Horizontal Boring Mill: Leveling and Inspecting for Wear
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- Horizontal Boring Mill: Leveling and Inspecting for Wear
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Only being off by a few thou and at 104 years old, that's still impressive in my book....a real testament to how well these machines were made back in the days.
Keith, when you need that extra set of hands or eyes…. I made a holder for my iPhone that I could put on a heavy mag-base. I set it up to view what I need eyes on. Then FaceTime my iPad. Then you can take the iPad anywhere you need to go and keep your eyes on your remote level, water connection, volt meter, fish tape, whatever.
Well I have seen Kieth using all these machinists tools that are so cool but this time he just blew me away pulling out that T-Rex straight edge and stamping it on the machine. That’s it, he’s the King of the straight edges!
I ran a Lucas No. 31 for many years and many other manual machines for 30 years until I retired.
One other tip for leveling machines. Make the last adjustments by raising all fixators. This will remove any backlash in the threads and wedge angle.
Keith with the downward angle on the level cam you add electronics to your tripod to display the live view on your cell phone so you dont have to get up and down. Or display on a second stand monitor that you can watch easily again without getting up..
Keith, the bubble eye level is one of the coolest pieces of kit I have seen in years!
Lucas made machines to last !
I operated a Lucas boring mill at my place of employment that was built in 1941. It was a war time machine here in Canada and made a lot of parts for the military. I started working on it in 2015 and it was a little clapped out and the electrical side of things was getting beyond repair so it got replaced by a newer machine. It got bought by somebody who planned on totally restoring it. It was a tough old girl. Thats why it was bought up and rebuilt. They just dont make them like they used to. Good luck with your future plans Keith. Thats some good old solid American iron you have there !
We have acquired some inclinometers for lab use that are good to 50 micro-radians, which is I calculate 0.6 thousandths per foot. Downside is they’re only maybe 5 inches long. Clearly you can get better instruments; these are just to verify level. We actually have an inertial navigation system that can find down to about that accuracy but the sensors aren’t as it turns out accurately aligned to the case mounting features, so the inclinometers were a good and necessary measure.
First comment on your videos. I am not a machinist but I really enjoy seeing how things are done, your attention to detail and the care you put into not screwing a machined part up.
I enjoyed this, I did expect a slight twist in the bed since it's only a 3 point contact. There's no way to get the twist out, and the stresses in the metal will cause it to droop in the middle just from sitting. But I was pleasantly surprised by how little it was. You definitely got yourself a gem!
It’s going to be good to watch the old machine running
It's wonderful to have these machines as a slice of history, but it's tremendous to have someone like yourself with the skills, passion and persistence to bring it back to or perhaps even better than it's original specs. If you think back for a moment to consider the skills it took to engineer the pure mechanicals of the functions of the machine, then make the wooden mold plugs, then develop the techniques to make a sand cast for such huge castings, then to machine the rough castings a 100 years ago to the precision that we still strive for today, what a testament to the genius of those who made all of this industry possible!! Can't wait to see you do a total refurb on this big boy. I know it's a lot of work but if not now and not you, then by whom and when?
A testament to craftsmanship and good care. Not to mention the preservation of crucial skills like metrology. THANK YOU.
It amazes me that such an old machine is still in such good shape!
Nice to discover the many users of this fine machine treated it pretty well for over a century.
those levels are just so cool! they can show the concrete floor sagging as he walks by the level!!!
I've got a I beam riser on my Lucas because of that shaft. One of my mates core drilled a hole in his concrete like you were describing.
It actually raises it to a height you'd normally have a Hor bore at, so you aren't hunched over when you kick in the feeds.
so very much worth watching, thank you for sharing this with us.
Not only was this a well-made machine, you have to wonder about how many times someone(s) wiped it down, put fresh oil on the ways, cleaned off the chips, and maybe an occasional stoning or leveling adjustment to keep it in good shape. Manufacturing jobs fed a lot of families and gave a lot of pride to the machine operators.
