IMPORTANT.. MUST READ Whilst I thought I was keeping things purposely simple I'm getting comments regarding impedance. So to be clear. I'm not saying high impedance headphones can be easier driven than low impedance headphones. The discussion was originally about planars and dynamics but it was a bit too long winded so I cut it out. Heres what I took out the original edit as it was originally too long. "ohm + sensitivity relation is important. Just because a headphone is low ohm does not mean you can drive it easily and vice versa. It's all about how much MW is required to drive a headphone to highest level." I spoke about planar headphones especially because it's important to know that on the most part they require a lot more juice to power, for example, even though my sundaras are 30 ohm they require 314mv at 94dbspl which is inbetween HD 650 & 600 sennheisers!) and it also isn't reccomended to use a high impedance headphone amp with low impedance headphones as this can result in power issues and also lots of frequency related problems. WHY DOES OUTPUT IMPEDANCE MATTER? It matters for at least three reasons: The greater the output impedance the greater the voltage drop with lower impedance loads. This drop can be large to enough to prevent driving low impedance headphones to sufficiently loud levels. A real world example is the Behringer UCA202 with a 50 ohm output impedance. It struggles with some 16 - 32 ohm headphones. Headphone impedance changes with frequency. If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations. Different headphones will interact in different, and typically unpredictable, ways with the source. Sometimes these variations can be large and plainly audible. As output impedance increases electrical damping is reduced. The bass performance of the headphones, as designed by the manufacture, may be audibly compromised if there’s insufficient damping. The bass might become more “boomy” and less controlled. The transient response becomes worse and the deep bass performance is compromised (the headphones will roll off sooner at low frequencies). A few, such as those who like a very warm “tube like” sound, might enjoy this sort of under damped bass. But it’s almost always less accurate compared to using a low impedance source. I just massively simplified that in my video. So just ensure you have a headphone amp with an impedance ideally of no more than 2 ohms and do your research. Also for those looking for the scientific back up and research carried out by others, here is Amir's review of my topping dx7 pro+ on audio science review. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx7-pro-review-dac-hp-amp.36978/ Honestly check out the rest of his reviews.. Valuable resource for the community. Don't go to sound on sound or any other paid advertising sites.. This is the right address!! Also here are some links for some of the product's mentioned (yes they are affiliate links.. Best I could get as I can't get them to send any gear my way 🤣) Presonus Revelator io24 audio interface www.thomann.de/gb/presonus_revelator_io24.htm?partner_id=94442 Topping L30 mk2 apos.audio/products/topping-l30-ii-headphone-amp?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Hifiman Sundara planar headphones apos.audio/products/hifiman-sundara-planar-magnetic-headphones?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Topping DX7 pro+ apos.audio/products/topping-dx7-pro-dac-amp-apos-certified?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Audeze LCD-X apos.audio/products/audeze-lcd-x-open-back-headphone?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
It installed its own drivers on windows as soon as I plugged it in. Outside the daw I just select it in the windows speaker selection, In the daw I use the ASIO driver I had installed already
Thanks Paul - you keep costing me money. But I now have an L30 and an E30 and you are so right - what a difference in clarity! I'm still confused on the 80dB SPL listening level and how to measure that? In another video you mentioned 'gain staging' your monitoring path but I'm not sure how to do this. Currently I have the E30 set to 0dB output, L30 output gain at 0dB and driving Sennheiser HD650s so that they're loud but not threshold of pain. I'm also using iRealphones for crosstalk and (I assume) Harman curve with HD-650 model loaded. Am I missing anything? Another question - if my DAW session is 48k/24bit is there any point in setting the E30 to higher resolution? Appreciating your candid content.
Regarding listening levels… In the very early part of balancing a mix, like balancing the kick/bass etc., i do turn down to where you can barely hear it. At that level, things completely disappear, and just above that level, you can hear clearly how main elements are sitting with one another. It’s super helpful. Once i have very basic balance, then it’s time to turn it up to proper level. Every once in a while checking loud and soft. I find i get the best results keeping at a good level, but occasionally turning wayyy down and up a little, briefly. And then, take breaks! Let your ears and brain reset.
I do a combo of mixing on headphones and mixing on speakers. I'm trying to lean more into headphones as my room is problematic to say the least and following watching this video I realise that I was listening too low on cans. I have a level that I like to mix at on monitors and I thought that if I was mixing on headphones then I should have them "feel" as loud as monitors. But after watching this I cranked my headphones when I was working and that alone was a game changer. I know "we perceive louder as better" but it's not that, the louder volume made the problems in the mix more apparent, masking etc. To Paul's line about "you can't mix what you can't hear" because of distortion etc from your crappy headphone amp or DAC "you also can't mix what you can't hear if you've got your cans down too low to hear where the problems are." Thanks very much Paul, I've a track to car test later after working on it at a higher level over the weekend and I'm hopeful that it's closer to being done than it's ever been.
also paul, if I have your attention. I was kicking the tyres on the topping headphone amp you recommended and they were also trying to sell me on their E 30 II DAC, any opinions on that unit? I'd be hopeful that it'd work as well as the DAC on the DX7 pro as I've no need for pres and TBH I wouldn't be willing to make that kind of investment at this stage.
My first mix listening loud was a big improvement. Explains a lot why I was adding in so much low end before. Pushing yourself to get as close to the flattest Fletcher munson curve is a big thing for mixing. I'm still trying to get my head round the fact that our ears are essentially a 2500 band multiband compressor.. Crazy 🤯
@@PaulThird I think that's a big part of it. This particular song I'm trying to pitch the tonal balance in between 2 references. And I kept struggling to figure out why it sounded so bad when I bounced it out to try it elsewhere despite being happy with it in my room. When I turned the volume up I quickly realised that I'd actually mixed it to be darker than the darker of the 2 tracks I was trying to get in between
I have a 2 day old baby chicken 🐔 whose mother got taken by a fox all 7 siblings also died. The only way I calmed it down was to put pair of headphones next to it with your soothing voice from this video on repeat. It fell asleep and rested for a couple of hours. BTW the chic didn't care that it was coming out of a cheap DA.
@@PaulThird I finally got an expensive DAC and things are so clear. I finally heard your voice clearly enough that now I can confidently rule out that you speak in an Australian accent.
Thanks, Paul. As a God Mode sound designer and producer I don't need to mix and master my perfect tracks. Mage! Mage, wake up! You're dreaming again. 😄
Came back to say I just upgraded to RME ADI-2 with Audeze LCD-X and, well, after a week or so adjusting, I am extremely grateful for your advice, and effectively showing me where my weak link in the chain is. If you have a consumer interface with spdif or optical out, do yourself a favour, you will never look back.
I’m not sure how to measure 85dbspl on a pair of headphones… but if i set my speakers at 85db with a spl meter. And then try to match the level on my headphones, my brain is melting. Even on speakers, 85db is brain meltingly loud. I always try to change levels all the time. I have a stream deck hooked up to my rme ufx ii and have different snapshots set at different levels. 0, -6 and -25 db. I do most of my mixing at -6. That is roughly 75dbspl. Snapshots for different eq curves too. One ”hifi bad” with a huge shelf boost starting at 2k and nothing below 80hz. And one that sounds like my car. You really should get yourself a rme card. It improved my workflow many times the money i spent buying it. And it sounds great too. ;)
Feels loud to me as well but I've got used to it now. After reading mixing engineers handbook I knew the 80-85db thing was actually true. I used a db app on my phone and just stuck the microphone in the cups haha not ideal but it's a ball park. I then bought an SPL meter to make sure and the phone mic was off by 3-5 db which isn't massive but enough to justify the £30 for the meter
Sundaras are high end, they just don't cost as much as focals and audeze. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hifiman-sundara-review-headphone.22529/ My mentor had lcdx and compared to sundara. Ditched audeze and uses sundara every day
Hey Paul! Just found out your channel and already subscribed. Great content! I am wondering if you are still using the L30 II with the DX7, or is the hp amp on the DX7 the same as the L30 or better? Cheers!
Great vid Paul! How do you have the Topping DX7 Pro+ setup in Studio One? Do you have that setup as the main driver in the settings or are you using the revelators drivers and somehow connecting to the DX7 Pro+? And are you then going out of the DX7 Pro+ into the L30 m2? Sorry for the confusion but I was looking at the RME too and seeing you do this... I've got the duck thing going on at the moment too until big grandma duck drops the golden egg ;)
Hey Paul, awesome tips! I'm slowly upgrading my headphone setup for production/mixing. Might be a dumb question, but do these Topping DACs have any more latency than pro audio interfaces?
Latency is something to worry about when recording as its a full round trip. ADC picking up the signal and then being converted to digital, and then transferred back to analog in the DAC so you can hear it. Using a DAC is just purely for monitoring purposes so just digital to analog conversion. That's why you would need a seperate interface for recording. I have a recording setup and a mixing setup that I switch between. Alternatively if you want the best of both worlds in one package then an RME interface like UCX ii would be your best shout but you'll pay slightly more dependent on how many pre's you need. My whole recording and monitoring set up costs around £950 where a 2 channel RME ucx ii costs around £1200. Can be argued you'd be may as well paying the extra for the RME as the ADC side is better spec but I like the revelator pre's and the real time DSP uses presonus fat channel which includes their high quality emus like 1176, la2a, pultec, gate, etc which has become pretty invaluable for my situation for recording the podcast, zoom calls, live stuff etc etc So it really comes down to your specific situation and what you can afford
@@PaulThird Thanks man! My headphone setup right now consists of an Apogee Duet (ipad/mac version) feeding a Subpac S2 from the headphone out and a Topping L30 (mk1 late serial) from the line out, with a Focal Elex plugged into that. Looking at ASR tests, the Duet could be the weakest link in the chain atm, and I feel like what you're saying in your video kinda supports that theory for me. So I'm thinking I should probably get one of those great measuring cheaper Topping DACs for monitoring as a logical next step, and keep the Apogee for recording, like you did. Or should I get rid of the L30 and go balanced with a DX7, is the upgrade to balanced worth the difference? The Elex came with a balanced cable as well. Btw for long hours of production and just pleasure listening I love the waves nx abbey road plugin with the head tracker with this setup (at 96k). I lose a little bit of detail, but I get a very deep and holographic stereo image especially on the main monitors that to my ears I can't find in other room sim plugins so far. Some say the tracker is a gimmick, but I can actually work longer when I have it on. I just bypass the plugin when I need the intimate and insane detail of the Elex, but I spend most of my time on the nearfields or mains so I don't get ear fatigue. I've rolled the bass off so it evenly fades into the visceral lows of the Subpac, which gets a separate clean signal. Loving this setup going 2 years now.
The DAC is a huge part of what you are hearing. I didn't think I'd hear much difference going from the id44/l30 mk2 combo to the dx7 pro+ but it actually makes a lot of sense as it's proper DAC where the l30 mk2 is being fed the signal from the audient line outs which imparts its own sound. Just a purer signal with the dx7 pro+ but the converters also play a big role as they are using ESS SABRE ES9038PRO chipset which is their flagship. Those chips get used a lot for home theatre use and stuff. And also its really high quality 24 bit Bluetooth transition as well which I've still not even tested haha
Ive been mixing thru headphones using the Audioquest Dragonfly. For years its been my go-to DAC and headphone amp. The difference of that DAC/amp to other audio interface is literally NIGHT & DAY. It was a good investment for me instead of buying budget(to mid-tier) audio interfaces. Accurate listening in headphones is very crucial. Cheers! 🙂🙂
Hi Jess. I'm looking at getting a headphone amp and noticed the Audioquest Dragonfly have the bonus of being very small! Do you recommend a particular model? Also, does the fact that they are USB increase the CPU usage? (as opposed to thunderbolt/ USB-C)
@@evanmcgregor3758 HI! Im using Dragonfly Black 1.5. to my knowledge it doesn't consume any CPU usage. its a plug-and-play USB. No drivers needed. Cheers! 😄
Hey man i am mixing on headphones and plan to do so for the next few years at least. I agree with you on everything but I dont want to have different devices for each component in the chain, something compact is what I look for. Do you think RME Fireface latest version covers everything perfectly, AD/DA, headphone amp?
Nah not really. You can mix 16 hours at 80db spl. 8 hours straight at 85db spl. Theres been enough scientific tests done to show that. If that's loud you should go into some studios haha there are some pros that listen as loud as 90-95db and 80-85db is their conversation level 😅 Reading mixing engineers handbook opened my eyes quite a bit. In the end its all about taking regular breaks and not exposing your ears for long listening at any level. Your perception and judgement can lost pretty quick so if you are pacing yourself then 80-85db will be a breeze. The human ear is a very fascinating part of the human body and protects itself more than you think. Theres a great AES lecture all about it
ok Paul, that s good to know. Thanks for your clarification. Anyway, I tend not to go louder than 80dBs, even with guitar amps . Loved the video man, as usual. Keep it up, thank you ;)❤
Nice tips!, my mixes got way better when I started to use headphones.. but as always.. using references all the time... and I think its very important to know the frequencies your headphone pulls down.. or pump up... it can helps us to do less mistakes...
Very informative vid! Looking at specs alone the motu m2 interface seems to have the best specs for its price range. How would this compare in sound quality (headphones) to a RME do you think? I have the audient id14 and was thinking of upgrading to the motu for its headphone capability. Worth it?
I can't see it sounding better. There are only a handful of interfaces that deliver high quality headphone amps with enough clean linear power to sufficiently drive hungry planars and many high impedance cans To put it into context. It's like £200 which isn't shaving the arse off the price of a topping l30 mk2 which is just a headphone amp haha
Amazing content. Although I love using my Audient id44 for tracking, I needed a set of headphones that work well for mixing., so, I purchased the Neumann NDH 30. Now I need a headphone amp that is worthy for theNDH30. I'm guessing the Topping will be a decent choice. What is the suggested method for integrating the Topping to my DAW (Reaper)? Cheers.
@@PaulThird Well, I think you sold me on the Topping DX7 Pro+. I'm not exactly sure how to connect it to the id44... I'm guessing the preferred connection should be the id44 optical out to the Topping DX7 Pro+ optical in. Also considering your suggestion for the Goodhertz can opener for crosstalk. Any additional suggestions? cheers.
First of all happy christmas to you and your family. second - I have a second gen scarlett 18i20, the thd is worse than the topping, but it's the same on the line outs as the headphone amp, wouldn't that be the weakest point in the chain and defeat the point? or is the extra level coming from the topping meaning lower output from the scarlett solving that? would love to know if it's worth it to add to my setup but obviously don't wanna spend if there's gonna be no point. or am I missing the point entirely and should be getting an external DAC as well to bypass the scarlett entirely?
DAC makes a big difference. The DAC chipset each use has a lot to do with the sound. The headphone amps will always be bottle necked by the interfaces DAC & line outs but the amps are more for ensuring lowest headphone output impedance as well as power for hungry headphones. That's where low THD headphone amps really come into their own to my ears when they are being pushed to power hungry cans. I think most of the scarlett stuff is 1ohm which is great BUT I always hear an improvement on transients and distortion with the topping l30 compared to budget interfaces. The best scenario is to get a dac/amp combo which is what I did.
@@PaulThird thanks for the reply! that makes me think investing in the dx7 would maybe make more sense. I mostly use the vsx headphones these days so I'm not battling impedance really, so again I guess I get concerned I'll not get the full benefits. After watching so many of your videos though (and trying out nebula because of you) it's difficult not to get excited about something when you get excited about it haha. suppose I can always get something and return it if I'm not hearing enough difference though. apologies for my adhd rambling, nice to talk to someone so knowledgeable though who isn't being paid to sell me something
Paul, when you say 80-85 dB, do you mean dBA, or dBC? I think both of those are too loud to recommend, but dBC might be more passable. However, that's still loud levels. You'd wear your ears out if that was your normal levels. Like, you'd get hearing damage over time. I don't like that you say you need to mix at that level. The suggestion should rather be "remember to check your mix at higher listening levels, too", because that's a totally fair argument. Poor mixes do fall apart at higher volume levels, and it's important to keep track of, but I don't think we should argue to always have that listening level.
Read mixing engineering books and you'll read clear as day that they are listening around 80-85db.. The odd even louder. You can mix up to 8 hours at those levels and tbh you shouldn't be mixing more than 8 hours anyway as your ears will be shot by then. 80db is busy traffic. Science is just science. There's a reason why these guys mix at these levels. I asked the pro's I know and they all said 80-85db. In terms of weighted I measure dbC as that's what I was told but check that out www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm Solid information, collected and averaged
I have a RME Babyface Pro FS I was curious if i needed a headphone amp , as i use headphones to mix If i do, or if you recommend doing so, will you please recommend something I trust your opinion after binging almost half your videos so far lmfao Thank You for your knowledge
You may have convinced me to get a headphone amp, i am currently using planar mixing headphones plugged into the focusrite 2i2. I thought because it can get loud enough for me that it was good enough, but i'm going to try the Topping L30 mk2 and i'm interested to see the difference that will make for the clarity.
@@g.o.9513 I bought the topping l30ii and It seemingly makes no difference unless you're coming from something truly crap, it turns out my focusrite 2i2 was indeed good enough to power my planars and i can't tell any obvious differences between the two when volume matched.
That's really surprising cause I've had a lot of people comment and DM to thank me for reccomending the L30ii and quite a few had 2i2's and offer focusrites If you can't hear it then you hear it but if you still have L30ii could you do me a favour and try the test I do when comparing headphone amps. This also applies to anybody else reading this. FYI Gain needed depends on the sensitivity of the headphone. My sundaras had a low sensitivity but not all planars do. A lot do need a lot of gain but depends Also, Before you do this ensure you are listening around 80-85db spl 1. Listen to hella good by no doubt and listen particularly to the snare. There should be an audible transient difference as the topping measures a very quick transient response which is where many hp amps struggle. You'll gear a difference in the snap of the transient. 2. Listen to the chorus synth in hella good and compare the distortion of it as I normally find this as a good distortion test as that synth can lose clarity very quickly on lower quality systems (this is probably more of a DAC thing but I recall hearing it compared to the audient hp amp) 3. Listen to the acoustics and vocal clarity of stay by post malone. Normally I find the vocal is a little more intelligible and guitar a little more detailed due to the transients and ultra low distrortion. 4. For low end listen to typhoon by royal blood. This should be a good low end distortion and transient test. Like the no doubt track listen to the transient response and if the low end of the kick is slightly cleaner If after all that there is no difference to your ears, then it doesn't really matter what you use or buy headphone amp wise. And that's not me being a dick, there's just no point expirimenting further with hp amps as the topping measures better than nearly all hp amps out there As a final note though, remember that the DAC will always bottle neck the headphone amp. So if you can't hear a difference in a headphone amp then try comparing interface to a good dac amp or dac amp combo
@@PaulThird I did keep the topping as i got a great deal on it and it's good to have just in case i ever get high impedance headphones. And I just tried these tests, i still can't really hear an obvious difference between my 2i2's headphone out and the topping. To give more info, my headphones i'm using are the avantone planars which are 32 ohms and have a sensitivity of 104 dB/1mW, which i think it quite easy to drive? I'm not sure, but also i tend to listen to my music and mix at quieter volumes to prevent ear fatigue over long sessions. It is possible that i might just not be trained to listen out for transients, but i personally can't tell an obvious difference between the two, at least with these headphones.
