I mean 12tone and serial music sounds cool on paper, but is often really not enjoyable for most people. There‘s a reason they stopped composing serial music rather quickly.
Absolutely nailed it. Many consider the first examples of postmodernism in classical music to be the 1960's minimalist works of Terry Riley, La Monte Young, Steve Reich, etc. Early minimalism was highly tonal and a very deliberate reaction against the atonal absolute serial compositions which dominated the classical genre in the previous decade. Postmodernism, at its root, IS tonal. Rick, I love your videos, but your notion of what postmodernism represents in music is waaaay off the mark.
Would you really call it shredding, though? I'm sure Rick could post hoc justify it with jargon, but it doesn't seem to convey any information other than a lack of information. Even within the constraints of maintaining quasi-tonality, it's like a randomized collection of half spoken phrases.
it's called the piano roll - should have drew in some velocity data to help make it sound like it's actually going somewhere. Also, I thought Rick hated quantization? ;)
What you're talking about isn't postmodernism, though, it's high modernism's long hangover. A number of the most philosophically "postmodern" composers I can think of are highly tonal-John Adams comes to mind as a perfect example-it's just that their approach to tonality tends to be very... unsentimental? It's a bit like Stravinsky's "objective" compositional period, where there's a lot of elegant tonal grammar but it's divorced from making any overt emotional statements, which is the sort of thing that gets your music called "chilly" and "weird" but not "atonal." Serialism and other non-tonal techniques, while at times incorporating postmodern musical ideas (interpolations of fragments of pop tunes, the use of non-instruments like radios and turntables), are a reflection of early twentieth century high modernist ideas about how art ought to reflect or divorce itself from the perceived ugliness of the real world in different ways, not the deconstructive manoeuvres of postmodern philosophy. There are certainly postmodern-minded atonal composers like, say, Brian Ferneyhough, but for as respected a teacher and composer as he is, it's not like he has legions of imitators. His music is too difficult for that. And certainly the roots of what we might call postmodernism in music can be found in atonal-leaning composers like John Cage, but people know him more for his esoteric "statement" pieces than for his serial compositions; to whit, as much credit can be given to the likes of György Ligeti and Morton Feldman, who aren't exactly your typical twelve-tone diehards either. Which circles back to the minimalists, and... you get my point. I think you're conflating two pretty different things to complain about a third, somewhat unrelated thing, which is the relative lack of harmonically sophisticated tonal composers in the modern academy.
« There's still plenty of good music to be written in C major » - Arnold Schönberg Yeah, you read that right, Schönberg, the inventor the 12-tone series, said that, and he lived by it too. He wrote tonal music until the end of his life, as well as atonal. One thing that I believe is true is that the tonal system in the strict sense of functional harmony is no longer seen as the be-all end-all it once was in western Europe (and by extension in America). In this narrow sense "tonal music" is dead, not because it's no longer possible to write tonal music, but because the expectations of the listeners are no longer shaped only by it. We do not anymore feel strongly when we listen to music that there must always be a tension-resolution cycle following all the rules and leading us back to the tone where we started. I'm not sure what the relationship to post-modernism is. Schönberg lived and died before the hey-days of post-modernism. Post-modernism is a term that never had a very clear meaning but it's associated with people who were prominent in the late 60s and the 70s, twenty years after Schönberg had died. And for that matter, Schönberg's heirs direct (Webern) or indirect (Boulez), do not belong to post-modernism. They pretty obviously belong to modernism, the artistic movement that was prominent in the 1930s and still in the 1950s... I'm honestly not sure what music could qualify as "post-modern", maybe spectral stuff ? Stockhausen, perhaps ? In any case, rants about how "Why X music sucks" are never very convincing.
It's about attitude. The postmodern "philosophical" view is that "there's no such thing as tonal music" and that "all music is of equal value". For a "normal" person (which you sound like), this doesn't make sense, at which point, a postmodernist would say "that's because you're not smart enough to understand", when the truth (which they conveniently deny the existence of), is that you ARE right; it doesn't make sense. Rick's point here is that it is possible - necessary, even - to create new, innovative music through *understanding* the orthodoxy and using, even selectively. To a postmodernist, learning about the orthodoxy is bad as it "taints" your thinking; you should just mash the keys randomly and call the result music, because you *feel* it is music. Again, to anyone with any sense, this is ludicrous, but that's really what they claim to believe.
@@edwardcullen1739 Honestly this version of postmodernism sounds like a bit of a strawman. While it's true that post-modernism is often accused of being strongly relativist (about the aesthetics but also about morals), I don't think post-modernism in itself questions the idea of following one's own sensibility. That is, relativism is arguably an argument that's on the side of people who want to follow their artistic sensibility, and do not care if it breaks preestablished rules. But that's not a dimension that was new in post-modernism. I think the great difference between modern art and post-modern art is a greater attention paid to the medium and using the art itself to discuss the medium. E.g in "modern" stories you get characters discussing the human condition, in "post-modern" stories you get characters discussing their condition of characters in a story. Under this angle, "post-modern music" would be music that makes a commentary about music (if that's possible), not music that breaks the rules of music.
@@TyphonBaalHammon I'm talking about philosophical postmodernism, which I thought was the subject here, in so much how philosophical postmodernist attitudes are leading composers down blind alleys where no good music resides. It only *sounds* like a straw man, because philosophical postmodernism is so ludicrous. Philosophical postmodernism is ENTIRELY relativistic. You're point about artistic roots is a good one, for the wrong reasons. Postmodernist philosophy describes mathematics and science as tyrannical because they are imposed, which is a complete misunderstanding of reality. Science and mathematics are DESCRIPTIVE and the only imposition is that made by the natural world, not by man. Postmodernist philosophy rejects any systematic description of the world around us and so rejects a systematic approach to the creation of art, which is what Rick is taking about.
That's wrong. The beauty and power of tonal music is that we still do expect it the same way that we expect the universe to continue to follow Newton's Laws. We may know better, but we just can't help ourselves.
@@soulscanner66 We expect it when we listen to it, but we do not have a feeling of necessity when we listen to other stuff. In more than a century, there has been plenty of beautiful and expressive music that did not follow the rules of traditional tonality, whether in western classical music, in jazz, or in later styles. Of course when we listen to Mozart, we can expect resolutions, in fact we often see them coming from a mile away, but that's because it's Mozart's style. But when we don't get them, whether in a Debussy prelude or in a Schönberg concerto, or in a Xenakis piece, or in an Eagles song or whatever, we do not feel cheated. I'm right in the middle of listening to Schnittke's Concerto Grosso #1, which contains plenty of chords that would have sounded alien to people 200 years ago. (Actually, the use of citation in this piece, the way it's written which references many different styles, seem to me to be a very good example of artistic post-modernism, done right)
You should give more examples of what post modern music is. Post- modern music would be more than just the absence of tonality. I often see the avant garde described as post-modern. Is Stockhausen post modern? La Monte Young? Pierre Boulez ? Glenn Branca and John Cage? Because if this is the case then I disagree. The rejection of some conventions is what has led to some of the most innovative composers of our times.
The Mothers of Invention are my favourite rock band and Uncle Meat one of my favourite albums. They were sometimes completely avant-garde. The man was a genius and his catalogue is varied, describing his music as a whole is challenging.
DuckTalesWooHoo1987 That would depend on the era, album, band, etc. He used theory though, and could write orchestral pieces, while he also had no problem jamming a guitar with the best of them, and do it in many different styles.
Perfect timing for me to hear this video. Not just the music, but the words. I don't understand half of it, but what I do understand, I get, which opens my brain for understanding more. Your speaking style is clear and direct. My brain zero's in when you talk. That's a gift!
I absolutely adored your piece but I have no idea what you or any of the commenters here mean by "postmodernism." I've studied postmodernism at length in graduate school and in my scholarly career and what you people are referring to as "postmodern" is not that. "Atonal" music was a by-product of modernism----postmodernism would be something like a parodic or kitschy return to tonal music.
Yes, I don't know if he means postmodernism in music or in philosophy (actually, most of that postmodernism is in places like literary theory, most philosophers think that postmodernism is bs). I don't think that he actually means postmodernism in music. In general, I don't think that postmodernism in art has much to do with the other kind of postmodernism.
I thought he was gonna say “sarcasm” or “ironic detachment” or “lack of sincerity” was a problem with postmodern pop music. Bcuz like u said pastiche or kitschy is much more postmodern than atonal.
When you talk about music that lacks tonality, I would argue it's more in reference to modernism that postmodernism. In a musical sense, postmodernism was partly a response to modernism (i.e serialsm). As part of this response, a lot of postmodern music made use of harmony and tonality, trying to re-establish a connection to the musical lineage that came before modernism. In this sense, many film composers, such as the ones you discussed, can be seen as postmodern, as they often reference back to older styles, why also incorporating new concepts. This fusion of various facets of musical history is really what is at the heart of postmodernism. (All of this is according to the uni course I took on the subject) Edit: tl;dr: you are talking about modernism, not postmodernism.
Yep, postmodernism in art music is in broad terms more tonal. It means something different in music than it does to other disciplines ie philosophy. Correct me if I'm wrong but postmodern music was questioning the complete abandonment of tonality from the modernist composers. Its almost like postmodernism is actually a return to objectivity. Again, correct me if I'm wrong :)
It was originally, but that misses the point. Look at the wiki page for postmodern music at the examples of postmodern composers. Berio, Boulez, Carter, Xenakis etc are all there along with the minimalists like Reich etc.
This is wrong, atonal music predates postmodernism by many decades, atonal music is simply an exploration of the outer limits of music beyond tonality, I don't see the problem with people both exploring tonality and atonality and some composers have benefitted from learning and experimenting in atlonal music in a way that informed their tonal compositions greatly and expanded their horizons.
@@SspaceB the fact that you think atonal music is just banging and blowing demonstrates your ignorance of the theory behind it, a lot of atonal music has very complex structures behind it, the idea is the structures aren't confined to traditional tonality, for example there had been brilliant a tonal music that depends on structures created out of hexachordal combinatoriality, so like lacking a shared ptch class between hexachords and it's transpositions.
@Stephen he specifically talks about atonal music so your point is moot, plus there's absolutely no cause for worry the amount of atonal music and even "post modern" music relative in proportion to all music produced is decreasing, im far more concerned with stagnation in pop music rather than "postmodern music" taking over, and even this isn't hugely worrying and there is always good music being produced somewhere
This was one of the finest vids of yours I’ve seen. Content, theoretical perspective, music examples, multi-camera work all kept me riveted. Liked the landscape stuff, too. You made your point well despite not spending (needless) time on analysis of postmodern anything. Clearly something you gave a lot of thought to. Great seeing the production getting tighter. Loved your composition, too!
Doesn't postmodernism mean something different in music? Modernism in music is less defined tonality whereas postmodern classical is a return to more tonality. Correct me if I'm wrong?
Such definitions become incestuous & self justifying. postmodernism is an ethos, a philosophy. As such it is applicable to anything & in it's essential form. To change it's definition from application to application is decidedly postmodern. Ricks point was excellent & doesn't need to be expounded upon. Why beat a dead horse?
@@CaalamusTube Rick's position here is sadly self-contradictory - he blames postmodernism for what is a romantic or 'modernist' conception of subjectivism and then illustrates his concern by lauding the work of a film composer - who is very much a post-modern practitioner (someone who is a hired gun to support a multi-media project ). To claim postmodernism is a philosophy is to put the emphasis on some defining theoretical genius. Kant/Descartes etc. are systems of philosophy deriving from individual people. Post-modernism is rather a characterization of the conditions under which western cultures function (currently-ish). It's more a term of diffuse cultural/social/political diagnosis than a set of manifesto terms you can buy into, or a club to join.
