I was sick while recording so the audio might've be a little wonky. Apologies. Big thanks to Jack for helping out with the edit on his first episode guide. Next up is Disharmony, the script for which is 70 percent done. Firefly hangout next weekend. If you enjoy the work and would like to toss a cheeseburger into my cage, you can do so over on Patreon: www.patreon.com/passionofthenerd or by using the 'Join' button on the TH-cam Page: th-cam.com/users/passionofthenerd We just added the movie commentaries as a bonus for TH-cam Membership. Jack is working on our 6th: IT Chapter 1, which we had a lot of fun with. Anyway that's it. More soon! -Ian
Hope you feel better soon, Ian. Your reviews & analyses are the reason YT was invented: precise, reflective, very thoughtful & _always_ giving me an idea -or many -I hadn’t previously thought of. Thank you, Ian.
Interesting, I always found Dawn’s perspective to be understandable, while also being clearly untrue. For me, the direction generally helps support that. Like, for a small example, we the audience see Buffy looking at Dawn in the funeral home, but Dawn literally can’t see it from the position she’s in. Similarly, we the audience have seen things like Buffy crying over dishes and confiding in Angel…but Dawn has not. We saw Buffy’s extremely emotional outburst on finding Joyce in “The Body”, but Dawn only saw Buffy being shut down. Again, we the audience know exactly why Buffy is reacting that way - she is overwhelmed by shock and grief. We know that, but Dawn perceives it as emotionlessness. And on some level she knows it’s because Buffy is upset, but she doesn’t truly understand it. ‘Why isn’t Buffy upset like I’m upset? How can she not be collapsing to the floor in her grief?’ Which she did, of course, but Dawn did not see that. I know in my own life there have been a lot of times where I perceived someone’s emotions or actions to mean one thing, when in reality they meant something else entirely. Dawn can sense on some level that Buffy is holding herself back from expressing her true emotions. For Buffy, she feels like it’s what she has to do to keep going. For Dawn, who doesn’t understand why but can still tell it’s happening, her mind jumps to the worst scenario. “Buffy doesn’t want to show emotion around me. Why can’t she share this grief with me? Why does she feel so distant? She must not want to be around me. After all, I’m not even really her sister. She just feels obligated, like she’s obligated to do everything else.” It’s a wrongheaded train of thought, but one that I think makes sense based in what Dawn’s perspective has been, and her own anxieties about her existence. Which, despite the reassurances that Buffy gave before, wouldn’t be something she’d just get over. That fear would still be lurking in her mind. Which isn’t to say all of that is portrayed perfectly here, but honestly it really works for me and this is one of my favorite follow-up episodes.
Yes, as annoying as Dawn is her perspective made sense to me in this episode, and you articulated why. We know Buffy is keeping it together because she has to, but what Dawn sees is her sister being distant and professional, rather than warm and vulnerable. I think that says a lot of about conflicting expectations placed on Buffy and women in positions of responsibility, but it's also an understandable need on Dawn's part, to see the side of Buffy she's withholding from the world.
I agree with you on a lot of what you’ve said. But I do also think that the structure of the episode supports how Dawn feels. As an audience we get to see each of the character deal, each having their own person (except Giles) to turn to for that comfort. Dawn doesn’t get one of those scenes because she doesn’t have anyone - the closest she comes to is Spike, who through not having a soul can’t comfort Dawn in the way she needs, so takes at face value what she tells him she wants. As an audience we see Dawn how the other characters do - perhaps a bit irritating and selfish - but none of them try to connect to her on a level to understand her behaviour/reactions. For example, that end speech ‘you won’t even look at me’ we see buffy looking at Dawn directly in nearly every seen, but Dawn doesn’t see that. When someone feels isolated they will often act in a way to cause more isolation, and I think that’s what Dawn is doing, to the other character and the audience. I think this is huge foreshadowing for Dawns arc in 6, leading to pretty much the same speech at the end of Grave.
I like your analysis but IF those feelings of Dawn’s are to be believed & IF we justify Dawn’s actions or responses we _must_ see this on film: or it’s irrelevant. IF Dawn simply doesn’t see Buffy’s reactions or Buffy’s own quiet, private misery, then the episode needs to explain it without our separate or discrete involvement. Our interpretation cannot suffice for something that is lacking ….
We also need to remember she’s processing this through the lens of still doubting her own personhood and belonging as a Summer. Yes, the matter was put to rest in Joyce’s and Buffy’s minds, but was it truly in Dawn’s? Joyce was “normal”-her choosing to love Dawn could be seen as without obligation. But Buffy is the Chosen One-she *has* to protect the key as a product of her calling and very existence. (Again, a skewed perspective but up there with the teen who believes their parent loves them out of obligation, not choice.)
I don't agree that Dawn's perspective is "clearly wrong". From her perspective, it feels true to her. My mother died when I was 18 and my sister 16. I reacted like Buffy and my sister like Dawn tbh. "You won't even look at me. It's so obvious that you don't want me around" - Buffy has been doing all the things that need to be done when someone dies. She is in shock and not emotionally present. Dawn perceives that as Buffy being cold to her and not wanting to spend the time to connect with her. Let's not forget that throughout most of season 5 Buffy already acted like Dawn was a hindrance. She no longer has her mom and now only has her distant big sister. Her mom was always much warmer to her than Buffy "Mom died and it's like you don't even care" Buffy hasn't shown her grief to Dawn leading Dawn to feel isolated in her grief. We know that as the slayer Buffy cuts herself off, but Dawn doesn't know how to do that. She perceives it as indifference. "I don't have anybody" - I think here she means "of my own". Buffy has all her support system. None of Dawn's friends showed up at the funeral or are shown to have been there for her. There's a difference between shallow friendships in school and people who will show up when things are hard. Dawn only has Buffy's friends which feels isolating.
Yep, Buffy is the only true connection for Dawn now. Spike is her friend (and she knows she can't fully trust him), but everyone else in the group is just her babysitter. And it's not just thinking her only loved one is rejecting her, Dawn has to, for survival, know if Buffy will step into the role of mother for her. She's extra susceptible to feeling like a burden (because she is one) and is wanting reassurance that she's going to be taken care of. That's why Buffy's "who's going to take care of us?" is so devastating, because you can see Dawn realize for the first time that Buffy is a kid too. They need to take care of each other (even though their relationship isn't going to be balanced like that moving forward). Her ripping up the picture is an act of maturity, of protecting Buffy from further pain.
Yes, and while people who didn't lose parents at a young age can understandable miss some of those nuances, those of us who have can see that this episode hit so deep into what really happens that it's almost like reliving it. I was in a state of shock watching this episode - It was incredible, and gave voice to everything I went through in a way I never expected. One more point - while we on the outside can see Buffy caring and looking at Dawn, re-watch - Dawn never sees it. She is looking down, in the other direction, or inwardly. She has no solid or grounding force but Buffy, and Buffy is being strong - which looks like emotionless rejection to a child with no experience - even a teenager who thinks she sees everything (like all of us at that age). Dawn's preemptive rejections are defenses. She is so lost inside her grief that she can't see anyone else's.
I think the disconnect may also be intentional. Dawn in her grief resorts to something wrong for wrong reasons. It cuts Buffy and Dawn off from each other's experiences, because she's not real and she's a teenager. Of course, a better episode might've done more with that concept or made it work better....
@@michaeldeboer yep, this is how I perceive it, too (both your perspective and FallenPrincess’s). I this case I believe the intent was to differentiate reality from Dawn’s perception. Not to say Dawn’s perception was invalid-it’s genuinely how she felt. And it makes sense-all Buffy’s friends were present, but Dawn’s weren’t. Buffy was trying to protect Dawn from an emotional breakdown, so Dawn interprets that as “not caring”. And Dawn is internalizing the death through the lens of not being secure that she’s really a person. (I think this is the critical part.). Dawn is suffering compound trauma … and as a child.
> Interesting, I always found Dawn’s perspective to be understandable, while also being clearly untrue. I think a common experience in (romantic) relationships is fights in which one person makes an exaggerated untrue statement, such as "you always [...]" or "you never [...]". I think Dawn is doing something similar here: driven by an unbearably uncomfortable emotion, she expresses her authentic perspective with exaggerated factual claims. It's annoying to deal with, but none of us get to choose how others express themselves. I think one reasonable approach is to guess what their perspective is, then "what I'm hearing you say is [guess]; did I understand you correctly?", then respond only once they say yes.
I disagree with your analysis of the ending. I think they specifically showed us Joyce's feet and silhouette to make it clear that whatever was out there was not Joyce. There was something distinctly unnatural about how steady and even her walking was. Like she was a robot or a puppet. Also, she wouldn't have just knocked, she would have been calling out to her girls. But at that moment, Buffy was so desperate for her mom back that she was willing to accept any part of what might've been her mother. So Dawn took the burden of the adult decision from Buffy's shoulders and made the adult decision to stop the spell before they had the memory of their mother tainted forever. I definitely agree with a lot of your assessments of the episode, but I think it's an interesting subversion of Stephen King's Pet Semetary and (unwittingly) is one of the most important episodes leading into Season 6.
@@speabody Buffy was mute because she was severely traumatized. She woke up in her own coffin, breathing nothing but stale air, no light (remember, we can see Sarah because of the lighting, so we can watch the character panic, but in universe it would be pitch black), and has to break the coffin lid, dig her way up six feet of dirt, while breathing that stale and diminishing air to reach... nothing. A quiet graveyard with a headstone bearing her name, birth and death years and an epitaph. She starts wandering towards Sunnydale, the place that was home, a place that she knows to find it a fiery hellscape, occupied by demons that are openly rioting in the streets, terrorizing what she gave her life to protect. She's subjected to painful imagery and sounds on senses that are both dulled and sharpened at the same time (loud, intense noises like the car alarm and gunshot, she can hear painfully well, but lower registry not so great and her eyes aren't working well at this point) and that segment ends with her watching a pack of demons rip her (the buffybot) into pieces. And all Buffy can do is scream "No!" In a futile effort to get them to stop. She runs, chased by the demons, into... her friends. Who mock her and try to get her to leave them alone (thinking she is the Buffybot) and she's finished. She huddles up in the alley, completely broken as they piece together what happened and drop the bombshell that barely penetrates Buffy's mind. They are responsible for this. She was at peace, at rest, and now she's been ripped out of her good afterlife and back into the harsh light of the world... by the people that she trusted and depended on. Is it any wonder that it took most of the episode before she could even speak a full sentence? Joyce on the other hand, was likely mute because what was outside wasn't her. Or at least not fully. We see around three resurrection rituals in the entirety of Buffy. We see Jack O'Toole in 'The Zeppo' who is basically raising zombies that have their personalities intact. Crude and blunt, just like the caster. We see Dawn's spell that requires a chant, a demon egg, candles and a focus. But there isn't a cost to the caster. Jack needed to cut his palm and give blood, we see the trials that Willow endures during her ritual, but the spell Dawn uses for Joyce doesn't have a cost or exchange. And then we have Willow's spell was considered by some degree allowed, because Buffy died under supernatural means and that required blood, candles, chants, a focus, forced Willow through multiple horrific and painful trials and had the rest of the scoobies there to hold the circle for the ritual. And Buffy still didn't come back 100% as she was before dying. She came back about 99% of exactly who and what she was (hence Spike's chip not activating when he would hit her).
You're wasting your breath...he just doesn't get it and is constantly reaching for things to critique because this show is unassailable to anyone who understands alchemical literature...which is pretty much nobody...especially those doing TH-cam critiques of the greatest televion show of all time...your comment is EXACTLY right and yup, EVERYONE of Buffy's generation will be thinking Pet Semetary with those creepy shoes and silhouette and so, there was NO question whether or not she would come back changed...also, he forgets that in syndication Dawn was hated...she was an outsider that robbed the viewers of the history of the beloved first 4 seasons...making her annoying was a nod to the audience and we all appreciated it at the time...he is wrong when he says it's a Dawn episode...it is not....every episode is a BUFFY episode....Xander, Willow, Giles, Spike and Dawn are always telling the BUFFY story...we don't care how she feels because we have no history with her and Joyce's death IS sacred...Nerd contradicts himself constantly because rather than doing vids about the genius and alchemy, he thinks he is qualified to CRITIQUE IT....a common casualty of a university education rampant in these vids on TH-cam... a "Dawn episode" immediately following "The Body" would've NOT been well received...for VERY GOOD reason.....and the writers knew that and that is why she is so isolated and doesn't have a lover to share her grief with...she's the outsider and keeping her as such while we all grieved a history with Joyce that for us, the audience, Dawn had NOTHING to do with was recompense to the audience imo and it also fits in with what Dawn represents in the bigger picture....Nerd is clueless but yet, I still watch...because I LOVE his sense of humor....and he does catch stuff I miss...but his primary mistake is making critiques rather than just straight up analyses....we live in an era where people think their opinions, whether educated or not, need to be voiced...they don't....;)
Dawn tearing up Joyce's photograph was a pivotal moment for her character, as it showed Dawn being the one to protect Buffy for once. When it all came down to it, she couldn't let Buffy carry that on her shoulders along with everything else.
That shot where day turns to night around Buffy and then a hand is around hers is one of my favourites from the series. "I'm sorry I couldn't come sooner." I just love that. As you say, Ian, even with everything that has happened between them and to them, it wasn't even a question in Angel's mind of whether he would come, but when. And the same for her. She shows zero surprise at his appearance. She's waiting at the graveside. Waiting for the night. Waiting for him. Knowing he would come. Beautifully shot. Beautiful moment 💗
I think one of the things I love about the confrontation between Dawn and Buffy is the moment when Buffy gives in. Dawn's way of coping throughout the entire episode has been combative. She's defining herself by the state of opposition she has to Buffy. That feeling of conflict makes her feel strong. Her mother is gone, there is nothing to fight, nothing to do except grieve. And she can't. So instead she takes those instincts to fight for her mother and turns them into a fight with her sister. But that moment in the confrontation with Buffy when Buffy hears the knock at the door all of that goes away. For everything Buffy has said about how Dawn can't do this, she wants it to be true. She wants Joyce the be on the other side of that door. The moment Dawn sees that, she's in freefall. She's been supporting herself through this fight with Buffy. She's been pushing on Buffy to keep herself standing. In that moment, Buffy gives, and Dawn has nothing bracing her anymore. With that fall, comes a horrifying moment of clarity that she can't do this. She always knew she couldn't do this but losing the one person in her life would inforce it. Losing Buffy being there to say "No" and she's suddenly in the terrifying position of having the make the decision entirely alone. You make a good point about everything she says in the argument being bullshit. And it is. It's an excuse for a fight that she needs or she'll break down. When Buffy turns to the door, suddenly everything she'd been saying becomes true. She is alone, Buffy won't look at her, and in that moment she has to make an adult decision all by herself. I think it's one of the first points at which Dawn starts to become a character that's more than just Buffy's bratty sister.
