It’s only that I’m a regular viewer of the channel, that I found those cringe moments in the intro as amusing. As a truck driver, I’m very aware of the rubber I leave on hard surfaces, especially while making tighter turns. It’s so frustrating hearing the same old arguments against new technologies. I’m looking forward to a better way to transport goods and people and I hope to be a part of the transition as a driver.
I love the way that ICE engine manufacturers, lobbyists, "paid for politicians", invested third parties, Big Oil, and Big Auto, are SUDDENLY so concerned about the environment. Because, for more than a century, they didn't a flying shit................
My favorite part about this particular brand of FUD is that the people likely to regurgitate it are often the SAME people who's favorite pasttime is doing (or watching) burnouts. Literally just turning brand new tires into smoke and particulates in a couple of seconds FOR FUN. I would also like to point out that in my personal experience, excessive tire wear can happen because of things like tire alignment, improper inflation, not rotating, and the big one: cheap tires. Those WalMart "Discount Tire Store" tires I bought in desperation once were bald in SIX MONTHS while the older tires on the same vehicle were still going strong. What volume of particulates is caused by cheap tires intended to wear out fast and cost the customer more in the long term?
I would have thought that regenerative breaking would have significantly reduced tyre wear, and brake dust which is another particulate emission source.
@@fonkenful Overall EV’s are still less polluting. Plus they use a lot less oil for lubrication. Maintenance is lower which also reduces pollution somewhere along the cycle.
@@davidlazarus67 Preaching to the choir, brother David. I just have to convince my wife that a Subaru Forester is more than she needs for a daily driver; but after just spending over $50k on a long overdue home reno, our retirement fund is presently a little anemic, and the Subbie might last at least another 5 years. Of course, that might give us some time to see prices settle down to reasonable levels for what we’d need. 🤞 We’re currently vacationing in Bermuda with our daughter, and they’ve been running an i3 for 6 years, and have spent a total of $500 on “tune ups”, plus whatever a new set of tires cost. They also have installed sufficient roof top solar power that they have actually accrued a credit with BELCO - of coincidentally a like amount to their cost of maintenance. Our son back in Canada also had one for a few years, but found the limited range a problem for his use case. It should be noted that Bermuda is a tiny country - much smaller overall than the Saanich Peninsula on lower Vancouver Island - so there are times when range is an issue.
Why should regen braking reduce tyre wear? A given braking force should produce the same amount of tyre wear whether it is provided by electrical or mechanical mechanisms.
@@xxwookey It might reduce it a little because the braking isn't done by humans and thus provides a more controlled stop, however, I wouldn't think it would be much.
Rubber tires are #2 behind textiles for microplastic pollution. It’s a huge problem the car industry has refused to address in a century. As Clarkson once famously said: you can’t solve the problem of conspicuous consumption with more conspicuous consumption. Tk save the environment we’ve got to come up with a solution for rubber tires. I think it can be done, we can use metal roads and metal wheels and maybe call it a “train”
It was trains and their egotistical monopoly that encouraged the personal car. I get it - FREEDOM. However, we shouldn't be riding round in Ford Exhorbitants... A bicycle is a good personal choice...
re: "I think it can be done, we can use metal roads and metal wheels and maybe call it a “train”. sadly there's little relief to be found in that solution either. no you wouldn't think it at first, but there is indeed "particulate matter" generated from steel wheels running against steel rails. this has been a KNOWN problem in City Subway and Transit Systems (think NYC, Wash DC, London) with chronic exposure coming from commuters simply standing on underground platforms. professional welders also know about "Metal Disease" (my buddy contracted Lung Cancer). not sure of the interval...? but same as brake rotors, the wheels on train cars DO wear out and need to be changed so that material is ALSO going into the environment.
It's really sad that people buy into this nonsense. I'm sure particulates are not great, but compared to CO2s impact on climate change, and noxious gasses impact on public health there is not comparison, and of course, ICE cars have tires as well.
In USA all the heavy SUVs are cleverly never mentioned as the heavy tire wearers they are or the lack of keeping any vehicles tires properly inflated, again impacting wear.
When I had an EV it was notable that there was hardly any brake dust on my wheels and therefore the part of the report I heard about on brakes is totally spurious. I now have an automatic Mercedes SLK and the wheels on that are always covered in brake dust within a couple of weeks of washing my car.
the original story said that the higher weight causes greater tire wear on EV leading to greater particulate emissions than the gas engine. Seems like a clear FUD story, because even if true, as you said there are also the tire particulate emissions on ICE car in addition to CO, CO2, etc.
I notice my Tesla at 4600 pounds is pretty much the same as the Explorer on the other side of the driveway at 4600 pounds. I had 60,000 miles on the Michelin tires that came with it and I bought Continental tires at Les Schwab that now have 34,000 miles and are still fine. I only got the tires to spin one time so far in my ownership and that was on wet cold pavement while making a sharp turn while accelerating hard. I do like accelerating, but I have a slow Tesla at 5 seconds, so I guess I don't have to go to the tire store as often.
Interesting video but not surprising that a study makes all kinds of claims, and regardless of its accuracy it gets sucked up by the news media. I get told constantly that EVs 'arent quite there yet' by people who have never owned one and they must get their inaccurate information from somewhere. Loving the Manilow cover version btw Kate 😹👍
When I read the press release I questioned the methodology of the study. If I understood it correctly, the study was carried out by driving cars along roads and measuring the particulates thrown up behind the tyres. I wondered what percentage of the particulates hoovered up were already there from other vehicles. Unless the roads were pristine clean, there would be cross pollution from those other cars on the road. Should I point out that it is the time of year that dodgy 'studies' are published in the hope of a Grant for next years study?
The only way to tell, is weigh the tires new, then, weigh the tires again when it's replaced. Keep in mind, some loss will be volatiles from aging, as well as tread being worn off during driving. Divide the weight loss by the number of miles on the tires.
