FYI...One thing I noticed about the new Walthers turnouts is that their tie thickness is a bit shorter than the typical US prototype tie thickness of 7 inches. Peco, Micro Engineering, and Atlas flex track all match the 7 inch prototype tie thickness. So, you may need to shim a Walthers turnout when joining it to these other brands of flex track (and other brand turnouts). A section of business card should do the job.
Hi Larry. Peco's Unifrog in OO scale for the UK is not yet widely available. I think there's only 2 points (switches) available and even they are bullhead rail in code 75.
We recently installed our first peco unitfrog and like it very much. But we did find one thing of concern and I don't know if anyone had this problem. We found that the closure rails we so stiff to throw that we had to add another throw wire to the SMAIL. And yes we removed the switch spring on the turnout. Other than that , we love the unifrog switches
On my large ho layout I use the 2' long switches the longer the better as lots of my rolln stock consist of the 87' cars BOXCARS, autoracks, FLATCARS ect. For me the longer switches the better, unfortunately their startn to give me problems, the track is startn to ground out, I believe the brand is Riverosy, from Malaysia, I bought these many years ago from a train show used. Certianly flex track is awesome.✌️ Great VIDEO.👍
I use Peco Streamline Code 75 = 1,9 mm Tracks, it allows me to run NMRA and NEM Whelsets onto a very low hight of the rails lower than Code 83 = 2,1 mm. The Peco Code 83 Turnouts normally using plastic inlays to the Frog which do not allow to run NEM Wheelsets onto those turnouts or crossings. Nearly 98 % of my RR Roster and Car Fleet using NMRA RP25 Code 110 Finescale Wheelset Standards, only. The Peco Unifrog Turnouts still replacing the before built Insulfrog or Electrofrog Turnouts at Peco and will not longer being in production again. In the future Peco is selling Unifrog Turnouts, only in 00/H0 Scale.
Larry Peco Turnouts I have a few now the only draw back I found with them are they do not leave room to add a rail joiner on any of the rails. I used a number 17 blade to cut the ties on the rails to allow a joiner. I wonder why they do that On Atlas turnouts they have room. Not sure about Walthers or MicroEngineering
Walthers suggest cutting iff the last tie and then replacing it with a wooden one after installation. I have always undercut rails on ME turnouts or removed the last ties. I agree that they should creat the mold to provide an undercut on the last ties.
Hi Larry. I have been on the Peco website over here in the UK. At the moment, in code 83 HO they only have right and left #6 turnouts in unifrog and their #6 double slip. They are also bringing out a range of code 70 track for the US market which at the moment consists of plain track, a code 83/70 transition piece and unifrog left and right #6 turnouts. My understanding is that eventually all their turnouts in HO/00, be it code 100, 83, 75, or 70 and their N scale range, will be transitioned to unifrog. This will eliminate electrofrog and insulfrog (except the trainset setrack which will retain old fashioned insulfrog points) so other sizes will become available as they change the tooling and produce new batches. I have used them in both HO and N and for me, they are the way to go. They are nicely made and very robust whilst looking delicate. Hope that this information is useful. Cheers. Steve
Thanks Steve for that info. I knew they planned to eventually transition everything in their line to unifrog configuration, I’m just not holding my breath to see how long it takes. Covid has thrown a wrench into a lot of plans.
@@TheDCCGuy I know what you mean. During the pandemic the factory stopped all production and started making stuff for the health service. My understanding is that production has resumed but they are behind. However they have refined the unifrog points already to make them more reliable. Unfortunately I have yet to see the code 70 over here, I think the market is limited for US stuff here in the UK. Carry on with the videos. Thanks to you I now do my own sound instillations
Larry I have used both Walthers and the new unifrog, I will switch all my turnouts to the new Walthers version,biggest issue I found was the construction of the throw bar, I found the Peco unifrog very poor construction, but stock issues will be a big problem, will see what happens
I don't own any of the Peco Unifrog, but could you elaborate on the poor construction? Peco has had a good reputation for a long time. Please defend your assertion.
@@dundasjunctionmodelr.r-jam8267 Hopefully you got a one-off. No one has complained about the Peco Unifrog that I've seen so far except yours. I don't have any Unifrog - I tried to collect a enough Electrofrog before the old stock disappeared.
It seems there are slight differences between the PECO N scale and HO scale Unifrog turnouts. I am an N scaler and wish the N scale design was more like the HO design and that there were more switch sizes available in N scale besides the #8. Thanks for another great video.
Both the Walthers and the Pecos have gauge problems, especially on the diverging route. You should check them with the NMRA track gauge. The Walthers turnouts are pretty easy to correct with a little point rail tweaking. The Pecos require actually grinding which must be done carefully to avoid melting the plastic. I had to replace the throw bar on one that I overheated. I don't know how big an impact this may have on actual operating reliability. Pecos still have the split frog point that was sometimes a problem on the Insulfrogs. It can result in shorts with wheels that are heavily worn or if the point is heavily worn. I still have not been able to obtain Micro Engineering code 83 #6 turnouts. A couple of months ago I saw an add in one of the magazines that Micro Engineering was for sale. I don't know what this means for the future supply of these turnouts.
I didn't realize the Walther's Turnouts had the sprung points that snap into place. Question Please: Do their Curved turned have that feature as well? I am looking for a wide radius Curved Turnout (about 30" radius on the diverting route) in code 83 and wanted the sprung points to hold the points in place against the stock rails as I do not use switch machines. Thanks and great info on your video. Phil Jersey Shore Area
@@TheDCCGuy I unfortunately don't see wide radius curved turnouts on the Walther's code 83 Turnouts. I may have to go with Peco, but I don't see the Peco curved with the newer UniFrog version, which I do prefer, but they do make the other two versions in wide radius... Phil
I remember receiving an email from a Walthers VP thanking me for the review and at the time he mentioned they would be releasing a large radius curved turnout soon, which could me 1-5 years given production issues in China. I too have a spot reserved for one assuming they hit the streets in the coming year🤞
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks very much Larry for that bit of info. I appreciate it. By the way, I still used a plastic mustard dispenser for my while glue thanks to one of your videos!. Love that idea...All The Best. Phil NYC ?Jersey Shore Area
Thanks for explaining this. You may be interested to know Peco is introducing a new range of TT gauge tracks, lineside structures and wagons. Heljan is producing a new range of TT scale locos too.
