LLMs with 8GB / 16GB
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- Can a modern LLM like llama 2 and llama 3 run on older MacBooks like MacBook Air M1, M2, and Intel Core i5? Sort of and i depends on which model.
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#machinelearning #llm #softwaredevelopment - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Kind of stuff I was searching for. Thanks Alex
10:05 I believe that, for machine learning, it uses VRAM. On Intel Macs, it does not use unified memory and does not share RAM with the graphics card, as the graphics card has its own dedicated RAM called VRAM. In contrast, Mac Silicon shares RAM with the graphics card, making the GPU's RAM demand almost unlimited.
I doubt a macbook air has a discrete GPU, therefore the memory is still shared but not unified. Unified memory means that both the GPU and CPU can access the data stored on it at the same time. while regular CPU/GPU configuration just divides the memory e.g 8GB is devided 6GB for cpu and 2GB for GPU and they are not aware of what the other has stored in the other partition.
This 👆
@@laloreta798 Apple Silicon is a unified memory architecture
I was going to answer along these lines. The vram on the intel chip is probably 1-2gb.
The models are designed to use the gpu.
Hence system memory isn’t being used
This
Me and my 16gb M1 Air are thankful for this video
I had a powermac in the 90s with 16 slots for ram, my last new Mac was the first gen Air, and a core duo mini. I was working for Apple at the time and got a crazy discount. I really miss the old days and Jobs was the best boss ever. I’ll never forget his goodbye email to employees, we were literally all tearing up. Feels like a different universe since then.
great videos! You should do a video comparing the various 7B-16B models
I compared a M1 Mini vs a 2013 Mac Pro, and one of the tests I did was with Ollama. It was one of the very few tests that the Mac Pro 2013 had the clear advantage thanks to the 64 GB of ram
Q4 means the weights of the model are saved as 4 bits. The original is in FB16 which is floating point numbers with 16 bits.
What I wonder is if Alex actually knows this, but doesn't explain it, because he thinks it's too technical or if he doesn't know it and makes up something. A TH-camr making videos about AI should know, but I'm guessing he doesn't know. He doesn't even explain the drawback of quantization.
@@jmunkki well, at least the vid can save our time to test mem usage on our own lol. and thats the most valuable from such kind vids
how is this compared to a cloud solution, would the experience of running them and using the same ?
Can you do more amd / Apple arm/ snapdragon Comparisons pls
Alex, could you please share your new keyboard and sound test?😅
Did you use AI to generate all of the sound fx (RAM going up then down) ? They're dope ! :D
I have a complete oddball m2 Mac Mini with 24gb of ram that I got as a refurb from Apple. I need to try some of the new models out.
watching this on 2017 macbook air :)
I have a feeling MS's Phi could run well on Air laptops with low ram. What's your thought?
If you have a macbook pro 2019. It has a amd gpu. Could you test on it
Now we need to activate the special Apple spell to make 8GB become 16GB.
Please do a Mac mini review when it gets upgraded.
Since you have an older Mac, it would be interesting to see trying to do modern dev work on these older unsupported Macs. If you could do it on a Mac that used OCLP, that would probably be a more interesting video.
How do I know which model to pick that would work best for my use case? Is there a recommendation catalogue somewhere? Or have the community used them and shared their experience in terms of benchmarks somewhere which I can refer ?
Google and reddit
hi guys, it might be a little OOT here, but here goes nothing:
so, I'm considering to buy an M1 Macbook Air Base Model (8/256) to do some Machine Learning tasks (mostly are csv files, i don't do LLMs or anything that need a lot of storage for datasets).
If eventually someday I need to clear up some storage space for much more bigger and complex datasets, how should I store/manage my storage efficiently?
do you think using external hard drives solve this issue? or is there more efficient to tackle this problem?
thanks for answering!
