Great presentation! With Aptera’s efficiency advantage over other EV’s we can almost exclusively take advantage of “slow” charging and avoid high energy fast charging. With advances in battery technology it will be interesting to see if Aptera might change to a different battery over time ie. In 2024 or 2025.
I like your content. Even though this was different from typical content, it was entertaining to me at least. It may be hard for some to see how this directly relates to the consumer. As a side note, I noticed my Samsung now has a battery saving option to stop charging at 85% to lengthen the life of my phone. I have been using for a week. I have plenty of access to charging my phone around, but I can always change the settings to charge to 100% if I'm away from power sources for awhile. Back on Aptera topic on battery degradation. Having solar as an on board trickle charge can be very helpful for battery life and for preventing vampire drain when energy is needed for battery conditioning. At least on a sunny day 😆
You forgot to summarize the tips to avoid the problems you mentioned. #1 try to maintain the battery around 50% SoC as that keeps most of the lithium ion in equilibrium in the electrolyte away from the electrodes where they can cause the bad chemical reactions you discussed. For the same reason avoid high or extremely low state of charge especially state of charge over 90% is that maintains a large amount of concentration of lithium ions in the highly reactive anode. #2 avoid high temperatures with or without charging as temperature drives many of these bad chemical reactions. Avoid charging at extreme low temperature, but a battery is happy to be maintained at low temperature if not charging. If possible, keep the vehicle plugged in as that allows the battery thermal management system to maintain the battery at optimal temperature. #3 maintain low depth of discharge (dod) it is better to have frequent shallow, discharges, rather than a infrequent large one. As in keeping the battery from 40 to 60% is better than 20 to 80% not only to keep lithium ions from the electrodes but also high depth of discharge, increases and decreases the volume of the electrodes significantly, which speeds up cracking of the electrodes. 10 to 20% depth of discharge results in very little volume expansion and is ideal.
GREAT summary. These are the high points that everyone needs to know! One minor caveat though is to keep the upper end of that range below 55% because lifespan starts falling off a cliff over 60%. For LFP batteries, up to 60% is still optimal. Their calendar degradation doesn't start increasing majorly until 65%. I know 5% sounds petty, but in the graphs I saw that little 5% made a significant difference. Really, you could focus on the long-term weighted average of state or charge (SoC). Keeping that under 50% increases lifespan. Lastly, point #4 is that it's optimal to use about a roughly around 10kW charger, known as level 2 home charging. Level 1 home charging surprisingly decreases lifespan slightly. Level 3 or 4 charging decreases lifespan significantly.
Excellent information, However with proper battery management avoiding the cycling conditions described, the main problem is time at temperature, normal usage would be about one cycle per day. So in ten years it would experience 3,650 cycles, well within properly managed lifetimes. But if left in conditions where the temp can excide 100 Degrees, F, especially at near full charge the deration is accelerated. In short, a properly managed Li-Ion battery should last at least 10 years. Another variable is what you consider end of life, with lead acid batteries they degrade very quickly once their capacity is less than 80% of spec. so that has become the standard for most battery end of life calculations, however with Li-Ion the deration is fairly steady down to 60%, so the useful life may be as long as 20 years with proper management.
Fairly good although need to talk more about importance of Solid Electrolyte Interface (SEI layer). It helps keep electrons from escaping graphite during charging that degrades electrolyte. SEI graphite protective shell requires constant repairs from SoC cycling of graphite expansion/contraction that eats up small amount of electrolyte and free lithium gradually degrading Li-Ion battery. Cathode types make a difference in wear out mode. Nickel base cathode Li-Ion batteries are lifetime limited by their cathode longevity (cracking). LFP cathode is very rugged pushing longevity dominating factor from cathode to graphite anode. Difference is hundreds of cycles for nickel-based cathode to thousands of cycles for LFP cathode. Silicon doping of graphite increases capacity of anode but they can absorb so many lithium-ions they crack apart. Very fine silicon dust doping and small amounts reduce the degradation in capacity storage rate of the silicon.
I saw a great video by Micah from electek on his ebike channel that also spoke of ways that batteries degrade. He highly recommended only charging to around 85% to improve battery life significantly. I know my tablet has a function that only allows it to charge to 85% to extend battery longevity if one so chooses.
most EV batteries are built with overhead of battery so you can't charge to actual 100%. That's the difference between actual battery capacity and usable battery capacity in an EV. So when your EV says 100% charge, it's probably only about 90% of actual capacity. In phones, tables, ebikes, and computer, they don't build in this buffer.
@@ApteraOwnersClub that makes sense. With most devices they are trying to get the maximum daily use. With EV batteries, which are thousands to replace, they need to take better care. I'm sure though that there is a tendency to maximize charge level so one can state the maximum mileage range. But then they don't want a reputation for having batteries with poor longevity.
Very much glad to see the paper you are discussing here. By God's grace one of the co-authors of this paper Dr. Abir Ghosh is the supervisor of my project work.