Thank you Keith amazing machine
Great video Keith.......thanks for all the information!!!!!
Hi Keith, I absolutely love your channel, I look forward to every episode. I wondered if you thought about plugging a TV monitor into your main camera so you can see the bubble on the level without getting up and down so many times. You should be able to shoot the video and have a fairly big screen TV on a roll around shop stool so you could scoot from one point to another while you adjust the leveling pads. I use to build motion control movie camera rigs and thats one way I was able to level the tracks the rigs ran on. Just a thought, keep up the excellent work you've been doing.
Thank you Keith :) Grateful work of inspecting the Machine along with plenty of time to review and find some repairs of the Aged Machine. :)
Very cool! Thanks for letting us see the process.
Very informative! My only thought was (from listening to you) was if you thought the most wear was going to be right of the head, or left of the end, what is the possibility that you were totally correct and the far end, closest to the camera should have been level and the part where you started was worn? Total amateur speaking so not at all thinking you were wrong. Just what came into my head from your words. Thanks Keith always learn and I always thought of my self as a tool addict until I started watching you! Smiles!!!
If the initial project is the stoker engine, this should be way more accurate than required. Thank you for this demonstration it answers a lot of questions.
@@flat-earther Nope. This machine is what he has in mind for the repair. He has mentioned it more than a few times.
@@flat-earther He has said he plans to use both. The planer will be a good tool for the exterior machined surfaces that may need a clean up. This Lucas horizontal will be used to machine/repair the interior piston area that suffered the failed spray weld attempt. Let's just let him complete the tool/machine repairs and get to attempting the "stoker engine" rebuild. I believe it will make for good video.
Looks like you have to have a lot patience to really level a machine good job
would be nice to have the time.
@@frankmora8336 I have the time but not the health
@@danrabenhorst2549 Im lacking in both time and health.
Can't wait to see the rebuild
I think the stripes on the rails are not a failure nor a sign of bad quality. I think they are actually necessary for proper operation when oiled nicely. Then the sliding part holder will have low friction. If the surfaces would be honed smooth, the contacting surfaces would be sticking to eachother strongly.
if you were to put a support under the front corner and one under the back corner of the bed, you could most probably adjust some of the twist out of the bed.
Thanks for sharing 👍
My shaper has a drop shaft that went down 18 inches. below floor mount surface. . That has been removed, but lost power elevation. They used a crane to adjust it. I am going to make it hydraulic someday i suspect. On this machine i suspect the twist is from improper storage and will fix itself. Since the precision work is done from traversing the boring head, the bed wear means absolutely zero. Nice machine, Glad to see its alive.
In most shops a foundation is under the machine. Hold downs as well you then take the twist out of the ways. Obviously if its wear than either scraping or machining of the ways is necessary
.
No way.....Yes way. Keith triumphs again. Seriously, interesting video that shows how very large scale machines are brought to amazing tolerances.
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
That machine probably could tell you some amazing stories of stuff built over the years. Providing the machine was built on those three points. The twist may come out in time as the machine settles. It has been sitting for sometime now not leveled on the three points. Time will tell.
Thank you!
Might this project be in preparation for your stoker?
GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO, LET'S GO TO WORK...
That looks more like sag that wear by what you’ve explained maybe try adding some braces in the middle and going down a little bit on your jacks kinda like introducing twist on a lathe
When you were checking the relationship of the one way to the other with the King device, it doesn't tell you if there is a dip in the ways from left to right - only if one way is lower than the other in that position. If both ways dropped exactly one inch, the King device would still show zero. The straight edge obviously is a much better way to see if there is a dip.
So that circular level you are also trusting that your bed is flat in regards to the area that level occupies. So if it isnt would you use a trusted surface (like some ground stock) that can span the bed to "average" the beds flatness and place your level on that? Or you should first ensure the beds flat before leveling?
You should have someone in there at times with you Keith.. Just for worse case scenarios.. Be careful and Carry on!
He has cats and dogs! The most responsible beings on earth!
