In 1959 my mother and I plus 2 of her girlfriends, one of which had a daughter who was my age, all flew on a Trans Ocean Airlines Stratocruiser to Honolulu Hawaii from LAX. At a point in the journey that was just short of the Point of no return, the plane had an issue with pressurization and we turned around and flew to Oakland International Airport. We were stuck there for several hours while the leaky Emergency exit window was repaired. My mothers friends daughter and I enjoyed a free tour of San Francisco and Fishermen's Warf by bus to kill some time, while our folks enjoyed cocktails at the airports bar. In all, we flew to LAX on a Western Airlines Lockheed Electra early in the morning, changing planes around lunchtime in LA and eventually we were on our way across the Pacific. After our forced stay in Oakland we arrived in Honolulu the following morning at round 7:00 AM. That was quite the long day. But I have the memory of that flight imbedded in my memory to this day. I also recall my mother saying at first sight of the Stratocruiser, Holy $#%@ ! is that a huge plane.
Only 60 Stratocruisers were built. They were built for the high-end passengers, mainland to Hawaii and destinations east. They were fast but expensive to operate. The P&W Wasp Major had reliability issues. I worked on the R-4360 in the Air Force. Only about 15% of the engines made it to the mandatory 2000 hour engine change.
From the various accidents that I read about regarding the Stratocruisers I realized their engines were not very reliable like other radials of the day.
@@JetFlix As in other radials of the day were reliable? R-3350 TC's on Connie's and DC-7's seldom, if ever, lasted to TBO. In flight engine shutdowns were routine. Only the lowly R-2800 on the DC-6, Convair and Martin piston airliners might be considered reliable. I think the 377's propellers were another source of trouble, as in the Pan Am flight 6 ditching.
@@jimandmandy C-54 of MATS let us down. Engine troubles caused a two week stay on Kwajalein Atoll while they got another engine and had it installed. R2000-9 engines. Likely the cause of one that crashed after taking off from there 6 years earlier.
@@jimandmandy it was common to have 1 of 4 engines shut down during a flight. Pilots expected a failure often. I flew here and turbo props for an airline and never lost San engine over my entire career.
I flew on a Pan Am Stratocruiser in May of ‘60 from Honolulu to Manila International with stops at Wake Island and Guam. I was 11 yrs then and got to sleep in one of the berths.
Hello Henry, pleased to see you on this presentation. I’m a former VARIG’s captain and flew the Electras in the Shuttle Service between CGH SDU v.v. in 1985. I’m the proud owner of a copy of your lovely picture of PP-VJW flying over Tramandaí- South Brazil. Wishing you all the best and now looking for others of your presentations.
Thank you very much for your lovely comments on my coverage of the VARIG Electras and Ponte Aerea operation. This was the aviation highlight of my life I would say. I met many great people who worked for VARIG back in the late 1980s and early 1990s and it’s just too bad the L-188s are gone and the airline is gone. Sending you my best regards from Vancouver Canada
One of the Trans Ocean 377s lingered on at Oakland, parked on what I think was the NAS Oakland. The passenger door was open and an air stair was in place. According to the owner of a surplus business located in two ex-Navy buildings, no one had been back since the plane was parked. Well of course we had to check it out. Everything was in place, props, cowlings hatch covers and there was air in the tires. The interior looked at first glance as if it was waiting for the cleaning crew. There were no supplies in the lounge or the galley. Passenger seats were wide and thick and seat pitch was generous compared to modern jets. The flight deck had impressive thickly padded leather seating for the pilot and copilot. Most of the panel was intact (except of course the clock and compass were missing). The flight controls worked, though it was weird to hear the cables rub under the floor down the length of the cabin. Little things that stood out included the cut outs for the relief tube in the pilot and co pilot seats. The astrodome for celestial navigation and the large panel for the flight engineer. But you couldn't help but look out at the wings and engines and think, B-29 and loud. Years later I met a pilot on the Hawaiian run, and he said that the Strato Cruiser was the archetype collection of parts waiting for an accident. Anyway, I was glad to have seen one still in flyable condition.
Hello Norcal, thank you for sharing these amazing observations from your onboard visit to the Strat. The last comment about it being an accident waiting to happen was interesting. As several were lost, due to various engine problems being the common factor. The Strats served from 1949 to 1960. And then they were done forever.
@@dongmo1 You are correct, but in the moment B-29 was what came to mind. Possibly because my cousin crewed a B-29 in Korea and because of TV programs like Victory at Sea. I don't recall ever seeing a B-50 anywhere.
B-29 and B-50 wings are more or less the same. I looked into that a year ago, when researching how many B-29's remain, and just as brain candy, I started looking around & seeing if I could scrounge enough parts to possibly build an airworthy B-29...and, I actually found enough airframe parts, along with a set of 3350's!
Didn't read through all the comments, but there is a C97G Stratofreighter (the military cargo version) parked outside the Don Q Inn on Wisconsin Highway 23 just outside of Dodgeville, WI. This is the same aircraft that was featured, along with model Farrah Fawcett-Majors and a live cougar, in the Mercury Cougar ad, and still bears the Mercury Cougar emblem on the nose along with Farrah's signature on the fuselage . The aircraft was flown into the site in 1977, landing on a specially-extended runway of the Dodgeville airport located just north of the Inn, and has been in situ since then.