@@stueyapstuey4235 your comment is bullshit unless I buy into postmodernism. It's like socialist claiming something isn't socialism. I don't care what postmodernists think of postmodernism. It's garbage. Like any religious nonsense, it demands you accept it as it's own justification. "The bible is the living word of god. It says so right here in the bible... " You're boring.
@@CaalamusTube I'm not asking you buy into anything. Maybe you're ok with the term Renaissance, maybe you're not. Post-Modernism is a similar handy term to account for things that have happened to culture in the west since WWII. To blame all of that for the 'whatever you want, man' hippy-ish tendency in music is either just a misunderstanding or, ignorance. As to boring, well... value judgements, eh... how high modernist...
Amazing presentation Rick! And I agree with your take on Post-Modernism. I listened to a documentary on Modern Art and they said that "Post-Modernism is another way of being modern." Which may be true in many cases, but it also doesn't tell you much. In grad school I felt I had to read Post-Modern philosophy as it was "de riguer." After struggling to understand it for a while, I finally faced a dilemma: either conclude that I was really dumb, or that PoMo philosophy (Derrida especially!) was mostly bullshit. The latter won out. Later I was to learn that PoMo was a way to attack and dismiss academics who used a structural analysis (class analysis) of society in their work. Since Post Modern academics would deride "grand narratives" they are allergic to a structural or systemic critique. So, people who located serious societal problems in the capitalist SYSTEM, they would become personae non grata. So when did PoMo really hit the academy? Well, after the social movements of the late '60's and early '70's. Post Modernism represents the reactionary turn to neoliberalism in the arts. Fundamentally, that's why it's BS.
On a different note, your videos have come a long way. I remember watching your stuff a year and a half ago and seeing you first come onto youtube. You're doing great!
I think it might be worthwhile to distinguish the difference between Postmodern philosophy and postmodern music. They are different things. Postmodernism, at least in my reading, is about questioning preconceived notions, not about just saying "everything is subjective" (which, I mean it is when it comes to art). That doesn't mean that things can't be bad. I would also say that postmodernism in music reopened the door to tonality in the 60's with the early experiments in musical minimalism. Synthetic scales and serialism are associated more with musical modernism rather than postmodernism. Also, I would say that if you really think that composers like John Adams, Thomas Ades, Nico Muhly, Arvo Part, and James MacMillan don't know how to use harmony, then I think you aren't really paying attention to trends in contemporary classical music. I really like your channel, and appreciate the education you bring to youtube, but I think this video didn't really provide much evidence for your case against postmodernism in music or even distinguish whether you were talking about postmodern philosophy as it relates to music or postmodern music. And to everyone saying "postmodern anything is bad" I hope you don't like the Simpsons, David Lynch, Christopher Nolan Films, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, The Big Lebowski, Slaughterhouse Five, or anything by Quinten Tarantino because they are all easily classifiable as postmodern.
Satire was around long before the coined term of “postmodernism” popped up in undergraduate notepads. Surely Monty Python & the Simpsons are first & foremost satire, especially the early Simpsons. The later Simpsons seem to have meekly converted to the trend of postmodernism in media which is why later Simpsons simply put Homer in silly situations rather than construct a storyline that satirises society or a social norm. Also I would suggest that Seinfeld is satire but Curb Your Enthusiasm is postmodernism. As for Tarantino, well yeah he is definitely postmodernism but he is also a prime example of why contemporary cinema sucks. Maybe this video could have broached the topic of the use of pop music in contemporary cinema. ✌🏼
@@mattkierkegaard9403 I can see your point. But I think we also have to keep in mind that these kind of labels we give to artistic style isn't artists saying "oh I'm going to do the postmodern style", it's the labeling of particular trends in art or philosophy in a time period or following a time period (modernism vs. Post modernism). Monty Python is satirical yes, but what makes it postmodern is the film always calls your attention towards the fact it is a fiction, and absurd, which makes it even funnier in my opinion. It's metafictional, which is a solid example of the postmodern style. Similar to how Kurt Vonnegut opens Slaughterhouse Five by telling you from his perspective that you're about to read a novel. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of postmodernism, (though I love Vonnegut) I just think the term is thrown around A LOT without really understanding what the term actually means. It's still kind of a vague term even among people who study it. I also felt the need to defend contemporary composers from the absurd comment Rick made about them not understanding harmony.
@@@MichaelSmithComposer yeah true, breaking the fourth wall is probably one of the main characteristics of post-modernism. It slipped my mind that Monty Python does do that, occasionally, so yeah you're correct. However, the reason why i do not categorise Monty Python as post-modern is because of it's lack of self-referencing, pop-referencing or moral relativism. Of course they satirise moral standards but they do not impose moral relativism upon us. You mention Monty Python being "absurd" which is funny because i place Monty Python next to Eugene Ionesco, who is well known as an absurdist 😀
wow as I scrolled down through the comments I kept thinking, 'I can just hear Carl Palmer and Greg Lake sparking up now'. And here I am agreeing with others who think the same. Rick's piece is not unlike something many students in my college, including myself would have written back then in England back in the 70s. No mention here of the great successes of post-modernism such as Gorecki for instance, just a rather limited view on the state of post modern classical music. Rick's is never going to be remembered as a composer and maybe that is his problem, I don't know but there are many young composers out there, in whose hands post - modern music is safe and will thrive.
Totally agree about this, and I try to reflect it in my compositions: they need to be complex and interesting, but also have a musical meaning that can be grasped by my audience and first of all they need to be entertaining. Imho Entertainment is the ultimate goal of art. Not the flashy and void type of entertainment, but the high quality one that makes your mind feel better. That's what I look for in music and what I try to do with my stuff.
Thought the piece sounded awesome and rewinded the video to check the artist because I wasn't paying attention... and found out it was written by you. Awesome.
Harold Bloom, the American literary critic and teacher at Yale, when talking about literature has said that there is no such thing as postmodernism, and that is the mistaken name for just a later modernism. But call it what you will, it still seems weird to go after newer music. Nietzsche said that a characteristic of new music is that it generally sounds so foriegn to our ears, that many of us reject the music before giving it a while to be appreciated.
I’m at a loss for words. This Beato character is a serious musical force to be reckoned with, recognized. Historically significant. This is a great piece. So many elements, uniquely engaging the emotive AND intellectual dimensions of music. What makes this “song” great? I want to listen again and again. Very amazing. Beautiful. And astounding. Kudos, Rick Beato.
Gorgeous piano piece, but what does it have anything to do with postmodernism? The video was more "atonality is bad" (which I don't agree with,) and even then you spent very little on why it's bad and more just focused on the structure and composition of your own piece. If you wanted to write a breakdown of a piece you're writing because you really like it, just make a video titled "How I use harmony in composition" or something like that and do the breakdown without the weird ranting about postmodernism. It makes someone who very clearly knows your shit look like you don't and you just want to show off. Instead of an informative video it leaves more the impression of "This thing is bad because I say so! Look, I'm good!"
A few points. Firstly, the idea you should "stay away from tonality" is usually found in modern composers like Boulez, who articulated global theories and structures which are exactly the sorts of things postmodernism is sceptical of. In fact, one of the main schools of composition one would call postmodern, minimalism, is characterised by a move back to tonality. It is utterly absurd to say "people didn't explore things like modes" in the early twentieth century. The exploration of modes by French composers had a profound influence on the very jazz you go on to claim was a greater exploration of the concept. There are countless composers from the twentieth century who used tonality in interesting ways, but you act like this is hot stuff so you can add a clickbaity title to your analysis of your own piano piece. Another point is, why should every composer explore modes before moving into serialism? Of course modes are a useful composition device (in fact, serialism came in part out of Messiaen's exploration of modes), but there is only so much time in the day and some composers might be better served by exploring something else. There is a huge double standard at play considering how many rock musicians you consider worthy of study who wouldn't have the slightest idea what modes are. Usually a fan of your videos, very disappointed by this inaccurate smear of the great tradition of modern classical music.
'the idea you should "stay away from tonality" is usually found in modern composers like Boulez' - Boulez began composition as a committed serialist, and tried to extend serialism into 'total serialism' meaning timbre, dynamics etc. but he had given that up by the mid-60s. He remained - in composition at least - an avant gardist, in the classic Modernist sense, but he was anything but that in his conducting and other public works in music. In conducting and music management in IRCAM he was rather traditional, concerned with accuracy of performance.
@@stueyapstuey4235 Thanks for clarifying, I guess he was just the best example of someone I can think of who thought everyone should adopt twelve tone/serial principles, at least for a time (Schoenberg didn't want everyone to adopt them).
Atonal music of the early 20th century was a rebellion against the constraints of classical harmony. It went to the extreme of deliberate avoidance of tonality, but it opened the gates to a creative wilderness for later composers to explore. The modern composer does not avoid tonality, but neither is he or she bound by a set of rules.
@@aitch9053 what' makes it good ? on a theoretical level ? because if you don't like it, it's just this way. I won't be able to explain the theory, but i love the tense feeling you have, because it's not major or minor even if you get some tonal feelings.
I knew this would be bad. Post-modernism does NOT mean you can do anything. It is an extraordinarily complex and losely defined body of philosophical work meant to explain our current state of affairs and critique modernist assumptions. It is not proscriptive. Anyone watching this or too many Jordan Peterson would be advised to instead read Beaudrillard, Foucault, Derrida etc. If you don't want to commit the time to those decidedly turgid authors, I can't blame you. But don't imagine you actually understand what post-modernism is until you've wrestled with its actual philosophers. Rick is obviously an intelligent, cultured, and accomplished man, but this is a sad misreading of post-modernism.
@@samswank I'm not criticising Ricks work. That would be stupid. He's a way better musician than I could ever hope to be. I'm criticising his understanding of post-modernism.
Sorry, but I'm with the Gadfather on this. Postmodernism is faux-profundity which is a cancer in the mind of the uneducated. If you think it's clever, then you're not as smart as you think you are.
Having read Foucault and Derrida it's no wonder that our universities and instructors who buy into them are producing a generation that negates centuries of thought and study and replace them with relativistic jumbo jumbo. Gravity is a social construct? Good Luck on the way down.
Enjoyed the piece immensely, Rick. Music without a frame is not enjoyable for me. Great job of pushing the boundaries without creating a dumpster fire.
I mean, the post-modern aesthetic is just as valid as classical and tonal aesthetic, it’s just that the post-modern aesthetic is intentionally difficult, and is billed as an attempt to depart from the limited aesthetic possibilities of tonal composition. Post-modernism as a concept, at it’s core, is about exploring how new systems can be created, what aesthetic purpose those systems can hold, and whether they contribute a new kind of feeling or understanding of sound. Whether you like him or not, Cage is a perfect example of this. Reading Silence, he presents a fairly novel approach to composition, taking into account the properties of silence in ways that composers had not before. And lo and behold, those ideas around silence we’re picked up by tonal composer Toru Takemitsu in his own compositions.
The world is a better, more artistically enriched place because of John Cage's work. You don't have to like it, I certainly don't. But I appreciate that there was someone out there creating that kind of art and testing the limits of what people considered music, or art, or value, in the first place.
Totally agree. The purpose of post-modernism (in any field) isn't to say known patterns *should* be replaced, but to show that they *could* and open up for creativity
When I first listened to the piece, I thought about half of it was pretty good. That is, it shined in a number of places and then diminished in interest with various keyboard noodlings. On the second listen, it grew on me quite strongly. The parts I thought good the first time around, struck me as beautiful the second time. The parts I felt were loose noodling and imposed rapid fire sections began to appear as lead-ins and ties for the richer parts and became a greater whole. The first listening told me I wouldn't care to hear it again for pleasure, as something on a playlist I regularly enjoyed. The second listening told me that I liked it very much and it could be part of a repertoire of new music I really liked to hear again and again. Kudos, Rick. It appears you are a real composer of music people want to hear.
