I'm only 2:30 in but I remember this exact puzzle described by Zee Bashew in a video he did a few years ago and I don't remember any backlash then. Now I'm gonna have to go check...
I once used a similar puzzle in a Dwarven temple. It was a stone door with a very complicated series of spinning dials that: "Only a true dwarf can solve this.". The answer was to break the door, since "Stone is no obstacle for a dwarf!".
I would make it a laboratory: after it is activated the pressure plate becomes active and the door closes, as a security feature. If the time is up, as soon as no monster is present it deactivates and opens the door. The players can figure this out by reading the diary/manual. If you want to make it more difficult let the book have a magic lock, but someone left a note somewhere how to open it, because they always forget. A puzzle should be logical, and part of the world. No one has random traps and riddles at home.
I did a similar puzzle years ago at a Larp I used to help run. We had a building with a cement floor that we drew chalk "clues" all over. I was sitting in a mask, a red-gloved hand held up (the button), doing a countdown from 30. It took 30 players 30 minutes to finally let the countdown finish (plenty of time to reset the next place they were going).
In the end, every table is different and has their own expectations, and if people don't like something, they should communicate it like adults and come to an agreement, whether that be a compromise or change of plans. Too many times in the TTRPG community do I see GMs and Players alike be petty and passive aggressive and it only ever makes things worse.
absolutely! I would hope every table of players has a good enough relationship with eachother to be able to say when something bothers them, without it becoming a big issue
Had a DM try something like this on me once. I disintegrated the door and kept walking. That being said, while I do not like this kind of 'puzzle' (I dislike having the game ground to a stop for what amounts to 'hurry up and wait'), it can have it's place depending on the story and party.
That's completely fair. I have to say in regards to your comment, that's the perfect attitude for encountering stuff you're not a fan of, in a session. Thanks for the rational thoughts, and for watching :)
i think you make a good point regarding the players' trust in the DM. i've never really thought of that trust being variable between tables, but i agree that something as fun and silly as this shouldn't have any significant impact on the DM-player relationship unless that trust was strained to begin with.
I feel like everyone talking negative doesnt realize that DMs usually read the room, how much do your players like puzzles, are they easily stressed by these things or do they just like combat. I assume most DMs use puzzles that players would like or get a kick out of and not just try and bore the players, or else they wouldnt keep playing.
Exactly! Most DMs would have a pretty good idea whether their players would like this puzzle or not, before using it. Like I knew my players would more than likely enjoy the twist. If I knew they don't like stuff like this, I obviously wouldn't use it haha 😂 Well said and thanks for watching!
I'd make it the exit to a dungeon. They get thrown in from above directly into that room. Inevitably, what would happen is they'd split the party. One party to explore one party to man the button. Which could be done with one person, but what if they get attacked. Actually, they probably will be, so the button group doesn't get bored.
I've run a version of that puzzle in different ways for five different tables. Each time having it unique and each time people had fun and enjoyed, laughed, joked, really got into the moment of trying to solve it and the danger their characters were in. Out of those five times I've only had one person who didn't like it, which is fair but they also were the one player that was constantly trying to be disruptive with their phone. As for the controversy. The online community tents to go to extremes easily since what ever they say they never have to actually interact with the person they are saying it to beyond that singular comment.
This puzzle reminds me of that one episode of ninjago where they had to go through a dungeon of three or so puzzles, and the way they knew what to do was a riddle. I don't remember what the entire thing is, but the first two lines were "what a spinjitsu master can, what a spinjitsu master cannot" and the second puzzle's answer was "giving up" which is something the ninjas, as spinjitsu masters, could not do. I think a lot more people would like this puzzle if there was some aspect of it that gave you a clue towards why that was the answer in the first place. At the very least, the DM has an excuse and it doesn't feel like the dm completely left you hanging.
i uae these kind of rooms with villians or other npcs that have lairs with loads of tricks and traps. so its to be expected also punishing players for being bastards is perfectly acceptable
I don't know why you showed up in my recommendeds, but praise be the algorithm! Just finished watching a bunch of your videos, and you do an excellent job of explaining concepts and showing multiple viewpoints. I also love how you provide very clear examples for different ideas. Keep up the good work, I'm looking forward to more content!
People who think this puzzle takes away player agency actually don't know what they're talking about. Everyone else who got angry over this needs to learn that every table is different and they only need to worry about the content at their own table.
absolutely, I do think there is a lot of misunderstanding about this puzzle. It's not the players having no options. They do have options, the question is just how willing they are to take the risk 🤷
@@RoguesRollCall-Cam I don't know if it's just a lot of people used to playing with bad DMs but the hate for this puzzle and similar things seems to largely be based on the players assuming the worst, either in terms of potential consequences for letting the timer run out or the implementation of the puzzle into the larger game. If I didn't know the puzzle I wouldn't expect anything worse than a fun additional challenge from letting the timer run out after searching the room and finding nothing. Unless I was specifically playing in a high stakes campaign I wouldn't expect a death trap and it'd have to be one that expected player character deaths to have a death trap with a little info as this puzzle gives without letting the timer run out. If the puzzle shows up in a way that doesn't fit the game I'm playing, that's not the puzzle's fault, it's the DM's.