@@TheDCCGuy Peco are introducing a new fine-scale track system. New locomotives and rolling stock for this new gauge have been announced by Peco and Heljan. The old TT was course-scale with deep flanged wheels, so that's why it lost out to HO gauge. However, the new TT scale allows more within a given baseboard area for those who do not want to become N gaugers!
Kurt your question is very broad but I have posted videos covering just about every aspect of wiring a model railroad. I also have created several playlists including one on wiring your model railroad with 95 videos in it. so I suggest you scan my video listings on my channel home page and do some binge viewing over the weekend, maybe that will help you narrow down your question.
Beware, the earlier HO #6 Peco Unifrog has a potential shorting issue. Peco has modified it on later releases to prevent the shorting. I decided to go all Electrofrog in HO code 83 so I tracked down (hopefully) enough #6 for my layout before they ran out of stock. Re: ME turnouts, ME is trying to sell the company so availability may be quite limited. Right now the best supply in HO appears to be Peco, Atlas and Walthers (if Walthers can keep up). One advantage to Peco, they are short and would require little if any trimming to get them to fit. Walthers will definitely need trimming in many configurations. The problem with isolating the frog on the Electrofrog Peco cutting with a Dremel is plastic melts when cutting rail. I know from experience. Instead I plan to isolate with insulated joiners and power the frog with a Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer. As for track nails, yes Peco turnouts have the holes for track nails, but unfortunately the code 83 flex does not. So I have drill my own with a PIN vise and try to get them centered.
Hi Larry. Thank you for your informative videos. I’m confused about switches !!!!! I want to install a simple turn out that allows my trains to enter sidings or change tracks etc. Please tell me what switches I should install ??????
There are a large number of turnouts available to creat sidings from Atlas to Walthers. Selection depends on your wallet and layout design. For control you could use manual methods or electrical. I suggest you get a basic book on layout design and one on wiring such as my boo “Wiring Your Model Railroad”. Go to the Kalmbach Hobby website and scan their book listings for a beginner book on layouts and my book.
Hi sir ! It's very interesting that you compare all of those turnouts. I'm a Micro Engineering user for a very long time. Simply because they are to my eyes closer to reality and they work very nicely. The only thing I dislike is that the last "batch" they released is a bit cheaper. Especially the point sprung that is very fragile to fall or not working properly for a long period compare to the oldest ones. I was thinking of making a 60 inches long module using new Peco's Code 70 Unifrog turnouts and flex tracks. I'm still thinking of it. And I got to correct you on one thing : On real turnouts, there are hinges on closure rails. So the fact that Walthers and Peco are making those rails in one piece is not more to prototype...it's only better for electric power, engines and rolling stock to roll on for our models. To my opinion, Walthers are probably the most upgraded and better turnouts of all. But there are certainly not the best looking.
Thanks Larry and once again great job with the videos. Im not sure if this has been asked already but I will ask Re: HO Peco Code 83 Are the EloctroFrog turnouts wired for DCC with powered frog compatible with the Unifrog turnouts also wired for DCC with powered frog? So for example I want to put in a right-hand single crossover, I have a few Electrofrog code 83 RH #6 turnouts left over from a older project, all the Electrofrogs have been wired for DCC compatibility and all my frogs will be powered with the Tortoises. Can I use 1 Electrofrog and one unifrog to make the single crossover?
Assuming you have set them both up in DCC friendly configuration they should be compatible. If you have doubts just set them up in a bench test and see how they work.
I'm in the UK and model the Norfolk Southern. It's nigh on impossible to get Walthers track unless I want to pay extortionate shipping and possibly wait weeks. BUT we can't get the bloody unifrogs either even though they're made here and if we can they rip us off by saying there's no demand. Unfortunately all our US outline specialist stores have closed now 😢
@@TheDCCGuy I’m going to do N Scale. My pockets are adequately deep to spend in the right places. Track, turnouts and switch engines are the place to spend first for success. Thank you for your prompt response and advice.
Interesting video as always. I model British outline here in US primarily OO (code 100) but have a (Peco) 009 section on layout - I generally order Peco Track from UK as it's much cheaper (after 20% VAT removed) even including shipping. Peco availability was dire until a couple of months ago, but now everything seems readily available (at least in UK) I generally use electrofrog but will order unifrog next time and see what I think. (Also good to know the Peco turnouts in US are now a different design to the British ones).
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks for the offer, don't have any need right now. It would be a massive effort to rip up and replace the existing track (500+feet), plus I run a lot of older Triang/Hornby/Bachmann/Lima stock that needs the code 100 profile. Model Railways are always a compromise (particularly OO).
Yes, one of the reasons I stayed away from UK and other European models for so long was due to the “pizza cutter” flanges. I do have a couple of Rivarossi E8s that bump along on my code 70 rail. The flanges are so deep they hit the spikeheads.
Some other things to consider: the Walthers head block (imo) looks better than the Peco, however the Peco "throwbar" is better looking than the fat slab of the Walthers. Also, ME has their yard ladder system, something no one else has afaik. Also, to reiterate what Larry said last video, if you are going to use any of these with a switch machine you HAVE to take the spring out.
Unless I misunderstand their website their flextrack is actually nickel silver with a higher nickel content to reduce oxidation of the copper in the alloy. They do offer individual rails in stainless steel should you desire to handlay your track.