Henry, Some history for you. My dad graduated from Aero-Tech in 1949 (a 2-year A/E school on the North Field, OAK Airport - Yes, A/E. Mechanics back then were called airframe and engine and now they are A/P or airframe and powerplant mechanics). He went to work for a friend Orvis Nelson in 1949-1953 at Transocean Air Lines (not Airways, TALOA). Orvis was the President. My dad met my mom at OAK's Pacific Airmotive Corp (P/W engine shop) in the early 50's got married and they both worked for PAC and TALOA. In 1959 my folks bought all of Pan Am's SFO back-shops: instruments/radios/accessories and moved it to OAK and started AAE in 1960. TALOA then bellied up and parked all of their Boeing 377s at the north end of North Field, east of RW 15/33 north of Hangar 9. As a kids, almost every weekend my folks worked at AAE and my friends and me would go to work with them on Sat. We would ride our bikes from my folks AAE Bldg L-729 and L-731 by Hangar 5 up to the Stratocruisers and crawl up in them and play in them all the time. No security fences existed on the field back then. My dad would come down the field and yell at us to climb out of them - next weekend we would be up in there pretend flying them again! After a few years, Mike Bogue (Power Pac Engineering) and others at OAK-NF got them flying to ferry out to Mojave / elsewhere and several of the TALOA 377's were used to support and build in the late 60's the famous Pregnant, Mini and then Super Guppy aircraft line. My play airplanes were then gone!
What an amazing memory you have. Thank you so much for taking the time to share so we could all see this. You are very lucky of your parents involvement with this fascinating airline.
In the early 50s, I was taken by my parents to London airport ( now Heathrow), where I saw my first stratocruiser. I was so excited to see this beautiful aircraft. Its been my favourite aircraft ever since.
Yes, it was such a unique airplane us. It was a double Dekker and it was huge by the standards of the 1950s. And for this reason, it formed impressive memory on many a young plane spotter of the day, including yourself.
These colour transparencies of Stratocruisers are stunning, though sad. I always find it poignant to see aircraft permanently grounded, whether they are perfectly preserved, as Concorde at Manchester airport, or wrecked like these ones. As a child I had a 1950s boys' annual with a feature on the Stratocruiser. I was fascinated with it - and still am. I never saw a Stratocruiser when spotting at Manchester Airport - they were before my time. I remember Viscounts, Vanguards, DC3s, Bristol Britannias - by the way there is a part-preserved Bristol Britannia at the former Speke Airport in Liverpool. I am a very big fan of your Thursday Vancouver stream and it was great to see you on your visit to Manchester. I'd love to go to Vancouver - not really feasible at the moment! Thanks for everything you do!
Thank you for the great comment Aidan very much appreciated. I was so happy to briefly visit Manchester and Liverpool a few weeks ago. You are lucky to have your Vangaurd, Viscount and Britannia memories from MAN. These slides of Stratocruisers were in a slide collection I acquired and had to be shared.
There is still a C-97G (now configured as a KC-97, never operated by CA Air National Guard as such) at Fox Field. My mother flew aboard this aircraft as a flight nurse and my father flew it as an aircraft commander. Recently acquired his log books and he flew 53-0272 many times. Mainly to Hawaii and Vietnam.
What a wonderful find. On Oct. 27, 1953 I boarded Pan Am clipper N1029V in Frankfort to Boston. I have the manifest as well as the flight jacket for my trip to the USA. I became an Aircraft mechanic and worked in the industry for almost 50 years. Wonder what happened to "Clipper Golden Eagle" ??? Last known as belonging to Miami Air Charters.
The San Diego aerospace museum Gillespie Field facility has the nose cockpit section of a Northwest Boeing strato cruiser on display it is complete with all instrumentation and radio gear.
My understanding was that was a nose section of a C-97 that was painted to look like a NWA Stratocuiser….I hope that I am wrong. I’ll have to stop by the museum.
I was a young kid growing up in the '50s about 5 miles from Idlewild/Kennedy, and loved watching the DC-6/7s zipping around, Constellations galore, modified military Connies with their "submarine sails", flying box-cars flying in and out of Mitchell Field (later Hofstra University). I saw my first 707 on Halloween, 1958 sweeping in for a landing on Runway 31R. I have no memory of ever having seen a Stratocruiser, either in the air or on the ground. In fact I first learned of their existence reading a Dennis the Menace comic book (about a trip to Hawaii), while we were flying of a Northwest DC-6, Flight 55, Newark Airport to Portland, Oregon. (Approx. 13 hours, stopping in Pittsburg, Detroit, Chicago, Spokane, on to Portland).
Thank you for taking the time to share your amazing memories from the 1950s. I really appreciate it and I’m sure others here will enjoy seeing it as well. You’re lucky to have these memories .. you were born at the right time to have experienced the golden age of airline travel. I was 2 decades too late to experience the Stratocruiser, but I did get to experience Viscounts and Vanguards and DC-8a here in Canada when I was growing up. I appreciate your support and thanks again.
What a fantastic video - thx for sharing this! As an avid Stratocruiser buff I can confirm never to have seen any of these shots before! Amazing stuff. Especially the one slide with TAL & NWA 377's together - wow... Just added yet another TAL Corgi model of the Stratocruiser to my own collection by the way ;-) Great work - good to see other people who love these amazing planes.
My Dad, Nick Bountis was one of the original maverick pilots at TALOA. The airlines was a close knit group of post WWII aviators. My Dad was a captain alongside Orvis Nelson, the founder. I remember flying on a Stratocruiser flown by my Dad from Oakland to HNL. Dad was stationed in Honolulu for a couple years so we moved west from the east coast and eventually ended up in the Bay Area where my Dad was stationed in Oakland. There is a book "Folded Wings" by Arue Szura which details the history of TALOA. As you mention in your video Transocean went bankrupt. The main reason being TALOA had established a significant presence in the Pacific as a non-scheduled airline. Their slogan, "We'll fly anything, any place, anytime" cut into Pan AM's business worldwide. Pan American didn't want the competition and pushed regulation to prohibit non-scheduled airlines from flying the same routes. PAN AM was relentless and TALOA was not able to survive. Many of the captains were hired on by Lufthansa and JAL. My Dad went to Lufthansa as Chief Pilot. The original pilots, crew and staff of TALOA remained close and celebrated annual reunions for over 50 years which included children and grandchildren. They were an amazing airline and hold an important place in aviation history.
