Thank you for this wonderful video. Even though I am yet to build my 1st layout, the planning keeps me awake at night nowadays and the fiddle yard is one of the components. This video really clarifies things for me. Thanks again.
I love the plan for the fiddle yard and have incorporated it into my layout plane and it's reduced the space used enormously. Thanks to you and your forgotten adviser :)
I've subscribed. I don't have time or space at this point in my life for Railway modeling but I like to follow TH-camrs who do so I can live Vicariously through you. I have too many unpainted Wargaming miniatures to even think of investing in railway models at this time.
Crossing track can be done not from 2 additional points but with switchable x-crossing replacing one of existing points, it saves length on (short even without it) sidemost track
I have definitely heard SABLE before. My father said it all the time to explain why he never collected anything and considered my collecting as a kid to be a waste of time, space, and money. It did completely sink in, and I have many collections, but with trains it is a guiding principle. Great video and glad you've got it sorted. 👍
Charlie one thing ive learned with fiddle yards is, keep it simple. when it gets overly complicated its a certifiable nightmare to setup in traincontroller properly, mine is 2 sets of 3 lines with a point in the middle to join them
Evening Charlie from my holiday home in Spain 🇪🇸 Always good watching your videos. Spending on model railways stuff on impulse is every model railway modellers nightmare 🙈 I’m just the same as I’ve box’s of railway stuff I’ve never used include sound chips lol 😆 Looking forward to your next update on Chadwick Thanks always Stevie 😃
That’s a great idea someone gave you for a yard ladder . Will give you a few extra feet to the Length of it. 👍🏻👍🏻 Enjoyed the update as always.. Cheers Charlie , until next time.
The way you explain the yard layout was great for me as I’m certainly working out a yard now. I work in n- scale and have the room for this setup on the layout.
Stunning video as always. I love the new pointwork, it is such a smart design. And let me be the first one to say that there is just something so beautiful about seeing an abundance of pointwork. It is just so interesting and just trying to navigate yourself is a delight. Cheers.
Modelling stand point the staggered ladder conserves space for more cars . but for easy of operation of trains the straight ladder is quicker to use with less switches to align for at train movement
Good Day Charlie,thank you kindly for your reply.I agree 30 inch's will be just ideal indeed with much more room within the central area,just that 6 inches less makes so much difference .On a tea break at the moment then back to sorting the log timbers out in the correct order of sides ends etc.Be safe,keep up with your own development.I did watched your video on the trees... Carol p/s my kids think i have gone nuts over this major project of mine,,Not to be seen when i wanted help.always they way.
Hi Charlie Interesting video. My fiddle yard is fitted with 6 three way points and I've never had any issues with them, it was the only way to get the tracks I felt I needed on the base boards. I've fitted peco point motors to the to save a bit of money and the thunk usually means the point has changed, I know you don't really like that noise. Your set up looks good but I find its hard to take a train from the up side of the fiddle yard to the down side on mine as there's always something in the way and so inevitably I end up stopping all trains to make this manoeuvre. I'am definitely a master of sable... I've been sorting through my steam locos recently OMG thinking I had 7ish but got over 20!? don't even know when that happened.... I must build something to run them on... Enjoying the videos keep up the good work. Cheers Paul
Hi Charlie, wise decision, but you could at the runover turnouts before the fiddle yard, that way you won't lose track length to store trains and you have access to all of your tracks if you run from the up to the downline and vice vera. This is what I also did, because I always want to have access to all of the tracks if switchin direction. ;)
Hi Charlie, in mine it's with curved turnouts to save space (st244 and 245), then I split up to 2 lanes and I go to 5 others as a separate yard to form trains. This is a fiddle yard for exhibition purposes. But I think you'l get the idea. ;) Picture: i65.tinypic.com/s5k39t.jpg
Dont worry charlie, I've often forgotten many links and names on facebook too, I save everything if I see its of import for later. Great video and I cannot wait for the next one and this fiddle yard is going to be some massive thing for sure.
Hi Charlie, well got around to doing the pin on the point motor, didn’t solder it only something better, used gorilla glue with pointed point. It done the trick so know more pins falling out any more, many thanks for the idea as for soldering. Roy
Stuff Acquired Beyond Life Expectancy? STABLE - that's an acronym that has now entered my vocabulary! I should like to add my own acronyms - KITNEBS - KIts-that-were-NEver-Built! Or how about a DETWENEF? A DEcoder-That-Was-NEver-Fitted?
“Popularity what pressure”! Very good young Charlie along with the SABLE saying! How sooooo very true! Loooool! You’ll have to get a secretary if the channel keeps growing mate! Looool! John
@@ChadwickModelRailway if I ever retire, and as a company director that's not easy, I'd like to do a GWR style dual track main line station with a single track branch in n gauge. It would essentially be a loop, and need up and down fiddle yards, plus two big loops for long coal trains. That design gets it down to a reasonable size. The point about n (see Wardleworth) is that it gives realistic train lengths and inter station distances in a reasonable space.