This is where I tend to get a little bent on the why not LFP batteries. Although I do not own a BEV, I have read that some owners manuals recommend maintaining the battery charge between 20-90% while some say 20-80% unless you are driving long distances whereas these cycles do accelerate the degradation of the battery. This is considered acceptable. I ordered the 600 mile Aptera for this reason. If I am conservative and maintain and use the vehicle between 20-80%, that gives me an effective range of 360 miles. Compare that to a 400 mile LFP pack that is usable from 0-100% with no appreciable degradation, at the end of the day, I would be better off with a 400 mile LFP pack with the upside of nearly triple the battery life. I understand the argument of energy density. I just have a hard time buying in to the bigger picture with Aptera being all about efficiency and being green while using anything other than an LFP, not even going in to the cost difference. Great topic Steve Again!
I think LFP is the better chemistry for the reason you pointed out and for several other reasons like environmental costs, financial considerations, ease of mineral availability, etc It looks like Aptera is going to move towards LFP in the future based on their agreement with Formosa AdvEnergy
Thanks for reading the research for us - and explaining it so clearly too. For home charging my devices with lithium-ion batteries, I'd use a battery limiter. I have a Chargie app and I can limit power charging to 75% or 80% - even if I forget to get my phone off the charger overnight - which I usually do, haha. Have you ever experienced using battery limiters or power limiters?
50% state of charge (SoC) maximizes lifespan. Lifespan starts decline significantly the longer your batter stays charged 60% or more according to research studies.
It will be curious to see how / if Aptera manages the battery. Will it precondition like a Tesla on the way to a fast charger? Can you precondition manually? The battery is liquid cooled, is it not? I sure hope so. One thing I like about the solar is that it’s constantly trickle charging the battery. So, the less I have to plug it in the better. Is that correct or am I mistaken? So many questions.
i sure hope aptera liquid cools the battery, the chance of thermal run away increases with out it. especially since those of us that load this with solar panels leaving it out in the sun all day every day. i might pass if it has no active cooling for the batteries, and they are using nmc as well. lfp can probably handle the load with out fire, but nmc is going to become a fireball with out proper management.
There is liquid cooling, however instead of running the coolant through a radiator with a fan, the coolant will run through channels in the skin on the bottom of the car in front of the rear wheel, and it will use the skin as a heat sink, or radiator. Additionally, with the efficiency and less power needed to run, plus the lower charging speed, there should not be as much heat produced. If you live in a sunny place like San Diego, you should expect 40 miles of solar charging if you get all the solar options. Me living in the PNW and having my driveway on the NE side of my house will probably expect a lot less solar charging, but when I am in Florida, maybe I won't be so worried about plugging it in every day on trips
@@ApteraOwnersClub Do you think Aptera will be sell in Canada ? If so what are your expectations in snow conditions (handling, cabin heating, etc...) ?
They intend to sell in Canada for sure. I think it will do well in snow as long as it's plowed and that heating will be really good because the cabin is small and composites insulate much better than metal.
So... What is the optimal process for home charging when in a cold climate? Would it be ideal for the vehicle to use the connected Level 2 charger to heat up the battery before it begins charging? Then, you leave it plugged in so that things remain warm? Now, you drive to work and it's parked outside on a really cold day. Does operating it cause the same issues?
Yes, you want it to warm the battery up before charging it. You also want it warm when driving so that regen works. The main issue that I know of on draining a cold battery is reduced capacity.
@@nullpointer782 That's what I thought. Strange, if this is such a significant part of the whole longevity part, why don't most vehicles have a "conditioning" component to the charging process? I do see it on some, but it's more a rarity than I would have thought given the benefit. If my route planner is taking me to a charging station for this trip, should the vehicle not strive to arrive with the battery at the ideal condition to accept that charge? If I'm connecting at home, should there not be a setting to have the vehicle wait to charge until the battery is heated/cooled to the ideal? Should the vehicle not prepare itself for driving on a schedule? I mean most people work set hours and it isn't that hard to program something like "if home and plugged in, be ready to go at 7am mon-fri". "If at work, be ready to go at 5pm". Sure, there are exceptions, but those kind of regular drive cycles should be fairly standard. Seems there is a lot more software that can come into play to optimize the most expensive part of the vehicle to replace.
Arriving at a supercharger with the battery preconditioned is a feature that Tesla added a while back. Active temperature management has both performance and longevity benefits. You see the extremes in the Nissan Leaf with no thermal management and horrible longevity, to Tesla with great thermal and legendary longevity.
General rules of thumb for longest battery life with these. Try to control temperatures. Park in the shade, in covered parking, try to avoid too much heat or too much cold. Climate controlled environments are best for when not in use. Only charge up to 80% of the battery capacity. Try not to drain below 20% of the batteries capacity. Do not rapid charge your battery. Slow Level 1 charging is going to be the most gentle on the batteries life. I really wish that they taught people this about EV's, but sadly most people somehow think that these batteries don't degrade and will just last forever. I have heard stuff like that come out of some very well known people in the EV community that have large audiences right here on TH-cam say things like that. It is flat out just wrong. Even the manufacturers warranty for EV's will tell you that normal degradation is 2-3% per year if well taken care of and that DC fast charging will accelerate that degradation. They state that because they say that is normal wear and tear and does not qualify for warranty repair or replacement if it falls within those parameters. If well taken care of these things can last a long time, but if abused and rapid charged frequently degradation will be a fact of life. As we have seen recently with the skyrocketing costs of everything do not assume the replacement batteries are going to be abundant or cheaper in the future. It may not be the case.