Thank you for these amazing comments so fascinating to hear. And in one of my videos I stated that the acronym TALOA must mean something and I’ve read that book that you’re referring to cover to cover several times and I never found out what the hell that means .. it’s a mystery beyond the great pyramids UFOs and Sasquatch all combined! If you could, please tell me what the heck TALOA stands for ..that would be amazing. It’s actually painted on the side of the Transocean aircraft but in the year 2023 mystery persists.
@@JetFlix Thanks for your kind words. If my memory is right I think I read somewhere TALOA stands for "Transocean AirLines Oakland Airport". I still have contacts with other daughters of TALOA pilots and will ask them for confirmation.
The Stratocruiser with bashed nose was N402Q. The damage was due to a collision with another Stratocruiser (N90942) in August, 1967 (see Aviation Safety Network accident database) I seem to recall that N90942 was on the take-off run, lost control for some reason, and struck N402Q.
Thanks really enjoyed that it's so sad to think these beautiful aircraft where flown there and then just left... If I had been their taking those photos I would have had to go on board and take interior photos I would have risked it for sure.... Thanks from the UK 🇬🇧
Me too!!! I would love to see what the interiors looked like. It would be an amazing time machine view. And I did just that when I visited the parked TWA Convair 880s at Mojave in the 1980s. I have a slide of myself sitting in a seat in the cabin.
My dad was stationed at Rhine Main AFB West Germany 1969 -1971. Air gaurd units were operating kc 97s on constant rotations. These planes were maintained well and offered excellent service.
NW traded their 377's to Lockheed Burbank on a one on one basis as the 188's were delivered. After the March 1960 loss of N121US, the deliveries from Lockheed were halted pending the re-working and modification of the existing aircraft in the LEAP program of 1961. As the final 188's were delivered the 377's went on to Lockheed. As usual, thanks for the memories!
The quality of these Kodachrome images is still superb after all these years. I think the emergency exit doors were removed to improve ventilation within the airplane so that workers could operate within them without sweating off about 18 lbs. each. Unfortunately, this no doubt encouraged bird nesting inside. Great video.
Kodachrome was a truly amazing product. I have slides from my childhood 50 or so years old that look like they were shot yesterday. They are the time capsules of film.
Thank you very much for your comments. I appreciate it and I’m glad you agree that the quality of the images was very high. Kodachrome is the highest quality of slide film available. There is a lot of debate as to the reasons why the emergency exits were removed. You’ll see tons of comments with many different views I guess we’ll never know for certain.
I went to the California 1000 air races at Mojave in 1971 explored the planes, interiors were still intact, sleeping bunks and seats were still in the airplane. still sitting on landing gear and most of the instruments remained in cockpit. Prop and engines were still in position.
In November 1954 my dad and I flew from Chicago to MSP on a Northwest Stratocruiser returning from my Grandfathers funeral in Mississippi. It was a memorable beast with pullman style bunks that lowered from the ceiling where the bins are on modern aircraft. The stewardess took me on a tour of the plane including the lower level lounge. I was ten at the time, but remember it like it was today. We were being served breakfast and hit some turbulence and there were scrambled eggs all over. The trip included a DC 3 and Convair 340 (Delta C & S) and a DC 4 (NWA) on four legs from Greenwood MS to Billings, Montana.
Wow, what fabulous memories you have from that sad trip to the funeral in 1954. Not too many people can remember their Stratocruiser flights. I was born in 1964 so it was well before my time. My memories are on Air Canada, Viscounts and Vanguards and TCA to various operators here in Canada. Thanks for your wonderful comments, and thanks for sharing them
I just came across this. Thank you for putting up these slides. It's a true moment in time. My wifi connection has been playing up so I haven't seen a clip I passed a moment ago that seemed to show a Stratocruiser go through a cycle of takeoff & landing in 2019 & featuring the same North West livery. Very interesting episode thanks again.
@@JetFlix Im from NZ & I have always loved reading all sorts of subjects & very early on planes captured my attention & because it's nice to dream also I'll occasionally look up the site "hanger67". A.couple of planes I drool over are our old NZ airforce alumni, the A4 Skyhawk & the BAC Strikemaster, both of which are for sale this very moment, sigh. Then again also onsite is another fav, the Douglas AD4 Skyraider, A7 Vought Corsair, Saab Draken (Viggen's better) etc etc. In essence, there are so many types & models of aircraft that capture our attention & create some feeling of longing or awe or nostalgia within us simply by seeing or hearing them, a childhood model maybe, that when they come with an intriguing or emotive story also they remain forever a part of our fascination. As a kid there was a big triangle shaped junkyard that had a simple wire fence around it within bicycle distance. It was actually some guys personal "stuff" collection rather than being an operating junkyard, but as a kid all I saw was fascinating old stuff & my imagination would be off & running. There was old farm equipment, bulldozers, cars, trucks....but right in the middle was a DC3, the most amazing site for a young kid. After discovering the "junkyard" it wasn't long before progress claimed it unfortunately & where that old plane went & how I'll never know. A few years later I saw tucked away in the middle of nowhere, parked up next to some guys garage sans wings & similarly about to cause my imagination to run rampant, was an ex NZ Airforce Bristol Freighter. These things would do the run up to Vietnam & Malaya previous to that when our troops were serving during those 1950's & 60's conflicts. Seeing as how the Bristol freighter almost looks like a flying tadpole with its "2 storey" flight deck & wouldn't usually stimulate any type of longing I think it was knowing my uncle did 2 tours of Vietnam & so most likely at some time also endured what must have been an interminable island hopping flight from NZ up to Vietnam & Phuoc Tuy province in one these planes if not that very one before boarding a truck or chopper & ending at Nui Dat camp where our field troops were based. 