea that he punished an innocent man is blasphemous. Thanks for bringing light to this, Bill. Please keep shining!
The issue of each persons sin being the hurdle they seek redemption for, to me is a misunderstanding. We are caught "in sin" and suffer the consequences, but we are offered the way back out of it. Quite simple. This concept that each of us has so much sin and then they kind of add together and accumulate so there is so much and it seems like Jesus HAS to be God, to be "payment enough" to satisfy all the load of sin. This I see is a misunderstanding of the redemption of man. The issue is that of the enemy tempting Adam to self promote himself (as the devil himself wants to) by disobedience to eat of that tree of knowledge, which is to "grasp at equality with God " by his own doing. This is the sin that puts Adams domain in the ownership of the devil. The human family of God is now in the kingdom of the god of this world, the devil. Separated from God. So sin abounds and we are all caught in the problem of sin. i.e. we are all separated FROM God by our sin, a condition which was caused by Adams transgression. So this concept of penal substitution is the wrong context. Its not about your personal sin load that Jesus "HAS ' to die for. So stop saying things like "if only me and my sin was all there was in the world then God would come and die in my place" as that is not at all what the bible says. That is church speak, religious tradition. Jesus is the second/last Adam. He is born as per the promises in Gen3:15 and Deut18:18 and in all the prophets, as we see at his appearance described by John the Baptizer. "Behold the lamb OF God, that takes away the sin of the world..!" and this points out that we are separated by Adams act, from God, and that Jesus is the lamb of God, the lamb of blood covering for sin that will bring us back, its a collective solution by the father of the family, a family separated from him. A family doomed like those in Egypt at first passover, that God intervened and provided a covering for. It was the God offered choice for each Israelite and their friends. Jesus does not need to be quantified by degree as placed against the accumulated sin of you , me and everyone else. Jesus is the lamb who is provided as covering against the penalty, death. At first Passover the lamb is provided by father of each household, for the covering, signaled by sprinkled blood, of all who come under his door lintel, into his house, even neighbors and friends of other cultures. The blood is the covering. Just so Jesus as Gods lamb is the provision of redemption for who ever comes under his shed blood, by faith. All who call upon the name of Jesus (means authority) will be saved. Just like all who came into the Passover house in egypt at that first Passover was saved. Saved from what? From the death angel. Because the judgement was against Egypt and all in it. Those covered by the lambs blood were "passed over" by the death angel. Just so now, saved from the death angel who will cast the non believer into the cleansing fire. There will be a clean up! The people had a choice back then, come under the blood, or ignore it. Just so now, all who hear the message, be they Jew or Gentile, can by believing (faith) come under the blood of Gods lamb. Its the father providing the lamb of covering, for His human family, to escape the final death, the judgement that will come. All who claim they are under the blood of Gods lamb will be spared. All that dont will lose what they have, at the second death. Jesus died on a Passover, people tend to forget that. Jesus is called the lamb OF GOD. Its all for a reason. The lamb is Gods provision of salvation. All who do come under the blood of Jesus, by faith in the promise, find they are "born anew" and as no no longer Jew nor Gentile, but are one new man (type) are a "new creation in christ" and as such are born again back into Gods family, as yet in promise, sealed by Gods spirit within as a confirmation, but wait awhile yet till we are called, when we will be raised as Jesus was, he being the "first up from the dead, first of many brothers (us) who are to be raised incorruptible," in glory with Jesus. A "NEW CREATION." Thats it, we are called to be "sons of God" as was intended in the first place, except now we will be, in christ as he is, "so much higher than angels." This is the mystery that was hid in God. (actually a secret, as "mystery" has changed its meaning over time, where as a secret is something hid but once told is open to everyone.) Its as simple as that. God saves by provision. Jesus saves by being the provision. We save ourselves by obedience in accepting the provision by faith. Forget all this nonsense about only by God dying could the whole weight of sin be atoned, thats not what God is doing. It was Adams disobedience. The last Adam, as perfectly formed in the woman as the first Adam was formed of the dust, has paid the blood price for that one transgression that led to the separation. As by one man came sin, and through sin death, so by the last man has come life abundant. Its all on track. Get saved? Just ask!
Hi Ken, The key for me in all of this is James 2 v 14. Faith without works is dead. I note you state 5 lines above "We save ourselves - by obedience...in accepting the provision by faith"? I do not believe "we save ourselves" I think I know what you mean but we are, as you say saved by God, and we need to respond in faith. A gift to those who accept it and believe. Yes that faith needs to be alive, producing good works, fruits etc but it is faith, in what has been done for us, that we are saved. Yes that faith should/must "lead to" obedience and good works, but it is not we who save by our obedience. Our faith should lead to obedience. In love mate. Perhaps I took what you wrote incorrectly.
@@glenfrazer753 The owner of a large factory looks out the window and sees a child fall into an old disued well outside his boundary fence. He immediately sends the foreman outside the fence to help. The foreman throws a rope to the child. The child is raised to safety. Saved. Who saved the child? Manager sends head representative. Manager saves. Foreman uses rope. Foreman saves. Rope allows child a means of salvation. Rope saves. Child has to use considerable choice and work to hold to the rope to be saved. Child saves self through trust and obedience to rope offered, a free gift. Ultimately manager is source of salvation. God Foreman obediently goes. Jesus. Rope is sufficient. Blood. Child responds. Faith. Thanks for the response Glen, and for the opportunity to clarify to the readers who are locked into single verse theology.
Bill, i would also comment on this issue of "good works prepared before..." an that is to consider that perhaps Paul is not talking about works done concerning salvation, either before, after or causitive, but they might be works yet to be done, future yet, by those called (us) to be sons of God, raised and glorified as he Jesus has been raised. That being 1thes4:16 says the new creation believers, the church, will meet him in the air and always be with him. He returns and rules an earthly kingdom for 1000 years. There is not only rebel angelic beings to defeat at his return, but a whole lot of restoration to be done, paradise regained, waiting. Remember all creation groans in travail (metaphor) waiting for the revealing of the sons of God (us called to be sons of God). Theres gonna be good work to do, personally i am looking forward to it. If we are "always going to be with him" and he rules from Davids throne for 1000yrs, then thats gonna be head office for christians, to restore and set right what the canker worm has ruined. just thinking out loud like.
Good point at 51:00 about only works and only faith, I've often thought this is the meaning of Zec 13:8 "In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’” Also just thinking something is not a work, read Matthew 25.
I think there is something wrong with the standard simplified Calvinist form of PSA and Kevin did a good job showing that. But I don’t think he did a full enough job giving a positive vision for a different and better atonement theology.
consider the lamb of God then, under who's blood we are covered. The jewish passover was a foreshadow, the perfect passover happened, we are saved from the second death by calling on the authority of Jesus, his shed blood covers us by faith. need any more? As for calvinist simplified or complex, theres something wrong with it.
I was happy to find a discussion on substitutionary atonement, and I agree that it's not a true model. However, towards the end of the video I found it unsettling, hearing the ideas about remission of sins. And I think they were leaning heavily toward a works based salvation. Although Kevin did say he was trying to present a balanced approach, I don't think he did in this regard. We had a change in the understanding of the removal of sin, where instead of God removing it, we have to remove it ourselves. I know forgiveness was mentioned as well, but it certainly left me feeling that the onus was all on us to be righteous. My view is that Jesus, in his death, overcame sin, and destroyed the flesh. Something only he could do, as a sinless man. He also took the law out of the way, nailing it to his cross, because it was against us. Again, something only he could do, because he perfectly fulfilled it, making it no longer necessary. The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and nobody is continually under a school teacher. There comes a time when we've been taught, the tuition comes to an end, and we go into the world of work. So, Jesus died as a representative of the human race, and in so doing removed the enmity which is both in our flesh, and in the Law of Moses. And by taking those away, he made it possible for both Jew and Gentile to be brought near to God, thus making full forgiveness available to us. Because if we are near God, we are near the one who is by nature forgiving. Like with the prodigal son, as soon as the son came near his father, he benefited from unrestrained grace. Of course, he had to leave his old life behind, but that didn't take away the sins that had been committed. Only forgiveness could do that.
