Richard Williams' work on Who Framed Roger Rabbit? is beyond groundbreaking, even today you can be shocked how seamlessly the animated characters and live action actors interact with each other. Its shame he never saw his passion project come to line with his vision.
It's sad how certain projects get similar ides and concepts onlz for one to come out first and the one released later often gets labled as a copy or stolen idea.
This film caused me so many nightmares when I was a child. My brain could not comprehend the animation, the movement looked jarring, and the soundtrack hurt my ears. Just the commercials would send me running. It wasn't until I saw it in school that I, unfortunately, figured out that I was sensitive to the colors, and tapped out. When I was older, I watched all of it, and my conclusion: It isn't, in my opinion, anything. It's an experimental film that is like something out of the 60s-70s. Knowing more about its release, it's evident that it wasn't going to move the needle.
I have never heard of this film until this day. I'm 33 years old and I watched every single animated feature film I could get my hands on in the 90s. I guess this film didn't have any traction in Brazil? At least it never crossed my way. I'll look for it now, thanks for bringing this up.
There's actually an official upload of the restored version here on TH-cam if you want to check it out! it should be the first result you find if you look up "thief and the cobbler"
Oh boy. I'm interested in unmade movies and I can tell you, without seeing the video yet, Richard Williams' "The Thief and the Cobbler," is the most infamous unmade animated movie, in the way that Jodorowsky's Dune is for live-action. This video should be interesting. It will also be sad, but at least we get "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" out of it.
I think Aladdin takes far more inspiration from The Thief of Bagdad (1940) than it does from The Thief and the Cobbler. But, the troubled production of The Thief and the Cobbler may have been the spark that started Aladdin's production nonetheless.
It was more so Howard Ashman's love for the story of "Aladdin" that sparked the making of the film. He played the role on stage when he was a young boy.
@@archelaus1598 Huh. I knew that Aladdin was Howard Ashman's passion project because he played the role when he was young, but I didn't know he was the one who pitched the idea to Disney in the first place. That's pretty cool.
One of my personal favorite films since childhood. I was first introduced to The Thief and The Cobbler via the Miramax Home Video release. In hindsight, that version of Cobbler is disjointed and rushed, but there was still something captivating about it that I watched it god knows how many times. It wouldn't be until sometime in the 2000s when I started hearing about how the film was messed with by the distributors and how it was meant to be a different experience than what we ended up getting. I was finally able to see the Cobbled Cut a few years ago and it's a much better film now than ever before. Thank you, Richard Williams, for creating a unique (though, unfinished) masterpiece. R.I.P.
Im curious why the notion that Disney stole this idea from Williams keeps being repeated, since Aladdin was the passion project of Howard Ashman, who was inspired by the story as a child when he performed the play in children’s theatre in Baltimore in the early 60s. He pitched a treatment with songs integrated to Disney when he was brought on in the mid-80s. The story in Aladdin, is also just based on THE THIEF OF BAGHDAD from 1940. Disney’s version was never based on Williams’.
I was just going to mention that movie as watching it, you'll see waaaaay more of the notes from Aladdin than the Thief and the Cobbler. The only thing Aladdin and the Thief and the Cobbler have in common is just the general IDEA of where the story takes place culturally and a blue character that stole the show.
Some of the animators Williams fired during Theif's 30-year production were later employed at Disney and worked on Aladdin. So I can see how Aladdin got some of Theif's "flavor."
im surprised how little you touched on Williams notorious perfectionism as it made him incredibly hard to work with though its true he was robed of his masterwork it was partially self infected by his sky high standards often causing huge budget overruns and massive time delays
Agreed. I (along with several others) feel that the film’s biggest problems are a result of it feeling more like a tech demo more than a coherent story. While art doesn’t bode well with capitalism at all for deservedly infuriating reasons and it’s easy to romantically ponder a world where art isn’t beholden to money or resources, most art is still at it’s best when there’s a right balance of creative freedom and restrictions, neither of which The Thief and The Cobbler had.
@@lh9591 To the investors, it seems he was. He would take their money and promise to deliver on an agreed deadline. Only for the date to come and go without finished work.
Yeah, I feel sorry Williams didn't finish it, but he missed deadlines multiple times. It's no wonder the film's investors panicked. He needed a reality check at some point on what compromises needed to be made to finish the movie.
@@poncut5074) I don't understand your criticism of the story..... You seem to think there's only one way to do it.... Do you hate french new wave films?
I saw the Recobbled cut recently and the animation and the work put into it is amazing. It's a shame I'd never heard of it before. Aside from it being unfinished it's one of my favorite movies of all time now.
While it's easy to blame studios for this mess (and they certainly didn't help matters.) Some of the blame has to go to Williams. I don't think he was arrogant per say but definitely overly ambitious. He said he wanted to make a masterpiece like someone who masters a painting or a pot and there I think was his first problem. 1. Think of any of your favorite works of art, I guarantee you very little or any of the people who made them would say that they set out to make a masterpiece, they would say that they were just trying to make the best art they could. When you set your goals so absurd highly, it makes them almost impossible to reach and 2. Making a pot or a painting is cheap and can be done by just one person. An animated movie is a far different story and approaching it with that kinda mindset isn't a good idea
@@steamboatwill3.367 I mean it’s hard to blame them when Williams had missed multiple deadlines and is asking for more and more time and money for an already expensive project.
No I would never frame it that black and white. Yes, the studios made some dumb choices but Williams should've been more reasonable with his expectations and budget. Honestly the fact that the studios let the project go on for 3 decades and not boot Williams off way earlier tells me they were pretty generous with the guy all things considered
That this was Vincent Price's last performance before his passing in 1993 (I was 7 going on 8 then and had been introduced to his voice work on Rankin-Bass's animated TV holiday classics on VHS before even seeing his work in live-action movies) is for me reason alone to watch this.