As a player and DM this puzzle sounds too easy. All the comments saying that it "Betrays trust between the DM and Players" are simply wrong. I trust my DM implicitly. I trust them not to put my character in a position in which they'd die for a stupid non-climactic reason ever. The anatomy of the puzzle is that there isn't really an obvious threat. A threat would be something that would have an effect of death. In this case, there are just torches. So let's break it down. The torches running out is a cause. A correct assumption would lead the party to believe that the torches running out would cause something, however everyone at a table in which the trust is implicit, means that the torches wouldn't cause death, they'd instead cause another cause that could lead to death. And if there is another cause, that means that there will be another solution to stop that cause. So walking into a room, with these torches and some holes? There is no immediately threat of death, only an element of cause. A smart party would let the torches run out straight away and prepare themselves to solve the second cause that actually has the effect of death. If there wasn't a second solution to solve the second cause, that's when the players and DM realize "Actually this was a bad puzzle because you're all going to die even though you did everything right." However this isn't all in defense of the puzzle. It is fundamentally bad. A well-seasoned and prepared party would let the torches run out and then the door would immediately open... which means the puzzle was indeed a waste of time. It would have taken 30 seconds of real life time for it to be over, so why even have it there in the first place if the puzzle itself was so insignificant and not challenging at all? I'd counter argue two points at myself, the first being that the challenge itself was trivial to experienced D&D players who are good at solving dungeons, and solving a puzzle that is so trivial so quickly could make the players feel really good that they've played the game so much that they can easily solve these puzzles. In addition, this easy puzzle would be an excellent setup, letting the players guard down before facing a much harder puzzle. The second counter argument I'd make is that non-experienced players can learn from this. The panic of not knowing sets in, and at the end of it all, when the torches run out and the problem is solved, then the new players would have learned this puzzle, and would have taken another step toward becoming veteran adventurers. Another point against the trap would be "Why would any powerful and ancient entity that created this dungeon make this trap?" Traps are designed to kill trespassers, or at least disadvantage them in some way. Well my final response to this is linked to all the reasons listed above: The mage who made this simple yet confusing trap filters out the weaker adventurers from the stronger and smarter, letting those worthy of challenging the mage further into the dungeon. To fulfill this goal, I'd actually add a poison gas or some other thing to come out of the holes in the walls if the players dont let the torches out in a longer amount of time. (Like if they press the plate five times) Trap just needs a single edit to make it worth-while, definitely not a good trap but a very good building block for something good.
You make some really fantastic points. Not just level-headed, but also the perfect balance of understanding on either side of the fence. The story reason for the puzzle being there is something I wish I'd touched on more in the video, but you summed it up pretty well anyway. Thanks so much for watching and for all the great food for thought
I like it. If anything it would make me more paranoid. Who said that it was the only door that opened? There might be other doors big and small linked to the same mechanism. It also can make lore/combat mechanics sense: door can even be reused: if there is a chase, the door would delay chasers if you lock the door,.
I've got a puzzle/trap that this reminds me of. It is technically a punishment puzzle for if my players keep trying to metagame their way around stuff by doing things like looking up stat blocks and would probably be just as well received as the door puzzle. I present...the Tarp Trap. You all enter a room that is roughly 40 feet wide and 100 ft long. In the center of the room a large expanse of cloth is spread across the floor forming a complete 30ft wide band from one wall to the other. Large mysterious glyphs in what appear to be (insert language of choice no PC has here) emblazon the center of the cloth. Now here's the kicker...that is the entire trap. If they do something like cast comprehend languages the text in the middle of the tarp says "trap" in whatever language it was. If they cast detect magic they get back nothing magical. If they try to examine the tarp or check for traps I ask if they are touching it at all and have them roll their investigation and tell them, "you can't seem to find anything amiss with the cloth, nothing seems to be dangerous about it." It is important for the tarp to be just barely at the edge of width where most PCs won't be able to clear it with a running long jump. But if they do you let them jump over it and just tell them that nothing happens if they clear it. The entire point of the trap is purely psychological and based on your individual players. My son stole this and used it against his friends a couple of months back and they had amazing fun joking and ribbing at each other after they realized what they had done. Only took them about 15-20 min to get past it.
My only beef with this puzzle is that it's so famous that there's too much meta knowledge surrounding it, so it doesn't have the intended effect among those who've been playing, or at least listening to stuff about, TTRPGs for a while. It kind of becomes a Princess Bride poisoned chalice scene and essentially a 50/50 shot of getting right with no real clues. Maybe there's ways to tweak it to make it work without this issue (a clue hidden in the room in riddle form or something), but as-is, it's just a source of temporary anxiety and frustration. But yeah, if you like it and it worked with your players, awesome. Glad they weren't spoiled beforehand, and it created a tense scene followed by perhaps a laugh of relief and a jocular arm-punch. :)
Absolutely agree with you there! Luckily my players are still relatively new and haven't done many of the pre-made modules, so I get to use some of the classics haha. Thanks for watching!