@@paulcopeland9035 Well.. you do bring out a valid point... ;-)
I wonder if you put extra support legs under the places where the most wear is, that maybe you don't have to scrape 5 thousand but 1 or 2 thousand?
for sure that this machine is salvable but, unless a complete remachining of all its sliding surfaces, the precision will stay in a very moderate range.
i don't believe that this machine will be suitable for high precision toleranced jobs but for general shop work, it will be perfectly usable.
very good video and nice recuperation.
He went over that. He's planning on possibly doing a rebuild. Grinding and scraping included. It's just barely in the realm of needing regrinding. It might even make sense to just scrape it to avoid time and cost of packing, shipping, grinding, repacking, and shipping it back to him. A few thou can be scraped out. It's already pretty high precision and accuracy as it is, for the machine type and time period. Those few thou of decision will translate to much less than that in actual operation.
An interesting test would be to put your toe Jack at the end of the bed on the near side and put a strain on the bed and see if your gauge registers a twist.
Hi Keith - Are you going to the summer bash??
I can't remember Keith, did you buy the Kingway tool from Richard as an original, or did you make it?
With so few support places under the machine wouldn’t you guess the bed would sag some? Particularly with a heavy table and workpieces added on? (This thing is a beast!)
my thoughts as well. I wonder if putting a jack under the center of that bed would eliminate some of that "sag"
@@truckguy6666 Bound too, I can easily bow my 47000lb G&l mill several thousandths with the jack screws. Huge difference between machines though as mine has 48 hold down bolts versus 3 on Keiths. Kind of crazy to me they used so few. My small Monarch lathe has a similar footprint to this Lucas and it has 12 base screws.
Turn the front leveling foot 90 degrees to the left... keeps you from bumping into it with your feet!
good video
I love this machine!
I think I see a Rockwell DP220 drill press in the background. If it is, how did you get the three lever feed? Mine has a two lever and wish I had a three.
Do. Learn. Share. Love it.
Logic would say the front way would have a bit more wear due to the direction of rotation of the boring cutter causing more pressure to be on it over a long time. Can't keep the ways perfectly clean and the little bits of grit cause wear. Hope this makes sense.
~0.003" to 0.004" over 8' might very well be approximately the manufacturer's tolerance on a machine built in 1918, especially with a 3-point base.
You kind of need to consider their trade-offs in terms of finishing time that could be spent on making the machine, and the quality of their measuring tools - probably at best a similar 0.0005" per foot level from Starrett or Brown & Sharpe.
In other words, you might be able to level the bed to a slightly better final state, but you may well be chasing your tail trying to significantly improve on what you've got.
They could measure a millionth of an inch back then. They had interferometry back them for measuring equipment. I’m sure this was much more accurate when it was built. The science for making flat surfaces was well established by the mid 1800’s.
@@melgross This is not a laboratory machine meant to be used in a temperature controlled environment. .005 deviation over eight feet is plenty good enough for the work it was designed to do.
@@ellieprice363 well, that partly true. Machines back them were more accurate than you’re giving them credit for.
@@melgross Oh I’m giving them plenty of credit. The machine is as accurate as it needs to be. The table ways are so long and flat the .005 “sway” will never be a factor.
Hi keith, great to see someone using a camleback straight edge.
I recently aquired a 72" Browne & Sharpe Mec. Co. , serial Nr. 242 12.
I've been looking for information a to its year of manufacturing, without much success. If you could point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it.
I've started cleaning it up, and hope to get it recalibrated.
Is'n it possible to connect your phone to your camera so you can see the bubble realtime?
Very nice. Did the steam stoker engine ever get finished? If not, could this machine handle that job?
You need to review some recent videos. That question had been discussed.
What I'd suggest is to not only add the square section above the levelling foot to raise it up but also to add a say foot square 1 inch steel plate under the levelling foot to spread out the load a little on the concrete.
That machine looks to have some weight to it.