Lost/unfinished/canceled media always fascinates me because its like peering into a world that could’ve been. I first heard of Thief and the Cobbler when Matt McMuscles did a “wha happun?” covering its troubled production, so seeing this video pop up in my feed was a nice surprise.
I would love to see a top notch animation studio try to restore "The Recobbled Cut", and then release it in select theaters as a "special event" road show presentation (i.e. _The Hateful Eight_ ). Maybe the likes of Cartoon Saloon. An ambitious endeavor, sure, but...one can only dream.
Richard Williams is definitely one of my heroes knowing that he died before he could become his magnum opus Cinemasterpiece just breaks my heart and makes realize that there needs to be a movie studio that specializes in reviving unmade movies even from other studios
On one hand the thief and the cobbler is an example of how a creator can make the product worse. I don’t mean in the animation quality, I mean in terms of actually getting the thing released. I respect Richard Williams immensely, and I am fascinated by what you said, “art is in conflict with commerce,” however creators can sometimes be their worst enemies.. Williams’s perfectionism meant that he was constantly firing,hiring, reworking the movie. This IS expensive. From his business partners’ perspectives, this can’t inspire confidence. Think of the other times, creators had full blown control over a project and it made things worse? Akira Toriyama in the buu saga (I still love it), George Lucas with the prequels. Filmmaking is a collaborative effort and that has process, while flawed, HAS helped projects not be cohesive but can make the product better. Dragon Ball’s editors at times did make the story better, Star Wars excelled when other individuals had a greater say in the films, studio ghibi faced so many pressures both within and outside-it nearly went bankrupt with princess monokee-but the studio was able to put out one of the greatest movies of all time even if it had to compromise. I wish their and the cobbler was finished. Perhaps Williams could have released a cut but decided to add in scenes later on.i wish we got that Greek tragedy animated story-his final short is something to behold in awe.
This take, while not wrong really, doesn't really work here when the studio (Warner Bros) just abendonded the film (yeah this isn't a new thing for them), where as the ones you mentioned didn't have that issue.
@@steamboatwill3.367 i mean I don’t excuse the studio…but recall that the film even before Warner brothers had been in limbo for years. Was WB wrong? Yes to an extent and how they dealt with the film was a slap in the face to the creative team, But Williams was a perfectionist to a fault. And it’s not like the movie really had an incredible story, it relied more on animation. The animation is ambitious but it took longer than expected, and Richard’s inability to complete the movie on time with WB unwilling to fully commit helped doom the project. I do like Matt’s point that cobbler and the thief is more about art vs business.
@@bradhorowitz2765 ) what's wrong with the story? It's meant to be like an Arbian Night and not too "Disneyfied" and it's done almost like a silent film. Why is that so hard to understand?
@@steamboatwill3.367 its just a normal pauper falls in love with princess and an evil sorcerer bad guy.its been done already and is quite popular. As matt draper even pointed out, the animation took the stage while the story is...eh. Obviously this dosnt mean a completed movie wouldn't have been good or even that the story wouldn't have been good. Its just that are we really going to talk about the characters? or more about the animation? animation.
This movie is such a unique beast. There's no other like this. The only one that comes close, I think, it's steamboy (Also known as the most expensive anime movie in history) Also took years to finish, has absolutely gorgeous animation and was a huge bomb
I actually really love the thief’s narration, it’s one of the things I remember most of the film outside of the stunning visuals of course. Interesting video!
According to Michael Sporn, who had worked with Williams briefly, prior to The Thief he went over budget and schedule on four separate occasions. Chuck Jones finished A Christmas Carol, Gerry Potterton Raggedy Ann, Eric Goldberg Ziggy’s Gift and Robert Zemeckis and a separate team at Disney Roger Rabbit. Unlike with The Thief, Williams staid till the end on those examples. Too bad he wasn't as lucky with The Thief.
I first saw the Arabian Knight version when I was around 7 - 10. It was a throw-away film, something to watch and then forget about later, outside of seeing Vincent Price (who I always enjoyed seeing in tv/movies even as a kid) be his entertaining hammy evil self. About 10 years later, I finally saw the Recobbled Cut on a stream and appreciated the amazing animation, even if parts go on way too long, and the story/characters took a backseat to it. If the film ever makes onto blu-ray, I'll definitely pick it up. I do love the passion and artistry of Richard Williams, but I felt like those strengths were also his weaknesses as well. There's a good documentary about the making of The Thief and The Cobbler called The Persistence of Vision, which gave a warts and all presentation of Williams, both his professional and private life. The documentary really shows that artists occasionally need someone to reign their impluses in! A very good video, Matt! I am sad you've moved away from covering regular comics (at least, in longer form videos) and superheroes, but I understand how a person can get burnt out on reading those. I'm still enjoying your newer stuff, especially when you look at obscure films and the behind the scene stories for them. Hope you're having a fun and safe summer!
Thief and the Clobber had the potential to be a Williams' Masterpiece and it's a shame he never got a chance to finish it. But film is a good cautionary tale of how auteur creator like Williams can be push into the unrealistic restraints of time and money when trying to make their passion project absolutely perfect.
I think the problem with Williams trying to make a masterpiece is, unlike a painter who has full control over a painting they make, you simply cannot make a big grand animated movie on your own. At least not without it taking years and years of work dedicating yourself to it. Trying to make a masterpiece by working other talent to a grueling degree, and trying to garner further funding from different companies who just want a finished product, will never work. I feel for it on an artistic level, but there's simply no realistic world where this project would have gone well with his approach.