I believe this puzzle is completely fine to use -- so long as it has little-to-no stakes in or towards the main campaign's plot. Callbacks are a thing. If a GM were to run this puzzle, then MUCH later choose to introduce a similar room but with real traps and the potential for a key NPC, item, or party member to be lost -- then you deserve to lose player trust.
I don't think I have ever heard of this puzzle before. As a GM that loves to create puzzles, this puzzle doesn't sound like as good of a time, as something I would create myself. I do'nt think that makes it bad a puzzle. And I wouldn't say I would NEVER run it. Just not something I would be interested in running right now. However, I can see it's merits. It's interactive. The characters are making actions. This is a mandatory feature in any puzzle I run. If is uncomplicated. A puzzle with fewer moving parts is significatnly easier for your players to grasp, and solve. This puzzle has 4 elements to it (doors, torches, pressure pad, & ominous holes). The bigest flaw is it is solution narrow. Since the whole point of the puzzle it to trust and do nothing, there is only ONE solution. No matter how creative players get, it MUST be this one solution or else you lose the point of doing the puzzle in the first place. And this can lead to an abundance of time in this room where the players retreading the same unworkable ideas. I kow there are ways to nudge a PC with skillful GMing, but in this puzzle, those opportunities are not obvious. A GM who is intermediatly skilled at running interactive D&D puzzles (specifically that skill) could likely do a good job. But, you could end up floundering. TLDR: I enjoyed this vid. I think it's a okay puzzle in the right hands, but ha a high potential for suckery.
While yes not everybody enjoys puzzles, I feel like someone saying that it's a waste of time and nobody likes them is just the kind of person that can't constructively think for themselves and gotta have everything handed to them on a platter, otherwise it's too much effort lol
I personally find this puzzle hilarious and your additional information on how to treat this puzzle is useful, i'd really like to inclue it in my campaign. But... I think you should take it more easy. It is pointless to try to defend yourself against internet shitstorm created in TikTok comments by people that have attention lifespan under 10 seconds. They will most probably never watch this video, meanwhile you got frustrated as if you really messed up, feeling guilty to the point where you have to excuse yourself by making a video 12 times longer than the original. TL;DR - You are good, internet are stupid, they don't deserve you making full-length video excuses to a TikTok, they won't watch it anyway
Yeah you're definitely right, and thanks for saying that, I do appreciate it, truly. Normally getting criticized, even with some personal insults, washes right over me but I think I was just a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of comments on that video. That was pretty new to me. But again, you're right. Thanks again!
I had a dm that at the end of seasion said 'you enter a room with an hourglass in the center on this rock table, and thats where we will end the season' And in post dnd conversation I brought up 'Yo! That reminds me of *this puzzle" Come to find out thats exactly what the dm was doing and he had to change xD
hahaha I've had that a few times! Now I always try to change puzzles at least a bit, so even if the players have heard of it, they still get some kind of surprise 😂
Imagine getting outraged over this puzzle. THIS one. Of all the potential puzzles with which to find issue. Not death-traps with insta-kills, not dead-end rooms in a labyrinth that *literally* just waste time, but *this* simple, harmless "gotcha" puzzle is the one you choose to rant about. Imagine being that pathetic.
All of those commenters sound like the kind of players I had the misfortune of sitting next to at public games only to think "No wonder these folks are at public games... there's no way they're getting invited to someone's home."
Yeah for sure. The ones saying they don't like the puzzle and explaining why were fine, but the ones throwing a tantrum about it just made me sad for their DMs/Players
I like the idea of this trap being part of a prankster's gauntlet, with some sort of scrying device that the party later discovers is for the owner to watch their bumbling for its entertainment.
I did notice quite a few comments that seemed to hate the idea of puzzles in general. They were going on and on about things "slowing down" but it's like... that's the point of most puzzles? It's not combat, you're MEANT to stop and think and use problem solving skills. Anyway, I'm ranting again haha. Thanks for watching Miles :)
This is exactly why introducing people to games is bad, which is not gatekeeping, make them get to it by themselves, if they really get into it, well you got yourself a new fan,otherwise you get this...
I don't think it a good puzzle to randomly though into an adventure, but I think it could work if it fit in the adventure you are playing. I think there should be a reason for it to be there - who put it there and why?