Here is my general canned response about us needing to stop sinning: God expects YOU to STOP sinning! "But now that YOU HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM SIN sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 ESV “God, having raised up His servant Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.” Acts 3:26 “You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.” 1 John 3:5-7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses US from all sin." 1 John 1:7 “In Him we have redemption [liberation] through His blood, the forgiveness [aphesin/release] of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” Eph. 1:7 “He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [liberation] through His blood, the forgiveness [aphesin, release] of sins.” Col. 1:13-14 “God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness [aphesin/release] of sins.” Acts 5:31 At Paul's conversion, Ananias told him, “Arise and be baptized, [you] and wash away your sins, calling on his name” Acts 22:16. Instead of having Jesus pay for his sin, Paul was told to wash his own sins away, which is to repent and commit to stop sinning, be baptized, and follow after the authority of Jesus. “…To open their eyes to turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness [aphesin, release] of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” Acts 26:18 “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age…Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem [liberate] us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” Titus 2 “To him who loves us and has FREED US FROM OUR SINS by his blood.” Rev. 1:5 (The blood covenant, properly understood, liberates us from bondage to sin. The blood is not a payment to God so He can forgive us or ignore our sin.) “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. THEY have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev. 7:14 “Blessed are those who WASH THEIR robes, SO THAT they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.” Rev. 22:14 "It was given to her to CLOTHE HERSELF in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Rev. 19:8 “Knowing that you were ransomed FROM the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.” 1 Peter 1:18-19 Notice that the “ransom” has to do with freeing, releasing, from sin, “from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers.” “Ransomed” here is used metaphorically. Yes, we were ransomed by the precious blood of Christ, but as a consequence of this, we were set free from bondage to sin. “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. [YOU] Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.” James 4:8
@kevingeorge1095 Thanks Kevin, I'm familiar with all those passages, and I like all of them. I agree with the point about stopping sinning, but I just wouldn't try to attach it to every passage that you have. For example, when Ananias told Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins, I would interpret that as directly linked to the immersion. That is, by connecting himself with Christ through baptism, his sins would now be forgiven, or washed away. Obviously he had to stop persecuting people, but that wouldn't take away the grave sins he'd already committed. Those had to be washed away through forgiveness. I think linking washing with baptism is a more straightforward interpretation, seeing as both have to do with water. I agree, the blood is not a payment to God. Jesus said it was the blood of the New Covenant. And like the Old Covenant was sprinkled with blood to bring it into effect, so the new one was sprinkled with blood to make it effective. The old one was sprinkled with the blood of a dying animal, making it temporary, and the new one with the blood of someone who would be made immortal, making it permanent. Therefore the blood brings the covenant into force, and it's a covenant of forgiveness, according to the end of Hebrews 8, and 10:16-17. We then enter that covenant through faith and baptism, and receive the forgiveness it offers. This would also connect with the ransoming you mentioned. Where the blood of the covenant was, in effect, a ransom payment to set us free. That is, only Jesus' blood was good enough to sprinkle the covenant. Like a ransom amount that only a certain one can pay because it's so high. Under that covenant we now benefit from being made free from our old life. That is, we are freed from the life of unbelief or being without God. And once freed from it we seek to live accordingly, trying to avoid sin. Also, I appreciate that you're reacting against the passivity which the PSA model can encourage, which you mentioned at the end of the video. It just came across to me that you were swinging the pendulum too far the other way, with some of your interpretations. And I think we can already get a balanced view without having to redefine what remission of sins means.
Thanks for making an episode on this. It is one of my personal peeves. Every mainstream christian I hear says "Jesus died to pay your sin debt." That is nowhere in the bible. Payment of debt and forgiveness are mutually exclusive things. Mainstream christians equivocate those two terms even though it makes no sense. Like you two talk about, it also contradicts many passages of scripture. I have wanted to make a video myself about this topic, but never got around to it. I'm too lazy and would rather play videogames or watch TV in my free time.
Thanks, Bill. Looking forward to Kevin's DEBATE: Did Christ die in our place as a ransom for sins? December 16, 1 pm EST th-cam.com/video/xINTkIFPwrQ/w-d-xo.html
I agree wholeheartedly with this the only thing I disagree on is bringing up eternal conscience torment which is truly not biblical or in God's nature to do such a thing since he is a God of love and shall burn up his enemies with love. ECT limits the mercy of God and lengthens his anger when the scriptures clearly say his anger is for a short time and his mercy is forever just as our lives are for short time as a vapor here today and gone tomorrow. I idea of hell is a pagan concept that needs burned out of our minds and heart about God.
The reason I mentioned ECT is because it seems to me that usually people who promote a penal substitution concept also believe that God eternally, consciously torments humans.
@billschlegel1 I was hoping that was the reason and you didn't change your mind since I thought I seen in the past that you no longer believed in ECT. So glad to hear that brother ❤️
@@scottcatalanotto On that you heard right, I do not believe that God eternally, consciously torments people, disembodied or otherwise. The wages of sin is death. The wide road leads to destruction, not having an inheritance in the kingdom of God.
This discussion should motivate the listener to turn away from any belief system in which the Father and the Son are said to be two distinct persons, and to turn to the _unipersonal_ God - JESUS - who laid down his own life for us.
@@ken440 1 JOHN 2:22 (KJV) _Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son._
The verse opens with a rhetorical question concerning the denial of *a singular person:* "Jesus...the Christ". It would naturally follow then, that the _answer_ to the rhetorical question _also_ concerns the denial of *that same singular person:* "the Father and the Son".
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A son who is compelled by his personally distinct father to die an unimaginably horrifying death, _for whatever reason,_ is the son of an extremely _wicked_ father.
But a _Son_ who is compelled by _his own eternal self_ ("the Father") to die an unimaginably horrifying death, in order to deliver us from the consequences of sin, is the Son of an extremely _loving_ Father.......the Father whose _name_ is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*
JOHN 15:13 (KJV) _Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life_ [not the life of some other person] _for his friends._
Jesus said that the God of Israel is the FATHER. As he said, "If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God". The God of the Jews is Jesus' Father. And He is the one who honors Jesus, and he is the one who sent Jesus. That's definitely two persons: one who sends, and one who is sent. One who honors, and one who is honored. One of them is God, one of them is man. It's just that simple.
@@jonorisin73 The idea that the Father and the Son are two distinct persons is indeed a simple idea. And this simple idea results in a "Father" who is guilty of the abomination of child sacrifice because he commanded his personally distinct "Son" to die an incomprehensibly horrifying death on the cross. Very simple, and very evil.
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Here's the very simple *truth:*
1. God is a Spirit, a _unipersonal_ Spirit. (John 4:24) 2. God, the unipersonal Spirit, is love. (1 John 4:8,16) 3. The greatest demonstration of love is to lay down one's own life for others. (John 15:13) 4. So God, the unipersonal Spirit who is love, laid down his own life for us (1 John 3:16). He "came down from heaven" _without leaving heaven,_ and manifested _himself_ on earth in genuine human form ("God was manifest in the flesh" - 1 Tim.3:16), as _his own_ Son. He shed _his own_ blood on the cross, raised _himself_ from the dead, and now gives eternal life to all who believe on _him._ And _his_ name is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*
Repent of the heresy of -Biblical- Unitarianism, and receive the revelation of the self-sacrificial love of the one _true_ God, the Lord JESUS Christ.
I can agree with many of the points brought up here however there seems to be many scriptures that DO point to penal substitution such as David's son dieing, and he would live by the sword, his daughter raped etc., as a result of his adultery and murder. That is just one example and there are many like it in scripture. So I'm still struggling with all this. It doesn't seem clear❤
Hi Bill, surprised we have not spoke yet about WHY Jerusalem exactly WEST of Mouth of Dead Sea. Re: Atonement -- I recommend Jim Dillingham (TH-cam) -- YHWH's Righteousness #8 in series ! Thomas
@ken440 Bill, realizing YHWH uses East (Sin / Judgement) vs. West (Righteouness / Reward) enables us to have those eyes to see & ears to hear His preferred complexity of communication as a multitudinous expression of His truth in harmony. I believe YHWH intentionally hides His Glory for us to find. Another example: Jesus was on the cross for "6" hours, "6"00 hundred chosen chariots destroyed, Noah "6"00 years when flood began, Goliath's "6" components of his armour, man created "6"th day ... and this is why YHWH made Carbon #6 (dust) -- 6e6p6n. Lev.4:11 -- lists "6" rejected components. This same harmony works for #8 Oxygen (8e8p8n) -- Gematria of Jesus' "6" greek letters adds to 888. 6 greek letters projects Jesus "made sin" and "#8" projects Jesus knew no sin (perfect righteousness). Bill this is why King Uzziah died @ 68 -- Glory of YHWH manifested in Jesus.
@tp644 so how far do you have to go west until you find yourself east? West for me is good fishing, while east is the pacific ocean. You might find folk living in Asia might be insulted by your idea. Unless you live in Asia, or New Zealand like me, when east would be the evil USA.... so you might have something there.