Hai Charlie, I’m pleased to see my proposal back on TH-cam. Very nice. I can’t wait to see the findleyard ready. Keep up the good work and the interesting videos. Regards from Harry from The Netherlands
Hello Charlie,I was at Ally Pally as well myself on the Saturday,Such beautiful layouts.Gauge 3 very rare indeed so very impressive.as well as the Dock Yard,such detail just amazing just to mention two,didn't return home empty handed either (always the way) .Been so busy on the ground work on the forthcoming base,phew what a major task that was to say the least as well (back breaking to say the least all ache's and pains gee),The weather has been very kind so far.The Tiger log cabinet has arrived,So nice a few neighbour's came to my aid as a few lengths were really a task for being alone.Over lap ends interlocking logs 44 mm 20 ft x 14 ft The Malayan,yes doubles doors but will be fixed windows will have pull down flaps,to make it very secure,Not to sure on the base board width as yet 3ft or 4ft in depth by 6 ft with a underneath fiddle yard,lift up section end by the door,all round running lines ,hopefully a mid center section depending upon space remaining for a turn table,sheds and coal.So if you do wish just to have a peak then please do.Still photo's are being taken on my process !!!...I liked the idea of your fiddle yard.I did have the same problem in the past with a 3 way turnouts,sort of hit a miss situation.such a very long haul to go,before anything starts up and running!!! I did Visit the Hornby Bachmann Rails of Sheffield,Hattons BRM stands.As i am mostly into era's 3/4/5. Well done so far Charlie your slowly getting there with your progress.I have only started so to speak ...Take care,wishing yourself upon your own progress ....Carol
Hi Carol, Yes you certainly have your work cut out but you have well thought out plan. Your board width could be 30 inches. Three feet wide can be a little awkward to do the scenics at the back. Good luck, regards Charlie
Another great video charlie, will watch this again when layout my fiddle yard and look forward to your next video cheers Beeton Hough Junction (Dave C)
Hi Charlie, I have never heard of S.A.B.L.E. either but am very guilty myself. I tend to do this with tools too. Great update and you’re electrofrog video helped me put my layout down without issue other than one polarity switch. I have uploaded an iPad captured video to my page if you have time to look. Not professional by any means but it’s a start and log of progress.... Cheers Chris
I would use a wye and a right for the crossover. The right would be straight to the crossover diverging to the yard track. The wye would connect with the straight of the right and the other to the yard lead
Hi Charle, I have a similar plan however I am putting a turntable at the end of the 10 tracks. 12+ points with servos and control costs more than a Fleischmann turntable. DMUs don’t need to be turned. Only steam locos need turning and a release to the other end of train. This configuration also saves space. Regards Geoff Stone Sydney Australia
some Extra long locos and wagons need 3, 4, or 5 radius to clear the last car on the nearest track, or to look right doing it, some people even use radius 9.
Hi Raymond, here in the UK we only have short medium or long radius points. However, if you view some of my recent videos you will find that my Track Plan and fiddle yard have been completely redrawn. Regards Charlie
A quick tip: those "Thumbs Down"... I learned they are from those south of the Equator, i.e. the Kiwi's and Aussi's... (I watched an auto program with three guys [James May/also a model railroader, Richard Hammond, and another guy] driving/testing sports cars) where they had a race with some fellows from Australia, double decker cars... the Aussi's were connected rooftop to rooftop, because they do things up-side-down... whence, the "Thumbs Down" are really "Thumbs Ups!"
Looks like a good fundamental plan. Easier for me i need a flat classification stagging yard so only 7 switches. 5 for the yard leads and one for a service yard for the locomotive and a bad order track for car repairs
Then use of a Wye turnout (points) at the beginning of the entry to the fiddle yard followed by a right and left turnout will make entry easier. then you can use the modified succession of turnouts (points) to keep your lasdders short. 3 way turnouts are a space saver - look for one other than the variety you now possess. I have several and they are by PECO and work flawlessly.
Just one point if your using under board mounted point motors u might want to put a inch or so of track between the first and second point so the 2 points isn't right next to the other one I use seeps and they wouldn't fit if I put the 2 points parallel like that just a thought
Steve, S.A.B.L.E. is my middle name.3- way points, since time began they've always given problems. E.M. or P4. with their finer profile wheels is the way to go here. Watched a video of the Alexander Palace Exhibition some very nice layouts on display. But a lot of the wagon's on layouts are all too lite, they bounce around like pogo sticks. Contenental layouts alway's seem to run to fast. A nice surprise was seeing a Hornby 3 rail layout, takes me back to1955 and the Hornby Dubilo train set I got for Christmas that year. The fiddle yard is going to be very nice addition to the layout. I'll let you go because that knocking at the front door is to tell you that the truck and trailer unit has arrived with you exhibition purchases. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Having recently subscribed, I’m enjoying your videos and seeing your progress and ideas. One suggestion (following experiences of designing and installing a similar style of fiddle yard) ... is to have the first point as a ‘Y’ point in order to kick-out each side symmetrically, another great space-saver. 👍
Hi Charlie great video again and i think we all are guilty of buying Sable but we say to ourselfs "just in case "lol, great idea for the fiddle yard its prototypical of a few yards i have seen, enjoy Alexandria pallace and we will hear from you after your week away ,Take Care for the noo ...Mac.
@@ChadwickModelRailway when you run digital layout you do not need any insulated sections etc - my last set up with had 8 trains running with 2 hand controllers
@@rizalardiansyah4486 I would have a steam loco scrapping fiddle yard where the steam locomotives come in for scrapping. This would be represented with a vice for crushing the locos and various hammers, saws and a steel block for smashing stuff up. I think this fits in well with the SABLE motif as we often have lots of redundant stuff that is best disposed of rather than hanging around. Always scrap and dispose of materials carefully. Plastic can be crushed and shredded into small pellets for recycling. Steel and copper components, motors, wiring etc can likewise be seperated, collected and recycled.
makes more use sense to x track or diamondpoint at either end and do the original layout running main lines down the middle and spurs and run arounds on the outer bound tracks. Procrastination stuffs us all, however I would would rather look at it this way, i would rather have what I need on hand and waste the cash now in its need.. rather than mull over it then force the purchase then wonder why I didn't do it in the 1st place.. as we all procrastinate as we age.. though sometimes a fresh setof eyes fixes to the mistakes we have created..
@@ChadwickModelRailway sometimes we collectively get fixated on a layout because it way we like it though with a fresh set eyes from varying points of view, that being it isn't easy to fit in a small space length ways to cram in 14-16 tracks where you need enough length to fan up from 2-14 where functionally you need 18 tracks based on 7 tracks east and 7 tracks west 2track main and 2 track spur/runaround outer track.. i would tend to 1-2 track maintenance area on another part of the layout as you don't have the width/depth to support hands between rolling stock unless going to use a loco to fish tail rolling stock out of the yard if you are going remove stock off the layout for cleaning as stands you could likely not remove anything from layout unless you are a good mahjong player.. with all tracks in use you're going to have moving issues..
