My great uncle George Allen was an engineer on the Challengers out of Binghamton. Loved hearing his stories!,and got to ride on a diesel switcher with him before he retired in the 70's after nearly 50 years on the D&H.......
The D&H steam locomotives were incredible. My dad still tells us stories about them from when he lived in Unadilla and his grandfather was the D&H station agent. Great video and sound. I wish it could be re-scanned for hi-def viewing.
I thought for sure this was going to be some lame slideshow, but it turned out to be some awesome movie footage, with sound no less! What a pleasant surprise!
cousin brucie As a10year kid we used to spend vacations on Lake Champlain. and i would lie in my bed and watch the 4-8-4s northerns come up the lake on the way to Montreal. fire boxes open firmen shoveling coal, no stokers in those days, During the day i'd put my pennies or nickels on the tracks. I can still hear the whistle of the locos coming thru the rock cut just north of Dresden station. Standing 15 feet away from 80 in drivers was impressive .
I grew up down the road from the old Delaware & Hudson Railroad. Would have loved to see it back in time. Oneonta has such a rich Railroad past but often forgotten or unknown.
this video is absolutely awesome. This was just a few years before I was born so I missed these years in person. I not only gave this a thumbs up but, added it to my favorites as well. Thank you for sharing this. Tom
I enjoy seeing the older freight and passenger equipment as much as the steam locomotives. Cars you only find smaller versions of on model railroads today. Some railroads might hassle railfans with the police these days for taking videos of trains, but if it weren't for the past rail enthusiasts taking photos and movies at trackside years ago much of the visual rail history during the steam age we enjoy today would have been lost forever.
Wow! What an awesome collection of vintage locomotives. I really wish I could see one of these steam by South Junction or through Rouses Pt. today. Thank you for sharing.
My mind is blown! I’ve been looking for pre-1980s vintage footage on #3985 or #3977 with no luck, yet suddenly I’m seeing a bunch of Challengers running around in my home state! I can’t believe it😍
Awesome footage, ery well done in the editing. I remember the D&H coming into Montreal (in the diesel age), but more so, steam locomotives, which were all around when I was growing up. In the 1940s & 50s. D&H was always a class act, even upon its demise, mostly caused by Conrail.
These were filmed by Fred McCleod and Blackhawk sold these in 16mm sound and 8mm silent. But the sound versions are awesome. I recall contacting Dave Shepard who had custody of the Blackhawk negatives and made some new prints for the NRHS film archives.
You can follow the D&H "freight main" along NY route 7 from Binghamton north. It is N&S trackage now but most of the stations are still there and some were converted
Dang I live near Saratoga right near where some of these shots were taken! So weird to think that instead of CP diesels steam engines used to be everywhere!
Question for D&H steam experts: on the rebuilt 0-8-8-0s with no visible sand domes, where was the sand carried and where were the ports for loading it? They sure must have needed it in helper service.And how did it get it in front of the drivers? Gravity or compressed air?
Does anyone know if it was the D&H practice for trains picking up a helper to uncouple the caboose, then couple the caboose to the rear of the helper? Most roads had a rule against shoving an occupied caboose, so the crew in the caboose rode on the helper, making this time-consuming rearrangement unnecessary.
Wait so most of this audio was recorded with the video. That's pretty cool especially since(I'm assuming this was the 20s-40s) Idk just making a guess.
I’d say early 1950s. One Saratoga shot showed the train on a high fill with little vegetation. It looks like the Ballston Spa relocation project, which was in about 1950. My house is along the line. It is in the mile stretch between the Saratoga and Ballston relocation projects.
No, these are real audio, made by Fred McLeod, a Pittsburgh area railfan who was photographing steam with 16mm sound-on-film equipment during the post-WW2 decade. You can also tell because the steam from the whistle, when visible, is right in synch with the audible blasts.