"defining herself by the state of opposition" is the perfect way to define Dawn in this episode. She can't allow herself to be vulnerable because the second she does then it all becomes real, if she feels the pain then the loss exists and she can't let the loss exist yet. So she fights, she fights everyone and everything because as long as she's fighting there is still hope. And like you said the second there is nothing to fight against she falls, not only does she fall she sees Buffy fall. Buffy falls violently, explicitly in a way that can't be hidden or obscured and in that moment *Dawn* has to make the mature choice and be someone her sister can brace herself against. Ending the episode with them leaning on each other, helping each other with their grief and pain was perfect imo.
i agree with absolutely all of this, and i think it's why none of dawn's behaviour really bothered me. her combative and rude behaviour is all a defense mechanism, and when buffy's vulnerability comes front and center in a way she can't simply wave away with more "it's like you don't even care" nonsense, she comes back to earth and realizes she can't do this to Joyce, no matter how much she wants her back. it's an incredibly mature move for a character far too young to have to make such a decision and it gave me a lot of respect for her, as well as lots of hindsight empathy for her actions throughout the episode
All of the comments in this thread are accurate, but I'd like to add this - the things that Dawn chooses to target aren't fully unjustified. Throughout the sequence at the funeral parlor, Buffy seemingly dismisses Dawn after she tries to connect with her sister, saying it was probably a bad idea for her to come and not including her in the decision. At the house planning the service, Dawn's back is already up from the previous scene, and now she once again feels she's being ignored as every time she tries to ask a question and get involved in the process, Buffy comes to a decision without bothering to ask Dawn her opinion. Then the funeral happens, and while Dawn breaks down in tears, Buffy stands stoic. When Willow and Tara escort her away and she learns Buffy intends to stay longer, Dawn looks back at her sister with a longing look (as though Dawn WANTS Buffy to stop her). So, honestly, her response and what she chooses to be combatant about isn't just bull. I mean, yeah, it is, but we, the audience, are the only ones who know that. To Dawn, it makes sense to fight her sister on these things because this is what she's observed. To gloss over this is doing a real disservice to how the episode is structured and written, as it does add to Dawn's motivation here.
Buffy and Dawn's breakdown at the end of this episode is one of the best acted scenes in television history. Both actresses gave it everything and Sarah Michelle Gellar breaks my fucking heart. "Cause when I stop...then she's really gone". CHILLS. 👏
My biggest issue with this episode is Cordelia's absence. Cordelia would have shown up for Joyce's funeral. Her whole thing is that she acts like she doesn't care but she does care when it matters. Remember how gentle she was in season 2 when Jenny was killed and Willow was in the hospital? Or the time Buffy asked her to drive her home when she was hurt by Giles? She would have been there for Buffy when her mother died.
Ehhh I doubt it. I’ve known people who died that I knew OF much like Cordelia did with Joyce and I didn’t go to their funerals… especially when I lived a distance the way Cordelia does to Buffy. I mean, not once did she go back to Sunnydale in the series.
I think the fact that ANGEL does go is the biggest thing that doesn't explain why Cordelia didn't. She most certainly would have had the opportunity but it would have made Angel's reveal less of a surprise. Though it was given away in the on air promo for the episode it was shot to be a surprise.
I understand your perspective around Dawn and the execution of her arc. In my reading, I never assumed Dawn’s perspective was meant to be conveyed to the audience as rationale - in her grief as a teenager, she was displaying misdirected aggression and blaming Buffy for not being supportive enough for her, which is consistent with Dawn’s behaviour and her being a young teen and the youngest child. Dawn is relying on Buffy now to be her protective adult figure now that their mum is dead, but Buffy herself is barely coping. But it’s understandably easier for Dawn to internalise to herself that Buffy doesn’t care because the alternative is Dawn accepting her only remaining blood family isn’t able to give her that complete security she needs right now, and that’s scary. The climax of the episode was Buffy opening up and admitting she’s struggling to look after Dawn, and that’s when Dawn accepts that and they reconcile. Also, not to disagree with you a second time in an episode, but that shot where Joyce’s silhouette walks past the window terrifies me - I reacted to it like a jump scare without it being a jump scare. I think it’s one of the scariest shots in the show for me!
I can't really agree with the notion that the bit where we see Joyce is tasteless. We're SUPPOSED to feel like it's a perversion of The Body, and not seeing her directly is far more unsettling. We'll never know what was waiting outside.
@@PassionoftheNerd - so was the magic spell that Dawn tried to cast. That's sort of the point. It's defiling something that should've just been left alone - like maybe I dunno, a legacy, or something? Bringing your dead relative or friend or a celebrity back to life where they come out Wrong is far worse than just letting them R.I.P. Wish I could explain it better, but I think I get what the episode was going for well enough..? That scene unnerves me too, but I think it was supposed to. It's a genre-crossing show and horror is a huge part of it.
@@PassionoftheNerd Respect for your bias. Disagree with your semantic argument, as perversion refers to altering/corrupting something against its original intent. If all things so altered were tasteless and therefore should be omitted from the show, then we wouldn't have any vampires or penis monsters (gasp!). LOL You get my point. ...not that one.
All we know for sure about the Joyce that was brought back, is that it is not a Zombie. Spike stated that a spell requiring more than grave dirt is "Zombie territory". There was no body to have to return to the grave, the grave itself was not disturbed (I assume, because joyce completely disappeared when the photo was destroyed) So this joyce is a shadow of what she used to be. Like the photo itself.
This episode is based on "The Monkey's Paw", a horror short story by English author W. W. Jacobs. It first appeared in Harper's Monthly in 1902. In the story, three wishes are granted to the owner of The Monkey's Paw, but the wishes come with an enormous price for interfering with fate. It ends also with someone opening their house door hoping to see a resurrected person, while someone else destroys the paw, so nobody's at the door.
i don't think the original ends with the paw being destroyed, i think it ends with the final wish being to stop the resurrection out of fear. i also find it annoying that, in the Monkey's Paw, their son dies in a factory accident, with the body mutilated, and part of the reasoning behind canceling the resurrection was the fear that the zombie would still be mutilated from the factory accident. Joyce's body was mostly still intact, so, there's much less reason to fear she might be being put through unnecessary pain.
I remember when I watched The Body for the first time, I was just kinda in shock. No tears, no breakdowns. And yet, when watching Forever, watching the two sisters crying at end somehow just broke me. Ugly, ugly tears
To me the ickiness and sacrilege were a big part of what made the episode terrifying. The idea of seeing their Mom, their comforter and such a warm character being turned into something dark and rotting made the shadow on the window absolutely petrifying to me, it was definitely an "Oh dear god, no!" moment when I first watched it. Buffy giving in and regressing to the state of a child instead of fighting this gross infraction was the absolute perfect harrowing addition for me, with SMG's fantastic delivery. I find Dawn being a stupid teenager understanding, as I was a teenager when I first watched it and could understand her pain. Though I do feel like the writing suffers from not knowing how much of a real person they wanted to make her character, she rarely feels like a completed well rounded character.
I never realised this till you said it, Ian, but yes, Angel is his most human around Buffy. She's his tether to humanity. Always has been. And I think this episode proves, even if they're not romantically together, she always will be. And we know this, too, because of just how much Angelus wants to destroy Buffy. He says it himself in S2: she made me feel human. That's not something I can just forgive.
To throw out one idea - I read something once that said, "Teenagers argue with themselves/process by looking like they're arguing with you." Dawn's contradictions might work on a teenager level. As a frame where contradictions are intentional and have Dawn turning inner struggles into condemnations - meanness as her being mean to herself, Buffy's reaction becomes catharsis for herself- or she realizes what she's doing and cuts things off there.
Wildbow not just teenagers. people do this constantly. parents yell at kids stuff they are actually only blaming themselves for, they yell at kids how dum the kid is, but what they mean is they themselves are dum....
The clear Pet Sematary homage in the footsteps, silhouette and door knocking sequence (not to mention the music) made it clear, for me, that Joyce had "come back wrong".
One of the reasons I love Angel and Buffy's relationship (in the wider sense) so much is that she always feels she can be real with him. As the series progresses, more and more responsibility and burdens are placed on her shoulders and, in my opinion, her friends allow her to isolate herself. Perhaps subconsciously they see it as her job, the price she has to pay as the Slayer. Rather than just inviting/allowing her to be vulnerable. Later in this season, when Buffy (spoilers) goes into a fugue, we have Willow telling her to snap out of it. Acknowledging she has the weight of the world on her shoulders but that she's borne it since she was 16. As if, therefore, she can not only pick it up again, but almost taking it for granted she must and will. No acknowledgement of what it costs her. And then judgment when it causes her to harden (see season 7). But just as Angel is his most human around Buffy, so too, perhaps, is Buffy her most human around him. In the sense she feels permission to be vulnerable. To just be a person first, rather than the Slayer. Or an older sister. You always make me think so much, Ian!
I love this and we see all the way up until season 7 *spoilers* Buffy is still at her most vulnerable with Angel and that their relationship wasn't just a teenage puppy love and that she still wants a future with him and vice versa
@@jpreaux2268*spoilers for s7* I know that some watchers, especially but not only Spuffy fans, get really annoyed by the Buffy/Angel kiss in s7 and feel it "came out of nowhere", but that pattern has been there through all of their interactions. Buffy's true feelings good and bad come out when she's with Angel. She's turned harder in s7 because of everything she's been through and because of having to look after all of the potentials, and imo because her friends don't encourage or even allow her to be vulnerable. And, of course, it's further exacerbated by them kicking her out of her house. But when she sees Angel, she sees someone who has always let her be her and someone she has always been able to be vulnerable with, and she just beams her relief and happiness. The other consistent narrative thread is Buffy and Angel's inability to be around each other without passion coming out, whether they want it to or not. Whether it's a good thing or not. We saw that in S2, S3 and S4 (via the crossover on Angel) and we see it again in this episode in S5, so it is totally consistent for it to happen again in s7.
@@jaycievictory8461 very well said and DB has said (I'm paraphrasing) that in a battle or argument they're always connected. IMO it shows they are still drawn to each other because they're not together for external reasons not because they don't work well together and are not in love etc
In defense of the resurrected Joyce cutaways: It made me extraordinarily uncomfortable, seeing Joyce coming back "wrong". And I think that having that tangible presence in the scene made the tension of Dawn ending the spell in time work a lot better. I was rooting for her to tear the picture just so Buffy didn't have to see the... undignified... return of her recently deceased mother. Also, it added to the mystery if, in season 6, another character had come back "wrong".
I always liked Buffy breaking down and showing vulnerability to Dawn, something she rarely if ever did, at the end. The line “who’s going to take care of us?” especially tugs at the heart strings for me. You saw Buffy be vulnerable with Angel earlier in the episode (great scene) but she was still keeping it together. She needed to breakdown there, with Dawn. I agree that they missed an opportunity for Dawn to show the same level of heartbreak
I kinda like that Dawn didn't breakdown? It gave her a moment to be the strong one between her and Buffy, and allow Buffy to shed her slayer skin and just be a human girl who's lost her mom. Dawn is the one holding Buffy, telling her it's okay. I DO agree with the video in that it felt like a Buffy moment in a Dawn centric episode, since it was Buffy who had that turning point where she gave in to her grief, but I still like it all the same. Dawn wasn't just the baby sister who needed to be coddled. She was just a sister who was there to comfort her sibling when she needed her.
@@BrightNeonBrilliancy All of this. Plus, Dawn has been breaking down and crying since she learned that Joyce died. So she’s, in a sense, in a better position than Buffy here. Dawn has been expressing her emotions and letting herself feel the pain of her loss. By comparison, Buffy has been bottling up her emotions, and that is never wise or healthy.
Honestly, I really like the ending scene. I mean, giving us Dawn as someone willing to do the wrong thing for the right reason-- Buffy wouldn't do that, but she would want that, and having someone else already do it, it allows her to stop being responsible for the consequences and just have her mom back. It's basically showing the two sides of Buffy-- the part that's moving forward and the part that is holding on. I am not a big fan of the Joyce visuals, but I do feel like they need to be there. We needed to know that Joyce's physical form was back, without knowing what was there. Otherwise we don't know which part comes back as "off". And just having a knock-- I feel like that's not enough, especially in this show.
Thank you Ian. I know you put a tremendous amount of work into these episodes and it's very much appreciated. I don't always agree with you 100% but I have a lot of respect for your opinions and always learn something new from your analysis. It's a real treat when a TPN Buffy Guide drops. 🙂
I got a theory... The last shot here with the door ajar on buffy and Dawn i think gets concluded with s06ep14's last shot of Buffy shutting the door with Dawns growing smile.
Dawn reminds me of what willow said to Oz in season 3 finale 2 parter. About panic being something people can share in time of crisis. Everyone was trying to be strong for dawn but she needed someone to panic with. I get it ❤
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about Dawn in this one because I always feel guilty that she gets in my nerves after what they've been through. Also, this is my favorite Bangel moment ever! It's so beautiful! I love them as mature friends who still love each other. It tells you how good it is that even though it's beautiful, you still feel like it's just long enough.
Really surprised you did not mention that Angel showing up for Buffy in this ep is the final punctuation mark to his journey of relearning what matters on his own show. Still enjoyed the video, as always.
In Out of my Mind Harmony tells the doctor about how Spike's chip prevents him from picking a flower. Spike is so quick to refute this claim and say that he can indeed pick flowers; that it's obvious he's covering up a lie. The bouquet of flowers he brings for Joyce are hand picked wild flowers. He set off his chip over and over to honor her memory. It's one of my favorite subtle moments in the series, and he didn't leave a card. I love the relationship Spike has with Joyce.
I think this is one of the first of these I've TOTALLY disagreed with sorry. I love everything about this episode. Its dark murky tone. The shadow of Joyce. One of my absolute favs.