That’s a top tip with regards the fanning out of points to create more storage space for trains. The only suggestion I would make in your track formation is to have those crossovers from up to down lines and vice versa outside of the fiddle yard area. Presently you will still not be able to get a train from the outside storage line to the opposite line without first having to encounter a lot of forward and reversing movements. Of course, this may be your only way to set up your crossovers due to space and that gap between the up and down lines on the entrances and exits and in that case I’ll retract all that I’ve said and say top job! 😂 Could I also ask one question, what is the overall width of 6 of those storage roads with the current configuration of staggered points? I only ask as I’m planning a storage yard myself and this could prevent me buying too many points and save me a little time in laying track out too if I knew that answer. Thanks as always for the great video. Paul.
Good point & it is why on many bigger exhibition layouts you rarely see trains running in both directions (eg the HST always runs from left to right...unless the operators have 2, which takes up 2 lines in the fiddle yard). There is another way.... Instead of running the main lines through the middle, run them round the outside & allow them both access to a single storage line which accesses all the sidings. You can then run a train in 1 way, change locos before running it back in the opposite direction on the other running line. This was the only way I could fit in my fast/slow line 4 track configuration. It simplfies things enormously although you do lose a little length, except I found that I was able to place my up/down to common line junction was away from the fiddle yard itself.
Hi Charlie, Yes I'm guilty as charged of "S.A.B.L.E". I like to use the excuse, "it's a limited run item" and I may need that item in the future. But again, guilty as charged, I still have a few of those limited run items sitting in boxes. Something I always do is leave the price sticker on the box. That way if I pass before my wife, she has an idea of what my models are worth, when selling them off at auction. I agree, the new design of the fiddle yard ladder tracks make a more efficient use of the available space. To save on cost and if the fiddle yard is going to be easy to access, you may want to consider manual ground throws instead of point motors? Cheers, Rich S.
Hi Charlie, following my earlier comments re problems with this design i.e the conflict in positioning of some of the point motors I have experienced other issues in this design: the points with the flex track curved cause the point to spring up as the track is under tension; it is more difficult to neatly fit the the track compared to straight lengths; wiring is more complex and finally the through line has more points for through trains to crossover hence greater risk derailment. Regards Alan
Very interesting points Alan. This is an issue that I will have to face in the Autumn when I start the build. Only then will I know the exact space available. Regards Charlie
Turnouts can be shortened by selective reduction of rails at each end of the points. Look at the new Micro Engineering ladder set to see how they did it.
Charlie have you a video showing where the fiddle yard is actually going on the layout and how do trains enter and leave the yard. I really like what you have done here and will probably copy this. Much appreciated Les Cliff from Notlobia
Hi Charlie, great video. Just thinking, to keep the length of the 7th track from the right, would it be better to have a Y point on the 6th road where the point is now facing the other way and bring a point off road 7 closer to the end?
Charlie, concerning yourt SABLE principle: ease your conscience either by resolving to use what you have (and maybe impose an embargo on yourself: no more purchases until SABLE-purchases are resolved) or sell it on ebay.
Isn't it Stash not stuff?? Never mind. I didn't see you at Alexandra palace, was there Saturday till around 2ish, brilliant show but a bit busy for me, think I will stick to smaller shows. All the best.
Hmm I don't like seeing a left followed by a right as you get an S curve. If You do left, right, then complete the ladder with rights then you avoid a short s curve. It gets worse the shorter the size of turnout. You can avoid the obvious concern that the storage tracks are now not parallel to the edge by entering the ladder early with a curved turnout. The S curve can be mitigated another way at a cost. If you use long turnouts on the S curve points it reduces the problem. The crossover between the two sides also creates a tight S curve. Consider using 2 curved points as you can straighten the S curve out that way.
what do you consider short and medium? #4, #5, #6, #8? and that new design at the 2:00 minute gives you two s-bends and another one when you added in the two points to cross over.
There is a conflict in positioning of 2 of the point motors that will require a short rail on one of the points to provide spacing, otherwise good option and will be using, thankyou.
Charlie, I’ve tried to copy this plan for my own fiddle yard, however having not used Peco track before I note that when placing a Medium RH adjacent to a Medium LH, the sleepers interfere with each other. Do I need to cut the offending sleepers to make them fit? Perhaps a topic for one of your ‘shorts’?
Hi there, I am a bit new to the model railway. Could let me know why the 3 way points better be avoided- unreliable/ too fiddly? As otherwise the point work wld be simpler & finish early a track space.
Looking to restart my train set after a many year hiatus.... can you tell me a comfortable turning radius for HO... can I use 3 ft table sub or does it need to be 4 ft in width??. btw .... good presentations on your videos....
I know this is an older video but it has come up at a perfect time for my layout. I am not building a fiddle yard but I am planning a goods yard for a factory that will be built along side my freight line. These plans will work perfectly! Many thanks, Charlie! Chris@Wealdhurst.
I often see model railway items listed as HO/OO giving me the impression they can be interchangeable yet they are different scales, HO = 1/87 scale OO = 1/76 scale, how does this work? Might be nice idea for a future video. I live in Australia all I ever dealt with was HO, and that was many years ago.
The problem was caused apparently by British manufacturers long ago. Our track scale is HO but everything else is OO. This results in the axel wheels appearing too close together. Comparing building etc. HO are slightly smaller. This is acceptable when placed further back on the layout.
Nice insight. It’s basic parallel programming that shortens the turnout space. Rather than a liners fan out you use a exponential fan out. Question: I’ve seen modelers in many places in the UK and Germany and the US poopoo the 3 way turnout but they never into what the problems are they experience. Manufactures keep making the turnouts. So I’ll live to hear about what problems are being seen with the 3 way and what analysis have been don’t to understand the problem. Is it just twisted base board or a fundamental issue with the 3 way (two turnouts in one) design concept?
My set is Marklin, so for me the problem with a 3 way turnout or an english cross is the length over which the shoe isn't in contact with the third rail. Meaning the loco won't get any power when traversing most of the point. As a direct consequence thereof I have to carry a reasonable amount of speed through those points. Not something you want in a fiddle yard. I used to have one at the start of my station, because of the space it'd save on my layout, but I ended up trading it for a pair of 2 way turnouts because I didn't like having to race in and out of the station just to cross that point. Now my station isn't as pretty as it could have been, but atleast trains no longer get stuck.