@@TheDCCGuy Their track used to be stainless, and Hattons still have it in stock. As for handlaying, I tried the stainless, and I had no luck. It was a nightmare to solder with my (lack of) skill even with their flux, which I could only get shipped in the tiniest bottles.
Great comparison for where my $$$$ gonna go with the turn outs on my new layout!!! I'll pass on the Pecos, thumbs down, I'm already purchasing the new Walther's turnouts for my layout, thumbs up. Why? The Walther's tie spacing along with the Mico E's are proto in appearance, where as Peco looks to closely spaced and chunky European. Also I like the Walther's & Micro guard rails better than the short Peco.
Not sure about that one. MicroEngineering makes it and turnouts though. I sold several pieces of flextrack a d a number of turnouts recently but still have 3-4 left if you’re interested. Now that they have received a shipment of rail they may be making some.
Looks to me like the Piko are best for not requiring surgery/cutting for 2" track spacing on crossovers and yard design - I wish you had shown how the three brands compare in that regard.
Good day Larry, I would like to have your advice regarding the Peco HO SLU8362 North American-Style Code 83 Unifrog #6 Turnout to use it with code 100 HO Tracking layout. Please advise me.
If available I suggest using code 83 turnouts with code 83 track and code 100 with code 100, your love will be easier. I have done it in a pinch and it looks OK when painted, ballasted, and weathered but requires extra work to get it to fit correctly.
Check the Peco website to see if they are in production yet. They are in the process of replacing the Insulfrog and Electrofrog designs with the Unifrog and it will be a multiyear process.
Hi Larry. I have ordered 15 righthand and 13 lefthand Unifrog turnouts (for my N scale layout) from a dealer here in the UK. Many of the RH ones are in stock, but not the LH ones. We have had a few public holidays recently and these may have had an effect on delivery. I would be interested to know the differences between those for the US and UK markets.
Paul, just speculating, but the only differece I would expect based on comparing their HO and OO turnouts is the ties and associated hardware to conform to US vs UK practices.
@@TheDCCGuy None of the standard Peco OO/HO rail is prototypical (sleeper spacing) in term of UK practice, the new Bullhead rail is, but there are (as yet) only a limited number of options with Bullhead particularly when it comes to points (turnouts). Although the Peco 009 flextrack is prototypical vs Peco N gauge. (but you have to use N gauge points)
Yes, when I started the UK module project I bought a pack of their bullhead then found out that it would be a while before the turnouts would be available so switched back to Peco code 75 flextrack. As I understand it the new DCC Concepts flextrack is a hybrid between bullhead and Peco so as to match their points more closely and not loom out of place. And the high nickel content of the rail reduces oxidation of the copper in the alloy reducing the need for frequent cleaning.
Well, that is a big rabbit hole to jump down! I still like the overall appearance of the ME, but I don’t like the jointed closure/point rail, or the fact you have to solder a feeder to the frog, or the cast bronze frog insert. I like both the Peco and Walthers for their one piece closure/ point rail, and easy feeder connection for the frog, but they don’t look as fine as the ME. However once turnouts are installed, weathered, and ballasted looks don’t matter as much. For example I have one yard done entirely with the old Walthers #5 turnouts and my others use ME and I am happy with both. So for me it comes down more to ease of installation. Until recently they all used jointed rails but ME was readily available so I built most of the layout using those.
Thanks Larry, I can’t stand the joint in the closure rail so unifrog and Walthers are an obvious choice. I think the ties are much better on the Walthers too, not as thick or bulky but most noticeable to me on the unifrog turnout about 7 ties up from the switch ties there is a sharp change in the thickness of the rails. It is right where you were pointing at the turnout at 13:11 in the video. I’m going for the Walthers turnouts for those reasons and because I like the tabs at the end of the ties that you can solder to so you don’t take a chance of melting the plastic frog. Great comparison and great detailed video of the Walthers turnout in your last video.
Off topic question from an older post about Auto Reversers, that I just saw. I saw a video dealing with Auto Reversers, specifically the Digitrax AR1. The post addressed a large loop (though it didn’t say how long) but they connected the AR1 at both ends of the loop saying that with long loops the signal between the reversed section and the Main Line takes too long to activate and can short out? Is that necessary? Is it commonly done and how long of a loop are we talking about … if so? Thanks Eric
I have not seen this video so have no idea of the configuration. I take it they did not say how long the reverse loop was? One thing about the AR1 is it uses mechanical relays which are slower than microprocessor based devices. That might be the reason but unless I know the particulars of their reverse loop and their wiring I can only speculate.
@@TheDCCGuy … the clip I saw was posted by FishplateFilms here on TH-cam, about 8yrs ago. It got my attention because I’m planning on using two AR1’s for two loops in my layout. But I watched your clip of Auto Reversers including the AR1 that only had one connection and worked perfect. On my layout One loop is going to be about 10-12ft total length, the other loop will be more to about 40ft with a small yard within the loop itself. I’m using the NCE ProCab with the 5amp booster. So I’m doing a bunch of research to limit any issues during construction.
Any difference on the depth of the plastic in the frogs? One of my biggest issues is the flanges of my European cars in particular, hitting that plastic infill and derailing.
I remember an article long ago in MR about folks who would grind down the flanges on older equipment. I often considered doing it to my Rivarossi E8s, but then replaced them with LifeLike E8s instead.
Larry, would you be able to check how stiff your unifrog closure rails are? Do you use the stock wire that comes with the Tortice and Smail or do you buy a higher strength throw rod?
I do use slightly stiffer piano wire mainly because my subroadbed is an inch thick and with the cork roadbed the ones that come with the switch machines is a hair short. Another viewer just said he found them too stiff to work with the throw rods that come with the Smail switch machines so I guess that answers your question. Most hobby shops have a K&S wire rack where you can buy pieces of piano wire which is what I do already. Sorry, just noticed that was you posting in a separate comment. I’ll see what they look like.