Good day. Please help, my 200ah 5kwh 24v Lithium-ion battery's BMS shuts down too often during discharge. It charged normal and allows bypass from grid (through the inverter). But anytime there's no grid and it's discharging to supply load, the BMS shuts down after about an hour (average). What can cause this? I've done several troubleshooting, changed inverters to different products and also moved the battery to a separate house, all the same. Kindly help
Interesting theoretical explanation, but there are plenty of papers out there that are based on measured performance (usually of Tesla Model 3 since they have the most experience) that show far lees damage from supercharging. In addition, there are failure modes from manufacturing problems that matter, often much more than the time/charge/discharge causes. Those are what cause early failures, so-called birth defects. The whole story is hugely complex and telling just part may not be the best use of our limited ability to worry about things. Worry less.
Most important is a decent BMS system. The Tesla BMS system is very good at keeping cell drift at a minimum. Some batteries even accept a couple 100mV of drift between cell(segments) which is destructive in the long term. Also, while supercharging, Tesla's system of cooling is fantastic. Its basically a 'mat' in between most cells. For instance, VAG group (Volkswagen i.e.) only cools bottom of the pack, so there will be high dT (delta T) in the pack, which is also horrible for Li-Ion batteries. I'm not a Tesla fan, dont get me wrong, I hate how they try to ban out 3rd party repairs, but their BMS and cooling system is far superior to what any other manufacturer brings today. The Ioniq 5 has BIIIIG temperature differences in the pack while fast charging as well. Doesnt matter short term, gives HUGE degradation in the long run...
Would a LiFePO4 battery that is charged to say.. 3.2V, and left on its own until it reaches 2.9V by self-discharge, and then slowly charged back up to 3.2, repeat ad nauseam. Could this battery last more than 10 years?
Nice only missing a pressure safety release, even better something like what they put on water heaters a chamber for higher temp liquid contractions and expansion. Besides safety pressure relief valve, Because liquid does not compress.
I can hardly wait to go into the snooty Aptera dealer (show room where I ordered my Model 3 in JAX FL) and put the salesman on the defensive with my new knowledge of how a Lithium battery works.
i think preheating is mainly for colder climates that we have here in Canada like -30s. Also I hope Aptera gives us details videos on changing the tires because we have to alternate between summer and winter tires every 6 months.
@@Soothsayer210 If you're asking about the front tires/wheels, Steve posted a video awhile back about that. It's not much different than a regular car. They haven't released anything about the rear wheel yet TMK.
@@Soothsayer210 Yeah, I said there's nothing about the rear wheel. Aptera said that the wheel pants will be easy to remove with just a few common tools.
@@tims8603 i would have liked to have a complete video in one place instead of multiple places because we (here in Canada) change ALL the wheels twice in a year according to the seasons.
I'm back, and I'm only 2.81% more grumpy. 🤭 The only problem with lithium batteries is... everything. Portable power needs to be cheap, robust, long-lived, readily recyclable, and not dependent on sophisticated charging, monitoring and temperature management systems. Without any one of those things, such batteries - in this case the ones powering EVs - will remain the preserve of an affluent minority that wants them rather than the majority that actually needs them. Lithium technology will certainly power Muskmobiles to the satisfaction of their differently poor owners, but that's of no interest to 95% of the planet's population. And this IS all about saving the planet, isn't it? Remember the planet? Big round thing covered in humans and garbage? I thought that ditching fossil fuels was all about sustainability, renewable energy, and doing the maximum amount of good to help the greatest number of people, yadda, yadda, yadda, not just placating a strutting, preening, uncaring, First World elite. Scrape away the hype and the various rechargeable lithium formulae are no better than any of their unsatisfactory predecessors - lead-acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel metal hydride, magic beans, whatever. Lithium's replaced them by shouting the loudest and wooing the wealthy. I'm not impressed. I run my camera and flash units (I'm into macro photography) on Ni-MH batteries, which I think are superior to the lithium alternatives. I've been using the same set of Eneloop rechargeables for almost ten years. They're excellent. According to the charger's readout and my own empirical findings they're as good today as the day I bought them. They're more resilient and less sensitive to the vagaries of over-charging, over-discharging, and just sitting around than lithium cells. I use them in my RC model aircraft equipment, too. In comparison, the LiPo (lithium polymer) packs that most modellers use to power the flight motors are fragile, temperamental, unacceptably short-lived and hideously expensive. Lithium-ion, lithium polymer... Meh. I expect rechargeable batteries to last without the services of their own intensive care unit. "Ooh," people say, "but look at lithium's energy density!" Nuts to its energy density. I prefer to compromise on performance and look at its cost. EV manufacturers are desperate to flog their plush products to the right class of people so they emphasise battery efficiency in terms of range. It's an unhealthy obsession. I'm not an engineer, but I bet it'd be possible to make an ordinary EV with fair range and acceptable performance without lithium cells. Sure, it wouldn't be the fastest or go the farthest or look the coolest on paper, but I'm sure it'd be the cheapest. And how much performance do you really need? I emphasise the word 'need'. You could probably even make a workable lead-acid battery powered EV. After all, they were building them 100 years ago. What happened? Ah, well, they were seen as women's cars (ewwww!) so the petroleum industry phased them out in favour of more manly vehicles. Sigh. I suspect that a lot of people without size, performance or status issues would be perfectly happy with an EV having a range of 150 miles and a top speed of 60 mph. Small battery = lighter car = reasonable performance. Smaller battery also = more frequent stops to recharge, BUT the recharging would take less time, so... Why not? Why aren't there more slow, cheap, small, simple EVs with batteries that don't degrade if you stare at them? Because the motor industry needs people to fall in love with lithium. Nothing succeeds like excess. More is better; greed is good. Good for business. Welcome to the 1950s. And there you have it: lithium is all about cash, not efficiency. That's what cripples the technology. That's why I say it's garbage. It's too fragile, too dependent on external management. Outside the EV world you can indeed buy budget/economy lithium batteries, but they won't last beyond a year. That's ludicrous. I can make a pair of tights last longer than that. Alas, lithium batteries have become the darlings of the more mental environmental groups and are a convenient prop for governments eager to be seen to be embracing a renewable future. One of the few [in my opinion] positive points of the Aptera is that it's supposedly capable of providing adequate performance with a smallish battery. That's good. Unless you're regularly crossing continents, small, light batteries make more sense than carrying round a ton of excess baggage. The thing about a petrol or diesel tank is that it gets lighter as it empties. Yay. EV owners fret about saving weight and have hissy fits over the aerodynamics of door mirrors and specify expensive lightweight materials whilst remaining oblivious to the huge millstone of a battery under their feet/seat dragging them to the bottom of the efficiency curve. Chauffeuring an unproductive 1,000+lbs of battery 180 miles with 50% charge and only a driver on board is probably the last word in "Look-at-me!" motoring. The burden of dead weight is likely to be what makes electric-powered medium- and long-haul airliners impractical. When literally every extra gram has to be paid for in fuel, no airline will want to fly an 18 ton battery around the world when 9 tons of it is just along for the ride. Nine tons represents an awful lot of unpaying passengers. If carrying excess battery weight is bad for cars, don't forget that airlines even use reduced-weight plastic cutlery; some have forks with 3 tines instead of 4 because the tiny weight saving makes a measurable difference in fuel costs over a plane's working life of 45+ million miles. That's what I call caring about efficiency. You'll have noticed that I'm not a fan of lithium battery tech; it'll continue to attract my scorn until it's rendered obsolete by the discovery of Chemical X (gratuitous Powerpuff Girls reference).
Can’t believe that this guy wrote a comment long as a book! I did not read it through because the beginning was quite BS, please someone correct me if I missed something.😅
Complete rubbish, mines brilliant and yes cuts my costs in fuel by £2000 a year so is cheaper than an ice car as long as I own it for 7 years plus . I feel this guy is a very jealous person or a bit like rain man.
I think you misunderstand the goals of this channel. The goal isn't to build excitement or be a cheerleader. The goal is the educate and entertain people on topics relevant to Aptera. I am obviously one of the biggest fans of Aptera being both a reservation holder and investor and having a youtube channel about it but I'm not here to try to make it sound like batteries will last forever, solar is the answer to everything, EVs don't cause any environmental damage, the company is doing great financially and will absolutely be the most successful company ever, everything is roses are amazing. We're going to present relevant information as we find it and speculate on the implication of it if that is also relevant. If you want just cheerleading, there are several channels that do that. If you want just Fear Uncertainty and Dismay, there's a certain Australian guy who's also got you covered.
@Robert Kirchner lol I know what you mean but Australians are awesome. I love them and country is beautiful and other than driving on the wrong side of the road the vacation down there was amazing. I wouldn't let one person dim your view of an entire continent :)
@@ApteraOwnersClub well said, Steve. That’s why I subscribe to this channel for Aptera info and no where else. I’ve never been an early adopter. I’ve certainly never owned a vehicle that wasn’t by a legacy manufacturer. This will be the first. I am fine with things not being perfect AS LONG AS I KNOW going in. I’m will to buy eyes wide open. There will be unexpected challenges along the way. But this is a channel where we can be enthusiastic while also being truthful and realistic.
@@robertkirchner7981 might be because they have head down and feet up 🤣 Now seriously, "du choc des idées jaillit la lumière" which can be translated as "from the clash of ideas springs light"
Terrific explanation, Steve. Your advice in re: charging is apt. I hope you will also do a solar PV cell degradation explanation someday.
Quality Silicon PV cells degrade rather slowly. PV panels, on the other hand, can lose on the order of 20% by the 25 year mark.
Great presentation! With Aptera’s efficiency advantage over other EV’s we can almost exclusively take advantage of “slow” charging and avoid high energy fast charging. With advances in battery technology it will be interesting to see if Aptera might change to a different battery over time ie. In 2024 or 2025.
Really nice explanation of how these batteries work. Thank you.
I like your content. Even though this was different from typical content, it was entertaining to me at least. It may be hard for some to see how this directly relates to the consumer.
As a side note, I noticed my Samsung now has a battery saving option to stop charging at 85% to lengthen the life of my phone. I have been using for a week. I have plenty of access to charging my phone around, but I can always change the settings to charge to 100% if I'm away from power sources for awhile.