You should also spend some time listening to your mixes at a quieter level, like quiet enough that you could hear someone call your name. Beyond a certain point, the louder you play back your audio the more the system (or even your ears) will start to compress the sound; if you're mixing that loud, then you're mixing to a level of compression that no one else will hear, and your mixes will fall apart at lower levels. The track levels could be off, the frequencies could be out of balance, etc. I'm not saying this should be your primary mixing level, but you should definitely try your mixes out at quieter levels if that isn't something you are used to.
I did say that in the original edit but I went a bit OTT haha A mixture of both is good for the right balance but I think I made sure to push the loud aspect of it as I know not many are doing that. Most new to mixing on headphones will simply mix at their own comfortable level and not consider mixing around 80-85db as its not natural to them. I've read big legendary mixers having "their loud" at 90-95db and 80-85db being their conversation level, like what they go down to as a moderate level. I think in modern times many not growing up in big studios have learned to listen quieter cause its more comfortable and they don't know any better. True that these older pro mixers still listened at quieter levels for translation and finding an overall balance but what they 100% do every time is mix loud at some stage and make decisions based on that level where in modern day times I would say people don't even know to crank the phones and the importance of checking that. Put it this way, you can mix 16 hours at 82db and 8 hours at 85db. It's not as loud as everybody thinks but if you've not been introduced to loud levels as a normal every day occurrence then you probably won't instinctively do it. Most big records are played in clubs and venues so ensuring your mixes sound on point at those levels is vital, as is consumer headphone levels but that level isn't an issue as far as I can see cause most new engineers are mixing at that level cause that's what they listen at. Even some of the comments saying Paul that's too loud.. I'm like fuuuuck you are in for a shock if you walk into a studio with big expensive monitors haha
Hello, thank you for the interesting video. Can you use the Topping DX7 directly as an audio interface (only for monitoring)? Or is there a reason why you go via the Audient audio interface?
Yes if you use ASIO driver in the daw. Outside of DAW you can use dx7 pro+ driver. I keep the revelator & l30 mk2 combo for recording as the dx7 pro+ is purely a DAC. No ADC in there.
The desirability of having low output impedance for a headphone amplifier will depend on the design principle of the headphones in use. Unfortunately, few headphones are provided with information regarding the source impedance they are designed for. I suspect it's fair to assume modern low impedance headphones are probably designed for a low source impedance, being designed in similar fashion to speakers expecting effective electrical damping. Headphones designed to an older tradition may well be intended to operate with a source impedance more like the 120 Ohms specified in IEC standard 61938 and are likely to sound their best with such source impedance, having their frequency response and mechanical damping optimized to suit. Driven from a low impedance source, such a design risks sounding over-damped or lumpy in frequency response. It is possible that headphones designated as Studio or Monitoring headphones may have this characteristic since this would imply they expect to be used with the output of a mixing console, which will usually have this higher output impedance. But since a name like "Studio" might be attached to any headphones to suggest being high-end, you couldn't rely on that.
l have a SSL2 interface, what headphones would you recommend to mix with that? so far i have beyerdynamic dt 770’s 80 ohms Senheisser HD 280 Pros Audio Technicas M40x
I'd reccomend the ones that sound the best to you. The pair that translate into better mixes on more playback systems. . Nothing wrong with having other headphones for referencing though
@@PaulThird Thanks! I was asking because i kept seeing videos that low impedance headphones can mess with the interface and cause a distortion if you raise it up or something? Idk the Ohms for the SSL2 so i was wondering which headphones were the best for it.
Being honest, the topping l30 mk2 is like £140 and measures better than any headphone amp out there as far as I'm aware. Line outs of ssl into RCA in of topping, plug ANY headphone into it.. Job done, thank me later 👍 www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
Hello, the SSL 2 can handle 80 ohms for sure. Anything past 250 Ohms is where you'd really need to switch interface. Don't you worry about that. The beyerdynamic dt 770s and 880s are a reference for a reason. Many universities teach with them for a reason - it's a classic. I think your interface matches your headphones. If one day, you decide to go up in budget, I recommend to skip the mid-tier of 400 Buck-Interfaces and go straight for something >800. Personally I am a RME-boy, so I'd recommend the Fireface for studio and the Babyface for travel or even studio (depending on your budget and what you do). When it comes to choosing headphones you really need to test them. Heads and ears are very different and this plays a bigger role with headphones than with speakers - and even speakers are very much a taste-thing (I like iLouds and Neumanns as speakers, I also got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro and Focal Spirit One Studio Classic (not sold anymore) headphones). I suggest not to worry too much about having the "perfect" headphones for now - unless you're spending ~100 Bucks a month on plugins. In that case don't buy plugins for 8 months and get yourself a top-tier interface first and a top-tier pair of headphones 5-12 months later. Way better to invest in hardware (computer, interface, mic, headphones, speakers, room-treatment and room-optimizers (trinnov). The things I want to buy now, are the things I'd already own, if I hadn't spent the money on plugins that I never use. Now I've written a lot more than you asked for, but that's how I am somtimes, excuse me. So what headphones to use with your SSL2 interface? Yours are great for that! If you want to upgrade, upgrade the whole shabang. And don't buy plugins. The free kilohearts, melda and ableton/pro tools stock plugins are great and I use them all the time. I also use the fancy plugin here and there.. but at this point I'm pretty sure I do it mainly because I paid for them. I'd tell you which ones, but then you'd maybe go ahead and buy them instead of hardware and my whole novel here would have been for nothing - haha.
Hmm. worth a thought, there. I've got a mobile recording rig with two audient ASP880's going into an iD44 - PayPal and other credit facilities - been there, too. Well, at home, I use an Audient iD22. I mostly mix, or record me, so I don't need the 'rig', but what I have noticed is the single headphone out on the iD22 is considerably, louder, punchier and fuller than the either of the Headphone outs on the iD44. Same headphones; Audio Technica ath M50. But, I can't use the iD22 for the rig, because it's only got one light pipe. And the wee Mackie 4-way headphone amps I used recently didn't really help me as much as I thought they would. Need to do some research. Good channel, Paul. Love your cheeky-chappie honesty
Most audio interface headphone outputs are garbage, but the ones on RME are the best I've ever heard, when I jumped to an RME UFX years back, it finally retired my Earmax Valve headphone amp I was so impressed by it.
Very good headphone for the price but doesn't exceed in anything. You aren't gonna get close up front detail of the ananda nano or soundstage of the HE1000SE, or even the average that's the sundara but it's gonna give you a £100 headphone that is clean enough to take eq and sound better than most dynamics double or triple it's price
I'm glad I found these info. Totally makes sense. I went to the links you provided in the description. While I was shopping for a headphones amp, I found the L30 ii and E30 ii DAC. What are the differences between them?? Sorry everyone, please excuse my ignorance.. I'm simply recording my one classical guitar + keyboard + vocal... All of them connected to an audio interface (SSL+) which is connected to an ipad (GarageBand). I use ONLY in ear monitors (17 impedance) for mixing and editing. Now, what will serve me more L30ii or E30ii or should I get both?? Again sorry for my confusion. I'm literally new the the recording world. Cheers to all of you 👏
apos.audio/products/topping-dx1-dac-amp?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM Check that out. Best Budget DAC/AMP combo on the market. L30ii is just a headphone amp, E30 ii is just a DAC. The 2 need each other to work in a headphone setup. The l30 mk2 requires a DAC to feed an analog signal into it and the e300ii needs an amp or speaker to output its converted signal The new DX1 gives you a good compromise of both for under £100. Think of the dx1 as just slightly below the DAC performance (stats wise) of an audient id14 mk2 but with a better performing headphone amp as it has the power to drive really any headphone and comes with 0.5ohm headphone output impedance which means that it remains very linear. The 2 use different chips so I dunno if the dx1 may still sound better as the chipset does make a big difference but the audient DAC is pretty good from my experience. Not excellent but pretty decent considering the price. L30ii & E30ii (the dx1 uses the same AKM chip but e30ii uses 2 instead of 1) gives better performance but its all about whether you can be bothered linking the 2 and paying an extra £200. As the topping dx7 pro+ is my main listening output I invested in the best but for my portable setup dx1 is gonna be perfect for me. USB powered without sacrifying quality and its size is so compact it's the equivalent of carrying out a USB hard drive haha
@@PaulThird God goodness, thank you very much for your Easley explained answer. I think I m going with the dx1, though when I checked their website they are have the Dx 3 pro on sale.. it's like 50 EUR difference. What do you think?
Dunno it's hard. The dx3 pro+ was like their best seller for the longest time. I dunno what the exact difference is between pro & pro+ but I remember reading that the pro didn't like very low ohm (around 20 ohm) headphones but if you had higher impedance cans you were golden. Pro+ was an all rounder and many still believe its the best they've done. If its the dx3 pro and not pro+ then it's still a good performing dac amp. Uses the same AKM chipset as the dx1 so I really dunno what difference there is gonna be. If its pro+ then 100% that over dx1. If it's only £50 then bite their hand off
One mote question Mr. Third. I god a lake people headphone Amp. Like it a lot built like a tank but I get a kinda loud pop when I turn it on with the phones plugged in. You have that experience on your both your units? 😊
Couldn't say, my setup turns on all at the same time. As soon as I switch on the computer everything powers up so I never have my headphones on when the amp switches on
I have a Presonus 1824c with BeyerDT99's - I would love to upgrade soon but for now, well you tell me, if you feel like checking out my new track, do I need to?
I wouldn't be using 1824c for mixing on headphones. One of the highest THD+N measurements I've seen and it's working impedance range is a minimum of 32 ohms which cancels out most audeze headphones if you choose to upgrade in the future. Doesn't state headphone output impedance but the fact its working range of 32 and above would tell me that it has a high output impedance so for your beyers yeah it'll be fine but you upgrade to planars or low impedance cans in the future.. Not advisable. At that price, presonus has to cut some corners, it's inevitable offering 8 ins and outs for £360, so you get what you pay for. Id be upgrading the headphone amp at least. Personally I'd advise a dac/amp. You can link it to your 1824c via the spdif out if the DAC/amp has coaxial input. Dunno if the 1824c optical out does spdif or adat only but if it does optical spidf out and the DAC amp has an optical port you can link it that way as well so you have a pure digital signal being fed to it. Alternatively you can just use your presonus for recording and your dac/amp for mixing. Either way I'd be advising an upgrade as you can't mix what you can't hear but I'll leave that decision up to you
@@PaulThird Major thanks is due! I am thinking to go RME, just need to save for a bit, and wait for a good time to make the purchase! I may just upgrade the 1824c completely as the thought of outboarding without "the good converters" keeps me up at night.
I moved over from Lynx Hilo to RME ADI-2 Pro FS R FS last year for mastering and the RME is absolutely amazing in every detail. The headphone monitoring in the RME is one of the best on the market.
Chibai Paul, The Night vs Day part gives me anxiety and reason to consider good DAC 🤦 ..BTW, Do you know any good song/ mix reference track that is clean sounding, flat and boring but good balance that you can tweak with EQ for taste and use that EQ curve on while monitoring during mixing, so that it compensates our taste / style of how we treat the Freq/Timbre/Dynamics in our mixes... 🤔
A struggle ive had is that a lot of studio monitor headphones are great for hearing detail when tracking but are extremely colored in a way the can sound great but makes it difficult to guess how it will translate. Tried 7506, 770, 990, and k240. I have a bunch lying around that are more for listening, hifiman, grado, etc. and those were probably safe to write off but the pair I didnt try for the longest time was my sennheiser 598. That a basic plugin to simulate crossfeed and mono and youre golden. I actually dont prefer them for listening because i find everything sounds very warm and almost murky. I gave it a try and matched my recordings to how songs i love sound on them. I was able to judge the dimensions and also pleasantness of the sound better than elsewhere and it translated better to both other headphones and speakers. I love the sizzle of v shaped studio headphones and when i listened back on those it was there. Im not saying sennheiser is neutral, but in the same way youve recommended louder listening there was something about the sound signsture of the sennheiser that felt very easier to work with a produced good results.
@@PaulThird by the way, i picked up the amp you recommended. Very very very good idea. The day i got it i started working on a new album and im at the 40 minute mark now. The amp, the use of the 598, and a sterling ribbon mic were the biggest changes i made to my workstation and im super happy with the results. I owe you a big thanks for your contribution
Obviously, headphone mixing is the most practical route for most people, but music, sound vibration is also felt physically and maybe this aspect is getting lost. Also, the crosstalk thing, although it can be replicated for mixing with headphones, if most music is heard through headphones, should we create a separate 'headphone mix' with faux crosstalk that isn't present in a 'loudspeaker mix'? I presume you're not suggesting we print the crosstalk, but just use it for reference while mixing, but isn't the point to make a headphone mix translate to stereo loudspeakers, that most people aren't using(?) Cheers.
As much as headphones are the dominant force in consumer listening, it doesn't change the fact that music has been mixed and mastered on speakers for decades. Headphones were always a secondary thing that wasn't really bothered about, kinda like how mono is seen now. So as mixers we still need to adhere by those standards as music will still be played on tv's, car stereos, Bluetooth speakers etc. The aim is to find the right level of translation which tbh Ive not found an issue on headphones because I use a specific harman eq curve and high quality crosstalk algorithms. Its all about translation. When Ive mixed on headphones with hifiman sundara through realphones I've taken the speaker sim & eq off & the mix still translates really well on any headphone. So I don't really worry about it at all. I don't get issues with headphone to monitor mixes either cause of realphones. However if I listen to my realphones setup and it sounds really off without it then I know there's a translation issue but I've not had that yet. The feel of monitors is always going to be different from headphones but remember that headphones has its own feel. Get a good pair of planars and a high quality headphone amp you'll feel your skull rattling with the low end haha Translation is everything. So I still check mixes on crappy monitors and stuff. That's the key to mixing on headphones, is combining the setup and learning with multiple references
Interesting stuff. Just wanted to ask if Topping L30 II sounds better than Topping DX3 Pro+ and built in SSL 2+ hp amp? How would you rate these three?
@@PaulThird Thx for the answer Paul. But would be L30 II an upgrade vs DX3 Pro+? I didn't fully get - "don't rate any of the SSL interfaces" - It means you don't know them to judge how their hp amps sound?
I know how they measure and I know a few guys that have had them and tested them. Emrah tested the SSL and told me that the hp amp audibly colors and distorts the sound when pushing the volume. Pretty much useless for cleanly driving headphones with low sensitivity. If you look at the specs it'll tell you enough. Output impedance of 10 ohms which is decent but not great. You are looking for impedance of 1 ohm as anything above 1-2ohm can impact the frequency response of low ohm dynamic headphones. THD of 0.05% is -66db which is in the audible range and not specifying at what mW/ohm so most likely even higher when pushed which explains Emrah's issue. 100mW max power into 32 ohm is very poor. Toppings e2x2/e4x4 interface has a professional grade hp amp and offers 580mW into 32 ohm. Even toppings £100 dx1 dac amp offers nearly 3 times the power at 32 ohm with 280mW. SSL doesn't have the power to drive planars correctly, nor offer clean power, or guarantee a flat frequency response with low ohm headphones That's why I don't rate ssl interfaces for headphones
@@PaulThird Thx for feather explanation Paul, I appreciate it. Now it's clear to me. So both DX3 Pro + and L30 II are an upgrade vs SSL2+. I already have DX3 Pro+, is its worth to buy an L30 II for mixing purposes? I can't afford RME or DX7 Pro yet;)
Nah dx3 pro+ will give you as much as you need. L30ii in conjuction with dx3 will give you more clean gain but you only need that if you plan on driving something super hungry like dan clarks or something
Cool! I just got the Slate VSX after years of thinking about it.. they are really next level from my earlier setup with Sonarsworks and AKG K550mkII.. next in your setup 😎?
Would you recommend to still get a DAC for mixing if I were to invest in an audio interface like the Rme ufx 3? Or should I invest in a more affordable interface and get Topping's DAC? I am using a scarlet 4i4 with Ananda Nano to mainly record vocals with some instruments atm.
Yup. Headphone amp in the UFX3 is sub par. 200mW at 32ohm isn't the best considering the anandas need a bit of Juice to drive them properly. Plus 0.02% THD is -74db which is audible enough to colour the sound. To put it into context £100 bus powered topping dx1 has a better performing headphone amp with more power and less THD+N
I’ve had enough of hearing distortion in my DT770 80ohms, despite the Zoom Livetrack mixer headphone out being rated 100ohms (no problems at all through my A&H mixer which I use for live). I just bought a Topping L50 to counter this and improve SQ. Glad to see it wasn’t overkill. I bought first, then done my research so good to see we’re on the same page!
I have Audeze LCD-x 2021 which are very easy to drive and i powered them with focusrite scarelet 18i8 2nd gen. From my listening experience it sounds very good. I have custom eq curve when i am listening on them as well as i'm mixing. I do not know am i missing something because not having dac, amp or better interface in terms of sound. Loudness is not a problem. Do you think is it worth to invest more into these setup? Thanks
Believe it or not focusrite headphone amps are one of the exceptions to the rule. 18i8 has a headphone impedance of 1ohm which you'll struggle to find on other interfaces. You can run any headphone on that and tonally not worry about the sound where your lcdx 2021 really wouldn't be reccomended on most other interfaces cause they have a much higher headphone output impedance Dunno how much power it has for hungry planars and high impedance cans though. The DAC is a very big factor. I know cause I've got arguably the best external headphone amp and I can hear differences in DAC whether it be audient, universal audio, presonus. The dx7 pro+ is something I've never heard elsewhere. Maybe it's the ESS sabre chip combined with toppings own dac circuitry.. Not entirely sure but a good DAC can do wonders to what you hear. Interface to interface.. Its subtle until you get into RME universal audio etc
@@PaulThird thank you sir! I have another question. If I run my Apollo twin x line output 3 and 4 into a DAC/amp combo, will I run into an issue? From my understanding the Apollo twin already acts as DAC, however I’ve heard it’s not a very powerful DAC. Will I run into issues if I run a DAC/AMP combo out of my apollo twin x line out 3 and 4 ?
Yes cause you are running a DAC into a DAC but it wouldn't work anyway as the topping DAC amps only have digital inputs purposely to stop what you have suggested Unfortunately your twin x has no optical out so there's no way of connecting it to the topping. Your only option is to buy a headphone amp, not DAC amp if you still want to use the apollo
I have sonarworks reference id4 And dt 990 pro 250 ohm Should i buy scarlet audio Interface or fiio k5 pro ess dac amp???? I use it for music Production
I am running a Topping MXs with and optical feed from my RME hsdpe IO with HD650's (not the 650 "S") and it is the best headphone setup I have ever used, super detailed and super clean, love it! I do want the RME Adiac pro but this Topping is truly amazing for the price. (edit) Just want to add that is use the XLR digi out to my Genelec SAM 8330, if anyone is wondering about RME and is it worth it, my answer would be yes all day and night the flexibility is brilliant. If you are working at home and only recording 1 or 2 inputs get one of the PCIE cards, it is all you need and you can upgrade by adding an adat IO at a later date.