Greatdome99 That’s about it. The helper has to use his head though. If there are lots of empty cars just ahead of him, or he could push the cars right off the track. On the coal trains just push as hard as you can. Besides the whistle signals, the helper must watch the air gauge. He can see if the head end is applying brakes. Knowledge of the line is also important for the helper to know what to do. An example would be in Worcester, NY. Northbound trains were often pushed out of Oneonta. There was a bypass line with a steady grade between Schenevus and the summit between E. Worcester and Richmondville. This bypass was abandoned and parts of I-88 are on its roadbed. If for some reason the train ran the original line, which is what is still used, there is a big sag through Worcester. The helper would know to shut off or cut back some there.
I don't think they look typically built by the big 4 British companies. But British locos built for export by North British, Vickers or Peacocks were built in a very similar style. Also I think they look more French as they also put a capuchon around the chimney top. I love the brutal beauty of the big north American locos. Hi to all steam buffs from the UK.
Max Medaglia. I always think Max, how much we owe these men who had the foresight and the huge pleasure to record these great events in our history. I only wish I could have stood next to them. Thank goodness for u tube so we can all share them, cheers!
Looks like a very expensive operation with steam. Think of all the facilities and trades involved for a short haul railroad with anthracite and New England industries dying when this video was shot. Diesels must have been a very real benefit to the bottom line. No steam was saved but D&H did have pride, later on operating Baldwin sharks and Alco PAs in striking paint for a few years.
Luke Roman That's because many of those cabooses were made of wood. There have been incidents where a wooden caboose was crushed between a heavy freight train and a pusher engine, often with deadly results for anyone that was in it. Those 2 challengers have a combined peak tractive effort of 188000 lbs. If you put a wood caboose with a wood frame between those locomotives and the rest of train, the Conductor and Brakeman might not even make it out of the yard alive.
Those "pushers" are helpers that were only used on inclines so the train wouldn't get stuck or bogged down. They were not a part of the train manifest. Once the train was over the crest of the hill, the helpers go back down to the bottom of the hill to wait for the next freight train to do it again. This was and still is a common practice on roads with steep grades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_engine
I have to ask. How were the K-62's (the 4-8-4s) able to pull 140 cars at that speed without help? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's fucking awesome! But...how?
Considering that freight cars were lighter back then, it probably weighed around 2,000-4,000 tons. Still cool to see considering the amount of cars though.
@@stephenheath8465 the only PRR and NYC steamers that survived were by deception, it seems! A waste to be certain. That scrap value didn't save them from failure, sadly. Say what you will about the U.K., but they saved a lot of their classic steam locomotives.
But there has to be full size replicas of all the D&H Steam Locomotives except for the one that were failures. And some will be on display and operational.
Jason Matthew this is the least favorable part of railroad history for me , the D & H steam locomotives at least from my study were not standard railroad designs but standard designs of the D & H which as you know were influenced by Mr. Loree , but I hear your sentiment , those challengers of the D & H were workhorses and deserved to be preserved , if I had the room to model this railroad I would definitely model this division so I can run those challengers and keep the memory alive for future generations , great post.
I'm very mad at the Delaware and Hudson they were very mean to steam they should have preserved 20 steam engines or more but they just wanted to scrap all there steam except some tenders and a replica of the strawbridge lion even the Lehigh valley was going to preserve 1 steam engine which was a 4-8-4 I forget the town's name but they didn't want it so it got scrapped there is a rumor that the Lehigh valley had a steam engine go to the world fair which was a 4-4-2 1279 I think it's still alive of today but the Delaware and Hudson could have at least preserve their k-62 there 2-8-0 4-6-6-4 they could have preserved at least a lot of other challengers and they would have been really famous and maybe one of them could have dressed up as 3985 or just did excursions
The great news is the beautiful, gorgeous #3985 is coming back! They are working hard on her rebuild in Silvis IL right now. Cozy news is finding this video of all her older sisters!
@@SweetSunrising I know and I'm happy but I really like the Delaware and Hudson challengers and I wish they were they were surviving I'm more interested of steam trains in the northeast especially the Delaware and Hudson
Great video of a lost time., thanks for presentation, from Germany
My great uncle George Allen was an engineer on the Challengers out of Binghamton. Loved hearing his stories!,and got to ride on a diesel switcher with him before he retired in the 70's after nearly 50 years on the D&H.......