Back on Aptera topic on battery degradation. Having solar as an on board trickle charge can be very helpful for battery life and for preventing vampire drain when energy is needed for battery conditioning. At least on a sunny day 😆
Thank you, Steve. I’ll have to watch that a few times.
You forgot to summarize the tips to avoid the problems you mentioned.
#1 try to maintain the battery around 50% SoC as that keeps most of the lithium ion in equilibrium in the electrolyte away from the electrodes where they can cause the bad chemical reactions you discussed. For the same reason avoid high or extremely low state of charge especially state of charge over 90% is that maintains a large amount of concentration of lithium ions in the highly reactive anode.
#2 avoid high temperatures with or without charging as temperature drives many of these bad chemical reactions. Avoid charging at extreme low temperature, but a battery is happy to be maintained at low temperature if not charging. If possible, keep the vehicle plugged in as that allows the battery thermal management system to maintain the battery at optimal temperature.
#3 maintain low depth of discharge (dod) it is better to have frequent shallow, discharges, rather than a infrequent large one. As in keeping the battery from 40 to 60% is better than 20 to 80% not only to keep lithium ions from the electrodes but also high depth of discharge, increases and decreases the volume of the electrodes significantly, which speeds up cracking of the electrodes. 10 to 20% depth of discharge results in very little volume expansion and is ideal.
GREAT summary. These are the high points that everyone needs to know!
One minor caveat though is to keep the upper end of that range below 55% because lifespan starts falling off a cliff over 60%. For LFP batteries, up to 60% is still optimal. Their calendar degradation doesn't start increasing majorly until 65%. I know 5% sounds petty, but in the graphs I saw that little 5% made a significant difference.
Really, you could focus on the long-term weighted average of state or charge (SoC). Keeping that under 50% increases lifespan.
Lastly, point #4 is that it's optimal to use about a roughly around 10kW charger, known as level 2 home charging. Level 1 home charging surprisingly decreases lifespan slightly. Level 3 or 4 charging decreases lifespan significantly.
Excellent information, However with proper battery management avoiding the cycling conditions described, the main problem is time at temperature, normal usage would be about one cycle per day. So in ten years it would experience 3,650 cycles, well within properly managed lifetimes. But if left in conditions where the temp can excide 100 Degrees, F, especially at near full charge the deration is accelerated. In short, a properly managed Li-Ion battery should last at least 10 years.
Another variable is what you consider end of life, with lead acid batteries they degrade very quickly once their capacity is less than 80% of spec. so that has become the standard for most battery end of life calculations, however with Li-Ion the deration is fairly steady down to 60%, so the useful life may be as long as 20 years with proper management.
Nice video! Short, sweet, and very informative.
Fairly good although need to talk more about importance of Solid Electrolyte Interface (SEI layer). It helps keep electrons from escaping graphite during charging that degrades electrolyte. SEI graphite protective shell requires constant repairs from SoC cycling of graphite expansion/contraction that eats up small amount of electrolyte and free lithium gradually degrading Li-Ion battery.
Cathode types make a difference in wear out mode. Nickel base cathode Li-Ion batteries are lifetime limited by their cathode longevity (cracking). LFP cathode is very rugged pushing longevity dominating factor from cathode to graphite anode. Difference is hundreds of cycles for nickel-based cathode to thousands of cycles for LFP cathode.
Silicon doping of graphite increases capacity of anode but they can absorb so many lithium-ions they crack apart. Very fine silicon dust doping and small amounts reduce the degradation in capacity storage rate of the silicon.
I saw a great video by Micah from electek on his ebike channel that also spoke of ways that batteries degrade. He highly recommended only charging to around 85% to improve battery life significantly. I know my tablet has a function that only allows it to charge to 85% to extend battery longevity if one so chooses.
most EV batteries are built with overhead of battery so you can't charge to actual 100%. That's the difference between actual battery capacity and usable battery capacity in an EV. So when your EV says 100% charge, it's probably only about 90% of actual capacity. In phones, tables, ebikes, and computer, they don't build in this buffer.
@@ApteraOwnersClub that makes sense. With most devices they are trying to get the maximum daily use. With EV batteries, which are thousands to replace, they need to take better care. I'm sure though that there is a tendency to maximize charge level so one can state the maximum mileage range. But then they don't want a reputation for having batteries with poor longevity.
Very much glad to see the paper you are discussing here. By God's grace one of the co-authors of this paper Dr. Abir Ghosh is the supervisor of my project work.
This is where I tend to get a little bent on the why not LFP batteries. Although I do not own a BEV, I have read that some owners manuals recommend maintaining the battery charge between 20-90% while some say 20-80% unless you are driving long distances whereas these cycles do accelerate the degradation of the battery. This is considered acceptable.
I ordered the 600 mile Aptera for this reason. If I am conservative and maintain and use the vehicle between 20-80%, that gives me an effective range of 360 miles. Compare that to a 400 mile LFP pack that is usable from 0-100% with no appreciable degradation, at the end of the day, I would be better off with a 400 mile LFP pack with the upside of nearly triple the battery life. I understand the argument of energy density. I just have a hard time buying in to the bigger picture with Aptera being all about efficiency and being green while using anything other than an LFP, not even going in to the cost difference.
Great topic Steve Again!