25 or 30 years later I lived not close by exactly but also not too far relatively speaking from that middle of nowhere property & still as intrigued as I was at about 12 years old I took a drive to see if it was still around & to my surprise & the rekindling of my rampant imagination it was, albeit dirtier & overgrown by weeds it was still there. I apologise that this has rambled on much like a freighter flight to "Nam" in the 60's so I'll just say while I had dreams of buying or at least saving that plane from scrapping I could never find anybody around or any reply to notes left in the mailbox & only heard at most from immediate locals that the guy living there was a bit of a recluse & so it seemed. I'd still check it's existence on the few times I'd be out that way to "nowhere in particular if you don't live right there" which I rightly didn't technically, literally or exactly reside at, only my hope that yet another piece of history wouldn't be scrapped for convenience sake kept me making those trips with fingers crossed until the last when I came across only a cleared site & a new house being built. The last time I had any information was when my partner forwarded me a link to an obscure article which explained that the owner of the property had passed away & his surviving sister & brother in law got the section cleared of all the overgrowth & thankfully recognised the significance of the plane & a club or enthusiasts had either purchased it or the plane was donated to be preserved & hopefully put on display with replacement wings, mock wings or wingless as the case may be, but it did survive & I also could put my personal, quiet, low level obsession away satisfactorily when I knew what the outcome was. How do we come to be interested or fascinated in all or in certain aircraft? Would you believe me if I said I had no idea? These are merely two instances in my youth but there were actually many pinches of my "interest with planes" nerve in hindsight & yet I would not have been looked on as or would ever have described myself as primarily an aero enthusiast because I've had similar fascinations or nostalgia with trucks, trains, ships, motorbikes, military, cars as well as every subject I could take an interest in really & if a person is curious about things there can be many. It maybe also helps never really having just enough money to own & also pay for the required ongoing upkeep of a costly interest which could possibly dull the enthusiasm & romanticisms we feel for those interests which had captured our imaginations. But the reality is that the whole field of aviation is not only an interesting topic for me it is branded within my feelings & a subject thats not difficult in the least for me to be passionate about. Thank you & I'll look forward to more on your channel. All the best...🛫
WONDERFUL! I just love shots of scrapped aircraft esp. around the desert locations in the US in the 609s and 70s. I remember the TV cop show 'Canon' (Detective Frank Canon) in the 70s I guess had a few scenes shot among the scrapped 377s and Mojave.
I was at the Mojave Air Races around 1970 and there a couple of C-97's and C-133's owned by the Foundation for Airborne Relief and one Stratocruiser that was painted in Aerospace Lines livery, the builders of the Guppies. The Stratocruisers in this video may have been at another location at Mojave or at Fox.
In the early 80s a bunch of KC-97s were sold and some wound up in cargo service like fish haulers in AK. The Air Force may have bought some of the tails to keep the fleet flying until retirement. Some also hauled fuel out to the remote AK villages. Many of the internal tanks for fuel were recycled into DC-6s by Evert's in Anchorage. The cargo door mod may have been where the aircraft had to have civil certification for cargo rather than ex military.
Just to add to the wonderful post of these very rare aircraft... and confirm that "Conroy" that built the "Guppies" did not install that door. My pop... that passed last year, was the systems manager during the development of the Guppies... The Kirby's and the Conroy family are so very proud of the work that produced some amazing aircraft... that are still flying today! Much love!!
These NW B-377s were traded into Lockheed as partial payment for NW's L-188 Electra's. When the NW Tell City crash took place on March 17, 1960, Donald Nyrop initially demanded they "undo" the deal, and return these aircraft. He was talked out of it. The presenter incorrectly claims these aircraft were replaced by Boeing 707s. NW initially purchased DC-8-32s. After receiving Boeing 720-051s in 1961 and liking their performance, NW sold their DC-8s to National and ordered and received their first 707-351Bs in 1963.
Joined the ANG in 1968 and flew on a C-54 to McClellan AFB, in Sacramento CA., then a KC97 to Lackland AFB, in San Antonio. I can still remember the bounced landing that had several of the aircrew looking a little nervous until it settled on the runway. I also remember the loudly squawking brakes…
Great video. When I used to live in Tucson years ago it was always neat to go through some of the airplane graveyards there and wonder what kind of stories the planes could tell.
Fascinating video! I’m in the area of the Mojave AP. Have witnessed lots of military and Steve Fossett aircraft in the sky up to Space X crash. So many new aircraft in Mojave and Victorville on the ground.
I remember in the early '70s seeing the military variant of the 337 parked at the Van Nuys, CA airport. It may have been from the ANG, as they had a presence there at the time. The Guppy and Super Guppy were common sights at the Van Nuys Airport in the '60s and early '70s as well.
The good 'ol 146th TAW! Back in the '90's, they got their own base, and moved from Van Nuys, out near Port Hueneme. Some of the old ANG hangars at Van Nuys are still there, though some were demolished during a huge re-model at the airport. I remember seeing the Super Guppy's at Long Beach on occasion, moving stuff for Douglas Aircraft, in the early-mid '80's.
I worked in the Guppy program for awhile and as I remember it we removed the wings from the military version of the C-97 located in the aircraft graveyard in Tucson, Arizona. This was in the 80's in Goleta, California. The wings were reinforced of course to compensate for the size of the Guppy.
As I produce videos like this one that you were watching, I’m wondering if you have any photos or slides that you could share with or gift to me so that I could use to make a similar video on the Guppy … if you have any film content, movies, promotional materials I’d love to hear from you.
Henry: NWA had 10 strrats N74601 - N74610. N74607 had fire in MSP maint and was W/O then ferried to MIA corrosion corner. N74608 ditched in Puget Sound due to severe vibration and drag due to FE failing to adjust cowl flaps from fully open after takeoff.
Wow... 42V @ 16:28 looks like she'd be good to go with a few salvaged pieces from around her, and some oil. A lot of oil, a small tanker truck full of 50wt, and spark plugs... somebody's gonna have to go back and get a s#!t load of sparkplugs!! Thanks for sharing this! I'm a new subscriber now!