@@PaulThird Yeah, I was looking at them for months, i must have visited audiosciencereview a 1000 times, so much so pressiing "a" in my browser would take me there, 🤣. If anyone is thinking Topping is just audiophile nonsense, you couldn't be more wrong. Just buy one, if you don't like it (unlikely) they hold their value well you wont loose much on a resale.
I own an Audient ID14 mkii presently was thinking of upgrading to an ID44 mkii. But recently I have been thinking of getting an interface with reference grade AD/DA converter so I can mix well. Do you think a Prism Lyra 2 is best for that or what 2 channel DA/AD converter can you recommend
Hi Paul, i’ve got an sennheiser hd650. Its 300 ohms…and its connected to the scarlett 2i2 interface…do i still need an headphone amp to achieve more out of my headphones?
Should be fine frequency response wise as it 1 ohm hp output impedance. Transients wise you'll probably hear a difference with the L30ii though. I can't say for sure cause I've never tried a focusrite but transient response is awesome on the topping
@paul third I mainly mix on my Ollo Audio S4xs. They are very easy to drive. But should I get the Topping L30 ii?? Would I notice a difference that would be worth the investment?? Om
Dunno cause universal audio are strange with their Headphone impedance for whatever reason. They never disclose it even in the manual. All it says in the manual is that it's 150mW going into 300ohm which tells you it wouldnt drive a lot of high impedance headphones like sennheiser and most likely hungry low impedance planars like sundara and audeze. Sennheiser hd 600/ 650 and my sundaras need at least 300mV to properly drive them loud. To put it in comparison, Topping L30 mk2 for example is 600mW into 300 ohm... 3x the power of the opollo!! Its odd that they have hidden their hp output impedance and my guess is that the apollo headphone amp range is higher impedance which I wouldnt suggest using with your 30 ohm ollo's. Can't see any issues with driving them at all with your ollo's as they are a low impedance dynamic BUT my concern is if apollos headphone amp is high like the id44 mk1 which is 50 ohm. I read rumours that it was higher but I can't confirm that. If it is then your low impedance ollos may suffer from frequency deviations so your linearity will be pretty skewed. Less electrical damping can occur which affects the low end and transient response. The only way to tell is to get an l30 mk2 and A/B for yourself. My guess is you may percieve better low end detail and improved transient response.
@@PaulThird Paul, thank you so much for your extremely detailed and thoughtful answer. I really appreciate it! Thank you for investing your time in answering something so specific to me. Be well. Oh, and by the way, have you tried the Ollo S4XS? What do you think of them?
I'd reccomend trying it out and doing A/B's. My topping l30 mk2 is only £140 and measures like no other on audio science review. Worth trying out, especially if you can get a returns policy. I'd check Apos to see if they have that FYI you will need TS to RCA to connect the 2
Thank you! I love your channel. The funny interludes you do during your videos crack me up. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It’s been a big help. Cheers from South Florida!
Hey Paul, I hope you get to see this, please Advice me, I mix on headphones 80% of the time. I've got Audioent ID24, and I've got Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250ohms and Sennheiser HD650. What RME product should I get for better monitoring both on headphones and my Monitors (Adam Audio A7X). Thanks
One of my mentors has been using it for years so absolutely. He just upgraded last week to the new ADI-2 Pro FS. Using them both but the ADI is doing the DAC conversion
@@PaulThird nice! I’ve had my UFX for years now but always wondered if I should upgrade my conversion to something “mastering grade” now that I’m in a legit, commercial studio space. Would you consider the UFX + mastering grade?
Emrah won awards for mixing and mastering through it so I'd say so. However, as I said he did go to the ADI-2 but it's just so he knows for sure he has end game DAC. Got it just to make sure he has top spec of top spec ADI-2 is Amir from audio science reviews personal choice
I'm a bit confused - where does your audio interface fit in the chain? I'm looking at getting a DAC/headphone amp on your recommendation. I just got the Audeze LCD X and using an Axe FX as my audio interface. Would I put the output of the Axe FX into say a DX7 or RME? If so, which one would I use as my audio device on my PC in my DAW? Cheers.
For me the interface is for recording and the dx7 pro+ is for playback. A headphone amp like the l30 mk2 is connected via the line outs of your interface to the rca inputs of topping. My dx7 pro+ is connected via spdif of apollo x6
@@PaulThird Thanks for your reply! So the DAC doesn't connect to the computer, it connects to the interface. I was looking at the dx5 lite which only has USB and SPDIF inputs, so I thought it would have to also be connected to the computer. The Axe FX does have SPDIF outputs but I've never used them. Do you also use active speakers, and in which case where do they plug in, the DX7 or the apollo? Thanks again!
You can use the dx7 pro+ and any of the other DAC's direct from the computer just like an interface but most daws only allow one device to be used at a time so you'd have to swap between dac and interface when mixing and recording. That's why I connect dx7 pro+ to apollo via spdif so I can use both in the daw
@@PaulThird Ah, I see, gotcha. It would be really helpful to see that laid out in a video - what the signal chain is and your workflow. Maybe one for the future, unless you've covered it in another video? Guess I'll subscribe and have a look through! Thanks for being a gent 🙏
Hey Paul the Third, would you say my Topping DX5 is okay for some audio work with a pair of Beyerdynamic DT 900 Pro X ? I see on the ASR reviews that is a bit behind your DX7 Pro..
Hello, Paul! I have Lexicon IO22 and Hifiman Sundara. Thinking about buying a headphone amplifier, Topping L30 maybe, but I still don't quite understand how to connect the line out on the soundcard and RCA on the amplifier, are there any kind of adapters?
www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Neo-Oyaide-dand-RTS-Class-B-1-4TS-to-RCA-1-Metre/1YHN?origin=product-ads&gclid=CjwKCAjw8JKbBhBYEiwAs3sxN5rQjpT6V3bsdsQM9_viZxB4R6oSg0xvPIlzhF1jVF47miO1SQ52YhoCcg0QAvD_BwE Pretty sure thats exactly what I bought. You need to buy a cable separately and it's really simple. Line outs of lexicon into RCA of l30. Set up the routing on your computer as if you are listening to monitors (line out 1-2 for example) and listen through the topping.
Great video, but very confusing to me because of your claims about the new amplifier. I'm currently struggling to understand the differences between amplifiers, and since you already have the same interface as I do (Audient), this gets even more confusing to me, because it makes no sense to me that another amplifier just changes the sound of the headphones. Many people told me that amps have one purpose, to give enough current or power to the headphones, while keeping a flat frequency response. The Audient from what I've read, does that very well. The only thing I know about the interface that might back up your claims is that the Audient headphone output impedance is 22 ohms, so it might color low impedance headphones and might make them sound, tonality wise, worse. But having better details, crisper transients and better imaging? it makes no sense to me, it might be that topping colors the sound differently, and makes you think that the headphones just sounds better. But at the end of day you're using the same headphones, how can it really sound any different? So now I just want to explain my situation: Audient iD4 mk 1, powering DT 770, DT 1990 and Kali LP6 (which you also have) all above 80 ohms To give you an example of how I hear things, my inbuilt PC jack sounds exactly the same to my cheap dongle and to the Audient iD4, the only difference is power, and maybe maybe a tiny bit of distortion with my PC connection. I know sound is subjective, which is why I'm really curious what you think about all of this, maybe I'm getting it all wrong and interfaces compromise on headphone jacks, maybe topping is just insane, or maybe it's just a problem with Audient.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/ There is a lot science involved and various factors that can affect the sound of headphones. The topping is the opposite of coloured. It's as clean and transparent as any headphone amp on the market. You essentially want a headphone amp to have an output impedance of no more than 1-2ohm (Julian Krause says the same). This is because of the way that low ohm dynamic headphones & low ohm IEM's are affected with higher impedance headphone amps. This can cause dampening which affects the frequency response as well as added distortion. A big problem with interface headphone amps is power, and not just high power, high power with low distortion. When you get into the realms of planar magnet headphones and high impedance headphones like Sennheiser HD600, you require an amp that can drive the headphones adequately to the required levels due to many of them having low sensitivity. That's why high power with low distortion is very important. Even IEM's can get pretty noisy through low quality headphone amps. As for transient response the amplifier has to react to transients of the source to be able to amplify them. It's not a power supply, it's an amplifier. Transient response measures how quickly an audio system can respond to changes in sound level. Specifically, it refers to the system's ability to accurately reproduce transients, which are the sudden changes in sound level that occur at the start of a waveform. So if the headphone amp isnt quick enough to react to the initial transient of the waveform then it will result in a softer sound in its amplification. If it's quick enough to react to the analog signal then it should be able to effectively amplify the whole transient. We are dealing with analog sound waves passing through circuitry and if you think of the headphone amp as your bottleneck then it's going to theoretically have an affect on the purity of the signal in the same way you pass a guitar signal through a DI box or a 1073.. its an amplifier at the end of the day and the quality of that circuitry & signal path has a limiting affect of the purity of the original signal, how pure the signal comes out the other end is defined by the signal path of the amplifier. Budget Interfaces normally cant afford or have the space to include a high quality signal path for every headphone. Universal audio told me that themselves. It's a compromise, where a well built headphone amp has no compromise, it's built only to amplify the signal going into a headphone. Its price, size and circuit path reflect that
Totally agree. Upgrading from a focusrite interface to a MOTU Ultralite was for me a big change . I mix 50% on headphones and a better headphone amp helps a loooot.
@@PaulThird so have you ditched interfaces altogether? Or will you run your stack into your interface? I’m considering running a JDS Labs Atom amp into a Motu m2, but this video has me wondering if I should just get an Atom stack for mixing with Sundaras and ditch the m2..
Sundaras have a lower sensitivity so need more juice in order to drive them. Thus why a headphone amp like the L30ii is perfect for all headphones. Even Dan Clark stealth
Hi Paul, I just wanted to know would you still recommend the DX7 pro? I am particularly interested in getting a headphone dac or perhaps a new interface. Have you heard the dac on the Neumann mt48? And if so does it compare to the DX7 pro in your opinion?
I still use dx7 pro+ every day. Ed Thorne then bought one and uses that as his main DAC amp and he has the MT48. Said he prefers the topping over the MT48 for conversion and driving headphones
@@PaulThird thanks so much for the reply. Am wanting to drive Neumann ndh 20’s and Sennheiser hd650’s. Am desperately trying to improve mixing skills and I am not happy with the headphone amp on Apollo twin MK1-mids and highs sound way to harsh. I take note of your recommendations, as you seem to be on the money and I recall you mentioning that particular model a while back and then again most recently with your show with Ed and whilst I am not Scottish I do appreciate the savings on buying the dx7 pro + over the Neumann if it is sonically the better option:-)!! Interesting that Ed prefers this over the Mt48 also!
Hi Paul, I am gonna have to cheap out and for now get the L30 mk2, until my budget allows for dx7 pro,🙂but my question is.....How can I also connect monitors as at the moment as I am having to decide between connecting my monitors to Volt 276 or the L30 mk2 and I would like to do both. What's the best way to do this? As I was following your video and you have come out of monitor outputs into the L30 but I need to connect monitors too. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
From what I can see online they are pretty power hungry so you'll probably need a decent headphone amp to drive them. At the monoprice's price bracket id suggest buying hifiman sundaras as they are much more well known and trusted. That's what I and a big engineer I talk to daily uses and Amir gave them a stellar review as well. I wouldn't personally touch the vrmbox as its really outdated compared to today's standards. Decent headphone amp alongside a good interface would be better or invest in a full DAC/amp combo like I did with the topping dx7 pro+ but there are really good cheaper alternatives like the dx3 pro+, dx5 etc I have a recording setup and a monitoring setup. Both different. As for sienna, don't like it but know many who do. I use realphones for correction and room sims purely for reference and translation. I don't mix through the room sims
@@PaulThird Ciao Paul, I have to choose a headphones for the birthday of my son, mainly for nusic listening but she is already a singer (fourteen years old but many lives and recording, now in the "Casa del Jazz" Junior Orchestra in Rome) and would like to approach to the home recoding. Esi extra10 (included realphones esi edition) could be a good option to start, also for music listenig, ? or better to start with something better. Wich amp ? Actually she has a Steinberg MI4 as soundcard with headphone amp. For me in the future I would like to pass to a good headphone amp with spdfif input (coax or optical), not more of 200,00 €, wich one ? Have a great music
For recording purposes better off with closed back headphones to reduce leakage in the recordings. In regards to a headphone amp at £200 working with spdiff or coax.. I'm unsure at that price. I think all the topping headphone amps use RCA
@@PaulThird she already has a commercial wireless closed back headphones usable for tracking, setting in recording a low cpu eq and reverb in realtime it's enough for a good vocal performance, I was thinking about open or semiopen models... 🙂
Open back.. Cant go wrong with sundaras. Best value for money in my personal opinion. An engineer I trust had LCD-X and ditched them for the sundaras. Slight difference but he preferred the sundaras
Hey, could you explain the full path you use for headphones and how you connect it all ? You go from an audio interface to the topping dx7 pro, right ? Thanks a lot !
@@PaulThird Well, I'm listening through the Phonitor One now ! You were absolutely right about the level up in sound quality, Paul. Thank you for getting me in the right path ..
Appreciate the wonderfully detailed info that sheds light on some brand quality. I do want to add: let's not normalize mixing on headphones. Headphones are excellent for analyzing the stereo field in the listener's headphone experience. And multiple headphones allow you to test your mix in different brands. But there is no brand of headphones that should be used as a mixing tool to balance audio. For linearity, for high quality service in mixing and mastering, we rely on monitors.
That's not true I know tons of professional engineers mixing on headphones successfully. One in particular is one of the biggest engineers in Turkey getting millions of streams using sundaras and RME
@@PaulThird it is true. Monitors are simply the correct choice over headphones, and headphones should be used when necessary. There is no pair of headphones that outranks a pair of quality monitors in mixing. But as you say, there are many successful engineers using headphones. I doubt they are using headphones alone. All mixes are finalized in monitors. If you insist, I would love to know who this monitor-less big engineer in Turkey is, and listen to the mixes. If they sound that good, I will color myself impressed. Not trying to be a sourpuss here; I do care about new engineers learning the craft, and I always discourage the normalization of headphones usage because they are inaccurate relative to monitors. As as sidenote, every headphones discussion should include a warning for new users about the potential damage and hearing loss to your ears. There are going to be a lot of damaged ears in 20 years; as coaches in engineering we should help new engineers avoid that.
@@PaulThird can't find songs just a lot of educational content about various products. Anyway don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of your work and I love your content, so thank you for your tremendous hard work in creating all these videos. Just putting my fine point on an issue I'm passionate about. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Honored to hear from you.
When released in September dx7 pro+ had the best SINAD (THD+N) of any DAC measured on audio science review. We are splitting hairs though cause the dx7 pro DAC measures -119db THD+N which means it has 15db less noise and distortion than the DAC of an audient id44. -123db THD+N of dx7 pro+ is still in reality a 4db improvement of a measurement that was already more than anybody would need from a DAC. However, the Dx7 pro Headphone amp has an output impedance of 6 ohm which can affect linearity in headphones under 60 ohm. Not advisable for a lot of planars (audeze, hifiman etc). Dx7 pro+ has virtually a zero headphone output impedance which is awesome. The dx7 pro+ is basically the best that topping can offer using the best converter chips and their own circuitry. Refined everything and corrected every issue in dx7 pro. Perfect linearity. No ESS IMD hump, jitter is that low its practically unmeasurable. In Amir's own words. A guy that's properly tested practically every high grade DAC and amp on the market. "impeccable performance for a DAC" The pro+ headohone amp has the same signal to noise ratio as the RME ADI 2, incredibly low noise and distortion and it doesn't clip at 32 & 300 ohm so if you hear any distortion it's the headphone, not the amp. The dx7 pro+ is basically end game for a DAC/AMP.
@@PaulThird you are the man! Thank you for taking the time to respond and clearly explain all of this!! I was extremely happy with my pro until I read this 🤣🤣 I still am but every little bit helps! Cheers!
@@PaulThird As I'm a "tight arse" as well (LOL), I'm trying to check if I'd have an improvement cause (you know better than me) the words "headroom" and "sound stage" are triggers in my head to "I'LL FCKING BUY IT". Here's the info in the UFX manual. DA - Stereo Monitor Output Phones (9-12) As DA, but: • Output: 6.3 mm TRS stereo jack, unbalanced • Maximum output level at 0 dBFS, High: +17 dBu • Maximum output level at 0 dBFS, Low: +2 dBV • Output impedance: 30 Ohm
I remember when I bought the Universal Audio Twin Quad, the headphone output was so low on volume that I returned that sh**. My RME UFX, despite being old, is an absolute beast and one of the pieces I love the most on my rack.
Tom i took your advice and tried a thx 589 and wow .and i hav an expensive interface. Night an day... question...if you had to choose. Sundara or Hd560s headphones. Which one you think is best?
Went from a Scarlett 2i2 (2nd Gen) - driving MM-500, LCD-X and HD650 - to a Topping DX7 Pro + . . . made zero difference (at least to me), I'm sure there is difference, all the numbers are telling me it's better, but I honestly can't hear it . . . it's a nice bit of gear regardless and gets used, but if you swapped between the Scarlett and the topping I really wouldn't notice anything had changed.
You must listen too quiet then as the Scarlett 2i2 2nd gen only outputs around 40-50mW @ 32 ohm. Even the topping e2x2 interface provides 580mW @ 32 ohm. More than 10 times the power. Dx7 pro+ is 1.8W into 32 ohm!! Scarlett 2i2 2nd gen only provides 15mW at 200 ohm. E2x2 is 105mW @ 300 ohm which is higher impedance. Topping is like 700mW @ 300 ohm or something So after knowing that you have MM-500, LCD-X and HD650 which are hungry headphones and require adequately powered I can only assume that you listen very quiet which isn't going to allow to hear the difference. You should be listening around 80-85db spl (c weighted) HD650 is 300 ohm. Be lucky if 2nd gen is outputing 10mW at 300 ohm. You should really need to have the scarlet hp amp completely cranked all the time and I still don't think it'll be outputing 80-85db spl
Hi Paul! You had a chance to A/B test in real time , the headphones straight into audio interface versus headphones into Headphones amp + DAC? I'm interested on how much in percentage can you evaluate the change between them ? Starting to mix on various locations a couple of years ago, I ran some A/B tests between different interfaces, headphones amps and DACs (mid priced vs more expensive) and there was not more than....I would say, 2-3 % difference. In the end I settled to Aplollo Twin + Beyerdynamic DT 880 - 32 ohm (no headphone amp or DAC needed) as the best option, price vs increase in quality.