I think LFP is the better chemistry for the reason you pointed out and for several other reasons like environmental costs, financial considerations, ease of mineral availability, etc
It looks like Aptera is going to move towards LFP in the future based on their agreement with Formosa AdvEnergy
Yes but either way you won't be going 0-100%. More like 20-100% so 320 mile range. Not a huge difference.
Great explanation- easy understand.
Thanks for reading the research for us - and explaining it so clearly too. For home charging my devices with lithium-ion batteries, I'd use a battery limiter. I have a Chargie app and I can limit power charging to 75% or 80% - even if I forget to get my phone off the charger overnight - which I usually do, haha. Have you ever experienced using battery limiters or power limiters?
also i have heard is if you keep the Lithium batteries between 20 - 90% charged at all times it increases the life span.
No it will not increase the life span it only prolonged the battery inevitability degradation of the battery life.
I hope i cleared the misconception.
50% state of charge (SoC) maximizes lifespan. Lifespan starts decline significantly the longer your batter stays charged 60% or more according to research studies.
SEI is accually also a good thing cause it protects the graphite anode from degradation
It will be curious to see how / if Aptera manages the battery. Will it precondition like a Tesla on the way to a fast charger? Can you precondition manually? The battery is liquid cooled, is it not? I sure hope so. One thing I like about the solar is that it’s constantly trickle charging the battery. So, the less I have to plug it in the better. Is that correct or am I mistaken? So many questions.
i sure hope aptera liquid cools the battery, the chance of thermal run away increases with out it. especially since those of us that load this with solar panels leaving it out in the sun all day every day. i might pass if it has no active cooling for the batteries, and they are using nmc as well. lfp can probably handle the load with out fire, but nmc is going to become a fireball with out proper management.
There is liquid cooling, however instead of running the coolant through a radiator with a fan, the coolant will run through channels in the skin on the bottom of the car in front of the rear wheel, and it will use the skin as a heat sink, or radiator. Additionally, with the efficiency and less power needed to run, plus the lower charging speed, there should not be as much heat produced. If you live in a sunny place like San Diego, you should expect 40 miles of solar charging if you get all the solar options.
Me living in the PNW and having my driveway on the NE side of my house will probably expect a lot less solar charging, but when I am in Florida, maybe I won't be so worried about plugging it in every day on trips
@@kenmcclow8963 thank you!
Excellent video !!!
Glad you liked it!
@@ApteraOwnersClub Do you think Aptera will be sell in Canada ? If so what are your expectations in snow conditions (handling, cabin heating, etc...) ?
They intend to sell in Canada for sure. I think it will do well in snow as long as it's plowed and that heating will be really good because the cabin is small and composites insulate much better than metal.
7:57 what are "these particles"?
So... What is the optimal process for home charging when in a cold climate? Would it be ideal for the vehicle to use the connected Level 2 charger to heat up the battery before it begins charging? Then, you leave it plugged in so that things remain warm?
Now, you drive to work and it's parked outside on a really cold day. Does operating it cause the same issues?
Yes, you want it to warm the battery up before charging it. You also want it warm when driving so that regen works. The main issue that I know of on draining a cold battery is reduced capacity.
@@nullpointer782 That's what I thought. Strange, if this is such a significant part of the whole longevity part, why don't most vehicles have a "conditioning" component to the charging process? I do see it on some, but it's more a rarity than I would have thought given the benefit.
If my route planner is taking me to a charging station for this trip, should the vehicle not strive to arrive with the battery at the ideal condition to accept that charge? If I'm connecting at home, should there not be a setting to have the vehicle wait to charge until the battery is heated/cooled to the ideal? Should the vehicle not prepare itself for driving on a schedule? I mean most people work set hours and it isn't that hard to program something like "if home and plugged in, be ready to go at 7am mon-fri". "If at work, be ready to go at 5pm". Sure, there are exceptions, but those kind of regular drive cycles should be fairly standard.
Seems there is a lot more software that can come into play to optimize the most expensive part of the vehicle to replace.
Arriving at a supercharger with the battery preconditioned is a feature that Tesla added a while back. Active temperature management has both performance and longevity benefits. You see the extremes in the Nissan Leaf with no thermal management and horrible longevity, to Tesla with great thermal and legendary longevity.
Why do they travel and how?!
General rules of thumb for longest battery life with these.
Try to control temperatures. Park in the shade, in covered parking, try to avoid too much heat or too much cold. Climate controlled environments are best for when not in use.
Only charge up to 80% of the battery capacity.
Try not to drain below 20% of the batteries capacity.
Do not rapid charge your battery. Slow Level 1 charging is going to be the most gentle on the batteries life.
I really wish that they taught people this about EV's, but sadly most people somehow think that these batteries don't degrade and will just last forever. I have heard stuff like that come out of some very well known people in the EV community that have large audiences right here on TH-cam say things like that. It is flat out just wrong.
Even the manufacturers warranty for EV's will tell you that normal degradation is 2-3% per year if well taken care of and that DC fast charging will accelerate that degradation. They state that because they say that is normal wear and tear and does not qualify for warranty repair or replacement if it falls within those parameters.
If well taken care of these things can last a long time, but if abused and rapid charged frequently degradation will be a fact of life. As we have seen recently with the skyrocketing costs of everything do not assume the replacement batteries are going to be abundant or cheaper in the future. It may not be the case.