@@vincentrobinette1507In the full article it does describe weighing the tyres, which of course gives a total loss over time. But the results depend on variables such as driving style and road surface, etc. It will not give a definitive 'pollution' rate for a particular Tyre, The is little doubt that tyre deposits contribute to ill health in cities and should be addressed, but this study does little to further that goal.
Very clear that we are in the early days of studying this issue and at the moment testing and categorizing more vehicles and their tires is needed to develop a database that can help distinguish best in class tire performance and then develop regulations from there including the analysis of cost effectiveness
And we really need to stress that they compared the amount of DUST that comes out of a gasoline car's exhaust with an EV's tire dust. Gasoline engines are not particularly known for producing soot. Their speciality is gases...
My Kona EVs tyres are still original from new at the back after 63k miles. Fronts, that do the majority of the braking and all the accelerating are lasting about 30k miles. That's actually considerably less wear than any ice car I've ever owned, and that's before you consider that I'm still on the original brake discs and pads too.
very true...If it's wheel dust that they're concerned about, it's EV's and Hybrids for the win, because of their regenerative braking. The savings in brake dust more than compensate for any slight difference in tire wear due to vehicle weight.
You are the best! 🤣 Also, very interesting topic. I'm curious to see if we get more focus on particulate emissions when range and maybe friction (with self-driving) is less of a concern.
What I would be interested in is how would the new airless tires that seem to be expected to last for many years fit into reducing this issue even farther?
Just an observation after 6 months of driving my XC40 dual motor compared to other cars, the traction control on this car is so smooth that you never "chirp" the wheels no matter how hard you floor it and you dont even feel the traction control working (which I only do as a party trick when someone who has never been in an EV hops in) even on dirt this thing can be a rocket ship accelerating. yep a boring conservative white volvo SUV. This is possibly going to reduce tyre wear under similar circumstances
Great video Kate. I don’t think we will know the real answer until they test ICE and BEV versions of the same car, such as the Hyundai Ionic sedan or the Volvo XC40. If the next study does not do this, then we know it’s not genuinely seeking the truth. The white car tearing around the racetrack was a Fox body Mustang, not a Toyota Supra. Putting my anorak away now.
Back in the 60s scientists calculated that (given the number of vehicles on the road and the amount of rubber lost over an average tire’s life) there, at that time, should be mounds of tire particles 12 ft high on each side of the road. Obviously, that wasn’t happening and on further investigation they found an abundant microbe that eats tire dust like candy. Yeah there are many more cars on the road now, but I still haven’t noticed swirling clouds of tire dust nor tall piles of rubber on the roadsides. Those microbes apparently haven’t given up indulging their sweet tooth habit.
I need more info on this. Unfortunately info is hard to come by, search results being manipulated to show only studies about tire microplastics emissions being an impending doomsday scenario. Do you happen to have some?
@@hyperlogos Yep. I'm sure the article I read was based strictly on a volume calculation rather than a discussion of reality - locations, weather, environmental impact, etc.
Because my 2015 Nissan Leaf has a limited range per charge I am less likely to drive it hard and long distances. As a result I so happen to go through fewer tires.
If weight is such an issue in this case, they should maybe be concerned that average vehicle weights have increased significantly regardless of drive train.
Overall smooth driving to save range and allowing the car to slow smoothly definitely has a positive impact on tire wear. That said, even in my leaf which has anemic acceleration compared with pricier models I get a kick from mashing the pedal and watching the ice cars disappear behind me. Usually I don't do this because it is both dangerous and wasteful and I realized immediately that it would wear down tires.
Cement tires! Worked for the Flintstones Wooden tires! Worked for the pioneers! Metal tires! Worked for trains! Fiberglass-plastic hybrid tires! Maybe it works ... we gotta try!
0:07 that is one of several reasons why i call it farcebook. the people there pretend to be scientists but don't have any clue about the stuff they're blabbering about. dunning-kruger at its finest. the summit of mount stupid must be very crowded by now... 3:19 also, let's not forget that ICE cars produce a lot more brake dust because they depend on their brakes a lot more than electric cars, ESPECIALLY if the petrolhead drives like an idiot. DING! at work we have a couple of gas forklifts and one electric one. when i drive one of the gas monsters, my left foot is always on or above the brake pedal because i regularly need those brakes. on the electric one i do one-pedal driving, and the brakes are only for emergency stops. 6:50 adding a 500kg battery? and what about removing the several-hundred-kg piston engine and gearbox? they didn't take that into account, did they? 7:20 you know where your towel is, don't you? :-)
I always thought that the super-small tire particulates were consumed by microbes in the environment, otherwise we would constantly be driving around in big billowing clouds of tire dust.
Euro 7 is addressing tires and brake dust on EVERYTHING BUT it’s pretty unlikely tires and brakes won’t continue to wear Heavy footed drivers of EVERYTHING make more Dust
EV's (and hybrids) emit much less brake dust, because of regenerative braking. That reduction in brake dust more than compensates for the difference in tire particulates, due to vehicle weight. If wheel dust is what they're concerned about, it's EV's for the win!
I suppose we don't really know for sure that Emissions Analytics didn't test EV real world tyre (tire) emissions... we just know that they did not include them in the report. I mean, it would be awfully inconvenient if an EV's tyre wear was basically the same as a fossil car when both are driven in a similar manner.
@@transportevolved Ah yes, I appreciate that. What I meant was, they might have (on another day, different "project") separately done more testing on real EVs, but the results just didn't add up to the message they were trying to convey about EVs being bad and all that. So they purposely didn't mention those results. Technically, outcomes that don't meet the intended narrative should also be included in all reports. But in reality, it's very easy to just leave them out. This (as I'm sure you're aware given your day job) can also be an issue in health studies, where many studies don't get published simply because they show nothing interesting.
60k miles? I had a 100bhp lightweight 1970's Mini. One time I got 4k miles from front tyres insyead of the usual 2k, and my mum dragged me to the doctor, to see if I needed a vitamin supplement!