How much storage is enough for this
I’ll try on a mid 2020 macbook air with a 5700XT egpu
It won't work under macOS because Ollama only supports Apple Silicon GPUs
These things need to be in RAM and not disk?
In your opinion what is the best model to use that will have the best results when returning/fixing JS, HTML, and CSS?
i still use github copilot for that, mostly
Quantized models are trained on less data? I thought they were just reduced precision representing the same training. Like turning up lossy compression, it gets pixelated.
yes exactly. reduced precision not less data
Quantized just makes the model less sure of the next token by a tiny bit, the less sure the model is of the next token on that topic, more chance that a high quant will affect its performance on that topic
Why not use Phi3?
I’m quite curious as to whether 64gb upgrade on Mac Studio is worth it, or I could spend the money on 512gb-1tb upgrade
better to buy a 64 go of ram and buy a external ssd enclosure and ssd nvme you can upgrade I would advise you to wait for the M4 because the M2 is really outdated.
@@TechGameDevyeah its really frustrating that m3/4 mac studio is not announced at wwdc this year
0:22 😅 i still own a MacBook Air 2015 core i5 model, it still works perfectly fine for regular browsing watching movies & stuff but 😂 I don’t have to keep it plugged omg
Just though I would say, I'm running Ollama on my 2013 Mac Pro with 64GB of ram and it runs fine.
Could you do a comparison of AI on a PC vs this?
@AZisk Does locally running a LLM affect the lifespan of the RAM?
No the RAM is designed to last a very, very long time. In the next 15 years, you might start to notice some wear, but by then, you will likely have changed your computer.
so which is better on LLMs between 200GB/s M2 Pro and 150GB/s M3 Pro?
The M2 Pro has more graphical power than the M3 Pro, which seems strange since the M3 Pro has fewer transistors. In any case, the M3 Pro will be more performant in 3D applications because it has several accelerations such as mesh shading and ray tracing. However, for LLM, it mainly requires pure graphical power, so the M2 Pro is better than the M3 Pro. Additionally, the M2 Pro has better bandwidth. I advise you to wait 4 months for the M4 Pro MacBook Pro, which will be much more powerful and catch up with the M3 Pro.
you should do some comparisons with the 24GB Air.... it is the only Air I would buy and I believe many others that would do real memory intensive work (containers, etc) would peek the 24GB version.
i can't recommend anything more than basic users buying a fanless device to cook the almost impoosible to change and serialized soldered ram and ssd ... also 60hz is kinda bad for the price they ask for it ... i'd rather get a 14" M3 Pro with 18 gb ram if 36 is too pricy and have a working fan in there especially since M3 lineup is pretty unhinged and gets hot fast
Question-2: How often do you see swap memory being used in 16GB, 32GB etc? Even if with lite work, would you see the swap being used all the time)
You would see swap being used 100% of the time on all memory sizes, but that's just because macOS always uses/reserves some swap.
@@chri-k Then will that cause same amount of damage to the SSD in the long term meaning we can't leave the things on there without taking backup? Do you think the swap will kill the SSD in 10-15 years on regular usage?
@@manoharmeka999 Apple uses disk RAM for swap. That is usually 1-2GB of DDR4 per RAM module, so as Apple is using two modules at 256GB and 512GB, that equates to 2-4GB of swap being stored on disk RAM. The flash storage is therefore rarely touched, so the longterm affect on SSD life is negligible for average users. If you are a pro using RAM-intensive apps, you must buy hardwired RAM for your needs.
I have M2 Air with 16GB and it really rarely uses swap. Even when it something is loaded into it, it usually is a one request and the OS simply doesn't remove it from swap.
@@manoharmeka999 SSD damage due to writes is not something the average person should think about.
The main factor causing SSD damage isn't even writes, it's firstly the physical damage to the drive caused by random unwanted chemistry occurring over time, and secondly manufacturing defects which cause some select blocks, or in rare cases the entire drive to fail much faster than normal.