My father was sole proprietor of Engravers Unlimited located on Long Beach Airport. He built the instrument panels for the guppies. Interestingly enough, only hundreds of feet east on Spring street. There was Foley's Aircraft. Dan's son, became one of my best friends to this day. Dan Foley Sr. Has passed, but Dan Foley III is alive and well, now living in Coos Bay Oregon, about 300 miles south from where I now live in Napavine WA. I also knew Ken Brock, my mother was an employee of K.B. Enterprises. Just tidbits...
Fascinating historical tid bits thank you so much for sharing. If you have any Aero Soace Lines slides, models or historical data I could use for a video please let me know.
I was surprised & curious why you didn’t mention that one of the Stratocruisers had round windows vs squared windows. When & why was the window-shape an option? I’ve read rounded windows are stronger than square windows.
I love the enlarged Air Canada Viscount at the end. I loved watching the Viscounts and Vanguards at my local airport (YQR), and also on approach or departure over my parents' house, which was two miles from the airport. I noticed an interesting thing about the Pan Am Stratocruiser in that it has porthole windows instead of rectangular ones as on the Northwest and Transocean planes. Also, I never could understand why airlines wanted to have their names painted over. In most cases it was still very obvious to planespotters. We know these planes weren't 'hull losses'.
I was stationed at Ramstein AB Germany in the early 70's flying the F4-E. We refueled from the KC97-L which was a 377 with jets on the wings. The air guard flew them and they could indicate 220kts with the jets running.
Yes I have seen old images of KC97s drogue refuelling F4s. There was a speed mismatch between the two types. The KC-135 was much better suited to the task. Did you ever take 35mm color slides while inflight .. of other aircraft you were in close formation with?
I fondly remember the Illinois Air National Guard flying those KC97L's out of Chicago's O'Hare Field. You'd first hear the sound of the four P&W R-4360 engines followed by the loud roar of the J-47 jet engines suspended near the wingtips. I believe the Illinois Air Guard transitioned to the KC-135s about 1974.
The Trans Ocean livery (15:30) cleverly disguised the double chinned, double hull of the Stratocruiser giving it a more modern appearance, and even showing the little bit of nose the craft actually did have. This achieved by running the wide, lighter buff color right down to the belt line and having the darker band above. By doing this, yo didn't see the belt line within a field of color or aluminum. It disappears as it's the boarder of the buff stripe. A very clever use of color and illusion.
I remember watching a tv show in the late 60's or early 70's where these aircraft were seen in an episode. I think it may have been "Cannon" a private investigator/crime drama.
Hi, What interesting historic slides. You mentioned the removal of the vertical stabilisers, I'm not sure if this counts, but based on a very realistic Stratocruiser on my flight simulator, the vertical stabiliser used to fold down flat onto the horizontal stabilizer in order to allow the aircraft to access the maintainance hangers of the day because they were too tall. I guess that makes them a very easy part to remove and use on other aircraft. Also one of the reasons the Lockheed Constillation had that strange three rudder design, because the rudder was smaller and so allowed access to hangers................so I believe. Great photos though, all the best Dave.
In my collection of model aircraft built from plastic kits, are three Boeing Stratocruiser airliners. One is in the paint scheme of Trans Ocean another is decaled for Pan American (Pan Am) while a third model has American Overseas Airlines livery. These are in my preferred scale of 1/72. Still after all these years from when I first assembled these from plastic Kits, my enthusiasm and strong liking for these representatives from the Golden Age of Air Travel has never waned.
I spent the first 10 years of my life on Air Force bases. (1952-1963) My father (MSGT James Herman Clay) was a flight engineer on the KC-97. My sister and i attended multiple air shows on base and took walk thru tours several times. Such a beautiful aircraft. Families gathered at the end of the runways when dad's squadron returned from TDY. Such wonderful memories watching these magnificent planes return from Goose Bay or The Azores or North Africa. I have a model in my living room. My dad retired rather than retrain for the KC 135.
Thank you Jimmy for sharing the awesome memories that you have from your early years when your dad was on these monsters of the sky (in military uniform, of course). That’s what makes my channel so rewarding for me .. Hearing from people that have happy memories from the videos. it’s wonderful. I’m wishing you all the best and thanks for commenting my video.
Henry painting out the logos is usually done by the airline to protect their image it is not required. When I was involved with lease return we painted out logos using rollers. I met with Mike Potter (ex TWA) who ran the Mojave facility. I am sure the storage facility would pain out the logos for a FEE.
Wow these are really rare and I have never seen any image of the stored Northwest Stratocruisers that were traded to Lockheed for the Electras. One of these birds - I believe N74603 - made its way to Tucson international and was relatively intact until the early 1980s, so quite a while after all of these Mojave birds were scrapped. I grew up in Minneapolis, which was one of the last strongholds of Strat service. As others pointed out below, after the crash of Northwest flight 710 in March, 1960, NW un-retired its eight remaining Strats and grounded the Electras. NW flew about six trips a day MSP-MDW in the summer 1960 high season, as well as multiple MSP-IDL trips with the Stratocruiser. Such a tragedy that these were scrapped, but thank you for posting the latest pictures of the NWA fleet I have ever seen. Anyone know how late the Israel Air Force flew the ex-Pan Am Strats that they took on?
Great comments thank you again Ryan. I did not know about the NW reactivation of the Strats in the summer of 1960. I think the Israeli Air Force operated the Strats into the early 1970s but I do not have details.
Fascinating presentation. Thanks! Sad to see what became of these long haul aircraft. A combination of the jets and not the best safety record shortened the airline life of the Strat...!
It's interesting to look at these old airplanes. I've often thought it would be a lot of fun to take one of these old airplanes and turn it into a house. I guess some people have done it - looks like it costs a LOT of money.