@@TheDCCGuy It might be a thing to need a stiffer throw rod for the new unifrog turnouts. That's disappointing because you now have to buy something else other than the supplied throw rod wire that comes with the Tortice and Smail. It all adds up. We paid just over $55 Canadian at out hobby supplier for the unitfrog.
Larry; thanks for the review but I am confused about the unifrog. I just installed 2 unifrog curved points in my newest layout and neither have wires on the back of the frog. They work quite well. If the ones you showed were Unifrog, why is there a wire attached to power the frog? Thanks for helping me understand. Cheers
The wire on the frog is a carryover from the Electrofrog design. I do not understand why your Unifrog turnouts do not have them. Are they UK prototype and what scale/code? Are you sure they are not Insulfrogs?
@@TheDCCGuy Larry; sorry for the tardiness; I don't know if the turnouts are UK but they are HO code 100. The product references are Peco ST 244 and ST 245. My supplier (M.B. Klein dba ModelTrainStuff.com) lists Peco curved turnouts on their site - 2 are insulfrog; 2 are electrofrog and then these 2, which I believe the packaging said "Universal". Very curious. Thanks
@@TheDCCGuy Then I don't get the point of the unifrog. With a wire attached how is that any different than the electrofrog? Curious to me at least as to why Peco does not reference them as insul on the package. Only 1 way to find out - I will send them an enquiry. Thanks for your help. Cheers
Electrofrog and insulfrog turnouts are being phased out and replaced but the unifrog turnouts. It is just taking them a long time to do the comversion.
I have a friend with a large N scale layout who used Fast Track and he seems happy with it. My philosophy has always been I would rather invest my time in getting the layout built instead of spending it building turnouts by hand. When it comes to building a large layout time management is a big issue.
@@TheDCCGuy I agree with you. If I ever do fast track turnout, it will be by the edge of the layout were it is really visible. Everything else will be Unifrog peco turnout.
what I like about the peco is the turnout isn't as aggressive and looks much nicer where as the Walters is more aggressive and not as good. thanks for sharing atb Daniel
Andy-glad you found another source over there. I order a lot of stuff from Hattons and Rails of Sheffield and the shipping has been climbing recently. For several years I paid only about £10 shipping but recently that jumped to £25 for a loco from Rails. The exchange rate is another killer but at least they do subtract the VAT. Once my Genesis coaches from Hattons are finalized that will likely end my UK purchases. International modeling can have its stumbling blocks.
@@TheDCCGuy Unfortunately the prices here for new items are now getting ridiculously high and pricing people out of the hobby. That was one of the reasons I stopped modelling British and went back to modelling US. I'm able to pick up Athearn Genesis locos with sound here secondhand at very reasonable prices still, but it's detailing parts from the likes of Details Associates etc that are now impossible to get here. But they're needed so at some point I'll have to bite the bullet and get them. Keep the brilliant videos coming as they're very informative and interesting.
Detail parts in general can be hard to get anymore. Fortunately I have drawers full of them but with the prototype specific details on all the newer models there isn’t much demand for them anymore. Bowser has been releasing a steady stream of brass and plastic details so you might give their website a look. As for the UK models I can’t believe the new Hornby prices and also the growing trend with O scale which is even more expensive. I have found Rails of Sheffield’s pre-owned listings to be very good deals. They only list items that are in like new condition. I recently purchased a Hornby Mallard and an SR Bulleid West Country Class pacific that look like they just arrived off the boat from China and my price less the VAT was under £100 each.
I got my first truck yesterday. Now I can get foam board for my 5x3 ft layout.
Sure wish I could find the HO Code 83 Micro Engineering ladder track system in stock somewhere!! Been looking for months and months and months!!
Tie spacing looks more prototypical on the Walthers
FYI...One thing I noticed about the new Walthers turnouts is that their tie thickness is a bit shorter than the typical US prototype tie thickness of 7 inches. Peco, Micro Engineering, and Atlas flex track all match the 7 inch prototype tie thickness. So, you may need to shim a Walthers turnout when joining it to these other brands of flex track (and other brand turnouts). A section of business card should do the job.
Hi Larry. Peco's Unifrog in OO scale for the UK is not yet widely available. I think there's only 2 points (switches) available and even they are bullhead rail in code 75.
We recently installed our first peco unitfrog and like it very much. But we did find one thing of concern and I don't know if anyone had this problem. We found that the closure rails we so stiff to throw that we had to add another throw wire to the SMAIL. And yes we removed the switch spring on the turnout. Other than that , we love the unifrog switches
Do you mean you used a different and stiffer throw rod? That does answer a question from another comment. Do you remember what size wire you used?
@@TheDCCGuy Larry, no we just added a second stock throw rod to double up its strength
Best turnouts hands down.
On my large ho layout I use the 2' long switches the longer the better as lots of my rolln stock consist of the 87' cars BOXCARS, autoracks, FLATCARS ect. For me the longer switches the better, unfortunately their startn to give me problems, the track is startn to ground out, I believe the brand is Riverosy, from Malaysia, I bought these many years ago from a train show used.
Certianly flex track is awesome.✌️ Great VIDEO.👍
I use Peco Streamline Code 75 = 1,9 mm Tracks, it allows me to run NMRA and NEM Whelsets onto a very low hight of the rails lower than Code 83 = 2,1 mm.
The Peco Code 83 Turnouts normally using plastic inlays to the Frog which do not allow to run NEM Wheelsets onto those turnouts or crossings.
Nearly 98 % of my RR Roster and Car Fleet using NMRA RP25 Code 110 Finescale Wheelset Standards, only.
The Peco Unifrog Turnouts still replacing the before built Insulfrog or Electrofrog Turnouts at Peco and will not longer being in production again.