@@steamboatwill3.367cause he hadn’t finished it when agreed. It’s a pattern with him that he kept saying he’d have it done by a certain point and fail to deliver
This came on randomly one Saturday in mid 96 or 98ish on WSFL-TV Channel 39 on a mid-afternoon. It was so trippy seeing this at 8ish years of age. I could tell it was similar to the mouse's Aladdin but going out of its way to be faster, it was wild.
I've read so much about the background of this movie and maybe have seen one version of it like, once...I'm really hoping to see this amazing "original vision" version someday.
I actually watched the uncut version of this movie it is really good. It is really a shame that this version of the movie was never made. And it said they use that film to make a rip off of Aladdin
Shout out to Matt Draper for being on the Oblivion wave. It feels like every year or so, I rediscover how much I love that song and that movie. Also, this is the best video I’ve ever seen on this film’s production.
I am convinced Disney ripped off a lot of stuff over the years, but then they get away with it because they're Disney. I'm not talking about stuff like Kimba the White Lion/Hamlet. I'm talking about general looks and influences. It's no surprise that _Aladdin_ has a lot of similarities to _The Thief and the Cobbler._ I feel like something that grand couldn't totally be kept under wraps and others would have seen it. Another movie that I think Disney used for (ahem) "inspiration" is the live-action _Sinbad_ with Lou Ferrigno. It came out several years before _Aladdin_ and the character similarities are pretty striking.
The Fleisher Bros made an Aladdin adaption in the 30's or 40's which also had a similar blue jinni. And Toei's first Puss & Boots movie had a similar bad guy.
love this movie, I remember watching this on repeat with my older brother, laying on the floor eating snacks and drinking mt dew lol, we still quote the thief to this day, and his vocal performance is AMAZING!
I mean it's always sad to see the creator can't finish the work that they have in mind and even sadder when creator kicked out of the project. However, 25 years + in making is just way too long, there'll be no studio in any place or world would sink their money for project that don't see any close to finish. Richard William is really infamous for his perfectionist, and he don't compromise in his work each scene need to be A++++, even in significant scenes. This is why his last project about Lysistrata never finish, he has to release Prologue which suppose to be the introduction of that movie story. At some point we have to draw the line where the quality and deadline should meet otherwise we'll have the case like this where the film will never truly finish.
I unironically LOVE the Thief and the Cobbler Miramax version. I watched it all the time growing up and still find it hilarious. I quote the Thief regularly.
As a proud owner of the thief and the cobbler dvd fruit loops edition I watched the mirimax version so many times as a kid. I enjoyed the thief’s motor mouth and had no idea there was a different cut until decades later. I enjoyed Disney movies for there music and enjoyed the music in this plus the stunning animation.
Yum Yum, Balls and One Eyes, tihi.... Srysly though I am a huge animation fan, especially classic hand drawn animation and I've never heard of this. Very interesting. Thank you for bringing it to mine and others attention.
I've watched the Recobbled Cut and even though I animate for a living I found it often slow to the point of sluggishness. As a coherent piece of narrative, the film is very simplistic and other than Zig Zag for me lacks compelling characters. It lingers on its visual strength, lavish scenes of hand-animated marvel that couldn't be done better even with today's digital production means. Taken on their own, those animation sequences are a tour de force, combining the mastery of entire generations of traditional animators. Wrapped into a movie, however, they become a patchwork of animated showcases that have been re-written, half-animated, re-conceptualized and re-cut over the course of three decades. It turns into an unevenly paced collection that tells you everything about the creator's ambition but way too little about the movie it could have been. The Thief and the Cobbler is a masterpiece of 20th century traditional animation - but it's not a good film because over the course of its long and troubled production it lost sight of its own holistic vision, running only on Richard Williams' will to achieve animated perfection.
As time goes on the more disillusioned I become with incomplete artistic visions. Williams sounded like a hard guy to work with lacking ability to compromise and balance the workload for the many people he worked with and/or fired. This reminds me of Jodorowsky's Dune and the impracticality of the production of the movie. I'm sure movies that were inspired by incompleted works had their hardships but the companies seemed to know better about finishing them in a practical fashion and reaping the rewards.
Wonderful return to form, sir! This almost seems like the opposite of Phil Tippett's "Mad God" Though I believe you misspoke at 1:47. You should have said, "a blend of animation & live action never seen before or since." Green screen kinda ruined it. The lighting is never right. "I find The creation and fate of the thief and the cobbler To be the ultimate example of the inherent incompatibility of art and commerce" Wonderfully said
This is really a sad story. One man pours years of passion and hard work into a labour of love, only for it to be taken by corporate money men, chewed up and spat out. But I have to think that Williams was being a bit naive. A feature length project like this needs a ton of money and a stable distribution. The uncomfortable fact is that art can't be made for free. Artists need to pay their bills and buy food, and someone needs to do work to put the art into the world. That's probably why so many companies run by creatives end up failing. Though no one likes them, there needs to be a guy to keep the ledgers in order and balance the books. Otherwise the creatives can't keep making their art.
From what I understand, Howard Ashman was the impetus for bringing Aladdin to Disney, so I don't think Thief & Cobbler had much influence on that decision. Ashman had played Aladdin in his youth and was anxious to have a crack at it.
I've been sitting here the entire video having crazy flashbacks of this movie. I couldn't figure out where/when I saw it. It was like a fever dream... Till the froot loops!!!!!! Omg that's exactly how I watched this crazy movie 🤣🤣
Nothing major to add, but I did see a trailer for this, it was in the UK showing before Predator 2 and looked phenomenal on the big screen. Great video.