And according to a couple of studies, including an internal one by Google, SSDs do not actually fail faster than hard drives do under use.
( but unlike HDDs, SSDs will degrade even when not actively in use, which is why people still use hard drives as external storage, eg for "archiving" movies )
That said, the swap won't matter much, since that swap isn't being _actively_ used.
Should have mentioned to avoid quants that don’t have k_m K_s or _x, q4_00 for example is worse and slower than q3_xs
What does that mean
@@husanaaulia4717 that’s only valid for those that seek downloading the gguf version of the file, if downloaded on huggingface, most models have a table explaining what are the best ones for each size, never download directly from the meta website
WWDC is next week and we know Apple has been working on A.I. so there should be some very interesting new LLM features. The M4 SoC has an improved neural engine and CPU / GPU AI acceleration. Will be interesting to see how that shakes out between now and the end of 2025 when all Macs should be refreshed to come with an M4 based SoC..Curious about the comparison to the Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite SoC that seems to be copying many of the Apple Silicon capabilities.
The neural improvements of the M4, according to benchmarks, are somewhat weak compared to the M1 and M3, where there was nearly a doubling in performance.
For the price Apple charges for RAM upgrades you can get years of OpenAI API tokens, no need for localized LLMs.
The point of local LLMs is exactly what you'd think (or maybe not, since you didn't get it) - They are *local*.
Many prefer wasting 300GBs of their diskspace to host a bunch of their own LLMs simply because they don't send off every single spec of data they can to whoever knows how many affiliates and data brokers.
@@shapelessed Another condescending post on the Internet.
Don't assume please, you make an ass out of u and me.
Security and privacy
With cloud LLMs, you are sharing your life with who knows what. I do not recommend it, especially for anything personal, business or educational. On-device LLMs are the way to go. And if you need to use LLMs then the extra cost of RAM is moot as it will probably pay for itself in no time.
Can't we transfer these onto the NPU (In Apple terms, Neural Engine) instead of GPU?
No NPU is adapted for small machine learning algorithms not a huge LLM. It is a small component of the SoC, optimized for specific IA tasks
@@TheFredFred33 NPUs aren't limited to ML tasks as far as I know. LLMs can be run on the NPU cores I would say. If that's not possible, 38 and 40 TFLOPS are actually of no use. They aren't any gimmick and as far as my understanding goes, they are totally capable of running at least medium-sized LLMs.
@@comrade_rahul_1 ok but i’ve never see a recent LLM used with Ollma or MLX activated the ANE 🤷🏻♂️
Nice 👍 no… sorry 😅 a very smart video Alex ! So very useful to show LLM is not the same thing than an ML algorithm. The needs of RAM are very high and the workflow very different too. When Tim Cook talk AI it’s mainly ML as Srouji, Millet or Ternus. I saw many questions about the role of ANE in a LLM context. Apple hardware designer and CoreML devs are not really sharp about this subject. ANE is better than GPU for specific and « small » ML algorithms. Very useful but limited from my point of view. No doubt GPU are necessary of LLM and can be optimized as memory management as you said. This memory management and data prioritization concerns SoC hardware implementation and OS software too. Lot of stuff for Apple teams, but as this time only 1 LLM is given in CoreML library : a Google Bert.
make a video fir windows
The problem I see with quantisation of models is that llama3 8B Q4_0 is completely useless compared to llama3 8B without quantisation. llama3 8B Q4_0 completely fails to follow the instructions in the prompt which llama3 8B executes without any problem. if we just want to talk to the model which is Q4_0 then no problem, if we want to build some solution locally and have a high understanding of our prompt, we are left using Llama3 8B-instruct-fp16
Works fine on my zephyrus g14 2021 16gb in silent mode on battery power... Similar speeds as m1 and m2.....
x86 still has some hope 😂
Disconnect it from the power source and the you'll realize that it doesn't have any hope.