Wait... So the study discovered that if you take a tire rated for a particular load and then load it to the max the rate of wear is dramatically increased. Wow! What a revelation. Perhaps we should fit tyres to our vehicles that are rated for the intended mass of the vehi... ah wait a minute 😉
with the benefits of regen braking it's really a wash (a "zero sum game") in my expert opinion. those paying attention to the larger auto industry will recall the temporary STOP SALE that occurred Dec 2020 in both CA and WA of high end variants of Chevrolet Camaros (SS, ZL1, 1LE) because of the levels of copper contained in the performance brake pads. the environmental mandate enacted by both those states back in 2010 was a phase out/reduction of copper to less than 0.5 percent. another FUN FACT Class 8 Tractor Trailers (representing the backbone of the Global Economy) generally have a GCVW of 80,000 lbs running a total of 18 tires with 10 brake assemblies. struggling with Cognitive Dissonance, one can try and "rationalize" it however they like, but the simple fact is so long as greedy/rapey Human Beings exist on the Earth, our collective impact on the Environment will invariably be a NET NEGATIVE no matter what we do. REF: "We Have Met the ENEMY and He is US..." - Pogo/Walter Kelly, 1987
Sure are a lot of FUDs out there. Can I suggest a video on noise pollution from tyres? Not Just Bikes did one and I think it is a topic worth discussing further.
Talking of particulates.... In Europe, emissions metrics are based on a per mile traveled but here, in USA, the metric is based on quantity of fuel consumed... So that begins to make even hybids a big question. Returning to tyres (tires), the electric vehicle having lower rolling resistance and being harder presumably creates less waste. Coupled with superior traction control of electric vehicles, the tire waste should be less...
Sometimes it makes my head spin on its shoulders when my friends tell me that they are going to check with their Uncle Fred the car dealer because he'd only have their best interest in mind. Uncle Fred tells them electric cars won't be ready for another 25 years. This next one happened to me just last week. I'm showing a friend online used electric vehicles in her price range and one of my co-workers who is a former car mechanic says she should abandon searching because you can't find a decent electric car for under $75,000.
Surprised by this video. Shouldn't we be happy that people are finally becoming informed about another serious form of pollution even if the argument is less than genuine?
Just thinking, surely this means that SUV's are even more crap - cos, that is the problem of weight. As J.T. noted, a Tesla model 3 is only 1.8 Tonnes, which is not much different from other cars of similar size. Whereas, all SUV cars are much heavier than this. So if rolling resistance is a problem, then the article should complain about heavy cars, not EV's. But that would not continue the narrative of the oil industry. I always look forward to your contribution's Kate cos you sarcasm really matches the FUD.
There is no reason that an EV should be any heavier than an ICE, apart from idiots buying excess range for that one trip a year, and the vehicle weight (not unsprung weight!) is the major factor on tire particulate emissions.
Unsprung weight is much worse than vehicle weight, because of shock loads on the tread on rough roads. Low unsprung weight keeps a more uniform load on the tires, reducing surface deformation. The most important things are maintaining proper wheel alignment, and inflation pressure.
One of the reasons we switched from natural rubber tires to synthetic rubber was that spilled gas and oil will dissolve natural rubber. the other of course was WWII cut us off from the rubber producers.No ice cars means no spilled gas and oil.Maybe we could go back to natural rubber.
The average total wearable tread weight of an automotive passenger tire. Is about 20-25% of the tires total overall weight. So you take that and divide it by the estimated miles you expect the tire to last. Doing that proves some of these crazy media fud figures means if the tire wore down that quickly? You'd be on the nylon belts in a matter of a few hundred miles. 😀
Merci for this. But in the fight to have the world adopt EV, we lost. I don't know if you've done a Fudbuster program on what I tweeted out to you about the Volvo study showing how many miles you have to drive in an EV before it's carbon footprint is better than an ICEV. I'm sure you seen this, I tweeted it to your channel. They have 3 categories for EV, a clean grid, a mixed one and a dirty coal driven electrical grid. But they only have one category for the petrol or diesel ICEV. I asked why they didn't have 3 different categories for the fracked oil and or bitumin from tar sands. I sent that out to Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Swiss ETH Lausanne and Zürich, as well as Volvo. I also talked with ETHL and with someone from Swiss media. The results? No response from the above akademic institutions. And the RTS did several reports about how we shouldn't move to EV specifically citing that they were worried about the electrical grid. They not only keep lying, but like in the tire report, they double down on the lying. Sigh.
The same logic leads to saying that planes have loads less particulates emissions as their Tues are less on the ground than a car... Focusing on one aspect usually means they want to obscure some dark fact.
For those who must drive a car, EVs are probably the best. But to make the massive reductions (i.e., not just halve, but make magnitudes less emissions) in emissions that are necessary, it's the inertia of car culture itself, that must be faced. If we can do that, we can also reclaim the space in our cities from things other than just storing cars and moving them with their (almost always) single occupant driver around.
I was shocked to see this headline in The Atlantic today. Don’t regular cars use the exact same tires?!? So misleading. Was this concept dragged in to the public discourse by oil lobbyists?
Today's large SUVs/P/Us are just as heavy as a EVs. A chevy Bolt is about 3,600 lbs. A Silverado is 4,500 lbs. The Trax 3,200 lbs. It really doesn't seem any heavier then any other vehicle out there. It just all FUD.
Tyres can go for 60,000 miles? nope. I have never seen tyres go that far. Drove a small car, large SUV, full size RWD, mid size FWD and AWD cars but never have I seen tyres go further than 25,000 miles. Some tyres even have 35,000 mile guarantees but still...
this is too unbelievably funny, so this study about EVs producing 1000s of times more tire particulates than fossil fuel burners was not even done with EVs but with emissions producing vehicles! wow!
They're all bad, if only there was a mode of transport that used steel wheels on an iron road, we could call it a "chemin de fer" in French. I'm sure Adam Something has something to say about this...