I was that anal about it all, every time I recorded the headphones through my mic to ensure that each setup was at the same level for the AB's. Then I'd have to unplug and listen each time. I don't have a splitter so it was genuinely quick in and out. At the end of the day when it's level matched as close as you can get and you can physically pick out more details in one compared to the other it's an easy test. The seperation is the easiest thing to pick out through the dx7 pro+. Backing vocals especially. I listened to various mixes and I just had more detail. Better transient response, more low end detail where I could hear the notes slightly clearer with more punch from the kick. Going back to the id44 and l30mk2 felt narrower with less seperation and going back to just the id44 headphone amp on its own was even narrower with way less detail, way less transients and almost like a thin film over it masking the details. Hard to describe. Could be that I'm using planar headphones which aren't suited to a 50 ohm headphone amp and relatively known to be harder to drive than most dynamics. So when using the l30mk2 with it which is under 1ohm and more gain than I could ever want then it's obvious there is gonna be a difference due to less electrical damping and less deviations in frequency response, as well as less distortion. You can't drive a lot of planar headphones to loud levels using most audio interface headphone amps as they have such a low sensitivity, as do your really high impedance dynamic cans. So my headphones and headphone amp are the 2 main reasons why it's so easy to tell the difference. If I was to use your 32 ohm beyerdynamics would I still hear a difference in the id44. Yes cause its 50ohm going into a 32ohm but with a modern id14 mk2 22ohm maybe not as much of a difference. Your beyers are low ohm dynamics and way more sensitive than a planar and can be driven by near enough anything, that's why those beyers are super consumer based as they are so flexible. Would my sundaras suffer the same fate through the apollo twin x? gonna say yes as UA have purposely been very shady in revealing their headphone output impedance. Even in the manual which isn't a good sign for a planar user like me. For example my sundaras require 318mv for 94dbspl which is inbetween sennheiser hd650 & 600. So a near perfectly clean and superbly linear 1ohm powerful headphone amp is always gonna have a big difference with a low ohm power hungry planar headphone which also has faster transient response than a dynamic headphone as well as less distortion and more low end extension. That's why i hear a massive jump in transients and also hear the l30 l30mk2 as cleaner compared to the id44 headphone amp. In regards to the DAC difference we are then comparing toppings flagship converter to a consumer grade DAC chip. Comparing a DAC that measures better than any on audio science review. The best SINAD as well as a textbook perfect linear frequency response, and a choice of anti aliasing filters so you can avoid any ringing. Almost zero output impedance with extremely low noise and distortion. With the id44/l30 mk2 combo you are dealing with a signal being output from the line outs of the audient which in itself has a sound, then into a headphone amp, so not the purest of signals. The topping dx7 pro+ on its own was an easy win vs a budget audio interface & headphone amp combo. I didn't think the differences in converters and circuitry would play such a big role but I now get that's why people have paid so much for RME in the past when the conversion is that good. I'm gonna test it out in the new year with Ed as he's using UA in his set up and he's considering audeze headphones so we are gonna test the l30 mk2 with his twin and x8p as I don't think he'll want to invest in a seperate DAC.
@@PaulThird super cool and detailed story, thanks Paul :). In all of this business it's important that everyone feels okay with decisions when it comes to hear details when mixing. My journey was much simpler, I just decided that the difference is too small to justify the price increase, and also watching other professionals about how they're mixing/mastering on headphones.
Hi Paul, just updated my setup with a ADI-2 DAC FS from an M-AUDIO AIR and the difference is BIG. The details, the power without distortion, so good. I also purchased a MINIDSP E.A.R.S. to calibrate my ATH M50X with ADI-2 equalizer instead of using sonarworks...so much better. It's a winning couple. You can also EQ left and right separately, which is the best because my M50X freq response is different from left to right. Now waiting for my LCD-XC to complete my upgrade.
Hey Paul, would there really be a noticeable difference between my motu m4 and hooking a topping l30 or l50?, I have senns HD 6XX, love em', and i have experienced what you're talking about mixing and listening fairly loud, personally prefer the 83 db mark and yes they respond really well compared to my kali lp6 mk2 (I personally think those headphones are meant to be heard loud, as they are somewhat dark). Kali's are really clean compared to a pair of jbl's I had, lots of headroom, in fact, with them I understood what clean headroom means (you can crank them and they still sound clean). This is the thing I'm wondering with my headphones, if headroom from the motu preamp is holding em' from being cleaner, and as reviews says they scale well with good preamps... Would that be a good investment then?
Try the L30ii with the motu first. If your not hearing the difference in transients and linearity then give a dac amp like a topping dx3 pro+ or dx5 a try. Or get the flagship dx7 pro+ like me then you'll truly hear a difference I've still to have anybody come back to me and say that they weren't impressed with the L30ii in comparison to their interface hp amp. Id try the L30ii first and see how the motu DAC fairs
@@PaulThird Yes, even tho I have read that motu's M2/M4 hp preamp is good (or one of the best for the price point) and DAC converters are ESS sabre (which I think is great), but yeh I think a stand alone preamp for what my sennheisers are would be noticeble for power and headroom. Btw any real difference between L30ii vs L50?, or too close to tell and better go with L30ii. Does L50 balance input makes anything different? (can't find more reasons between them)
L30ii is like top of the tree. Anything better than that is purely specs for the sake of numbers. L30ii can do everything you would ever need from a headphone amp
Hi Paul, enjoying your channel. As a fellow Scots tight a*** I tried for ages to squeeze good results out if cheap gear (with some success) but during the pandemic when I stepped up my home recording I got increasingly frustrated with how my mixes transferred outside of my studio. After trying a more modern interface with a good reputation for DA conversion (which wasn’t cheap) but didn’t get on with my computer. I ended doing the same as you and (using finance) I upgraded to the RME Fireface UCXII interface you pictured plus some Adam monitors. It was an expensive outlay but the difference in terms of what I can hear in my mixes and the transparency of the conversion is night and day. My conclusion is that with patience and a lot of referencing and moving your mix round different audio systems you can definitely get good results but it is so much easier and efficient to be able to hear issues straight away as you can with better gear. Keep up the good content, much appreciated!
My experience is the same. I did my first mix this week listening at 80-85db with the dx7 pro+ using the least amount of plugins I've ever used and my mastering engineers told me that the mix I produced was such a big improvement, even from the mix I made fixing my tilt
Hello. I would like to ask you as a professional... My set of audio recordings is LCD GX +Apogee Duet 2 + Realphones, I also have an Audient iD 4, and I compared how the headphones sound with other audio interfaces. In my opinion, the Apogee sounds shriller and cleaner and funnier... But, I am not a professional, but you are a person trusted by 20,000 subscribers and I would like to ask you for advice on mixing in headphones. I haven't gotten used to the sound yet, as I bought my setup a week ago... Do I need to look for another audio interface or is Apogee Duet a good choice?
I would say go for another interface. Output impedance is 30 ohm which is high and the specs are super vague. Combine the 2.. never a good sign but It's a 12 year old interface tbf so I wouldnt be expecting high quality headphone performance anyway. Even your prisms and auroras had shit headphone amps. I would personally either get a headphone amp or a new interface
@@PaulThird thanks for the answer. can you tell me which headphone amplifier I can consider for mixing for no more than 300 £… It would be desirable that I could hear the difference in sound between this amplifier and Duet 2... :)
Do I also need a DAC from Topping? Or can I take the signal from the Apogee duet and feed it to the Topping L30? That is, if I understand correctly, the DAC in Apogee is quite good and the problem is only in the headphone amplifier, which in Apogee has too high an impedance?
Could you do a quick vid about how to actually use the Topping L30II? I would either be using it with an audio interface (apollo) or straight from laptop... I can't find any instructions anywhere online about this. Do you need a separate DAC or does the L30II have a DAC in it??
I'm gonna say yes, purely because there arent many DAC/headphone amp combos that measure as good as the dx7 pro+ or RME. But that's my guess regarding an apollo, not an actual tested opinion BUT I do plan on testing that out with Ed early in the year when I go to London
I have a Clarett+ 2Pre and a set of Neumann NDH-30 phones. Upgrading from Scarlett 2i2. Do I really need a headphone amp as well? Which would blow the Clarett away?
Hi Paul, I understand the recording setup and the mixing setup, but since I use only samples libraries ,could I use the mixing setup all the time? Thank you for the great work you do.
@@PaulThird Sold. My latest track won a special prize on Hofa competition and was played live on BBC radio,if I can improve my skill with this setup then lets try. All the best.
@@PaulThird got the amp Paul, a bit concerned about loosing audio quality for conecting a balanced out to an unbalanced amp, did you noticed any problems with ur setup? Thank you once again.
Dx7 pro+ measures the best. It's the only DAC on audio science review that measures better than RME. If I was gonna invest in the topping range then I was gonna get the best. Dx3 pro+ is let down by its headphone amp as it doesn't really like low impedance phones which for guys like me with sundaras, wouldn't really be great www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx3-pro-review-dac-headphone-amp.27148/ Check it out for yourself. Measures extremely well. DAC SINAD is still very good and measures same as apollo x16 but its still not the full package when compared to dx7 pro+. Dx7 pro+ is pound for pound the best value in my personal opinion. Dx7 pro+ shatters all their records and as a full DAC/headphone amp combo.. Its pretty hard to beat. I know RME guys that are having a glance haha But it is still arguably pushing into the realm of finite details but if I'm gonna be sticking to headphones then I want to ensure I've got the best. I've not heard a DAC as good as the dx7 pro+. They put their own converter circuit in it and honestly even the apollo x6 with the l30 mk2 can't give me the detail and seperation of the dx7 pro+. I spent at least 2 hours just comparing back and forth haha
Good video, Paul. It’s the same conclusion I’ve arrived at. Have you ever read Nwavguy’s site? He details the creation of his odac and O2 amp. Audeze headphones are something I always found strange when I’ve heard them. I’ve heard some electrostat setups at Axpona that were great but I only liked them maybe 5% more than using the Nwavguy stuff with a K701. There was some RME interface that measured about as well or better than the Hilo. Great to see you posting the data about impedance. These companies could all just try to integrate the O2 approach so low and high impedance phones will work well. Instead they don’t usually bother to tell us much of anything about the headphone section. You’re doing everyone a big favor with the advice you gave here.
You can do it with your phone and a db app but I've got an SPL meter coming tomorrow so I'm gonna see if the phone method is off by much but it gets you in the ball park
Can you not just use an Apollo interface to run your headphones through? Also what are the best headphones for mixing you would recommend? I was looking at dt700 pro x and also focal clear mg pro I also seen a guy recommend hifiman sundara
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/universal-audio-apollo-twin-x-review-audio-interface.20456/ Dunno if it's good enough tbh. Maybe they sorted out the IMD hump in newer twin models 🤷♂️ I use sundaras as they were reccomended by one of my mentors who is arguably the biggest mix and mastering engineer in Turkey. He tried LCD-X and compared sundaras and preferred the hifiman. I have no complaints regarding the sundaras but they do need a bit of juice to power them to loud levels so just ensure whatever your listening through has the juice and ideally an output impedance of no more than 2 ohms
@@PaulThird I’ve always heard good reviews n seen them in a lot of studios so always thought I’d cop them but this video was good insight into some other options. Yeah I was thinking with the dt 700 pro x would be good also as they don’t need a big boost to run them apparently can use most audio interfaces but that is interesting that he recommended the sundaras I tried looking on TH-cam for some reviews in a mix mastering context but couldn’t find much. Was a video on TH-cam that informed me on them though.
Dx7 pro+ is a DAC + amp. Purely deals with the final digital to analog conversion, so the conversion from your daw/computer to your speakers/headphones. Nothing to do with recording as that is ADC. You can link it to other interfaces if they can send the digital signal via optical/coaxial spdif so you can use their ADC, mixer software and convert the digital signal anc output with the DAC/amp I've not found any DAC/amp as good as the dx7 pro+ and I've even compared it to the apollo x6 with the topping l30 mk2. If you want the full package then unfortunately I can only advise a pretty expensive option in the RME but it is pretty much the full package in regards to ADC, DAC & headphone amp quality in one interface. If you want the plugin dsp and unison preamps then an apollo twin in conjunction with an L30ii would be a pretty good shout. The apollo headphone amps aren't great but their ADC & DAC is very high quality.
Is getting a good pair of headphones together with the topping L30ii and Presonus Revelator io24 good enough to start mixing on headphones? I had quiet a few difficulties understanding everything in context that was mentioned in the video since im fairly new to this topic. This gear will replace a high end soundcard from what gathered now, is this correct? Or is a good external soundcard still needed and the earlier mentioned gear is putting in some extra work in that chain?
@@PaulThird Thanks for the quick response, it warms my heart to get that info. Do you have any recommendations for the audio interface if its only for monetoring with headphones?
sooo. I also can just buy a RME Interface like ( RME Fireface UCX II) ? and dont use a Headphone amp? for like the Audeze mm 500?... / how can i measure how loud my Headhpones are? is it only possible with the Topping DX7? .. sorry iam pretty new to the Mixing on Headphones stuff
If you want the best possible outcome for your current interface, buy a topping l30ii, if you want the best outcome as a one stop shop, buy the topping dx7 pro+ or RME ADI 2 pro FS. If you want to measure loudness of headphones, place an SPL meter in between the cups as a rough guide
I'd say a better option would be to get a topping dx3 pro+ and connect it to focusrite spdif out. So go coax in of topping to coax spdif out of focusrite. That way you can use the amp and the DAC via digital connection and still use your focusrite. L30ii will only give you access to the amp and rely on the focusrite DAC as a bottleneck
@@PaulThird thanks for sharing your knowledge :) okay i will check this stuff out. i also will sell the most of my Headphones, i think i just will keep the HD 650.. Wich Hifiman should i buy for mixing/ muik making? because the audeze are freaking horrible in price. HifiMAN Sundara?
@@PaulThird Check them if You Can, Amazing. Giancarlo from AA said me that they are the best. I don't know if they are the best but for sure they are Amazing
IMPORTANT.. MUST READ
Whilst I thought I was keeping things purposely simple I'm getting comments regarding impedance. So to be clear. I'm not saying high impedance headphones can be easier driven than low impedance headphones. The discussion was originally about planars and dynamics but it was a bit too long winded so I cut it out. Heres what I took out the original edit as it was originally too long.
"ohm + sensitivity relation is important. Just because a headphone is low ohm does not mean you can drive it easily and vice versa. It's all about how much MW is required to drive a headphone to highest level."
I spoke about planar headphones especially because it's important to know that on the most part they require a lot more juice to power, for example, even though my sundaras are 30 ohm they require 314mv at 94dbspl which is inbetween HD 650 & 600 sennheisers!) and it also isn't reccomended to use a high impedance headphone amp with low impedance headphones as this can result in power issues and also lots of frequency related problems.
WHY DOES OUTPUT IMPEDANCE MATTER? It matters for at least three reasons:
The greater the output impedance the greater the voltage drop with lower impedance loads. This drop can be large to enough to prevent driving low impedance headphones to sufficiently loud levels. A real world example is the Behringer UCA202 with a 50 ohm output impedance. It struggles with some 16 - 32 ohm headphones.
Headphone impedance changes with frequency. If the output impedance is much above zero this means the voltage delivered to the headphones will also change with frequency. The greater the output impedance, the greater the frequency response deviations. Different headphones will interact in different, and typically unpredictable, ways with the source. Sometimes these variations can be large and plainly audible.
As output impedance increases electrical damping is reduced. The bass performance of the headphones, as designed by the manufacture, may be audibly compromised if there’s insufficient damping. The bass might become more “boomy” and less controlled. The transient response becomes worse and the deep bass performance is compromised (the headphones will roll off sooner at low frequencies). A few, such as those who like a very warm “tube like” sound, might enjoy this sort of under damped bass. But it’s almost always less accurate compared to using a low impedance source.
I just massively simplified that in my video. So just ensure you have a headphone amp with an impedance ideally of no more than 2 ohms and do your research.
Also for those looking for the scientific back up and research carried out by others, here is Amir's review of my topping dx7 pro+ on audio science review.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx7-pro-review-dac-hp-amp.36978/
Honestly check out the rest of his reviews.. Valuable resource for the community. Don't go to sound on sound or any other paid advertising sites.. This is the right address!!
Also here are some links for some of the product's mentioned (yes they are affiliate links.. Best I could get as I can't get them to send any gear my way 🤣)
Presonus Revelator io24 audio interface
www.thomann.de/gb/presonus_revelator_io24.htm?partner_id=94442
Topping L30 mk2
apos.audio/products/topping-l30-ii-headphone-amp?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Hifiman Sundara planar headphones
apos.audio/products/hifiman-sundara-planar-magnetic-headphones?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Topping DX7 pro+
apos.audio/products/topping-dx7-pro-dac-amp-apos-certified?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Audeze LCD-X
apos.audio/products/audeze-lcd-x-open-back-headphone?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Does the TOPPING DX7 Pro+ have ASIO drivers?
It installed its own drivers on windows as soon as I plugged it in. Outside the daw I just select it in the windows speaker selection, In the daw I use the ASIO driver I had installed already
I’ve never heard of this website before, thanks for sharing!
It's DAC so it's not an issue
Thanks Paul - you keep costing me money. But I now have an L30 and an E30 and you are so right - what a difference in clarity!
I'm still confused on the 80dB SPL listening level and how to measure that? In another video you mentioned 'gain staging' your monitoring path but I'm not sure how to do this.
Currently I have the E30 set to 0dB output, L30 output gain at 0dB and driving Sennheiser HD650s so that they're loud but not threshold of pain. I'm also using iRealphones for crosstalk and (I assume) Harman curve with HD-650 model loaded.
Am I missing anything?
Another question - if my DAW session is 48k/24bit is there any point in setting the E30 to higher resolution?
Appreciating your candid content.
Regarding listening levels… In the very early part of balancing a mix, like balancing the kick/bass etc., i do turn down to where you can barely hear it. At that level, things completely disappear, and just above that level, you can hear clearly how main elements are sitting with one another. It’s super helpful. Once i have very basic balance, then it’s time to turn it up to proper level. Every once in a while checking loud and soft. I find i get the best results keeping at a good level, but occasionally turning wayyy down and up a little, briefly. And then, take breaks! Let your ears and brain reset.
🤓🤓
I do a combo of mixing on headphones and mixing on speakers. I'm trying to lean more into headphones as my room is problematic to say the least and following watching this video I realise that I was listening too low on cans. I have a level that I like to mix at on monitors and I thought that if I was mixing on headphones then I should have them "feel" as loud as monitors. But after watching this I cranked my headphones when I was working and that alone was a game changer. I know "we perceive louder as better" but it's not that, the louder volume made the problems in the mix more apparent, masking etc. To Paul's line about "you can't mix what you can't hear" because of distortion etc from your crappy headphone amp or DAC "you also can't mix what you can't hear if you've got your cans down too low to hear where the problems are."