Bill I want to mention the subject you brought up at about 46 minutes in. That Peters sermon cut the jews to the heart, and he said "be baptized in the name of Jesus." Now first i want to point out that in the NT we see a lot of mention of "the name of Jesus" and indeed most folk state this in prayers, because Jesus said "what ever you ask in my name..." and we read that he was raised and "given a name greater than all others" Theres something important here, and folk are likely to want to shoot the messenger when i expand on it... He was already called Yashua (Jesus) so whats with being given a name greater when he is raised??? because he is still Yashua , Jesus. Think of the old movie, the hero chases the villian and shouts "stop in the name of the law!" Its not the spelling, law, its the authority represented BY the law mentioned. Now when Jesus was raised he was glorified, scripture says, "so much higher than angels" and there is the key to grasping this. The same name, Jesus, our lord, is glorified and given all power and authority. He has been given huge authority now, higher than the angels (he was lower than them when he walked into Jerusalem) its about authority given... !! We are born anew, in christ. Into that authority, which is why we can also cast out unclean spirits. Because we are sealed in "the same spirit that raised christ from the dead." So, here is where baptist folk are going to yell at me..... when Peter says Be baptized in the "name of Jesus," I dont see this as a comand to be water baptized while someone says "in the name of Jesus" instead of "in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost." That is all religion. The greek word baptizo of how ever it is spelled, means to be immersed. You baptize a tea bag when ever you use one. Peter, as I see it, is telling them they need to be filled with the spirit that Jesus has the authority to immerse us in. Be become "in christ" as John T Baptist said "I baptize with water, but one comes who will baptize in power of the spirit, and in fire. (the last one will be the unbelievers at second death.. in fire). i.e. be immersed in the authority that Jesus introduces us to, the spirit of God within us. Because Peter is answering these people about what has just happened, how come this miraculous spirit event has just happened in their hearing. Peter says "you can have this too!" i.e. get saved and the spirit of God will fill you, immerse you too. Im a nondunkificationist.... ha ha ha. lol. worth thinking seriously about for us who have bucked the religious system Bill. blessings.
What you both are saying is that you are saved by works. It’s that simple. There is no middle ground. If election is by grace it is no longer by works or grace is no longer grace. And off by works then it is not by grace, or work is no longer work. Paul
The greater context of Romans 11:6 is about God favoring one people group over another people group for a given function or purpose. This is not a passage about personal salvation. “1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite... 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel… 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election [of Israel] of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded…11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.” Rom. 11:1-11 summarized.
@@anotherheretic As I understand it, Jesus and Paul teach essentially the same thing (in relation to this specific topic, at least), once the distortion of Reformed Theology is set aside. Jesus teaches… “An hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have DONE GOOD to the resurrection of life, and those who have DONE EVIL to the resurrection of judgment.” John 5:28-29 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME, and cast out demons in your name, and DO many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you WORKERS of lawlessness.’” Mat. 7:21-23 Paul teaches… “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” Romans 2:6-13 “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get LEADS TO sanctification and ITS END, eternal life.” Romans 6:22 “If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Romans 8:13 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.” Acts 26:19-20 “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:18-21
Was substitution out of a need for justice? Or purely out of God's grace and mercy? These are arguments without purpose. God is one and all aspects we can see (justice, goodness, mercy, etc.) are simply revealed expressions of his perfect Being, which is truly indivisible. Just as in the resurrection to come, our own being will be healed, and we will become integrated wholes.
@@billschlegel1 This type of splitting hairs is what the scholars discuss when defining categories of atonement doctrine. At the core of the discussion is not really atonement itself, which is Biblically explicit, but differing ways of seeing God.
Jesus died on Passover. What was Passover about? The angel of death passing over a person who followed God’s instructions. I see nothing in Passover about sins or atonement. The importance of Jesus dying was showing that God can resurrect us. Power over death.
I find it strange you cant see the lamb provided, in Jesus. All over scripture the "lamb of God" is promised. Passover, the original passover, was indeed those folk being "passed over" in the event of the foretold judgement on the land of egypt. Its all about avoidance of judgement. All who had by faith (by believing the promise) come UNDER the sprinkled blood would be passed over. Avoiding the judgement. The "lamb" was provided by the father of the household, and the blood covering was for as many as came under it in that house, no death judgement. Now come forward to the present, we are Gods children lost to Him in figurative egypt, under many gods, none of them the creator God our true father. We who are descended from the line of Adam are caught in Adams transgretion. We are all doomed to the judgement of death. The death angel will throw us into the lake of fire at judgement time for all. However as J T Bapist saud "behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin..." So here we see the lamb OF God, Jesus/Yeshua, (im not going to argue with anyone about cultural spelljng). Jesus is the specially begotten son of God. A "last Adam." A spotless one of the flock (the rest of us) and he was killed on a passover, shedding his blood as a covering, so all who by faith believe in that , are covered by the blood. Are saved from judgement death in promise. The actual full salvation is not manifested until the final judgement, but we are sealed in Gods spirit as a witness, a promissory note you could say perhaps. Jesus, Gods provided lamb, is first up from the dead, first of many brothers (the rest of us who call on the authority of his blood covering) who will (yet) be raised as he is raised. Then will we be truly saved. So as passover lamb, he has saved us, by being Gods provision. We save ourselves by faith in Gods provision of that lamb of covering. Thats why its important regarding passover. We were caught in sin, so were sinful, regardless of your or my personal sins, (its got nothing to do with accumulation of individuals sins needing any particular amount or value of atonement) the sin of Adam, a blood debt, is paid by the obedience of the second/last Adam in following his Gods plan of provision of salvation. We are all saved, if we simply accept what is offered in faith, we are covered by that blood. If we reject it then we will pay the consequence at that final judgement, by being consumed in the fires of cleansing (gehenna fires).
@ it’s Passover, meaning death passing over those who had the blood on the doorposts. No sin or forgiveness mentioned. Jesus is fulfilling all 7 feasts chronologically it seems. Atonement comes later in the chronology. Why are people conflating day of atonement with Passover? They have different purposes.
Regarding Passover...Sacrificing sheep was an insult to the Egyptians, and it had the potential of being stoned to death (Genesis 43:32, 46:34, Exodus 8:25-27). The Passover was also about God making a distinction between the firstborn sons of the heathen by sparing the Hebrew sons. All the plagues were to distinguish between the Hebrew people and their God versus the Egyptians and their gods. The Hebrew people removed themselves from the pagan world around them by posting the blood of a lamb above their doors, directly identifying which house was abominable to the Egyptians. We who are followers of Christ are also to be distinguished from the sinful world, and in that sense, the blood of Christ functions as our Passover lamb. Furthermore, the Passover is when the Egyptians essentially expelled God's people - in fact, they were kind of paid to leave, the opposite of God paying a literal ransom. "The people of Israel had also done as Moses told them, for they had asked the Egyptians for silver and gold jewelry and for clothing. 36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians." Ex. 12:35-36. Passover is when God's people were redeemed from Egypt. Psalm 74:2 “Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, which You have redeemed to be the tribe of Your inheritance; and this Mount Zion, where You have dwelt.” (Psalm 74:2) Most people are taught that to redeem is primarily about making a payment, but to redeem in the biblical sense is primarily to set something free. God did not pay the Egyptians anything when Israel was set free from Egypt. The Passover was not about a payment for sin, it was a sign of loyalty to God in the face of potential death, leading to victory over being enslaved. Today, Jesus is our Passover. "Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed." 1 Cor. 5:7 1 Cor. 5:7 links the Passover to cleansing from sin. In the way that leaven is to be removed to have a new lump, and as a parallel to Israel's removal from Egypt, so too must sin be removed. "But now that you have been SET FREE from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get LEADS to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 ESV
Wasn’t blood used for sealing a covenant and not only for sin? I’m just saying the typology of Passover doesn’t equate to people combining Passover and atonement into one event.
Kevin mistranslates Rom 4:25 as: “Jesus was delivered through our sins." This is not only meaningless in English but in any other language, like my native Spanish! But more than that, this is grammatically wrong because Paul uses the Greek preposition DIA plus or with an accusative noun (sins/trespasses) hence DIA is invariably translated as "because of" or simply "for" and never as "through." That’s why no translation supports his reading! For more see th-cam.com/video/Xr_SvITWK30/w-d-xo.html
Actually Abraham accounted it to GOD as righteousness, not the other way around th-cam.com/video/bBoVJtyzEW0/w-d-xo.html at 22:40 and th-cam.com/video/FO66vuxau8Q/w-d-xo.html at 32:00
as useal if people just listen to god rather than to each other, than we have an answer. what did yeshua said about his crucifixion. he said the same thing almost every time. Matthew 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-32, Luke 9:21-22, Mark 8:31, Matthew 17:22-23, Mark 9:30-32, Luke 9:43-45, Matthew 20:17-19, Mark 10:32-34, Luke 18:31-34 in other words something like "i must suffer and be killed by men, jews and gentile, by decision of the religious leaders of gods people. and then resurrect after 3 days". there is one time he say matthew 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” so he had to suffer what he did. expose the wickedness humanity including organised religion, but also to show they have only temporary power. because god can resurrect. and also but not the main reason to to pay some price for sins of those that would be saved by him.