Also, and I'm sorry if this is boring, how come heavier vans, trucks, lorries etc.with ICE engines do not have a "particulate tyre problem" ? ( Answer - they always have had, but no-one speaks about the deadly diseases caused by ICE vehicles - because - MONEY ")
So we should just ban tyres from our roads. But wait our roads themselves are held together by the gunk at the bottom of the refinery's distillation column. This is the real issue, pretty well everything in our modern world is interconnected with everything else. Most plastics are made from crude oil so I doubt the oil companies are going to suffer too much if no one buys gasoline anymore. If we want a cleaner greener form of human transport it's been around longer than the automobile; The Train. Steel wheels on steel tracks have lower friction, don't seem to produce any particulates and being steel are 100% recyclable. Less private and more public transport is the best answer.
I have trouble believing a Bolt wears it's tires faster than something like a Suburban. I mean, if you're driving an electric Hummer, maybe but who does that?
And when they finally do test an EV sounds like people will need to double check the car is being driven in a realistic way rather than one step down from doing donuts and have the right tyres.
Without any evidence I am prepared to believe that the health impact of tyre particulates may equal that of fossil fuels for people living along major routes. More research should certainly be done on making “cleaner” tyres. However, the studies do not mention that the tar in “tar-sealed” roads may also be a significant source of particulate pollution. All of this makes great FUD doesn’t it? Let’s stop spinning our wheels make our tyres out of wood.
Don't give up your day job! Keep the singing for karaoke! I've seen a couple of tyre innovations to reduce tyres wearing over the years. One was to stop that large puff of rubber smoke when a large plane lands. Never taken up, yet it would have saved the airlines money and kept the tyres safer! Another was for retreading truck tyres, instead of stretching the need part 9ver the tyre it would compress it making it harder wearing and lasting longer costing less yet have never seen it taken up by the industry. Funny that.
I think Mentour Pilot did a video on why airplanes aren't equipped to spin up their wheels prior to landing, though I forget what his arguments were. As for harder wearing tires, it's easy to make them, but they tend to have poor grip - hardness being a tradeoff between the two. To complicate it further, hardness is affected by temperature, which is one of the reasons running on winter tires in summer is generally a bad idea (I've experienced myself how "squidgy" winter tires become when temperatures are 30C above their intended usage conditions). Reconditioning/resurfacing tires is done, or has been done as far as I know, but I'm guessing the economics of it aren't great...
@@koma-k Thank you for your considered reply. Unlike most I get, which are not. Here in OZ we don't need to go from summer to winter tyres due to climate. The harder retreading I saw was decades ago and only for large trucks and mainly for the trailers. Thanks for the input. Cheers from OZ!!
It seems to be a similar and repeated electric vehicles are bad because their batteries…. But then the same person seems to enjoy their smartphone and laptop which runs off on the same batteries just smaller ones. So why not attack the special tires, which would help any vehicle not just EVs!
So much fuss over the one type of pollution that really doesn’t trigger my asthma - that would be the NOX group of gasses. Of course it’s FUD. Study on reducing particulate pollution is valuable in its own right but is sod all to do with the damage ICE vehicles do compared to EVs.
It’s only that I’m a regular viewer of the channel, that I found those cringe moments in the intro as amusing. As a truck driver, I’m very aware of the rubber I leave on hard surfaces, especially while making tighter turns. It’s so frustrating hearing the same old arguments against new technologies. I’m looking forward to a better way to transport goods and people and I hope to be a part of the transition as a driver.
Another reason we need to build more rail transport. No tires, just steel. Very safe and efficient.
There is still break dust from trains... But that brings up the point that EVs generate far less brake dust than ICE cars because of regen braking.
@@patreekotime4578 Just as electric powered trains, especially passenger trains, that use regenerative braking produce less brake dust.
But trains suck at hills
LOL Okay Sheldon
I love the way that ICE engine manufacturers, lobbyists, "paid for politicians", invested third parties, Big Oil, and Big Auto, are SUDDENLY so concerned about the environment. Because, for more than a century, they didn't a flying shit................
Sudenly they even care about children work in Africa. This even though they kill children worldwide by exhausts. What an amazing world.
My favorite part about this particular brand of FUD is that the people likely to regurgitate it are often the SAME people who's favorite pasttime is doing (or watching) burnouts. Literally just turning brand new tires into smoke and particulates in a couple of seconds FOR FUN. I would also like to point out that in my personal experience, excessive tire wear can happen because of things like tire alignment, improper inflation, not rotating, and the big one: cheap tires. Those WalMart "Discount Tire Store" tires I bought in desperation once were bald in SIX MONTHS while the older tires on the same vehicle were still going strong. What volume of particulates is caused by cheap tires intended to wear out fast and cost the customer more in the long term?
I would have thought that regenerative breaking would have significantly reduced tyre wear, and brake dust which is another particulate emission source.
Beat me to it on brake particulates, but at least they’re no longer asbestos.
@@fonkenful Overall EV’s are still less polluting. Plus they use a lot less oil for lubrication. Maintenance is lower which also reduces pollution somewhere along the cycle.
@@davidlazarus67 Preaching to the choir, brother David. I just have to convince my wife that a Subaru Forester is more than she needs for a daily driver; but after just spending over $50k on a long overdue home reno, our retirement fund is presently a little anemic, and the Subbie might last at least another 5 years. Of course, that might give us some time to see prices settle down to reasonable levels for what we’d need. 🤞
We’re currently vacationing in Bermuda with our daughter, and they’ve been running an i3 for 6 years, and have spent a total of $500 on “tune ups”, plus whatever a new set of tires cost. They also have installed sufficient roof top solar power that they have actually accrued a credit with BELCO - of coincidentally a like amount to their cost of maintenance.
Our son back in Canada also had one for a few years, but found the limited range a problem for his use case. It should be noted that Bermuda is a tiny country - much smaller overall than the Saanich Peninsula on lower Vancouver Island - so there are times when range is an issue.