@@zapomnij2126 I have written battery power... Read again ..get some hope😃
@@zapomnij2126 maybe they added it in after your reply, but it says "in silent mode on battery power"
@@SimonVaIe oh i didn't see it 💀
@@zapomnij2126 Why would anyone do that? With x86/x64, it's a given that if you want the full performance, you have to be plugged in.
Isn't that a M3 and not a M2?
Glad your 8GB one didn't blast
Question: do you advise people to go for M2 Pro on offers? Or wait for M4 Pro or Max? What is the new M4 series bring in with respect to power, nueral processing? How much of an improvement could we expect?
The M4 isn't that much better in general benchmarks than the previous ones ( although i haven't seen any AI-focused ones ), however i wouldn't trust the benchmarks until full release.
It's likely not going to be much of an improvement since it's an extremely heavy redesign, (although that might be different for AI specifically)
I don't see any reason to not wait for M4 if you do want to buy a new one though, since even if you don't buy it, M4 fully releasing will make the previous models cheaper.
Wait for the M4 models, as they are significantly better than the previous models. They are the first actual chip cycle upgrade since the M1.
I installed an LLM on my Air M3 16GB; the Llama 7B ... it was enough but if I get a bigger one I don't think the Mac will like it.
Mainly because of the lack of fans for cooling, as RAM is fine, but the CPU heated up quite quickly 🥲
The general consensus is that 32 GB of RAM is the optimal amount of RAM to run an LLM as it will allow multitasking while the LLM stays in memory. So, there are better choices than the MB Air. If you can afford the M3 Pro or Max, wait for the M4 with the Gen2 3nm.
@@andyH_England It was mainly out of curiosity that I installed the LLM (and when I'm working in areas with no connections). But thank you very much for your message, it's really interesting!
Great content. Let's say an LLM is installed and running in the background and another AI program is running simultaneously (Opera browser or Gemini for example). What happens when they " bump" into one another at the same time? Do either of them work? Do they compete with each other for RAM, CPU, GPU and neural engine resources? What do you think? Has anyone figured this out?
thx!
@@AZiskany comment on my questions?
They do compete for resources, but they don’t collide, as that would be a massive security problem. As far as one program is concerned, the others don’t exist. It is the job of the scheduler to grant access to resources to different programs over time.
4bit quantized llama 3 is pretty bad. Llama 3 doesn't quantize as well as lots of other open source models. It was trained for so long that the weights are really saturated and losing precision hurts.
Why not using the npu ?
Because the NPU doesn’t have enough ressources to host all neurones structures. It is better for contained Machine Learning algorithm but it has few limits. Mainly modern LLM needs GPU power and a bunch of RAM memory !
@@TheFredFred33 Don't understand. In my Mac mini the NPU has also access to the RAM.
@@yorkan213swd6 NPU is not an unlimited engine, there are sram memories associated to the Neural Engine cores and a limited of computational component. A NPU is optimized to work with a range of IA algorithms but it is a small IP bloc in comparison of GPU IP bloc of a Apple chip. Devs do not address NPU directly, they use CoresML which routes to the right unit CPU-AMX, ANE or GPU.
is that a keychron q1 max there? 0:30
yes. what do you think of it?
@@AZiski love the keycaps. I will buy it later haha!
You say M2 and using M3 MacBook Air!
Is 8gb RAM enough in 2024? Apple Yes, others No.
Apple even only used 4GB RAM when Android had 16GB models (S20U/S21U..), and guess what, those 4GB models still got upgrades but the S20U with 16GB flagged as not strong enough to get upgrades.. the Windows is the same, made for hundreds of different machine, meanwhile Apple use their OS on way less models. Because others can't make their OS better don't demand the same from everyone else.. or do you also demand 4 doors on the sport cars, because 2 doors not enough for you..? Just simply by that version what fit you.. (you don't need to buy their cheapest midel.. if you want cheap model, there are cheaper models from other manufacturers, if nobody buy their laptops that is a feedback from the customers..)