Hi I recently started watching your videos I so glad I saw this I wish they could have restored those planes ✈️ they were so nice and luxurious for the time they were out
I used to fly DC6 from fort Mcmurray alberta to resolute bay in the early and mid 70s that had 2800 double wasp engines 18 cylinders each Boeing stratocruisers were conceived in the late 1940s so these planes would have been considered obsolete by the mid 1970s good video
In Fort Lauderdale, someone took the fuselage of a strati cruiser and put it on a boat hull. It was a live-aboard! It is now at a museum at Lakeland Linder airport, where Sun and Fun aviation show is held.
I believe if I’m not mistaken, what you were referring to it was a Boeing 307 Stratoliner not a Boeing Stratocruiser that was used for this particular conversion.
Cleveland Ohio has a KC-97G at the I-X Center by the airport. It was going to be a restaurant but pandemic stopped that. The huge building had been assembly plant for B-29's and it was next best display aircraft. It had been flown by the Ohio National Air Guard. It was taken apart and moved to Cleveland over a 3 1/2 week period.
Yes, there are a number of military versions of this aircraft the KC-97 still around various airfields across the US ..which is nice. But I do not believe there is a single Boeing Stratocruiser in existence anywhere on planet earth in the year 2023 sadly.
The one with the damaged nose could be involved in this incident recorded on Wikipedia. “August 1967 An Aero Spacelines Stratocruiser 10-29 (N90942) suffered a ground collision with Stratocruiser 10-32 N402Q at Mojave, California; the aircraft was damaged beyond repair.”
There's something like this parked in front of a roadside motel, Don Q Inn, near Dodgeville, Wisconsin. We soent a nite there. It was flown in to small airport and parked near risf in front of motel.
Just a thought, with Mojave’s proximity to Hollywood could some of these have been used as sets for films? That could possibly explain some of the damages.
What killed the KC97 was the fact that top speed for the KC97 was 2-3 mph more than stall speed for the B47. Voila,, here comes the KC135. Still flying today.
The emergency exits were possibly removed for ventilation during the internal stripping of the salvageable parts. It would have been a tad warm for the workers in there under the desert sun.
Hi Henry, My name is also Henry and I live in Lancaster, CA and Fox Field is about a 7 minute drive from where I live. In fact, my house is just under the glide slope of planes using ILS approaches. My neighbor actually has a prop engine some years ago displayed in his front yard, who knows, maybe it was a stratocruiser engine???
Great to hear from you, Henry. I love comments like this. Yeah it would be nice to think that one of the props survives in a garden somewhere near the airport.
There's still one out at Fox. C-97G 53-0272 was flown by the CA Air National Guard. My father flew that actual aircraft and my mother flew aboard as a flight nurse.
I recall seeing a large number of these parked way out on a taxiway at Oakland International Airport as we arrived and left. Most of them appeared to be in United Airlines Paint scheme as well as PanAm.
Missing emergency exit doors were removed for ventilation. They were not interchangabble with tose on Guppy's and Superguppy's. The fuselages of those were built up from the lower lobe of the B-377 fuselage, so totally different.
I suggest the "unknown" 377 at 10:30 minutes in this video is also a Northwest plane, based on the paint livery on the exterior. Why were exit doors removed? I suggest to allow the dry desert air to permeate and preserve interiors along with exteriors.
So very true! Unfortunately, the appreciation of propliners as worthy of preservation in flying condition did not occur until the 1980s--many years after these Stratocruisers had been scrapped.
The saddest thing of all is that, considering there were only 55 built, that someone with the resources to do it didn't piece together a complete airframe from all the planes there and preserve it in a museum for future generations. There have been a few other examples of this: historically significant aircraft that were all scrapped and not a single airframe saved, one of the most glaring are the YB35/49 Flying Wings from Northrop.
I guess back in the 60s and 70s that just didn’t have the mindset that we have today about preserving aviation history. It’s a huge shame that Boeing couldn’t care less about the aircraft and did nothing back then.
That’s too bad but I think there’s quite a number of KC-97 and C-97’s at various museums across the United States that are sitting outside in the elements.
Just need to wait for the creation of a time machine. Who knows maybe it already exists .. hence all the UFO activity meddling with U.S. Navy flight operations.
If only they could be made to sound like a Tele...😁 Nice car!!! At first I thought it was an American '68-'70 Ford XL Sportsroof. But I checked out your channel and saw that it's an Australian Ford Landau.
Likely removed rudders and @ least in the latter photos, vertical fin to cut down on wind/weather caning. Boneyards such as this are voices of aircraft heard never again. At SAT on the northeast side of the airport, was a large collection of C82 Packets being reduced for scrap. In the 60s, they were a favorite hangout on a Saturday as we’d ride our bikes there and spend the day in the cockpits.
In 1959 my mother and I plus 2 of her girlfriends, one of which had a daughter who was my age, all flew on a Trans Ocean Airlines Stratocruiser to Honolulu Hawaii from LAX. At a point in the journey that was just short of the Point of no return, the plane had an issue with pressurization and we turned around and flew to Oakland International Airport. We were stuck there for several hours while the leaky Emergency exit window was repaired. My mothers friends daughter and I enjoyed a free tour of San Francisco and Fishermen's Warf by bus to kill some time, while our folks enjoyed cocktails at the airports bar. In all, we flew to LAX on a Western Airlines Lockheed Electra early in the morning, changing planes around lunchtime in LA and eventually we were on our way across the Pacific. After our forced stay in Oakland we arrived in Honolulu the following morning at round 7:00 AM. That was quite the long day. But I have the memory of that flight imbedded in my memory to this day. I also recall my mother saying at first sight of the Stratocruiser, Holy $#%@ ! is that a huge plane.
What a magnificent experience and wonderful memory. You are so lucky to have experienced this Stratocuiser travel adventure.
Sounds like quite a adventure.
Granted you’re family was very well off to afford such a trip.