EDIT: ok, memo to self, wait till the end of the video to comment. Keith is already well ahead of my suggestion 😄
Hiya Keith
I am wondering if a machinist jack under the base, at the lowest point, just well snug, would make it better or at least would keep it more konsistant.
Possibly there should be permanent legs in the middle to keep it straight. Like on Adam's lathe.
@@Drottninggatan2017 this machine likely should have wedges driven under to level and grouted to finish it. Checking the vertical ways would tell another story. If the bed is sagging the column would be leaning in as well I would think.
After precision leveling, how long will it hold? Do you need to check once a year? Also these machines were on wood block floors that isolated near by machine vibrations. Concrete floors would need isolation footings to stop vibrations from other floors. Interesting.
Very nice.. Could you have used your autocollimator?
One hundred plus years and max four thousands gap now that's what you call quality manufacturing , I'd be very happy with that Keith great machine. From down under.
"Three thousandths - not great, not terrible." 😁
It is a very old casting could any of that be taken out by leveling screws at the lowest point? not optimal but just wondering.
Where could I find machine feet that adjust like that?
Gotta say, I'd really suggest turning that front foot 90 degrees so there's no stick out that you can kick or bump by accident, especially after leveling it so carefully.
how do you think, such machine costs now?
did it risen in price due to global price rise a lot or rather not much?
what is such machine used for usually?
why such long bed?
Id be curious if you could take out the sag adding a pair of leveling feet in the middle. The bed may have sagged that far over time.
Hey Keith, did you see that Fireball tools has a K&T that needs a rebuild?
He has a K&T that he wants to sell. Rebuild is for the next guy.
Keith could you give us an update on the Stoker steam engine restoration?
Pretty sure that is the urgent project that requires the boring mill to be operational.
@@mabmachine Thanks man
@@flat-earther... I don't remember him saying that but OK, I can see him using the planer on the external machined surfaces. However, he has been clear lately that this machine is destined to fix the interior problem that has plagued the stoker.
Stupid question > why does a machine tool like this horizontal mill, or a lathe, need to be precisely level? If it is out of level what is the adverse effect? Gravity pulling the cutting tool in the wrong direction?
It doesn't need to be level. Leveling it ensure that the bed/ways aren't twisted, and it makes setups easier if you have a level datum.
I love your channel. I am curious as to how thick your concrete slab is? I assume it’s on a thick base and is reinforced.
That is definitely not bad for an old machine! I look forward to see it going. By the way, what is the status on the stoker engine? I saw in in the background of a shot one or two weeks ago, so it still is there, but it looked pretty well finished.....
" Es enorme ! "
Keith,
I'm surprised a machine that size has only three feet. I would have thought there would have been additional feet somewhere in the middle and another on the one end. Ialso would have expected that once leveled there would have been a way to lock the machine in place.
I understand the machine is massive but, in an industrial environment what happens if it is struck by a pallet jack or a gantry?
Bob
That 8’ camelback straight edge is something. Upwards of 200 pounds?
Great video can’t Waite to see her run and can you provide an update on the stroker engine it’s been a while
It is a "stoker" engine and the future of it has been discussed here recently.
Would be interesting to see the reading after rotating the straight edge 180 degrees.
If the straight edge was built correctly, it should not make any difference, but that thought popped into my head as well.
I've been watching "Steve Watkins at Work" who planes these straight edges after they are cast and it's a wonderful sight to see his machine(about the same age as this one) that does the planing of the rough casting.
@@Bobs-Wrigles5555 Agreed, the purpose is to determine if the tool is faulty.
Just like flipping a level.
Cheers
Can’t you adjust that twist out?
I would think that staticly precision leveling is great, but once the the machine is active and massive shaking and jarring it brings you back to the precision of a carpenter level, unless you precision level it before every use?
Regarding that twist, wouldn't it be better to have the machine sit on four feet then and use the two feet on the tail end to "bend" the twist out of it? And with two more feet in the middle you could maybe even compensate a little for the bow along the ways, getting it closer to flat than it is now.