@@TamasKiss-yk4st Well I agree and disagree at the same time. Their operating system are optimized for their hardware. Good point.
But Apple knew the 4gb sucks in modern smartphone that’s why they didn’t continue with it they had to upgrade. Apps are no longer simple to develop , they need all those resources to run efficiently.
These generations of MacBooks will become a lot more e-waste faster than the older generations. Those older generations lasted because they were upgradable, same is true for all those upgradable windows laptops.
Most people especially developers buy MacBooks because without MacBooks it’s difficult to develop for apple platform.
In my opinion, apple isn’t doing a lot of magic. The reasons why things seems to be pretty good on their end, stems from the fact that they have fewer configurations and hardwares to work on, therefore it’s easier for them to optimize while windows and android don’t enjoy such.
Not enough, even for apple. Even for everyday light weight application multitaksing, macbooks start using swap memory which shows that they are in a shortage of ram.
The main question is Why Apple charges 200$ for 8 gigs of ram
Apple is knocking $200 off the 512GB/16GB MB Airs, which are cheaper than 95% of premium Intel Windows ultrabooks. So you just be sensible and ignore the 8GB option and realise that ATM the MB Air is a valuable alternative to Intel premium ultrabooks. However, I suspect Windows OEMs will start slashing the prices of their Core Ultra machines, with Apple undercutting them and the new kid on the block making waves.
Well, it’s not the MacOs as much as it is the architecture of the chips. I have a 2019 MBP 16 that behaves exactly like your old MacBook. I’m no computer expert so this is just theoretical at the end of the day
I have 16GB MBP from 2013 (1.5GB VRAM Iris Pro & 2GB VRAM NVIDIA GT 750m), it can’t run any MacOS beyond Big Sur 😂
M1 8GB ram hangs runs slowly llama3 8b
RISK vs SISC
X Elite laptop with 32 GB incoming 🙂
Seems very odd you want to run LLM on non memory upgradable macs. My old dell 7480 has 64GB ram and cost just $150 including 64GB of ram. Memory is the king as far as running large memory intensive programs are concerned.
what’s your bandwidth though
Apple's RAM policy is going to have to change if they want developers to continue to use Macs. Running LLMs takes a ton of memory, and there's a difference between spending a few hundred extra and a few thousand extra to get a Mac.
At least Apple offers 128GB RAM laptops, which are rare in Windows land. Most businesses using LLMs can afford Apple prices because that is how they make their living. Currently, average users download the LLM that fits their RAM configuration. However, Apple will announce its own LLM at WWDC, so things will change as it is better optimised and uses the neural engine.
They want apple kids to use Macs. Developers are the second class which they don't really care about.
They probably want people to use OpenELM models, much smaller
Probably you will won the prize for the most stupid opinion in this year. Congrats…
@@JosepCrespoSantacreu Please elaborate.
i hope that Apple AI gives me a better approach to Shortcuts. Shortcuts are way to complicated and too restricted. For example Me „Hey Apple AI, create a shortcut for the camera with a 10 second slomovideo in landscape and i want to have access with the action button“
Apple AI: „Ok“
I am surprised by the low speed of your internet. I thought you would have at least 1Gbps.
Good job
haha, obviously don't try fine tuning in any of these
Moral of the story… get more RAM for your Mac.
Download speed: 62 mb/s.
Wow.😐
a lot of people must be downloading those models :)
1 upvote = 1 MB of extra RAM, 1 comment to download your RAM
First comment 🤯
Can’t wait for the noobs coming in, when apple offers 0GB of ram. Me, as an ML engineer, I don’t care about ram. I care about memory bandwidth to the cores. And apple has done a tone of work, to basically make the disk the ram. The speed from disk to GPU is already inane. Stuff x86 machines simply can’t do. But pc noobs wont understand that 😮💨
Yeah but we want the non woke uncensored truth based models…