Yes!! Thomas Newman is amazing! The Lemony Snicket score is one of my favorites. And your piece reminds me of the timeline of a human life. Slow parts with parts that feel like we're living in dog years :)
The piano piece is full of intent and compelling ideas. I’d wear it! Regarding postmodernism, I don’t care for its license for meaningless posturing in the Arts; if you’ve got nothing to say, don’t say it. As always, love your work Rick and get that album of your composition out into the world. Cheers bro’.
You don't really explain why postmodernism in music is bad, you just did an analysis of your composition. Postmodernism doesn't equate with abandoning equally tempered tonality and harmonic conventions per se. Alfred Schnittke and Wolfgang Mitterer are examples of postmodern composers whose compositions are characterized as referencing and juxtaposing with contemporary aesthetics. There are also composers like Einojuhani Rautavaara who meld post-romanticism, neo-classicism with modernism, which arguably a form of postmodernism.
he said it at he beginning. postmodernism in music is bad because it's A tonal. there's no direction, just random note playing, unpredictable 'noise', if the player doesn't know what he's playing, where he's going and how he got there, then it will sound like crap.
Not all postmodern music atonal. Postmodernist music was by and large a reaction against atonality and dodecophony. 'Noise' is a very subjective term and shouldn't really be applicable to atonal music.
I'm experimenting with modes constantly in my investigation of Hebrew cantillation- which by the way, seems to be the origin of the Spaghetti Western style of music! Replace vocals with instrumentals, and Torah chant = the Old West hahaha
Rick, I really admire you, but there are a couple of things I need to say on this topic. As a classical trained student of composition, I must say that teachers were a lot more close minded on musical language, but those were the years of the new complexity, nowaday teachers are a lot more open to tonaliy, as long as it is not merely an imitation of mozart or doesn't have anything personal. I liked your piece, but with all respect, harmony isn't everything in music! In order to give unity and variety to your piece you need to have some guidelines. Beethoven wasn't a great melodist, and his harmonies wete pretty innovating, but have you checked his process of developing? Check out his piano sonatas and analyze them, not the harmony, but the motivic development. We as classical contemporary composers are taught with those masterpieces how the music can be organic in this way, and if you study them, a lot of contemporary classical composers wrote with this framework. Messiaen, Stockhausen, Varesse, Ligeti, Cage. That's my only problem with jazz musicians, their harmonies are great, beautiful, haunting, and their improvisations are very playful, but that's not all there is!
Bryan Yep Bethoven is not a great melodist? 9th symphony Für elise Piano sonata no.8 II Violin concerto no.5 5th symphony (one of the most famous melodies of all time) 7th symphony II Piano sonata no.1
@@JT-jt2id 5th symphony is one of the most famous, but it's really a 'great' melody? compared to Haydn's, Mozart's or Schubert's? Bryan is not saying that as an insult, Beethoven himself said that about his melodies, they are most of the time simplistic and even boring if you take them off the piece.
@@JT-jt2id Being famous doesn't make them great. Take Beethoven's melodies, strip them from their rich harmonies, their complex counterpoints, and their sophisticated developments, and compare them to some of Mozart's melodies or arias (for example). Beethoven was one of the greatest composers of all time, and the most revolutionary of its time, but melodies certainly weren't his strongest point. By the way, I'm not alone in saying this, many composers and researchers of Beethoven's work have adressed the same topic.
Bryan Yep Yes they are simple. And they're beutiful And you cannot look at a melody in isolation. What makes a great melody is its syntax, its rise and fall in relation to a harmony. Bachs melodies work in isolation because they tend to be compund melodies (and they don't exactly tend to be aria material), but mozart's and bethoven's and haydn's and schubert and Liszts and bellinis etc's melodies are made by their harmony. And perhaps melodies become famous for a reason. And simplistic? What mozart's melodies aren't? He just hides it better
Great discussion, Rick. My training is classical. When I compose I rarely do anything tonal these days. I absolutely use knowledge of tonal theory to inform my decisions in breaking and bending traditional harmonic rules. I hate when people say you don't need to know theory to make non-tonal music. I just don't see how it doesn't make it easier to know the total theory if you want to break those rules.
The idea of postmodernism exists because most ideas have already been mined, so people are naturally looking to see if there is anything else. However, it's like doing a search of your couch cushions for change to make the rent; it doesn't yield much. There's always a reaction to orthodoxy like the middle ages for instance. As a result, you get a new orthodoxy, so when you return to the prior form (like a return to classical forms like with the Renaissance and Modernism) it feels new and fresh. Music is just riding that same roller coaster.
I don’t mind the postmodern notion that there are a nearly infinite amount of ways to interpret something. I think that’s just a truism. It’s when they take that extra leap of “therefore, one isn’t better than another” that screws stuff up. This belittling of the idea of a standard is very regressive. I agree with Rick here 100%.
Torc Handsomeson I don’t see how your comment contradicts mine. Finding new ways to assess quality sounds like a very worthwhile and interesting endeavor.
Postmodernism gets a bad rap for the wrong reason, is more about the thought experiment "what if we had different frames of view", as you say, rather than *advocating* for not choosing one Some people will be snobby and say something's "better" because it rejects more standards. Which of course goes totally against the spirit of postmodernism which would say that's just another feasible option
Wow, you are an amazing composer. Teach me. I do understand why someone is looking for a more meaningful, honest way to express oneself BUT being completely random is the opposite of expression. Being completely random is the opposite of who we are. Words without structure would be complete nonsense. Try a postmodern walk. LOL More words in one vocabulary helps create a richer way to express oneself. The same is true with art. The best example of what appears to be chaos is nature. The universe - nature is very structured with sophisticated patterns, colors, etc. From a distance nature looks chaotic and random. Closer observation, nature purpose is very clear.
Mr Beato, massive fan of the channel - you're amazing at making musical theory accessible! That said this video is fundamentally misrepresenting post-modernism in a way that betrays your musical theory: post-modernism is a critical lens on modern narrative of philosophy, which might be why you felt the grand idea was a rejection of 'expert analysis' of basic music theory. But it's more a rejection of, to translate, the idea that ionian mode is 'pure' while mixylodian is 'wrong' - post-modernism is better understood as an endorsement of jazz's experimentation vs. the 'popular music' endorsement of what's considered 'acceptable composition.' It's a rough comparison but that's more because post-modernism is, almost by design, too varied to nail down in a musical sphere.
Rick, you have some very good content in your channel, but I think you're getting a couple of things wrong when you talk about this kind of things. In this case: 1) in your piece there are tonal elements (i. e. triadic chords with added sounds), but it's not tonal since they follow no syntax. It's an example of chromatic harmony, it's been used since postromanticism or impressionism. 2) and more important, your piece is a perfect example of Post-Modernism. You take things from here and there (which have been already used a million times in other periods and other places) and you put them together only because you like them and they're at your disposal. I'm not saying you can't write music like that if you feel like, I'm just saying you're confusing terms here.
Thanks for the enlightment, I’m gonna give all my degrees back and forget all I’ve read about the subject. Maybe you should make a video actually speaking about Modernism and Post-Modernism so we The Ignorant Mass can learn something from you.
From the perspective of a guy like me (I know only *some* music theory), it seems as though disjointed & manic rhythms, mixed with whacky dissonance are the hallmarks of this stuff. Basically, if a broad audience can't tell if you're "playing it wrong", you've nailed it! Thanks as always Rick for “levelling me up“ every time I watch one of your videos! Oh, and about JP... He keeps frustrating me by making sense... He's got me rolling my eyes at myself every time I agree with something he says... I honestly don't know which way I lean as of this exact moment in time!
Great video. Each time I listen to your compositions my ears are pleasantly challenged, forcing my Music IQ to be elevated, even if I am progressing in small increments. Thanks for your continued tireless output.
Postmodernism is bad for reasons still unexplained. Rick, postmodern techniques may not make classical bangers, but it’s an incredibly unique movement that breaks traditional structure and opens sonic textures up infinitely. Your piece legit sounded like something Gershwin would write at times. I really was hoping for something stimulating to digest, but you literally just said postmodernism bad then analyzed your piece but didn’t explain where the connection was. Is it because you don’t like music that isn’t tonal? I don’t know because there was no conclusion
TheJumboBurrito My understanding of his video is that he’s claiming people are supposedly being told that the only way to innovate as composers is to use atonality/postmodernism, which is of course untrue. It seems less of an indictment against postmodernism itself. Honestly I think he just used that term & that title for better SEO and viewership than anything else. I can’t really begrudge him of that if this is indeed the case, since TH-cam is a pretty capricious platform.
Substance D I just hate how the comments have become a bashing of one of the most influential movements on today’s youth and the direction of society. They think it’s about taking value out of everything but that isn’t at all true.
TheJumboBurrito I understand, and totally agree with you! I would guess that >99% of people talking about postmodernism on the internet don’t have any understanding of what it is outside of what JBP told them.
To transcend the tonal-atonal argument, I would say that we should never think in terms of right or wrong in music - instead observe and understand the emotional effect created in you by whatever you hear, or arrive at by experimenting. These will become your palate for creating music to express an emotion or depicting something. This most fundamental understanding of how music works is more than a theory - it is physics, which is why it is also intuitive. It will encompass all sound and provide a deeper explanation to all theories. (For example, how 2 frequencies fit together, or how they misalign, is at the very core of rhythm and harmony. I categorise intervals into 'fixed', 'floating', 'compressed' & 'decompressed', and they sound like that because they actually are!) The postmodernist trash you're referring to (and I've heard my fair share!) seems to have been composed by following a process not related to the emotional parameters of music, therefore without the composer being in touch with the emotional properties of their material, or what they are trying to depict. There are plenty of composers who do compose using emotion or depiction of some source of inspiration. I like Polaris by Thomas Ades, for example.
Y'know what's funny, that's how I found out about his channel. I am ten times more interested in music theory than how bad apple is (and apple is really really bad) but that video intrigued me because I could definitely see his pain especially because he's a music producer. Now I'm hooked.
Happy holidays Rick. Hope you and your family have a happy new year. Thanks so much for all your teaching and fro creating interesting music. You're an inspiration man. I have learned so much from you. Cheers
Downvoted? I wonder if it is for any other reason, than that Rick has such an immense amount of knowledge, & understands music & music theory, at such a level, that you do not even understand his statements? How many of his videos have you seen, & understand? I've seen nearly all of them, & could never imagine downvoting ANY. Please, name some of his "views" from those videos, that you claim to be hilarious.
@@matcoddy6097 I've also seen most, I am a subscriber, love these videos, I do understand music theory well. He didn't say anything incorrect or hard to understand in relation to music theory or even history. The aesthetic (philosophical) assertion that postmodernism teaches "stay away from music theory, you can do anything" is silly. Farther "it doesn't sound good" equating to "is bad" is ridiculous. He is starting a philosophical discussions that he seemingly has not fully thought out, I would like for him to post more on the subject clearing up his language or updating his views
I'm not sure what this has to do with postmodernism, unless postmodern music is just atonal music. I dunno, is this really a thing outside of music college?