I don't know how you always manage to put into words the things I've felt for over two decades but never managed to express, but I thank you for it. This series never disappoints. 💙
There's something about the Buffy/Angel moment that feels so much more adult. It's lovely, and it's like their relationship will always retain it's purity and beauty, whilst still adapting and changing as they change and adapt. I think this tiny scene can be a huge argument for the overall debate in are you team Angel or team errr... Billy? Mr Idol? Is this a spoiler?
Did Ian make a new rule about spoilers? (I haven’t watched the livestreams because I don’t like Firefly.) Usually, on these episode breakdowns, it’s assumed that we’ve all watched the series. Yours is the second comment that makes me wonder if we have to be careful about spoilers.
@@SuziQ. welllll.... he does make sure that each guide is spoiler free, so I like to respect that. Who knows, there could be people watching these alongside their first viewing of Buffy, especially in the future. But I reckon for the most part we're all here as long time fans
@@whedonobsessed , I’ve missed the last few months of livestreams, because Firefly doesn’t interest me, but in the past, it was assumed that we had already watched the series, at least once (often dozens of times), so though the guides are spoiler free, comments didn’t have to be. Ian’s comment about singing “those 3 words” was my first hint that we might be going spoiler free, which is sad, because this is my only safe place to discuss the series.
"The way the episode is written does her no favours". I'm afraid I feel that way about a lot (but not all) Dawn scenes. I agree, too, that a moment of her alone breaking down, perhaps cuddling an item of her mum's clothes, or something, would have gone a long way to offset how she behaves in this episode
It has been ages since Ian did a Buffy episode. They used to be monthly, with Angel in the middle. I can’t wait until he’s done with Firefly. For such a short series (FF), it feels like years since the last Buffy livestream. 😢
You COULD argue that this episode reflects how life works. We don’t always see other’s perspectives. What makes death/loss extra difficult for those still around is the fact that relationships are strained by NOT understanding the point of view or grieving process of our family and friends. I think Dawn’s perspective was intentionally absent to evoke that real life frustration and force the viewer to fill in the blanks as to how she might see things. This simulates how real life works: empathy or defensiveness in crisis
That Moment at 3:13 Is so important! It really shows how Willow believed that magic could solve anything and it' s another clue for her story in season six. Great detail from the writers, i think
I know there's a lot of wise guys on the internet who love to correct me, but I've always considered this episode to be a true direct sequel to "The Body". I mean like, if The Body was in fact a 10/10 movie and there was strong public demand for a sequel, how would such a movie be made? I think Forever would be the closest to it, with the little girl from the first movie bringing her dead mother back from the dead, only to learn her lesson right at the very end. Yeah remove the scenes that make it part of a TV season, flesh them both out a little more where they need it, and Forever would be an acceptable sequel to The Body... like 8/10... especially where the older sister starts breaking down at the end (LEGENDARY).
Geez. With a certain thing that happened later in S6, can you imagine Giles’ speech to Dawn had the spell been allowed to work and Joyce really did come back??
Or his speech to Willow. She basically gave Dawn the books. Willow really was a rank amateur with “little man syndrome”. (Can you tell that I’ve grown to dislike her?)
I wish this episode could have touched on a fear for Dawn- that Buffy might no longer feel connected to her. With Joyce around, they were a family. But now, it's just the slayer and the thing she needs to protect. I can only imagine that Dawn must have worried that Buffy might no longer want her as a sister, or a family, and may only see her as the key. Perhaps this is why she seemed relieved when Buffy broke down and let Dawn comfort her. It shows they're still sisters, even with the mother gone.
Buffy: Dawn. What have you done? Dawn: She's coming. She's coming home. Buffy: Dawn. You have no idea what you're messing with! Who knows what you actually raised or what's gonna come through that door. Dawn: No, I know. It'll be her. Buffy: No. Tara told me that these spells go bad all the time. People come back wrong. Dawn: She won't. He told me her DNA... Buffy: Who told you? Who helped you? Dawn: Nobody! Let me go! Buffy: You have to stop it. Reverse it. Dawn: No! Buffy: Dawn, you know this is wrong. You know you can't let this happen. Not to Mom. Dawn: But I need her. I don't care if she...I'm not like you, Buffy. I don't have anybody. Buffy: What? Of course you do. You have me. Dawn: No, I don't. You won't even look at me. It's so obvious you don't want me around. Buffy: That's not true. Dawn: Yes it is. Mom died and it's like you don't even care. Buffy: Of course I care. How can you even think that? Dawn: How can I not? You haven't even cried. You've just been running around like it's been some big chore or something. Cleaning up after Mom's mess. *Buffy slaps Dawn* Buffy: *Starting to cry* Oh, my God. Dawn...I've been working. I've been busy because I have to... Dawn: No! You've been avoiding me. Buffy: I'm not! I have to do these things cause...Cause when I stop then she's really gone. And I'm trying...Dawn I am...I am really trying to take care of things but I don't even know what I'm doing. Mom always knew. Dawn: Nobody's asking you to be Mom. Buffy: Who's going to be if I'm not? Huh Dawn? Have you even thought about that? Who's gonna make things better? Who's gonna take care of us? I didn't mean to push you away. I didn't. I just...I couldn't let you see me...Oh God Dawnie. I don't know what we're gonna do. I'm scared. Dawn: Buffy... *There's a sudden knock at the door* Buffy: *Buffy turns around* Mommy? Dawn: Buffy... Buffy: Mom. *Buffy goes to open the door as Dawn tears up the photo. Buffy opens the door but there's nobody there* Buffy: Dawn. *Buffy and Dawn hug, fall to the ground, and cry together*
Remember when in the Zeppo a bunch of dudes came back from the dead and although were a little rotten, were just themselves? I wonder why this spell was different.
There's also "Some Assembly Required" from BTVS season 2. Spoilers for Angel The zombie cops in season 2 and the zombie guy in season 3. In all cases the people seem to be themselves. Why does Joyce disappear when the photo of her is torn? If she had been brought back normal if something happened to the photo would that hurt her?
Dawn’s feelings are not exactly logical, but, to use Spike’s eloquent words, she is a teenage hormone bomb. Grief is not logical. I’ve always felt like Dawn gets hurt by small nuances in the episode. Buffy not grieving with her sister? Quickly picking a coffin and wanting to move on? Giving halfhearted attention to dinner/Dawn because she’s focused on planning the funeral? Dawn feels like Buffy is being cold and distant instead of realizing that Buffy is just moving from one task to another because she is in pain and is trying to avoid thinking about it.
I have a huge problem with the Gora demon (apart from the fact that it looks season oney!) Doc tells Spike and Dawn that the only way to acquire one of its eggs is to steal it from its nest. But if a single vampire and a 14 year old kid can steal one (two, technically) right from under it, wouldn’t loads more people/demons/vampires have tried this? Seems like if a whole bunch of demons ganged up on it they’d be able to make off with a few. Seems like there’d be some kind of demonic black market that they could’ve gone to (and you know Spike would know about that). The concept a demonic black market also seems, to me anyway, like a pretty obvious missed opportunity for the show in general
In defense of whatever "season one-y" is (It was the same designer/ FX group season 1 through 5)... little known fact about the Gora... Production forgot to even tell us we had an eighteen foot long, three headed dragon to build, at all. Easily a 6 month job for the 15 of us there were on hand (and certainly not any able to be dedicated to the one piece), they had shaved a cool million off of each episode of the season to pay for this episode - and forgot to mention it to the FX guys at all. They showed up 2 and a half weeks before the episode was supposed to shoot, wanting to see the dragon we had no idea was supposed to exist. The sleep dep to get that and a gargoyle suit done for Angel simultaneously..... my god...... That said... we designed, sculpted, fiberglass body frame, mechanics, dentures (x3), tail mech, and claws in just over 16 days. The fact it looked like an Emmy winning season's work is nothing but pure manic discord falling into place. Pure luck. LOL!
With how almost every complaint Dawn makes is very intentionally countered by everything in the episode, it feels like it has to be, well, intentional. It's not just that she's a kid. I have empathy through experience with what she did, though with less of an excuse to do it. Sometimes, when we're going through grief, we lie. We especially lie to ourselves, but we'll lie to anyone. We feel bad and we lash out, and that lashing out is completely unjustified, so we try to justify it. We can create false memories in the moment like we're rewriting history. But for some people, give us a moment of clarity and none of those feelings go away, but instead a feeling of guilt blankets them as we realize all the lies we just told. It usually takes more time than what's shown in the episode, but, come on man. It's TV. Sometimes you have an entire life summarized in an episode. It very well could be that Dawn, already feeling guilty, lied to herself and Buffy in that scene to try and justify her terrible behavior. I know that sometimes, especially with a depression that can numb me to emotions, I will feel bad for not feeling strong enough. I have an elderly mother with health issues and I worry about her constantly to the point where when she's worse or in pain, I have to put on a face of extra worry when really I feel mostly normal because I'm always worried, I just don't show it. And Dawn reads very similarly to me in this episode, though of course that's a projection bias. When I was younger and I had those feelings of lack of feeling, I hid it poorly, I lied to cover it both to myself and others. And I tried to throw blame where there was none, much like Dawn does. Again, with less of an excuse. I can't justify the show's writing of Dawn and of course, as you say, if the show is meant to be from Dawn's perspective perhaps even if what I went through was their intention, it wasn't communicated as well as it could be. But I can relate to Dawn here. It doesn't make me feel good. It makes me feel guilty. I really hurt people when I was like that. But kind of like Dawn's ending where she tried to do the right thing too late, there was no emotional catharsis when I came back to reality. It was slow, filled with shame, and with no resolution. It was simply a step I had to get past before I could move on to something else. Sometimes catharsis would come after, sometimes those emotions just sort of... Died under the weight of that denial, never to reach true acceptance other than the hindsight to later say, "Oh. Right."
My explanation for Dawn is simple, when siblings are hurting we say things that are very personal. I think Dawn kind of knew her speech would get a rise out of Buffy but the only way kids know how to deal with pain is through these kind of things; Making a big deal out of something that's irrelevant like the choice of coffin; storing up a few slights/incidents in your head and then the 'you don't care about me' gets blurted out. As we get older we learn how to understand and vocalise our feelings. The trouble is Dawn isn't at a stage where she can talk through her grief like Buffy could with Angel. I'd also say this way of processing of your hurt, where you deflect your problem to be about somebody else, is common when guilt is involved and I wonder if deep down Dawn is feeling guilty about Joyce's death. Perhaps it's related to her feeling like all she does is cause pain as people around her protect her. I'm not sure it's realistic to say she would figure out even herself that quickly why she was projecting her hurt onto Buffy beyond it being just grief. However I find the contrast between the two sisters grieving at different ages concluding with them grappling with the fact that their sibling relationship needs to mature fascinating. I'm sure they could have gone into their grieving a lot more but I guess we need to remember that having the show focus so much on a natural death was a risk and as much as 'The Body' is beloved by fans now, I sure there were powerful people pushing to get back to the slayer stuff.
Whelp... I'm going to be up late tonight thinking about those questions you asked at the end. Thanks for that lol. I really love the scene where Spike tries to deliver flowers. Spike and Joyce being friends was one of my favourite little side plots. For me, it really shows that the line between soulless evil vampire and ensouled good vampire is more blurred than they think. I mean, would a soulless monster really genuinely give flowers to his "enemy" because their mom died? I doubt it. Thanks for another excellent analysis, Ian.
I agree that the show is inconsistent in its approach to soulled and soulless creatures. But Spike is obsessed with Buffy sexually and romantically at this point. Very very far from seeing her as an enemy. I do think he liked Joyce as much as he could without a soul, but I also think whether soulless or not he's always been love's bitch. He gets consumed by love, whether it's Drusilla or Buffy. And unlike Angel and Buffy who come out of that phase, he never leaves it. And his love as a vampire can never truly be selfless. We see some sobering instances of that.
There was a Buffy comic called Tales of the Vampires. It was basically an anthology of short stories about different vampires in the Buffyverse. One of the Jane Espenson stories was called 'Father' and it followed the life of a man turned into a vampire in 1922. Before he died, the vampire had a son. And when he rose, he went home, stood over his his son's bed... and then raised him as a single father. He'd take his son to the fair and pier for corn dogs and wait until his son was sleeping before going out to feed. When his son got married and had a kid of his own, the vampire was a doting grandad. But the mother-in-law didn't trust him on a gut feeling. So he killed the mother-in-law. The son didn't speak to his father for the next 50 years. As he nears his 80s, the son finally reaches out to his father and resumes contact. And from then on, until he is on his deathbed, the father looks after his son. And maybe an hour before he passes, a slayer comes crashing through the door and stakes the father. The soul canon and its place in a vampire's ability to love in the Buffyverse is mercurial. We see a multitude of different kinds of love. We see vampires that form nests for protection, but will abandon each other the moment their existence is at risk (Mr. Trick) all the way up to all consuming couples that ends with suicide if one loses the other (James & Elisabeth). Maybe Ian is right about the echo of the person is left behind in the body and that is what is imprinted on the demon that takes over. But if that is correct, then the Father in the story loved his son so much, that the demon never could have conceived of hurting him. In which case, a vampire can love unselfishly.
I wonder if Dawn's comment around Buffy avoiding her was actually just projection. As she asked to stay with Willow/Tara and the times we see Buffy looking at her, she isn't looking at Buffy.
I think it was a bit of both. Buffy was distant, but not avoiding. But Dawn may have projected her feelings of being alone in her grief- and perhaps fears of Buffy no longer wanting her around now that they don't have a mother tying them together as a family. Buffy's distance and Dawn's grief and insecurities are probably why Dawn was so angry toward Buffy.
What happened to the Buffy guides after this episode? I am so impressed by the clarity, maturity and compassion of the psychological analyses! More please!
Every time I get a notification for one of these, I get SO happy! Thank you Ian so much! I know these are a ton of work but I really hope you know that you have completely transformed a series so dear to me into so, so much more! Thank you! Seriously you are my favorite video essay channels and you are so appreciated!
I'm a bit in disagreement regarding the end. Dawn ripping up the picture is the first moment in the entire episode where she considers someone other than herself when it comes to the impact of Joyce's death. Buffy's breakdown feels a bit unearned, but I do think her cracking under the pressure of everything is compelling. All that aside, it's very nice to be able to catch another one of your videos. The day to night shot and the shot from the two girls and their rooms with family photos are moments of cinema that I missed. I love having more to love about a thing that I love.
This episode could've really benefited from having a perspective on Dawn and her plight would held a lot more weight to it. I feel like doing this episode like two episodes later would given it certain breathing room and allowed for certain things to come across differently. Not the whole episode, just certain parts of it. Also, I know which character in Angel that you were referring to and we'll get there, eventually.