Why should regen braking reduce tyre wear? A given braking force should produce the same amount of tyre wear whether it is provided by electrical or mechanical mechanisms.
@@xxwookey It might reduce it a little because the braking isn't done by humans and thus provides a more controlled stop, however, I wouldn't think it would be much.
Rubber tires are #2 behind textiles for microplastic pollution. It’s a huge problem the car industry has refused to address in a century.
As Clarkson once famously said: you can’t solve the problem of conspicuous consumption with more conspicuous consumption. Tk save the environment we’ve got to come up with a solution for rubber tires. I think it can be done, we can use metal roads and metal wheels and maybe call it a “train”
It was trains and their egotistical monopoly that encouraged the personal car. I get it - FREEDOM. However, we shouldn't be riding round in Ford Exhorbitants... A bicycle is a good personal choice...
re: "I think it can be done, we can use metal roads and metal wheels and maybe call it a “train”. sadly there's little relief to be found in that solution either. no you wouldn't think it at first, but there is indeed "particulate matter" generated from steel wheels running against steel rails. this has been a KNOWN problem in City Subway and Transit Systems (think NYC, Wash DC, London) with chronic exposure coming from commuters simply standing on underground platforms. professional welders also know about "Metal Disease" (my buddy contracted Lung Cancer). not sure of the interval...? but same as brake rotors, the wheels on train cars DO wear out and need to be changed so that material is ALSO going into the environment.
@@phillyphil1513 More FUD.
Nancy, Play with your trains.
It's really sad that people buy into this nonsense. I'm sure particulates are not great, but compared to CO2s impact on climate change, and noxious gasses impact on public health there is not comparison, and of course, ICE cars have tires as well.
In USA all the heavy SUVs are cleverly never mentioned as the heavy tire wearers they are or the lack of keeping any vehicles tires properly inflated, again impacting wear.
When I had an EV it was notable that there was hardly any brake dust on my wheels and therefore the part of the report I heard about on brakes is totally spurious. I now have an automatic Mercedes SLK and the wheels on that are always covered in brake dust within a couple of weeks of washing my car.
It's pretty fantastical to put the two side by side. Maybe brake dust is the bigger problem?
Part of it is regen, part of it is that euro cars use metallic pads which stop aggressively and reduce fade but which eat rotors
the original story said that the higher weight causes greater tire wear on EV leading to greater particulate emissions than the gas engine. Seems like a clear FUD story, because even if true, as you said there are also the tire particulate emissions on ICE car in addition to CO, CO2, etc.
Also, tire particulates stay low to the ground while the ICE emissions are everywhere else
And they speculate that there are more particulates because EVs are heavier....so I'd suggest that most are coming from those heavy 18 wheelers
Fight FUD with FUD, ..seems reasonable.
Tire particles lay on the ground. You are breathing the crap from the tailpipe.
I notice my Tesla at 4600 pounds is pretty much the same as the Explorer on the other side of the driveway at 4600 pounds. I had 60,000 miles on the Michelin tires that came with it and I bought Continental tires at Les Schwab that now have 34,000 miles and are still fine. I only got the tires to spin one time so far in my ownership and that was on wet cold pavement while making a sharp turn while accelerating hard. I do like accelerating, but I have a slow Tesla at 5 seconds, so I guess I don't have to go to the tire store as often.
Interesting video but not surprising that a study makes all kinds of claims, and regardless of its accuracy it gets sucked up by the news media. I get told constantly that EVs 'arent quite there yet' by people who have never owned one and they must get their inaccurate information from somewhere. Loving the Manilow cover version btw Kate 😹👍
Consider the FUD busted, great episode. Also, love the Hitchhiker's Guide reference.
Another good analysis on an important topic, this FUDBusting serie is great! Thank you, Kate! 🔌⚡🚘
Kate, you are wonderful. thanks again for a great presentation.
When I read the press release I questioned the methodology of the study. If I understood it correctly, the study was carried out by driving cars along roads and measuring the particulates thrown up behind the tyres. I wondered what percentage of the particulates hoovered up were already there from other vehicles. Unless the roads were pristine clean, there would be cross pollution from those other cars on the road.
Should I point out that it is the time of year that dodgy 'studies' are published in the hope of a Grant for next years study?
The only way to tell, is weigh the tires new, then, weigh the tires again when it's replaced. Keep in mind, some loss will be volatiles from aging, as well as tread being worn off during driving. Divide the weight loss by the number of miles on the tires.
@@vincentrobinette1507In the full article it does describe weighing the tyres, which of course gives a total loss over time. But the results depend on variables such as driving style and road surface, etc. It will not give a definitive 'pollution' rate for a particular Tyre,
The is little doubt that tyre deposits contribute to ill health in cities and should be addressed, but this study does little to further that goal.
Very clear that we are in the early days of studying this issue and at the moment testing and categorizing more vehicles and their tires is needed to develop a database that can help distinguish best in class tire performance and then develop regulations from there including the analysis of cost effectiveness
And we really need to stress that they compared the amount of DUST that comes out of a gasoline car's exhaust with an EV's tire dust. Gasoline engines are not particularly known for producing soot. Their speciality is gases...
BOOM!
Love how quickly this vid came out after the Scotty Kilmer vid bashing EVs for this. People want any reason to say “EV bad.” It’s pretty sad.
Your singing really made me smile, thanks for another FUDbusting video Kate. 👍🏻
My Kona EVs tyres are still original from new at the back after 63k miles. Fronts, that do the majority of the braking and all the accelerating are lasting about 30k miles.
That's actually considerably less wear than any ice car I've ever owned, and that's before you consider that I'm still on the original brake discs and pads too.
very true...If it's wheel dust that they're concerned about, it's EV's and Hybrids for the win, because of their regenerative braking. The savings in brake dust more than compensate for any slight difference in tire wear due to vehicle weight.
When I go down a hill I regen, ICE brake, LOL Negative Nancys will learn, they are just a little slow.