All your obvious confusion will be answered if you answer these questions truthfully. I don’t think you can do it, so it’s gonna have to be the Holy Spirit. Blessings. Has anyone ever tested Paul to see if he is an approved Apostle? It seems everyone is relying on his epistles being in the canon since the mid 300’s. Can there be a 13th apostle who never was taught by Jesus, didn’t learn anything from the 12 apostles hand picked by Jesus, brings a MYSTERY gospel that was not spoken of by Jesus on earth? Matt 19:23, Rev 21:14, Gal 1:12,16, Gal 2:6-9, Acts 22:18 We are required to test doctrines, teachers, prophets, or spirits. Deuteronomy 13 is called the Punishment of Apostates passage. Does God test us with false prophets? How do we show we love God in Deut 13? Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits - 1 John 4:1 The Bereans were more noble.. Searching the scriptures whether those things were so (right after Paul arrives) - Acts 17:11 All Asia turned against Paul. Ephesians rejected Paul. Rev 2:2 Jesus commends Ephesus for rejecting a false apostle and found them liars. Jesus could not contradict the Old Testament. Any teacher after Jesus must be consistent with Jesus. They must also not contradict themselves. John 5:46-47 Matt 5:17 1 John 4:2-3 antichrist denies that Jesus came in the flesh. 1 John 2:18-22 antichrist denies the father and the son (deny can mean contradict). Paul says “in the appearance of a man”. There must be two or three witnesses to a matter. Can Paul be his only witness? Deut 19:15 In Matthew 24 Jesus says do not be deceived. Do not believe the one who says they meet Jesus in the wilderness (road to Damascus?) or in an inner room (jail cell?). All eyes will see Jesus when he returns. Can Jesus pop in and out visiting any person in private? Matt 24 - as lightning goes from east to west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man. What does being a wolf in sheep’s clothing mean? It means that someone can speak sheep words (truth) but also speak as a wolf (lies). We have to discern if someone is a wolf by looking for their words that contradict Jesus. Beware of RAVENING wolves - Matthew 7. Benjamin is a RAVENING wolf - Gen 49. Who is from the tribe of Benjamin? Benjamin kills in the morning and divides the spoils in the evening. Who murdered Christians at first, then converts but never joins with the Jerusalem church and starts his own churches? The Bible says the 12 apostles are the foundations but Paul says he builds on no one else’s foundation. Should a teacher like Paul quote Jesus a lot? Should we be wary of someone who is a Pharisee? Beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod Mark 8:15; Matt 6:6,12. Who was of the family of Herod? The leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy (deceit, acting: Jew to the Jew, Greek to the Greeks). Who claimed he used deceit to spread HIS gospel? 2 Cor 12:16 What are the qualifications of an apostle in the one example we have? Acts 1:21-22: been with the apostles from John’s baptism until the ascension. At Peter’s denial he was asked three questions: 1) were you with Jesus? 2)were you with his disciples? 3) are you a Gaililean? How would Paul answer those? Can someone who says they have a demon of Satan in them also have the Holy Spirit? Do you know that Luther and Carlstadt turned against Paul and faith alone? Right after Jesus’s ascension a group called the poor, Ebionites, rejected Paul. Every so often from then on people and scholars have found some odd things about Paul where he contradicts Jesus. Deuteronomy 18 speaks of a prophet like Moses whom God will speak through. This is Jesus. In Numbers 12 Aaron and Miriam challenge Moses’s authority because they had dreams and visions. God says those are inferior to him speaking face to face with Moses. God speaks through Jesus. I would say that is the highest form of communication. Who is this self proclaimed Apostle who says he has a vision, goes to the 3rd heaven but can’t tell us the unutterable words he may or may not have heard???
Faith then Works / Knowledge then Love / Bread then Wine -- Hierarchy is YHWH policy ! Altar of BURNT OFFERING -- Jesus is our Representative -- eat Flesh drink blood ! Thomas
Not a very clear explanation of penal substitutionary atonement. Jesus took the "Judgement" for our sins which is physical "death". Jesus was the divinely conceived Son of God and a perfect human being who never sinned and overcame temptation and sin. He was the 'spotless' Lamb of God and God raised him from "death" because technically he was 'not guilty' and therefore 'death' ( the sentence of death) could not hold him. Because Christ rose from the dead we who put our faith in him will rise too to eternal life. ALL MEN DIE is a FACT of LIFE. DEATH is the CONSEQUENCE of Sin. Jesus TOOK the CURSE OF THE LAW which is DEATH for us. Bringing forth the fruit of Salvation shows the evidence of our salvation.
If Jesus took our judgement of physical death, why do we still die? And why will people die when Jesus returns? Doesn’t sound like he took a punishment if we are still receiving the punishment of death 🤷🏼♂️
@@davidbrachetto1420Gen 2:17 ISV but you are not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because you will certainly die during the day that you eat from it.” Adam died that DAY if not God lied That day Adam was taken out of the garden the garden represents a temple, dwelling place of God sin seperated Adam from dwelling with God its spiritual as God is Spirit Luk 15:24 ISV Because my son was dead and has come back to life. He was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate. The father see the son AS DEAD! but it was not physical it was a separation from his presence Eze 37:9 ISV Then he ordered me, “Prophesy to the Spirit, Son of Man. Tell the Spirit, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: “Come from the four winds, you Spirit, and breathe into these people who have been killed, so they will live.”’” When does the Spirit come into these dead people? Act 2:3-4 ISV 3 They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated, and one rested on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign languages as the Spirit gave them that ability. Born again 🎉🎉🎉
@robertrecchia2642 Luk 21:20-22 ISV 20 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then understand that its devastation is approaching. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, those inside the city must leave it, and those in the countryside must not go into it, 22 because these are the days of vengeance when all that is written will be fulfilled. Everything was fulfilled 2000years ago Dan 12:1-2 ISV 1 “‘At that time, Michael will arise, the great prince who will stand up on behalf of your people, and a time of trouble will come like there has never been since nations began until that time. Also at that time, your people will be delivered-everyone who will have been written in the book. 2 Many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken-some to life everlasting, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt. The wedding feast and the marriage has taken place, the great tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem finished, Rev 20:13 ISV The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their actions. The great white throne judgement Finished We are in the new heavens and earth, that represents the new covenant people that are in christ who have been born again SPIRITUALLY who have eternal life who will never die
I think I'm still learning what Jesus meant:
"Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners" (Matthew 9:13).
"And if you had known what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless" (Matthew 12:7).
"For I desire steadfast love (mercy) and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6).
Exactly! When I listened late last night to this, those verses instantly sprang to mind. I was too tired to comment and came this morning to do so. You beat me to it by a couple of hours. 😄 Anyhow, excellent discussion! Thank you! Things I have previously contemplated but have found others in agreement. Encouraging!
It seems to me that, since Jesus was teaching the disciples about unconditional forgiveness (e.g. "forgive seventy times seven times", Matthew 18:21) without recompense or retribution, God himself would offer forgiveness on the basis of grace as well (Romans 3:24). Jesus was the righteous son who did the will of the Father on behalf of his brethren ("being obedient even to death", Philippians 2:8). Those who loved the son, were also loved by the Father (John 14:21; John 16:27). Thus, the Father forgives them all without retribution for the sake of the son (Ephesians 4:32).
Bill on a another topic what is your take on Yehovah or Yahweh ? Refuting the name Yehovah by Biblical Hebrew Scholar, Dr. William Barrick over Hebraist Dr. Nehemia Gordon There's a lot of back and forth on this like your opinion on this Thanks, Yah Bless !
@@Zipfreer I'm not super energized by the topic. I more or less know the arguments for both sides, that is, Yehovah/Yehowah or Yahweh. No matter what, when names are brought into other languages there will be transliteration and changes in pronunciation. People in foreign lands that I've lived in don't really pronounce either my first name or my family name the way I pronounce them. It doesn't bother me. I know they are referring to me. And, God is more gracious than I am.
@@Zipfreer ... I agree with Bill. It's pointless to dispute the pronunciation of YHWH because the ancient Hebrew language has been dead for 2,000 years so nobody knows what it actually sounded like anyway. Modern Hebrew is certainly not the same language. Thus, all efforts are somewhat speculative. Even during the apostolic era, the Jews were speaking numerous foreign dialects (Acts 2:5-11) which means it's likely that they were pronouncing biblical names differently in different regions like modern people do. The English language itself even has regional variations in pronunciation.