In the future Peco is selling Unifrog Turnouts, only in 00/H0 Scale.
Larry Peco Turnouts I have a few now the only draw back I found with them are they do not leave room to add a rail joiner on any of the rails. I used a number 17 blade to cut the ties on the rails to allow a joiner. I wonder why they do that On Atlas turnouts they have room. Not sure about Walthers or MicroEngineering
Walthers suggest cutting iff the last tie and then replacing it with a wooden one after installation. I have always undercut rails on ME turnouts or removed the last ties. I agree that they should creat the mold to provide an undercut on the last ties.
Hi Larry. I have been on the Peco website over here in the UK. At the moment, in code 83 HO they only have right and left #6 turnouts in unifrog and their #6 double slip. They are also bringing out a range of code 70 track for the US market which at the moment consists of plain track, a code 83/70 transition piece and unifrog left and right #6 turnouts. My understanding is that eventually all their turnouts in HO/00, be it code 100, 83, 75, or 70 and their N scale range, will be transitioned to unifrog. This will eliminate electrofrog and insulfrog (except the trainset setrack which will retain old fashioned insulfrog points) so other sizes will become available as they change the tooling and produce new batches. I have used them in both HO and N and for me, they are the way to go. They are nicely made and very robust whilst looking delicate. Hope that this information is useful. Cheers. Steve
Thanks Steve for that info. I knew they planned to eventually transition everything in their line to unifrog configuration, I’m just not holding my breath to see how long it takes. Covid has thrown a wrench into a lot of plans.
They also have a code 83 #6 unifrog diamond.
@@TheDCCGuy I know what you mean. During the pandemic the factory stopped all production and started making stuff for the health service. My understanding is that production has resumed but they are behind. However they have refined the unifrog points already to make them more reliable. Unfortunately I have yet to see the code 70 over here, I think the market is limited for US stuff here in the UK. Carry on with the videos. Thanks to you I now do my own sound instillations
@@thebritishrailroader was at Peco today and they had Code 70 US stuff on the shelves.
@@DrDinnerTable cheers. I have started seeing them advertised as being in stock at various suppliers
Larry I have used both Walthers and the new unifrog, I will switch all my turnouts to the new Walthers version,biggest issue I found was the construction of the throw bar, I found the Peco unifrog very poor construction, but stock issues will be a big problem, will see what happens
I don't own any of the Peco Unifrog, but could you elaborate on the poor construction? Peco has had a good reputation for a long time. Please defend your assertion.
@@riogrande5761 I don’t need to , the trow bar is poorly made , I returned two for replacement and I fixed the others
@@dundasjunctionmodelr.r-jam8267 Hopefully you got a one-off. No one has complained about the Peco Unifrog that I've seen so far except yours. I don't have any Unifrog - I tried to collect a enough Electrofrog before the old stock disappeared.
It seems there are slight differences between the PECO N scale and HO scale Unifrog turnouts. I am an N scaler and wish the N scale design was more like the HO design and that there were more switch sizes available in N scale besides the #8. Thanks for another great video.
I would be interested in what the differences are.
Both the Walthers and the Pecos have gauge problems, especially on the diverging route. You should check them with the NMRA track gauge. The Walthers turnouts are pretty easy to correct with a little point rail tweaking. The Pecos require actually grinding which must be done carefully to avoid melting the plastic. I had to replace the throw bar on one that I overheated.
I don't know how big an impact this may have on actual operating reliability.
Pecos still have the split frog point that was sometimes a problem on the Insulfrogs. It can result in shorts with wheels that are heavily worn or if the point is heavily worn.
I still have not been able to obtain Micro Engineering code 83 #6 turnouts. A couple of months ago I saw an add in one of the magazines that Micro Engineering was for sale. I don't know what this means for the future supply of these turnouts.
Great review. Thanks, Larry.
I didn't realize the Walther's Turnouts had the sprung points that snap into place.
Question Please: Do their Curved turned have that feature as well?
I am looking for a wide radius Curved Turnout (about 30" radius on the diverting route) in code 83 and wanted the sprung points to hold the points in place against the stock rails as I do not use switch machines. Thanks and great info on your video.
Phil
Jersey Shore Area
I have not seen them but I bet they are sprung too.
@@TheDCCGuy I unfortunately don't see wide radius curved turnouts on the Walther's code 83 Turnouts.
I may have to go with Peco, but I don't see the Peco curved with the newer UniFrog version, which I do prefer, but they do make the other two versions in wide radius...
Phil
I remember receiving an email from a Walthers VP thanking me for the review and at the time he mentioned they would be releasing a large radius curved turnout soon, which could me 1-5 years given production issues in China. I too have a spot reserved for one assuming they hit the streets in the coming year🤞
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks very much Larry for that bit of info. I appreciate it.
By the way, I still used a plastic mustard dispenser for my while glue thanks to one of your videos!. Love that idea...All The Best.
Phil
NYC ?Jersey Shore Area
Thanks for explaining this. You may be interested to know Peco is introducing a new range of TT gauge tracks, lineside structures and wagons. Heljan is producing a new range of TT scale locos too.
Yes, I saw that. TT scale pops back up every decade or two and then does a slow death.
@@TheDCCGuy Peco are introducing a new fine-scale track system. New locomotives and rolling stock for this new gauge have been announced by Peco and Heljan. The old TT was course-scale with deep flanged wheels, so that's why it lost out to HO gauge. However, the new TT scale allows more within a given baseboard area for those who do not want to become N gaugers!
What does "TT" mean? Still learning some lingo. Thanks!!
Ok I’m a real newbie
I want to lay my own track and turnouts. I’ll be using fast track templates. I like the idea of new electronics
What should I use
Kurt your question is very broad but I have posted videos covering just about every aspect of wiring a model railroad. I also have created several playlists including one on wiring your model railroad with 95 videos in it. so I suggest you scan my video listings on my channel home page and do some binge viewing over the weekend, maybe that will help you narrow down your question.