Adding 500kg to a car is going to mess with the ride height and probably camber. Seems like a rather lazy way to test.
To do it right, they would need to load the car, then take it to an alignment shop and do a 4-wheel alignment with the added weight.
You are the best! 🤣 Also, very interesting topic. I'm curious to see if we get more focus on particulate emissions when range and maybe friction (with self-driving) is less of a concern.
What I would be interested in is how would the new airless tires that seem to be expected to last for many years fit into reducing this issue even farther?
Just an observation after 6 months of driving my XC40 dual motor compared to other cars, the traction control on this car is so smooth that you never "chirp" the wheels no matter how hard you floor it and you dont even feel the traction control working (which I only do as a party trick when someone who has never been in an EV hops in) even on dirt this thing can be a rocket ship accelerating. yep a boring conservative white volvo SUV. This is possibly going to reduce tyre wear under similar circumstances
Great video Kate. I don’t think we will know the real answer until they test ICE and BEV versions of the same car, such as the Hyundai Ionic sedan or the Volvo XC40. If the next study does not do this, then we know it’s not genuinely seeking the truth.
The white car tearing around the racetrack was a Fox body Mustang, not a Toyota Supra. Putting my anorak away now.
"The BMW i3 which sported skinny, little bicycle tyres for its front wheels." My bike, ebike and bike trailer, all took umbrage at that remark.
I was honestly expecting more pushback from i3 owners ;)
^Kate
Back in the 60s scientists calculated that (given the number of vehicles on the road and the amount of rubber lost over an average tire’s life) there, at that time, should be mounds of tire particles 12 ft high on each side of the road.
Obviously, that wasn’t happening and on further investigation they found an abundant microbe that eats tire dust like candy.
Yeah there are many more cars on the road now, but I still haven’t noticed swirling clouds of tire dust nor tall piles of rubber on the roadsides.
Those microbes apparently haven’t given up indulging their sweet tooth habit.
I need more info on this. Unfortunately info is hard to come by, search results being manipulated to show only studies about tire microplastics emissions being an impending doomsday scenario. Do you happen to have some?
It's small, it blows around, it winds up in waterways.
@@ujiltromm7358 Sorry. The article was a long time ago and I have no idea of the source
@@hyperlogos Yep. I'm sure the article I read was based strictly on a volume calculation rather than a discussion of reality - locations, weather, environmental impact, etc.
Great video. I am dying to hear what they say next about EV’s.
If tire (tyre) particulates is such a problem for the nay sayers, then maybe road usage should be costed based upon tire use!!!
Because my 2015 Nissan Leaf has a limited range per charge I am less likely to drive it hard and long distances. As a result I so happen to go through fewer tires.
If weight is such an issue in this case, they should maybe be concerned that average vehicle weights have increased significantly regardless of drive train.
Overall smooth driving to save range and allowing the car to slow smoothly definitely has a positive impact on tire wear. That said, even in my leaf which has anemic acceleration compared with pricier models I get a kick from mashing the pedal and watching the ice cars disappear behind me. Usually I don't do this because it is both dangerous and wasteful and I realized immediately that it would wear down tires.
Cement tires! Worked for the Flintstones
Wooden tires! Worked for the pioneers!
Metal tires! Worked for trains!
Fiberglass-plastic hybrid tires! Maybe it works ... we gotta try!
So where does all that rubber from vehicle tyres go?
But most important, great ear-rings.
Brilliant as usual.
Let’s also not mention all the fluids that inevitably leak out of ICE vehicles- transmission fluid, oil etc etc
0:07 that is one of several reasons why i call it farcebook. the people there pretend to be scientists but don't have any clue about the stuff they're blabbering about. dunning-kruger at its finest. the summit of mount stupid must be very crowded by now...
3:19 also, let's not forget that ICE cars produce a lot more brake dust because they depend on their brakes a lot more than electric cars, ESPECIALLY if the petrolhead drives like an idiot. DING!
at work we have a couple of gas forklifts and one electric one. when i drive one of the gas monsters, my left foot is always on or above the brake pedal because i regularly need those brakes. on the electric one i do one-pedal driving, and the brakes are only for emergency stops.
6:50 adding a 500kg battery? and what about removing the several-hundred-kg piston engine and gearbox? they didn't take that into account, did they?
7:20 you know where your towel is, don't you? :-)
I always thought that the super-small tire particulates were consumed by microbes in the environment, otherwise we would constantly be driving around in big billowing clouds of tire dust.
Euro 7 is addressing tires and brake dust on EVERYTHING BUT it’s pretty unlikely tires and brakes won’t continue to wear
Heavy footed drivers of EVERYTHING make more Dust
EV's (and hybrids) emit much less brake dust, because of regenerative braking. That reduction in brake dust more than compensates for the difference in tire particulates, due to vehicle weight. If wheel dust is what they're concerned about, it's EV's for the win!
@@vincentrobinette1507
It doesn’t matter EURO 7 looks at all personal transportation
I suppose we don't really know for sure that Emissions Analytics didn't test EV real world tyre (tire) emissions... we just know that they did not include them in the report.
I mean, it would be awfully inconvenient if an EV's tyre wear was basically the same as a fossil car when both are driven in a similar manner.
I contacted Emissions Analyics and was informed the testing was all performed on the C class Mercedes.
^Kate
@@transportevolved Ah yes, I appreciate that. What I meant was, they might have (on another day, different "project") separately done more testing on real EVs, but the results just didn't add up to the message they were trying to convey about EVs being bad and all that. So they purposely didn't mention those results.
Technically, outcomes that don't meet the intended narrative should also be included in all reports. But in reality, it's very easy to just leave them out. This (as I'm sure you're aware given your day job) can also be an issue in health studies, where many studies don't get published simply because they show nothing interesting.
60k miles?
I had a 100bhp lightweight 1970's Mini.