Been struggling with this subject for a while now, and this is really putting everything in the right perspective, thank you so much guys. And thank the Father for bringing us these understandings of Him and His righteousness! Everything Yahusha said (his parables etc) make so much more sense, He is bringing us back to the Father, NOT doing everyhing FOR us. We need to get active on our relationship with our loving Father.
What a super episode!
First time in your channel. I'll now binge-watch your videos 😅
Welcome!
“Following Jesus, your life will reflect his teaching”. Amen Amen.
Thanks Bill
Super interesting
I’ve wondered about some of these concepts before
I’ll check out his book
Very thought provoking. Thank you.
This is the 2nd most important topic after the "godhead" discussion. We need to be pushing back against this injustice people ascribe to our God and Father. The idea that he punished an innocent man is blasphemous.
Thanks for bringing light to this, Bill. Please keep shining!
The issue of each persons sin being the hurdle they seek redemption for, to me is a misunderstanding. We are caught "in sin" and suffer the consequences, but we are offered the way back out of it. Quite simple.
This concept that each of us has so much sin and then they kind of add together and accumulate so there is so much and it seems like Jesus HAS to be God, to be "payment enough" to satisfy all the load of sin. This I see is a misunderstanding of the redemption of man.
The issue is that of the enemy tempting Adam to self promote himself (as the devil himself wants to) by disobedience to eat of that tree of knowledge, which is to "grasp at equality with God " by his own doing. This is the sin that puts Adams domain in the ownership of the devil. The human family of God is now in the kingdom of the god of this world, the devil. Separated from God. So sin abounds and we are all caught in the problem of sin. i.e. we are all separated FROM God by our sin, a condition which was caused by Adams transgression.
So this concept of penal substitution is the wrong context. Its not about your personal sin load that Jesus "HAS ' to die for. So stop saying things like "if only me and my sin was all there was in the world then God would come and die in my place" as that is not at all what the bible says. That is church speak, religious tradition.
Jesus is the second/last Adam. He is born as per the promises in Gen3:15 and Deut18:18 and in all the prophets, as we see at his appearance described by John the Baptizer. "Behold the lamb OF God, that takes away the sin of the world..!" and this points out that we are separated by Adams act, from God, and that Jesus is the lamb of God, the lamb of blood covering for sin that will bring us back, its a collective solution by the father of the family, a family separated from him. A family doomed like those in Egypt at first passover, that God intervened and provided a covering for. It was the God offered choice for each Israelite and their friends.
Jesus does not need to be quantified by degree as placed against the accumulated sin of you , me and everyone else. Jesus is the lamb who is provided as covering against the penalty, death.
At first Passover the lamb is provided by father of each household, for the covering, signaled by sprinkled blood, of all who come under his door lintel, into his house, even neighbors and friends of other cultures. The blood is the covering.
Just so Jesus as Gods lamb is the provision of redemption for who ever comes under his shed blood, by faith. All who call upon the name of Jesus (means authority) will be saved. Just like all who came into the Passover house in egypt at that first Passover was saved.
Saved from what? From the death angel. Because the judgement was against Egypt and all in it. Those covered by the lambs blood were "passed over" by the death angel. Just so now, saved from the death angel who will cast the non believer into the cleansing fire. There will be a clean up!
The people had a choice back then, come under the blood, or ignore it. Just so now, all who hear the message, be they Jew or Gentile, can by believing (faith) come under the blood of Gods lamb. Its the father providing the lamb of covering, for His human family, to escape the final death, the judgement that will come. All who claim they are under the blood of Gods lamb will be spared. All that dont will lose what they have, at the second death.
Jesus died on a Passover, people tend to forget that. Jesus is called the lamb OF GOD. Its all for a reason. The lamb is Gods provision of salvation.
All who do come under the blood of Jesus, by faith in the promise, find they are "born anew" and as no no longer Jew nor Gentile, but are one new man (type) are a "new creation in christ" and as such are born again back into Gods family, as yet in promise, sealed by Gods spirit within as a confirmation, but wait awhile yet till we are called, when we will be raised as Jesus was, he being the "first up from the dead, first of many brothers (us) who are to be raised incorruptible," in glory with Jesus. A "NEW CREATION."
Thats it, we are called to be "sons of God" as was intended in the first place, except now we will be, in christ as he is, "so much higher than angels." This is the mystery that was hid in God. (actually a secret, as "mystery" has changed its meaning over time, where as a secret is something hid but once told is open to everyone.)
Its as simple as that.
God saves by provision.
Jesus saves by being the provision.
We save ourselves by obedience in accepting the provision by faith.
Forget all this nonsense about only by God dying could the whole weight of sin be atoned, thats not what God is doing. It was Adams disobedience. The last Adam, as perfectly formed in the woman as the first Adam was formed of the dust, has paid the blood price for that one transgression that led to the separation. As by one man came sin, and through sin death, so by the last man has come life abundant. Its all on track. Get saved? Just ask!
Hi Ken, The key for me in all of this is James 2 v 14. Faith without works is dead. I note you state 5 lines above "We save ourselves - by obedience...in accepting the provision by faith"? I do not believe "we save ourselves" I think I know what you mean but we are, as you say saved by God, and we need to respond in faith. A gift to those who accept it and believe. Yes that faith needs to be alive, producing good works, fruits etc but it is faith, in what has been done for us, that we are saved. Yes that faith should/must "lead to" obedience and good works, but it is not we who save by our obedience. Our faith should lead to obedience. In love mate. Perhaps I took what you wrote incorrectly.
@@glenfrazer753 The owner of a large factory looks out the window and sees a child fall into an old disued well outside his boundary fence.
He immediately sends the foreman outside the fence to help. The foreman throws a rope to the child.
The child is raised to safety. Saved.
Who saved the child?
Manager sends head representative. Manager saves.
Foreman uses rope. Foreman saves.
Rope allows child a means of salvation. Rope saves.
Child has to use considerable choice and work to hold to the rope to be saved. Child saves self through trust and obedience to rope offered, a free gift.
Ultimately manager is source of salvation. God
Foreman obediently goes. Jesus.
Rope is sufficient. Blood.
Child responds. Faith.
Thanks for the response Glen, and for the opportunity to clarify to the readers who are locked into single verse theology.
Good stuff
Bill, i would also comment on this issue of "good works prepared before..." an that is to consider that perhaps Paul is not talking about works done concerning salvation, either before, after or causitive, but they might be works yet to be done, future yet, by those called (us) to be sons of God, raised and glorified as he Jesus has been raised.
That being 1thes4:16 says the new creation believers, the church, will meet him in the air and always be with him.
He returns and rules an earthly kingdom for 1000 years. There is not only rebel angelic beings to defeat at his return, but a whole lot of restoration to be done, paradise regained, waiting. Remember all creation groans in travail (metaphor) waiting for the revealing of the sons of God (us called to be sons of God). Theres gonna be good work to do, personally i am looking forward to it.
If we are "always going to be with him" and he rules from Davids throne for 1000yrs, then thats gonna be head office for christians, to restore and set right what the canker worm has ruined.
just thinking out loud like.
And..... i.e. there is not an eternity living in heaven when you die, there never was that promise. That idea is traditional funeral "nice talk."
Good point at 51:00 about only works and only faith, I've often thought this is the meaning of Zec 13:8 "In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”
Also just thinking something is not a work, read Matthew 25.
I think there is something wrong with the standard simplified Calvinist form of PSA and Kevin did a good job showing that. But I don’t think he did a full enough job giving a positive vision for a different and better atonement theology.
consider the lamb of God then, under who's blood we are covered. The jewish passover was a foreshadow, the perfect passover happened, we are saved from the second death by calling on the authority of Jesus, his shed blood covers us by faith.
need any more?
As for calvinist simplified or complex, theres something wrong with it.
@ there is always more to be said about the crucifixion
They probably ran out of time or just kind of forgot, which happens when you're recording or streaming things live.
I was happy to find a discussion on substitutionary atonement, and I agree that it's not a true model. However, towards the end of the video I found it unsettling, hearing the ideas about remission of sins. And I think they were leaning heavily toward a works based salvation. Although Kevin did say he was trying to present a balanced approach, I don't think he did in this regard. We had a change in the understanding of the removal of sin, where instead of God removing it, we have to remove it ourselves. I know forgiveness was mentioned as well, but it certainly left me feeling that the onus was all on us to be righteous.
My view is that Jesus, in his death, overcame sin, and destroyed the flesh. Something only he could do, as a sinless man. He also took the law out of the way, nailing it to his cross, because it was against us. Again, something only he could do, because he perfectly fulfilled it, making it no longer necessary. The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and nobody is continually under a school teacher. There comes a time when we've been taught, the tuition comes to an end, and we go into the world of work.