Those were the days. What a fine railroad! Thanks so much for the film.
The D&H steam locomotives were incredible. My dad still tells us stories about them from when he lived in Unadilla and his grandfather was the D&H station agent. Great video and sound. I wish it could be re-scanned for hi-def viewing.
How amazing.
I thought for sure this was going to be some lame slideshow, but it turned out to be some awesome movie footage, with sound no less! What a pleasant surprise!
Love watching old steam engines and also looking at the vintage cars and trucks.
Thank you very much for a really great video I'm a long time D&H fan since the 80's
cousin brucie
As a10year kid we used to spend vacations on Lake Champlain. and i would lie in my bed and watch the 4-8-4s northerns come up the lake on the way to Montreal. fire boxes open firmen shoveling coal, no stokers in those days, During the day i'd put my pennies or nickels on the tracks. I can still hear the whistle of the locos coming thru the rock cut just north of Dresden station. Standing 15 feet away from 80 in drivers was impressive
.
My dad was an engineer on that railroad when I was a kid living in Oneonta.
I grew up down the road from the old Delaware & Hudson Railroad. Would have loved to see it back in time. Oneonta has such a rich Railroad past but often forgotten or unknown.
this video is absolutely awesome. This was just a few years before I was born so I missed these years in person. I not only gave this a thumbs up but, added it to my favorites as well. Thank you for sharing this. Tom
Great demonstration of the lost art of using a tripod.
I enjoy seeing the older freight and passenger equipment as much as the steam locomotives. Cars you only find smaller versions of on model railroads today. Some railroads might hassle railfans with the police these days for taking videos of trains, but if it weren't for the past rail enthusiasts taking photos and movies at trackside years ago much of the visual rail history during the steam age we enjoy today would have been lost forever.
Wow! What an awesome collection of vintage locomotives. I really wish I could see one of these steam by South Junction or through Rouses Pt. today.
Thank you for sharing.
What great movie clips. Thank you.
More than nice - totally amazing ... especially since i'm building a D&H 4-6-6-4 in HO ... Thanks so much for posting this ... Denny
Awesome video. Thanks, such strong and beautiful machinee. Really miss them.
My Grandfather was a D&H engineer from the late 1940's to the early 1970's. His name was John Nemetz from Scranton PA.
Fantastic, simply fantastic! 👍👌👏😍
140 cars given a 40 foot average length comes out to a little over a mile in length. Not bad for a 4-8-4!
It’s also worth noting that the D&H Northerns were among the lightest and least powerful of their wheel arrangement
Imagine if a single diesel or electric tried to pull that amount of cars at once.
Well one steam engine pulled more cars then that and that goes to union pacific 3985
But if a diesel pulled 140 cars it will be tired
@Rob Stewart it'd go pretty well because modern diesels are stronger pulling than steam locomotives
Wow this was Fantastic! I didn't know footage of the D&H's Challengers existed!
Wow! I did not know the D&H had Challengers! Great vdo!
My mind is blown! I’ve been looking for pre-1980s vintage footage on #3985 or #3977 with no luck, yet suddenly I’m seeing a bunch of Challengers running around in my home state! I can’t believe it😍
Amazing footage! thanks for sharing!
Great footage Scott, thanks for sharing!
Excellent video...thanks for sharing!
Awesome footage, ery well done in the editing. I remember the D&H coming into Montreal (in the diesel age), but more so, steam locomotives, which were all around when I was growing up. In the 1940s & 50s. D&H was always a class act, even upon its demise, mostly caused by Conrail.
4-8-4 + 140 cars = WOW!
I know! And the K-62s are still probably the smallest Northerns I've seen in the country. They must've packed some power!
Keep in mind that was the 40 foot car era
Union pacific 3985 pulled more cars than that like 143 they were all double stacked well cars and they are fully loaded
They have a powerful tractive effort, that’s why I believe Steam is stronger than diesel
@@Im_TheLineageLifter and geuss what DM&IR 2-8-8-4 234 pulled a 180 car long train on September 30th 1957
Ahh... the old classic steam engines
There's still plenty of steam on the D&H before the diesels took over.