I really wish we had seen more of dawn's perspective. However I think the end of the episode is very well done. I think we're supposed to be terrified of whatever is coming to the house, I think dawn ripping the photo is a tremendous moment of character growth, even if how she came upon it doesn't make sense. grief is such a warping force to your brain in a way I desperately wish I didn't understand.
Sometimes, we wail for a cure to our anguish. But we're 14 years old and we don't even know what to *ask* for, and nobody else is predicting our needs. Which is what our mother's job always was. But she's not here anymore. So we rage against our new environment which can't (or won't?) give us the inexplicable thing that we're missing. Because at least it feels like a structure. And a creaking shack of anger is better than nothing.
I was watching these in parallel as I watched the show for the first time and I was sad when I passed the point your videos covered. Now I’ll be looking forward to them as they release. Thanks for the interesting commentary and discussions
Your comments and criticisms of this episode in particular are fascinating, and I think have helped me organize and work out my own reactions and opinions on episodes of this and other series - when something just feels off, or wrong, and I can't quite figure out why. I feel strangely unimpressed and almost angry about the Angel episode "Fredless," and haven't yet found another's analysis or reaction that mirrors mine, so I'm left trying to work it out alone. It's so beloved by so many - why didn't it work for me? Not sure yet. Your points and arguments here feel close to it, and I'm eager for your eventual video for that episode. Brilliant stuff from you, as always.
I think i get Dawn more with every rewatch. She was written as a bratty teenager and she totally is, but i get it. j.get her desperate need to have her mom back. And the feet show the joyce thing dragging iit's feet, obviously not quite her, i think showing the worry the girls aare feeling. Dawn destroyed the picture because it was obvious Buffy woyld have a hard tine killing a joyce monster. I get it, and i don't think i could had the strength to do it myself.
@@ninjanibba4259 She's a teenager who's father has abandoned her, her mother has died, and her caregiver has world-saving responsibilities. It makes sense that she would feel neglected and seek attention. I felt lonely as a teenager and I had parents.
@@Scarygothgirl the girl is the same way throughout her runtime, I don't care if she lost her pet goldfish, her character is annoying asf and I don't care about her The show got ruined adding her with dumb retcon
*spoilers for S6* Leash is a good description for the chip in my opinion. The chip helps encourage habitual behaviour but that's not the same as true change. True change has to be freely given. And once that leash is no longer in place, Spike immediately tries to bite/hurt others. The writing is inconsistent at times about souls, but it's consistent enough that, to me, it's clear soulless vampires can't be truly "good".
yes true change has to be freely given and also i don't fully trust Spike's intentions as being altruistic regarding the flowers when Buffy has recently told him to stay away from her and leave Sunnydale after he chained her up and almost got her killed. He could have left the flowers at Joyce's grave and we see that he went there later but he didn't.
@@jpreaux2268 That's a very good point. For me, Spike did like Joyce, but his soulless nature would mean that, like his love, his liking could never be wholly altruistic or selfless. He liked her cos of what she gave him: a listening ear, hot cocoa and marshmallows etc. He liked her because she represented the mother figure he lost. His liking Joyce was still about him.
This timing is spectacular! I'm reading Spike's poem at a Carnegie Arts Center tonight for a poetry slam, lol. Anyone know if it has an official title? I may upload it to YT; should be very "arty".😁 I'm on another rewatch, so I just saw this one about 2 weeks ago and *in the context of the series* I agree with others who said that Dawn had been ignored. Maybe it's bc I HAVE been a teen girl once. Maybe it was Michelle's acting. All I can say is that, yes, Buffy was numb but she came across as cold from *Dawn's perspective* imo. I also liked the silhouette. I liked that they spoon-fed that piece of information to us bc sometimes, I can be a little dense.😂 Not a favorite episode by any means, certainly frustrating, but I could finally relate to Dawn. It was brilliant to leave Spike out of The Body and bring him back here. These guides are always so thorough and thought-provoking.✌
Very interesting video for sure with a lot of good points made. I somewhat feel as though maybe there should have been an in-between episode, showing Dawn's alleged feelings of isolation and hurt. It always felt to me like they wanted a big climax to the emotions felt both here and in The Body, but did so by undermining their own potential with the characters. I also felt that Dawn's teenage angst was often used to make her more of a catalyst/object for events than an actual person, as with certain writers, you can have things happen with certain people under the guise of "They're a kid, of course they'd do something stupid" as a means of shortcutting organic development. When Dawn has legitimate moments of character, such as the self-harm scene after discovering she is the key, it feels very impactful as we understand how traumatic such a revelation would be. But here, it felt sadly artificial. Excellent video as always Ian, I hope you're doing alright
I understand what you're saying about the ickiness of seeing Joyce's feet and shadow in the end, it does feel tasteless, but for some reason that sequence is one of the most memorable of the show for me. I find it genuinely frightening. SMG's performance always makes me cry, and because I'm crying I think my fear of whatever is outside is so much more intense.
The decision to have the resurrected loved one behind a door but never seen is a reference to the short story "The Monkeys Paw," in which a magical wosh-granted Monkeys Paw always leads to negative outcomes. Clearly an influence on Joss and this episode.
Dawn is Buffy's mirror. She simply tells us how Buffy really feels. Buffy feels withdrawn and disconnected from everyone and had shut down to cope with her grief, and Dawn feels this keenly as her sister. The only difference is that Dawn can actually say the thoughts that Buffy will not.
And Finally Ian , this is a wonderful review , I know I have a pension of saying that , But everytime that I think it can't get better , you amaze me , Honestly I am so glad you are doing these reviews and giving them the care they deserve to that all I can say is Thank you
I really liked the scene at the end with Buffy and Dawn. Even though I don’t always like how the show treats dawns character (especially in season 6). It felt very real to me, and like dawn hadn’t really understood that Buffy was human too since her responsibilities as a slayer so often take her away from dawn.
Re: Spike. He is an anomaly. Moments after his first chip experience, he reassures Willow because he doesn't want her to feel bad. This allows her to get the drop on him. Re : The ick factor. This was a big Monkeys Paw homage. The point is the nightmare of it. Dawn tried to take what wasn't hers.
I think Buffy was still being strong with Angel. Her true moment of vulnerability was with Dawn. That's why Buffy had to be saved in that moment. She fell apart and all that was left was the little girl who wants her mom back. That's why she says "mommy". Dawn, in a rare role reversal, saves Buffy. She's the strong one for Buffy cause she finally understands what Buffy is going through.
Bro, have you never see a teenager in an argument? They straight up lie to get an emotional response from people because they don't know how to articulate their desire to connect. Also, this episode ruined me as a child because I found the bit with Joyce horrifying in a very Lovecratian sense. Now it ruins me emotionally. I still feel like Dawn in this episode, and my mom died in 2020.
I remember *being* a teenager in an argument. I had a combative relationship with my father and would often take it out on other people. ... That's a common way to deal with frustration if you're a teenager, but that doesn't mean such behaviour would be pleasant to be around or compelling to watch in and of itself. And it gets harder to sympathise with if you're watching a show where you're far more connected to the people the teenager is yelling at than the teenager doing the yelling. We see so much of Buffy's grief that we know exactly how she feels, and how off Dawn's perspective on the situation is, but we're never brought into Dawn's view of the situation in the way we're brought into Buffy's.
@@Talisguy That's subjective. I find it compelling enough, but I don't really see Dawn as a full character until season 6. She's just kind of a mechanism for Buffy to feel things in this season, at least for me.
Buffy, Dawn, and Xander were also all teenagers when the show started. None of them are shortchanged in an episode like this one during those early seasons. Also, I just don't find the fact that something exists in the actual world a strong argument for it being satisfying storytelling.
@@MANJYOMETHUNDER111 Let me put it this way: I think it was incredibly risky to have a younger character who was inserted into the show at the start of *this season* lash out at people we've known for years and expect us to sympathise with the kid. Traditionally, kid characters added to previously existing team dynamics tend not to be popular with fans, and we're likely to have much more attachment to the people we've spent more time with than we do to her. This episode had an uphill battle and it made things even harder for itself by not making us feel Dawn's perspective at the start of the episode. Maybe if *Buffy* had suggested Dawn going over to Willow and Tara's in a misguided attempt to try and shield Dawn from the stuff surrounding the funeral, and *Dawn* had been hurt, but agreed to it, that could have helped.
I was in the middle of watching Buffy at 15 the same year my dad died. I remember how cathartic The Body felt, and this episode felt like a straight up horror at times. I used to have nightmares about my father coming back from the dead "changed" or "different". Despite the obvious flaws of this episode, I think the final few scenes really lend themselves to psychological horror elements - the implications of being able to bring a lost loved one back if they weren't quite themselves. I feel like the Black Mirror episode "Be Right Back" delves into that a bit too.
Without fail, the final moments of Forever always send a shiver down my spine. That moment when "Joyce" knocks on the door and Buffy turns and says: "Mommy" are incredibly frightening to me. No matter how many times I rewatch the show and see different episodes over and over again, that moment remains the most hair-raising. Right up to the door swinging open to reveal an empty porch step. For all of the criticisms given to this episode, that moment remains one of the most viscerally affecting from the show for me.
The Monkey's Paw episode. I do like this one. Other commenters explained Dawn's perspective wonderfully already. So I won't rehash. I'm torn on the images of the feet and the silhouette. On the one hand, it's obvious that whatever is coming - a resurrected Joyce, or some monster in Joyce's body or form, or something else - was wrong in some way, and it made you dread what would be on the other side of the door. On the other hand, it might have been even more spooky with just the knock, especially since from Buffy and Dawn's perspective, that's all they're aware of. Certainly, it would have been more ambiguous, and therefore more in keeping to The Monkey's Paw.
But dawn didn't get to see all of the breakdowns that buffy had or the rest of them. From her point of view buffy looks distant and is not answering her questions and is kinda dismissive. Willow says maybe you and buffy would do something after the service and buffy wasn't listening to her then she didn't put any fight to her going with willow and Tara. Then willow and Tara refuse to help her (from her point of view) watch the body and forever again but skip everything that doesn't have dawn in it and pay attention to buffys face and dawns face. ❤
Just one more thought to illustrate what I was saying, it's like in the season 6 episode when Hallie talks about how much paint on is in and no one can hear it. This is actually demonstrating that where we are the people who hear what she is saying but don't really hear it at all because it seems unreasonable to us. It is the perspective from the outside is and there is power to that I think.
I don't think I'm ever gonna get past Willow helping Dawn access that spell. Even with her established terribly unhealthy pattern of shortcutting and/or blotting out pain with magic, it just feels so much more stupid than the intelligent character we knew from the first three seasons. Would Willow really be that stupid?
Marti Noxon is credited with this episode and I see her as a structural writer. Tables are consistently turned as witnessed in 'I Only Have Eyes for You' and 'A New Moon Rising', and I think this is another example. That Dawn is a self-centered unempathetic pain is a fine lead-up to the table-flip in the final act where she assumes the mature caregiver role. In sabotaging the spell, she sacrifices her ultimate wish in order to save a now-infantile Buffy. So I'm not sure a 'Dawn perspective' would have served the purpose of this script. My only complaint is a lack of follow-through in the final scene where I would have preferred that Dawn keep cradling Buffy in a motherly manner through the tears. This would have established a new-found maturity for Dawn which would carry over into future episodes even so far as 'Older and Far Away' where she is again angsty but more a victim of circumstance.
Even back when I hated Dawn this was the one episode that her behavior didn't irritate me because she clearly deserved a pass. The perspective of the audience is not the same as her perspective as she doesn't see the same things we do. It's already been established on the show how Dawn views Buffy as always keeping her at a distance instead of being emotionally open to her. You can just see from her expressions what Dawn is going through and there's no need for more than that because Michelle Trachtenberg is such a gifted actress. For whatever reason it always worked for me. The footprints and silhouette were meant to build the feeling of dread for us that Dawn was feeling about doing the spell and were very effective at that. There's always such a feeling of relief when the door is opened and nobody is there along with the sadness. In retrospect maybe it would have been cool to have a zombie Joyce on the show and I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing more of the actress, maybe doing a Santa Clara Diet type character long before Drew Barrymore did it.
The feet walking and the silhouette in the window feeling "creepy": I think that is absolutely right, though. It is supposed to feel wrong, because, resurrecting the dead is "wrong".
Ian- this comes in a fair pace faster. Does this mean we will complete Season Five before the end of 2023? I've been promoting your channel over on the Buffy fan page I'm part of Hope it yields more subscribers
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I was sick while recording so the audio might've be a little wonky. Apologies. Big thanks to Jack for helping out with the edit on his first episode guide. Next up is Disharmony, the script for which is 70 percent done. Firefly hangout next weekend.
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We just added the movie commentaries as a bonus for TH-cam Membership. Jack is working on our 6th: IT Chapter 1, which we had a lot of fun with. Anyway that's it. More soon!
-Ian
Hope you feel better soon, Ian. Your reviews & analyses are the reason YT was invented: precise, reflective, very thoughtful & _always_ giving me an idea -or many -I hadn’t previously thought of. Thank you, Ian.
I hope you know it always makes my day when I see you've made a new video. I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos.
Interesting, I always found Dawn’s perspective to be understandable, while also being clearly untrue. For me, the direction generally helps support that. Like, for a small example, we the audience see Buffy looking at Dawn in the funeral home, but Dawn literally can’t see it from the position she’s in. Similarly, we the audience have seen things like Buffy crying over dishes and confiding in Angel…but Dawn has not. We saw Buffy’s extremely emotional outburst on finding Joyce in “The Body”, but Dawn only saw Buffy being shut down. Again, we the audience know exactly why Buffy is reacting that way - she is overwhelmed by shock and grief. We know that, but Dawn perceives it as emotionlessness. And on some level she knows it’s because Buffy is upset, but she doesn’t truly understand it. ‘Why isn’t Buffy upset like I’m upset? How can she not be collapsing to the floor in her grief?’ Which she did, of course, but Dawn did not see that. I know in my own life there have been a lot of times where I perceived someone’s emotions or actions to mean one thing, when in reality they meant something else entirely.