I watched the Marimax Version of The Thief and the Cobbler on VHS and DVD a lot as a kid. Still glad a fan made version of Richard Williams Film is still beautiful dispute being incomplete.
I remember seeing it as a little kid and just thinking it was an Aladdin rip off. It wasn’t until years later I learned the story behind it and how it got butchered. There’s no way of knowing what the original vision would have been, but it would have been his vision.
This is not the only movie that faced a lot of problems. There was also Freddie the Frog (Also called Freddie as F.R.O.7) and A Fish Tale (Also known as HELP! I'm a Fish).
I wonder if Richard Williams and Miyazaki ever met or had any opinions on each other. Both of them seem to be perfectionists and dislike their industries but love their craft. I feel like Richard might be slightly nicer though. If you watch his lectures he makes a lot of jokes and isn't as serious as Miyazaki so I was a bit surprised when I heard he fired animators for not being good enough though I could understand it if this was his one chance at making his very own magnum opus
LOL in 2011 I did my final presentation for my film study class on this movie. And the funny thing is I've never actually seen the film because my presentation was on the cobbler cut and it's the only version I've ever seen😂
From my perspective, the ultimate burn in all of this is the fact that, when Miramax got their been-too-many-places hands on this film, they proceeded to go full Disney wannabe and retitled it Arabian *Knight.* As in, just two letters off from the Aladdin song titled Arabian *Nights.* You know, Nathan Lane had a point - “up until now, I thought Monsters Inc was a documentary on the Weinsteins.” Eminem wishes his disses were that accurate
As a kid I had the Miramax version on VHS. I would constantly watch either that or Aladdin if I was craving an Arabian adventure lol. It would be great to see some version of this movie to be released on blu ray or 4k but Im still waiting or Titan A.E. to get a blu ray release, let alone the thief and the cobbler.
Zig zag is voiced by a sadly long deceased classic veteran actor. Vincent price. Rest in peace price Vincent the fictional greatest criminal mindddd. Lol
I hate to say this, but - Richard Williams didn't know when enough was enough. As spectacular as his animation was, he kept going off on interminable sidetracks. The War Machine sequence may have been an amazing achievement, but as a viewing experience, it stops being funny about halfway through. The South African cut of that scene is actually more entertaining. I don't say Miramax did the movie any favors, but the whole thing NEEDED editing.
Be thankful that you don't live in a timeline where the film wasn't botched up even further by 4kids to be released as a featurette to coincide with Pokemon: The First Movie in 1999.
The Recobbled Cut crew are just going to end up making their own animation studio and then spend the next 20 years finishing the thing themselves, aren't they?
well if they formed their own animation studio that would be great but all they need to do is add ink and paint to the unfinished scenes and hire Maurice LaMarche to takeover Vincent Price's unused dialogue plus quite possibly hire Alan Silvestri or Bruce Broughton to be the music composer
What’s your favorite lesser known animated movie?
Cartoon Saloons The Irish Folklore Trilogy
Peter and the Wolf from 2006 comes to mind. There's also Plague Dogs that will break you. Also, Kubo and the Two Strings.
How about Wizards by Bakshi
The Snowman is a wintery masterpiece
Probably sword and the stone fire and ice and cool world
Richard Williams' work on Who Framed Roger Rabbit? is beyond groundbreaking, even today you can be shocked how seamlessly the animated characters and live action actors interact with each other. Its shame he never saw his passion project come to line with his vision.
Jessica Rabbit is sexy AF!
Around the Same Time he was attached to direct Watchmen when it was in Development Hell
It's sad how certain projects get similar ides and concepts onlz for one to come out first and the one released later often gets labled as a copy or stolen idea.
This film caused me so many nightmares when I was a child. My brain could not comprehend the animation, the movement looked jarring, and the soundtrack hurt my ears. Just the commercials would send me running. It wasn't until I saw it in school that I, unfortunately, figured out that I was sensitive to the colors, and tapped out.
When I was older, I watched all of it, and my conclusion: It isn't, in my opinion, anything. It's an experimental film that is like something out of the 60s-70s.
Knowing more about its release, it's evident that it wasn't going to move the needle.
“NOW I HAVE THE BALLS!”
-Vincent Price
"OH MY!"
-George Takei
"Goodnight, everybody!"
-Yakko Warner.
the description of his animation process seems to have been his own worst enemy. he let perfection be the enemy of good.
I have never heard of this film until this day. I'm 33 years old and I watched every single animated feature film I could get my hands on in the 90s. I guess this film didn't have any traction in Brazil? At least it never crossed my way. I'll look for it now, thanks for bringing this up.
There's actually an official upload of the restored version here on TH-cam if you want to check it out! it should be the first result you find if you look up "thief and the cobbler"
Oh boy. I'm interested in unmade movies and I can tell you, without seeing the video yet, Richard Williams' "The Thief and the Cobbler," is the most infamous unmade animated movie, in the way that Jodorowsky's Dune is for live-action. This video should be interesting. It will also be sad, but at least we get "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" out of it.
I think Aladdin takes far more inspiration from The Thief of Bagdad (1940) than it does from The Thief and the Cobbler. But, the troubled production of The Thief and the Cobbler may have been the spark that started Aladdin's production nonetheless.
It was more so Howard Ashman's love for the story of "Aladdin" that sparked the making of the film. He played the role on stage when he was a young boy.
@@archelaus1598 Huh. I knew that Aladdin was Howard Ashman's passion project because he played the role when he was young, but I didn't know he was the one who pitched the idea to Disney in the first place. That's pretty cool.