These were filmed by Fred McCleod and Blackhawk sold these in 16mm sound and 8mm silent. But the sound versions are awesome. I recall contacting Dave Shepard who had custody of the Blackhawk negatives and made some new prints for the NRHS film archives.
You can follow the D&H "freight main" along NY route 7 from Binghamton north. It is N&S trackage now but most of the stations are still there and some were converted
Dang I live near Saratoga right near where some of these shots were taken! So weird to think that instead of CP diesels steam engines used to be everywhere!
So the twin lines are the same track that use to run through Carbondale before they dug up the one in the mid 1980s.
90lb. rail and 200 ton behemoths now they have 130lb. rail and 112 ton locomotives but it takes three of them.
Question for D&H steam experts: on the rebuilt 0-8-8-0s with no visible sand domes, where was the sand carried and where were the ports for loading it? They sure must have needed it in helper service.And how did it get it in front of the drivers? Gravity or compressed air?
It seams that the D&H had a very european style of steam locomotive, especially with their elephant ears smoke deflectors.
Does anyone know if it was the D&H practice for trains picking up a helper to uncouple the caboose, then couple the caboose to the rear of the helper? Most roads had a rule against shoving an occupied caboose, so the crew in the caboose rode on the helper, making this time-consuming rearrangement unnecessary.
That was cool.
A 16mm sound RR film GEM ! THANKS
Wait so most of this audio was recorded with the video. That's pretty cool especially since(I'm assuming this was the 20s-40s) Idk just making a guess.
I’d say early 1950s. One Saratoga shot showed the train on a high fill with little vegetation. It looks like the Ballston Spa relocation project, which was in about 1950. My house is along the line. It is in the mile stretch between the Saratoga and Ballston relocation projects.
It said at the very beginning that all footage was from 1951-52.
Cool vid
The 4-8-4 looks like a FEF-3
What if the Delaware & Hudson had preserved most of their steam locomotives?
Then the railroad would be old
@@amtrakproductions-mx9ib What do you mean?
@@nathancorcoran5347 the president of the D&H didn't want any steam locomotives to be preserved from delaware and hudson
I think the sound was dubbed in after the film was made. Either way, it is a very nice, historically important film.
No, these are real audio, made by Fred McLeod, a Pittsburgh area railfan who was photographing steam with 16mm sound-on-film equipment during the post-WW2 decade. You can also tell because the steam from the whistle, when visible, is right in synch with the audible blasts.
nice vidéo
i always wonder how the last /tail locomotive engineer knew how much speed to use to push the rest of the train?
Push as hard as you can. The lead engineer used its whistle to tell the rear to ease up when stopping.
Greatdome99 That’s about it. The helper has to use his head though. If there are lots of empty cars just ahead of him, or he could push the cars right off the track. On the coal trains just push as hard as you can.
Besides the whistle signals, the helper must watch the air gauge. He can see if the head end is applying brakes. Knowledge of the line is also important for the helper to know what to do. An example would be in Worcester, NY. Northbound trains were often pushed out of Oneonta. There was a bypass line with a steady grade between Schenevus and the summit between E. Worcester and Richmondville. This bypass was abandoned and parts of I-88 are on its roadbed. If for some reason the train ran the original line, which is what is still used, there is a big sag through Worcester. The helper would know to shut off or cut back some there.
5:26 sounds like a N&W Class j or a UP FEF. What type of whistle is that?
Is a Hancock 3 Chime whistle
bizi çok uzaklara götürdün.. teşekkurler sjwhitney.. çok
These engines on the d&h feel much more foreign than any other roads in America. Anyone else think that?
Quasimoto7
They kinda remind me of LNER & LMS locos over in Britain but on a much larger scale.
I don't think they look typically built by the big 4 British companies. But British locos built for export by North British, Vickers or Peacocks were built in a very similar style. Also I think they look more French as they also put a capuchon around the chimney top. I love the brutal beauty of the big north American locos. Hi to all steam buffs from the UK.
Nice to meet you, Nigel.
Max Medaglia. I always think Max, how much we owe these men who had the foresight and the huge pleasure to record these great events in our history. I only wish I could have stood next to them. Thank goodness for u tube so we can all share them, cheers!