Dawn can sense on some level that Buffy is holding herself back from expressing her true emotions. For Buffy, she feels like it’s what she has to do to keep going. For Dawn, who doesn’t understand why but can still tell it’s happening, her mind jumps to the worst scenario. “Buffy doesn’t want to show emotion around me. Why can’t she share this grief with me? Why does she feel so distant? She must not want to be around me. After all, I’m not even really her sister. She just feels obligated, like she’s obligated to do everything else.” It’s a wrongheaded train of thought, but one that I think makes sense based in what Dawn’s perspective has been, and her own anxieties about her existence. Which, despite the reassurances that Buffy gave before, wouldn’t be something she’d just get over. That fear would still be lurking in her mind.
Which isn’t to say all of that is portrayed perfectly here, but honestly it really works for me and this is one of my favorite follow-up episodes.
Yes, as annoying as Dawn is her perspective made sense to me in this episode, and you articulated why. We know Buffy is keeping it together because she has to, but what Dawn sees is her sister being distant and professional, rather than warm and vulnerable. I think that says a lot of about conflicting expectations placed on Buffy and women in positions of responsibility, but it's also an understandable need on Dawn's part, to see the side of Buffy she's withholding from the world.
I agree with you on a lot of what you’ve said. But I do also think that the structure of the episode supports how Dawn feels. As an audience we get to see each of the character deal, each having their own person (except Giles) to turn to for that comfort. Dawn doesn’t get one of those scenes because she doesn’t have anyone - the closest she comes to is Spike, who through not having a soul can’t comfort Dawn in the way she needs, so takes at face value what she tells him she wants.
As an audience we see Dawn how the other characters do - perhaps a bit irritating and selfish - but none of them try to connect to her on a level to understand her behaviour/reactions.
For example, that end speech ‘you won’t even look at me’ we see buffy looking at Dawn directly in nearly every seen, but Dawn doesn’t see that. When someone feels isolated they will often act in a way to cause more isolation, and I think that’s what Dawn is doing, to the other character and the audience.
I think this is huge foreshadowing for Dawns arc in 6, leading to pretty much the same speech at the end of Grave.
I like your analysis but IF those feelings of Dawn’s are to be believed & IF we justify Dawn’s actions or responses we _must_ see this on film: or it’s irrelevant. IF Dawn simply doesn’t see Buffy’s reactions or Buffy’s own quiet, private misery, then the episode needs to explain it without our separate or discrete involvement. Our interpretation cannot suffice for something that is lacking ….
We also need to remember she’s processing this through the lens of still doubting her own personhood and belonging as a Summer. Yes, the matter was put to rest in Joyce’s and Buffy’s minds, but was it truly in Dawn’s? Joyce was “normal”-her choosing to love Dawn could be seen as without obligation. But Buffy is the Chosen One-she *has* to protect the key as a product of her calling and very existence. (Again, a skewed perspective but up there with the teen who believes their parent loves them out of obligation, not choice.)
I don't agree that Dawn's perspective is "clearly wrong". From her perspective, it feels true to her. My mother died when I was 18 and my sister 16. I reacted like Buffy and my sister like Dawn tbh.
"You won't even look at me. It's so obvious that you don't want me around" - Buffy has been doing all the things that need to be done when someone dies. She is in shock and not emotionally present. Dawn perceives that as Buffy being cold to her and not wanting to spend the time to connect with her. Let's not forget that throughout most of season 5 Buffy already acted like Dawn was a hindrance. She no longer has her mom and now only has her distant big sister. Her mom was always much warmer to her than Buffy
"Mom died and it's like you don't even care" Buffy hasn't shown her grief to Dawn leading Dawn to feel isolated in her grief. We know that as the slayer Buffy cuts herself off, but Dawn doesn't know how to do that. She perceives it as indifference.
"I don't have anybody" - I think here she means "of my own". Buffy has all her support system. None of Dawn's friends showed up at the funeral or are shown to have been there for her. There's a difference between shallow friendships in school and people who will show up when things are hard. Dawn only has Buffy's friends which feels isolating.
Yep, Buffy is the only true connection for Dawn now. Spike is her friend (and she knows she can't fully trust him), but everyone else in the group is just her babysitter. And it's not just thinking her only loved one is rejecting her, Dawn has to, for survival, know if Buffy will step into the role of mother for her. She's extra susceptible to feeling like a burden (because she is one) and is wanting reassurance that she's going to be taken care of. That's why Buffy's "who's going to take care of us?" is so devastating, because you can see Dawn realize for the first time that Buffy is a kid too. They need to take care of each other (even though their relationship isn't going to be balanced like that moving forward). Her ripping up the picture is an act of maturity, of protecting Buffy from further pain.
Yes, and while people who didn't lose parents at a young age can understandable miss some of those nuances, those of us who have can see that this episode hit so deep into what really happens that it's almost like reliving it. I was in a state of shock watching this episode - It was incredible, and gave voice to everything I went through in a way I never expected. One more point - while we on the outside can see Buffy caring and looking at Dawn, re-watch - Dawn never sees it. She is looking down, in the other direction, or inwardly. She has no solid or grounding force but Buffy, and Buffy is being strong - which looks like emotionless rejection to a child with no experience - even a teenager who thinks she sees everything (like all of us at that age). Dawn's preemptive rejections are defenses. She is so lost inside her grief that she can't see anyone else's.
I think the disconnect may also be intentional. Dawn in her grief resorts to something wrong for wrong reasons. It cuts Buffy and Dawn off from each other's experiences, because she's not real and she's a teenager. Of course, a better episode might've done more with that concept or made it work better....
@@michaeldeboer yep, this is how I perceive it, too (both your perspective and FallenPrincess’s). I this case I believe the intent was to differentiate reality from Dawn’s perception. Not to say Dawn’s perception was invalid-it’s genuinely how she felt. And it makes sense-all Buffy’s friends were present, but Dawn’s weren’t. Buffy was trying to protect Dawn from an emotional breakdown, so Dawn interprets that as “not caring”. And Dawn is internalizing the death through the lens of not being secure that she’s really a person. (I think this is the critical part.). Dawn is suffering compound trauma … and as a child.
> Interesting, I always found Dawn’s perspective to be understandable, while also being clearly untrue.
I think a common experience in (romantic) relationships is fights in which one person makes an exaggerated untrue statement, such as "you always [...]" or "you never [...]".
I think Dawn is doing something similar here: driven by an unbearably uncomfortable emotion, she expresses her authentic perspective with exaggerated factual claims.
It's annoying to deal with, but none of us get to choose how others express themselves. I think one reasonable approach is to guess what their perspective is, then "what I'm hearing you say is [guess]; did I understand you correctly?", then respond only once they say yes.
I disagree with your analysis of the ending. I think they specifically showed us Joyce's feet and silhouette to make it clear that whatever was out there was not Joyce. There was something distinctly unnatural about how steady and even her walking was. Like she was a robot or a puppet. Also, she wouldn't have just knocked, she would have been calling out to her girls.
But at that moment, Buffy was so desperate for her mom back that she was willing to accept any part of what might've been her mother. So Dawn took the burden of the adult decision from Buffy's shoulders and made the adult decision to stop the spell before they had the memory of their mother tainted forever.
I definitely agree with a lot of your assessments of the episode, but I think it's an interesting subversion of Stephen King's Pet Semetary and (unwittingly) is one of the most important episodes leading into Season 6.
First off I completely agree with your first paragraph. However when Buffy was resurrected she was a mute for quite a bit.
@@speabody Buffy was mute because she was severely traumatized. She woke up in her own coffin, breathing nothing but stale air, no light (remember, we can see Sarah because of the lighting, so we can watch the character panic, but in universe it would be pitch black), and has to break the coffin lid, dig her way up six feet of dirt, while breathing that stale and diminishing air to reach... nothing. A quiet graveyard with a headstone bearing her name, birth and death years and an epitaph.
She starts wandering towards Sunnydale, the place that was home, a place that she knows to find it a fiery hellscape, occupied by demons that are openly rioting in the streets, terrorizing what she gave her life to protect. She's subjected to painful imagery and sounds on senses that are both dulled and sharpened at the same time (loud, intense noises like the car alarm and gunshot, she can hear painfully well, but lower registry not so great and her eyes aren't working well at this point) and that segment ends with her watching a pack of demons rip her (the buffybot) into pieces. And all Buffy can do is scream "No!" In a futile effort to get them to stop.
She runs, chased by the demons, into... her friends. Who mock her and try to get her to leave them alone (thinking she is the Buffybot) and she's finished. She huddles up in the alley, completely broken as they piece together what happened and drop the bombshell that barely penetrates Buffy's mind. They are responsible for this. She was at peace, at rest, and now she's been ripped out of her good afterlife and back into the harsh light of the world... by the people that she trusted and depended on.
Is it any wonder that it took most of the episode before she could even speak a full sentence?
Joyce on the other hand, was likely mute because what was outside wasn't her. Or at least not fully.
We see around three resurrection rituals in the entirety of Buffy. We see Jack O'Toole in 'The Zeppo' who is basically raising zombies that have their personalities intact. Crude and blunt, just like the caster.
We see Dawn's spell that requires a chant, a demon egg, candles and a focus. But there isn't a cost to the caster. Jack needed to cut his palm and give blood, we see the trials that Willow endures during her ritual, but the spell Dawn uses for Joyce doesn't have a cost or exchange.
And then we have Willow's spell was considered by some degree allowed, because Buffy died under supernatural means and that required blood, candles, chants, a focus, forced Willow through multiple horrific and painful trials and had the rest of the scoobies there to hold the circle for the ritual. And Buffy still didn't come back 100% as she was before dying. She came back about 99% of exactly who and what she was (hence Spike's chip not activating when he would hit her).
You're wasting your breath...he just doesn't get it and is constantly reaching for things to critique because this show is unassailable to anyone who understands alchemical literature...which is pretty much nobody...especially those doing TH-cam critiques of the greatest televion show of all time...your comment is EXACTLY right and yup, EVERYONE of Buffy's generation will be thinking Pet Semetary with those creepy shoes and silhouette and so, there was NO question whether or not she would come back changed...also, he forgets that in syndication Dawn was hated...she was an outsider that robbed the viewers of the history of the beloved first 4 seasons...making her annoying was a nod to the audience and we all appreciated it at the time...he is wrong when he says it's a Dawn episode...it is not....every episode is a BUFFY episode....Xander, Willow, Giles, Spike and Dawn are always telling the BUFFY story...we don't care how she feels because we have no history with her and Joyce's death IS sacred...Nerd contradicts himself constantly because rather than doing vids about the genius and alchemy, he thinks he is qualified to CRITIQUE IT....a common casualty of a university education rampant in these vids on TH-cam... a "Dawn episode" immediately following "The Body" would've NOT been well received...for VERY GOOD reason.....and the writers knew that and that is why she is so isolated and doesn't have a lover to share her grief with...she's the outsider and keeping her as such while we all grieved a history with Joyce that for us, the audience, Dawn had NOTHING to do with was recompense to the audience imo and it also fits in with what Dawn represents in the bigger picture....Nerd is clueless but yet, I still watch...because I LOVE his sense of humor....and he does catch stuff I miss...but his primary mistake is making critiques rather than just straight up analyses....we live in an era where people think their opinions, whether educated or not, need to be voiced...they don't....;)
Dawn tearing up Joyce's photograph was a pivotal moment for her character, as it showed Dawn being the one to protect Buffy for once. When it all came down to it, she couldn't let Buffy carry that on her shoulders along with everything else.
That shot where day turns to night around Buffy and then a hand is around hers is one of my favourites from the series. "I'm sorry I couldn't come sooner." I just love that. As you say, Ian, even with everything that has happened between them and to them, it wasn't even a question in Angel's mind of whether he would come, but when. And the same for her. She shows zero surprise at his appearance. She's waiting at the graveside. Waiting for the night. Waiting for him. Knowing he would come. Beautifully shot. Beautiful moment 💗
Very beautiful moment❤️
Yes 🥺
Oh that's a gorgeous summary too.
I think one of the things I love about the confrontation between Dawn and Buffy is the moment when Buffy gives in.
Dawn's way of coping throughout the entire episode has been combative. She's defining herself by the state of opposition she has to Buffy. That feeling of conflict makes her feel strong. Her mother is gone, there is nothing to fight, nothing to do except grieve. And she can't. So instead she takes those instincts to fight for her mother and turns them into a fight with her sister.
But that moment in the confrontation with Buffy when Buffy hears the knock at the door all of that goes away. For everything Buffy has said about how Dawn can't do this, she wants it to be true. She wants Joyce the be on the other side of that door. The moment Dawn sees that, she's in freefall. She's been supporting herself through this fight with Buffy. She's been pushing on Buffy to keep herself standing. In that moment, Buffy gives, and Dawn has nothing bracing her anymore. With that fall, comes a horrifying moment of clarity that she can't do this. She always knew she couldn't do this but losing the one person in her life would inforce it. Losing Buffy being there to say "No" and she's suddenly in the terrifying position of having the make the decision entirely alone.
You make a good point about everything she says in the argument being bullshit. And it is. It's an excuse for a fight that she needs or she'll break down. When Buffy turns to the door, suddenly everything she'd been saying becomes true. She is alone, Buffy won't look at her, and in that moment she has to make an adult decision all by herself.
I think it's one of the first points at which Dawn starts to become a character that's more than just Buffy's bratty sister.
"defining herself by the state of opposition" is the perfect way to define Dawn in this episode. She can't allow herself to be vulnerable because the second she does then it all becomes real, if she feels the pain then the loss exists and she can't let the loss exist yet. So she fights, she fights everyone and everything because as long as she's fighting there is still hope. And like you said the second there is nothing to fight against she falls, not only does she fall she sees Buffy fall. Buffy falls violently, explicitly in a way that can't be hidden or obscured and in that moment *Dawn* has to make the mature choice and be someone her sister can brace herself against. Ending the episode with them leaning on each other, helping each other with their grief and pain was perfect imo.
i agree with absolutely all of this, and i think it's why none of dawn's behaviour really bothered me. her combative and rude behaviour is all a defense mechanism, and when buffy's vulnerability comes front and center in a way she can't simply wave away with more "it's like you don't even care" nonsense, she comes back to earth and realizes she can't do this to Joyce, no matter how much she wants her back. it's an incredibly mature move for a character far too young to have to make such a decision and it gave me a lot of respect for her, as well as lots of hindsight empathy for her actions throughout the episode
Beautifully articulated
All of the comments in this thread are accurate, but I'd like to add this - the things that Dawn chooses to target aren't fully unjustified. Throughout the sequence at the funeral parlor, Buffy seemingly dismisses Dawn after she tries to connect with her sister, saying it was probably a bad idea for her to come and not including her in the decision. At the house planning the service, Dawn's back is already up from the previous scene, and now she once again feels she's being ignored as every time she tries to ask a question and get involved in the process, Buffy comes to a decision without bothering to ask Dawn her opinion. Then the funeral happens, and while Dawn breaks down in tears, Buffy stands stoic. When Willow and Tara escort her away and she learns Buffy intends to stay longer, Dawn looks back at her sister with a longing look (as though Dawn WANTS Buffy to stop her). So, honestly, her response and what she chooses to be combatant about isn't just bull. I mean, yeah, it is, but we, the audience, are the only ones who know that. To Dawn, it makes sense to fight her sister on these things because this is what she's observed. To gloss over this is doing a real disservice to how the episode is structured and written, as it does add to Dawn's motivation here.