Thanks very much Paul, I've a track to car test later after working on it at a higher level over the weekend and I'm hopeful that it's closer to being done than it's ever been.
also paul, if I have your attention. I was kicking the tyres on the topping headphone amp you recommended and they were also trying to sell me on their E 30 II DAC, any opinions on that unit? I'd be hopeful that it'd work as well as the DAC on the DX7 pro as I've no need for pres and TBH I wouldn't be willing to make that kind of investment at this stage.
My first mix listening loud was a big improvement. Explains a lot why I was adding in so much low end before. Pushing yourself to get as close to the flattest Fletcher munson curve is a big thing for mixing. I'm still trying to get my head round the fact that our ears are essentially a 2500 band multiband compressor.. Crazy 🤯
@@PaulThird I think that's a big part of it. This particular song I'm trying to pitch the tonal balance in between 2 references. And I kept struggling to figure out why it sounded so bad when I bounced it out to try it elsewhere despite being happy with it in my room. When I turned the volume up I quickly realised that I'd actually mixed it to be darker than the darker of the 2 tracks I was trying to get in between
It gets me everytime. Turn the mix up loud, it falls apart. Bane of my life right now
It was an adjustment I had to get used to. I mixed very quiet before
I have a 2 day old baby chicken 🐔 whose mother got taken by a fox all 7 siblings also died. The only way I calmed it down was to put pair of headphones next to it with your soothing voice from this video on repeat. It fell asleep and rested for a couple of hours. BTW the chic didn't care that it was coming out of a cheap DA.
My voice doesn't need an expensive DAC 😜😜 hahaha
@@PaulThird 😪Sadly...the baby chic died...if only I invested in a high-end DA, I could be having scrambled eggs.
What headphones were they?
@@housebrigade Sennheiser HD280.
@@PaulThird I finally got an expensive DAC and things are so clear. I finally heard your voice clearly enough that now I can confidently rule out that you speak in an Australian accent.
Thanks, Paul. As a God Mode sound designer and producer I don't need to mix and master my perfect tracks. Mage! Mage, wake up! You're dreaming again. 😄
We can all dream 🤣
Came back to say I just upgraded to RME ADI-2 with Audeze LCD-X and, well, after a week or so adjusting, I am extremely grateful for your advice, and effectively showing me where my weak link in the chain is.
If you have a consumer interface with spdif or optical out, do yourself a favour, you will never look back.
I’m not sure how to measure 85dbspl on a pair of headphones… but if i set my speakers at 85db with a spl meter. And then try to match the level on my headphones, my brain is melting. Even on speakers, 85db is brain meltingly loud. I always try to change levels all the time. I have a stream deck hooked up to my rme ufx ii and have different snapshots set at different levels. 0, -6 and -25 db. I do most of my mixing at -6. That is roughly 75dbspl. Snapshots for different eq curves too. One ”hifi bad” with a huge shelf boost starting at 2k and nothing below 80hz. And one that sounds like my car. You really should get yourself a rme card. It improved my workflow many times the money i spent buying it. And it sounds great too. ;)
Feels loud to me as well but I've got used to it now. After reading mixing engineers handbook I knew the 80-85db thing was actually true.
I used a db app on my phone and just stuck the microphone in the cups haha not ideal but it's a ball park.
I then bought an SPL meter to make sure and the phone mic was off by 3-5 db which isn't massive but enough to justify the £30 for the meter
Ladies and gentleman, I’ve just subscribed to this channel. My life will never be the same.
🤓🤓
Good video Paul. Which headphones are you mixing in? The Audeze? I’m struggling to decide which to go for
Hifiman sundara
@@PaulThird thanks for your reply. Cool you use these over the high end headphones/focal/audeze??
Sundaras are high end, they just don't cost as much as focals and audeze.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hifiman-sundara-review-headphone.22529/
My mentor had lcdx and compared to sundara. Ditched audeze and uses sundara every day
@@PaulThird thanks, ok so I guess EQing the headphone amp is necessary with these
With any headphone tbh. They all need correction of some sort
Hey Paul! Just found out your channel and already subscribed. Great content!
I am wondering if you are still using the L30 II with the DX7, or is the hp amp on the DX7 the same as the L30 or better?
Cheers!
I just use the dx7 pro+. L30ii is being used in the atmos room for binaural
Great vid Paul! How do you have the Topping DX7 Pro+ setup in Studio One?
Do you have that setup as the main driver in the settings or are you using the revelators drivers and somehow connecting to the DX7 Pro+? And are you then going out of the DX7 Pro+ into the L30 m2?
Sorry for the confusion but I was looking at the RME too and seeing you do this... I've got the duck thing going on at the moment too until big grandma duck drops the golden egg ;)
And do you have the option to hook up monitors if you wanted to or are all your outputs taken up?
I use ASIO in studio one and the dx7 driver outside of the daw
@@PaulThird thank you
Hey Paul, awesome tips! I'm slowly upgrading my headphone setup for production/mixing. Might be a dumb question, but do these Topping DACs have any more latency than pro audio interfaces?
Latency is something to worry about when recording as its a full round trip. ADC picking up the signal and then being converted to digital, and then transferred back to analog in the DAC so you can hear it.
Using a DAC is just purely for monitoring purposes so just digital to analog conversion. That's why you would need a seperate interface for recording.
I have a recording setup and a mixing setup that I switch between.
Alternatively if you want the best of both worlds in one package then an RME interface like UCX ii would be your best shout but you'll pay slightly more dependent on how many pre's you need.
My whole recording and monitoring set up costs around £950 where a 2 channel RME ucx ii costs around £1200. Can be argued you'd be may as well paying the extra for the RME as the ADC side is better spec but I like the revelator pre's and the real time DSP uses presonus fat channel which includes their high quality emus like 1176, la2a, pultec, gate, etc which has become pretty invaluable for my situation for recording the podcast, zoom calls, live stuff etc etc
So it really comes down to your specific situation and what you can afford
@@PaulThird Thanks man! My headphone setup right now consists of an Apogee Duet (ipad/mac version) feeding a Subpac S2 from the headphone out and a Topping L30 (mk1 late serial) from the line out, with a Focal Elex plugged into that. Looking at ASR tests, the Duet could be the weakest link in the chain atm, and I feel like what you're saying in your video kinda supports that theory for me. So I'm thinking I should probably get one of those great measuring cheaper Topping DACs for monitoring as a logical next step, and keep the Apogee for recording, like you did. Or should I get rid of the L30 and go balanced with a DX7, is the upgrade to balanced worth the difference? The Elex came with a balanced cable as well.
Btw for long hours of production and just pleasure listening I love the waves nx abbey road plugin with the head tracker with this setup (at 96k). I lose a little bit of detail, but I get a very deep and holographic stereo image especially on the main monitors that to my ears I can't find in other room sim plugins so far. Some say the tracker is a gimmick, but I can actually work longer when I have it on. I just bypass the plugin when I need the intimate and insane detail of the Elex, but I spend most of my time on the nearfields or mains so I don't get ear fatigue. I've rolled the bass off so it evenly fades into the visceral lows of the Subpac, which gets a separate clean signal. Loving this setup going 2 years now.
The DAC is a huge part of what you are hearing. I didn't think I'd hear much difference going from the id44/l30 mk2 combo to the dx7 pro+ but it actually makes a lot of sense as it's proper DAC where the l30 mk2 is being fed the signal from the audient line outs which imparts its own sound.
Just a purer signal with the dx7 pro+ but the converters also play a big role as they are using ESS SABRE ES9038PRO chipset which is their flagship. Those chips get used a lot for home theatre use and stuff.
And also its really high quality 24 bit Bluetooth transition as well which I've still not even tested haha
Ive been mixing thru headphones using the Audioquest Dragonfly. For years its been my go-to DAC and headphone amp. The difference of that DAC/amp to other audio interface is literally NIGHT & DAY. It was a good investment for me instead of buying budget(to mid-tier) audio interfaces. Accurate listening in headphones is very crucial. Cheers! 🙂🙂
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Hi Jess. I'm looking at getting a headphone amp and noticed the Audioquest Dragonfly have the bonus of being very small! Do you recommend a particular model? Also, does the fact that they are USB increase the CPU usage? (as opposed to thunderbolt/ USB-C)
@@evanmcgregor3758 HI! Im using Dragonfly Black 1.5. to my knowledge it doesn't consume any CPU usage. its a plug-and-play USB. No drivers needed. Cheers! 😄
Hey man i am mixing on headphones and plan to do so for the next few years at least. I agree with you on everything but I dont want to have different devices for each component in the chain, something compact is what I look for. Do you think RME Fireface latest version covers everything perfectly, AD/DA, headphone amp?
Yeah. Can't go wrong with a top line RME for an all round interface. Very good investment
80 dB is quite loud for your ears, for some time of exposure.....85 dB start to do damage your ears clearly, and fast ;)
Nah not really. You can mix 16 hours at 80db spl. 8 hours straight at 85db spl. Theres been enough scientific tests done to show that.
If that's loud you should go into some studios haha there are some pros that listen as loud as 90-95db and 80-85db is their conversation level 😅
Reading mixing engineers handbook opened my eyes quite a bit.
In the end its all about taking regular breaks and not exposing your ears for long listening at any level. Your perception and judgement can lost pretty quick so if you are pacing yourself then 80-85db will be a breeze.
The human ear is a very fascinating part of the human body and protects itself more than you think. Theres a great AES lecture all about it
ok Paul, that s good to know. Thanks for your clarification. Anyway, I tend not to go louder than 80dBs, even with guitar amps . Loved the video man, as usual. Keep it up, thank you ;)❤
Hi Paul, just out of interest, are you using correction software on your headphones? Whats your view on it?
I use realphones correction which is based more on the harman curve
Nice tips!, my mixes got way better when I started to use headphones.. but as always.. using references all the time... and I think its very important to know the frequencies your headphone pulls down.. or pump up... it can helps us to do less mistakes...
Yup. Learning your headphones takes a while
Very informative vid! Looking at specs alone the motu m2 interface seems to have the best specs for its price range. How would this compare in sound quality (headphones) to a RME do you think? I have the audient id14 and was thinking of upgrading to the motu for its headphone capability. Worth it?
I can't see it sounding better. There are only a handful of interfaces that deliver high quality headphone amps with enough clean linear power to sufficiently drive hungry planars and many high impedance cans
To put it into context. It's like £200 which isn't shaving the arse off the price of a topping l30 mk2 which is just a headphone amp haha
@@PaulThird thanks! What would be a noticeable upgrade for me? I guess I can connect the headphone up to interface? Id14?
Yeah the topping l30ii connects to interface line outs so you'd need TS to RCA cables
Amazing content. Although I love using my Audient id44 for tracking, I needed a set of headphones that work well for mixing., so, I purchased the Neumann NDH 30. Now I need a headphone amp that is worthy for theNDH30. I'm guessing the Topping will be a decent choice. What is the suggested method for integrating the Topping to my DAW (Reaper)? Cheers.
Depends if it's a topping DAC or amp
@@PaulThird Well, I think you sold me on the Topping DX7 Pro+. I'm not exactly sure how to connect it to the id44... I'm guessing the preferred connection should be the id44 optical out to the Topping DX7 Pro+ optical in. Also considering your suggestion for the Goodhertz can opener for crosstalk. Any additional suggestions? cheers.
Optical out of id44 (set that specific optical out in ID software as Spdif) you will need to set your daw to output to that corresponding adat
First of all happy christmas to you and your family.
second - I have a second gen scarlett 18i20, the thd is worse than the topping, but it's the same on the line outs as the headphone amp, wouldn't that be the weakest point in the chain and defeat the point? or is the extra level coming from the topping meaning lower output from the scarlett solving that?
would love to know if it's worth it to add to my setup but obviously don't wanna spend if there's gonna be no point.
or am I missing the point entirely and should be getting an external DAC as well to bypass the scarlett entirely?
DAC makes a big difference. The DAC chipset each use has a lot to do with the sound.
The headphone amps will always be bottle necked by the interfaces DAC & line outs but the amps are more for ensuring lowest headphone output impedance as well as power for hungry headphones. That's where low THD headphone amps really come into their own to my ears when they are being pushed to power hungry cans.
I think most of the scarlett stuff is 1ohm which is great BUT I always hear an improvement on transients and distortion with the topping l30 compared to budget interfaces.
The best scenario is to get a dac/amp combo which is what I did.
@@PaulThird thanks for the reply! that makes me think investing in the dx7 would maybe make more sense.
I mostly use the vsx headphones these days so I'm not battling impedance really, so again I guess I get concerned I'll not get the full benefits. After watching so many of your videos though (and trying out nebula because of you) it's difficult not to get excited about something when you get excited about it haha.
suppose I can always get something and return it if I'm not hearing enough difference though.
apologies for my adhd rambling, nice to talk to someone so knowledgeable though who isn't being paid to sell me something
Dx7 pro+ sounds better than my apollo x6 + l30 mk2 setup. It's defintely good investment
Paul, when you say 80-85 dB, do you mean dBA, or dBC? I think both of those are too loud to recommend, but dBC might be more passable. However, that's still loud levels. You'd wear your ears out if that was your normal levels. Like, you'd get hearing damage over time. I don't like that you say you need to mix at that level. The suggestion should rather be "remember to check your mix at higher listening levels, too", because that's a totally fair argument. Poor mixes do fall apart at higher volume levels, and it's important to keep track of, but I don't think we should argue to always have that listening level.
Read mixing engineering books and you'll read clear as day that they are listening around 80-85db.. The odd even louder.
You can mix up to 8 hours at those levels and tbh you shouldn't be mixing more than 8 hours anyway as your ears will be shot by then.
80db is busy traffic. Science is just science. There's a reason why these guys mix at these levels. I asked the pro's I know and they all said 80-85db.
In terms of weighted I measure dbC as that's what I was told but check that out
www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm
Solid information, collected and averaged
Absolutely so so important to have a good headphone amp , my favourite is the little labs monotor
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I have a RME Babyface Pro FS
I was curious if i needed a headphone amp , as i use headphones to mix
If i do, or if you recommend doing so, will you please recommend something
I trust your opinion after binging almost half your videos so far lmfao
Thank You for your knowledge
You may have convinced me to get a headphone amp, i am currently using planar mixing headphones plugged into the focusrite 2i2. I thought because it can get loud enough for me that it was good enough, but i'm going to try the Topping L30 mk2 and i'm interested to see the difference that will make for the clarity.
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Wonder if the headphones amp made a difference, please share.
@@g.o.9513 I bought the topping l30ii and It seemingly makes no difference unless you're coming from something truly crap, it turns out my focusrite 2i2 was indeed good enough to power my planars and i can't tell any obvious differences between the two when volume matched.
That's really surprising cause I've had a lot of people comment and DM to thank me for reccomending the L30ii and quite a few had 2i2's and offer focusrites
If you can't hear it then you hear it but if you still have L30ii could you do me a favour and try the test I do when comparing headphone amps. This also applies to anybody else reading this.
FYI Gain needed depends on the sensitivity of the headphone. My sundaras had a low sensitivity but not all planars do. A lot do need a lot of gain but depends
Also, Before you do this ensure you are listening around 80-85db spl
1. Listen to hella good by no doubt and listen particularly to the snare. There should be an audible transient difference as the topping measures a very quick transient response which is where many hp amps struggle. You'll gear a difference in the snap of the transient.
2. Listen to the chorus synth in hella good and compare the distortion of it as I normally find this as a good distortion test as that synth can lose clarity very quickly on lower quality systems (this is probably more of a DAC thing but I recall hearing it compared to the audient hp amp)
3. Listen to the acoustics and vocal clarity of stay by post malone. Normally I find the vocal is a little more intelligible and guitar a little more detailed due to the transients and ultra low distrortion.
4. For low end listen to typhoon by royal blood. This should be a good low end distortion and transient test. Like the no doubt track listen to the transient response and if the low end of the kick is slightly cleaner
If after all that there is no difference to your ears, then it doesn't really matter what you use or buy headphone amp wise. And that's not me being a dick, there's just no point expirimenting further with hp amps as the topping measures better than nearly all hp amps out there
As a final note though, remember that the DAC will always bottle neck the headphone amp. So if you can't hear a difference in a headphone amp then try comparing interface to a good dac amp or dac amp combo
@@PaulThird I did keep the topping as i got a great deal on it and it's good to have just in case i ever get high impedance headphones. And I just tried these tests, i still can't really hear an obvious difference between my 2i2's headphone out and the topping. To give more info, my headphones i'm using are the avantone planars which are 32 ohms and have a sensitivity of 104 dB/1mW, which i think it quite easy to drive? I'm not sure, but also i tend to listen to my music and mix at quieter volumes to prevent ear fatigue over long sessions. It is possible that i might just not be trained to listen out for transients, but i personally can't tell an obvious difference between the two, at least with these headphones.
You should also spend some time listening to your mixes at a quieter level, like quiet enough that you could hear someone call your name. Beyond a certain point, the louder you play back your audio the more the system (or even your ears) will start to compress the sound; if you're mixing that loud, then you're mixing to a level of compression that no one else will hear, and your mixes will fall apart at lower levels. The track levels could be off, the frequencies could be out of balance, etc. I'm not saying this should be your primary mixing level, but you should definitely try your mixes out at quieter levels if that isn't something you are used to.
I did say that in the original edit but I went a bit OTT haha
A mixture of both is good for the right balance but I think I made sure to push the loud aspect of it as I know not many are doing that. Most new to mixing on headphones will simply mix at their own comfortable level and not consider mixing around 80-85db as its not natural to them.
I've read big legendary mixers having "their loud" at 90-95db and 80-85db being their conversation level, like what they go down to as a moderate level.
I think in modern times many not growing up in big studios have learned to listen quieter cause its more comfortable and they don't know any better. True that these older pro mixers still listened at quieter levels for translation and finding an overall balance but what they 100% do every time is mix loud at some stage and make decisions based on that level where in modern day times I would say people don't even know to crank the phones and the importance of checking that.
Put it this way, you can mix 16 hours at 82db and 8 hours at 85db. It's not as loud as everybody thinks but if you've not been introduced to loud levels as a normal every day occurrence then you probably won't instinctively do it.
Most big records are played in clubs and venues so ensuring your mixes sound on point at those levels is vital, as is consumer headphone levels but that level isn't an issue as far as I can see cause most new engineers are mixing at that level cause that's what they listen at.
Even some of the comments saying Paul that's too loud.. I'm like fuuuuck you are in for a shock if you walk into a studio with big expensive monitors haha
Hello, thank you for the interesting video. Can you use the Topping DX7 directly as an audio interface (only for monitoring)? Or is there a reason why you go via the Audient audio interface?
Yes if you use ASIO driver in the daw. Outside of DAW you can use dx7 pro+ driver.
I keep the revelator & l30 mk2 combo for recording as the dx7 pro+ is purely a DAC. No ADC in there.