Really nice explanantion !
Good day. Please help, my 200ah 5kwh 24v Lithium-ion battery's BMS shuts down too often during discharge. It charged normal and allows bypass from grid (through the inverter). But anytime there's no grid and it's discharging to supply load, the BMS shuts down after about an hour (average). What can cause this? I've done several troubleshooting, changed inverters to different products and also moved the battery to a separate house, all the same. Kindly help
Interesting theoretical explanation, but there are plenty of papers out there that are based on measured performance (usually of Tesla Model 3 since they have the most experience) that show far lees damage from supercharging. In addition, there are failure modes from manufacturing problems that matter, often much more than the time/charge/discharge causes. Those are what cause early failures, so-called birth defects. The whole story is hugely complex and telling just part may not be the best use of our limited ability to worry about things. Worry less.
Most important is a decent BMS system. The Tesla BMS system is very good at keeping cell drift at a minimum. Some batteries even accept a couple 100mV of drift between cell(segments) which is destructive in the long term. Also, while supercharging, Tesla's system of cooling is fantastic. Its basically a 'mat' in between most cells. For instance, VAG group (Volkswagen i.e.) only cools bottom of the pack, so there will be high dT (delta T) in the pack, which is also horrible for Li-Ion batteries. I'm not a Tesla fan, dont get me wrong, I hate how they try to ban out 3rd party repairs, but their BMS and cooling system is far superior to what any other manufacturer brings today. The Ioniq 5 has BIIIIG temperature differences in the pack while fast charging as well. Doesnt matter short term, gives HUGE degradation in the long run...
have you seen the new lithium titanate batteries that can recharge over 20,000 times? how can they have such a drastic increase?
Would a LiFePO4 battery that is charged to say.. 3.2V, and left on its own until it reaches 2.9V by self-discharge, and then slowly charged back up to 3.2, repeat ad nauseam. Could this battery last more than 10 years?
Regular nmc batteries used in EVs last early more than 10 years so you're scenario would be much easier
Thanks dude!
Nice only missing a pressure safety release, even better something like what they put on water heaters a chamber for higher temp liquid contractions and expansion. Besides safety pressure relief valve, Because liquid does not compress.
Amazing!
I want to drive an Aptera before Miami goes underwater please!
I can hardly wait to go into the snooty Aptera dealer (show room where I ordered my Model 3 in JAX FL) and put the salesman on the defensive with my new knowledge of how a Lithium battery works.
When should it be preheated? I live in Southern California and in the winter my garage seldom gets below 35 degrees. I level 2 charge.
i think preheating is mainly for colder climates that we have here in Canada like -30s.
Also I hope Aptera gives us details videos on changing the tires because we have to alternate between summer and winter tires every 6 months.
@@Soothsayer210 If you're asking about the front tires/wheels, Steve posted a video awhile back about that. It's not much different than a regular car. They haven't released anything about the rear wheel yet TMK.
@@tims8603 no, it was not a complete post without any info. on back tires and removing the wheel panes.
@@Soothsayer210 Yeah, I said there's nothing about the rear wheel. Aptera said that the wheel pants will be easy to remove with just a few common tools.
@@tims8603 i would have liked to have a complete video in one place instead of multiple places because we (here in Canada) change ALL the wheels twice in a year according to the seasons.
Anode is in wrong position, Anode is positive not negative.
I also think so. why he post the picture different
super interesting! :-)
👍💪💜💯
I'm back, and I'm only 2.81% more grumpy. 🤭 The only problem with lithium batteries is... everything. Portable power needs to be cheap, robust, long-lived, readily recyclable, and not dependent on sophisticated charging, monitoring and temperature management systems.
Without any one of those things, such batteries - in this case the ones powering EVs - will remain the preserve of an affluent minority that wants them rather than the majority that actually needs them.
Lithium technology will certainly power Muskmobiles to the satisfaction of their differently poor owners, but that's of no interest to 95% of the planet's population.
And this IS all about saving the planet, isn't it? Remember the planet? Big round thing covered in humans and garbage?
I thought that ditching fossil fuels was all about sustainability, renewable energy, and doing the maximum amount of good to help the greatest number of people, yadda, yadda, yadda, not just placating a strutting, preening, uncaring, First World elite.
Scrape away the hype and the various rechargeable lithium formulae are no better than any of their unsatisfactory predecessors - lead-acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel metal hydride, magic beans, whatever. Lithium's replaced them by shouting the loudest and wooing the wealthy.
I'm not impressed. I run my camera and flash units (I'm into macro photography) on Ni-MH batteries, which I think are superior to the lithium alternatives. I've been using the same set of Eneloop rechargeables for almost ten years. They're excellent.
According to the charger's readout and my own empirical findings they're as good today as the day I bought them. They're more resilient and less sensitive to the vagaries of over-charging, over-discharging, and just sitting around than lithium cells.
I use them in my RC model aircraft equipment, too. In comparison, the LiPo (lithium polymer) packs that most modellers use to power the flight motors are fragile, temperamental, unacceptably short-lived and hideously expensive.
Lithium-ion, lithium polymer... Meh. I expect rechargeable batteries to last without the services of their own intensive care unit.
"Ooh," people say, "but look at lithium's energy density!"