One time I got 4k miles from front tyres insyead of the usual 2k, and my mum dragged me to the doctor, to see if I needed a vitamin supplement!
Your car needed to be recycled
Wait... So the study discovered that if you take a tire rated for a particular load and then load it to the max the rate of wear is dramatically increased. Wow! What a revelation. Perhaps we should fit tyres to our vehicles that are rated for the intended mass of the vehi... ah wait a minute 😉
They just added weight, without adjusting the suspension or alignment, so yeah, more wear. Geniuses!
with the benefits of regen braking it's really a wash (a "zero sum game") in my expert opinion. those paying attention to the larger auto industry will recall the temporary STOP SALE that occurred Dec 2020 in both CA and WA of high end variants of Chevrolet Camaros (SS, ZL1, 1LE) because of the levels of copper contained in the performance brake pads. the environmental mandate enacted by both those states back in 2010 was a phase out/reduction of copper to less than 0.5 percent. another FUN FACT Class 8 Tractor Trailers (representing the backbone of the Global Economy) generally have a GCVW of 80,000 lbs running a total of 18 tires with 10 brake assemblies. struggling with Cognitive Dissonance, one can try and "rationalize" it however they like, but the simple fact is so long as greedy/rapey Human Beings exist on the Earth, our collective impact on the Environment will invariably be a NET NEGATIVE no matter what we do. REF: "We Have Met the ENEMY and He is US..." - Pogo/Walter Kelly, 1987
People are just looking for a confirmation bias to hate EV's and "The others." Aka the "I knew it" conspiracy... SMH...
Sure are a lot of FUDs out there. Can I suggest a video on noise pollution from tyres? Not Just Bikes did one and I think it is a topic worth discussing further.
Nice video, are your earings mini ZIP DISKS??
They're mini 3.5" floppy disks. They don't say HD, so presumably only 720k ;)
^Kate
That was the hottest video north of Havana. Thanks Kate.
Talking of particulates.... In Europe, emissions metrics are based on a per mile traveled but here, in USA, the metric is based on quantity of fuel consumed... So that begins to make even hybids a big question.
Returning to tyres (tires), the electric vehicle having lower rolling resistance and being harder presumably creates less waste. Coupled with superior traction control of electric vehicles, the tire waste should be less...
Sometimes it makes my head spin on its shoulders when my friends tell me that they are going to check with their Uncle Fred the car dealer because he'd only have their best interest in mind. Uncle Fred tells them electric cars won't be ready for another 25 years. This next one happened to me just last week. I'm showing a friend online used electric vehicles in her price range and one of my co-workers who is a former car mechanic says she should abandon searching because you can't find a decent electric car for under $75,000.
Surprised by this video. Shouldn't we be happy that people are finally becoming informed about another serious form of pollution even if the argument is less than genuine?
Just thinking, surely this means that SUV's are even more crap - cos, that is the problem of weight. As J.T. noted, a Tesla model 3 is only 1.8 Tonnes, which is not much different from other cars of similar size. Whereas, all SUV cars are much heavier than this.
So if rolling resistance is a problem, then the article should complain about heavy cars, not EV's. But that would not continue the narrative of the oil industry.
I always look forward to your contribution's Kate cos you sarcasm really matches the FUD.
The study didn't test trucks or SUVs which are the preferred vehicle in the US.
There is no reason that an EV should be any heavier than an ICE, apart from idiots buying excess range for that one trip a year, and the vehicle weight (not unsprung weight!) is the major factor on tire particulate emissions.
Unsprung weight is much worse than vehicle weight, because of shock loads on the tread on rough roads. Low unsprung weight keeps a more uniform load on the tires, reducing surface deformation. The most important things are maintaining proper wheel alignment, and inflation pressure.
Very interesting- thanks
Nice save icon earrings. That’s Floppy disks for those over 25.
I never read the article when it started making rounds. I knew it was manipulated FUD.
Your Copacabana was pretty good!
so... let me get this straight: Tire dust from EVs... BAD! Tire dust from ICE - GOOD!?
One of the reasons we switched from natural rubber tires to synthetic rubber was that spilled gas and oil will dissolve natural rubber. the other of course was WWII cut us off from the rubber producers.No ice cars means no spilled gas and oil.Maybe we could go back to natural rubber.
Spills in the oceans.
Great comments! If you assume differences you lose all credibility, just test it for a real outcome!
The average total wearable tread weight of an automotive passenger tire. Is about 20-25% of the tires total overall weight.
So you take that and divide it by the estimated miles you expect the tire to last. Doing that proves some of these crazy media fud figures means if the tire wore down that quickly? You'd be on the nylon belts in a matter of a few hundred miles. 😀
Scott Kilmer channel always talks about how terrible EV tires are lol..
My Model 3 performance got 50k out of the first set of tires, 10k longer than I was getting out of my Audi S4
Merci for this. But in the fight to have the world adopt EV, we lost.
I don't know if you've done a Fudbuster program on what I tweeted out to you about the Volvo study showing how many miles you have to drive in an EV before it's carbon footprint is better than an ICEV. I'm sure you seen this, I tweeted it to your channel. They have 3 categories for EV, a clean grid, a mixed one and a dirty coal driven electrical grid. But they only have one category for the petrol or diesel ICEV. I asked why they didn't have 3 different categories for the fracked oil and or bitumin from tar sands.
I sent that out to Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Swiss ETH Lausanne and Zürich, as well as Volvo. I also talked with ETHL and with someone from Swiss media.
The results? No response from the above akademic institutions. And the RTS did several reports about how we shouldn't move to EV specifically citing that they were worried about the electrical grid.
They not only keep lying, but like in the tire report, they double down on the lying.
Sigh.
Notre plaisir! We did cover the Volvo study a while back - here: th-cam.com/video/FoF4FPqChdk/w-d-xo.html
^Kate
The same logic leads to saying that planes have loads less particulates emissions as their Tues are less on the ground than a car... Focusing on one aspect usually means they want to obscure some dark fact.