Agreed, mate!
Looks like a very expensive operation with steam. Think of all the facilities and trades involved for a short haul railroad with anthracite and New England industries dying when this video was shot. Diesels must have been a very real benefit to the bottom line. No steam was saved but D&H did have pride, later on operating Baldwin sharks and Alco PAs in striking paint for a few years.
Why have a caboose on after the pushers?
Luke Roman That's because many of those cabooses were made of wood. There have been incidents where a wooden caboose was crushed between a heavy freight train and a pusher engine, often with deadly results for anyone that was in it. Those 2 challengers have a combined peak tractive effort of 188000 lbs. If you put a wood caboose with a wood frame between those locomotives and the rest of train, the Conductor and Brakeman might not even make it out of the yard alive.
Good answer. I appreciate the incite.
Luke Roman No problem. Feel free to ask anymore questions if you like.
Those "pushers" are helpers that were only used on inclines so the train wouldn't get stuck or bogged down. They were not a part of the train manifest. Once the train was over the crest of the hill, the helpers go back down to the bottom of the hill to wait for the next freight train to do it again.
This was and still is a common practice on roads with steep grades.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_engine
This is why a few eastern roads...specifically the DL&W built hacks on old tender frames. They could handle the forces of having helper engines
I have to ask. How were the K-62's (the 4-8-4s) able to pull 140 cars at that speed without help? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's fucking awesome! But...how?
Considering that freight cars were lighter back then, it probably weighed around 2,000-4,000 tons. Still cool to see considering the amount of cars though.
Whoa! On the flats, they really had some power! Thanks!
So...how many intermodal well cars do you think they'd manage?
No problem!
I'm guessing around 50-80 (or even 100) on the flats.
The Union Pacific several years ago had a request for the challenger 3985 to haul one of its double stack trains,
It totaled 143 cars.
Were ANY D&H steamers preserved?
No
@@stephenheath8465 the only PRR and NYC steamers that survived were by deception, it seems! A waste to be certain. That scrap value didn't save them from failure, sadly.
Say what you will about the U.K., but they saved a lot of their classic steam locomotives.
The only major piece of a D&H steamer that still exists is a tender from a D&H Challenger, used as CP 2860’s aux water tender
But there has to be full size replicas of all the D&H Steam Locomotives except for the one that were failures. And some will be on display and operational.
The boss of the D&H didnt want any steamies from the railroad to be preserved but if any survived, then he'll be ded
Sadly my understanding is that all of the D&H steam power were scrapped
Jason Matthew this is the least favorable part of railroad history for me , the D & H steam locomotives at least from my study were not standard railroad designs but standard designs of the D & H which as you know were influenced by Mr. Loree , but I hear your sentiment , those challengers of the D & H were workhorses and deserved to be preserved , if I had the room to model this railroad I would definitely model this division so I can run those challengers and keep the memory alive for future generations , great post.
Well at least another northern reading 2102 was dressed up as D&H 4-8-4 302 to remember the steam trains of D&H
I'm very mad at the Delaware and Hudson they were very mean to steam they should have preserved 20 steam engines or more but they just wanted to scrap all there steam except some tenders and a replica of the strawbridge lion even the Lehigh valley was going to preserve 1 steam engine which was a 4-8-4 I forget the town's name but they didn't want it so it got scrapped there is a rumor that the Lehigh valley had a steam engine go to the world fair which was a 4-4-2 1279 I think it's still alive of today but the Delaware and Hudson could have at least preserve their k-62 there 2-8-0 4-6-6-4 they could have preserved at least a lot of other challengers and they would have been really famous and maybe one of them could have dressed up as 3985 or just did excursions
The great news is the beautiful, gorgeous #3985 is coming back! They are working hard on her rebuild in Silvis IL right now. Cozy news is finding this video of all her older sisters!
@@SweetSunrising I know and I'm happy but I really like the Delaware and Hudson challengers and I wish they were they were surviving I'm more interested of steam trains in the northeast especially the Delaware and Hudson
👍
Lol