The desirability of having low output impedance for a headphone amplifier will depend on the design principle of the headphones in use. Unfortunately, few headphones are provided with information regarding the source impedance they are designed for. I suspect it's fair to assume modern low impedance headphones are probably designed for a low source impedance, being designed in similar fashion to speakers expecting effective electrical damping. Headphones designed to an older tradition may well be intended to operate with a source impedance more like the 120 Ohms specified in IEC standard 61938 and are likely to sound their best with such source impedance, having their frequency response and mechanical damping optimized to suit. Driven from a low impedance source, such a design risks sounding over-damped or lumpy in frequency response. It is possible that headphones designated as Studio or Monitoring headphones may have this characteristic since this would imply they expect to be used with the output of a mixing console, which will usually have this higher output impedance. But since a name like "Studio" might be attached to any headphones to suggest being high-end, you couldn't rely on that.
Suppose that's why you research your headphones before you buy them 🤓
@@PaulThird Preferably being able to listen to them on your own studio equipment. 🙂
True. That's why buying gear with 30 day money back return policies is always a smart idea
i went from a 2i2 2nd gen to the audient 14mk2 and difference is night and day for all the reasons you give :) great content......
l have a SSL2 interface, what headphones would you recommend to mix with that?
so far i have beyerdynamic dt 770’s 80 ohms
Senheisser HD 280 Pros
Audio Technicas M40x
I'd reccomend the ones that sound the best to you. The pair that translate into better mixes on more playback systems. . Nothing wrong with having other headphones for referencing though
@@PaulThird Thanks! I was asking because i kept seeing videos that low impedance headphones can mess with the interface and cause a distortion if you raise it up or something? Idk the Ohms for the SSL2 so i was wondering which headphones were the best for it.
Being honest, the topping l30 mk2 is like £140 and measures better than any headphone amp out there as far as I'm aware. Line outs of ssl into RCA in of topping, plug ANY headphone into it.. Job done, thank me later 👍
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
Hello, the SSL 2 can handle 80 ohms for sure. Anything past 250 Ohms is where you'd really need to switch interface. Don't you worry about that. The beyerdynamic dt 770s and 880s are a reference for a reason. Many universities teach with them for a reason - it's a classic. I think your interface matches your headphones.
If one day, you decide to go up in budget, I recommend to skip the mid-tier of 400 Buck-Interfaces and go straight for something >800. Personally I am a RME-boy, so I'd recommend the Fireface for studio and the Babyface for travel or even studio (depending on your budget and what you do). When it comes to choosing headphones you really need to test them. Heads and ears are very different and this plays a bigger role with headphones than with speakers - and even speakers are very much a taste-thing (I like iLouds and Neumanns as speakers, I also got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro and Focal Spirit One Studio Classic (not sold anymore) headphones).
I suggest not to worry too much about having the "perfect" headphones for now - unless you're spending ~100 Bucks a month on plugins. In that case don't buy plugins for 8 months and get yourself a top-tier interface first and a top-tier pair of headphones 5-12 months later. Way better to invest in hardware (computer, interface, mic, headphones, speakers, room-treatment and room-optimizers (trinnov). The things I want to buy now, are the things I'd already own, if I hadn't spent the money on plugins that I never use.
Now I've written a lot more than you asked for, but that's how I am somtimes, excuse me. So what headphones to use with your SSL2 interface? Yours are great for that! If you want to upgrade, upgrade the whole shabang. And don't buy plugins. The free kilohearts, melda and ableton/pro tools stock plugins are great and I use them all the time. I also use the fancy plugin here and there.. but at this point I'm pretty sure I do it mainly because I paid for them. I'd tell you which ones, but then you'd maybe go ahead and buy them instead of hardware and my whole novel here would have been for nothing - haha.
Hmm. worth a thought, there. I've got a mobile recording rig with two audient ASP880's going into an iD44 - PayPal and other credit facilities - been there, too. Well, at home, I use an Audient iD22. I mostly mix, or record me, so I don't need the 'rig', but what I have noticed is the single headphone out on the iD22 is considerably, louder, punchier and fuller than the either of the Headphone outs on the iD44. Same headphones; Audio Technica ath M50. But, I can't use the iD22 for the rig, because it's only got one light pipe. And the wee Mackie 4-way headphone amps I used recently didn't really help me as much as I thought they would. Need to do some research. Good channel, Paul. Love your cheeky-chappie honesty
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Most audio interface headphone outputs are garbage, but the ones on RME are the best I've ever heard, when I jumped to an RME UFX years back, it finally retired my Earmax Valve headphone amp I was so impressed by it.
RME are great 🤓
What are your thoughts about the hifiman he400se?
Very good headphone for the price but doesn't exceed in anything. You aren't gonna get close up front detail of the ananda nano or soundstage of the HE1000SE, or even the average that's the sundara but it's gonna give you a £100 headphone that is clean enough to take eq and sound better than most dynamics double or triple it's price
I'm glad I found these info. Totally makes sense. I went to the links you provided in the description. While I was shopping for a headphones amp, I found the L30 ii and E30 ii DAC. What are the differences between them?? Sorry everyone, please excuse my ignorance.. I'm simply recording my one classical guitar + keyboard + vocal... All of them connected to an audio interface (SSL+) which is connected to an ipad (GarageBand). I use ONLY in ear monitors (17 impedance) for mixing and editing. Now, what will serve me more L30ii or E30ii or should I get both?? Again sorry for my confusion. I'm literally new the the recording world. Cheers to all of you 👏
apos.audio/products/topping-dx1-dac-amp?sca_ref=2631045.fe2CvXDSYM
Check that out. Best Budget DAC/AMP combo on the market.
L30ii is just a headphone amp, E30 ii is just a DAC. The 2 need each other to work in a headphone setup. The l30 mk2 requires a DAC to feed an analog signal into it and the e300ii needs an amp or speaker to output its converted signal
The new DX1 gives you a good compromise of both for under £100. Think of the dx1 as just slightly below the DAC performance (stats wise) of an audient id14 mk2 but with a better performing headphone amp as it has the power to drive really any headphone and comes with 0.5ohm headphone output impedance which means that it remains very linear. The 2 use different chips so I dunno if the dx1 may still sound better as the chipset does make a big difference but the audient DAC is pretty good from my experience. Not excellent but pretty decent considering the price.
L30ii & E30ii (the dx1 uses the same AKM chip but e30ii uses 2 instead of 1) gives better performance but its all about whether you can be bothered linking the 2 and paying an extra £200.
As the topping dx7 pro+ is my main listening output I invested in the best but for my portable setup dx1 is gonna be perfect for me. USB powered without sacrifying quality and its size is so compact it's the equivalent of carrying out a USB hard drive haha
@@PaulThird God goodness, thank you very much for your Easley explained answer.
I think I m going with the dx1, though when I checked their website they are have the Dx 3 pro on sale.. it's like 50 EUR difference. What do you think?
Dunno it's hard. The dx3 pro+ was like their best seller for the longest time. I dunno what the exact difference is between pro & pro+ but I remember reading that the pro didn't like very low ohm (around 20 ohm) headphones but if you had higher impedance cans you were golden. Pro+ was an all rounder and many still believe its the best they've done.
If its the dx3 pro and not pro+ then it's still a good performing dac amp. Uses the same AKM chipset as the dx1 so I really dunno what difference there is gonna be.
If its pro+ then 100% that over dx1. If it's only £50 then bite their hand off
@@PaulThird you are the best.
Cheers to you and happy new year in advance 🌹🌹
One mote question Mr. Third. I god a lake people headphone Amp. Like it a lot built like a tank but I get a kinda loud pop when I turn it on with the phones plugged in. You have that experience on your both your units? 😊
Couldn't say, my setup turns on all at the same time. As soon as I switch on the computer everything powers up so I never have my headphones on when the amp switches on
I have a Presonus 1824c with BeyerDT99's - I would love to upgrade soon but for now, well you tell me, if you feel like checking out my new track, do I need to?
I wouldn't be using 1824c for mixing on headphones. One of the highest THD+N measurements I've seen and it's working impedance range is a minimum of 32 ohms which cancels out most audeze headphones if you choose to upgrade in the future. Doesn't state headphone output impedance but the fact its working range of 32 and above would tell me that it has a high output impedance so for your beyers yeah it'll be fine but you upgrade to planars or low impedance cans in the future.. Not advisable.
At that price, presonus has to cut some corners, it's inevitable offering 8 ins and outs for £360, so you get what you pay for.
Id be upgrading the headphone amp at least. Personally I'd advise a dac/amp. You can link it to your 1824c via the spdif out if the DAC/amp has coaxial input.
Dunno if the 1824c optical out does spdif or adat only but if it does optical spidf out and the DAC amp has an optical port you can link it that way as well so you have a pure digital signal being fed to it.
Alternatively you can just use your presonus for recording and your dac/amp for mixing. Either way I'd be advising an upgrade as you can't mix what you can't hear but I'll leave that decision up to you
@@PaulThird Major thanks is due! I am thinking to go RME, just need to save for a bit, and wait for a good time to make the purchase!
I may just upgrade the 1824c completely as the thought of outboarding without "the good converters" keeps me up at night.
I moved over from Lynx Hilo to RME ADI-2 Pro FS R FS last year for mastering and the RME is absolutely amazing in every detail. The headphone monitoring in the RME is one of the best on the market.
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Chibai Paul, The Night vs Day part gives me anxiety and reason to consider good DAC 🤦 ..BTW, Do you know any good song/ mix reference track that is clean sounding, flat and boring but good balance that you can tweak with EQ for taste and use that EQ curve on while monitoring during mixing, so that it compensates our taste / style of how we treat the Freq/Timbre/Dynamics in our mixes... 🤔
I just pick one mixer I like and reference a track he's done that is similar to the track I'm mixing
A struggle ive had is that a lot of studio monitor headphones are great for hearing detail when tracking but are extremely colored in a way the can sound great but makes it difficult to guess how it will translate. Tried 7506, 770, 990, and k240. I have a bunch lying around that are more for listening, hifiman, grado, etc. and those were probably safe to write off but the pair I didnt try for the longest time was my sennheiser 598. That a basic plugin to simulate crossfeed and mono and youre golden. I actually dont prefer them for listening because i find everything sounds very warm and almost murky. I gave it a try and matched my recordings to how songs i love sound on them. I was able to judge the dimensions and also pleasantness of the sound better than elsewhere and it translated better to both other headphones and speakers. I love the sizzle of v shaped studio headphones and when i listened back on those it was there. Im not saying sennheiser is neutral, but in the same way youve recommended louder listening there was something about the sound signsture of the sennheiser that felt very easier to work with a produced good results.
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@@PaulThird by the way, i picked up the amp you recommended. Very very very good idea. The day i got it i started working on a new album and im at the 40 minute mark now. The amp, the use of the 598, and a sterling ribbon mic were the biggest changes i made to my workstation and im super happy with the results. I owe you a big thanks for your contribution
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Obviously, headphone mixing is the most practical route for most people, but music, sound vibration is also felt physically and maybe this aspect is getting lost. Also, the crosstalk thing, although it can be replicated for mixing with headphones, if most music is heard through headphones, should we create a separate 'headphone mix' with faux crosstalk that isn't present in a 'loudspeaker mix'? I presume you're not suggesting we print the crosstalk, but just use it for reference while mixing, but isn't the point to make a headphone mix translate to stereo loudspeakers, that most people aren't using(?) Cheers.
As much as headphones are the dominant force in consumer listening, it doesn't change the fact that music has been mixed and mastered on speakers for decades. Headphones were always a secondary thing that wasn't really bothered about, kinda like how mono is seen now.
So as mixers we still need to adhere by those standards as music will still be played on tv's, car stereos, Bluetooth speakers etc. The aim is to find the right level of translation which tbh Ive not found an issue on headphones because I use a specific harman eq curve and high quality crosstalk algorithms.
Its all about translation. When Ive mixed on headphones with hifiman sundara through realphones I've taken the speaker sim & eq off & the mix still translates really well on any headphone. So I don't really worry about it at all. I don't get issues with headphone to monitor mixes either cause of realphones.
However if I listen to my realphones setup and it sounds really off without it then I know there's a translation issue but I've not had that yet.
The feel of monitors is always going to be different from headphones but remember that headphones has its own feel. Get a good pair of planars and a high quality headphone amp you'll feel your skull rattling with the low end haha
Translation is everything. So I still check mixes on crappy monitors and stuff. That's the key to mixing on headphones, is combining the setup and learning with multiple references
I added a Neve RNHP for this reason. Thanks for another great video.
Interesting stuff. Just wanted to ask if Topping L30 II sounds better than Topping DX3 Pro+ and built in SSL 2+ hp amp? How would you rate these three?
Topping dx3 pro+ is the full package. Don't rate any of the SSL interfaces
@@PaulThird Thx for the answer Paul.
But would be L30 II an upgrade vs DX3 Pro+?
I didn't fully get - "don't rate any of the SSL interfaces" - It means you don't know them to judge how their hp amps sound?
I know how they measure and I know a few guys that have had them and tested them. Emrah tested the SSL and told me that the hp amp audibly colors and distorts the sound when pushing the volume. Pretty much useless for cleanly driving headphones with low sensitivity.
If you look at the specs it'll tell you enough.
Output impedance of 10 ohms which is decent but not great. You are looking for impedance of 1 ohm as anything above 1-2ohm can impact the frequency response of low ohm dynamic headphones.
THD of 0.05% is -66db which is in the audible range and not specifying at what mW/ohm so most likely even higher when pushed which explains Emrah's issue.
100mW max power into 32 ohm is very poor. Toppings e2x2/e4x4 interface has a professional grade hp amp and offers 580mW into 32 ohm. Even toppings £100 dx1 dac amp offers nearly 3 times the power at 32 ohm with 280mW.
SSL doesn't have the power to drive planars correctly, nor offer clean power, or guarantee a flat frequency response with low ohm headphones
That's why I don't rate ssl interfaces for headphones
@@PaulThird Thx for feather explanation Paul, I appreciate it. Now it's clear to me. So both DX3 Pro + and L30 II are an upgrade vs SSL2+. I already have DX3 Pro+, is its worth to buy an L30 II for mixing purposes?
I can't afford RME or DX7 Pro yet;)
Nah dx3 pro+ will give you as much as you need. L30ii in conjuction with dx3 will give you more clean gain but you only need that if you plan on driving something super hungry like dan clarks or something
Cool! I just got the Slate VSX after years of thinking about it.. they are really next level from my earlier setup with Sonarsworks and AKG K550mkII.. next in your setup 😎?
I got somebody to contact them for me but they weren't interested haha 😢
@@PaulThird Too bad!!
Would you recommend to still get a DAC for mixing if I were to invest in an audio interface like the Rme ufx 3? Or should I invest in a more affordable interface and get Topping's DAC?
I am using a scarlet 4i4 with Ananda Nano to mainly record vocals with some instruments atm.
Yup. Headphone amp in the UFX3 is sub par. 200mW at 32ohm isn't the best considering the anandas need a bit of Juice to drive them properly. Plus 0.02% THD is -74db which is audible enough to colour the sound.
To put it into context £100 bus powered topping dx1 has a better performing headphone amp with more power and less THD+N
@@PaulThird Oh wow super thank you for your insights!!
I’ve had enough of hearing distortion in my DT770 80ohms, despite the Zoom Livetrack mixer headphone out being rated 100ohms (no problems at all through my A&H mixer which I use for live). I just bought a Topping L50 to counter this and improve SQ. Glad to see it wasn’t overkill. I bought first, then done my research so good to see we’re on the same page!
🤓🤓
Ciao, I read about Your gear but I don't see anything about near (or mid or fa) field monitor . And about Your Rooms size ?
I don't use monitors
I have Audeze LCD-x 2021 which are very easy to drive and i powered them with focusrite scarelet 18i8 2nd gen. From my listening experience it sounds very good. I have custom eq curve when i am listening on them as well as i'm mixing. I do not know am i missing something because not having dac, amp or better interface in terms of sound. Loudness is not a problem. Do you think is it worth to invest more into these setup? Thanks
Believe it or not focusrite headphone amps are one of the exceptions to the rule. 18i8 has a headphone impedance of 1ohm which you'll struggle to find on other interfaces. You can run any headphone on that and tonally not worry about the sound where your lcdx 2021 really wouldn't be reccomended on most other interfaces cause they have a much higher headphone output impedance
Dunno how much power it has for hungry planars and high impedance cans though.
The DAC is a very big factor. I know cause I've got arguably the best external headphone amp and I can hear differences in DAC whether it be audient, universal audio, presonus. The dx7 pro+ is something I've never heard elsewhere. Maybe it's the ESS sabre chip combined with toppings own dac circuitry.. Not entirely sure but a good DAC can do wonders to what you hear. Interface to interface.. Its subtle until you get into RME universal audio etc
Hello,
Thanks for the update! What is better, the new Topping Dx9 or the RME Adi-2?
I'd say dx9
@@PaulThird thank you sir! I have another question.
If I run my Apollo twin x line output 3 and 4 into a DAC/amp combo, will I run into an issue?
From my understanding the Apollo twin already acts as DAC, however I’ve heard it’s not a very powerful DAC.
Will I run into issues if I run a DAC/AMP combo out of my apollo twin x line out 3 and 4 ?
Yes cause you are running a DAC into a DAC but it wouldn't work anyway as the topping DAC amps only have digital inputs purposely to stop what you have suggested
Unfortunately your twin x has no optical out so there's no way of connecting it to the topping. Your only option is to buy a headphone amp, not DAC amp if you still want to use the apollo
@@PaulThird thank you for help! I will check out amp and not a DAC
I have sonarworks reference id4
And dt 990 pro 250 ohm
Should i buy scarlet audio Interface
or fiio k5 pro ess dac amp????
I use it for music Production
If its id4 mk2 I would advise a topping l30 mk2 amplifier. If you want a dac amp around the same price as filo k5 pro then topping dx3 pro+
I am running a Topping MXs with and optical feed from my RME hsdpe IO with HD650's (not the 650 "S") and it is the best headphone setup I have ever used, super detailed and super clean, love it! I do want the RME Adiac pro but this Topping is truly amazing for the price. (edit) Just want to add that is use the XLR digi out to my Genelec SAM 8330, if anyone is wondering about RME and is it worth it, my answer would be yes all day and night the flexibility is brilliant. If you are working at home and only recording 1 or 2 inputs get one of the PCIE cards, it is all you need and you can upgrade by adding an adat IO at a later date.
It's a wonder more don't know about the topping range 🤓
@@PaulThird Yeah, I was looking at them for months, i must have visited audiosciencereview a 1000 times, so much so pressiing "a" in my browser would take me there, 🤣. If anyone is thinking Topping is just audiophile nonsense, you couldn't be more wrong. Just buy one, if you don't like it (unlikely) they hold their value well you wont loose much on a resale.
Just ordered Schiit Magni+ to drive my HD600... I hope it's as good as the reviews say
I own an Audient ID14 mkii presently was thinking of upgrading to an ID44 mkii. But recently I have been thinking of getting an interface with reference grade AD/DA converter so I can mix well. Do you think a Prism Lyra 2 is best for that or what 2 channel DA/AD converter can you recommend
Nah I'd say go for an RME ucx ii over the prism. Half the price and can't see any reason why prism would give you better results
Hi Paul, i’ve got an sennheiser hd650. Its 300 ohms…and its connected to the scarlett 2i2 interface…do i still need an headphone amp to achieve more out of my headphones?