Its the idea that you need to break every single rule or else ur bad. U have to break rules when you need to and thats great but the idea that you have to break what sounds good is bad
dont listen to the other guy, postmodernists follow tonality. atonality is a modernist aesthetic. he doesnt understand what hes talking about. do independent research dont rely on a nonphilospher to give you philosophy advice and DONT GO TO JORDAN PETERSON PLEASE DEAR GOD
The day I fully understand the videos of this channel, I'll consider myself an accomplished musician. damn! The depth this guys goes is insane! Makes me kinda feel more excited to know how much is out there in music to go about. Love and hate this guy at the same time lol
man, that's an incredibly dope piece but what the hell is this video title lmao, there's no discussion of "postmodernism" (atonality is modernist and not some kind of refusal of "rules") and it just reads like you just watched a dozen of Jordan "r/iamverysmart" Peterson's lectures. it's very postmodern of you to clap back against modernist concepts in a critical way, deconstructing them and integrating said deconstructions of modernist concepts into your work. it's almost like postmodernism is good or something
I was always taught - and have always found it true - that if the audience doesn't have a line to follow, you'll lose them. So, for what I value in melody and the construction and performance of music, I would consider your piece well within the sphere of postmodernism. Learning the theory of music is like reading a dictionary. It's helpful to know big words and many alternatives, but the grammar is how we communicate coherently. If a rhythm can speak to a soul, and a look can spell your intentions, you don't need tonality or words to connect with someone. That is not a postmodern philosophy.
and it's true that some people fan of this "aesthetic" have no fucking idea on how to use harmony, counterpoint, orchestration properly and musically, I think it's a easy way to hide they have no talent at all tbh..
This is like the Rick and Morty of music. It's a good show, but people think they're intelligent for liking "highbrow" humour. "It got science in it duuuddeee." Making music that is unpleasant to most does not make you a genius.
Beautiful compositions of high information tonality. From the title I thought this was going to be more of a rant, but most of it was positive and educational. Thank you for all you do Rick!
Leaving terminology issues aside, it is a really poor argument that because there is unexplored territory in tonal music, there's no sense in exploring atonal music. There's unexplored territory in madrigals, but no need for us to exhaust that before we write fugues, concertos, or pop songs. But maybe you were being less general than that and only specifically responding to what you heard from your friend? Arguing against the idea that tonality must be avoided. If that's the case I think you have some good ideas, though you probably could have clarified your argument a bit! If this is the tree you were barking up, the video's title is misleading. "But that doesn't mean it sounds good." Now you're onto something. If you can show that atonal composition never or rarely leads to music that sounds good, THAT would be a reason to avoid atonality. I think there's some great stuff out there though, which is a fantastic argument for having a look at it, even if not an exclusive one!
All I kept imagining while the piano piece was playing, is Rick Beato's son, spelling and writing down all those chords in real time :D Beautiful piece and great lesson, btw :)
Indeed. Blows my mind the possibilities when you get into advanced harmony like this. Rick should publish a whole book of chord progressions like 12:05, that's exactly the sort of stuff I want to see more often here!
In their world, its impossible not to be because they got rid of all standards and guidelines to properly judge something. To them everything is subject and nothing is absolute. No right or wrong. No good or bad. Its a terrible and chaotic outlook on life and art.
@@misterknightowlandco Who are "they"? Cause that's totally not what postmodernism means The idea that there's no objective truths, doesn't mean subjective ones or consensus don't exist. Some people have to make the dot on a canvas for someone to make a cool portrait out of a dot matrix. Nothing's right or wrong *without* *a* *context*, you could say Or to put it this way: intentionally going against all prior rules is a strict paradigm in itself, just like what postmodernism tries to put into question
@@metallsnubben without objective truth, there is no truth by definition. Consensus isnt truth. Its the opinion of the majority. See, the very way you speak puts everything you say into the view of post modernism. You literally said nothing in quite a few words. No objective truth? How confused does one have to be to not accept visible truths in the world as a whole including art. Im not personally accusing you of anything because i feel your trying to change what my view of post modernism is because you think im wrong about it, not that you stated its your belief. "They" is simply refering to post modernists. Lol saying my definition of post modernism is wrong completely negates post modernism in and of itself. If definitions are subjective then whatever definition i come up with is correct because its subjective. Since you said my definition is wrong, you clearly dont really believe in post modernism either. What post modernism REALLY boils down to is thats its a way to cause confusion and if you say people who are "intellectuals" are confused then everyone feels smart when their confused. Its a giant mind fuck.
Hi Rick. For me, this video opens side I didn't know you from. You are much better musician than I thought till now. You something much more than rocker. For few days I'm listening this piece over and over. Great work.
In fact, neotonality or extended tonality and _postmodernism_ are pretty much synonymous as far as academia is concerned, after Adorno. But who cares -- great piece!
If you're interested in reading about music from someone also critical of postmodernism I'd recommend Roger Scruton's works on aesthetics, it's great stuff ! :)
@@zeon137 Well regarding music there's "The Aesthetics of Music" which is the oldest one, "Understanding Music" and "Music as an Art". You don't really have to read them in order, they stand on their own. The one I started with was Understanding Music! :)
I'm not sure what atonality has to do with "Postmodernism" but I love Rick's analysis of his piece. There are all kinds of great music that can be classified in many ways, the most important and common classifications being "I like it" and "I don't like it", which inspire people to come up with all kinds of theoretical verbiage to justify liking or not liking something. Nobody needs to justify their taste. I do love it when people, like Rick, who are enthusiastic and knowledgeable about something, talk about specific aspects of the work that they love. That can be very enlightening & lead you to listen more fruitfully.
You really need to learn how to formulate and justify an argument. It Is impossible to follow your videos and this one especially is rooted in nothing other than "I wrote a sick piece and want to show people so I'm gonna use some flashy clickbait title". This is like basic middle school essay writing Rick - point, proof, comment . . .
So after watching this video a couple times and reading all the comments I (a 51 year old piano/violin/clarinet/band director/teacher) gave myself the assignment of composing my own 2-part invention (ala Bach). I was given these kinds of assignments in college back in the day. I did it, it is not great, but it is a lot more difficult than it appears to create something relatively simple that makes sense and more importantly is *satisfying rhetorically*. I think a "fun" forum (I am sure it exists somewhere on the web, but I have been too busy working to search) would be for people to submit their short pieces like that. If anyone reads this and knows of one, let me know.
I've been watching Rick's videos for quite some time. I always get something out of them, albeit, this one is above my understanding. The piano piece just totally blew me away. Hearing notes in there that are so sophisticated, so expressive, wow. Kudos RIck Beato.
Thank you for pushing back on postmodernism! It's been a long time in coming. Postmodernism lost its edge, and it's become a playground for more hacks than geniuses.
Hey, Ricky. Great work. I love complex harmony. . . big fat jazz chords!! I would love to study jazz piano, but nobody in my area is a truly knowledgeable player so I've stuck to classical piano as there is always someone around with decent classic training. I'd love to do modern stuff with the "vibe" of your piece, but NOBODY has a handle on that catalog, just the usual suspects (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc). Their idea of "getting out there" is something like Bartok. They say, "Well, go find something you want to play and bring it in and we'll look at it." Well, excuse me. You're the teacher. You should know this stuff. Enough bellyachin' already. . . .would consider putting together some suggested listening for those of us who would like to know more about contemporary classic works and composers. . . or direct us to a source for one? I'd be forever grateful.
The first part of your piece I could hear those chordal changes being played by strings, deep and dark, then a clarinet sliding in to play that melody, maybe the french horn coming through now and again on some of the more pensive pauses, very distant over the fog covered glen sound of course with the horns, then at the right moment a harp glissando just for a little lightness and exoticism. Very nice.
This is an argument for tonality, not against postmodernism. 20th century atonal/modal music predate postmodernism by decades.
Exactly! Atonality predates MODERNISM as well. I think what he's really saying is that he just doesn't like 12-tone composers.
I mean 12tone and serial music sounds cool on paper, but is often really not enjoyable for most people. There‘s a reason they stopped composing serial music rather quickly.
Doesn’t everything predate postmodernism? /s
Agreed. Specifically, it's an example of exploring frontiers of tonality, as an alternative to abandoning it.
Absolutely nailed it. Many consider the first examples of postmodernism in classical music to be the 1960's minimalist works of Terry Riley, La Monte Young, Steve Reich, etc. Early minimalism was highly tonal and a very deliberate reaction against the atonal absolute serial compositions which dominated the classical genre in the previous decade. Postmodernism, at its root, IS tonal. Rick, I love your videos, but your notion of what postmodernism represents in music is waaaay off the mark.
Unexpected piano shredding
@@fivestring65ify it would sound terrible
Would you really call it shredding, though? I'm sure Rick could post hoc justify it with jargon, but it doesn't seem to convey any information other than a lack of information. Even within the constraints of maintaining quasi-tonality, it's like a randomized collection of half spoken phrases.
@@VictorTarela Probably. Malmsteen has incredibly bad taste.
@@aitch9053 what you said in your statement gives him credit for creating a post modernist piece..
it's called the piano roll - should have drew in some velocity data to help make it sound like it's actually going somewhere. Also, I thought Rick hated quantization? ;)
What you're talking about isn't postmodernism, though, it's high modernism's long hangover. A number of the most philosophically "postmodern" composers I can think of are highly tonal-John Adams comes to mind as a perfect example-it's just that their approach to tonality tends to be very... unsentimental? It's a bit like Stravinsky's "objective" compositional period, where there's a lot of elegant tonal grammar but it's divorced from making any overt emotional statements, which is the sort of thing that gets your music called "chilly" and "weird" but not "atonal." Serialism and other non-tonal techniques, while at times incorporating postmodern musical ideas (interpolations of fragments of pop tunes, the use of non-instruments like radios and turntables), are a reflection of early twentieth century high modernist ideas about how art ought to reflect or divorce itself from the perceived ugliness of the real world in different ways, not the deconstructive manoeuvres of postmodern philosophy. There are certainly postmodern-minded atonal composers like, say, Brian Ferneyhough, but for as respected a teacher and composer as he is, it's not like he has legions of imitators. His music is too difficult for that. And certainly the roots of what we might call postmodernism in music can be found in atonal-leaning composers like John Cage, but people know him more for his esoteric "statement" pieces than for his serial compositions; to whit, as much credit can be given to the likes of György Ligeti and Morton Feldman, who aren't exactly your typical twelve-tone diehards either. Which circles back to the minimalists, and... you get my point. I think you're conflating two pretty different things to complain about a third, somewhat unrelated thing, which is the relative lack of harmonically sophisticated tonal composers in the modern academy.
You aren't very convincing. Brevity is the soul of wit.
@@natearmstrong8510 If you find wit convincing, I don't think you know how reasoning is supposed to work.
Excellent points.
@@TheSquareOnes if your post modern then there is no such thing as reason. 🤗
@@natearmstrong8510 short is funny
« There's still plenty of good music to be written in C major » - Arnold Schönberg
Yeah, you read that right, Schönberg, the inventor the 12-tone series, said that, and he lived by it too. He wrote tonal music until the end of his life, as well as atonal.
One thing that I believe is true is that the tonal system in the strict sense of functional harmony is no longer seen as the be-all end-all it once was in western Europe (and by extension in America). In this narrow sense "tonal music" is dead, not because it's no longer possible to write tonal music, but because the expectations of the listeners are no longer shaped only by it. We do not anymore feel strongly when we listen to music that there must always be a tension-resolution cycle following all the rules and leading us back to the tone where we started.
I'm not sure what the relationship to post-modernism is. Schönberg lived and died before the hey-days of post-modernism. Post-modernism is a term that never had a very clear meaning but it's associated with people who were prominent in the late 60s and the 70s, twenty years after Schönberg had died. And for that matter, Schönberg's heirs direct (Webern) or indirect (Boulez), do not belong to post-modernism. They pretty obviously belong to modernism, the artistic movement that was prominent in the 1930s and still in the 1950s...