Beware, the earlier HO #6 Peco Unifrog has a potential shorting issue. Peco has modified it on later releases to prevent the shorting. I decided to go all Electrofrog in HO code 83 so I tracked down (hopefully) enough #6 for my layout before they ran out of stock. Re: ME turnouts, ME is trying to sell the company so availability may be quite limited. Right now the best supply in HO appears to be Peco, Atlas and Walthers (if Walthers can keep up).
One advantage to Peco, they are short and would require little if any trimming to get them to fit. Walthers will definitely need trimming in many configurations. The problem with isolating the frog on the Electrofrog Peco cutting with a Dremel is plastic melts when cutting rail. I know from experience. Instead I plan to isolate with insulated joiners and power the frog with a Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer.
As for track nails, yes Peco turnouts have the holes for track nails, but unfortunately the code 83 flex does not. So I have drill my own with a PIN vise and try to get them centered.
Larry great video
Hi Larry. Thank you for your informative videos. I’m confused about switches !!!!! I want to install a simple turn out that allows my trains to enter sidings or change tracks etc. Please tell me what switches I should install ??????
There are a large number of turnouts available to creat sidings from Atlas to Walthers. Selection depends on your wallet and layout design. For control you could use manual methods or electrical. I suggest you get a basic book on layout design and one on wiring such as my boo “Wiring Your Model Railroad”. Go to the Kalmbach Hobby website and scan their book listings for a beginner book on layouts and my book.
Hi sir ! It's very interesting that you compare all of those turnouts. I'm a Micro Engineering user for a very long time. Simply because they are to my eyes closer to reality and they work very nicely. The only thing I dislike is that the last "batch" they released is a bit cheaper. Especially the point sprung that is very fragile to fall or not working properly for a long period compare to the oldest ones. I was thinking of making a 60 inches long module using new Peco's Code 70 Unifrog turnouts and flex tracks. I'm still thinking of it. And I got to correct you on one thing : On real turnouts, there are hinges on closure rails. So the fact that Walthers and Peco are making those rails in one piece is not more to prototype...it's only better for electric power, engines and rolling stock to roll on for our models. To my opinion, Walthers are probably the most upgraded and better turnouts of all. But there are certainly not the best looking.
Thanks Larry and once again great job with the videos.
Im not sure if this has been asked already but I will ask Re: HO Peco Code 83
Are the EloctroFrog turnouts wired for DCC with powered frog compatible with the Unifrog turnouts also wired for DCC with powered frog?
So for example I want to put in a right-hand single crossover, I have a few Electrofrog code 83 RH #6 turnouts left over from a older project, all the Electrofrogs have been wired for DCC compatibility and all my frogs will be powered with the Tortoises. Can I use 1 Electrofrog and one unifrog to make the single crossover?
Assuming you have set them both up in DCC friendly configuration they should be compatible. If you have doubts just set them up in a bench test and see how they work.
@@TheDCCGuyI wired them like you do fully powered and frogs are controlled by the Tortoise. I think they will, I'll check it out thanks!
I'm in the UK and model the Norfolk Southern. It's nigh on impossible to get Walthers track unless I want to pay extortionate shipping and possibly wait weeks. BUT we can't get the bloody unifrogs either even though they're made here and if we can they rip us off by saying there's no demand. Unfortunately all our US outline specialist stores have closed now 😢
Was plenty of code 83 and code 70 on the shelves in Peco today, try contacting them and there shouldn't be an issue getting track
I’m starting from Scratch. Which turnouts are the easiest to use for flawless operation? I will be using electrified switch engines. Thank you !
What scale and how deep are your pockets? If I were just starting a layout I would use either the new Walthers turnouts or Peco Unifrogs.
@@TheDCCGuy I’m going to do N Scale. My pockets are adequately deep to spend in the right places. Track, turnouts and switch engines are the place to spend first for success. Thank you for your prompt response and advice.
In N scale your choices are more limited but Peco offers the unifrog in N so that’s probably the best choice.
@@TheDCCGuy thanks !
Interesting video as always. I model British outline here in US primarily OO (code 100) but have a (Peco) 009 section on layout - I generally order Peco Track from UK as it's much cheaper (after 20% VAT removed) even including shipping. Peco availability was dire until a couple of months ago, but now everything seems readily available (at least in UK) I generally use electrofrog but will order unifrog next time and see what I think. (Also good to know the Peco turnouts in US are now a different design to the British ones).
I have a new box of Peco code 75 bullhead rail I won’t be using, know anyone who might be interested?
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks for the offer, don't have any need right now. It would be a massive effort to rip up and replace the existing track (500+feet), plus I run a lot of older Triang/Hornby/Bachmann/Lima stock that needs the code 100 profile. Model Railways are always a compromise (particularly OO).
Yes, one of the reasons I stayed away from UK and other European models for so long was due to the “pizza cutter” flanges. I do have a couple of Rivarossi E8s that bump along on my code 70 rail. The flanges are so deep they hit the spikeheads.
Some other things to consider: the Walthers head block (imo) looks better than the Peco, however the Peco "throwbar" is better looking than the fat slab of the Walthers. Also, ME has their yard ladder system, something no one else has afaik. Also, to reiterate what Larry said last video, if you are going to use any of these with a switch machine you HAVE to take the spring out.
DCC Concepts use stainless steel for their bullhead "Legacy" UK outline 00 flextrack.
Unless I misunderstand their website their flextrack is actually nickel silver with a higher nickel content to reduce oxidation of the copper in the alloy. They do offer individual rails in stainless steel should you desire to handlay your track.
@@TheDCCGuy Their track used to be stainless, and Hattons still have it in stock. As for handlaying, I tried the stainless, and I had no luck. It was a nightmare to solder with my (lack of) skill even with their flux, which I could only get shipped in the tiniest bottles.