Nuts to its energy density. I prefer to compromise on performance and look at its cost. EV manufacturers are desperate to flog their plush products to the right class of people so they emphasise battery efficiency in terms of range. It's an unhealthy obsession.
I'm not an engineer, but I bet it'd be possible to make an ordinary EV with fair range and acceptable performance without lithium cells. Sure, it wouldn't be the fastest or go the farthest or look the coolest on paper, but I'm sure it'd be the cheapest.
And how much performance do you really need? I emphasise the word 'need'. You could probably even make a workable lead-acid battery powered EV. After all, they were building them 100 years ago. What happened? Ah, well, they were seen as women's cars (ewwww!) so the petroleum industry phased them out in favour of more manly vehicles.
Sigh.
I suspect that a lot of people without size, performance or status issues would be perfectly happy with an EV having a range of 150 miles and a top speed of 60 mph. Small battery = lighter car = reasonable performance. Smaller battery also = more frequent stops to recharge, BUT the recharging would take less time, so... Why not? Why aren't there more slow, cheap, small, simple EVs with batteries that don't degrade if you stare at them?
Because the motor industry needs people to fall in love with lithium. Nothing succeeds like excess. More is better; greed is good. Good for business. Welcome to the 1950s.
And there you have it: lithium is all about cash, not efficiency.
That's what cripples the technology. That's why I say it's garbage. It's too fragile, too dependent on external management.
Outside the EV world you can indeed buy budget/economy lithium batteries, but they won't last beyond a year. That's ludicrous. I can make a pair of tights last longer than that.
Alas, lithium batteries have become the darlings of the more mental environmental groups and are a convenient prop for governments eager to be seen to be embracing a renewable future.
One of the few [in my opinion] positive points of the Aptera is that it's supposedly capable of providing adequate performance with a smallish battery. That's good. Unless you're regularly crossing continents, small, light batteries make more sense than carrying round a ton of excess baggage.
The thing about a petrol or diesel tank is that it gets lighter as it empties. Yay. EV owners fret about saving weight and have hissy fits over the aerodynamics of door mirrors and specify expensive lightweight materials whilst remaining oblivious to the huge millstone of a battery under their feet/seat dragging them to the bottom of the efficiency curve.
Chauffeuring an unproductive 1,000+lbs of battery 180 miles with 50% charge and only a driver on board is probably the last word in "Look-at-me!" motoring.
The burden of dead weight is likely to be what makes electric-powered medium- and long-haul airliners impractical.
When literally every extra gram has to be paid for in fuel, no airline will want to fly an 18 ton battery around the world when 9 tons of it is just along for the ride. Nine tons represents an awful lot of unpaying passengers.
If carrying excess battery weight is bad for cars, don't forget that airlines even use reduced-weight plastic cutlery; some have forks with 3 tines instead of 4 because the tiny weight saving makes a measurable difference in fuel costs over a plane's working life of 45+ million miles.
That's what I call caring about efficiency.
You'll have noticed that I'm not a fan of lithium battery tech; it'll continue to attract my scorn until it's rendered obsolete by the discovery of Chemical X (gratuitous Powerpuff Girls reference).
Let me know when that all happens. Oh...we will both be dead and our great grandchildren
Can’t believe that this guy wrote a comment long as a book! I did not read it through because the beginning was quite BS, please someone correct me if I missed something.😅
You are part genius, part grumpy old man. I love it!
Complete rubbish, mines brilliant and yes cuts my costs in fuel by £2000 a year so is cheaper than an ice car as long as I own it for 7 years plus . I feel this guy is a very jealous person or a bit like rain man.
Put all these recent posts in a "Fear, Uncertainty, Dismay" Playlist. Way to drum the excitement 🙄
I think you misunderstand the goals of this channel. The goal isn't to build excitement or be a cheerleader. The goal is the educate and entertain people on topics relevant to Aptera. I am obviously one of the biggest fans of Aptera being both a reservation holder and investor and having a youtube channel about it but I'm not here to try to make it sound like batteries will last forever, solar is the answer to everything, EVs don't cause any environmental damage, the company is doing great financially and will absolutely be the most successful company ever, everything is roses are amazing. We're going to present relevant information as we find it and speculate on the implication of it if that is also relevant.
If you want just cheerleading, there are several channels that do that. If you want just Fear Uncertainty and Dismay, there's a certain Australian guy who's also got you covered.
@@ApteraOwnersClub Certain Australian Guy has somehow managed to lower my opinion of an entire continent.
@Robert Kirchner lol I know what you mean but Australians are awesome. I love them and country is beautiful and other than driving on the wrong side of the road the vacation down there was amazing. I wouldn't let one person dim your view of an entire continent :)
@@ApteraOwnersClub well said, Steve. That’s why I subscribe to this channel for Aptera info and no where else. I’ve never been an early adopter. I’ve certainly never owned a vehicle that wasn’t by a legacy manufacturer. This will be the first. I am fine with things not being perfect AS LONG AS I KNOW going in. I’m will to buy eyes wide open. There will be unexpected challenges along the way. But this is a channel where we can be enthusiastic while also being truthful and realistic.
@@robertkirchner7981 might be because they have head down and feet up 🤣
Now seriously, "du choc des idées jaillit la lumière" which can be translated as "from the clash of ideas springs light"