I'm honestly not sure what music could qualify as "post-modern", maybe spectral stuff ? Stockhausen, perhaps ? In any case, rants about how "Why X music sucks" are never very convincing.
It's about attitude. The postmodern "philosophical" view is that "there's no such thing as tonal music" and that "all music is of equal value".
For a "normal" person (which you sound like), this doesn't make sense, at which point, a postmodernist would say "that's because you're not smart enough to understand", when the truth (which they conveniently deny the existence of), is that you ARE right; it doesn't make sense.
Rick's point here is that it is possible - necessary, even - to create new, innovative music through *understanding* the orthodoxy and using, even selectively.
To a postmodernist, learning about the orthodoxy is bad as it "taints" your thinking; you should just mash the keys randomly and call the result music, because you *feel* it is music.
Again, to anyone with any sense, this is ludicrous, but that's really what they claim to believe.
@@edwardcullen1739 Honestly this version of postmodernism sounds like a bit of a strawman.
While it's true that post-modernism is often accused of being strongly relativist (about the aesthetics but also about morals), I don't think post-modernism in itself questions the idea of following one's own sensibility.
That is, relativism is arguably an argument that's on the side of people who want to follow their artistic sensibility, and do not care if it breaks preestablished rules. But that's not a dimension that was new in post-modernism. I think the great difference between modern art and post-modern art is a greater attention paid to the medium and using the art itself to discuss the medium. E.g in "modern" stories you get characters discussing the human condition, in "post-modern" stories you get characters discussing their condition of characters in a story.
Under this angle, "post-modern music" would be music that makes a commentary about music (if that's possible), not music that breaks the rules of music.
@@TyphonBaalHammon I'm talking about philosophical postmodernism, which I thought was the subject here, in so much how philosophical postmodernist attitudes are leading composers down blind alleys where no good music resides.
It only *sounds* like a straw man, because philosophical postmodernism is so ludicrous.
Philosophical postmodernism is ENTIRELY relativistic.
You're point about artistic roots is a good one, for the wrong reasons.
Postmodernist philosophy describes mathematics and science as tyrannical because they are imposed, which is a complete misunderstanding of reality.
Science and mathematics are DESCRIPTIVE and the only imposition is that made by the natural world, not by man.
Postmodernist philosophy rejects any systematic description of the world around us and so rejects a systematic approach to the creation of art, which is what Rick is taking about.
That's wrong. The beauty and power of tonal music is that we still do expect it the same way that we expect the universe to continue to follow Newton's Laws. We may know better, but we just can't help ourselves.
@@soulscanner66 We expect it when we listen to it, but we do not have a feeling of necessity when we listen to other stuff. In more than a century, there has been plenty of beautiful and expressive music that did not follow the rules of traditional tonality, whether in western classical music, in jazz, or in later styles. Of course when we listen to Mozart, we can expect resolutions, in fact we often see them coming from a mile away, but that's because it's Mozart's style. But when we don't get them, whether in a Debussy prelude or in a Schönberg concerto, or in a Xenakis piece, or in an Eagles song or whatever, we do not feel cheated. I'm right in the middle of listening to Schnittke's Concerto Grosso #1, which contains plenty of chords that would have sounded alien to people 200 years ago. (Actually, the use of citation in this piece, the way it's written which references many different styles, seem to me to be a very good example of artistic post-modernism, done right)
You should give more examples of what post modern music is. Post- modern music would be more than just the absence of tonality. I often see the avant garde described as post-modern. Is Stockhausen post modern? La Monte Young? Pierre Boulez ? Glenn Branca and John Cage?
Because if this is the case then I disagree. The rejection of some conventions is what has led to some of the most innovative composers of our times.
How would you describe Frank Zappa's music?
The Mothers of Invention are my favourite rock band and Uncle Meat one of my favourite albums. They were sometimes completely avant-garde.
The man was a genius and his catalogue is varied, describing his music as a whole is challenging.
DuckTalesWooHoo1987
That would depend on the era, album, band, etc.
He used theory though, and could write orchestral pieces, while he also had no problem jamming a guitar with the best of them, and do it in many different styles.
Post - modern music is that any sound could be music... If I believe is music well... is music...
@@SimpleManGuitars1973 he was inspired by modernist composers
Perfect timing for me to hear this video. Not just the music, but the words. I don't understand half of it, but what I do understand, I get, which opens my brain for understanding more. Your speaking style is clear and direct. My brain zero's in when you talk. That's a gift!
same
I absolutely adored your piece but I have no idea what you or any of the commenters here mean by "postmodernism." I've studied postmodernism at length in graduate school and in my scholarly career and what you people are referring to as "postmodern" is not that. "Atonal" music was a by-product of modernism----postmodernism would be something like a parodic or kitschy return to tonal music.
Yes, I don't know if he means postmodernism in music or in philosophy (actually, most of that postmodernism is in places like literary theory, most philosophers think that postmodernism is bs). I don't think that he actually means postmodernism in music. In general, I don't think that postmodernism in art has much to do with the other kind of postmodernism.
postmodernism " .... would be something like a parodic or kitschy return to tonal music." You mean like modern pop?
Atonal music preceded modernism.
I thought he was gonna say “sarcasm” or “ironic detachment” or “lack of sincerity” was a problem with postmodern pop music. Bcuz like u said pastiche or kitschy is much more postmodern than atonal.
Guy Souriandt ppl that do like ironic bubble gum like charli XCX and the PC music gang or perhaps Vaporwave with its tongue in cheek Muzak sound.
When you talk about music that lacks tonality, I would argue it's more in reference to modernism that postmodernism. In a musical sense, postmodernism was partly a response to modernism (i.e serialsm). As part of this response, a lot of postmodern music made use of harmony and tonality, trying to re-establish a connection to the musical lineage that came before modernism. In this sense, many film composers, such as the ones you discussed, can be seen as postmodern, as they often reference back to older styles, why also incorporating new concepts. This fusion of various facets of musical history is really what is at the heart of postmodernism. (All of this is according to the uni course I took on the subject)
Edit: tl;dr: you are talking about modernism, not postmodernism.
sorry but in terms of art movements atonality is a modernist trend, not a postmodernist one.
liked the piano piece though. a lot.
Yep, postmodernism in art music is in broad terms more tonal. It means something different in music than it does to other disciplines ie philosophy.
Correct me if I'm wrong but postmodern music was questioning the complete abandonment of tonality from the modernist composers.
Its almost like postmodernism is actually a return to objectivity. Again, correct me if I'm wrong :)
Exactly
It was originally, but that misses the point. Look at the wiki page for postmodern music at the examples of postmodern composers. Berio, Boulez, Carter, Xenakis etc are all there along with the minimalists like Reich etc.
@@australiancomposer Did you even read the wiki page. They say they just list random composers that are from the same time period (after 1900).
Without having much of a clue about what is happening on a music theory level, I can say that I really like this. It sounds good to me.
This is wrong, atonal music predates postmodernism by many decades, atonal music is simply an exploration of the outer limits of music beyond tonality, I don't see the problem with people both exploring tonality and atonality and some composers have benefitted from learning and experimenting in atlonal music in a way that informed their tonal compositions greatly and expanded their horizons.
lolroflmaoization atonal music existed before only in chaotic and I enlightened sound making. Music is art not just banging and blowing
@@SspaceB the fact that you think atonal music is just banging and blowing demonstrates your ignorance of the theory behind it, a lot of atonal music has very complex structures behind it, the idea is the structures aren't confined to traditional tonality, for example there had been brilliant a tonal music that depends on structures created out of hexachordal combinatoriality, so like lacking a shared ptch class between hexachords and it's transpositions.
@Stephen he specifically talks about atonal music so your point is moot, plus there's absolutely no cause for worry the amount of atonal music and even "post modern" music relative in proportion to all music produced is decreasing, im far more concerned with stagnation in pop music rather than "postmodern music" taking over, and even this isn't hugely worrying and there is always good music being produced somewhere
This was one of the finest vids of yours I’ve seen. Content, theoretical perspective, music examples, multi-camera work all kept me riveted. Liked the landscape stuff, too. You made your point well despite not spending (needless) time on analysis of postmodern anything. Clearly something you gave a lot of thought to. Great seeing the production getting tighter. Loved your composition, too!
Doesn't postmodernism mean something different in music? Modernism in music is less defined tonality whereas postmodern classical is a return to more tonality. Correct me if I'm wrong?
You are totally correct. I was expecting him to attack minimalism and neo-romanticism, because that is what postmodern is in classical music.
Such definitions become incestuous & self justifying. postmodernism is an ethos, a philosophy. As such it is applicable to anything & in it's essential form. To change it's definition from application to application is decidedly postmodern.
Ricks point was excellent & doesn't need to be expounded upon.
Why beat a dead horse?
@@CaalamusTube Rick's position here is sadly self-contradictory - he blames postmodernism for what is a romantic or 'modernist' conception of subjectivism and then illustrates his concern by lauding the work of a film composer - who is very much a post-modern practitioner (someone who is a hired gun to support a multi-media project ).
To claim postmodernism is a philosophy is to put the emphasis on some defining theoretical genius. Kant/Descartes etc. are systems of philosophy deriving from individual people. Post-modernism is rather a characterization of the conditions under which western cultures function (currently-ish). It's more a term of diffuse cultural/social/political diagnosis than a set of manifesto terms you can buy into, or a club to join.
@@stueyapstuey4235 your comment is bullshit unless I buy into postmodernism.
It's like socialist claiming something isn't socialism. I don't care what postmodernists think of postmodernism. It's garbage.
Like any religious nonsense, it demands you accept it as it's own justification.
"The bible is the living word of god. It says so right here in the bible... "
You're boring.
@@CaalamusTube I'm not asking you buy into anything. Maybe you're ok with the term Renaissance, maybe you're not. Post-Modernism is a similar handy term to account for things that have happened to culture in the west since WWII. To blame all of that for the 'whatever you want, man' hippy-ish tendency in music is either just a misunderstanding or, ignorance.
As to boring, well... value judgements, eh... how high modernist...
Amazing presentation Rick!
And I agree with your take on Post-Modernism. I listened to a documentary on Modern Art and they said that "Post-Modernism is another way of being modern." Which may be true in many cases, but it also doesn't tell you much.
In grad school I felt I had to read Post-Modern philosophy as it was "de riguer." After struggling to understand it for a while, I finally faced a dilemma: either conclude that I was really dumb, or that PoMo philosophy (Derrida especially!) was mostly bullshit. The latter won out. Later I was to learn that PoMo was a way to attack and dismiss academics who used a structural analysis (class analysis) of society in their work. Since Post Modern academics would deride "grand narratives" they are allergic to a structural or systemic critique. So, people who located serious societal problems in the capitalist SYSTEM, they would become personae non grata. So when did PoMo really hit the academy? Well, after the social movements of the late '60's and early '70's. Post Modernism represents the reactionary turn to neoliberalism in the arts. Fundamentally, that's why it's BS.
I don't understand how the title or comments relate to the video
Some advance theory that even i dont understand
@@DARKBassRsR The title was different back when I made that comment. Something clickbaity about post modernism.
On a different note, your videos have come a long way. I remember watching your stuff a year and a half ago and seeing you first come onto youtube. You're doing great!