Hi Bob, the Peco points here in the UK are listed as short, medium or long. I really don’t know how this compares to your numbered versions. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, another really interesting video. Just a thought on getting the trains on the up and down lines to move across to the ‘other’ line - instead of two separate points each time could you use a single or double slip?
Hi Charlie, I had not heard of S.A.B.L.E. before, but am as guilt as most others seem to be. On the subject of the cross over have you thought of moving it to the entrance and exit of the fiddle yard, which would allow all tracks to be used for either direction should that be required?
@@ChadwickModelRailway Available from Scalelink. www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Shinohara_Track___Pointwork__HO____Aiguillages.html I have no idea if they're any good. Just that they are an alternative to Peco tur three-way turnouts. :-)
Hi Charlie, congratulations on your great videos, I've watched many of them and have taken tips as I am a beginner working on my 1st layout (N scale). I have many questions, but the first one is: can one use the same power supply from a DCC track to power all other services like turnouts and signals? I find no mention of the power supply details on the packing literature accompanying these items, hence my question. Once again, excellent show! Ganny
Yes I do believe that most accessories can draw power from the DCC track supply. But do you really want too. It could be a disadvantage if you start to pull too much power.
Great update, I've got a 3 way point yet to be installed on my layout, although it's in code 55 N scale, hopefully it is going to function ok, what problems did you encounter with yours? cheers, Dave
Very helpful video as in the layout I’m planning I will be building two terminus stations in a similar fashion. I hate to be so crude but do you have any tips on how not to spend 1000 quid on each end? (I’m hoping to electrify the points, too, by the way) Sincs you’ve been in the hobby a while I thought I’d ask :) -Teddy
Hi Teddy, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Decent track and point work are crucial. Perhaps Peco’s bullhead range might suit. Slow action points motors are my next priority. This can only be carried out once your design is finalised. Turning to buildings, scratch building is the answer, otherwise you end up with stations similar to everyone else’s. Sadly, you cannot necessarily buy your way into great building structures. It’s all about planning. Regards Charlie
Thank you for this wonderful video. Even though I am yet to build my 1st layout, the planning keeps me awake at night nowadays and the fiddle yard is one of the components. This video really clarifies things for me. Thanks again.
Thank you, I’m so pleased that you found the video useful. Regards, Charlie
I love the plan for the fiddle yard and have incorporated it into my layout plane and it's reduced the space used enormously. Thanks to you and your forgotten adviser :)
Mr Bones, you are very welcome.
I've subscribed. I don't have time or space at this point in my life for Railway modeling but I like to follow TH-camrs who do so I can live Vicariously through you. I have too many unpainted Wargaming miniatures to even think of investing in railway models at this time.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. Good luck with your war-gamingz
Crossing track can be done not from 2 additional points but with switchable x-crossing replacing one of existing points, it saves length on (short even without it) sidemost track
Thanks Anton, regards Charlie
I have definitely heard SABLE before. My father said it all the time to explain why he never collected anything and considered my collecting as a kid to be a waste of time, space, and money. It did completely sink in, and I have many collections, but with trains it is a guiding principle. Great video and glad you've got it sorted. 👍
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Charlie one thing ive learned with fiddle yards is, keep it simple. when it gets overly complicated its a certifiable nightmare to setup in traincontroller properly, mine is 2 sets of 3 lines with a point in the middle to join them
A fair point mate.
Evening Charlie from my holiday home in Spain 🇪🇸 Always good watching your videos. Spending on model railways stuff on impulse is every model railway modellers nightmare 🙈 I’m just the same as I’ve box’s of railway stuff I’ve never used include sound chips lol 😆 Looking forward to your next update on Chadwick Thanks always Stevie 😃
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Hello Charlie Enjoy your program and yes buggered up many times , however will continue, I agree on regards just start and sort it later Cheers Tony😊
Thanks for your honesty, Tony. Have a great Christmas, regards, Charlie
Every model rail modeler is also a collector, it's kind of unavoidable 😸
So true.
That’s a great idea someone gave you for a yard ladder . Will give you a few extra feet to the Length of it. 👍🏻👍🏻
Enjoyed the update as always.. Cheers Charlie , until next time.
Thanks Jim, you a strong supporter and I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Chadwick Model Railway
Well your videos are fun to watch and I learn new things along the way . So thank you Charlie ..
The way you explain the yard layout was great for me as I’m certainly working out a yard now. I work in n- scale and have the room for this setup on the layout.
I’m so pleased that you found it useful William.
Stunning video as always. I love the new pointwork, it is such a smart design. And let me be the first one to say that there is just something so beautiful about seeing an abundance of pointwork. It is just so interesting and just trying to navigate yourself is a delight.
Cheers.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. Yes point work is mesmerising.
Modelling stand point the staggered ladder conserves space for more cars . but for easy of operation of trains the straight ladder is quicker to use with less switches to align for at train movement
Hi Peter, Please check out my recent video number 113. It will bring up my latest design. Regards Charlie
very well explained, I have had aloof people tell me to make my fiddle yard that way but never explained why!
Hi Joe, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting.
Great points of view Charlie. I am definitely guilty of this too, and thank you for highlighting.
Shame on you ...... and me too!
Good Day Charlie,thank you kindly for your reply.I agree 30 inch's will be just ideal indeed with much more room within the central area,just that 6 inches less makes so much difference .On a tea break at the moment then back to sorting the log timbers out in the correct order of sides ends etc.Be safe,keep up with your own development.I did watched your video on the trees... Carol p/s my kids think i have gone nuts over this major project of mine,,Not to be seen when i wanted help.always they way.
I’m so pleased that I could help.
Hi Charlie
Interesting video.
My fiddle yard is fitted with 6 three way points and I've never had any issues with them, it was the only way to get the tracks I felt I needed on the base boards. I've fitted peco point motors to the to save a bit of money and the thunk usually means the point has changed, I know you don't really like that noise. Your set up looks good but I find its hard to take a train from the up side of the fiddle yard to the down side on mine as there's always something in the way and so inevitably I end up stopping all trains to make this manoeuvre.
I'am definitely a master of sable... I've been sorting through my steam locos recently OMG thinking I had 7ish but got over 20!? don't even know when that happened.... I must build something to run them on...