One of my personal favorite films since childhood. I was first introduced to The Thief and The Cobbler via the Miramax Home Video release. In hindsight, that version of Cobbler is disjointed and rushed, but there was still something captivating about it that I watched it god knows how many times. It wouldn't be until sometime in the 2000s when I started hearing about how the film was messed with by the distributors and how it was meant to be a different experience than what we ended up getting. I was finally able to see the Cobbled Cut a few years ago and it's a much better film now than ever before. Thank you, Richard Williams, for creating a unique (though, unfinished) masterpiece. R.I.P.
At least we have the Re-Cobbled Cut. Even if it is bits and pieces, we at least have a clue about what this could have been.
Im curious why the notion that Disney stole this idea from Williams keeps being repeated, since Aladdin was the passion project of Howard Ashman, who was inspired by the story as a child when he performed the play in children’s theatre in Baltimore in the early 60s. He pitched a treatment with songs integrated to Disney when he was brought on in the mid-80s. The story in Aladdin, is also just based on THE THIEF OF BAGHDAD from 1940. Disney’s version was never based on Williams’.
I was just going to mention that movie as watching it, you'll see waaaaay more of the notes from Aladdin than the Thief and the Cobbler. The only thing Aladdin and the Thief and the Cobbler have in common is just the general IDEA of where the story takes place culturally and a blue character that stole the show.
Some of the animators Williams fired during Theif's 30-year production were later employed at Disney and worked on Aladdin. So I can see how Aladdin got some of Theif's "flavor."
@@bbfissingle1715 I don’t feel they have the same flavor though, and the similarities of the story are because they both come from the same source.
Both are based on stories from One Thousand and One Nights.
There are some parts early on that are TOO similar (like Aladdin falling through a line of clothes)
im surprised how little you touched on Williams notorious perfectionism as it made him incredibly hard to work with though its true he was robed of his masterwork it was partially self infected by his sky high standards often causing huge budget overruns and massive time delays
Agreed. I (along with several others) feel that the film’s biggest problems are a result of it feeling more like a tech demo more than a coherent story.
While art doesn’t bode well with capitalism at all for deservedly infuriating reasons and it’s easy to romantically ponder a world where art isn’t beholden to money or resources, most art is still at it’s best when there’s a right balance of creative freedom and restrictions, neither of which The Thief and The Cobbler had.
Was he a difficult to work with person?
@@lh9591 To the investors, it seems he was. He would take their money and promise to deliver on an agreed deadline. Only for the date to come and go without finished work.
Yeah, I feel sorry Williams didn't finish it, but he missed deadlines multiple times. It's no wonder the film's investors panicked. He needed a reality check at some point on what compromises needed to be made to finish the movie.
@@poncut5074) I don't understand your criticism of the story.....
You seem to think there's only one way to do it....
Do you hate french new wave films?
I saw the Recobbled cut recently and the animation and the work put into it is amazing. It's a shame I'd never heard of it before. Aside from it being unfinished it's one of my favorite movies of all time now.
While it's easy to blame studios for this mess (and they certainly didn't help matters.) Some of the blame has to go to Williams. I don't think he was arrogant per say but definitely overly ambitious. He said he wanted to make a masterpiece like someone who masters a painting or a pot and there I think was his first problem. 1. Think of any of your favorite works of art, I guarantee you very little or any of the people who made them would say that they set out to make a masterpiece, they would say that they were just trying to make the best art they could. When you set your goals so absurd highly, it makes them almost impossible to reach and 2. Making a pot or a painting is cheap and can be done by just one person. An animated movie is a far different story and approaching it with that kinda mindset isn't a good idea
At least you aren't calling him the villian, but it was really the studios who messed up.
@@steamboatwill3.367 I mean it’s hard to blame them when Williams had missed multiple deadlines and is asking for more and more time and money for an already expensive project.
No I would never frame it that black and white. Yes, the studios made some dumb choices but Williams should've been more reasonable with his expectations and budget. Honestly the fact that the studios let the project go on for 3 decades and not boot Williams off way earlier tells me they were pretty generous with the guy all things considered
@@SpikeJet2736 ) it was his own studio, Warner Bros only came in after Roger Rabbit.
That this was Vincent Price's last performance before his passing in 1993 (I was 7 going on 8 then and had been introduced to his voice work on Rankin-Bass's animated TV holiday classics on VHS before even seeing his work in live-action movies) is for me reason alone to watch this.
Lost/unfinished/canceled media always fascinates me because its like peering into a world that could’ve been. I first heard of Thief and the Cobbler when Matt McMuscles did a “wha happun?” covering its troubled production, so seeing this video pop up in my feed was a nice surprise.
I would love to see a top notch animation studio try to restore "The Recobbled Cut", and then release it in select theaters as a "special event" road show presentation (i.e. _The Hateful Eight_ ). Maybe the likes of Cartoon Saloon. An ambitious endeavor, sure, but...one can only dream.
Richard Williams is definitely one of my heroes knowing that he died before he could become his magnum opus Cinemasterpiece just breaks my heart and makes realize that there needs to be a movie studio that specializes in reviving unmade movies even from other studios
On one hand the thief and the cobbler is an example of how a creator can make the product worse. I don’t mean in the animation quality, I mean in terms of actually getting the thing released. I respect Richard Williams immensely, and I am fascinated by what you said, “art is in conflict with commerce,” however creators can sometimes be their worst enemies.. Williams’s perfectionism meant that he was constantly firing,hiring, reworking the movie. This IS expensive. From his business partners’ perspectives, this can’t inspire confidence. Think of the other times, creators had full blown control over a project and it made things worse? Akira Toriyama in the buu saga (I still love it), George Lucas with the prequels. Filmmaking is a collaborative effort and that has process, while flawed, HAS helped projects not be cohesive but can make the product better. Dragon Ball’s editors at times did make the story better, Star Wars excelled when other individuals had a greater say in the films, studio ghibi faced so many pressures both within and outside-it nearly went bankrupt with princess monokee-but the studio was able to put out one of the greatest movies of all time even if it had to compromise.