I think it might be worthwhile to distinguish the difference between Postmodern philosophy and postmodern music. They are different things. Postmodernism, at least in my reading, is about questioning preconceived notions, not about just saying "everything is subjective" (which, I mean it is when it comes to art). That doesn't mean that things can't be bad. I would also say that postmodernism in music reopened the door to tonality in the 60's with the early experiments in musical minimalism. Synthetic scales and serialism are associated more with musical modernism rather than postmodernism. Also, I would say that if you really think that composers like John Adams, Thomas Ades, Nico Muhly, Arvo Part, and James MacMillan don't know how to use harmony, then I think you aren't really paying attention to trends in contemporary classical music. I really like your channel, and appreciate the education you bring to youtube, but I think this video didn't really provide much evidence for your case against postmodernism in music or even distinguish whether you were talking about postmodern philosophy as it relates to music or postmodern music. And to everyone saying "postmodern anything is bad" I hope you don't like the Simpsons, David Lynch, Christopher Nolan Films, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, The Big Lebowski, Slaughterhouse Five, or anything by Quinten Tarantino because they are all easily classifiable as postmodern.
x2
Satire was around long before the coined term of “postmodernism” popped up in undergraduate notepads. Surely Monty Python & the Simpsons are first & foremost satire, especially the early Simpsons. The later Simpsons seem to have meekly converted to the trend of postmodernism in media which is why later Simpsons simply put Homer in silly situations rather than construct a storyline that satirises society or a social norm. Also I would suggest that Seinfeld is satire but Curb Your Enthusiasm is postmodernism.
As for Tarantino, well yeah he is definitely postmodernism but he is also a prime example of why contemporary cinema sucks. Maybe this video could have broached the topic of the use of pop music in contemporary cinema. ✌🏼
Saying that everything is subjecting in art is a very post-modern thing to say.
@@mattkierkegaard9403 I can see your point. But I think we also have to keep in mind that these kind of labels we give to artistic style isn't artists saying "oh I'm going to do the postmodern style", it's the labeling of particular trends in art or philosophy in a time period or following a time period (modernism vs. Post modernism). Monty Python is satirical yes, but what makes it postmodern is the film always calls your attention towards the fact it is a fiction, and absurd, which makes it even funnier in my opinion. It's metafictional, which is a solid example of the postmodern style. Similar to how Kurt Vonnegut opens Slaughterhouse Five by telling you from his perspective that you're about to read a novel. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of postmodernism, (though I love Vonnegut) I just think the term is thrown around A LOT without really understanding what the term actually means. It's still kind of a vague term even among people who study it. I also felt the need to defend contemporary composers from the absurd comment Rick made about them not understanding harmony.
@@@MichaelSmithComposer yeah true, breaking the fourth wall is probably one of the main characteristics of post-modernism. It slipped my mind that Monty Python does do that, occasionally, so yeah you're correct.
However, the reason why i do not categorise Monty Python as post-modern is because of it's lack of self-referencing, pop-referencing or moral relativism. Of course they satirise moral standards but they do not impose moral relativism upon us.
You mention Monty Python being "absurd" which is funny because i place Monty Python next to Eugene Ionesco, who is well known as an absurdist 😀
I'm no music professor. All I know is that the visuals were stunning and the music fit it perfectly........
It also reminds me of something Keith Emerson would have played! Rick's "Take a Pebble"! Awesome!
Bob Gausman I was hearing Keith Emerson too.
I agree with the Emerson comment and I do hear some influence from Thomas Newman. It is a beautiful melodic piece
Had the same thought!
wow as I scrolled down through the comments I kept thinking, 'I can just hear Carl Palmer and Greg Lake sparking up now'. And here I am agreeing with others who think the same. Rick's piece is not unlike something many students in my college, including myself would have written back then in England back in the 70s. No mention here of the great successes of post-modernism such as Gorecki for instance, just a rather limited view on the state of post modern classical music.
Rick's is never going to be remembered as a composer and maybe that is his problem, I don't know but there are many young composers out there, in whose hands post - modern music is safe and will thrive.
Totally agree about this, and I try to reflect it in my compositions: they need to be complex and interesting, but also have a musical meaning that can be grasped by my audience and first of all they need to be entertaining. Imho Entertainment is the ultimate goal of art. Not the flashy and void type of entertainment, but the high quality one that makes your mind feel better. That's what I look for in music and what I try to do with my stuff.
Thought the piece sounded awesome and rewinded the video to check the artist because I wasn't paying attention... and found out it was written by you. Awesome.
Harold Bloom, the American literary critic and teacher at Yale, when talking about literature has said that there is no such thing as postmodernism, and that is the mistaken name for just a later modernism. But call it what you will, it still seems weird to go after newer music. Nietzsche said that a characteristic of new music is that it generally sounds so foriegn to our ears, that many of us reject the music before giving it a while to be appreciated.
I’m at a loss for words. This Beato character is a serious musical force to be reckoned with, recognized. Historically significant. This is a great piece. So many elements, uniquely engaging the emotive AND intellectual dimensions of music. What makes this “song” great? I want to listen again and again. Very amazing. Beautiful. And astounding. Kudos, Rick Beato.
I Was amazed. This was No Smal feat. An Excellent work that well consumed the minutes I exchanged for the pleasure of listening
Fuck N A Yo
Very Cool! Crazy Cool Runs and wild Chords! Diggin' it! Thx!
Gorgeous piano piece, but what does it have anything to do with postmodernism? The video was more "atonality is bad" (which I don't agree with,) and even then you spent very little on why it's bad and more just focused on the structure and composition of your own piece.
If you wanted to write a breakdown of a piece you're writing because you really like it, just make a video titled "How I use harmony in composition" or something like that and do the breakdown without the weird ranting about postmodernism. It makes someone who very clearly knows your shit look like you don't and you just want to show off. Instead of an informative video it leaves more the impression of "This thing is bad because I say so! Look, I'm good!"
Dude, Rick, that piece you wrote was insanely great! It took me by surprise and I had to listen to it 5 times! Great job!!!
A few points. Firstly, the idea you should "stay away from tonality" is usually found in modern composers like Boulez, who articulated global theories and structures which are exactly the sorts of things postmodernism is sceptical of. In fact, one of the main schools of composition one would call postmodern, minimalism, is characterised by a move back to tonality. It is utterly absurd to say "people didn't explore things like modes" in the early twentieth century. The exploration of modes by French composers had a profound influence on the very jazz you go on to claim was a greater exploration of the concept. There are countless composers from the twentieth century who used tonality in interesting ways, but you act like this is hot stuff so you can add a clickbaity title to your analysis of your own piano piece.
Another point is, why should every composer explore modes before moving into serialism? Of course modes are a useful composition device (in fact, serialism came in part out of Messiaen's exploration of modes), but there is only so much time in the day and some composers might be better served by exploring something else. There is a huge double standard at play considering how many rock musicians you consider worthy of study who wouldn't have the slightest idea what modes are.
Usually a fan of your videos, very disappointed by this inaccurate smear of the great tradition of modern classical music.
'the idea you should "stay away from tonality" is usually found in modern composers like Boulez' - Boulez began composition as a committed serialist, and tried to extend serialism into 'total serialism' meaning timbre, dynamics etc. but he had given that up by the mid-60s. He remained - in composition at least - an avant gardist, in the classic Modernist sense, but he was anything but that in his conducting and other public works in music. In conducting and music management in IRCAM he was rather traditional, concerned with accuracy of performance.
@@stueyapstuey4235 Thanks for clarifying, I guess he was just the best example of someone I can think of who thought everyone should adopt twelve tone/serial principles, at least for a time (Schoenberg didn't want everyone to adopt them).
Atonal music of the early 20th century was a rebellion against the constraints of classical harmony. It went to the extreme of deliberate avoidance of tonality, but it opened the gates to a creative wilderness for later composers to explore. The modern composer does not avoid tonality, but neither is he or she bound by a set of rules.
i really like this piece
LeoRealmsc
Agreed it’s superb
Music like this is often cerebral but this is beautiful and heart felt .
I'd like to hear it played on a real piano!
Me too
I really don't like this piece.
If you can, help me appreciate it. What made it "good"?
@@aitch9053 what' makes it good ? on a theoretical level ? because if you don't like it, it's just this way. I won't be able to explain the theory, but i love the tense feeling you have, because it's not major or minor even if you get some tonal feelings.
I think this is my favorite thing you've ever posted, Rick.
I knew this would be bad. Post-modernism does NOT mean you can do anything. It is an extraordinarily complex and losely defined body of philosophical work meant to explain our current state of affairs and critique modernist assumptions. It is not proscriptive.
Anyone watching this or too many Jordan Peterson would be advised to instead read Beaudrillard, Foucault, Derrida etc. If you don't want to commit the time to those decidedly turgid authors, I can't blame you. But don't imagine you actually understand what post-modernism is until you've wrestled with its actual philosophers.
Rick is obviously an intelligent, cultured, and accomplished man, but this is a sad misreading of post-modernism.
@@samswank I'm not criticising Ricks work. That would be stupid. He's a way better musician than I could ever hope to be. I'm criticising his understanding of post-modernism.
Sorry, but I'm with the Gadfather on this. Postmodernism is faux-profundity which is a cancer in the mind of the uneducated. If you think it's clever, then you're not as smart as you think you are.
Rick is explaining why PM does not work in MUSIC.
Having read Foucault and Derrida it's no wonder that our universities and instructors who buy into them are producing a generation that negates centuries of thought and study and replace them with relativistic jumbo jumbo. Gravity is a social construct? Good Luck on the way down.
1/10 good troll
He means postmodern music. He didn't once mention philosophy.
Enjoyed the piece immensely, Rick. Music without a frame is not enjoyable for me. Great job of pushing the boundaries without creating a dumpster fire.
The piano piece is a beautiful composition
Amazing piece of music, Rick. Thx for keeping up!
I mean, the post-modern aesthetic is just as valid as classical and tonal aesthetic, it’s just that the post-modern aesthetic is intentionally difficult, and is billed as an attempt to depart from the limited aesthetic possibilities of tonal composition. Post-modernism as a concept, at it’s core, is about exploring how new systems can be created, what aesthetic purpose those systems can hold, and whether they contribute a new kind of feeling or understanding of sound. Whether you like him or not, Cage is a perfect example of this. Reading Silence, he presents a fairly novel approach to composition, taking into account the properties of silence in ways that composers had not before. And lo and behold, those ideas around silence we’re picked up by tonal composer Toru Takemitsu in his own compositions.
The world is a better, more artistically enriched place because of John Cage's work. You don't have to like it, I certainly don't. But I appreciate that there was someone out there creating that kind of art and testing the limits of what people considered music, or art, or value, in the first place.
Totally agree. The purpose of post-modernism (in any field) isn't to say known patterns *should* be replaced, but to show that they *could* and open up for creativity
Much of post modern music is tonal. It's a bad video
post modern music sounds like ass.
have you heard of jordan peterson
post-modernism isn't just about exploration
When I first listened to the piece, I thought about half of it was pretty good. That is, it shined in a number of places and then diminished in interest with various keyboard noodlings. On the second listen, it grew on me quite strongly. The parts I thought good the first time around, struck me as beautiful the second time. The parts I felt were loose noodling and imposed rapid fire sections began to appear as lead-ins and ties for the richer parts and became a greater whole.
The first listening told me I wouldn't care to hear it again for pleasure, as something on a playlist I regularly enjoyed. The second listening told me that I liked it very much and it could be part of a repertoire of new music I really liked to hear again and again.
Kudos, Rick. It appears you are a real composer of music people want to hear.
Yes!! Thomas Newman is amazing! The Lemony Snicket score is one of my favorites. And your piece reminds me of the timeline of a human life. Slow parts with parts that feel like we're living in dog years :)
The piano piece is full of intent and compelling ideas. I’d wear it! Regarding postmodernism, I don’t care for its license for meaningless posturing in the Arts; if you’ve got nothing to say, don’t say it. As always, love your work Rick and get that album of your composition out into the world. Cheers bro’.