Enjoying the videos keep up the good work.
Cheers Paul
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Thank you for this video. I am planning a re-build and this was VERY useful. Regards Michael
I’m so pleased that you found it useful Michael
Great video . I'm just planning my N gauge fiddle yard and you have given me a few ideas. Thanks.
Thanks and good luck with your project
Hi Charlie, wise decision, but you could at the runover turnouts before the fiddle yard, that way you won't lose track length to store trains and you have access to all of your tracks if you run from the up to the downline and vice vera. This is what I also did, because I always want to have access to all of the tracks if switchin direction. ;)
I’d love a picture Olivier.
Hi Charlie, in mine it's with curved turnouts to save space (st244 and 245), then I split up to 2 lanes and I go to 5 others as a separate yard to form trains. This is a fiddle yard for exhibition purposes. But I think you'l get the idea. ;)
Picture: i65.tinypic.com/s5k39t.jpg
Thanks so much for sharing this information and making the video.
Thanks mate, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards, Charlie.
Dont worry charlie, I've often forgotten many links and names on facebook too, I save everything if I see its of import for later.
Great video and I cannot wait for the next one and this fiddle yard is going to be some massive thing for sure.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Alex.
Hi Charlie, well got around to doing the pin on the point motor, didn’t solder it only something better, used gorilla glue with pointed point. It done the trick so know more pins falling out any more, many thanks for the idea as for soldering. Roy
I’m so pleased that you have found a solution Roy
Stuff Acquired Beyond Life Expectancy? STABLE - that's an acronym that has now entered my vocabulary! I should like to add my own acronyms - KITNEBS - KIts-that-were-NEver-Built! Or how about a DETWENEF? A DEcoder-That-Was-NEver-Fitted?
Shocking WR. I’m surprised that you even admitted to it.
“Popularity what pressure”! Very good young Charlie along with the SABLE saying! How sooooo very true! Loooool! You’ll have to get a secretary if the channel keeps growing mate! Looool! John
Hi John, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.
SABLE .....
Shame on you ...... and me too!
Looks much better....thanks for sharing....Jack
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Jack
That's a very neat design, thanks.
Thanks Robert.
@@ChadwickModelRailway if I ever retire, and as a company director that's not easy, I'd like to do a GWR style dual track main line station with a single track branch in n gauge. It would essentially be a loop, and need up and down fiddle yards, plus two big loops for long coal trains. That design gets it down to a reasonable size.
The point about n (see Wardleworth) is that it gives realistic train lengths and inter station distances in a reasonable space.
Hai Charlie, I’m pleased to see my proposal back on TH-cam. Very nice. I can’t wait to see the findleyard ready. Keep up the good work and the interesting videos. Regards from Harry from The Netherlands
Harry, I am forever in your debt.
Regards Charlie
Hello Charlie,I was at Ally Pally as well myself on the Saturday,Such beautiful layouts.Gauge 3 very rare indeed so very impressive.as well as the Dock Yard,such detail just amazing just to mention two,didn't return home empty handed either (always the way) .Been so busy on the ground work on the forthcoming base,phew what a major task that was to say the least as well (back breaking to say the least all ache's and pains gee),The weather has been very kind so far.The Tiger log cabinet has arrived,So nice a few neighbour's came to my aid as a few lengths were really a task for being alone.Over lap ends interlocking logs 44 mm 20 ft x 14 ft The Malayan,yes doubles doors but will be fixed windows will have pull down flaps,to make it very secure,Not to sure on the base board width as yet 3ft or 4ft in depth by 6 ft with a underneath fiddle yard,lift up section end by the door,all round running lines ,hopefully a mid center section depending upon space remaining for a turn table,sheds and coal.So if you do wish just to have a peak then please do.Still photo's are being taken on my process !!!...I liked the idea of your fiddle yard.I did have the same problem in the past with a 3 way turnouts,sort of hit a miss situation.such a very long haul to go,before anything starts up and running!!! I did Visit the Hornby Bachmann Rails of Sheffield,Hattons BRM stands.As i am mostly into era's 3/4/5. Well done so far Charlie your slowly getting there with your progress.I have only started so to speak ...Take care,wishing yourself upon your own progress ....Carol
Hi Carol,
Yes you certainly have your work cut out but you have well thought out plan.
Your board width could be 30 inches. Three feet wide can be a little awkward to do the scenics at the back.
Good luck, regards Charlie
Another great video charlie, will watch this again when layout my fiddle yard and look forward to your next video cheers Beeton Hough Junction (Dave C)
Thanks Dave, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Impressive and I like to make inspirations from the video
It’s great to have you onboard Tom.
I had to apologise to try for typing contact you for whereabout is McKinley Railway, I know it is in Poole region on Dorset, but where?
Hi Charlie, I have never heard of S.A.B.L.E. either but am very guilty myself. I tend to do this with tools too. Great update and you’re electrofrog video helped me put my layout down without issue other than one polarity switch. I have uploaded an iPad captured video to my page if you have time to look. Not professional by any means but it’s a start and log of progress.... Cheers Chris
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
I would use a wye and a right for the crossover. The right would be straight to the crossover diverging to the yard track. The wye would connect with the straight of the right and the other to the yard lead
Yes an interesting option, many thanks.
Hi Charle,
I have a similar plan however I am putting a turntable at the end of the 10 tracks. 12+ points with servos and control costs more than a Fleischmann turntable. DMUs don’t need to be turned. Only steam locos need turning and a release to the other end of train.
This configuration also saves space.
Regards
Geoff Stone
Sydney Australia
Interesting configuration Geoff. They also look mesmerising.
Very nice modeling by the way.
Cheers mate.
some Extra long locos and wagons need 3, 4, or 5 radius to clear the last car on the nearest track, or to look right doing it, some people even use radius 9.
Hi Raymond, here in the UK we only have short medium or long radius points. However, if you view some of my recent videos you will find that my Track Plan and fiddle yard have been completely redrawn. Regards Charlie
A quick tip: those "Thumbs Down"... I learned they are from those south of the Equator, i.e. the Kiwi's and Aussi's... (I watched an auto program with three guys [James May/also a model railroader, Richard Hammond, and another guy] driving/testing sports cars) where they had a race with some fellows from Australia, double decker cars... the Aussi's were connected rooftop to rooftop, because they do things up-side-down... whence, the "Thumbs Down" are really "Thumbs Ups!"