For those who must drive a car, EVs are probably the best. But to make the massive reductions (i.e., not just halve, but make magnitudes less emissions) in emissions that are necessary, it's the inertia of car culture itself, that must be faced. If we can do that, we can also reclaim the space in our cities from things other than just storing cars and moving them with their (almost always) single occupant driver around.
I was shocked to see this headline in The Atlantic today. Don’t regular cars use the exact same tires?!? So misleading. Was this concept dragged in to the public discourse by oil lobbyists?
How bad are particulates from brake wear? Surely EVs score much better in that category.
So... Show me the brake dust... That should shut the FUDer up!!!
I want your next album! 😁🤟🏼
That intro was captivating.
Today's large SUVs/P/Us are just as heavy as a EVs. A chevy Bolt is about 3,600 lbs. A Silverado is 4,500 lbs. The Trax 3,200 lbs. It really doesn't seem any heavier then any other vehicle out there. It just all FUD.
👍🖒👍 @Kate (brilliant)
Fud busted! Well done 👏 ✔️ 👍 👌 😀
Tyres can go for 60,000 miles? nope. I have never seen tyres go that far. Drove a small car, large SUV, full size RWD, mid size FWD and AWD cars but never have I seen tyres go further than 25,000 miles. Some tyres even have 35,000 mile guarantees but still...
this is too unbelievably funny, so this study about EVs producing 1000s of times more tire particulates than fossil fuel burners was not even done with EVs but with emissions producing vehicles! wow!
They're all bad, if only there was a mode of transport that used steel wheels on an iron road, we could call it a "chemin de fer" in French. I'm sure Adam Something has something to say about this...
It's the fact most tyres get shipped to the 3rd world where they're burnt. It's not so much about the particulates
It's all fun and games until my government uses that as an excuse to tax EVs
Also, and I'm sorry if this is boring, how come heavier vans, trucks, lorries etc.with ICE engines do not have a "particulate tyre problem" ? ( Answer - they always have had, but no-one speaks about the deadly diseases caused by ICE vehicles - because - MONEY ")
Regenerative braking. No clutch (on the eastern side of the pond it still makes a difference).
What? You still use Firefox? Oh wait, so do I, I care about my privacy!
So we should just ban tyres from our roads. But wait our roads themselves are held together by the gunk at the bottom of the refinery's distillation column. This is the real issue, pretty well everything in our modern world is interconnected with everything else. Most plastics are made from crude oil so I doubt the oil companies are going to suffer too much if no one buys gasoline anymore.
If we want a cleaner greener form of human transport it's been around longer than the automobile; The Train. Steel wheels on steel tracks have lower friction, don't seem to produce any particulates and being steel are 100% recyclable. Less private and more public transport is the best answer.
Kate,
Probably all the burn-outs that EV drivers are doing. Oh ya, coal rollers do those too ……. I resolve to accelerate gently in the future.
I have trouble believing a Bolt wears it's tires faster than something like a Suburban.
I mean, if you're driving an electric Hummer, maybe but who does that?
And when they finally do test an EV sounds like people will need to double check the car is being driven in a realistic way rather than one step down from doing donuts and have the right tyres.
Hover cars have no tires. When will we get them?who knows
Without any evidence I am prepared to believe that the health impact of tyre particulates may equal that of fossil fuels for people living along major routes. More research should certainly be done on making “cleaner” tyres. However, the studies do not mention that the tar in “tar-sealed” roads may also be a significant source of particulate pollution. All of this makes great FUD doesn’t it? Let’s stop spinning our wheels make our tyres out of wood.
Don't give up your day job! Keep the singing for karaoke! I've seen a couple of tyre innovations to reduce tyres wearing over the years. One was to stop that large puff of rubber smoke when a large plane lands. Never taken up, yet it would have saved the airlines money and kept the tyres safer! Another was for retreading truck tyres, instead of stretching the need part 9ver the tyre it would compress it making it harder wearing and lasting longer costing less yet have never seen it taken up by the industry. Funny that.
I think Mentour Pilot did a video on why airplanes aren't equipped to spin up their wheels prior to landing, though I forget what his arguments were.
As for harder wearing tires, it's easy to make them, but they tend to have poor grip - hardness being a tradeoff between the two. To complicate it further, hardness is affected by temperature, which is one of the reasons running on winter tires in summer is generally a bad idea (I've experienced myself how "squidgy" winter tires become when temperatures are 30C above their intended usage conditions). Reconditioning/resurfacing tires is done, or has been done as far as I know, but I'm guessing the economics of it aren't great...
@@koma-k Thank you for your considered reply. Unlike most I get, which are not. Here in OZ we don't need to go from summer to winter tyres due to climate. The harder retreading I saw was decades ago and only for large trucks and mainly for the trailers. Thanks for the input. Cheers from OZ!!
It seems to be a similar and repeated electric vehicles are bad because their batteries…. But then the same person seems to enjoy their smartphone and laptop which runs off on the same batteries just smaller ones. So why not attack the special tires, which would help any vehicle not just EVs!
6:36 So after 127 million km my car will be weightless, nice
Hm... most EV weight 1tone more than my old diesel car that have dry mass at 1.2 tone. Not mention who will pay for increase road wears and tear.
"Oh my God" you started the piece. And who is that?
i don't care if B.E.V greener than I.C.E or not, i hate noise, and EV product almost no noise pollution when operate, is already a plus for me
Love the songs. Keep them from the 80s.
So much fuss over the one type of pollution that really doesn’t trigger my asthma - that would be the NOX group of gasses. Of course it’s FUD. Study on reducing particulate pollution is valuable in its own right but is sod all to do with the damage ICE vehicles do compared to EVs.
Most EV'S have incredible traction control systems that will not allow you to spin the wheels. ICE vehicles not so much .
"EVs produce tire particulates!!!" (Test made with ICE cars). I bet it was sponsored by BPEXXONSHELLMOBILTOTALREPSOLGALP... 😁