Great comparison for where my $$$$ gonna go with the turn outs on my new layout!!!
I'll pass on the Pecos, thumbs down, I'm already purchasing the new Walther's turnouts for my layout,
thumbs up.
Why? The Walther's tie spacing along with the Mico E's are proto in appearance, where as Peco
looks to closely spaced and chunky European. Also I like the Walther's & Micro guard rails better than
the short Peco.
Peco HO code 100 are UK style turnouts but the HO code 83 are North American. FYI.
Larry,
Where do you find the sales for the turnouts?
Over the past 12 years I have purchased about 99% of my model railroading supplies from Blue Ridge Hobbies (www.blueridgehobbies.com) .
Larry another great video.
Do you know if Walter's and Peco have On30 gauge
Not sure about that one. MicroEngineering makes it and turnouts though. I sold several pieces of flextrack a d a number of turnouts recently but still have 3-4 left if you’re interested. Now that they have received a shipment of rail they may be making some.
Looks to me like the Piko are best for not requiring surgery/cutting for 2" track spacing on crossovers and yard design - I wish you had shown how the three brands compare in that regard.
I did a video showing how to do that with the ME turnouts, I’ll take a look at the Walthers and get back to you.
Mind that Peco and PIKO are different manufacturers.
@@benbedothu my spell-check failed me on that one. Sorry. But I think you know what I meant.
Good day Larry, I would like to have your advice regarding the Peco HO SLU8362 North American-Style Code 83 Unifrog #6 Turnout to use it with code 100 HO Tracking layout. Please advise me.
If available I suggest using code 83 turnouts with code 83 track and code 100 with code 100, your love will be easier. I have done it in a pinch and it looks OK when painted, ballasted, and weathered but requires extra work to get it to fit correctly.
@@TheDCCGuy Thank you Larry for your advice to me, I would like to know where I find the Peco HO Code 100 Unigrog # 4 and #6. Thank you again
Check the Peco website to see if they are in production yet. They are in the process of replacing the Insulfrog and Electrofrog designs with the Unifrog and it will be a multiyear process.
Hi Larry. I have ordered 15 righthand and 13 lefthand Unifrog turnouts (for my N scale layout) from a dealer here in the UK. Many of the RH ones are in stock, but not the LH ones. We have had a few public holidays recently and these may have had an effect on delivery. I would be interested to know the differences between those for the US and UK markets.
Paul, just speculating, but the only differece I would expect based on comparing their HO and OO turnouts is the ties and associated hardware to conform to US vs UK practices.
@@TheDCCGuy None of the standard Peco OO/HO rail is prototypical (sleeper spacing) in term of UK practice, the new Bullhead rail is, but there are (as yet) only a limited number of options with Bullhead particularly when it comes to points (turnouts). Although the Peco 009 flextrack is prototypical vs Peco N gauge. (but you have to use N gauge points)
Yes, when I started the UK module project I bought a pack of their bullhead then found out that it would be a while before the turnouts would be available so switched back to Peco code 75 flextrack. As I understand it the new DCC Concepts flextrack is a hybrid between bullhead and Peco so as to match their points more closely and not loom out of place. And the high nickel content of the rail reduces oxidation of the copper in the alloy reducing the need for frequent cleaning.
Thanks Larry, great Critique, but which of the Three Turnouts which do you think are the most American Prototypical?
Well, that is a big rabbit hole to jump down! I still like the overall appearance of the ME, but I don’t like the jointed closure/point rail, or the fact you have to solder a feeder to the frog, or the cast bronze frog insert. I like both the Peco and Walthers for their one piece closure/ point rail, and easy feeder connection for the frog, but they don’t look as fine as the ME. However once turnouts are installed, weathered, and ballasted looks don’t matter as much. For example I have one yard done entirely with the old Walthers #5 turnouts and my others use ME and I am happy with both. So for me it comes down more to ease of installation. Until recently they all used jointed rails but ME was readily available so I built most of the layout using those.
Thanks Larry, I can’t stand the joint in the closure rail so unifrog and Walthers are an obvious choice. I think the ties are much better on the Walthers too, not as thick or bulky but most noticeable to me on the unifrog turnout about 7 ties up from the switch ties there is a sharp change in the thickness of the rails. It is right where you were pointing at the turnout at 13:11 in the video. I’m going for the Walthers turnouts for those reasons and because I like the tabs at the end of the ties that you can solder to so you don’t take a chance of melting the plastic frog. Great comparison and great detailed video of the Walthers turnout in your last video.
Off topic question from an older post about Auto Reversers, that I just saw.
I saw a video dealing with Auto Reversers, specifically the Digitrax AR1. The post addressed a large loop (though it didn’t say how long) but they connected the AR1 at both ends of the loop saying that with long loops the signal between the reversed section and the Main Line takes too long to activate and can short out?
Is that necessary? Is it commonly done and how long of a loop are we talking about … if so?
Thanks
Eric
I have not seen this video so have no idea of the configuration. I take it they did not say how long the reverse loop was? One thing about the AR1 is it uses mechanical relays which are slower than microprocessor based devices. That might be the reason but unless I know the particulars of their reverse loop and their wiring I can only speculate.
@@TheDCCGuy … the clip I saw was posted by FishplateFilms here on TH-cam, about 8yrs ago. It got my attention because I’m planning on using two AR1’s for two loops in my layout. But I watched your clip of Auto Reversers including the AR1 that only had one connection and worked perfect. On my layout One loop is going to be about 10-12ft total length, the other loop will be more to about 40ft with a small yard within the loop itself. I’m using the NCE ProCab with the 5amp booster. So I’m doing a bunch of research to limit any issues during construction.
I didn’t use an AR1, I used a Dual Frog Juicer which can be configured as an autoreverser. Super fast, switches in about 200 microsecs.