You don't really explain why postmodernism in music is bad, you just did an analysis of your composition. Postmodernism doesn't equate with abandoning equally tempered tonality and harmonic conventions per se. Alfred Schnittke and Wolfgang Mitterer are examples of postmodern composers whose compositions are characterized as referencing and juxtaposing with contemporary aesthetics. There are also composers like Einojuhani Rautavaara who meld post-romanticism, neo-classicism with modernism, which arguably a form of postmodernism.
he said it at he beginning. postmodernism in music is bad because it's A tonal. there's no direction, just random note playing, unpredictable 'noise', if the player doesn't know what he's playing, where he's going and how he got there, then it will sound like crap.
Not all postmodern music atonal. Postmodernist music was by and large a reaction against atonality and dodecophony. 'Noise' is a very subjective term and shouldn't really be applicable to atonal music.
@@TheGBPM Free atonality and serialism are high modernist concepts, though, not postmodernist in either the artistic or philosophical sense.
I'm experimenting with modes constantly in my investigation of Hebrew cantillation- which by the way, seems to be the origin of the Spaghetti Western style of music! Replace vocals with instrumentals, and Torah chant = the Old West hahaha
Rick, I really admire you, but there are a couple of things I need to say on this topic.
As a classical trained student of composition, I must say that teachers were a lot more close minded on musical language, but those were the years of the new complexity, nowaday teachers are a lot more open to tonaliy, as long as it is not merely an imitation of mozart or doesn't have anything personal.
I liked your piece, but with all respect, harmony isn't everything in music! In order to give unity and variety to your piece you need to have some guidelines. Beethoven wasn't a great melodist, and his harmonies wete pretty innovating, but have you checked his process of developing? Check out his piano sonatas and analyze them, not the harmony, but the motivic development. We as classical contemporary composers are taught with those masterpieces how the music can be organic in this way, and if you study them, a lot of contemporary classical composers wrote with this framework. Messiaen, Stockhausen, Varesse, Ligeti, Cage.
That's my only problem with jazz musicians, their harmonies are great, beautiful, haunting, and their improvisations are very playful, but that's not all there is!
Bryan Yep Bethoven is not a great melodist?
9th symphony
Für elise
Piano sonata no.8 II
Violin concerto no.5
5th symphony (one of the most famous melodies of all time)
7th symphony II
Piano sonata no.1
Bryan Yep *was
@@JT-jt2id 5th symphony is one of the most famous, but it's really a 'great' melody? compared to Haydn's, Mozart's or Schubert's? Bryan is not saying that as an insult, Beethoven himself said that about his melodies, they are most of the time simplistic and even boring if you take them off the piece.
@@JT-jt2id Being famous doesn't make them great. Take Beethoven's melodies, strip them from their rich harmonies, their complex counterpoints, and their sophisticated developments, and compare them to some of Mozart's melodies or arias (for example).
Beethoven was one of the greatest composers of all time, and the most revolutionary of its time, but melodies certainly weren't his strongest point.
By the way, I'm not alone in saying this, many composers and researchers of Beethoven's work have adressed the same topic.
Bryan Yep Yes they are simple. And they're beutiful
And you cannot look at a melody in isolation. What makes a great melody is its syntax, its rise and fall in relation to a harmony.
Bachs melodies work in isolation because they tend to be compund melodies (and they don't exactly tend to be aria material), but mozart's and bethoven's and haydn's and schubert and Liszts and bellinis etc's melodies are made by their harmony.
And perhaps melodies become famous for a reason.
And simplistic? What mozart's melodies aren't?
He just hides it better
I'm blown away by the piano piece... had no idea you could play. Amazing.
What does Eb Q mean as a chord structure?
Eb quartal, as in harmony in fourths: Eb-Ab-Db
@@Ribbonium Thank you 👌
@@DanGulinobass It's in the Beato book! Just sayin' ;)
Great discussion, Rick. My training is classical. When I compose I rarely do anything tonal these days.
I absolutely use knowledge of tonal theory to inform my decisions in breaking and bending traditional harmonic rules.
I hate when people say you don't need to know theory to make non-tonal music. I just don't see how it doesn't make it easier to know the total theory if you want to break those rules.
I'm happy I can watch high quality educational videos on youtube nowadays, thanks Rick
Rick, I just like you. You are so well-rounded and all of your videos teach. Keep up the great work!
The idea of postmodernism exists because most ideas have already been mined, so people are naturally looking to see if there is anything else. However, it's like doing a search of your couch cushions for change to make the rent; it doesn't yield much. There's always a reaction to orthodoxy like the middle ages for instance. As a result, you get a new orthodoxy, so when you return to the prior form (like a return to classical forms like with the Renaissance and Modernism) it feels new and fresh. Music is just riding that same roller coaster.
David Gillette this 100%
Rick, you've clearly stepped up the audio production quality and it sounds GREAT! Love all your vids!
And, OMG, the piano sample is AMAZING!
I don’t mind the postmodern notion that there are a nearly infinite amount of ways to interpret something. I think that’s just a truism. It’s when they take that extra leap of “therefore, one isn’t better than another” that screws stuff up. This belittling of the idea of a standard is very regressive. I agree with Rick here 100%.
that's not actually true though, postmodernism is almost all about finding new ways to assess quality hence critical theory etc.
Torc Handsomeson I don’t see how your comment contradicts mine. Finding new ways to assess quality sounds like a very worthwhile and interesting endeavor.
that ain't what postmodernism does boyo, even if we assume falsely that postmodernism is a unified and homogenous philosophy
There is right interpretation and erroneous interpretation. That’s it
Postmodernism gets a bad rap for the wrong reason, is more about the thought experiment "what if we had different frames of view", as you say, rather than *advocating* for not choosing one
Some people will be snobby and say something's "better" because it rejects more standards. Which of course goes totally against the spirit of postmodernism which would say that's just another feasible option
Wow, you are an amazing composer. Teach me.
I do understand why someone is looking for a more meaningful, honest way to express oneself BUT being completely random is the opposite of expression. Being completely random is the opposite of who we are. Words without structure would be complete nonsense. Try a postmodern walk. LOL
More words in one vocabulary helps create a richer way to express oneself. The same is true with art.
The best example of what appears to be chaos is nature. The universe - nature is very structured with sophisticated patterns, colors, etc. From a distance nature looks chaotic and random. Closer observation, nature purpose is very clear.
I actually enjoy it! Thanks for sharing!
Mr Beato, massive fan of the channel - you're amazing at making musical theory accessible! That said this video is fundamentally misrepresenting post-modernism in a way that betrays your musical theory: post-modernism is a critical lens on modern narrative of philosophy, which might be why you felt the grand idea was a rejection of 'expert analysis' of basic music theory.
But it's more a rejection of, to translate, the idea that ionian mode is 'pure' while mixylodian is 'wrong' - post-modernism is better understood as an endorsement of jazz's experimentation vs. the 'popular music' endorsement of what's considered 'acceptable composition.' It's a rough comparison but that's more because post-modernism is, almost by design, too varied to nail down in a musical sphere.
I prefer John William's style over Hans Zimmer's.
I cant choose between memoirs of a geisha and lion king. But I like the aggression in zimmer more.
For me, they're both great in their own special way.
You're dead to me...
Just kidding, I love them both. Williams is king of the older orchestral scoring style.
Absolutely beautifully played and explained Rick! Gotta be in contention for the best music video of 2018 no matter what instrument you play!!!
Rick, you have some very good content in your channel, but I think you're getting a couple of things wrong when you talk about this kind of things. In this case:
1) in your piece there are tonal elements (i. e. triadic chords with added sounds), but it's not tonal since they follow no syntax. It's an example of chromatic harmony, it's been used since postromanticism or impressionism.
2) and more important, your piece is a perfect example of Post-Modernism. You take things from here and there (which have been already used a million times in other periods and other places) and you put them together only because you like them and they're at your disposal.
I'm not saying you can't write music like that if you feel like, I'm just saying you're confusing terms here.
Actually you don’t know what you are talking about but nobody ever tells that you because they think it won’t matter. Sorry my friend.
Thanks for the enlightment, I’m gonna give all my degrees back and forget all I’ve read about the subject. Maybe you should make a video actually speaking about Modernism and Post-Modernism so we The Ignorant Mass can learn something from you.
Thanks for this great video Rick! You know it’s great when you have to keep watching it multiple times. Your piece is unbelievably addictive!
11:08 that is so keith jarrett i love those chords
Some Chick in there too :)
@@acevaptsarov8410 The song reminds me of "Calling You" by Bob Telson.
@@acevaptsarov8410 yeah absolutely
From the perspective of a guy like me (I know only *some* music theory), it seems as though disjointed & manic rhythms, mixed with whacky dissonance are the hallmarks of this stuff. Basically, if a broad audience can't tell if you're "playing it wrong", you've nailed it!
Thanks as always Rick for “levelling me up“ every time I watch one of your videos!
Oh, and about JP... He keeps frustrating me by making sense... He's got me rolling my eyes at myself every time I agree with something he says... I honestly don't know which way I lean as of this exact moment in time!
Badass Rick!!! Love the music video too, reminds me of Keith Emerson
Yes, specially the Trilogy album. I wonder if it was rick playing?
YES! Listen to Keith Emerson's epic Piano Concierto No 1 on the ELP Works Vol. 1 album.
Great video. Each time I listen to your compositions my ears are pleasantly challenged, forcing my Music IQ to be elevated, even if I am progressing in small increments. Thanks for your continued tireless output.
Postmodernism is bad for reasons still unexplained. Rick, postmodern techniques may not make classical bangers, but it’s an incredibly unique movement that breaks traditional structure and opens sonic textures up infinitely. Your piece legit sounded like something Gershwin would write at times. I really was hoping for something stimulating to digest, but you literally just said postmodernism bad then analyzed your piece but didn’t explain where the connection was. Is it because you don’t like music that isn’t tonal? I don’t know because there was no conclusion
TheJumboBurrito My understanding of his video is that he’s claiming people are supposedly being told that the only way to innovate as composers is to use atonality/postmodernism, which is of course untrue. It seems less of an indictment against postmodernism itself.
Honestly I think he just used that term & that title for better SEO and viewership than anything else. I can’t really begrudge him of that if this is indeed the case, since TH-cam is a pretty capricious platform.
Substance D I just hate how the comments have become a bashing of one of the most influential movements on today’s youth and the direction of society. They think it’s about taking value out of everything but that isn’t at all true.
TheJumboBurrito
I understand, and totally agree with you! I would guess that >99% of people talking about postmodernism on the internet don’t have any understanding of what it is outside of what JBP told them.
@@jf8138 Exemplary.
@@TheJumboBurrito I don't know a single youth or person outside of myself and a couple people on the internet that like postmodern music.
To transcend the tonal-atonal argument, I would say that we should never think in terms of right or wrong in music - instead observe and understand the emotional effect created in you by whatever you hear, or arrive at by experimenting. These will become your palate for creating music to express an emotion or depicting something. This most fundamental understanding of how music works is more than a theory - it is physics, which is why it is also intuitive. It will encompass all sound and provide a deeper explanation to all theories. (For example, how 2 frequencies fit together, or how they misalign, is at the very core of rhythm and harmony. I categorise intervals into 'fixed', 'floating', 'compressed' & 'decompressed', and they sound like that because they actually are!) The postmodernist trash you're referring to (and I've heard my fair share!) seems to have been composed by following a process not related to the emotional parameters of music, therefore without the composer being in touch with the emotional properties of their material, or what they are trying to depict. There are plenty of composers who do compose using emotion or depiction of some source of inspiration. I like Polaris by Thomas Ades, for example.
What if Rick does the JRE? dude.......