I wish their and the cobbler was finished. Perhaps Williams could have released a cut but decided to add in scenes later on.i wish we got that Greek tragedy animated story-his final short is something to behold in awe.
This take, while not wrong really, doesn't really work here when the studio (Warner Bros) just abendonded the film (yeah this isn't a new thing for them), where as the ones you mentioned didn't have that issue.
@@steamboatwill3.367 i mean I don’t excuse the studio…but recall that the film even before Warner brothers had been in limbo for years. Was WB wrong? Yes to an extent and how they dealt with the film was a slap in the face to the creative team, But Williams was a perfectionist to a fault. And it’s not like the movie really had an incredible story, it relied more on animation. The animation is ambitious but it took longer than expected, and Richard’s inability to complete the movie on time with WB unwilling to fully commit helped doom the project. I do like Matt’s point that cobbler and the thief is more about art vs business.
@@bradhorowitz2765 ) what's wrong with the story?
It's meant to be like an Arbian Night and not too "Disneyfied" and it's done almost like a silent film.
Why is that so hard to understand?
@@steamboatwill3.367 its just a normal pauper falls in love with princess and an evil sorcerer bad guy.its been done already and is quite popular. As matt draper even pointed out, the animation took the stage while the story is...eh. Obviously this dosnt mean a completed movie wouldn't have been good or even that the story wouldn't have been good. Its just that are we really going to talk about the characters? or more about the animation? animation.
@@bradhorowitz2765 ) what's the story of "The Matrix"?
The chase scene with Tack and the Thief is one of the greatest pieces of animation I think I ever seen
This movie really is the living example of "Art is pain, and then you die"
This movie is such a unique beast. There's no other like this.
The only one that comes close, I think, it's steamboy (Also known as the most expensive anime movie in history)
Also took years to finish, has absolutely gorgeous animation and was a huge bomb
Williams was his own worst enemy. It’s a sad story but it’s a story not forgotten.
I actually really love the thief’s narration, it’s one of the things I remember most of the film outside of the stunning visuals of course. Interesting video!
According to Michael Sporn, who had worked with Williams briefly, prior to The Thief he went over budget and schedule on four separate occasions.
Chuck Jones finished A Christmas Carol, Gerry Potterton Raggedy Ann, Eric Goldberg Ziggy’s Gift and Robert Zemeckis and a separate team at Disney Roger Rabbit.
Unlike with The Thief, Williams staid till the end on those examples. Too bad he wasn't as lucky with The Thief.
If Matt Draper talks about Miramax, it'd be a joy to me. 😂
I first saw the Arabian Knight version when I was around 7 - 10. It was a throw-away film, something to watch and then forget about later, outside of seeing Vincent Price (who I always enjoyed seeing in tv/movies even as a kid) be his entertaining hammy evil self.
About 10 years later, I finally saw the Recobbled Cut on a stream and appreciated the amazing animation, even if parts go on way too long, and the story/characters took a backseat to it. If the film ever makes onto blu-ray, I'll definitely pick it up.
I do love the passion and artistry of Richard Williams, but I felt like those strengths were also his weaknesses as well. There's a good documentary about the making of The Thief and The Cobbler called The Persistence of Vision, which gave a warts and all presentation of Williams, both his professional and private life. The documentary really shows that artists occasionally need someone to reign their impluses in!
A very good video, Matt! I am sad you've moved away from covering regular comics (at least, in longer form videos) and superheroes, but I understand how a person can get burnt out on reading those. I'm still enjoying your newer stuff, especially when you look at obscure films and the behind the scene stories for them. Hope you're having a fun and safe summer!
Thief and the Clobber had the potential to be a Williams' Masterpiece and it's a shame he never got a chance to finish it.
But film is a good cautionary tale of how auteur creator like Williams can be push into the unrealistic restraints of time and money when trying to make their passion project absolutely perfect.
I think the problem with Williams trying to make a masterpiece is, unlike a painter who has full control over a painting they make, you simply cannot make a big grand animated movie on your own.
At least not without it taking years and years of work dedicating yourself to it.
Trying to make a masterpiece by working other talent to a grueling degree, and trying to garner further funding from different companies who just want a finished product, will never work.
I feel for it on an artistic level, but there's simply no realistic world where this project would have gone well with his approach.
except, it was almost finished when the WB just dropped out.
@@steamboatwill3.367cause he hadn’t finished it when agreed. It’s a pattern with him that he kept saying he’d have it done by a certain point and fail to deliver
Have seen multiple videos on this film, and it all fascinates me. One of the wildest stories in animation history
This came on randomly one Saturday in mid 96 or 98ish on WSFL-TV Channel 39 on a mid-afternoon. It was so trippy seeing this at 8ish years of age. I could tell it was similar to the mouse's Aladdin but going out of its way to be faster, it was wild.
I've read so much about the background of this movie and maybe have seen one version of it like, once...I'm really hoping to see this amazing "original vision" version someday.
One of the greatest animated films. Grew up on this one as a child. Absolute favorite! Art direction crazy nxt lvl.
I actually watched the uncut version of this movie it is really good. It is really a shame that this version of the movie was never made. And it said they use that film to make a rip off of Aladdin
Shout out to Matt Draper for being on the Oblivion wave. It feels like every year or so, I rediscover how much I love that song and that movie. Also, this is the best video I’ve ever seen on this film’s production.