So, Jesus died as a representative of the human race, and in so doing removed the enmity which is both in our flesh, and in the Law of Moses. And by taking those away, he made it possible for both Jew and Gentile to be brought near to God, thus making full forgiveness available to us. Because if we are near God, we are near the one who is by nature forgiving. Like with the prodigal son, as soon as the son came near his father, he benefited from unrestrained grace. Of course, he had to leave his old life behind, but that didn't take away the sins that had been committed. Only forgiveness could do that.
Here is my general canned response about us needing to stop sinning:
God expects YOU to STOP sinning!
"But now that YOU HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM SIN sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 ESV
“God, having raised up His servant Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.” Acts 3:26
“You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.” 1 John 3:5-7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses US from all sin." 1 John 1:7
“In Him we have redemption [liberation] through His blood, the forgiveness [aphesin/release] of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” Eph. 1:7
“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [liberation] through His blood, the forgiveness [aphesin, release] of sins.” Col. 1:13-14
“God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness [aphesin/release] of sins.” Acts 5:31
At Paul's conversion, Ananias told him, “Arise and be baptized, [you] and wash away your sins, calling on his name” Acts 22:16. Instead of having Jesus pay for his sin, Paul was told to wash his own sins away, which is to repent and commit to stop sinning, be baptized, and follow after the authority of Jesus.
“…To open their eyes to turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness [aphesin, release] of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” Acts 26:18
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age…Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem [liberate] us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” Titus 2
“To him who loves us and has FREED US FROM OUR SINS by his blood.” Rev. 1:5 (The blood covenant, properly understood, liberates us from bondage to sin. The blood is not a payment to God so He can forgive us or ignore our sin.)
“These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. THEY have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev. 7:14
“Blessed are those who WASH THEIR robes, SO THAT they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.” Rev. 22:14
"It was given to her to CLOTHE HERSELF in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Rev. 19:8
“Knowing that you were ransomed FROM the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.” 1 Peter 1:18-19 Notice that the “ransom” has to do with freeing, releasing, from sin, “from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers.” “Ransomed” here is used metaphorically. Yes, we were ransomed by the precious blood of Christ, but as a consequence of this, we were set free from bondage to sin.
“Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. [YOU] Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.” James 4:8
@kevingeorge1095 Thanks Kevin, I'm familiar with all those passages, and I like all of them. I agree with the point about stopping sinning, but I just wouldn't try to attach it to every passage that you have. For example, when Ananias told Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins, I would interpret that as directly linked to the immersion. That is, by connecting himself with Christ through baptism, his sins would now be forgiven, or washed away. Obviously he had to stop persecuting people, but that wouldn't take away the grave sins he'd already committed. Those had to be washed away through forgiveness. I think linking washing with baptism is a more straightforward interpretation, seeing as both have to do with water.
I agree, the blood is not a payment to God. Jesus said it was the blood of the New Covenant. And like the Old Covenant was sprinkled with blood to bring it into effect, so the new one was sprinkled with blood to make it effective. The old one was sprinkled with the blood of a dying animal, making it temporary, and the new one with the blood of someone who would be made immortal, making it permanent. Therefore the blood brings the covenant into force, and it's a covenant of forgiveness, according to the end of Hebrews 8, and 10:16-17. We then enter that covenant through faith and baptism, and receive the forgiveness it offers.
This would also connect with the ransoming you mentioned. Where the blood of the covenant was, in effect, a ransom payment to set us free. That is, only Jesus' blood was good enough to sprinkle the covenant. Like a ransom amount that only a certain one can pay because it's so high. Under that covenant we now benefit from being made free from our old life. That is, we are freed from the life of unbelief or being without God. And once freed from it we seek to live accordingly, trying to avoid sin.
Also, I appreciate that you're reacting against the passivity which the PSA model can encourage, which you mentioned at the end of the video. It just came across to me that you were swinging the pendulum too far the other way, with some of your interpretations. And I think we can already get a balanced view without having to redefine what remission of sins means.
Thanks for making an episode on this. It is one of my personal peeves. Every mainstream christian I hear says "Jesus died to pay your sin debt." That is nowhere in the bible. Payment of debt and forgiveness are mutually exclusive things. Mainstream christians equivocate those two terms even though it makes no sense. Like you two talk about, it also contradicts many passages of scripture. I have wanted to make a video myself about this topic, but never got around to it. I'm too lazy and would rather play videogames or watch TV in my free time.
Thanks!
Thanks, Bill. Looking forward to Kevin's DEBATE: Did Christ die in our place as a ransom for sins? December 16, 1 pm EST th-cam.com/video/xINTkIFPwrQ/w-d-xo.html
Looks good!
I agree wholeheartedly with this the only thing I disagree on is bringing up eternal conscience torment which is truly not biblical or in God's nature to do such a thing since he is a God of love and shall burn up his enemies with love. ECT limits the mercy of God and lengthens his anger when the scriptures clearly say his anger is for a short time and his mercy is forever just as our lives are for short time as a vapor here today and gone tomorrow. I idea of hell is a pagan concept that needs burned out of our minds and heart about God.
The reason I mentioned ECT is because it seems to me that usually people who promote a penal substitution concept also believe that God eternally, consciously torments humans.
@billschlegel1 I was hoping that was the reason and you didn't change your mind since I thought I seen in the past that you no longer believed in ECT. So glad to hear that brother ❤️
@@scottcatalanotto On that you heard right, I do not believe that God eternally, consciously torments people, disembodied or otherwise. The wages of sin is death. The wide road leads to destruction, not having an inheritance in the kingdom of God.
This discussion should motivate the listener to turn away from any belief system in which the Father and the Son are said to be two distinct persons, and to turn to the _unipersonal_ God - JESUS - who laid down his own life for us.
he who denies the father AND the son, are warned they are gonna be in trouble Euston.
@@ken440
1 JOHN 2:22 (KJV)
_Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son._
The verse opens with a rhetorical question concerning the denial of *a singular person:* "Jesus...the Christ". It would naturally follow then, that the _answer_ to the rhetorical question _also_ concerns the denial of *that same singular person:* "the Father and the Son".
------------------------------------
A son who is compelled by his personally distinct father to die an unimaginably horrifying death, _for whatever reason,_ is the son of an extremely _wicked_ father.
But a _Son_ who is compelled by _his own eternal self_ ("the Father") to die an unimaginably horrifying death, in order to deliver us from the consequences of sin, is the Son of an extremely _loving_ Father.......the Father whose _name_ is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*
JOHN 15:13 (KJV)
_Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life_ [not the life of some other person] _for his friends._
Jesus said that the God of Israel is the FATHER. As he said, "If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God".
The God of the Jews is Jesus' Father. And He is the one who honors Jesus, and he is the one who sent Jesus. That's definitely two persons: one who sends, and one who is sent. One who honors, and one who is honored. One of them is God, one of them is man. It's just that simple.
@jonorisin73 absolutely, you would wonder how they cant see it, but then it took me near 40 years to see it. Once seen cant unsee.
@@jonorisin73
The idea that the Father and the Son are two distinct persons is indeed a simple idea. And this simple idea results in a "Father" who is guilty of the abomination of child sacrifice because he commanded his personally distinct "Son" to die an incomprehensibly horrifying death on the cross. Very simple, and very evil.
-------------------
Here's the very simple *truth:*
1. God is a Spirit, a _unipersonal_ Spirit. (John 4:24)
2. God, the unipersonal Spirit, is love. (1 John 4:8,16)
3. The greatest demonstration of love is to lay down one's own life for others. (John 15:13)
4. So God, the unipersonal Spirit who is love, laid down his own life for us (1 John 3:16). He "came down from heaven" _without leaving heaven,_ and manifested _himself_ on earth in genuine human form ("God was manifest in the flesh" - 1 Tim.3:16), as _his own_ Son. He shed _his own_ blood on the cross, raised _himself_ from the dead, and now gives eternal life to all who believe on _him._ And _his_ name is revealed to be the name which is above _every_ name: *JESUS.*
Repent of the heresy of -Biblical- Unitarianism, and receive the revelation of the self-sacrificial love of the one _true_ God, the Lord JESUS Christ.
I can agree with many of the points brought up here however there seems to be many scriptures that DO point to penal substitution such as David's son dieing, and he would live by the sword, his daughter raped etc., as a result of his adultery and murder. That is just one example and there are many like it in scripture. So I'm still struggling with all this. It doesn't seem clear❤
Hi Bill, surprised we have not spoke yet about WHY Jerusalem exactly WEST of Mouth of Dead Sea. Re: Atonement -- I recommend Jim Dillingham (TH-cam) -- YHWH's Righteousness #8 in series ! Thomas
Thomas, why do you see this as significant?