Should be fine frequency response wise as it 1 ohm hp output impedance. Transients wise you'll probably hear a difference with the L30ii though. I can't say for sure cause I've never tried a focusrite but transient response is awesome on the topping
Thank you Paul third
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hi paul, so i have to buy an audio interface? audio+amp? or a dac? i use ableton live.
For doing any mixing on headphones a good dac amp is advised
@@PaulThird yeah but i can connect also only an amp to my audio interface right?
Yup. Via the line outs so TRS to RCA
@paul third I mainly mix on my Ollo Audio S4xs. They are very easy to drive. But should I get the Topping L30 ii?? Would I notice a difference that would be worth the investment??
Om
What is your interface?
@@PaulThird Apollo X6
Dunno cause universal audio are strange with their Headphone impedance for whatever reason. They never disclose it even in the manual.
All it says in the manual is that it's 150mW going into 300ohm which tells you it wouldnt drive a lot of high impedance headphones like sennheiser and most likely hungry low impedance planars like sundara and audeze. Sennheiser hd 600/ 650 and my sundaras need at least 300mV to properly drive them loud.
To put it in comparison, Topping L30 mk2 for example is 600mW into 300 ohm... 3x the power of the opollo!!
Its odd that they have hidden their hp output impedance and my guess is that the apollo headphone amp range is higher impedance which I wouldnt suggest using with your 30 ohm ollo's.
Can't see any issues with driving them at all with your ollo's as they are a low impedance dynamic BUT my concern is if apollos headphone amp is high like the id44 mk1 which is 50 ohm. I read rumours that it was higher but I can't confirm that.
If it is then your low impedance ollos may suffer from frequency deviations so your linearity will be pretty skewed. Less electrical damping can occur which affects the low end and transient response.
The only way to tell is to get an l30 mk2 and A/B for yourself. My guess is you may percieve better low end detail and improved transient response.
@@PaulThird Paul, thank you so much for your extremely detailed and thoughtful answer. I really appreciate it! Thank you for investing your time in answering something so specific to me.
Be well.
Oh, and by the way, have you tried the Ollo S4XS? What do you think of them?
Hi Paul, my interface is the UAD Apollo Solo. I’ve been mixing out of the built in headphone amp. Do you recommend adding a separate headphone amp?
I'd reccomend trying it out and doing A/B's. My topping l30 mk2 is only £140 and measures like no other on audio science review.
Worth trying out, especially if you can get a returns policy. I'd check Apos to see if they have that
FYI you will need TS to RCA to connect the 2
Thank you! I love your channel. The funny interludes you do during your videos crack me up. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It’s been a big help. Cheers from South Florida!
Should I be using a DAC as well in conjunction with the audio interface and headphone amp?
I'm using the dx7 pro+ as my main monitoring and the revelator io24 in conjunction with the topping l30 mk2 for when im recording
Ok. A lot of that is over my head so I’ll have to do some reading. Thanks so much!
Hey Paul, I hope you get to see this, please Advice me, I mix on headphones 80% of the time. I've got Audioent ID24, and I've got Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro 250ohms and Sennheiser HD650. What RME product should I get for better monitoring both on headphones and my Monitors (Adam Audio A7X). Thanks
ADI 2 PRO FS
@@PaulThird thank you very much!!!
Hi Paul, Are you combining your Topping DAC with Realphones software?
I was without room emulation so just eq curve correction but Im trying out a new eq profile made by another sundara ueer
Paul, do you think an RME UFX + is suitable for a professional recording studio when it comes to conversion and clocking? Thank you
One of my mentors has been using it for years so absolutely. He just upgraded last week to the new ADI-2 Pro FS. Using them both but the ADI is doing the DAC conversion
@@PaulThird nice! I’ve had my UFX for years now but always wondered if I should upgrade my conversion to something “mastering grade” now that I’m in a legit, commercial studio space. Would you consider the UFX + mastering grade?
Emrah won awards for mixing and mastering through it so I'd say so. However, as I said he did go to the ADI-2 but it's just so he knows for sure he has end game DAC. Got it just to make sure he has top spec of top spec
ADI-2 is Amir from audio science reviews personal choice
@@PaulThird thanks!
I'm a bit confused - where does your audio interface fit in the chain? I'm looking at getting a DAC/headphone amp on your recommendation. I just got the Audeze LCD X and using an Axe FX as my audio interface. Would I put the output of the Axe FX into say a DX7 or RME? If so, which one would I use as my audio device on my PC in my DAW? Cheers.
For me the interface is for recording and the dx7 pro+ is for playback. A headphone amp like the l30 mk2 is connected via the line outs of your interface to the rca inputs of topping.
My dx7 pro+ is connected via spdif of apollo x6
@@PaulThird Thanks for your reply! So the DAC doesn't connect to the computer, it connects to the interface. I was looking at the dx5 lite which only has USB and SPDIF inputs, so I thought it would have to also be connected to the computer. The Axe FX does have SPDIF outputs but I've never used them.
Do you also use active speakers, and in which case where do they plug in, the DX7 or the apollo? Thanks again!
You can use the dx7 pro+ and any of the other DAC's direct from the computer just like an interface but most daws only allow one device to be used at a time so you'd have to swap between dac and interface when mixing and recording. That's why I connect dx7 pro+ to apollo via spdif so I can use both in the daw
@@PaulThird Ah, I see, gotcha. It would be really helpful to see that laid out in a video - what the signal chain is and your workflow. Maybe one for the future, unless you've covered it in another video? Guess I'll subscribe and have a look through! Thanks for being a gent 🙏
Hey Paul the Third, would you say my Topping DX5 is okay for some audio work with a pair of Beyerdynamic DT 900 Pro X ? I see on the ASR reviews that is a bit behind your DX7 Pro..
You'll be absolutely fine with dx5
Hello, Paul! I have Lexicon IO22 and Hifiman Sundara. Thinking about buying a headphone amplifier, Topping L30 maybe, but I still don't quite understand how to connect the line out on the soundcard and RCA on the amplifier, are there any kind of adapters?
www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Neo-Oyaide-dand-RTS-Class-B-1-4TS-to-RCA-1-Metre/1YHN?origin=product-ads&gclid=CjwKCAjw8JKbBhBYEiwAs3sxN5rQjpT6V3bsdsQM9_viZxB4R6oSg0xvPIlzhF1jVF47miO1SQ52YhoCcg0QAvD_BwE
Pretty sure thats exactly what I bought.
You need to buy a cable separately and it's really simple. Line outs of lexicon into RCA of l30. Set up the routing on your computer as if you are listening to monitors (line out 1-2 for example) and listen through the topping.
@@PaulThird oh, that makes sense now, thank you!
Great video, but very confusing to me because of your claims about the new amplifier.
I'm currently struggling to understand the differences between amplifiers, and since you already have the same interface as I do (Audient), this gets even more confusing to me, because it makes no sense to me that another amplifier just changes the sound of the headphones.
Many people told me that amps have one purpose, to give enough current or power to the headphones, while keeping a flat frequency response. The Audient from what I've read, does that very well.
The only thing I know about the interface that might back up your claims is that the Audient headphone output impedance is 22 ohms, so it might color low impedance headphones and might make them sound, tonality wise, worse.
But having better details, crisper transients and better imaging? it makes no sense to me, it might be that topping colors the sound differently, and makes you think that the headphones just sounds better.
But at the end of day you're using the same headphones, how can it really sound any different?
So now I just want to explain my situation: Audient iD4 mk 1, powering DT 770, DT 1990 and Kali LP6 (which you also have) all above 80 ohms
To give you an example of how I hear things, my inbuilt PC jack sounds exactly the same to my cheap dongle and to the Audient iD4, the only difference is power, and maybe maybe a tiny bit of distortion with my PC connection.
I know sound is subjective, which is why I'm really curious what you think about all of this, maybe I'm getting it all wrong and interfaces compromise on headphone jacks, maybe topping is just insane, or maybe it's just a problem with Audient.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-l30-ii-review-headphone-amp.36027/
There is a lot science involved and various factors that can affect the sound of headphones.
The topping is the opposite of coloured. It's as clean and transparent as any headphone amp on the market.
You essentially want a headphone amp to have an output impedance of no more than 1-2ohm (Julian Krause says the same). This is because of the way that low ohm dynamic headphones & low ohm IEM's are affected with higher impedance headphone amps. This can cause dampening which affects the frequency response as well as added distortion.
A big problem with interface headphone amps is power, and not just high power, high power with low distortion.
When you get into the realms of planar magnet headphones and high impedance headphones like Sennheiser HD600, you require an amp that can drive the headphones adequately to the required levels due to many of them having low sensitivity. That's why high power with low distortion is very important. Even IEM's can get pretty noisy through low quality headphone amps.
As for transient response the amplifier has to react to transients of the source to be able to amplify them. It's not a power supply, it's an amplifier.
Transient response measures how quickly an audio system can respond to changes in sound level. Specifically, it refers to the system's ability to accurately reproduce transients, which are the sudden changes in sound level that occur at the start of a waveform.
So if the headphone amp isnt quick enough to react to the initial transient of the waveform then it will result in a softer sound in its amplification. If it's quick enough to react to the analog signal then it should be able to effectively amplify the whole transient.
We are dealing with analog sound waves passing through circuitry and if you think of the headphone amp as your bottleneck then it's going to theoretically have an affect on the purity of the signal in the same way you pass a guitar signal through a DI box or a 1073.. its an amplifier at the end of the day and the quality of that circuitry & signal path has a limiting affect of the purity of the original signal, how pure the signal comes out the other end is defined by the signal path of the amplifier.
Budget Interfaces normally cant afford or have the space to include a high quality signal path for every headphone. Universal audio told me that themselves. It's a compromise, where a well built headphone amp has no compromise, it's built only to amplify the signal going into a headphone. Its price, size and circuit path reflect that
Totally agree. Upgrading from a focusrite interface to a MOTU Ultralite was for me a big change . I mix 50% on headphones and a better headphone amp helps a loooot.
Think the converter chip in the motu is a slightly older version of whats in my dx7 pro+. Both ESS SABRE pro 🤓
@@PaulThird 😂😂😂 yessss...you should sell gear Paul!
@@PaulThird so have you ditched interfaces altogether? Or will you run your stack into your interface? I’m considering running a JDS Labs Atom amp into a Motu m2, but this video has me wondering if I should just get an Atom stack for mixing with Sundaras and ditch the m2..
Just now I'm running apollo x6 for recording and switching to topping driver for mixing
Are you using sundara with this? How was it? I'm currently using hifiman sundara with focusrite solo, the power is just too low.
Sundaras have a lower sensitivity so need more juice in order to drive them. Thus why a headphone amp like the L30ii is perfect for all headphones. Even Dan Clark stealth
Hi Paul, I just wanted to know would you still recommend the DX7 pro? I am particularly interested in getting a headphone dac or perhaps a new interface. Have you heard the dac on the Neumann mt48? And if so does it compare to the DX7 pro in your opinion?
I still use dx7 pro+ every day. Ed Thorne then bought one and uses that as his main DAC amp and he has the MT48. Said he prefers the topping over the MT48 for conversion and driving headphones
@@PaulThird thanks so much for the reply. Am wanting to drive Neumann ndh 20’s and Sennheiser hd650’s. Am desperately trying to improve mixing skills and I am not happy with the headphone amp on Apollo twin MK1-mids and highs sound way to harsh. I take note of your recommendations, as you seem to be on the money and I recall you mentioning that particular model a while back and then again most recently with your show with Ed and whilst I am not Scottish I do appreciate the savings on buying the dx7 pro + over the Neumann if it is sonically the better option:-)!! Interesting that Ed prefers this over the Mt48 also!
Dx7 pro+ is still one of the best measuring DAC's on the market. Pretty much end game in regards to performance
@@PaulThird well that’s good to know that your still rooting for it and so I am looking at retailers as we speak. Thanks again Paul👍.
Hi Paul, I am gonna have to cheap out and for now get the L30 mk2, until my budget allows for dx7 pro,🙂but my question is.....How can I also connect monitors as at the moment as I am having to decide between connecting my monitors to Volt 276 or the L30 mk2 and I would like to do both. What's the best way to do this? As I was following your video and you have come out of monitor outputs into the L30 but I need to connect monitors too. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Ciao, do You know monoprice M1070 and what di You think ? As amp Focusrite VRMBOX and correction and Rooms virtualization with Sienna too.
From what I can see online they are pretty power hungry so you'll probably need a decent headphone amp to drive them. At the monoprice's price bracket id suggest buying hifiman sundaras as they are much more well known and trusted. That's what I and a big engineer I talk to daily uses and Amir gave them a stellar review as well.
I wouldn't personally touch the vrmbox as its really outdated compared to today's standards.
Decent headphone amp alongside a good interface would be better or invest in a full DAC/amp combo like I did with the topping dx7 pro+ but there are really good cheaper alternatives like the dx3 pro+, dx5 etc
I have a recording setup and a monitoring setup. Both different.
As for sienna, don't like it but know many who do. I use realphones for correction and room sims purely for reference and translation. I don't mix through the room sims
@@PaulThird Ciao Paul, I have to choose a headphones for the birthday of my son, mainly for nusic listening but she is already a singer (fourteen years old but many lives and recording, now in the "Casa del Jazz" Junior Orchestra in Rome) and would like to approach to the home recoding. Esi extra10 (included realphones esi edition) could be a good option to start, also for music listenig, ? or better to start with something better. Wich amp ? Actually she has a Steinberg MI4 as soundcard with headphone amp.
For me in the future I would like to pass to a good headphone amp with spdfif input (coax or optical), not more of 200,00 €, wich one ? Have a great music
For recording purposes better off with closed back headphones to reduce leakage in the recordings.
In regards to a headphone amp at £200 working with spdiff or coax.. I'm unsure at that price.
I think all the topping headphone amps use RCA
@@PaulThird she already has a commercial wireless closed back headphones usable for tracking, setting in recording a low cpu eq and reverb in realtime it's enough for a good vocal performance, I was thinking about open or semiopen models... 🙂
Open back.. Cant go wrong with sundaras. Best value for money in my personal opinion. An engineer I trust had LCD-X and ditched them for the sundaras. Slight difference but he preferred the sundaras
Hey, could you explain the full path you use for headphones and how you connect it all ? You go from an audio interface to the topping dx7 pro, right ? Thanks a lot !
Apollo x6 via coax spidf to topping dx7 pro+
@@PaulThird Well, I'm listening through the Phonitor One now ! You were absolutely right about the level up in sound quality, Paul. Thank you for getting me in the right path ..
Appreciate the wonderfully detailed info that sheds light on some brand quality. I do want to add: let's not normalize mixing on headphones. Headphones are excellent for analyzing the stereo field in the listener's headphone experience. And multiple headphones allow you to test your mix in different brands. But there is no brand of headphones that should be used as a mixing tool to balance audio. For linearity, for high quality service in mixing and mastering, we rely on monitors.
That's not true I know tons of professional engineers mixing on headphones successfully. One in particular is one of the biggest engineers in Turkey getting millions of streams using sundaras and RME
@@PaulThird it is true. Monitors are simply the correct choice over headphones, and headphones should be used when necessary. There is no pair of headphones that outranks a pair of quality monitors in mixing. But as you say, there are many successful engineers using headphones. I doubt they are using headphones alone. All mixes are finalized in monitors. If you insist, I would love to know who this monitor-less big engineer in Turkey is, and listen to the mixes. If they sound that good, I will color myself impressed. Not trying to be a sourpuss here; I do care about new engineers learning the craft, and I always discourage the normalization of headphones usage because they are inaccurate relative to monitors. As as sidenote, every headphones discussion should include a warning for new users about the potential damage and hearing loss to your ears. There are going to be a lot of damaged ears in 20 years; as coaches in engineering we should help new engineers avoid that.
Emrah Celik (mixyap). He has a fully kitted out studio with very expensive monitoring but has done countless mixes on sundaras and RME.
@@PaulThird can't find songs just a lot of educational content about various products. Anyway don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of your work and I love your content, so thank you for your tremendous hard work in creating all these videos. Just putting my fine point on an issue I'm passionate about. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Honored to hear from you.
Hi, interesting video! Question: how can you tell how loud headphones are in db?
th-cam.com/users/shorts4i1LelGJhK4?feature=share
How is the Pro + compared to the Pro?? What’s the difference ?
When released in September dx7 pro+ had the best SINAD (THD+N) of any DAC measured on audio science review. We are splitting hairs though cause the dx7 pro DAC measures -119db THD+N which means it has 15db less noise and distortion than the DAC of an audient id44. -123db THD+N of dx7 pro+ is still in reality a 4db improvement of a measurement that was already more than anybody would need from a DAC.
However, the Dx7 pro Headphone amp has an output impedance of 6 ohm which can affect linearity in headphones under 60 ohm. Not advisable for a lot of planars (audeze, hifiman etc). Dx7 pro+ has virtually a zero headphone output impedance which is awesome.
The dx7 pro+ is basically the best that topping can offer using the best converter chips and their own circuitry. Refined everything and corrected every issue in dx7 pro. Perfect linearity. No ESS IMD hump, jitter is that low its practically unmeasurable.
In Amir's own words. A guy that's properly tested practically every high grade DAC and amp on the market.
"impeccable performance for a DAC"
The pro+ headohone amp has the same signal to noise ratio as the RME ADI 2, incredibly low noise and distortion and it doesn't clip at 32 & 300 ohm so if you hear any distortion it's the headphone, not the amp.
The dx7 pro+ is basically end game for a DAC/AMP.
@@PaulThird you are the man! Thank you for taking the time to respond and clearly explain all of this!! I was extremely happy with my pro until I read this 🤣🤣 I still am but every little bit helps! Cheers!
Love to now your thoughts on the new Avid interface Mbox thingy.
Completely overpriced
I have an RME UFX. Would you think I'd have an improvement in the sound stage, or do you think I'm well covered with the RME headphone amps?
I would say so. RME is pretty much flagship for the audio world
@@PaulThird As I'm a "tight arse" as well (LOL), I'm trying to check if I'd have an improvement cause (you know better than me) the words "headroom" and "sound stage" are triggers in my head to "I'LL FCKING BUY IT".
Here's the info in the UFX manual.
DA - Stereo Monitor Output Phones (9-12)
As DA, but:
• Output: 6.3 mm TRS stereo jack, unbalanced
• Maximum output level at 0 dBFS, High: +17 dBu
• Maximum output level at 0 dBFS, Low: +2 dBV
• Output impedance: 30 Ohm
I remember when I bought the Universal Audio Twin Quad, the headphone output was so low on volume that I returned that sh**. My RME UFX, despite being old, is an absolute beast and one of the pieces I love the most on my rack.
Honestly man RME ufx measures really well and keeps its value, so much so that the mk1 is still over a grand second hand haha
@@PaulThirdworth upgrading my id22? Or should I get a headphone amp? I use 7506. Are those fine too?