You are very lucky to have experienced it.
@@jolu7019 your
Hope it's not too rude but i Enjoyed your story more than the video itself 😂
Only 60 Stratocruisers were built. They were built for the high-end passengers, mainland to Hawaii and destinations east. They were fast but expensive to operate. The P&W Wasp Major had reliability issues. I worked on the R-4360 in the Air Force. Only about 15% of the engines made it to the mandatory 2000 hour engine change.
From the various accidents that I read about regarding the Stratocruisers I realized their engines were not very reliable like other radials of the day.
@@JetFlix As in other radials of the day were reliable? R-3350 TC's on Connie's and DC-7's seldom, if ever, lasted to TBO. In flight engine shutdowns were routine. Only the lowly R-2800 on the DC-6, Convair and Martin piston airliners might be considered reliable. I think the 377's propellers were another source of trouble, as in the Pan Am flight 6 ditching.
@@jimandmandy C-54 of MATS let us down. Engine troubles caused a two week stay on Kwajalein Atoll while they got another engine and had it installed. R2000-9 engines. Likely the cause of one that crashed after taking off from there 6 years earlier.
@@jimandmandy it was common to have 1 of 4 engines shut down during a flight. Pilots expected a failure often. I flew here and turbo props for an airline and never lost San engine over my entire career.
@@jimandmandy Might that explain the lack of propellers on the planes in these photos?
I flew on a Pan Am Stratocruiser in May of ‘60 from Honolulu to Manila International with stops at Wake Island and Guam. I was 11 yrs then and got to sleep in one of the berths.
You are very lucky. What a great memory from your childhood.
As a schoolboy I flew in BOAC Strats between London and Bermuda.
Hello Henry, pleased to see you on this presentation.
I’m a former VARIG’s captain and flew the Electras in the Shuttle Service between CGH SDU v.v. in 1985.
I’m the proud owner of a copy of your lovely picture of PP-VJW flying over Tramandaí- South Brazil.
Wishing you all the best and now looking for others of your presentations.
Thank you very much for your lovely comments on my coverage of the VARIG Electras and Ponte Aerea operation. This was the aviation highlight of my life I would say. I met many great people who worked for VARIG back in the late 1980s and early 1990s and it’s just too bad the L-188s are gone and the airline is gone. Sending you my best regards from Vancouver Canada
One of the Trans Ocean 377s lingered on at Oakland, parked on what I think was the NAS Oakland. The passenger door was open and an air stair was in place. According to the owner of a surplus business located in two ex-Navy buildings, no one had been back since the plane was parked. Well of course we had to check it out. Everything was in place, props, cowlings hatch covers and there was air in the tires.
The interior looked at first glance as if it was waiting for the cleaning crew. There were no supplies in the lounge or the galley. Passenger seats were wide and thick and seat pitch was generous compared to modern jets.
The flight deck had impressive thickly padded leather seating for the pilot and copilot. Most of the panel was intact (except of course the clock and compass were missing). The flight controls worked, though it was weird to hear the cables rub under the floor down the length of the cabin. Little things that stood out included the cut outs for the relief tube in the pilot and co pilot seats. The astrodome for celestial navigation and the large panel for the flight engineer.
But you couldn't help but look out at the wings and engines and think, B-29 and loud.
Years later I met a pilot on the Hawaiian run, and he said that the Strato Cruiser was the archetype collection of parts waiting for an accident. Anyway, I was glad to have seen one still in flyable condition.
Hello Norcal, thank you for sharing these amazing observations from your onboard visit to the Strat. The last comment about it being an accident waiting to happen was interesting. As several were lost, due to various engine problems being the common factor. The Strats served from 1949 to 1960. And then they were done forever.
B-50 wing and engines, not B-29.
@@dongmo1 You are correct, but in the moment B-29 was what came to mind. Possibly because my cousin crewed a B-29 in Korea and because of TV programs like Victory at Sea. I don't recall ever seeing a B-50 anywhere.
B-29 and B-50 wings are more or less the same.
I looked into that a year ago, when researching how many B-29's remain, and just as brain candy, I started looking around & seeing if I could scrounge enough parts to possibly build an airworthy B-29...and, I actually found enough airframe parts, along with a set of 3350's!
B-29 didn't use R-4360 engines.
Didn't read through all the comments, but there is a C97G Stratofreighter (the military cargo version) parked outside the Don Q Inn on Wisconsin Highway 23 just outside of Dodgeville, WI. This is the same aircraft that was featured, along with model Farrah Fawcett-Majors and a live cougar, in the Mercury Cougar ad, and still bears the Mercury Cougar emblem on the nose along with Farrah's signature on the fuselage . The aircraft was flown into the site in 1977, landing on a specially-extended runway of the Dodgeville airport located just north of the Inn, and has been in situ since then.
So it's in Farrah condition 😅
DON Q is a unique place
It’s a theme room hotel
Look it up
Great place to visit
And yeah the plane is still
Gorgeous piece of metal
Does it have a leaky Fawcett.....@@JTA1961
Henry, Some history for you. My dad graduated from Aero-Tech in 1949 (a 2-year A/E school on the North Field, OAK Airport - Yes, A/E. Mechanics back then were called airframe and engine and now they are A/P or airframe and powerplant mechanics). He went to work for a friend Orvis Nelson in 1949-1953 at Transocean Air Lines (not Airways, TALOA). Orvis was the President. My dad met my mom at OAK's Pacific Airmotive Corp (P/W engine shop) in the early 50's got married and they both worked for PAC and TALOA. In 1959 my folks bought all of Pan Am's SFO back-shops: instruments/radios/accessories and moved it to OAK and started AAE in 1960. TALOA then bellied up and parked all of their Boeing 377s at the north end of North Field, east of RW 15/33 north of Hangar 9. As a kids, almost every weekend my folks worked at AAE and my friends and me would go to work with them on Sat. We would ride our bikes from my folks AAE Bldg L-729 and L-731 by Hangar 5 up to the Stratocruisers and crawl up in them and play in them all the time. No security fences existed on the field back then. My dad would come down the field and yell at us to climb out of them - next weekend we would be up in there pretend flying them again! After a few years, Mike Bogue (Power Pac Engineering) and others at OAK-NF got them flying to ferry out to Mojave / elsewhere and several of the TALOA 377's were used to support and build in the late 60's the famous Pregnant, Mini and then Super Guppy aircraft line. My play airplanes were then gone!