@@godtoHrD pentatonic scale loving PEASANT xD
Atonality is crazy, man. Ever done DMT and composed? Jamie, can we get some post modern music pulled up?
Simply stunning stuff Rick and so glad you are using your own music as examples. Please keep that coming.
Truth is Subjectivity -- Soren Kierkegaard (the father of Existentialism)
Hey Mr. Beato,
You are truly amazing ! Your ability and wisdom and 2nd to none ! I am inspired . Thank you for giving all of us this wonderful gift .
If wish Rick had done a rant on Postmodernism the way he ranted on Apple.
Y'know what's funny, that's how I found out about his channel. I am ten times more interested in music theory than how bad apple is (and apple is really really bad) but that video intrigued me because I could definitely see his pain especially because he's a music producer. Now I'm hooked.
@@tn0wl361 No joke... same here. I'm a better musician and songwriter because of the gateway drug that the Apple rant was.
@@joemisek xD wow that's crazy
Why would he? Postmodernism doesn't fuck with our day-to-day productivity the way Apple does. In other words, Apple matters; postmodernism doesn't.
Happy holidays Rick. Hope you and your family have a happy new year. Thanks so much for all your teaching and fro creating interesting music. You're an inspiration man. I have learned so much from you. Cheers
I've never downvoted so quickly! Please post more videos on postmodernism, your views are hilarious!
Downvoted? I wonder if it is for any other reason, than that Rick has such an immense amount of knowledge, & understands music & music theory, at such a level, that you do not even understand his statements? How many of his videos have you seen, & understand? I've seen nearly all of them, & could never imagine downvoting ANY. Please, name some of his "views" from those videos, that you claim to be hilarious.
@@matcoddy6097 I've also seen most, I am a subscriber, love these videos, I do understand music theory well. He didn't say anything incorrect or hard to understand in relation to music theory or even history. The aesthetic (philosophical) assertion that postmodernism teaches "stay away from music theory, you can do anything" is silly. Farther "it doesn't sound good" equating to "is bad" is ridiculous. He is starting a philosophical discussions that he seemingly has not fully thought out, I would like for him to post more on the subject clearing up his language or updating his views
oh my, this piece just blew my mind. wtf, it all is so dissonant, yet so fluid, nice.
I'm not sure what this has to do with postmodernism, unless postmodern music is just atonal music. I dunno, is this really a thing outside of music college?
Its the idea that you need to break every single rule or else ur bad. U have to break rules when you need to and thats great but the idea that you have to break what sounds good is bad
dont listen to the other guy, postmodernists follow tonality. atonality is a modernist aesthetic. he doesnt understand what hes talking about. do independent research dont rely on a nonphilospher to give you philosophy advice and DONT GO TO JORDAN PETERSON PLEASE DEAR GOD
The day I fully understand the videos of this channel, I'll consider myself an accomplished musician. damn! The depth this guys goes is insane! Makes me kinda feel more excited to know how much is out there in music to go about. Love and hate this guy at the same time lol
man, that's an incredibly dope piece but what the hell is this video title lmao, there's no discussion of "postmodernism" (atonality is modernist and not some kind of refusal of "rules") and it just reads like you just watched a dozen of Jordan "r/iamverysmart" Peterson's lectures. it's very postmodern of you to clap back against modernist concepts in a critical way, deconstructing them and integrating said deconstructions of modernist concepts into your work. it's almost like postmodernism is good or something
I was always taught - and have always found it true - that if the audience doesn't have a line to follow, you'll lose them. So, for what I value in melody and the construction and performance of music, I would consider your piece well within the sphere of postmodernism.
Learning the theory of music is like reading a dictionary. It's helpful to know big words and many alternatives, but the grammar is how we communicate coherently. If a rhythm can speak to a soul, and a look can spell your intentions, you don't need tonality or words to connect with someone.
That is not a postmodern philosophy.
Dude I love you, this is one of the reasons I left my music degree, it became sooo postmodern and stupid that I couldn't believe.. makes no sense.
and it's true that some people fan of this "aesthetic" have no fucking idea on how to use harmony, counterpoint, orchestration properly and musically, I think it's a easy way to hide they have no talent at all tbh..
anda a estudiar eze
@@hebermax222 anda a hacer memes
atonality is a modernist aesthetic not a postmodernist one
This is like the Rick and Morty of music. It's a good show, but people think they're intelligent for liking "highbrow" humour. "It got science in it duuuddeee." Making music that is unpleasant to most does not make you a genius.
Beautiful compositions of high information tonality. From the title I thought this was going to be more of a rant, but most of it was positive and educational. Thank you for all you do Rick!
Leaving terminology issues aside, it is a really poor argument that because there is unexplored territory in tonal music, there's no sense in exploring atonal music. There's unexplored territory in madrigals, but no need for us to exhaust that before we write fugues, concertos, or pop songs.
But maybe you were being less general than that and only specifically responding to what you heard from your friend? Arguing against the idea that tonality must be avoided. If that's the case I think you have some good ideas, though you probably could have clarified your argument a bit! If this is the tree you were barking up, the video's title is misleading.
"But that doesn't mean it sounds good." Now you're onto something. If you can show that atonal composition never or rarely leads to music that sounds good, THAT would be a reason to avoid atonality. I think there's some great stuff out there though, which is a fantastic argument for having a look at it, even if not an exclusive one!
All I kept imagining while the piano piece was playing, is Rick Beato's son, spelling and writing down all those chords in real time :D Beautiful piece and great lesson, btw :)
It’s pretty damn beautiful
Indeed. Blows my mind the possibilities when you get into advanced harmony like this. Rick should publish a whole book of chord progressions like 12:05, that's exactly the sort of stuff I want to see more often here!
That is some beautiful music! Very impressed
Absolutely f.....g amazing piece! Nice job!
Please write something similar for classical guitar.
Beautiful! Lovely.... where do you get the accompanying footage???? Is that public domain? Thanks, Jim
Sorry, but your analysis and rationale was actually quite subjective. You ended up being post modern while trying not to.
In their world, its impossible not to be because they got rid of all standards and guidelines to properly judge something. To them everything is subject and nothing is absolute. No right or wrong. No good or bad. Its a terrible and chaotic outlook on life and art.
@@misterknightowlandco Who are "they"? Cause that's totally not what postmodernism means
The idea that there's no objective truths, doesn't mean subjective ones or consensus don't exist. Some people have to make the dot on a canvas for someone to make a cool portrait out of a dot matrix. Nothing's right or wrong *without* *a* *context*, you could say
Or to put it this way: intentionally going against all prior rules is a strict paradigm in itself, just like what postmodernism tries to put into question
@@metallsnubben without objective truth, there is no truth by definition. Consensus isnt truth. Its the opinion of the majority. See, the very way you speak puts everything you say into the view of post modernism. You literally said nothing in quite a few words. No objective truth? How confused does one have to be to not accept visible truths in the world as a whole including art. Im not personally accusing you of anything because i feel your trying to change what my view of post modernism is because you think im wrong about it, not that you stated its your belief. "They" is simply refering to post modernists. Lol saying my definition of post modernism is wrong completely negates post modernism in and of itself. If definitions are subjective then whatever definition i come up with is correct because its subjective. Since you said my definition is wrong, you clearly dont really believe in post modernism either. What post modernism REALLY boils down to is thats its a way to cause confusion and if you say people who are "intellectuals" are confused then everyone feels smart when their confused. Its a giant mind fuck.
@@misterknightowlandco ROFL! Well said sir!
The only people who unironically think postmodernism is useful, don't understand postmodernism!
that literally makes no sense.
Hi Rick. For me, this video opens side I didn't know you from. You are much better musician than I thought till now. You something much more than rocker. For few days I'm listening this piece over and over. Great work.
You know I have many videos on my channel about composition like this. Check out my music theory and film scoring playlists. Thanks
Mustard-yellow button-up covering black tee. Not really Rick.
In fact, neotonality or extended tonality and _postmodernism_ are pretty much synonymous as far as academia is concerned, after Adorno. But who cares -- great piece!
If you're interested in reading about music from someone also critical of postmodernism I'd recommend Roger Scruton's works on aesthetics, it's great stuff ! :)
Any recommendations on particular books?
I've been recommended his work multiple times but don't know where to start.
@@zeon137 Well regarding music there's "The Aesthetics of Music" which is the oldest one, "Understanding Music" and "Music as an Art". You don't really have to read them in order, they stand on their own. The one I started with was Understanding Music! :)
I'm not sure what atonality has to do with "Postmodernism" but I love Rick's analysis of his piece.
There are all kinds of great music that can be classified in many ways, the most important and common classifications being "I like it" and "I don't like it", which inspire people to come up with all kinds of theoretical verbiage to justify liking or not liking something. Nobody needs to justify their taste.
I do love it when people, like Rick, who are enthusiastic and knowledgeable about something, talk about specific aspects of the work that they love. That can be very enlightening & lead you to listen more fruitfully.
You really need to learn how to formulate and justify an argument. It Is impossible to follow your videos and this one especially is rooted in nothing other than "I wrote a sick piece and want to show people so I'm gonna use some flashy clickbait title". This is like basic middle school essay writing Rick - point, proof, comment . . .
Thank you for watching Lucas
So after watching this video a couple times and reading all the comments I (a 51 year old piano/violin/clarinet/band director/teacher) gave myself the assignment of composing my own 2-part invention (ala Bach). I was given these kinds of assignments in college back in the day. I did it, it is not great, but it is a lot more difficult than it appears to create something relatively simple that makes sense and more importantly is *satisfying rhetorically*. I think a "fun" forum (I am sure it exists somewhere on the web, but I have been too busy working to search) would be for people to submit their short pieces like that. If anyone reads this and knows of one, let me know.
Love the piece Rick. I'll be stealing from it.
It's 2am here, I understand maybe 40% of what this guy is saying but still, it is surprisingly pleasant to watch this video.
All the comments saying "great" Haven't watched the video yet lmao, it's a 17 min vid it's been uploaded 2 min ago
It's great man !
@@user-to3oh2ur5u they shouldn't even be complementing the video if they haven't watched it yet, no one should ever blindly like something
The video explains absolutely zero about 'post modern' music
@@firstlast-pq1tx you dont know how internet propaganda works then bud lol
I've been watching Rick's videos for quite some time. I always get something out of them, albeit, this one is above my understanding. The piano piece just totally blew me away. Hearing notes in there that are so sophisticated, so expressive, wow. Kudos RIck Beato.
Thank you for pushing back on postmodernism! It's been a long time in coming. Postmodernism lost its edge, and it's become a playground for more hacks than geniuses.
Red Faust AMEN
A really great piano piece, Rick! Thanks for sharing!
Koyaanisqatsi... continued
Hey, Ricky. Great work. I love complex harmony. . . big fat jazz chords!! I would love to study jazz piano, but nobody in my area is a truly knowledgeable player so I've stuck to classical piano as there is always someone around with decent classic training. I'd love to do modern stuff with the "vibe" of your piece, but NOBODY has a handle on that catalog, just the usual suspects (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc). Their idea of "getting out there" is something like Bartok. They say, "Well, go find something you want to play and bring it in and we'll look at it." Well, excuse me. You're the teacher. You should know this stuff. Enough bellyachin' already. . . .would consider putting together some suggested listening for those of us who would like to know more about contemporary classic works and composers. . . or direct us to a source for one? I'd be forever grateful.
Totally agree man
The first part of your piece I could hear those chordal changes being played by strings, deep and dark, then a clarinet sliding in to play that melody, maybe the french horn coming through now and again on some of the more pensive pauses, very distant over the fog covered glen sound of course with the horns, then at the right moment a harp glissando just for a little lightness and exoticism. Very nice.