@@DigiDestined13 This is SUCH a good analysis!!
Buffy and Dawn's breakdown at the end of this episode is one of the best acted scenes in television history. Both actresses gave it everything and Sarah Michelle Gellar breaks my fucking heart. "Cause when I stop...then she's really gone". CHILLS. 👏
My biggest issue with this episode is Cordelia's absence. Cordelia would have shown up for Joyce's funeral. Her whole thing is that she acts like she doesn't care but she does care when it matters. Remember how gentle she was in season 2 when Jenny was killed and Willow was in the hospital? Or the time Buffy asked her to drive her home when she was hurt by Giles? She would have been there for Buffy when her mother died.
omg YES
Ehhh I doubt it. I’ve known people who died that I knew OF much like Cordelia did with Joyce and I didn’t go to their funerals… especially when I lived a distance the way Cordelia does to Buffy. I mean, not once did she go back to Sunnydale in the series.
Cordy would’ve sent a very nice card, but her relationship to the Summers’s isn’t a travel-to-the-funeral one.
I think the fact that ANGEL does go is the biggest thing that doesn't explain why Cordelia didn't. She most certainly would have had the opportunity but it would have made Angel's reveal less of a surprise. Though it was given away in the on air promo for the episode it was shot to be a surprise.
Wesly probably would have attended the funeral too. Proper English man he is
I understand your perspective around Dawn and the execution of her arc. In my reading, I never assumed Dawn’s perspective was meant to be conveyed to the audience as rationale - in her grief as a teenager, she was displaying misdirected aggression and blaming Buffy for not being supportive enough for her, which is consistent with Dawn’s behaviour and her being a young teen and the youngest child. Dawn is relying on Buffy now to be her protective adult figure now that their mum is dead, but Buffy herself is barely coping. But it’s understandably easier for Dawn to internalise to herself that Buffy doesn’t care because the alternative is Dawn accepting her only remaining blood family isn’t able to give her that complete security she needs right now, and that’s scary. The climax of the episode was Buffy opening up and admitting she’s struggling to look after Dawn, and that’s when Dawn accepts that and they reconcile.
Also, not to disagree with you a second time in an episode, but that shot where Joyce’s silhouette walks past the window terrifies me - I reacted to it like a jump scare without it being a jump scare. I think it’s one of the scariest shots in the show for me!
I agree with all of this. Great points.
I can't really agree with the notion that the bit where we see Joyce is tasteless. We're SUPPOSED to feel like it's a perversion of The Body, and not seeing her directly is far more unsettling.
We'll never know what was waiting outside.
Didn't work for me but I did say it was bias. (Also, semantic point but...wouldn't a perversion by definition be considered tasteless?)
@@PassionoftheNerd - so was the magic spell that Dawn tried to cast. That's sort of the point. It's defiling something that should've just been left alone - like maybe I dunno, a legacy, or something? Bringing your dead relative or friend or a celebrity back to life where they come out Wrong is far worse than just letting them R.I.P.
Wish I could explain it better, but I think I get what the episode was going for well enough..? That scene unnerves me too, but I think it was supposed to. It's a genre-crossing show and horror is a huge part of it.
@@PassionoftheNerd I think yes. Dawn should have let Joyce rest in peace.
@@PassionoftheNerd Respect for your bias. Disagree with your semantic argument, as perversion refers to altering/corrupting something against its original intent. If all things so altered were tasteless and therefore should be omitted from the show, then we wouldn't have any vampires or penis monsters (gasp!). LOL You get my point. ...not that one.
All we know for sure about the Joyce that was brought back, is that it is not a Zombie.
Spike stated that a spell requiring more than grave dirt is "Zombie territory". There was no body to have to return to the grave, the grave itself was not disturbed (I assume, because joyce completely disappeared when the photo was destroyed) So this joyce is a shadow of what she used to be. Like the photo itself.
This episode is based on "The Monkey's Paw", a horror short story by English author W. W. Jacobs. It first appeared in Harper's Monthly in 1902. In the story, three wishes are granted to the owner of The Monkey's Paw, but the wishes come with an enormous price for interfering with fate. It ends also with someone opening their house door hoping to see a resurrected person, while someone else destroys the paw, so nobody's at the door.
i don't think the original ends with the paw being destroyed, i think it ends with the final wish being to stop the resurrection out of fear.
i also find it annoying that, in the Monkey's Paw, their son dies in a factory accident, with the body mutilated, and part of the reasoning behind canceling the resurrection was the fear that the zombie would still be mutilated from the factory accident. Joyce's body was mostly still intact, so, there's much less reason to fear she might be being put through unnecessary pain.
I remember when I watched The Body for the first time, I was just kinda in shock. No tears, no breakdowns. And yet, when watching Forever, watching the two sisters crying at end somehow just broke me. Ugly, ugly tears
Same dude. The body is amazing of course but I didn't get it as a kid. Forever is the one that destroyed me
That scene of the day fading to night and the camera panning up to Angel is one of my favorite from both series. Excellent.
To me the ickiness and sacrilege were a big part of what made the episode terrifying. The idea of seeing their Mom, their comforter and such a warm character being turned into something dark and rotting made the shadow on the window absolutely petrifying to me, it was definitely an "Oh dear god, no!" moment when I first watched it. Buffy giving in and regressing to the state of a child instead of fighting this gross infraction was the absolute perfect harrowing addition for me, with SMG's fantastic delivery.
I find Dawn being a stupid teenager understanding, as I was a teenager when I first watched it and could understand her pain. Though I do feel like the writing suffers from not knowing how much of a real person they wanted to make her character, she rarely feels like a completed well rounded character.
I never realised this till you said it, Ian, but yes, Angel is his most human around Buffy. She's his tether to humanity. Always has been. And I think this episode proves, even if they're not romantically together, she always will be. And we know this, too, because of just how much Angelus wants to destroy Buffy. He says it himself in S2: she made me feel human. That's not something I can just forgive.
To throw out one idea - I read something once that said, "Teenagers argue with themselves/process by looking like they're arguing with you." Dawn's contradictions might work on a teenager level. As a frame where contradictions are intentional and have Dawn turning inner struggles into condemnations - meanness as her being mean to herself, Buffy's reaction becomes catharsis for herself- or she realizes what she's doing and cuts things off there.
Wildbow not just teenagers. people do this constantly. parents yell at kids stuff they are actually only blaming themselves for, they yell at kids how dum the kid is, but what they mean is they themselves are dum....
The clear Pet Sematary homage in the footsteps, silhouette and door knocking sequence (not to mention the music) made it clear, for me, that Joyce had "come back wrong".
One of the reasons I love Angel and Buffy's relationship (in the wider sense) so much is that she always feels she can be real with him. As the series progresses, more and more responsibility and burdens are placed on her shoulders and, in my opinion, her friends allow her to isolate herself. Perhaps subconsciously they see it as her job, the price she has to pay as the Slayer. Rather than just inviting/allowing her to be vulnerable.
Later in this season, when Buffy (spoilers) goes into a fugue, we have Willow telling her to snap out of it. Acknowledging she has the weight of the world on her shoulders but that she's borne it since she was 16. As if, therefore, she can not only pick it up again, but almost taking it for granted she must and will. No acknowledgement of what it costs her. And then judgment when it causes her to harden (see season 7).
But just as Angel is his most human around Buffy, so too, perhaps, is Buffy her most human around him. In the sense she feels permission to be vulnerable. To just be a person first, rather than the Slayer. Or an older sister.
You always make me think so much, Ian!
I love this and we see all the way up until season 7 *spoilers*
Buffy is still at her most vulnerable with Angel and that their relationship wasn't just a teenage puppy love and that she still wants a future with him and vice versa
@@jpreaux2268*spoilers for s7* I know that some watchers, especially but not only Spuffy fans, get really annoyed by the Buffy/Angel kiss in s7 and feel it "came out of nowhere", but that pattern has been there through all of their interactions. Buffy's true feelings good and bad come out when she's with Angel. She's turned harder in s7 because of everything she's been through and because of having to look after all of the potentials, and imo because her friends don't encourage or even allow her to be vulnerable. And, of course, it's further exacerbated by them kicking her out of her house. But when she sees Angel, she sees someone who has always let her be her and someone she has always been able to be vulnerable with, and she just beams her relief and happiness. The other consistent narrative thread is Buffy and Angel's inability to be around each other without passion coming out, whether they want it to or not. Whether it's a good thing or not. We saw that in S2, S3 and S4 (via the crossover on Angel) and we see it again in this episode in S5, so it is totally consistent for it to happen again in s7.
@@jaycievictory8461 very well said and DB has said (I'm paraphrasing) that in a battle or argument they're always connected. IMO it shows they are still drawn to each other because they're not together for external reasons not because they don't work well together and are not in love etc
In defense of the resurrected Joyce cutaways: It made me extraordinarily uncomfortable, seeing Joyce coming back "wrong". And I think that having that tangible presence in the scene made the tension of Dawn ending the spell in time work a lot better. I was rooting for her to tear the picture just so Buffy didn't have to see the... undignified... return of her recently deceased mother.
Also, it added to the mystery if, in season 6, another character had come back "wrong".
You're a crazy man, the final scene at the end of this episode is my favourite in all of Buffy.
I always liked Buffy breaking down and showing vulnerability to Dawn, something she rarely if ever did, at the end. The line “who’s going to take care of us?” especially tugs at the heart strings for me. You saw Buffy be vulnerable with Angel earlier in the episode (great scene) but she was still keeping it together. She needed to breakdown there, with Dawn. I agree that they missed an opportunity for Dawn to show the same level of heartbreak
I kinda like that Dawn didn't breakdown? It gave her a moment to be the strong one between her and Buffy, and allow Buffy to shed her slayer skin and just be a human girl who's lost her mom. Dawn is the one holding Buffy, telling her it's okay. I DO agree with the video in that it felt like a Buffy moment in a Dawn centric episode, since it was Buffy who had that turning point where she gave in to her grief, but I still like it all the same. Dawn wasn't just the baby sister who needed to be coddled. She was just a sister who was there to comfort her sibling when she needed her.
@@BrightNeonBrilliancy All of this. Plus, Dawn has been breaking down and crying since she learned that Joyce died. So she’s, in a sense, in a better position than Buffy here. Dawn has been expressing her emotions and letting herself feel the pain of her loss. By comparison, Buffy has been bottling up her emotions, and that is never wise or healthy.
Honestly, I really like the ending scene. I mean, giving us Dawn as someone willing to do the wrong thing for the right reason-- Buffy wouldn't do that, but she would want that, and having someone else already do it, it allows her to stop being responsible for the consequences and just have her mom back. It's basically showing the two sides of Buffy-- the part that's moving forward and the part that is holding on.
I am not a big fan of the Joyce visuals, but I do feel like they need to be there. We needed to know that Joyce's physical form was back, without knowing what was there. Otherwise we don't know which part comes back as "off". And just having a knock-- I feel like that's not enough, especially in this show.
Thank you Ian. I know you put a tremendous amount of work into these episodes and it's very much appreciated. I don't always agree with you 100% but I have a lot of respect for your opinions and always learn something new from your analysis. It's a real treat when a TPN Buffy Guide drops. 🙂
I got a theory...
The last shot here with the door ajar on buffy and Dawn i think gets concluded with s06ep14's last shot of Buffy shutting the door with Dawns growing smile.
Love that.
I started reading your comment and IMMEDIATELY read it with the music in my head 🤣
I often wonder how much of "I will remember you" does Angel bring with him to Sunnydale in this episode?
😢
Let's go. Always a wonderful day when my favorite tuber uploads
Dawn reminds me of what willow said to Oz in season 3 finale 2 parter. About panic being something people can share in time of crisis. Everyone was trying to be strong for dawn but she needed someone to panic with. I get it ❤
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about Dawn in this one because I always feel guilty that she gets in my nerves after what they've been through. Also, this is my favorite Bangel moment ever! It's so beautiful! I love them as mature friends who still love each other. It tells you how good it is that even though it's beautiful, you still feel like it's just long enough.
Really surprised you did not mention that Angel showing up for Buffy in this ep is the final punctuation mark to his journey of relearning what matters on his own show.
Still enjoyed the video, as always.
He could be saving that for the next Angel episode review’s cold open.
In Out of my Mind Harmony tells the doctor about how Spike's chip prevents him from picking a flower. Spike is so quick to refute this claim and say that he can indeed pick flowers; that it's obvious he's covering up a lie. The bouquet of flowers he brings for Joyce are hand picked wild flowers. He set off his chip over and over to honor her memory. It's one of my favorite subtle moments in the series, and he didn't leave a card. I love the relationship Spike has with Joyce.
I think this is one of the first of these I've TOTALLY disagreed with sorry. I love everything about this episode. Its dark murky tone. The shadow of Joyce. One of my absolute favs.
Agreed, the ending of this episode brings me to tears every time and I find the silhouette of Joyce in the window very eerie and disconcerting
I don't know how you always manage to put into words the things I've felt for over two decades but never managed to express, but I thank you for it. This series never disappoints. 💙
There's something about the Buffy/Angel moment that feels so much more adult. It's lovely, and it's like their relationship will always retain it's purity and beauty, whilst still adapting and changing as they change and adapt. I think this tiny scene can be a huge argument for the overall debate in are you team Angel or team errr... Billy? Mr Idol? Is this a spoiler?
Did Ian make a new rule about spoilers? (I haven’t watched the livestreams because I don’t like Firefly.)
Usually, on these episode breakdowns, it’s assumed that we’ve all watched the series. Yours is the second comment that makes me wonder if we have to be careful about spoilers.