Walthers looks like way to go
It should be mentioned that these peco unifrogs are HO scale only
What about the N-scale version, they were actually released before the HO ones.
Are these new turnouts available in code 100 rail?
Yes and no. Depends on the prototype and size of frog. Do a Google search for the combination you’re looking for.
Any difference on the depth of the plastic in the frogs? One of my biggest issues is the flanges of my European cars in particular, hitting that plastic infill and derailing.
I’ll he k them and see, more later.
I measured them and the Pecos were about 0.86 mm, the Walthers were 1.18 mm, and the ME was 0.90 mm deep in the middle of the frog.
@@TheDCCGuy wow, that is quite a difference! I was thinking of grinding that down to avoid derailing, maybe I should just replace. Thanks!
I remember an article long ago in MR about folks who would grind down the flanges on older equipment. I often considered doing it to my Rivarossi E8s, but then replaced them with LifeLike E8s instead.
Larry, would you be able to check how stiff your unifrog closure rails are? Do you use the stock wire that comes with the Tortice and Smail or do you buy a higher strength throw rod?
I do use slightly stiffer piano wire mainly because my subroadbed is an inch thick and with the cork roadbed the ones that come with the switch machines is a hair short.
Another viewer just said he found them too stiff to work with the throw rods that come with the Smail switch machines so I guess that answers your question. Most hobby shops have a K&S wire rack where you can buy pieces of piano wire which is what I do already.
Sorry, just noticed that was you posting in a separate comment. I’ll see what they look like.
@@TheDCCGuy It might be a thing to need a stiffer throw rod for the new unifrog turnouts. That's disappointing because you now have to buy something else other than the supplied throw rod wire that comes with the Tortice and Smail. It all adds up. We paid just over $55 Canadian at out hobby supplier for the unitfrog.
I checked and the Pecos were a little bit stiffer than the Walthers but that was a very subjective “feel”.
Larry; thanks for the review but I am confused about the unifrog. I just installed 2 unifrog curved points in my newest layout and neither have wires on the back of the frog. They work quite well. If the ones you showed were Unifrog, why is there a wire attached to power the frog? Thanks for helping me understand. Cheers
The wire on the frog is a carryover from the Electrofrog design. I do not understand why your Unifrog turnouts do not have them. Are they UK prototype and what scale/code? Are you sure they are not Insulfrogs?
@@TheDCCGuy Larry; sorry for the tardiness; I don't know if the turnouts are UK but they are HO code 100. The product references are Peco ST 244 and ST 245. My supplier (M.B. Klein dba ModelTrainStuff.com) lists Peco curved turnouts on their site - 2 are insulfrog; 2 are electrofrog and then these 2, which I believe the packaging said "Universal". Very curious. Thanks
Those are not unifrogs, they are insulfrogs which means you cannot power the frogs.
@@TheDCCGuy Then I don't get the point of the unifrog. With a wire attached how is that any different than the electrofrog? Curious to me at least as to why Peco does not reference them as insul on the package. Only 1 way to find out - I will send them an enquiry. Thanks for your help. Cheers
Electrofrog and insulfrog turnouts are being phased out and replaced but the unifrog turnouts. It is just taking them a long time to do the comversion.
What is special about "dcc compatible turnouts" vs ones used on dc powered layouts?
I could and have written magazine articles about this subject but to make a long story short they are designed to prevent shorts.
@@TheDCCGuy thank you
Both new turnout the Walther and Peco are getting really close to the fast track turnout. In N scale nothing get close to Peco.
I have a friend with a large N scale layout who used Fast Track and he seems happy with it. My philosophy has always been I would rather invest my time in getting the layout built instead of spending it building turnouts by hand. When it comes to building a large layout time management is a big issue.
@@TheDCCGuy I agree with you. If I ever do fast track turnout, it will be by the edge of the layout were it is really visible. Everything else will be Unifrog peco turnout.
I've been spoiled by the new Walthers turnouts. You can keep the Peco turnouts.
Same here! New Walthers are great!
Thanks so much!!!
what I like about the peco is the turnout isn't as aggressive and looks much nicer where as the Walters is more aggressive and not as good. thanks for sharing
atb Daniel
I'm not quite sure how correct it is, but I have heard that Peco get their rails from Canada.
👍👍
Proved myself wrong........ Found somewhere lol
Andy-glad you found another source over there. I order a lot of stuff from Hattons and Rails of Sheffield and the shipping has been climbing recently. For several years I paid only about £10 shipping but recently that jumped to £25 for a loco from Rails. The exchange rate is another killer but at least they do subtract the VAT. Once my Genesis coaches from Hattons are finalized that will likely end my UK purchases. International modeling can have its stumbling blocks.
@@TheDCCGuy Unfortunately the prices here for new items are now getting ridiculously high and pricing people out of the hobby. That was one of the reasons I stopped modelling British and went back to modelling US. I'm able to pick up Athearn Genesis locos with sound here secondhand at very reasonable prices still, but it's detailing parts from the likes of Details Associates etc that are now impossible to get here. But they're needed so at some point I'll have to bite the bullet and get them. Keep the brilliant videos coming as they're very informative and interesting.
Detail parts in general can be hard to get anymore. Fortunately I have drawers full of them but with the prototype specific details on all the newer models there isn’t much demand for them anymore. Bowser has been releasing a steady stream of brass and plastic details so you might give their website a look.
As for the UK models I can’t believe the new Hornby prices and also the growing trend with O scale which is even more expensive. I have found Rails of Sheffield’s pre-owned listings to be very good deals. They only list items that are in like new condition. I recently purchased a Hornby Mallard and an SR Bulleid West Country Class pacific that look like they just arrived off the boat from China and my price less the VAT was under £100 each.
@@Castlebank_Sidings which supplier have you found? I’m looking for a Walthers track dealer in the UK