Could you switch to a four point base? I thought it may help get the twist out. But, if it suits you, it's great! Greg
Are you addressing this comment to Keith or to the design engineers of a century ago?
@@paulcopeland9035 Well Paul Keith is pretty good at re-engineering stuff so I guess I was aiming in his direction. I know it's easier and usually stable to use three points to level anything but if it is so finicky on that machine I figured four points should be better. The century old engineers might be hard to find! (Ha ha), Greg
Job coming up the "Stoker Engine"? Secret stuff right now?
kind of makes sense why it wore more in one spot. at least to me it would be from the torque the boring exerts on the bed putting more force on one side than the other. or am i wrong?
I'm surprised you didn't use 6 leveling feet. take the twist out with the corners then the ones in the middle to remove sag.
Maybe you already told us but how far or deep can this machine bore? X axis I think.
How much flex would there be with a machine that size and feet being that far apart?
You need to get a ticket for the time machine and go back to 1918 when it was designed.
A little woried about vibration issues dueing operation with your support system cosing the ends of the tubes may help Know you doin’t want to drill a hole but in the end but filling a hole in a concrete flooris alot easier then fixing a broken machine.
How did you determine the wall thickness of the square tube?
I think it's irrelevant, as he said there is a thick-wall pipe inside it. That is what is carrying the weight. The square tube is just there to keep the pipe stub plumb.
Well, when you buy it the supplier will tell you or you can measure it. See, easy.
Keith, you've made an error gluing pieces of this video together - the part where you are explaining things about the straight edge is doubled from different episodes.
I'm struggling with how this machine stays stable with a heavy load given it only has 3 points? It feels like it will want to fall over if the part is heavy enough and loaded to one side.
Why, on God's green earth would a machinist load ANY machine so far out of balance that it would tip over??? It is like you are so obsessed with finding fault that you come up with some absurd invented story to support your mindless fears. Why don't you think these things through with an ounce of rationality BEFORE you put your fingers on the keyboard?
Every video Keith makes is 50% longer than it needs to be because he over explains and repeats everything and thoroughly justifies his every decision simply to quiet the voices of skeptics, second guessers and just plain dumbasses here in the comments section. You people are ruining these videos.
My best guess is that the mass and strength of the castings were carefully calculated at the factory to support any weight the machine was expected to support.
@@ellieprice363 And I would call that a well founded and reasonable assumption.
@@artszabo1015 Thanks. Those engineers that designed that machine knew what they were doing. Now it’s getting a new life thanks to Keith’s knowledgeable restoration.
Call me crazy but I don't think square tubing is your best bet for raising the machine. I think a few pieces of 4 - 5" thick stock will be a better, non-collapsible alternative...
I hate to say this....but swap your level end for end, or check the level after it rains, or after it doesn't, or it gets cold or hot. How do you level a machine on board a ship?
The spec is expected to change over time. As you point out, it's unavoidable. That's why these machines are leveled periodically.
We know they will move and the idea is to check it and correct it when necessary (if possible).
Machine tools don't have to be level. They need to have their ways in the same plane as machined and scraped (ie not twisted). Using a level is a very easy way to make that happen. AND it happens to be very convenient to do that since a level can then be used to setup odd work pieces in the machine. Pretty common for Navy Machinist Mates to do +/- .001 work shipboard while in port or in calm seas.
Hate to say what? Common knowledge that Keith already knows? He knows how to check a level for accuracy. He knows it changes due to environmental conditions. He knows the machine doesn't need to be level. As ^ he said, it doesn't NEED to be level, it just makes everything easier.
Next time, put a video monitor on the floor so you can see the level at the same time you are adjusting the machine.
Keith, I watch many of your videos. I have noticed I see you wear a Philmont belt. Are also an Eagle Scout? I made Eagle Scout back in 1971.
Your Videos are great and I enjoy them.
Respectfully Bill Rotundo
Interesting... :-)
just call a friend on the phone and let him watch the bubble. lol