If only that were true!
Looks like a good fundamental plan. Easier for me i need a flat classification stagging yard so only 7 switches. 5 for the yard leads and one for a service yard for the locomotive and a bad order track for car repairs
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it William.
Brilliant
Thanks Chris
Then use of a Wye turnout (points) at the beginning of the entry to the fiddle yard followed by a right and left turnout will make entry easier. then you can use the modified succession of turnouts (points) to keep your lasdders short. 3 way turnouts are a space saver - look for one other than the variety you now possess. I have several and they are by PECO and work flawlessly.
Thanks Charlie, some interesting points.
Just one point if your using under board mounted point motors u might want to put a inch or so of track between the first and second point so the 2 points isn't right next to the other one I use seeps and they wouldn't fit if I put the 2 points parallel like that just a thought
..... and a very useful thought it is too.
Regards Charlie
Steve, S.A.B.L.E. is my middle name.3- way points, since time began they've always given problems. E.M. or P4. with their finer profile wheels is the way to go here. Watched a video of the Alexander Palace Exhibition some very nice layouts on display. But a lot of the wagon's on layouts are all too lite, they bounce around like pogo sticks. Contenental layouts alway's seem to run to fast. A nice surprise was seeing a Hornby 3 rail layout, takes me back to1955 and the Hornby Dubilo train set I got for Christmas that year. The fiddle yard is going to be very nice addition to the layout. I'll let you go because that knocking at the front door is to tell you that the truck and trailer unit has arrived with you exhibition purchases. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Thanks mate, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next. This hobby is like an obsession!
We are all guilty of SABLE Charlie .Every one watching you knows that Thanks again for the Excellent Video Regards .T. L.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Tony.
TY for the video
You’re welcome.
Having recently subscribed, I’m enjoying your videos and seeing your progress and ideas. One suggestion (following experiences of designing and installing a similar style of fiddle yard) ... is to have the first point as a ‘Y’ point in order to kick-out each side symmetrically, another great space-saver. 👍
An interesting option DP. Thanks.
Hi Charlie great video again and i think we all are guilty of buying Sable but we say to ourselfs "just in case "lol, great idea for the fiddle yard its prototypical of a few yards i have seen, enjoy Alexandria pallace and we will hear from you after your week away ,Take Care for the noo ...Mac.
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Very nice video! After seeing 2 videos of yours I subscribed. Very cool railway.
Thanks train rider, it’s great to have you on-board. Regards Charlie
I need to do sometime similar for my staging tracks.
Rest assured William, it’s all in the planning. Regards Charlie
Another great video and layout information
Thanks Chaz.
Great point S.A.B.L.E.. I am guilty of that.
I’m pleased David. You’re amongst friends!
Great and interesting update charlie!! I too had never heard of S.A.B.L.E. ! Cheers Onno.
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
that is going to be a lot of drop feeders and insulated rail joiners.
that might be a video series all on it's own.
I try not to think about it Sparky. 😜
@@ChadwickModelRailway when you run digital layout you do not need any insulated sections etc - my last set up with had 8 trains running with 2 hand controllers
@@QALibrary are you sure? What about looping track? If I'm not mistaken, those loops should also be insulated even for dcc
@@rizalardiansyah4486 I would have a steam loco scrapping fiddle yard where the steam locomotives come in for scrapping. This would be represented with a vice for crushing the locos and various hammers, saws and a steel block for smashing stuff up.
I think this fits in well with the SABLE motif as we often have lots of redundant stuff that is best disposed of rather than hanging around.
Always scrap and dispose of materials carefully. Plastic can be crushed and shredded into small pellets for recycling. Steel and copper components, motors, wiring etc can likewise be seperated, collected and recycled.
makes more use sense to x track or diamondpoint at either end and do the original layout running main lines down the middle and spurs and run arounds on the outer bound tracks.
Procrastination stuffs us all, however I would would rather look at it this way,
i would rather have what I need on hand and waste the cash now in its need..
rather than mull over it then force the purchase then wonder why I didn't do it in the 1st place..
as we all procrastinate as we age..
though sometimes a fresh setof eyes fixes to the mistakes we have created..
A wonderful comment and good luck with your layout too.
@@ChadwickModelRailway sometimes we collectively get fixated on a layout because it way we like it though with a fresh set eyes from varying points of view, that being it isn't easy to fit in a small space length ways to cram in 14-16 tracks where you need enough length to fan up from 2-14 where functionally you need 18 tracks based on 7 tracks east and 7 tracks west
2track main and 2 track spur/runaround outer track..
i would tend to 1-2 track maintenance area on another part of the layout as you don't have the width/depth to support hands between rolling stock unless going to use a loco to fish tail rolling stock out of the yard if you are going remove stock off the layout for cleaning
as stands you could likely not remove anything from layout unless you are a good mahjong player..
with all tracks in use you're going to have moving issues..
Excellent advice Jason, I need smaller hands!
Sable-tooth tiger!
Don’t snarl Chris
Add a right and left for your crossing instead of those last two left hand points, gets rid of that curve you have now introduced.
Great idea, though it took me a while to understand. It’s a goer.
Not sure I feel about knowing there's a label for stuff in my collection. Hmmmm. But I love my SABLE stuff.
SABLE, whatever next. This hobby is like an obsession!
No wonder people discover how to make their own switches/points
We all bring different skills to this wonderful hobby. Regards, Charlie.
That’s a top tip with regards the fanning out of points to create more storage space for trains. The only suggestion I would make in your track formation is to have those crossovers from up to down lines and vice versa outside of the fiddle yard area. Presently you will still not be able to get a train from the outside storage line to the opposite line without first having to encounter a lot of forward and reversing movements. Of course, this may be your only way to set up your crossovers due to space and that gap between the up and down lines on the entrances and exits and in that case I’ll retract all that I’ve said and say top job! 😂
Could I also ask one question, what is the overall width of 6 of those storage roads with the current configuration of staggered points? I only ask as I’m planning a storage yard myself and this could prevent me buying too many points and save me a little time in laying track out too if I knew that answer. Thanks as always for the great video. Paul.