I think you're forgetting one of the most if not the most important aspects of RPG and DnD, and considering it would automatically solve almost everything here: The narrative! I don't like "puzzle for the sake for puzzle"s. In my opinion, shouldn't only regard such things as "designing a puzzle for the players" which is out-of-game, but also "constructing something for adventurers" which is in-game. So you have to think about - Is it supposed to be a trick, trap, or trial? - Who made this mechanism? - For what purpose? - What was their capabilities? - Was there any obviously better alternatives within their options? So let's check this puzzle and speculate few situations where it can make sense and few that it doesn't. - The creator of the dungeon is a mischievous person who enjoys playing tricks on others: Makes sense. - The creator is a Lich who wishes to keep outsiders away or harm them: Not so much. Because they'd eventually pass it, and it isn't likely adventurers would spend too much of their resources on it. - The creator is doing a ritual at the end of dungeon, and wishes to buy time to complete it: Maaaybe? It begs the question why open the door at all after a certain time? Why not put the switch on the other side and let a minion keep resetting the timer as long as the master doesn't order him otherwise? Maybe he doesn't have minions? Maybe he's afraid the minion could be charmed or something? It's a trickier scenario to make narrative sense out of, but possible. - The creator wants to test the mettle of adventurers, and to figure out worthy from unworthy: Yes, just add a secondary criteria for the creator such as total time spent, so that not literally everyone in the continent would pass it eventually after a while. - And so on. If there is narrative backbone behind such puzzles, it helps players too, both in solving it and accepting it. If they know what kind of dungeon this is, either by knowing something about the creator or even just the general vibes and feel of the dungeon, they can have a general idea about the nature of challenges, risks, stakes, and solutions they'll be facing. For example if they know the creator/current master of this dungeon is a good but mischievous Fey, they'd be far more likely to think of and risk letting the count down run out, compared to when it's a Lich and they'd fear that "it should be a mechanism to differentiate ally from intruder and they'd be recognized as intruder and die by poison if they don't say a password or something" which they'd be kind of right about it. Even they don't know anything about the creator, they get an impression by monsters and other characteristics. Also these puzzles can be a tool to convey information about the setting, lore and characters, and set the stage for later. For example in the "mischievous Fey" case, you can describe "as the last torch goes out, you hear a playful mocking whisper of a laugh echo inside the room, hehehehehehe. Yet it's impossible to figure out from where or which direction it's coming from, as if everywhere and nowhere. But somehow you know for certain whoever it is, they're not actually here". TLDR, you have to make your puzzles such that it makes sense for them to exists in their location.
Absolutely! Very very well said. I couldn't really say it in the first, short video, but giving the puzzle a narrative purpose is a great point I should have mentioned in this video. Thanks for all the great thoughts
Ahah sounds like my brand of evil :') I don't get the betrayal of trust thing either... It's unreasonable to trust the dm not to do things you won't like. I understand how somebody might not like this kind of puzzle (personally I think it would be hilarious the first time I encountered it, but I would have less and less fun the more it came up) however I can't see why it would be reason enough to get mad. My general rule is that anything can happen in a campaign (unless some sort of limits have been discussed beforehand and agreed-upon rules have been established). Obviously rules can be updated as the campaign progresses but for every proposal of change I think the party should either take a vote (the dm should have a vote too in this case) or there would need to be valid reasons for the dislike of one to take precedence over the wishes of the other people. If I was the dm and a single player came to me huffing and puffing telling me this puzzle was a waste of time, they feel betrayed and can I not do it ever again, I would remind them that they're not the only one playing and that they have the choice to leave at any moment (and come back as the dm of the next campaign, if they wish). Maybe I would even take a page out of your book and tell them I love them as they slammed the door behind them
Sorry to hear that this "puzzle" ignited a lot of flammes ont your channel (and glad to hear that as well as the algorythm will recommend your videos to more people because of it). I personally, as a DM and a player, do not like this puzzle at all. If the argument is the risk taken, there SHOULD be a way to anticipate that the room wont blow up or an alternative. E.G: The player know of a creature which is living there which seems to be extremely lazy and take its time... Or in a temple all about patience and meditation. Or an alternative where the player can just skip the room by spending time reading inscriptions to waste the character time and not the player time if they absolutly hate it during the game. My players... And as a player... We tend to try our best to find the meaning of the puzzle, sometimes spending hours for a solution, having this "puzzle" recommended without alternative sounds like a session wasted to my group and I think a lot of other people got upset because this room is recommended as a "good" puzzle. Point being that it really depends of the group and the context but this is never mentionned anywhere in the videos (for sake of time probably) and will only apply to very very very few situation for it to be fun. Hope my personal opinion was helpful to understand why so many where fighting about the fact this was recommended to them. Not sure about why some got aggressive though... The internet maybe?
I'm only 2:30 in but I remember this exact puzzle described by Zee Bashew in a video he did a few years ago and I don't remember any backlash then. Now I'm gonna have to go check...
I once used a similar puzzle in a Dwarven temple. It was a stone door with a very complicated series of spinning dials that: "Only a true dwarf can solve this.". The answer was to break the door, since "Stone is no obstacle for a dwarf!".
I would make it a laboratory: after it is activated the pressure plate becomes active and the door closes, as a security feature. If the time is up, as soon as no monster is present it deactivates and opens the door. The players can figure this out by reading the diary/manual. If you want to make it more difficult let the book have a magic lock, but someone left a note somewhere how to open it, because they always forget.
A puzzle should be logical, and part of the world. No one has random traps and riddles at home.
That's a really creative way of doing it!