The Vizier suspiciously looks like mix of Jafar and genie. Good video
yeah exactly even had a bird Disney is well known for doing this
I am convinced Disney ripped off a lot of stuff over the years, but then they get away with it because they're Disney. I'm not talking about stuff like Kimba the White Lion/Hamlet. I'm talking about general looks and influences.
It's no surprise that _Aladdin_ has a lot of similarities to _The Thief and the Cobbler._ I feel like something that grand couldn't totally be kept under wraps and others would have seen it. Another movie that I think Disney used for (ahem) "inspiration" is the live-action _Sinbad_ with Lou Ferrigno. It came out several years before _Aladdin_ and the character similarities are pretty striking.
@@funnycatvideos5490It isn't exactly a unique idea for a villain to have an animal sidekick. Maleficent with her crow is an obvious example.
The Fleisher Bros made an Aladdin adaption in the 30's or 40's which also had a similar blue jinni. And Toei's first Puss & Boots movie had a similar bad guy.
@@daffers2345 They didn't rip off anything. By your logic the thief and the cobbler is a rip off the thief form bagdad 1940
love this movie, I remember watching this on repeat with my older brother, laying on the floor eating snacks and drinking mt dew lol, we still quote the thief to this day, and his vocal performance is AMAZING!
I mean it's always sad to see the creator can't finish the work that they have in mind and even sadder when creator kicked out of the project.
However, 25 years + in making is just way too long, there'll be no studio in any place or world would sink their money for project that don't see any close to finish.
Richard William is really infamous for his perfectionist, and he don't compromise in his work each scene need to be A++++, even in significant scenes.
This is why his last project about Lysistrata never finish, he has to release Prologue which suppose to be the introduction of that movie story.
At some point we have to draw the line where the quality and deadline should meet otherwise we'll have the case like this where the film will never truly finish.
Never get tired of this story, as sad as it is that a creator never saw his vision completed
I unironically LOVE the Thief and the Cobbler Miramax version. I watched it all the time growing up and still find it hilarious. I quote the Thief regularly.
Even if completed as intended, I don't think it would've been a huge success. Probably would've been a cult classic.
I think its kind of sad that cartoon animation is the most expensive and time consuming animation to make
As a proud owner of the thief and the cobbler dvd fruit loops edition I watched the mirimax version so many times as a kid. I enjoyed the thief’s motor mouth and had no idea there was a different cut until decades later. I enjoyed Disney movies for there music and enjoyed the music in this plus the stunning animation.
I vaguely remember this movie being referenced in an old magazine i had for a while ( mabey Heavy Metal ? ) thats the only way i knew it existed
Wow, mind-blowing animation indeed! Thanks for another excellent essay
I've seen the Re-Cobbled cut. It's the most beautifully animated work I've ever seen. 🥲
Beautiful deep dive into what should have been a classic only to get wrecked.
Yum Yum, Balls and One Eyes, tihi.... Srysly though I am a huge animation fan, especially classic hand drawn animation and I've never heard of this. Very interesting. Thank you for bringing it to mine and others attention.
I've watched the Recobbled Cut and even though I animate for a living I found it often slow to the point of sluggishness.
As a coherent piece of narrative, the film is very simplistic and other than Zig Zag for me lacks compelling characters. It lingers on its visual strength, lavish scenes of hand-animated marvel that couldn't be done better even with today's digital production means. Taken on their own, those animation sequences are a tour de force, combining the mastery of entire generations of traditional animators. Wrapped into a movie, however, they become a patchwork of animated showcases that have been re-written, half-animated, re-conceptualized and re-cut over the course of three decades. It turns into an unevenly paced collection that tells you everything about the creator's ambition but way too little about the movie it could have been.
The Thief and the Cobbler is a masterpiece of 20th century traditional animation - but it's not a good film because over the course of its long and troubled production it lost sight of its own holistic vision, running only on Richard Williams' will to achieve animated perfection.
As usual, Vincent Price stole the show and owned every scene he was in, either in the theatrical version or the Recobbled Cut.
What went wrong is a little thing called perfectionism combined with lack of storytelling ability
They always had a script, idk where you get the idea of there being "no story" from......
Persistence of vision is one of the best documentaries of all time.
As time goes on the more disillusioned I become with incomplete artistic visions. Williams sounded like a hard guy to work with lacking ability to compromise and balance the workload for the many people he worked with and/or fired. This reminds me of Jodorowsky's Dune and the impracticality of the production of the movie. I'm sure movies that were inspired by incompleted works had their hardships but the companies seemed to know better about finishing them in a practical fashion and reaping the rewards.
Even Beethoven knew when to stop working on Symphony No. 9…
Wonderful return to form, sir! This almost seems like the opposite of Phil Tippett's "Mad God"
Though I believe you misspoke at 1:47. You should have said, "a blend of animation & live action never seen before or since." Green screen kinda ruined it. The lighting is never right.
"I find The creation and fate of the thief and the cobbler To be the ultimate example of the inherent incompatibility of art and commerce"
Wonderfully said
One of my favorite movies as a kid bc of how weird it was, i still show it to my friends and tell them about why
BTW, I think you'd do great if you did a doc on the troubled production of 'The Black Cauldron', or maybe a whole list of forgotten Disney films. =)
This is really a sad story. One man pours years of passion and hard work into a labour of love, only for it to be taken by corporate money men, chewed up and spat out.
But I have to think that Williams was being a bit naive. A feature length project like this needs a ton of money and a stable distribution. The uncomfortable fact is that art can't be made for free. Artists need to pay their bills and buy food, and someone needs to do work to put the art into the world.