@@SuziQ. welllll.... he does make sure that each guide is spoiler free, so I like to respect that. Who knows, there could be people watching these alongside their first viewing of Buffy, especially in the future. But I reckon for the most part we're all here as long time fans
@@whedonobsessed , I’ve missed the last few months of livestreams, because Firefly doesn’t interest me, but in the past, it was assumed that we had already watched the series, at least once (often dozens of times), so though the guides are spoiler free, comments didn’t have to be. Ian’s comment about singing “those 3 words” was my first hint that we might be going spoiler free, which is sad, because this is my only safe place to discuss the series.
I am surprised you didn’t bring up The Monkey Paw. You usually bring up references to what episodes are based on.
"The way the episode is written does her no favours". I'm afraid I feel that way about a lot (but not all) Dawn scenes.
I agree, too, that a moment of her alone breaking down, perhaps cuddling an item of her mum's clothes, or something, would have gone a long way to offset how she behaves in this episode
These are just so good. I check several times a week for a new one.
you must be new here. :)
It has been ages since Ian did a Buffy episode. They used to be monthly, with Angel in the middle. I can’t wait until he’s done with Firefly. For such a short series (FF), it feels like years since the last Buffy livestream. 😢
You COULD argue that this episode reflects how life works. We don’t always see other’s perspectives. What makes death/loss extra difficult for those still around is the fact that relationships are strained by NOT understanding the point of view or grieving process of our family and friends. I think Dawn’s perspective was intentionally absent to evoke that real life frustration and force the viewer to fill in the blanks as to how she might see things. This simulates how real life works: empathy or defensiveness in crisis
That Moment at 3:13 Is so important! It really shows how Willow believed that magic could solve anything and it' s another clue for her story in season six. Great detail from the writers, i think
I know there's a lot of wise guys on the internet who love to correct me, but I've always considered this episode to be a true direct sequel to "The Body".
I mean like, if The Body was in fact a 10/10 movie and there was strong public demand for a sequel, how would such a movie be made? I think Forever would be the closest to it, with the little girl from the first movie bringing her dead mother back from the dead, only to learn her lesson right at the very end.
Yeah remove the scenes that make it part of a TV season, flesh them both out a little more where they need it, and Forever would be an acceptable sequel to The Body... like 8/10... especially where the older sister starts breaking down at the end (LEGENDARY).
Geez. With a certain thing that happened later in S6, can you imagine Giles’ speech to Dawn had the spell been allowed to work and Joyce really did come back??
Or his speech to Willow. She basically gave Dawn the books. Willow really was a rank amateur with “little man syndrome”. (Can you tell that I’ve grown to dislike her?)
Ha! Your use of the S3 Willow yearbook photo as a reaction Gif to Dawn's false assertions was just 👌👌👌👌😅
All credit to Jack's editing.
I wish this episode could have touched on a fear for Dawn- that Buffy might no longer feel connected to her. With Joyce around, they were a family. But now, it's just the slayer and the thing she needs to protect. I can only imagine that Dawn must have worried that Buffy might no longer want her as a sister, or a family, and may only see her as the key. Perhaps this is why she seemed relieved when Buffy broke down and let Dawn comfort her. It shows they're still sisters, even with the mother gone.
Buffy: Dawn. What have you done?
Dawn: She's coming. She's coming home.
Buffy: Dawn. You have no idea what you're messing with! Who knows what you actually raised or what's gonna come through that door.
Dawn: No, I know. It'll be her.
Buffy: No. Tara told me that these spells go bad all the time. People come back wrong.
Dawn: She won't. He told me her DNA...
Buffy: Who told you? Who helped you?
Dawn: Nobody! Let me go!
Buffy: You have to stop it. Reverse it.
Dawn: No!
Buffy: Dawn, you know this is wrong. You know you can't let this happen. Not to Mom.
Dawn: But I need her. I don't care if she...I'm not like you, Buffy. I don't have anybody.
Buffy: What? Of course you do. You have me.
Dawn: No, I don't. You won't even look at me. It's so obvious you don't want me around.
Buffy: That's not true.
Dawn: Yes it is. Mom died and it's like you don't even care.
Buffy: Of course I care. How can you even think that?
Dawn: How can I not? You haven't even cried. You've just been running around like it's been some big chore or something. Cleaning up after Mom's mess.
*Buffy slaps Dawn*
Buffy: *Starting to cry* Oh, my God. Dawn...I've been working. I've been busy because I have to...
Dawn: No! You've been avoiding me.
Buffy: I'm not! I have to do these things cause...Cause when I stop then she's really gone. And I'm trying...Dawn I am...I am really trying to take care of things but I don't even know what I'm doing. Mom always knew.
Dawn: Nobody's asking you to be Mom.
Buffy: Who's going to be if I'm not? Huh Dawn? Have you even thought about that? Who's gonna make things better? Who's gonna take care of us? I didn't mean to push you away. I didn't. I just...I couldn't let you see me...Oh God Dawnie. I don't know what we're gonna do. I'm scared.
Dawn: Buffy...
*There's a sudden knock at the door*
Buffy: *Buffy turns around* Mommy?
Dawn: Buffy...
Buffy: Mom.
*Buffy goes to open the door as Dawn tears up the photo. Buffy opens the door but there's nobody there*
Buffy: Dawn.
*Buffy and Dawn hug, fall to the ground, and cry together*
Great job. I mostly remember this episode for the little moments rather than the plot so I've never seen why it bothered you so much, I get it now.
I hate being negative. I always feel like I'm stepping on someone's puppy.
Spike and Joyce were always an underrated pairing. She treated him well.
Remember when in the Zeppo a bunch of dudes came back from the dead and although were a little rotten, were just themselves? I wonder why this spell was different.
Oooh, good point!
There's also "Some Assembly Required" from BTVS season 2.
Spoilers for Angel
The zombie cops in season 2 and the zombie guy in season 3. In all cases the people seem to be themselves.
Why does Joyce disappear when the photo of her is torn? If she had been brought back normal if something happened to the photo would that hurt her?
Dawn’s feelings are not exactly logical, but, to use Spike’s eloquent words, she is a teenage hormone bomb. Grief is not logical. I’ve always felt like Dawn gets hurt by small nuances in the episode. Buffy not grieving with her sister? Quickly picking a coffin and wanting to move on? Giving halfhearted attention to dinner/Dawn because she’s focused on planning the funeral? Dawn feels like Buffy is being cold and distant instead of realizing that Buffy is just moving from one task to another because she is in pain and is trying to avoid thinking about it.
This continues to be an outstanding series.
Was it a conscious choice not to reference The Monkey’s Paw?
I have a huge problem with the Gora demon (apart from the fact that it looks season oney!) Doc tells Spike and Dawn that the only way to acquire one of its eggs is to steal it from its nest. But if a single vampire and a 14 year old kid can steal one (two, technically) right from under it, wouldn’t loads more people/demons/vampires have tried this? Seems like if a whole bunch of demons ganged up on it they’d be able to make off with a few. Seems like there’d be some kind of demonic black market that they could’ve gone to (and you know Spike would know about that). The concept a demonic black market also seems, to me anyway, like a pretty obvious missed opportunity for the show in general
I think the market in Sunnydale mostly trafficked in kittens.
In defense of whatever "season one-y" is (It was the same designer/ FX group season 1 through 5)... little known fact about the Gora... Production forgot to even tell us we had an eighteen foot long, three headed dragon to build, at all.
Easily a 6 month job for the 15 of us there were on hand (and certainly not any able to be dedicated to the one piece), they had shaved a cool million off of each episode of the season to pay for this episode - and forgot to mention it to the FX guys at all. They showed up 2 and a half weeks before the episode was supposed to shoot, wanting to see the dragon we had no idea was supposed to exist. The sleep dep to get that and a gargoyle suit done for Angel simultaneously..... my god......
That said... we designed, sculpted, fiberglass body frame, mechanics, dentures (x3), tail mech, and claws in just over 16 days.
The fact it looked like an Emmy winning season's work is nothing but pure manic discord falling into place. Pure luck. LOL!
@@LaserParody Wow, you actually worked on both shows? Amazing! Hats off :)
With how almost every complaint Dawn makes is very intentionally countered by everything in the episode, it feels like it has to be, well, intentional. It's not just that she's a kid. I have empathy through experience with what she did, though with less of an excuse to do it.
Sometimes, when we're going through grief, we lie. We especially lie to ourselves, but we'll lie to anyone. We feel bad and we lash out, and that lashing out is completely unjustified, so we try to justify it. We can create false memories in the moment like we're rewriting history. But for some people, give us a moment of clarity and none of those feelings go away, but instead a feeling of guilt blankets them as we realize all the lies we just told. It usually takes more time than what's shown in the episode, but, come on man. It's TV. Sometimes you have an entire life summarized in an episode.
It very well could be that Dawn, already feeling guilty, lied to herself and Buffy in that scene to try and justify her terrible behavior. I know that sometimes, especially with a depression that can numb me to emotions, I will feel bad for not feeling strong enough. I have an elderly mother with health issues and I worry about her constantly to the point where when she's worse or in pain, I have to put on a face of extra worry when really I feel mostly normal because I'm always worried, I just don't show it. And Dawn reads very similarly to me in this episode, though of course that's a projection bias. When I was younger and I had those feelings of lack of feeling, I hid it poorly, I lied to cover it both to myself and others. And I tried to throw blame where there was none, much like Dawn does. Again, with less of an excuse.
I can't justify the show's writing of Dawn and of course, as you say, if the show is meant to be from Dawn's perspective perhaps even if what I went through was their intention, it wasn't communicated as well as it could be. But I can relate to Dawn here. It doesn't make me feel good. It makes me feel guilty. I really hurt people when I was like that. But kind of like Dawn's ending where she tried to do the right thing too late, there was no emotional catharsis when I came back to reality. It was slow, filled with shame, and with no resolution. It was simply a step I had to get past before I could move on to something else. Sometimes catharsis would come after, sometimes those emotions just sort of... Died under the weight of that denial, never to reach true acceptance other than the hindsight to later say, "Oh. Right."
My explanation for Dawn is simple, when siblings are hurting we say things that are very personal. I think Dawn kind of knew her speech would get a rise out of Buffy but the only way kids know how to deal with pain is through these kind of things; Making a big deal out of something that's irrelevant like the choice of coffin; storing up a few slights/incidents in your head and then the 'you don't care about me' gets blurted out.
As we get older we learn how to understand and vocalise our feelings. The trouble is Dawn isn't at a stage where she can talk through her grief like Buffy could with Angel. I'd also say this way of processing of your hurt, where you deflect your problem to be about somebody else, is common when guilt is involved and I wonder if deep down Dawn is feeling guilty about Joyce's death. Perhaps it's related to her feeling like all she does is cause pain as people around her protect her. I'm not sure it's realistic to say she would figure out even herself that quickly why she was projecting her hurt onto Buffy beyond it being just grief.
However I find the contrast between the two sisters grieving at different ages concluding with them grappling with the fact that their sibling relationship needs to mature fascinating.
I'm sure they could have gone into their grieving a lot more but I guess we need to remember that having the show focus so much on a natural death was a risk and as much as 'The Body' is beloved by fans now, I sure there were powerful people pushing to get back to the slayer stuff.
Whelp... I'm going to be up late tonight thinking about those questions you asked at the end. Thanks for that lol. I really love the scene where Spike tries to deliver flowers. Spike and Joyce being friends was one of my favourite little side plots. For me, it really shows that the line between soulless evil vampire and ensouled good vampire is more blurred than they think. I mean, would a soulless monster really genuinely give flowers to his "enemy" because their mom died? I doubt it.
Thanks for another excellent analysis, Ian.
I agree that the show is inconsistent in its approach to soulled and soulless creatures. But Spike is obsessed with Buffy sexually and romantically at this point. Very very far from seeing her as an enemy. I do think he liked Joyce as much as he could without a soul, but I also think whether soulless or not he's always been love's bitch. He gets consumed by love, whether it's Drusilla or Buffy. And unlike Angel and Buffy who come out of that phase, he never leaves it. And his love as a vampire can never truly be selfless. We see some sobering instances of that.
There was a Buffy comic called Tales of the Vampires. It was basically an anthology of short stories about different vampires in the Buffyverse.
One of the Jane Espenson stories was called 'Father' and it followed the life of a man turned into a vampire in 1922. Before he died, the vampire had a son. And when he rose, he went home, stood over his his son's bed... and then raised him as a single father. He'd take his son to the fair and pier for corn dogs and wait until his son was sleeping before going out to feed.
When his son got married and had a kid of his own, the vampire was a doting grandad. But the mother-in-law didn't trust him on a gut feeling. So he killed the mother-in-law. The son didn't speak to his father for the next 50 years.
As he nears his 80s, the son finally reaches out to his father and resumes contact. And from then on, until he is on his deathbed, the father looks after his son. And maybe an hour before he passes, a slayer comes crashing through the door and stakes the father.
The soul canon and its place in a vampire's ability to love in the Buffyverse is mercurial. We see a multitude of different kinds of love. We see vampires that form nests for protection, but will abandon each other the moment their existence is at risk (Mr. Trick) all the way up to all consuming couples that ends with suicide if one loses the other (James & Elisabeth).
Maybe Ian is right about the echo of the person is left behind in the body and that is what is imprinted on the demon that takes over. But if that is correct, then the Father in the story loved his son so much, that the demon never could have conceived of hurting him. In which case, a vampire can love unselfishly.
So you're telling me they pulled a *Full Metal Alchemist?!*
I wonder if Dawn's comment around Buffy avoiding her was actually just projection. As she asked to stay with Willow/Tara and the times we see Buffy looking at her, she isn't looking at Buffy.
I think it was a bit of both. Buffy was distant, but not avoiding. But Dawn may have projected her feelings of being alone in her grief- and perhaps fears of Buffy no longer wanting her around now that they don't have a mother tying them together as a family. Buffy's distance and Dawn's grief and insecurities are probably why Dawn was so angry toward Buffy.
Yes! What a great surprise! And so soon after your most recent Angel video! I hope that you have a great weekend!
What happened to the Buffy guides after this episode? I am so impressed by the clarity, maturity and compassion of the psychological analyses! More please!
Every time I get a notification for one of these, I get SO happy! Thank you Ian so much! I know these are a ton of work but I really hope you know that you have completely transformed a series so dear to me into so, so much more! Thank you! Seriously you are my favorite video essay channels and you are so appreciated!