I did a similar puzzle years ago at a Larp I used to help run. We had a building with a cement floor that we drew chalk "clues" all over. I was sitting in a mask, a red-gloved hand held up (the button), doing a countdown from 30. It took 30 players 30 minutes to finally let the countdown finish (plenty of time to reset the next place they were going).
In the end, every table is different and has their own expectations, and if people don't like something, they should communicate it like adults and come to an agreement, whether that be a compromise or change of plans. Too many times in the TTRPG community do I see GMs and Players alike be petty and passive aggressive and it only ever makes things worse.
absolutely! I would hope every table of players has a good enough relationship with eachother to be able to say when something bothers them, without it becoming a big issue
Had a DM try something like this on me once. I disintegrated the door and kept walking.
That being said, while I do not like this kind of 'puzzle' (I dislike having the game ground to a stop for what amounts to 'hurry up and wait'), it can have it's place depending on the story and party.
That's completely fair. I have to say in regards to your comment, that's the perfect attitude for encountering stuff you're not a fan of, in a session. Thanks for the rational thoughts, and for watching :)
i think you make a good point regarding the players' trust in the DM. i've never really thought of that trust being variable between tables, but i agree that something as fun and silly as this shouldn't have any significant impact on the DM-player relationship unless that trust was strained to begin with.
I feel like everyone talking negative doesnt realize that DMs usually read the room, how much do your players like puzzles, are they easily stressed by these things or do they just like combat. I assume most DMs use puzzles that players would like or get a kick out of and not just try and bore the players, or else they wouldnt keep playing.
Exactly! Most DMs would have a pretty good idea whether their players would like this puzzle or not, before using it. Like I knew my players would more than likely enjoy the twist. If I knew they don't like stuff like this, I obviously wouldn't use it haha 😂
Well said and thanks for watching!
I'd make it the exit to a dungeon. They get thrown in from above directly into that room. Inevitably, what would happen is they'd split the party. One party to explore one party to man the button. Which could be done with one person, but what if they get attacked. Actually, they probably will be, so the button group doesn't get bored.
great idea!
I've run a version of that puzzle in different ways for five different tables. Each time having it unique and each time people had fun and enjoyed, laughed, joked, really got into the moment of trying to solve it and the danger their characters were in. Out of those five times I've only had one person who didn't like it, which is fair but they also were the one player that was constantly trying to be disruptive with their phone.
As for the controversy. The online community tents to go to extremes easily since what ever they say they never have to actually interact with the person they are saying it to beyond that singular comment.
This puzzle reminds me of that one episode of ninjago where they had to go through a dungeon of three or so puzzles, and the way they knew what to do was a riddle. I don't remember what the entire thing is, but the first two lines were "what a spinjitsu master can, what a spinjitsu master cannot" and the second puzzle's answer was "giving up" which is something the ninjas, as spinjitsu masters, could not do.
I think a lot more people would like this puzzle if there was some aspect of it that gave you a clue towards why that was the answer in the first place. At the very least, the DM has an excuse and it doesn't feel like the dm completely left you hanging.
Very good point! There is definitely a lot of flexibility for the DM to leave some clues or story moments that point the way
i uae these kind of rooms with villians or other npcs that have lairs with loads of tricks and traps. so its to be expected
also punishing players for being bastards is perfectly acceptable
that's something I didn't really touch on, there's definitely ways to make the puzzle make sense story-wise, like you've said. Thanks for watching!
I don't know why you showed up in my recommendeds, but praise be the algorithm! Just finished watching a bunch of your videos, and you do an excellent job of explaining concepts and showing multiple viewpoints. I also love how you provide very clear examples for different ideas. Keep up the good work, I'm looking forward to more content!
Thanks so much! That's really nice of you to say :D
People who think this puzzle takes away player agency actually don't know what they're talking about.
Everyone else who got angry over this needs to learn that every table is different and they only need to worry about the content at their own table.
absolutely, I do think there is a lot of misunderstanding about this puzzle. It's not the players having no options. They do have options, the question is just how willing they are to take the risk 🤷
@@RoguesRollCall-Cam I don't know if it's just a lot of people used to playing with bad DMs but the hate for this puzzle and similar things seems to largely be based on the players assuming the worst, either in terms of potential consequences for letting the timer run out or the implementation of the puzzle into the larger game. If I didn't know the puzzle I wouldn't expect anything worse than a fun additional challenge from letting the timer run out after searching the room and finding nothing. Unless I was specifically playing in a high stakes campaign I wouldn't expect a death trap and it'd have to be one that expected player character deaths to have a death trap with a little info as this puzzle gives without letting the timer run out. If the puzzle shows up in a way that doesn't fit the game I'm playing, that's not the puzzle's fault, it's the DM's.
Your tats are amazing. Your content is amazing. You are killing it! Keep it up. :)
That's super nice of you to say, thanks!
As a player and DM this puzzle sounds too easy.
All the comments saying that it "Betrays trust between the DM and Players" are simply wrong. I trust my DM implicitly. I trust them not to put my character in a position in which they'd die for a stupid non-climactic reason ever.