Hi Paul, it’s a fair point regarding the crossovers.
My 12 lane fiddle yard should fit into 24 inches. Stay tuned for proof.
Good point & it is why on many bigger exhibition layouts you rarely see trains running in both directions (eg the HST always runs from left to right...unless the operators have 2, which takes up 2 lines in the fiddle yard). There is another way.... Instead of running the main lines through the middle, run them round the outside & allow them both access to a single storage line which accesses all the sidings. You can then run a train in 1 way, change locos before running it back in the opposite direction on the other running line. This was the only way I could fit in my fast/slow line 4 track configuration. It simplfies things enormously although you do lose a little length, except I found that I was able to place my up/down to common line junction was away from the fiddle yard itself.
Hi Charlie, Yes I'm guilty as charged of "S.A.B.L.E". I like to use the excuse, "it's a limited run item" and I may need that item in the future. But again, guilty as charged, I still have a few of those limited run items sitting in boxes. Something I always do is leave the price sticker on the box. That way if I pass before my wife, she has an idea of what my models are worth, when selling them off at auction. I agree, the new design of the fiddle yard ladder tracks make a more efficient use of the available space. To save on cost and if the fiddle yard is going to be easy to access, you may want to consider manual ground throws instead of point motors? Cheers, Rich S.
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Hi Charlie, following my earlier comments re problems with this design i.e the conflict in positioning of some of the point motors I have experienced other issues in this design: the points with the flex track curved cause the point to spring up as the track is under tension; it is more difficult to neatly fit the the track compared to straight lengths; wiring is more complex and finally the through line has more points for through trains to crossover hence greater risk derailment. Regards Alan
Very interesting points Alan.
This is an issue that I will have to face in the Autumn when I start the build.
Only then will I know the exact space available.
Regards Charlie
Turnouts can be shortened by selective reduction of rails at each end of the points. Look at the new Micro Engineering ladder set to see how they did it.
Yes, I’ve seen something very similar in the UK too.
if you don't like three ways switches, maybe a couple double slip switches might be the solution?
Perhaps I should look into that option, thanks Bob.
Charlie have you a video showing where the fiddle yard is actually going on the layout and how do trains enter and leave the yard. I really like what you have done here and will probably copy this. Much appreciated Les Cliff from Notlobia
Please wait until Friday 16th video when I will explain in detail, my latest revision.
@@ChadwickModelRailway thanks Charlie. Regards Les
Hi Charlie, great video. Just thinking, to keep the length of the 7th track from the right, would it be better to have a Y point on the 6th road where the point is now facing the other way and bring a point off road 7 closer to the end?
A fair point which I’ll certainly check out.
Charlie, concerning yourt SABLE principle: ease your conscience either by resolving to use what you have (and maybe impose an embargo on yourself: no more purchases until SABLE-purchases are resolved) or sell it on ebay.
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Have you seen arial shots of Barstow rail yard in America. Gives good views of the fiddle yard. Search in google and touch 'images' icon.
Thanks for the tip SD.
He who dies with the most toys WINS! S.A.B.L.E. I’m guilty as charged.
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
Isn't it Stash not stuff?? Never mind. I didn't see you at Alexandra palace, was there Saturday till around 2ish, brilliant show but a bit busy for me, think I will stick to smaller shows. All the best.
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
I went to the show on Sunday and is was less busy.
There is another saying..... GAS. Gear Aquisition Syndrome! More common in the photo world hehe😊
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, GAS, whatever next.
Hmm I don't like seeing a left followed by a right as you get an S curve. If You do left, right, then complete the ladder with rights then you avoid a short s curve. It gets worse the shorter the size of turnout. You can avoid the obvious concern that the storage tracks are now not parallel to the edge by entering the ladder early with a curved turnout.
The S curve can be mitigated another way at a cost. If you use long turnouts on the S curve points it reduces the problem.
The crossover between the two sides also creates a tight S curve. Consider using 2 curved points as you can straighten the S curve out that way.
Some interesting points Greg but I must admit that I’m not a lover of curved points.
what do you consider short and medium? #4, #5, #6, #8? and that new design at the 2:00 minute gives you two s-bends and another one when you added in the two points to cross over.
The Peco code 100 Range has three points sizes which are short medium and long. I have revised this Fiddle yard plan completely. Regards Charlie
There is a conflict in positioning of 2 of the point motors that will require a short rail on one of the points to provide spacing, otherwise good option and will be using, thankyou.
I’ll check it out Alan, thanks.
Charlie, I’ve tried to copy this plan for my own fiddle yard, however having not used Peco track before I note that when placing a Medium RH adjacent to a Medium LH, the sleepers interfere with each other. Do I need to cut the offending sleepers to make them fit? Perhaps a topic for one of your ‘shorts’?
Yes Adrian, just snip off the offenders.
Regards Charlie
Hi there, I am a bit new to the model railway.
Could let me know why the 3 way points better be avoided- unreliable/ too fiddly? As otherwise the point work wld be simpler & finish early a track space.
It is just a personal opinion, I have had problems with them but other haven't!
Instead of switches any chance you can use crossover tracks instead of using switches?
I can’t really see how that would be an advantage EP.
Looking to restart my train set after a many year hiatus.... can you tell me a comfortable turning radius for HO... can I use 3 ft table sub or does it need to be 4 ft in width??. btw .... good presentations on your videos....
Please avoid the 3ft width, it will be so limiting. Aim for 6ft x 4ft. Regards Charlie
Looks like one right, and four lefts, correct?
It’s been along time I’m afraid.
But the latest plan is far better.
I know this is an older video but it has come up at a perfect time for my layout. I am not building a fiddle yard but I am planning a goods yard for a factory that will be built along side my freight line. These plans will work perfectly! Many thanks, Charlie! Chris@Wealdhurst.
That’s great news Chris, I’m so pleased that you found the video useful . Regards Charlie
Hello great video lots of good ideas by the way my middle name's sable !