That's probably why so many companies run by creatives end up failing. Though no one likes them, there needs to be a guy to keep the ledgers in order and balance the books. Otherwise the creatives can't keep making their art.
but WB was being cheap and expected the entire film to be finished in just a year
From what I understand, Howard Ashman was the impetus for bringing Aladdin to Disney, so I don't think Thief & Cobbler had much influence on that decision. Ashman had played Aladdin in his youth and was anxious to have a crack at it.
15:29 Don’t forget “Far Longer Than Forever” by Regina Belle and Jeffrey Osborne, also a banger.
I remember seeing the different cuts promoted, and I would be confused. Today, that confusion would be called the Mandela effect. Lol.
what i learned from this is that i probably watched your amvs
I've been sitting here the entire video having crazy flashbacks of this movie. I couldn't figure out where/when I saw it. It was like a fever dream... Till the froot loops!!!!!! Omg that's exactly how I watched this crazy movie 🤣🤣
0:28 his animated masterpiece about a fucking cobbler
Nothing major to add, but I did see a trailer for this, it was in the UK showing before Predator 2 and looked phenomenal on the big screen.
Great video.
In France we also have a huge anime movie, "Le roi et l'oiseau" from Paul Grimault.
I watched the Marimax Version of The Thief and the Cobbler on VHS and DVD a lot as a kid. Still glad a fan made version of Richard Williams Film is still beautiful dispute being incomplete.
I remember seeing it as a little kid and just thinking it was an Aladdin rip off. It wasn’t until years later I learned the story behind it and how it got butchered. There’s no way of knowing what the original vision would have been, but it would have been his vision.
I think I still have my Thief and the Cobler VHS in my collection
This is not the only movie that faced a lot of problems. There was also Freddie the Frog (Also called Freddie as F.R.O.7) and A Fish Tale (Also known as HELP! I'm a Fish).
The fan edit was worth watching.
This is a minor nitpick; but Cartoon Network debuted in 1992, not 1994.
Wow, never heard of this before so this was interesting, thank you!
This reminds me of the 1973 movie Hugo the Hippo. Very detailed strange animated movie.
The animation is beyond insane quality wise
I wonder if Richard Williams and Miyazaki ever met or had any opinions on each other. Both of them seem to be perfectionists and dislike their industries but love their craft. I feel like Richard might be slightly nicer though. If you watch his lectures he makes a lot of jokes and isn't as serious as Miyazaki so I was a bit surprised when I heard he fired animators for not being good enough though I could understand it if this was his one chance at making his very own magnum opus
I don’t know when or how, but I saw this a kid. I remember the cobbler and the nails in his mouth.
LOL in 2011 I did my final presentation for my film study class on this movie. And the funny thing is I've never actually seen the film because my presentation was on the cobbler cut and it's the only version I've ever seen😂
From my perspective, the ultimate burn in all of this is the fact that, when Miramax got their been-too-many-places hands on this film, they proceeded to go full Disney wannabe and retitled it Arabian *Knight.* As in, just two letters off from the Aladdin song titled Arabian *Nights.*
You know, Nathan Lane had a point - “up until now, I thought Monsters Inc was a documentary on the Weinsteins.” Eminem wishes his disses were that accurate
As a kid I had the Miramax version on VHS. I would constantly watch either that or Aladdin if I was craving an Arabian adventure lol. It would be great to see some version of this movie to be released on blu ray or 4k but Im still waiting or Titan A.E. to get a blu ray release, let alone the thief and the cobbler.
Zig zag is voiced by a sadly long deceased classic veteran actor. Vincent price. Rest in peace price Vincent the fictional greatest criminal mindddd. Lol
Nowadays Williams could've gotten the film crowd funded... The irony!
My sister and I used to love this movie.
I hate to say this, but - Richard Williams didn't know when enough was enough. As spectacular as his animation was, he kept going off on interminable sidetracks. The War Machine sequence may have been an amazing achievement, but as a viewing experience, it stops being funny about halfway through. The South African cut of that scene is actually more entertaining. I don't say Miramax did the movie any favors, but the whole thing NEEDED editing.
That song for Oblivion slaps! 😎
Be thankful that you don't live in a timeline where the film wasn't botched up even further by 4kids to be released as a featurette to coincide with Pokemon: The First Movie in 1999.
I bet every other person who watched it in streaming for the first time thought it was meant to be a quaint B direct to video Aladdin rip off
Thanks for the amazing video Matt ❤️
Please do a deep dive on the hatchet books!
This story is a tragic story and moral lesson on what happens if you take to long to make the perfect vision and company to trust.
Yeah, I'm gonna need you to make a My Chemical Romance X Kiki's Delivery Service AMV please. Thanks.
Well I love this move ❤
Not me always biting back the urge to go OFF on a tangent about this film any time anyone mentions Roger Rabbit.
Most of the animators on heavy metal worked on this movie.
This movie was supposed to be Avatar, the James Cameron version, not the Nickelodeon cartoon, long before Avatar even came out
You could do a video about the Alien franchise.
You'll never guess what the next video is
The Recobbled Cut crew are just going to end up making their own animation studio and then spend the next 20 years finishing the thing themselves, aren't they?
well if they formed their own animation studio that would be great but all they need to do is add ink and paint to the unfinished scenes and hire Maurice LaMarche to takeover Vincent Price's unused dialogue plus quite possibly hire Alan Silvestri or Bruce Broughton to be the music composer
I know this movie as the thief and the cobbler.
So the films went from Richard Williams, to Warner Bros, to Allied, to Miramax, to 4kids???
15:21 You should have put Can You Feel the Love Tonight by Elton John.