The anatomy of the puzzle is that there isn't really an obvious threat. A threat would be something that would have an effect of death. In this case, there are just torches.
So let's break it down.
The torches running out is a cause. A correct assumption would lead the party to believe that the torches running out would cause something, however everyone at a table in which the trust is implicit, means that the torches wouldn't cause death, they'd instead cause another cause that could lead to death. And if there is another cause, that means that there will be another solution to stop that cause.
So walking into a room, with these torches and some holes? There is no immediately threat of death, only an element of cause. A smart party would let the torches run out straight away and prepare themselves to solve the second cause that actually has the effect of death. If there wasn't a second solution to solve the second cause, that's when the players and DM realize "Actually this was a bad puzzle because you're all going to die even though you did everything right."
However this isn't all in defense of the puzzle. It is fundamentally bad. A well-seasoned and prepared party would let the torches run out and then the door would immediately open... which means the puzzle was indeed a waste of time. It would have taken 30 seconds of real life time for it to be over, so why even have it there in the first place if the puzzle itself was so insignificant and not challenging at all?
I'd counter argue two points at myself, the first being that the challenge itself was trivial to experienced D&D players who are good at solving dungeons, and solving a puzzle that is so trivial so quickly could make the players feel really good that they've played the game so much that they can easily solve these puzzles. In addition, this easy puzzle would be an excellent setup, letting the players guard down before facing a much harder puzzle.
The second counter argument I'd make is that non-experienced players can learn from this. The panic of not knowing sets in, and at the end of it all, when the torches run out and the problem is solved, then the new players would have learned this puzzle, and would have taken another step toward becoming veteran adventurers.
Another point against the trap would be "Why would any powerful and ancient entity that created this dungeon make this trap?" Traps are designed to kill trespassers, or at least disadvantage them in some way.
Well my final response to this is linked to all the reasons listed above: The mage who made this simple yet confusing trap filters out the weaker adventurers from the stronger and smarter, letting those worthy of challenging the mage further into the dungeon. To fulfill this goal, I'd actually add a poison gas or some other thing to come out of the holes in the walls if the players dont let the torches out in a longer amount of time. (Like if they press the plate five times)
Trap just needs a single edit to make it worth-while, definitely not a good trap but a very good building block for something good.
You make some really fantastic points. Not just level-headed, but also the perfect balance of understanding on either side of the fence. The story reason for the puzzle being there is something I wish I'd touched on more in the video, but you summed it up pretty well anyway.
Thanks so much for watching and for all the great food for thought
I like it. If anything it would make me more paranoid.
Who said that it was the only door that opened? There might be other doors big and small linked to the same mechanism. It also can make lore/combat mechanics sense: door can even be reused: if there is a chase, the door would delay chasers if you lock the door,.
Dude. Welcome to the RPG community. lolol. That is a shitty trap. I love it.
😂 hahaha 100% fair assessment. Thanks for watching!
I've got a puzzle/trap that this reminds me of. It is technically a punishment puzzle for if my players keep trying to metagame their way around stuff by doing things like looking up stat blocks and would probably be just as well received as the door puzzle.
I present...the Tarp Trap.
You all enter a room that is roughly 40 feet wide and 100 ft long. In the center of the room a large expanse of cloth is spread across the floor forming a complete 30ft wide band from one wall to the other. Large mysterious glyphs in what appear to be (insert language of choice no PC has here) emblazon the center of the cloth. Now here's the kicker...that is the entire trap. If they do something like cast comprehend languages the text in the middle of the tarp says "trap" in whatever language it was. If they cast detect magic they get back nothing magical. If they try to examine the tarp or check for traps I ask if they are touching it at all and have them roll their investigation and tell them, "you can't seem to find anything amiss with the cloth, nothing seems to be dangerous about it." It is important for the tarp to be just barely at the edge of width where most PCs won't be able to clear it with a running long jump. But if they do you let them jump over it and just tell them that nothing happens if they clear it.
The entire point of the trap is purely psychological and based on your individual players. My son stole this and used it against his friends a couple of months back and they had amazing fun joking and ribbing at each other after they realized what they had done. Only took them about 15-20 min to get past it.
I love that :D
People just .. bad. I don’t like the puzzle but is this a reason to comment. I don’t think do
My only beef with this puzzle is that it's so famous that there's too much meta knowledge surrounding it, so it doesn't have the intended effect among those who've been playing, or at least listening to stuff about, TTRPGs for a while. It kind of becomes a Princess Bride poisoned chalice scene and essentially a 50/50 shot of getting right with no real clues. Maybe there's ways to tweak it to make it work without this issue (a clue hidden in the room in riddle form or something), but as-is, it's just a source of temporary anxiety and frustration.
But yeah, if you like it and it worked with your players, awesome. Glad they weren't spoiled beforehand, and it created a tense scene followed by perhaps a laugh of relief and a jocular arm-punch. :)
Absolutely agree with you there! Luckily my players are still relatively new and haven't done many of the pre-made modules, so I get to use some of the classics haha. Thanks for watching!