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next.
I often see model railway items listed as HO/OO giving me the impression they can be interchangeable yet they are different scales, HO = 1/87 scale OO = 1/76 scale, how does this work? Might be nice idea for a future video. I live in Australia all I ever dealt with was HO, and that was many years ago.
The problem was caused apparently by British manufacturers long ago. Our track scale is HO but everything else is OO. This results in the axel wheels appearing too close together.
Comparing building etc. HO are slightly smaller. This is acceptable when placed further back on the layout.
British terminology is so different from what I'm used to.
Yes we are separated by a common language.
Nice insight. It’s basic parallel programming that shortens the turnout space. Rather than a liners fan out you use a exponential fan out.
Question: I’ve seen modelers in many places in the UK and Germany and the US poopoo the 3 way turnout but they never into what the problems are they experience. Manufactures keep making the turnouts. So I’ll live to hear about what problems are being seen with the 3 way and what analysis have been don’t to understand the problem. Is it just twisted base board or a fundamental issue with the 3 way (two turnouts in one) design concept?
I have found that our club layout’s 3 way, causes de-railments with multi axel steam locos.
My set is Marklin, so for me the problem with a 3 way turnout or an english cross is the length over which the shoe isn't in contact with the third rail. Meaning the loco won't get any power when traversing most of the point. As a direct consequence thereof I have to carry a reasonable amount of speed through those points. Not something you want in a fiddle yard.
I used to have one at the start of my station, because of the space it'd save on my layout, but I ended up trading it for a pair of 2 way turnouts because I didn't like having to race in and out of the station just to cross that point. Now my station isn't as pretty as it could have been, but atleast trains no longer get stuck.
Charlie, You speak of short radius and ong radius points. Others might say a no. 4 or a number 5. Is this terminology unique to pico?
Bob S
Hi Bob, the Peco points here in the UK are listed as short, medium or long.
I really don’t know how this compares to your numbered versions.
Regards Charlie
I'll put my hand up for being guilty of SABLE :(
Shame on you ...... and me too!
Hi Charlie, another really interesting video. Just a thought on getting the trains on the up and down lines to move across to the ‘other’ line - instead of two separate points each time could you use a single or double slip?
Hi Richard, I could but they are far more expensive than two points. But a good point though.
Hi Charlie, I must admit that SABLE struck a chord - or should it be dis-chord - with me too. I am guilty as charged! ......................John
Thanks mate, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. SABLE, whatever next. This hobby is like an obsession!
Hi Charlie, I had not heard of S.A.B.L.E. before, but am as guilt as most others seem to be. On the subject of the cross over have you thought of moving it to the entrance and exit of the fiddle yard, which would allow all tracks to be used for either direction should that be required?
A fair point Allan but that’s another four points!
Great video. Definitely taking into account these tips in my fiddle yard construction. How would the wiring for this look like?
Im afraid that is still yet to materialise.
@@ChadwickModelRailway We seem to be in the same spot then. Thank you sir.
How about a Y point, into two Y points, then a left and right on the outsides? That's 6 roads isn't it?
Hi Andrew, I take your point. I’m trying to maintain a through fast line with no deviation. Wish me luck!
It could be optimised neven more.
This was one of many interesting options. But it’s still not pined down!
Charlie,
Is the drop line for power different than the drop line from every track used for Digitrax ?
I’ve answered your earlier question mate.
Is there a ‘Y’ point with which to start your run?
Hi Bobby, I wanted to avoid a Y point to ensure a fast straight through line.
Have you looked at the Shinohara three-way points?
No, to be honest, I’ve never heard of them.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Available from Scalelink. www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Shinohara_Track___Pointwork__HO____Aiguillages.html
I have no idea if they're any good. Just that they are an alternative to Peco tur three-way turnouts. :-)
Dare I say Templot - and diy - comments appreciated.
I totally understand your point Fraser.
With me, I’m afraid it simply comes down to time available.
Hi Charlie, congratulations on your great videos, I've watched many of them and have taken tips as I am a beginner working on my 1st layout (N scale). I have many questions, but the first one is: can one use the same power supply from a DCC track to power all other services like turnouts and signals? I find no mention of the power supply details on the packing literature accompanying these items, hence my question. Once again, excellent show!
Ganny
Yes I do believe that most accessories can draw power from the DCC track supply. But do you really want too. It could be a disadvantage if you start to pull too much power.
@@ChadwickModelRailway so whats the alternative? Use a seperate bus wire for ancillary services?
Yes, many layouts have a12volt DC ring too for building lights, signals etc. It’s worth considering early on.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Thanks.
Hows the fiddle yard shaping up Charlie? I'm planning one myself and still looking for ideas
No progress I’m afraid.
Currently working away from home so little progress.
Great update, I've got a 3 way point yet to be installed on my layout, although it's in code 55 N scale, hopefully it is going to function ok, what problems did you encounter with yours? cheers, Dave
Hi Dave, my reluctance on 3 way points is due to the trouble I’ve had on our club layout, particularly with steam front bogies.
@@ChadwickModelRailway yes, we have mostly steam locomotives with bogies. Ah well I'll give it my best shot!
Very helpful video as in the layout I’m planning I will be building two terminus stations in a similar fashion. I hate to be so crude but do you have any tips on how not to spend 1000 quid on each end? (I’m hoping to electrify the points, too, by the way) Sincs you’ve been in the hobby a while I thought I’d ask :) -Teddy
Hi Teddy, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Decent track and point work are crucial. Perhaps Peco’s bullhead range might suit. Slow action points motors are my next priority.
This can only be carried out once your design is finalised.
Turning to buildings, scratch building is the answer, otherwise you end up with stations similar to everyone else’s.
Sadly, you cannot necessarily buy your way into great building structures.
It’s all about planning.
Regards Charlie
Thanks so much for the prompt reply! I absolutely agree about the planning.... at least it’s an notable thing to plan. Love your work mate.
-Teddy
Hi Charlie,
Do you still want, The Hornby surface motor mount. I dont need it at all I'm giving it away for free. many thanks Brian
No thanks Brian.
What’s a fiddle yard?
It’s a non scenic train storage area.