So do you think the Topping DX7 Pro+ is on a level with RME for sound quality?
Measurements say so but I can't comment as I've not got an RME to compare but is highly rated by Amir who uses an RME if I'm correct
Tom i took your advice and tried a thx 589 and wow .and i hav an expensive interface. Night an day... question...if you had to choose. Sundara or Hd560s headphones. Which one you think is best?
Sundara. That's what I use every day
Went from a Scarlett 2i2 (2nd Gen) - driving MM-500, LCD-X and HD650 - to a Topping DX7 Pro + . . . made zero difference (at least to me), I'm sure there is difference, all the numbers are telling me it's better, but I honestly can't hear it . . . it's a nice bit of gear regardless and gets used, but if you swapped between the Scarlett and the topping I really wouldn't notice anything had changed.
You must listen too quiet then as the Scarlett 2i2 2nd gen only outputs around 40-50mW @ 32 ohm. Even the topping e2x2 interface provides 580mW @ 32 ohm. More than 10 times the power.
Dx7 pro+ is 1.8W into 32 ohm!!
Scarlett 2i2 2nd gen only provides 15mW at 200 ohm. E2x2 is 105mW @ 300 ohm which is higher impedance.
Topping is like 700mW @ 300 ohm or something
So after knowing that you have MM-500, LCD-X and HD650 which are hungry headphones and require adequately powered I can only assume that you listen very quiet which isn't going to allow to hear the difference. You should be listening around 80-85db spl (c weighted)
HD650 is 300 ohm. Be lucky if 2nd gen is outputing 10mW at 300 ohm. You should really need to have the scarlet hp amp completely cranked all the time and I still don't think it'll be outputing 80-85db spl
Hi Paul! You had a chance to A/B test in real time , the headphones straight into audio interface versus headphones into Headphones amp + DAC?
I'm interested on how much in percentage can you evaluate the change between them ?
Starting to mix on various locations a couple of years ago, I ran some A/B tests between different interfaces, headphones amps and DACs (mid priced vs more expensive) and there was not more than....I would say, 2-3 % difference.
In the end I settled to Aplollo Twin + Beyerdynamic DT 880 - 32 ohm (no headphone amp or DAC needed) as the best option, price vs increase in quality.
I was that anal about it all, every time I recorded the headphones through my mic to ensure that each setup was at the same level for the AB's. Then I'd have to unplug and listen each time. I don't have a splitter so it was genuinely quick in and out.
At the end of the day when it's level matched as close as you can get and you can physically pick out more details in one compared to the other it's an easy test.
The seperation is the easiest thing to pick out through the dx7 pro+. Backing vocals especially. I listened to various mixes and I just had more detail. Better transient response, more low end detail where I could hear the notes slightly clearer with more punch from the kick. Going back to the id44 and l30mk2 felt narrower with less seperation and going back to just the id44 headphone amp on its own was even narrower with way less detail, way less transients and almost like a thin film over it masking the details. Hard to describe.
Could be that I'm using planar headphones which aren't suited to a 50 ohm headphone amp and relatively known to be harder to drive than most dynamics.
So when using the l30mk2 with it which is under 1ohm and more gain than I could ever want then it's obvious there is gonna be a difference due to less electrical damping and less deviations in frequency response, as well as less distortion.
You can't drive a lot of planar headphones to loud levels using most audio interface headphone amps as they have such a low sensitivity, as do your really high impedance dynamic cans.
So my headphones and headphone amp are the 2 main reasons why it's so easy to tell the difference.
If I was to use your 32 ohm beyerdynamics would I still hear a difference in the id44. Yes cause its 50ohm going into a 32ohm but with a modern id14 mk2 22ohm maybe not as much of a difference.
Your beyers are low ohm dynamics and way more sensitive than a planar and can be driven by near enough anything, that's why those beyers are super consumer based as they are so flexible.
Would my sundaras suffer the same fate through the apollo twin x? gonna say yes as UA have purposely been very shady in revealing their headphone output impedance. Even in the manual which isn't a good sign for a planar user like me. For example my sundaras require 318mv for 94dbspl which is inbetween sennheiser hd650 & 600.
So a near perfectly clean and superbly linear 1ohm powerful headphone amp is always gonna have a big difference with a low ohm power hungry planar headphone which also has faster transient response than a dynamic headphone as well as less distortion and more low end extension.
That's why i hear a massive jump in transients and also hear the l30 l30mk2 as cleaner compared to the id44 headphone amp.
In regards to the DAC difference we are then comparing toppings flagship converter to a consumer grade DAC chip. Comparing a DAC that measures better than any on audio science review. The best SINAD as well as a textbook perfect linear frequency response, and a choice of anti aliasing filters so you can avoid any ringing. Almost zero output impedance with extremely low noise and distortion.
With the id44/l30 mk2 combo you are dealing with a signal being output from the line outs of the audient which in itself has a sound, then into a headphone amp, so not the purest of signals.
The topping dx7 pro+ on its own was an easy win vs a budget audio interface & headphone amp combo. I didn't think the differences in converters and circuitry would play such a big role but I now get that's why people have paid so much for RME in the past when the conversion is that good.
I'm gonna test it out in the new year with Ed as he's using UA in his set up and he's considering audeze headphones so we are gonna test the l30 mk2 with his twin and x8p as I don't think he'll want to invest in a seperate DAC.
@@PaulThird super cool and detailed story, thanks Paul :).
In all of this business it's important that everyone feels okay with decisions when it comes to hear details when mixing. My journey was much simpler, I just decided that the difference is too small to justify the price increase, and also watching other professionals about how they're mixing/mastering on headphones.
Is your rme better then a baby face pro? Why didn’t you just get a baby face?
I don't own an RME. I was thinking about an RME
Hi Paul, just updated my setup with a ADI-2 DAC FS from an M-AUDIO AIR and the difference is BIG.
The details, the power without distortion, so good.
I also purchased a MINIDSP E.A.R.S. to calibrate my ATH M50X with ADI-2 equalizer instead of using sonarworks...so much better.
It's a winning couple.
You can also EQ left and right separately, which is the best because my M50X freq response is different from left to right.
Now waiting for my LCD-XC to complete my upgrade.
The eq feature in adi 2 FS is really what makes it a standout unit. You add that on top of the audio quality it's pretty much hard to beat
Hey Paul, would there really be a noticeable difference between my motu m4 and hooking a topping l30 or l50?, I have senns HD 6XX, love em', and i have experienced what you're talking about mixing and listening fairly loud, personally prefer the 83 db mark and yes they respond really well compared to my kali lp6 mk2 (I personally think those headphones are meant to be heard loud, as they are somewhat dark).
Kali's are really clean compared to a pair of jbl's I had, lots of headroom, in fact, with them I understood what clean headroom means (you can crank them and they still sound clean). This is the thing I'm wondering with my headphones, if headroom from the motu preamp is holding em' from being cleaner, and as reviews says they scale well with good preamps... Would that be a good investment then?
Try the L30ii with the motu first. If your not hearing the difference in transients and linearity then give a dac amp like a topping dx3 pro+ or dx5 a try. Or get the flagship dx7 pro+ like me then you'll truly hear a difference
I've still to have anybody come back to me and say that they weren't impressed with the L30ii in comparison to their interface hp amp.
Id try the L30ii first and see how the motu DAC fairs
@@PaulThird Yes, even tho I have read that motu's M2/M4 hp preamp is good (or one of the best for the price point) and DAC converters are ESS sabre (which I think is great), but yeh I think a stand alone preamp for what my sennheisers are would be noticeble for power and headroom. Btw any real difference between L30ii vs L50?, or too close to tell and better go with L30ii. Does L50 balance input makes anything different? (can't find more reasons between them)
L30ii is like top of the tree. Anything better than that is purely specs for the sake of numbers. L30ii can do everything you would ever need from a headphone amp
@@PaulThird thanks man, It's always good to see things objectively. 👍
Hi Paul, enjoying your channel. As a fellow Scots tight a*** I tried for ages to squeeze good results out if cheap gear (with some success) but during the pandemic when I stepped up my home recording I got increasingly frustrated with how my mixes transferred outside of my studio. After trying a more modern interface with a good reputation for DA conversion (which wasn’t cheap) but didn’t get on with my computer. I ended doing the same as you and (using finance) I upgraded to the RME Fireface UCXII interface you pictured plus some Adam monitors. It was an expensive outlay but the difference in terms of what I can hear in my mixes and the transparency of the conversion is night and day. My conclusion is that with patience and a lot of referencing and moving your mix round different audio systems you can definitely get good results but it is so much easier and efficient to be able to hear issues straight away as you can with better gear. Keep up the good content, much appreciated!
My experience is the same. I did my first mix this week listening at 80-85db with the dx7 pro+ using the least amount of plugins I've ever used and my mastering engineers told me that the mix I produced was such a big improvement, even from the mix I made fixing my tilt
Hello. I would like to ask you as a professional... My set of audio recordings is LCD GX +Apogee Duet 2 + Realphones, I also have an Audient iD 4, and I compared how the headphones sound with other audio interfaces. In my opinion, the Apogee sounds shriller and cleaner and funnier... But, I am not a professional, but you are a person trusted by 20,000 subscribers and I would like to ask you for advice on mixing in headphones. I haven't gotten used to the sound yet, as I bought my setup a week ago... Do I need to look for another audio interface or is Apogee Duet a good choice?
I would say go for another interface. Output impedance is 30 ohm which is high and the specs are super vague. Combine the 2.. never a good sign but It's a 12 year old interface tbf so I wouldnt be expecting high quality headphone performance anyway. Even your prisms and auroras had shit headphone amps.
I would personally either get a headphone amp or a new interface
@@PaulThird thanks for the answer. can you tell me which headphone amplifier I can consider for mixing for no more than 300 £… It would be desirable that I could hear the difference in sound between this amplifier and Duet 2... :)
Topping l30ii
@@PaulThird thank you 🙏
Do I also need a DAC from Topping? Or can I take the signal from the Apogee duet and feed it to the Topping L30? That is, if I understand correctly, the DAC in Apogee is quite good and the problem is only in the headphone amplifier, which in Apogee has too high an impedance?
Could you do a quick vid about how to actually use the Topping L30II? I would either be using it with an audio interface (apollo) or straight from laptop... I can't find any instructions anywhere online about this. Do you need a separate DAC or does the L30II have a DAC in it??
No DAC. Line outs of interface to RCA in of topping
Will the dx7 pro + make a difference put against the apollo twin x converters for studio monitors and headphones monitoring alike?
I'm gonna say yes, purely because there arent many DAC/headphone amp combos that measure as good as the dx7 pro+ or RME. But that's my guess regarding an apollo, not an actual tested opinion BUT I do plan on testing that out with Ed early in the year when I go to London
I have a Clarett+ 2Pre and a set of Neumann NDH-30 phones. Upgrading from Scarlett 2i2.
Do I really need a headphone amp as well? Which would blow the Clarett away?
If you are mixing predominantly on the NDH-30 I'd say yes
I could watch your videos all day long Paul. The headphone amp was something that had never even crossed my mind until now.
🤓🤓
Hi Paul, I understand the recording setup and the mixing setup, but since I use only samples libraries ,could I use the mixing setup all the time? Thank you for the great work you do.
Yeah
@@PaulThird Sold. My latest track won a special prize on Hofa competition and was played live on BBC radio,if I can improve my skill with this setup then lets try. All the best.
@@PaulThird thank you Paul, you made my wallet cry, its on the way.. Appreciate your attention.
@@PaulThird got the amp Paul, a bit concerned about loosing audio quality for conecting a balanced out to an unbalanced amp, did you noticed any problems with ur setup? Thank you once again.
Nope. RCA to TS and I always heard a considerable improvement
Great vid. Entertaining and smart. You are wise beyond your years.
🤜🤛
Hi Paul, how are you aware/measuring the dB output of headphones? Also i had a Topping and it blew up within 4 weeks :(
Spl meter
@@PaulThird Hi Paul,
Im going to push the button on a DX3 Pro+ but just wondering what was the contributing factor for you to go DX7pro+?
Dx7 pro+ measures the best. It's the only DAC on audio science review that measures better than RME.
If I was gonna invest in the topping range then I was gonna get the best.
Dx3 pro+ is let down by its headphone amp as it doesn't really like low impedance phones which for guys like me with sundaras, wouldn't really be great
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-dx3-pro-review-dac-headphone-amp.27148/
Check it out for yourself. Measures extremely well. DAC SINAD is still very good and measures same as apollo x16 but its still not the full package when compared to dx7 pro+. Dx7 pro+ is pound for pound the best value in my personal opinion.
Dx7 pro+ shatters all their records and as a full DAC/headphone amp combo.. Its pretty hard to beat. I know RME guys that are having a glance haha
But it is still arguably pushing into the realm of finite details but if I'm gonna be sticking to headphones then I want to ensure I've got the best.
I've not heard a DAC as good as the dx7 pro+. They put their own converter circuit in it and honestly even the apollo x6 with the l30 mk2 can't give me the detail and seperation of the dx7 pro+. I spent at least 2 hours just comparing back and forth haha
did you bay yours ar Apos USA? how long was the shipping?
I ebayed mine for the PayPal credit
Please explain how you can measure 85db listening level on a headphone?
th-cam.com/users/shorts4i1LelGJhK4?feature=share
@@PaulThird Thank you I didn't think of that!
Did you ever review the Jet dynamic eq by Acustica Audio?
Nah. No interest to me
@@PaulThird 👍🏾
Im use a grace m900. Its a $700 DAC. Its 0 ohm output, 4 different DAC filters. You are correct,. Its night and day.
🤓🤓
Good video, Paul. It’s the same conclusion I’ve arrived at. Have you ever read Nwavguy’s site? He details the creation of his odac and O2 amp.
Audeze headphones are something I always found strange when I’ve heard them. I’ve heard some electrostat setups at Axpona that were great but I only liked them maybe 5% more than using the Nwavguy stuff with a K701.
There was some RME interface that measured about as well or better than the Hilo.
Great to see you posting the data about impedance. These companies could all just try to integrate the O2 approach so low and high impedance phones will work well. Instead they don’t usually bother to tell us much of anything about the headphone section.
You’re doing everyone a big favor with the advice you gave here.
🤓🤓
Thanks for the video. How do you measure 80-85 db in your headphones? :-)
You can do it with your phone and a db app but I've got an SPL meter coming tomorrow so I'm gonna see if the phone method is off by much but it gets you in the ball park
@@PaulThird Oh great ... Looking forward to hearing your result 🙂
Can you not just use an Apollo interface to run your headphones through? Also what are the best headphones for mixing you would recommend? I was looking at dt700 pro x and also focal clear mg pro I also seen a guy recommend hifiman sundara
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/universal-audio-apollo-twin-x-review-audio-interface.20456/
Dunno if it's good enough tbh. Maybe they sorted out the IMD hump in newer twin models 🤷♂️
I use sundaras as they were reccomended by one of my mentors who is arguably the biggest mix and mastering engineer in Turkey. He tried LCD-X and compared sundaras and preferred the hifiman. I have no complaints regarding the sundaras but they do need a bit of juice to power them to loud levels so just ensure whatever your listening through has the juice and ideally an output impedance of no more than 2 ohms
@@PaulThird I’ve always heard good reviews n seen them in a lot of studios so always thought I’d cop them but this video was good insight into some other options. Yeah I was thinking with the dt 700 pro x would be good also as they don’t need a big boost to run them apparently can use most audio interfaces but that is interesting that he recommended the sundaras I tried looking on TH-cam for some reviews in a mix mastering context but couldn’t find much. Was a video on TH-cam that informed me on them though.
Planars are better choice for mixing than dynamics but that's just my opinion. Planars have better low end and transient response
Andrew Scheps does with Sony MDR-7506.
Dx7 pro+ is a DAC + amp. Purely deals with the final digital to analog conversion, so the conversion from your daw/computer to your speakers/headphones. Nothing to do with recording as that is ADC.
You can link it to other interfaces if they can send the digital signal via optical/coaxial spdif so you can use their ADC, mixer software and convert the digital signal anc output with the DAC/amp
I've not found any DAC/amp as good as the dx7 pro+ and I've even compared it to the apollo x6 with the topping l30 mk2.
If you want the full package then unfortunately I can only advise a pretty expensive option in the RME but it is pretty much the full package in regards to ADC, DAC & headphone amp quality in one interface.
If you want the plugin dsp and unison preamps then an apollo twin in conjunction with an L30ii would be a pretty good shout. The apollo headphone amps aren't great but their ADC & DAC is very high quality.
Is getting a good pair of headphones together with the topping L30ii and Presonus Revelator io24 good enough to start mixing on headphones? I had quiet a few difficulties understanding everything in context that was mentioned in the video since im fairly new to this topic. This gear will replace a high end soundcard from what gathered now, is this correct? Or is a good external soundcard still needed and the earlier mentioned gear is putting in some extra work in that chain?
For mixing get the best interface you can, pair that with the L30ii and then invest in a good pair of headphones. Don't slouch on the headphones
@@PaulThird Thanks for the quick response, it warms my heart to get that info. Do you have any recommendations for the audio interface if its only for monetoring with headphones?
Audient id14 mk2 is a good shout cause it has good specs on the line out and keeping costs down
@@PaulThird thank you very much!
sooo. I also can just buy a RME Interface like ( RME Fireface UCX II) ? and dont use a Headphone amp? for like the Audeze mm 500?... / how can i measure how loud my Headhpones are? is it only possible with the Topping DX7? .. sorry iam pretty new to the Mixing on Headphones stuff
If you want the best possible outcome for your current interface, buy a topping l30ii, if you want the best outcome as a one stop shop, buy the topping dx7 pro+ or RME ADI 2 pro FS. If you want to measure loudness of headphones, place an SPL meter in between the cups as a rough guide
@@PaulThird so If i Match the l30ii with the focusrite 8i6 3gen (1ohm) it will be the best Budget choice.
I'd say a better option would be to get a topping dx3 pro+ and connect it to focusrite spdif out. So go coax in of topping to coax spdif out of focusrite.
That way you can use the amp and the DAC via digital connection and still use your focusrite. L30ii will only give you access to the amp and rely on the focusrite DAC as a bottleneck
@@PaulThird thanks for sharing your knowledge :) okay i will check this stuff out. i also will sell the most of my Headphones, i think i just will keep the HD 650..
Wich Hifiman should i buy for mixing/ muik making? because the audeze are freaking horrible in price. HifiMAN Sundara?
@drcross what's your budget
Hi @PaulThird Do You know AudioGD DAC and amplifiers?
Nope
@@PaulThird Check them if You Can, Amazing. Giancarlo from AA said me that they are the best. I don't know if they are the best but for sure they are Amazing
What your thoughts on Topping D90 + A90 stack with balanced XLR cables, im planning on getting lcd x I’m a music producer
Just get dx7 pro+. Best conversion and headphone amp wise all the power you will ever need. No need to stack