Always enjoy these breakdown vids 👍🏻
I'm a bit in disagreement regarding the end. Dawn ripping up the picture is the first moment in the entire episode where she considers someone other than herself when it comes to the impact of Joyce's death.
Buffy's breakdown feels a bit unearned, but I do think her cracking under the pressure of everything is compelling.
All that aside, it's very nice to be able to catch another one of your videos. The day to night shot and the shot from the two girls and their rooms with family photos are moments of cinema that I missed. I love having more to love about a thing that I love.
This episode could've really benefited from having a perspective on Dawn and her plight would held a lot more weight to it. I feel like doing this episode like two episodes later would given it certain breathing room and allowed for certain things to come across differently. Not the whole episode, just certain parts of it. Also, I know which character in Angel that you were referring to and we'll get there, eventually.
Whereabouts in the video was Ian referring to an ATS character? I missed that :)
@@jaycievictory8461 at 7:59 minutes and its the young male character starting with C
@@jpreaux2268 Thank you so much! Ah, yes, makes perfect sense now! Unfortunately.
I really wish we had seen more of dawn's perspective. However I think the end of the episode is very well done. I think we're supposed to be terrified of whatever is coming to the house, I think dawn ripping the photo is a tremendous moment of character growth, even if how she came upon it doesn't make sense. grief is such a warping force to your brain in a way I desperately wish I didn't understand.
HOLY F*CK the ford compassion comparison floored me. so accurate
Sometimes, we wail for a cure to our anguish. But we're 14 years old and we don't even know what to *ask* for, and nobody else is predicting our needs. Which is what our mother's job always was. But she's not here anymore. So we rage against our new environment which can't (or won't?) give us the inexplicable thing that we're missing. Because at least it feels like a structure. And a creaking shack of anger is better than nothing.
I was watching these in parallel as I watched the show for the first time and I was sad when I passed the point your videos covered. Now I’ll be looking forward to them as they release. Thanks for the interesting commentary and discussions
Can’t wait for your next Buffy video 😍
Your comments and criticisms of this episode in particular are fascinating, and I think have helped me organize and work out my own reactions and opinions on episodes of this and other series - when something just feels off, or wrong, and I can't quite figure out why.
I feel strangely unimpressed and almost angry about the Angel episode "Fredless," and haven't yet found another's analysis or reaction that mirrors mine, so I'm left trying to work it out alone. It's so beloved by so many - why didn't it work for me? Not sure yet. Your points and arguments here feel close to it, and I'm eager for your eventual video for that episode.
Brilliant stuff from you, as always.
Thank you for another great video!
I think i get Dawn more with every rewatch. She was written as a bratty teenager and she totally is, but i get it. j.get her desperate need to have her mom back. And the feet show the joyce thing dragging iit's feet, obviously not quite her, i think showing the worry the girls aare feeling. Dawn destroyed the picture because it was obvious Buffy woyld have a hard tine killing a joyce monster. I get it, and i don't think i could had the strength to do it myself.
Dawn’s complaints are not just about this episode she is talking about things she has been feeling all season.
Times that throughout the rest of the show, that's all she does.....
@@ninjanibba4259 She's a teenager who's father has abandoned her, her mother has died, and her caregiver has world-saving responsibilities. It makes sense that she would feel neglected and seek attention. I felt lonely as a teenager and I had parents.
@@Scarygothgirl the girl is the same way throughout her runtime, I don't care if she lost her pet goldfish, her character is annoying asf and I don't care about her
The show got ruined adding her with dumb retcon
@@ninjanibba4259uhm? There was no retcon -dumb or otherwise. 🤨
*spoilers for S6*
Leash is a good description for the chip in my opinion. The chip helps encourage habitual behaviour but that's not the same as true change. True change has to be freely given. And once that leash is no longer in place, Spike immediately tries to bite/hurt others. The writing is inconsistent at times about souls, but it's consistent enough that, to me, it's clear soulless vampires can't be truly "good".
yes true change has to be freely given and also i don't fully trust Spike's intentions as being altruistic regarding the flowers when Buffy has recently told him to stay away from her and leave Sunnydale after he chained her up and almost got her killed. He could have left the flowers at Joyce's grave and we see that he went there later but he didn't.
@@jpreaux2268 That's a very good point.
For me, Spike did like Joyce, but his soulless nature would mean that, like his love, his liking could never be wholly altruistic or selfless. He liked her cos of what she gave him: a listening ear, hot cocoa and marshmallows etc. He liked her because she represented the mother figure he lost. His liking Joyce was still about him.
Really look forward to your videos, thank you!
This timing is spectacular! I'm reading Spike's poem at a Carnegie Arts Center tonight for a poetry slam, lol. Anyone know if it has an official title? I may upload it to YT; should be very "arty".😁
I'm on another rewatch, so I just saw this one about 2 weeks ago and *in the context of the series* I agree with others who said that Dawn had been ignored. Maybe it's bc I HAVE been a teen girl once. Maybe it was Michelle's acting. All I can say is that, yes, Buffy was numb but she came across as cold from *Dawn's perspective* imo. I also liked the silhouette. I liked that they spoon-fed that piece of information to us bc sometimes, I can be a little dense.😂 Not a favorite episode by any means, certainly frustrating, but I could finally relate to Dawn. It was brilliant to leave Spike out of The Body and bring him back here. These guides are always so thorough and thought-provoking.✌
Very interesting video for sure with a lot of good points made. I somewhat feel as though maybe there should have been an in-between episode, showing Dawn's alleged feelings of isolation and hurt. It always felt to me like they wanted a big climax to the emotions felt both here and in The Body, but did so by undermining their own potential with the characters.
I also felt that Dawn's teenage angst was often used to make her more of a catalyst/object for events than an actual person, as with certain writers, you can have things happen with certain people under the guise of "They're a kid, of course they'd do something stupid" as a means of shortcutting organic development.
When Dawn has legitimate moments of character, such as the self-harm scene after discovering she is the key, it feels very impactful as we understand how traumatic such a revelation would be. But here, it felt sadly artificial. Excellent video as always Ian, I hope you're doing alright
I understand what you're saying about the ickiness of seeing Joyce's feet and shadow in the end, it does feel tasteless, but for some reason that sequence is one of the most memorable of the show for me. I find it genuinely frightening. SMG's performance always makes me cry, and because I'm crying I think my fear of whatever is outside is so much more intense.
The decision to have the resurrected loved one behind a door but never seen is a reference to the short story "The Monkeys Paw," in which a magical wosh-granted Monkeys Paw always leads to negative outcomes. Clearly an influence on Joss and this episode.
Awesome video.
Dawn is Buffy's mirror. She simply tells us how Buffy really feels. Buffy feels withdrawn and disconnected from everyone and had shut down to cope with her grief, and Dawn feels this keenly as her sister. The only difference is that Dawn can actually say the thoughts that Buffy will not.
I love these guides and stop everything when i see the notification. Thanks so much for all you do
And Finally Ian , this is a wonderful review , I know I have a pension of saying that , But everytime that I think it can't get better , you amaze me , Honestly I am so glad you are doing these reviews and giving them the care they deserve to that all I can say is Thank you
Dawn is right though she should get a chance to be heard. It is wrong to leave out of her mom’s funeral.
I really liked the scene at the end with Buffy and Dawn. Even though I don’t always like how the show treats dawns character (especially in season 6). It felt very real to me, and like dawn hadn’t really understood that Buffy was human too since her responsibilities as a slayer so often take her away from dawn.
Re: Spike. He is an anomaly. Moments after his first chip experience, he reassures Willow because he doesn't want her to feel bad. This allows her to get the drop on him.
Re : The ick factor. This was a big Monkeys Paw homage. The point is the nightmare of it. Dawn tried to take what wasn't hers.
Thank you for another wonderful episode. As you often do, you had me in tears.
I think Buffy was still being strong with Angel. Her true moment of vulnerability was with Dawn. That's why Buffy had to be saved in that moment. She fell apart and all that was left was the little girl who wants her mom back. That's why she says "mommy". Dawn, in a rare role reversal, saves Buffy. She's the strong one for Buffy cause she finally understands what Buffy is going through.
Bro, have you never see a teenager in an argument? They straight up lie to get an emotional response from people because they don't know how to articulate their desire to connect.
Also, this episode ruined me as a child because I found the bit with Joyce horrifying in a very Lovecratian sense.
Now it ruins me emotionally. I still feel like Dawn in this episode, and my mom died in 2020.
They say that avg teen brain is so flooded by hormones, that their personality is similar to psychopath.
I remember *being* a teenager in an argument. I had a combative relationship with my father and would often take it out on other people. ... That's a common way to deal with frustration if you're a teenager, but that doesn't mean such behaviour would be pleasant to be around or compelling to watch in and of itself. And it gets harder to sympathise with if you're watching a show where you're far more connected to the people the teenager is yelling at than the teenager doing the yelling.
We see so much of Buffy's grief that we know exactly how she feels, and how off Dawn's perspective on the situation is, but we're never brought into Dawn's view of the situation in the way we're brought into Buffy's.
@@Talisguy That's subjective. I find it compelling enough, but I don't really see Dawn as a full character until season 6. She's just kind of a mechanism for Buffy to feel things in this season, at least for me.
Buffy, Dawn, and Xander were also all teenagers when the show started. None of them are shortchanged in an episode like this one during those early seasons. Also, I just don't find the fact that something exists in the actual world a strong argument for it being satisfying storytelling.
@@MANJYOMETHUNDER111 Let me put it this way: I think it was incredibly risky to have a younger character who was inserted into the show at the start of *this season* lash out at people we've known for years and expect us to sympathise with the kid. Traditionally, kid characters added to previously existing team dynamics tend not to be popular with fans, and we're likely to have much more attachment to the people we've spent more time with than we do to her. This episode had an uphill battle and it made things even harder for itself by not making us feel Dawn's perspective at the start of the episode. Maybe if *Buffy* had suggested Dawn going over to Willow and Tara's in a misguided attempt to try and shield Dawn from the stuff surrounding the funeral, and *Dawn* had been hurt, but agreed to it, that could have helped.
I was in the middle of watching Buffy at 15 the same year my dad died. I remember how cathartic The Body felt, and this episode felt like a straight up horror at times. I used to have nightmares about my father coming back from the dead "changed" or "different".
Despite the obvious flaws of this episode, I think the final few scenes really lend themselves to psychological horror elements - the implications of being able to bring a lost loved one back if they weren't quite themselves. I feel like the Black Mirror episode "Be Right Back" delves into that a bit too.
Without fail, the final moments of Forever always send a shiver down my spine. That moment when "Joyce" knocks on the door and Buffy turns and says: "Mommy" are incredibly frightening to me. No matter how many times I rewatch the show and see different episodes over and over again, that moment remains the most hair-raising. Right up to the door swinging open to reveal an empty porch step. For all of the criticisms given to this episode, that moment remains one of the most viscerally affecting from the show for me.
I can't wait for "Intervention", that episode would be a great episode to analyze.
The Monkey's Paw episode. I do like this one. Other commenters explained Dawn's perspective wonderfully already. So I won't rehash. I'm torn on the images of the feet and the silhouette. On the one hand, it's obvious that whatever is coming - a resurrected Joyce, or some monster in Joyce's body or form, or something else - was wrong in some way, and it made you dread what would be on the other side of the door. On the other hand, it might have been even more spooky with just the knock, especially since from Buffy and Dawn's perspective, that's all they're aware of. Certainly, it would have been more ambiguous, and therefore more in keeping to The Monkey's Paw.
But dawn didn't get to see all of the breakdowns that buffy had or the rest of them. From her point of view buffy looks distant and is not answering her questions and is kinda dismissive. Willow says maybe you and buffy would do something after the service and buffy wasn't listening to her then she didn't put any fight to her going with willow and Tara. Then willow and Tara refuse to help her (from her point of view) watch the body and forever again but skip everything that doesn't have dawn in it and pay attention to buffys face and dawns face. ❤
Just one more thought to illustrate what I was saying, it's like in the season 6 episode when Hallie talks about how much paint on is in and no one can hear it. This is actually demonstrating that where we are the people who hear what she is saying but don't really hear it at all because it seems unreasonable to us. It is the perspective from the outside is and there is power to that I think.
I don't think I'm ever gonna get past Willow helping Dawn access that spell. Even with her established terribly unhealthy pattern of shortcutting and/or blotting out pain with magic, it just feels so much more stupid than the intelligent character we knew from the first three seasons. Would Willow really be that stupid?
See S6. “Arrogant, rank amateur” pretty much nailed it. Willow’s downward spiral started long before this episode, and she gets worse every season.
Marti Noxon is credited with this episode and I see her as a structural writer. Tables are consistently turned as witnessed in 'I Only Have Eyes for You' and 'A New Moon Rising', and I think this is another example. That Dawn is a self-centered unempathetic pain is a fine lead-up to the table-flip in the final act where she assumes the mature caregiver role. In sabotaging the spell, she sacrifices her ultimate wish in order to save a now-infantile Buffy. So I'm not sure a 'Dawn perspective' would have served the purpose of this script. My only complaint is a lack of follow-through in the final scene where I would have preferred that Dawn keep cradling Buffy in a motherly manner through the tears. This would have established a new-found maturity for Dawn which would carry over into future episodes even so far as 'Older and Far Away' where she is again angsty but more a victim of circumstance.
Even back when I hated Dawn this was the one episode that her behavior didn't irritate me because she clearly deserved a pass. The perspective of the audience is not the same as her perspective as she doesn't see the same things we do. It's already been established on the show how Dawn views Buffy as always keeping her at a distance instead of being emotionally open to her.
You can just see from her expressions what Dawn is going through and there's no need for more than that because Michelle Trachtenberg is such a gifted actress. For whatever reason it always worked for me. The footprints and silhouette were meant to build the feeling of dread for us that Dawn was feeling about doing the spell and were very effective at that. There's always such a feeling of relief when the door is opened and nobody is there along with the sadness.
In retrospect maybe it would have been cool to have a zombie Joyce on the show and I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing more of the actress, maybe doing a Santa Clara Diet type character long before Drew Barrymore did it.
Thank you...
The feet walking and the silhouette in the window feeling "creepy": I think that is absolutely right, though. It is supposed to feel wrong, because, resurrecting the dead is "wrong".
Ian- this comes in a fair pace faster. Does this mean we will complete Season Five before the end of 2023?
I've been promoting your channel over on the Buffy fan page I'm part of
Hope it yields more subscribers
Got a lot from your thoughtful analysis. Hope you’re feeling better.