@@RoguesRollCall-Cam Nice! Glad you can take advantage of new experiences to show them great things a lot of people have seen done to death. :D
I believe this puzzle is completely fine to use -- so long as it has little-to-no stakes in or towards the main campaign's plot. Callbacks are a thing. If a GM were to run this puzzle, then MUCH later choose to introduce a similar room but with real traps and the potential for a key NPC, item, or party member to be lost -- then you deserve to lose player trust.
very fair point
I don't think I have ever heard of this puzzle before. As a GM that loves to create puzzles, this puzzle doesn't sound like as good of a time, as something I would create myself. I do'nt think that makes it bad a puzzle. And I wouldn't say I would NEVER run it. Just not something I would be interested in running right now.
However, I can see it's merits. It's interactive. The characters are making actions. This is a mandatory feature in any puzzle I run.
If is uncomplicated. A puzzle with fewer moving parts is significatnly easier for your players to grasp, and solve. This puzzle has 4 elements to it (doors, torches, pressure pad, & ominous holes).
The bigest flaw is it is solution narrow. Since the whole point of the puzzle it to trust and do nothing, there is only ONE solution. No matter how creative players get, it MUST be this one solution or else you lose the point of doing the puzzle in the first place. And this can lead to an abundance of time in this room where the players retreading the same unworkable ideas.
I kow there are ways to nudge a PC with skillful GMing, but in this puzzle, those opportunities are not obvious. A GM who is intermediatly skilled at running interactive D&D puzzles (specifically that skill) could likely do a good job. But, you could end up floundering.
TLDR: I enjoyed this vid. I think it's a okay puzzle in the right hands, but ha a high potential for suckery.
Very fair points, and thanks for watching :D
While yes not everybody enjoys puzzles, I feel like someone saying that it's a waste of time and nobody likes them is just the kind of person that can't constructively think for themselves and gotta have everything handed to them on a platter, otherwise it's too much effort lol
For a game with multiple trickster gods some players get awfully butthurt when the DM tricks them.
haha very true 😂
I personally find this puzzle hilarious and your additional information on how to treat this puzzle is useful, i'd really like to inclue it in my campaign. But...
I think you should take it more easy. It is pointless to try to defend yourself against internet shitstorm created in TikTok comments by people that have attention lifespan under 10 seconds. They will most probably never watch this video, meanwhile you got frustrated as if you really messed up, feeling guilty to the point where you have to excuse yourself by making a video 12 times longer than the original.
TL;DR - You are good, internet are stupid, they don't deserve you making full-length video excuses to a TikTok, they won't watch it anyway
Yeah you're definitely right, and thanks for saying that, I do appreciate it, truly. Normally getting criticized, even with some personal insults, washes right over me but I think I was just a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of comments on that video. That was pretty new to me. But again, you're right. Thanks again!
I had a dm that at the end of seasion said 'you enter a room with an hourglass in the center on this rock table, and thats where we will end the season'
And in post dnd conversation I brought up 'Yo! That reminds me of *this puzzle"
Come to find out thats exactly what the dm was doing and he had to change xD
hahaha I've had that a few times! Now I always try to change puzzles at least a bit, so even if the players have heard of it, they still get some kind of surprise 😂
@@RoguesRollCall-Cam Oh the joys of being both a DM and a Player xD
Imagine getting outraged over this puzzle. THIS one. Of all the potential puzzles with which to find issue. Not death-traps with insta-kills, not dead-end rooms in a labyrinth that *literally* just waste time, but *this* simple, harmless "gotcha" puzzle is the one you choose to rant about.
Imagine being that pathetic.
Haha we love you too Cam ❤, you always make us smile
haha thanks Jenni, you're always appreciated
All of those commenters sound like the kind of players I had the misfortune of sitting next to at public games only to think "No wonder these folks are at public games... there's no way they're getting invited to someone's home."
Yeah for sure. The ones saying they don't like the puzzle and explaining why were fine, but the ones throwing a tantrum about it just made me sad for their DMs/Players
I like the idea of this trap being part of a prankster's gauntlet, with some sort of scrying device that the party later discovers is for the owner to watch their bumbling for its entertainment.
That's a great story device for using this puzzle!
Personally i think this puzzle is great! Sometimes things are just not what we expect.
I think a lot of people bitching just, don't like puzzles and started malding. I want to use it, but have had no place for it.
I did notice quite a few comments that seemed to hate the idea of puzzles in general. They were going on and on about things "slowing down" but it's like... that's the point of most puzzles? It's not combat, you're MEANT to stop and think and use problem solving skills. Anyway, I'm ranting again haha. Thanks for watching Miles :)
This is exactly why introducing people to games is bad, which is not gatekeeping, make them get to it by themselves, if they really get into it, well you got yourself a new fan,otherwise you get this...
I don't think it a good puzzle to randomly though into an adventure, but I think it could work if it fit in the adventure you are playing. I think there should be a reason for it to be there - who put it there and why?