@ken440 Bill, realizing YHWH uses East (Sin / Judgement) vs. West (Righteouness / Reward) enables us to have those eyes to see & ears to hear His preferred complexity of communication as a multitudinous expression of His truth in harmony. I believe YHWH intentionally hides His Glory for us to find. Another example: Jesus was on the cross for "6" hours, "6"00 hundred chosen chariots destroyed, Noah "6"00 years when flood began, Goliath's "6" components of his armour, man created "6"th day ... and this is why YHWH made Carbon #6 (dust) -- 6e6p6n. Lev.4:11 -- lists "6" rejected components. This same harmony works for #8 Oxygen (8e8p8n) -- Gematria of Jesus' "6" greek letters adds to 888. 6 greek letters projects Jesus "made sin" and "#8" projects Jesus knew no sin (perfect righteousness). Bill this is why King Uzziah died @ 68 -- Glory of YHWH manifested in Jesus.
@ken440 To understand His Complexity !
@ken440 Life is Westward /// Death is Eastward !!!
@tp644 so how far do you have to go west until you find yourself east? West for me is good fishing, while east is the pacific ocean.
You might find folk living in Asia might be insulted by your idea. Unless you live in Asia, or New Zealand like me, when east would be the evil USA.... so you might have something there.
Bill I want to mention the subject you brought up at about 46 minutes in.
That Peters sermon cut the jews to the heart, and he said "be baptized in the name of Jesus."
Now first i want to point out that in the NT we see a lot of mention of "the name of Jesus" and indeed most folk state this in prayers, because Jesus said "what ever you ask in my name..." and we read that he was raised and "given a name greater than all others"
Theres something important here, and folk are likely to want to shoot the messenger when i expand on it...
He was already called Yashua (Jesus) so whats with being given a name greater when he is raised??? because he is still Yashua , Jesus.
Think of the old movie, the hero chases the villian and shouts "stop in the name of the law!"
Its not the spelling, law, its the authority represented BY the law mentioned.
Now when Jesus was raised he was glorified, scripture says, "so much higher than angels" and there is the key to grasping this. The same name, Jesus, our lord, is glorified and given all power and authority. He has been given huge authority now, higher than the angels (he was lower than them when he walked into Jerusalem) its about authority given... !!
We are born anew, in christ. Into that authority, which is why we can also cast out unclean spirits. Because we are sealed in "the same spirit that raised christ from the dead."
So, here is where baptist folk are going to yell at me..... when Peter says Be baptized in the "name of Jesus," I dont see this as a comand to be water baptized while someone says "in the name of Jesus" instead of "in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost." That is all religion.
The greek word baptizo of how ever it is spelled, means to be immersed. You baptize a tea bag when ever you use one.
Peter, as I see it, is telling them they need to be filled with the spirit that Jesus has the authority to immerse us in. Be become "in christ" as John T Baptist said "I baptize with water, but one comes who will baptize in power of the spirit, and in fire. (the last one will be the unbelievers at second death.. in fire).
i.e. be immersed in the authority that Jesus introduces us to, the spirit of God within us.
Because Peter is answering these people about what has just happened, how come this miraculous spirit event has just happened in their hearing. Peter says "you can have this too!" i.e. get saved and the spirit of God will fill you, immerse you too.
Im a nondunkificationist.... ha ha ha. lol.
worth thinking seriously about for us who have bucked the religious system Bill.
blessings.
Kevin George and Carlos Xavier recently (Dec. 16, 2024) discussing/debating atonement: th-cam.com/video/xINTkIFPwrQ/w-d-xo.html
What you both are saying is that you are saved by works. It’s that simple.
There is no middle ground. If election is by grace it is no longer by works or grace is no longer grace. And off by works then it is not by grace, or work is no longer work. Paul
we are saved by works. that's what Jesus Christ taught.
The greater context of Romans 11:6 is about God favoring one people group over another people group for a given function or purpose. This is not a passage about personal salvation.
“1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite... 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel… 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election [of Israel] of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded…11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.” Rom. 11:1-11 summarized.
@@anotherheretic As I understand it, Jesus and Paul teach essentially the same thing (in relation to this specific topic, at least), once the distortion of Reformed Theology is set aside.
Jesus teaches…
“An hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have DONE GOOD to the resurrection of life, and those who have DONE EVIL to the resurrection of judgment.” John 5:28-29
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME, and cast out demons in your name, and DO many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you WORKERS of lawlessness.’” Mat. 7:21-23
Paul teaches…
“He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” Romans 2:6-13
“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get LEADS TO sanctification and ITS END, eternal life.” Romans 6:22
“If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Romans 8:13
“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.” Acts 26:19-20
“If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:18-21
Was substitution out of a need for justice? Or purely out of God's grace and mercy?
These are arguments without purpose.
God is one and all aspects we can see (justice, goodness, mercy, etc.) are simply revealed expressions of his perfect Being, which is truly indivisible.
Just as in the resurrection to come, our own being will be healed, and we will become integrated wholes.
What do you mean by "Was substitution...purely out of God's grace and mercy"?
@@billschlegel1 This type of splitting hairs is what the scholars discuss when defining categories of atonement doctrine.
At the core of the discussion is not really atonement itself, which is Biblically explicit, but differing ways of seeing God.
Jesus died on Passover. What was Passover about? The angel of death passing over a person who followed God’s instructions. I see nothing in Passover about sins or atonement. The importance of Jesus dying was showing that God can resurrect us. Power over death.
I find it strange you cant see the lamb provided, in Jesus.
All over scripture the "lamb of God" is promised.
Passover, the original passover, was indeed those folk being "passed over" in the event of the foretold judgement on the land of egypt.
Its all about avoidance of judgement.
All who had by faith (by believing the promise) come UNDER the sprinkled blood would be passed over. Avoiding the judgement.
The "lamb" was provided by the father of the household, and the blood covering was for as many as came under it in that house, no death judgement.
Now come forward to the present, we are Gods children lost to Him in figurative egypt, under many gods, none of them the creator God our true father.
We who are descended from the line of Adam are caught in Adams transgretion. We are all doomed to the judgement of death. The death angel will throw us into the lake of fire at judgement time for all.
However as J T Bapist saud "behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin..."
So here we see the lamb OF God, Jesus/Yeshua, (im not going to argue with anyone about cultural spelljng).
Jesus is the specially begotten son of God. A "last Adam." A spotless one of the flock (the rest of us) and he was killed on a passover, shedding his blood as a covering, so all who by faith believe in that , are covered by the blood. Are saved from judgement death in promise. The actual full salvation is not manifested until the final judgement, but we are sealed in Gods spirit as a witness, a promissory note you could say perhaps.
Jesus, Gods provided lamb, is first up from the dead, first of many brothers (the rest of us who call on the authority of his blood covering) who will (yet) be raised as he is raised. Then will we be truly saved.
So as passover lamb, he has saved us, by being Gods provision. We save ourselves by faith in Gods provision of that lamb of covering.
Thats why its important regarding passover.
We were caught in sin, so were sinful, regardless of your or my personal sins, (its got nothing to do with accumulation of individuals sins needing any particular amount or value of atonement) the sin of Adam, a blood debt, is paid by the obedience of the second/last Adam in following his Gods plan of provision of salvation.
We are all saved, if we simply accept what is offered in faith, we are covered by that blood.
If we reject it then we will pay the consequence at that final judgement, by being consumed in the fires of cleansing (gehenna fires).
@ it’s Passover, meaning death passing over those who had the blood on the doorposts. No sin or forgiveness mentioned.
Jesus is fulfilling all 7 feasts chronologically it seems. Atonement comes later in the chronology. Why are people conflating day of atonement with Passover? They have different purposes.
Regarding Passover...Sacrificing sheep was an insult to the Egyptians, and it had the potential of being stoned to death (Genesis 43:32, 46:34, Exodus 8:25-27). The Passover was also about God making a distinction between the firstborn sons of the heathen by sparing the Hebrew sons. All the plagues were to distinguish between the Hebrew people and their God versus the Egyptians and their gods. The Hebrew people removed themselves from the pagan world around them by posting the blood of a lamb above their doors, directly identifying which house was abominable to the Egyptians. We who are followers of Christ are also to be distinguished from the sinful world, and in that sense, the blood of Christ functions as our Passover lamb.
Furthermore, the Passover is when the Egyptians essentially expelled God's people - in fact, they were kind of paid to leave, the opposite of God paying a literal ransom. "The people of Israel had also done as Moses told them, for they had asked the Egyptians for silver and gold jewelry and for clothing. 36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. Thus they plundered the Egyptians." Ex. 12:35-36. Passover is when God's people were redeemed from Egypt. Psalm 74:2 “Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, which You have redeemed to be the tribe of Your inheritance; and this Mount Zion, where You have dwelt.” (Psalm 74:2) Most people are taught that to redeem is primarily about making a payment, but to redeem in the biblical sense is primarily to set something free. God did not pay the Egyptians anything when Israel was set free from Egypt. The Passover was not about a payment for sin, it was a sign of loyalty to God in the face of potential death, leading to victory over being enslaved. Today, Jesus is our Passover. "Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed." 1 Cor. 5:7 1 Cor. 5:7 links the Passover to cleansing from sin. In the way that leaven is to be removed to have a new lump, and as a parallel to Israel's removal from Egypt, so too must sin be removed.
"But now that you have been SET FREE from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get LEADS to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 ESV
Wasn’t blood used for sealing a covenant and not only for sin?
I’m just saying the typology of Passover doesn’t equate to people combining Passover and atonement into one event.
Kevin mistranslates Rom 4:25 as: “Jesus was delivered through our sins."
This is not only meaningless in English but in any other language, like my native Spanish!
But more than that, this is grammatically wrong because Paul uses the Greek preposition DIA plus or with an accusative noun (sins/trespasses) hence DIA is invariably translated as "because of" or simply "for" and never as "through." That’s why no translation supports his reading! For more see th-cam.com/video/Xr_SvITWK30/w-d-xo.html
Actually Abraham accounted it to GOD as righteousness, not the other way around th-cam.com/video/bBoVJtyzEW0/w-d-xo.html at 22:40 and th-cam.com/video/FO66vuxau8Q/w-d-xo.html at 32:00
as useal if people just listen to god rather than to each other, than we have an answer.
what did yeshua said about his crucifixion.
he said the same thing almost every time. Matthew 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-32, Luke 9:21-22, Mark 8:31, Matthew 17:22-23, Mark 9:30-32, Luke 9:43-45, Matthew 20:17-19, Mark 10:32-34, Luke 18:31-34
in other words something like "i must suffer and be killed by men, jews and gentile, by decision of the religious leaders of gods people. and then resurrect after 3 days".
there is one time he say matthew 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
so he had to suffer what he did. expose the wickedness humanity including organised religion, but also to show they have only temporary power. because god can resurrect.
and also but not the main reason to to pay some price for sins of those that would be saved by him.
All your obvious confusion will be answered if you answer these questions truthfully. I don’t think you can do it, so it’s gonna have to be the Holy Spirit. Blessings.
Has anyone ever tested Paul to see if he is an approved Apostle? It seems everyone is relying on his epistles being in the canon since the mid 300’s. Can there be a 13th apostle who never was taught by Jesus, didn’t learn anything from the 12 apostles hand picked by Jesus, brings a MYSTERY gospel that was not spoken of by Jesus on earth? Matt 19:23, Rev 21:14, Gal 1:12,16, Gal 2:6-9, Acts 22:18
We are required to test doctrines, teachers, prophets, or spirits. Deuteronomy 13 is called the Punishment of Apostates passage. Does God test us with false prophets? How do we show we love God in Deut 13? Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits - 1 John 4:1
The Bereans were more noble.. Searching the scriptures whether those things were so (right after Paul arrives) - Acts 17:11 All Asia turned against Paul. Ephesians rejected Paul. Rev 2:2 Jesus commends Ephesus for rejecting a false apostle and found them liars.
Jesus could not contradict the Old Testament. Any teacher after Jesus must be consistent with Jesus. They must also not contradict themselves. John 5:46-47 Matt 5:17
1 John 4:2-3 antichrist denies that Jesus came in the flesh. 1 John 2:18-22 antichrist denies the father and the son (deny can mean contradict). Paul says “in the appearance of a man”.
There must be two or three witnesses to a matter. Can Paul be his only witness? Deut 19:15
In Matthew 24 Jesus says do not be deceived. Do not believe the one who says they meet Jesus in the wilderness (road to Damascus?) or in an inner room (jail cell?).
All eyes will see Jesus when he returns. Can Jesus pop in and out visiting any person in private? Matt 24 - as lightning goes from east to west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man.
What does being a wolf in sheep’s clothing mean? It means that someone can speak sheep words (truth) but also speak as a wolf (lies). We have to discern if someone is a wolf by looking for their words that contradict Jesus. Beware of RAVENING wolves - Matthew 7. Benjamin is a RAVENING wolf - Gen 49. Who is from the tribe of Benjamin? Benjamin kills in the morning and divides the spoils in the evening. Who murdered Christians at first, then converts but never joins with the Jerusalem church and starts his own churches?
The Bible says the 12 apostles are the foundations but Paul says he builds on no one else’s foundation.
Should a teacher like Paul quote Jesus a lot? Should we be wary of someone who is a Pharisee? Beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod Mark 8:15; Matt 6:6,12. Who was of the family of Herod? The leaven of the Pharisees is hypocrisy (deceit, acting: Jew to the Jew, Greek to the Greeks). Who claimed he used deceit to spread HIS gospel? 2 Cor 12:16
What are the qualifications of an apostle in the one example we have? Acts 1:21-22: been with the apostles from John’s baptism until the ascension. At Peter’s denial he was asked three questions: 1) were you with Jesus? 2)were you with his disciples? 3) are you a Gaililean? How would Paul answer those?
Can someone who says they have a demon of Satan in them also have the Holy Spirit?
Do you know that Luther and Carlstadt turned against Paul and faith alone? Right after Jesus’s ascension a group called the poor, Ebionites, rejected Paul. Every so often from then on people and scholars have found some odd things about Paul where he contradicts Jesus.
Deuteronomy 18 speaks of a prophet like Moses whom God will speak through. This is Jesus.
In Numbers 12 Aaron and Miriam challenge Moses’s authority because they had dreams and visions. God says those are inferior to him speaking face to face with Moses. God speaks through Jesus. I would say that is the highest form of communication. Who is this self proclaimed Apostle who says he has a vision, goes to the 3rd heaven but can’t tell us the unutterable words he may or may not have heard???
Faith then Works / Knowledge then Love / Bread then Wine -- Hierarchy is YHWH policy ! Altar of BURNT OFFERING -- Jesus is our Representative -- eat Flesh drink blood ! Thomas
Not a very clear explanation of penal substitutionary atonement. Jesus took the "Judgement" for our sins which is physical "death". Jesus was the divinely conceived Son of God and a perfect human being who never sinned and overcame temptation and sin. He was the 'spotless' Lamb of God and God raised him from "death" because technically he was 'not guilty' and therefore 'death' ( the sentence of death) could not hold him. Because Christ rose from the dead we who put our faith in him will rise too to eternal life. ALL MEN DIE is a FACT of LIFE. DEATH is the CONSEQUENCE of Sin. Jesus TOOK the CURSE OF THE LAW which is DEATH for us. Bringing forth the fruit of Salvation shows the evidence of our salvation.
If Jesus took our judgement of physical death, why do we still die? And why will people die when Jesus returns?
Doesn’t sound like he took a punishment if we are still receiving the punishment of death 🤷🏼♂️
@@davidbrachetto1420Gen 2:17 ISV but you are not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because you will certainly die during the day that you eat from it.”
Adam died that DAY if not God lied
That day Adam was taken out of the garden the garden represents a temple, dwelling place of God sin seperated Adam from dwelling with God its spiritual as God is Spirit
Luk 15:24 ISV Because my son was dead and has come back to life. He was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.
The father see the son AS DEAD! but it was not physical it was a separation from his presence
Eze 37:9 ISV Then he ordered me, “Prophesy to the Spirit, Son of Man. Tell the Spirit, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: “Come from the four winds, you Spirit, and breathe into these people who have been killed, so they will live.”’”
When does the Spirit come into these dead people?
Act 2:3-4 ISV 3 They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated, and one rested on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign languages as the Spirit gave them that ability.
Born again 🎉🎉🎉
Well, death with no chance of an afterlife is different than death with hope of being included in the 1st resurrection of the dead
@robertrecchia2642 Luk 21:20-22 ISV 20 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then understand that its devastation is approaching. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, those inside the city must leave it, and those in the countryside must not go into it, 22 because these are the days of vengeance when all that is written will be fulfilled.
Everything was fulfilled 2000years ago
Dan 12:1-2 ISV 1 “‘At that time, Michael will arise, the great prince who will stand up on behalf of your people, and a time of trouble will come like there has never been since nations began until that time. Also at that time, your people will be delivered-everyone who will have been written in the book. 2 Many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken-some to life everlasting, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The wedding feast and the marriage has taken place, the great tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem finished,
Rev 20:13 ISV The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their actions.
The great white throne judgement Finished
We are in the new heavens and earth, that represents the new covenant people that are in christ who have been born again SPIRITUALLY who have eternal life who will never die
Penal substitution seems like a distortion
I agree.