I think you're forgetting one of the most if not the most important aspects of RPG and DnD, and considering it would automatically solve almost everything here: The narrative!
I don't like "puzzle for the sake for puzzle"s. In my opinion, shouldn't only regard such things as "designing a puzzle for the players" which is out-of-game, but also "constructing something for adventurers" which is in-game.
So you have to think about
- Is it supposed to be a trick, trap, or trial?
- Who made this mechanism?
- For what purpose?
- What was their capabilities?
- Was there any obviously better alternatives within their options?
So let's check this puzzle and speculate few situations where it can make sense and few that it doesn't.
- The creator of the dungeon is a mischievous person who enjoys playing tricks on others: Makes sense.
- The creator is a Lich who wishes to keep outsiders away or harm them: Not so much. Because they'd eventually pass it, and it isn't likely adventurers would spend too much of their resources on it.
- The creator is doing a ritual at the end of dungeon, and wishes to buy time to complete it: Maaaybe? It begs the question why open the door at all after a certain time? Why not put the switch on the other side and let a minion keep resetting the timer as long as the master doesn't order him otherwise? Maybe he doesn't have minions? Maybe he's afraid the minion could be charmed or something? It's a trickier scenario to make narrative sense out of, but possible.
- The creator wants to test the mettle of adventurers, and to figure out worthy from unworthy: Yes, just add a secondary criteria for the creator such as total time spent, so that not literally everyone in the continent would pass it eventually after a while.
- And so on.
If there is narrative backbone behind such puzzles, it helps players too, both in solving it and accepting it. If they know what kind of dungeon this is, either by knowing something about the creator or even just the general vibes and feel of the dungeon, they can have a general idea about the nature of challenges, risks, stakes, and solutions they'll be facing. For example if they know the creator/current master of this dungeon is a good but mischievous Fey, they'd be far more likely to think of and risk letting the count down run out, compared to when it's a Lich and they'd fear that "it should be a mechanism to differentiate ally from intruder and they'd be recognized as intruder and die by poison if they don't say a password or something" which they'd be kind of right about it. Even they don't know anything about the creator, they get an impression by monsters and other characteristics. Also these puzzles can be a tool to convey information about the setting, lore and characters, and set the stage for later. For example in the "mischievous Fey" case, you can describe "as the last torch goes out, you hear a playful mocking whisper of a laugh echo inside the room, hehehehehehe. Yet it's impossible to figure out from where or which direction it's coming from, as if everywhere and nowhere. But somehow you know for certain whoever it is, they're not actually here".
TLDR, you have to make your puzzles such that it makes sense for them to exists in their location.
Absolutely! Very very well said. I couldn't really say it in the first, short video, but giving the puzzle a narrative purpose is a great point I should have mentioned in this video. Thanks for all the great thoughts
Ahah sounds like my brand of evil :') I don't get the betrayal of trust thing either... It's unreasonable to trust the dm not to do things you won't like. I understand how somebody might not like this kind of puzzle (personally I think it would be hilarious the first time I encountered it, but I would have less and less fun the more it came up) however I can't see why it would be reason enough to get mad. My general rule is that anything can happen in a campaign (unless some sort of limits have been discussed beforehand and agreed-upon rules have been established). Obviously rules can be updated as the campaign progresses but for every proposal of change I think the party should either take a vote (the dm should have a vote too in this case) or there would need to be valid reasons for the dislike of one to take precedence over the wishes of the other people. If I was the dm and a single player came to me huffing and puffing telling me this puzzle was a waste of time, they feel betrayed and can I not do it ever again, I would remind them that they're not the only one playing and that they have the choice to leave at any moment (and come back as the dm of the next campaign, if they wish). Maybe I would even take a page out of your book and tell them I love them as they slammed the door behind them
haha very well said Anna 😂
and I love you too. Haha. Thanks for another great video.
😂❤️
Sorry to hear that this "puzzle" ignited a lot of flammes ont your channel (and glad to hear that as well as the algorythm will recommend your videos to more people because of it).
I personally, as a DM and a player, do not like this puzzle at all. If the argument is the risk taken, there SHOULD be a way to anticipate that the room wont blow up or an alternative. E.G: The player know of a creature which is living there which seems to be extremely lazy and take its time... Or in a temple all about patience and meditation. Or an alternative where the player can just skip the room by spending time reading inscriptions to waste the character time and not the player time if they absolutly hate it during the game.
My players... And as a player... We tend to try our best to find the meaning of the puzzle, sometimes spending hours for a solution, having this "puzzle" recommended without alternative sounds like a session wasted to my group and I think a lot of other people got upset because this room is recommended as a "good" puzzle. Point being that it really depends of the group and the context but this is never mentionned anywhere in the videos (for sake of time probably) and will only apply to very very very few situation for it to be fun.
Hope my personal opinion was helpful to understand why so many where fighting about the fact this was recommended to them. Not sure about why some got aggressive though... The internet maybe?
Those are some very fair points, for not liking this puzzle and I absolutely understand. Thanks for giving some thoughtful insight :)