What an amazing memory you have. Thank you so much for taking the time to share so we could all see this. You are very lucky of your parents involvement with this fascinating airline.
In the early 50s, I was taken by my parents to London airport ( now Heathrow), where I saw my first stratocruiser. I was so excited to see this beautiful aircraft. Its been my favourite aircraft ever since.
Yes, it was such a unique airplane us. It was a double Dekker and it was huge by the standards of the 1950s. And for this reason, it formed impressive memory on many a young plane spotter of the day, including yourself.
These colour transparencies of Stratocruisers are stunning, though sad. I always find it poignant to see aircraft permanently grounded, whether they are perfectly preserved, as Concorde at Manchester airport, or wrecked like these ones. As a child I had a 1950s boys' annual with a feature on the Stratocruiser. I was fascinated with it - and still am. I never saw a Stratocruiser when spotting at Manchester Airport - they were before my time. I remember Viscounts, Vanguards, DC3s, Bristol Britannias - by the way there is a part-preserved Bristol Britannia at the former Speke Airport in Liverpool. I am a very big fan of your Thursday Vancouver stream and it was great to see you on your visit to Manchester. I'd love to go to Vancouver - not really feasible at the moment! Thanks for everything you do!
Thank you for the great comment Aidan very much appreciated. I was so happy to briefly visit Manchester and Liverpool a few weeks ago. You are lucky to have your Vangaurd, Viscount and Britannia memories from MAN. These slides of Stratocruisers were in a slide collection I acquired and had to be shared.
There is still a C-97G (now configured as a KC-97, never operated by CA Air National Guard as such) at Fox Field. My mother flew aboard this aircraft as a flight nurse and my father flew it as an aircraft commander. Recently acquired his log books and he flew 53-0272 many times. Mainly to Hawaii and Vietnam.
Amazing stuff.. your parents lived in interesting times for sure!
Fabulous pictures and great commentary - thank you.
My pleasure I’m glad you enjoyed my video.
I've been fascinated with the Stratocruiser for decades. I wish I could have flown on one. Thank you for sharing these pics.
What a wonderful find. On Oct. 27, 1953 I boarded Pan Am clipper N1029V in Frankfort to Boston. I have the manifest as well as the flight jacket for my trip to the USA. I became an Aircraft mechanic and worked in the industry for almost 50 years. Wonder what happened to "Clipper Golden Eagle" ??? Last known as belonging to Miami Air Charters.
Fantastic comment thank you so much!!! You have lived through wonderful life experiences! Wow!
@1959sdl clipper golden eagle was broken up sometime after 1968. If I find anything else about its fate I'll make another comment
The San Diego aerospace museum Gillespie Field facility has the nose cockpit section of a Northwest Boeing strato cruiser on display it is complete with all instrumentation and radio gear.
Great to hear!
@@JetFlix the public is allowed in the cockpit bring your captain's hat and take your photo.
My understanding was that was a nose section of a C-97 that was painted to look like a NWA Stratocuiser….I hope that I am wrong. I’ll have to stop by the museum.
The nose section at the San Diego museum at Gillespie is an old ANG KC-97 that had last been with the Arizona ANG at Phoenix.
I was a young kid growing up in the '50s about 5 miles from Idlewild/Kennedy, and loved watching the DC-6/7s zipping around, Constellations galore, modified military Connies with their "submarine sails", flying box-cars flying in and out of Mitchell Field (later Hofstra University). I saw my first 707 on Halloween, 1958 sweeping in for a landing on Runway 31R. I have no memory of ever having seen a Stratocruiser, either in the air or on the ground. In fact I first learned of their existence reading a Dennis the Menace comic book (about a trip to Hawaii), while we were flying of a Northwest DC-6, Flight 55, Newark Airport to Portland, Oregon. (Approx. 13 hours, stopping in Pittsburg, Detroit, Chicago, Spokane, on to Portland).
Thank you for taking the time to share your amazing memories from the 1950s. I really appreciate it and I’m sure others here will enjoy seeing it as well. You’re lucky to have these memories .. you were born at the right time to have experienced the golden age of airline travel. I was 2 decades too late to experience the Stratocruiser, but I did get to experience Viscounts and Vanguards and DC-8a here in Canada when I was growing up. I appreciate your support and thanks again.
What a fantastic video - thx for sharing this! As an avid Stratocruiser buff I can confirm never to have seen any of these shots before! Amazing stuff. Especially the one slide with TAL & NWA 377's together - wow... Just added yet another TAL Corgi model of the Stratocruiser to my own collection by the way ;-) Great work - good to see other people who love these amazing planes.
Yes when I got these slides I knew they were special and justified putting the video together to share them. Thank you for the commet.
My Dad, Nick Bountis was one of the original maverick pilots at TALOA. The airlines was a close knit group of post WWII aviators. My Dad was a captain alongside Orvis Nelson, the founder. I remember flying on a Stratocruiser flown by my Dad from Oakland to HNL. Dad was stationed in Honolulu for a couple years so we moved west from the east coast and eventually ended up in the Bay Area where my Dad was stationed in Oakland. There is a book "Folded Wings" by Arue Szura which details the history of TALOA. As you mention in your video Transocean went bankrupt. The main reason being TALOA had established a significant presence in the Pacific as a non-scheduled airline. Their slogan, "We'll fly anything, any place, anytime" cut into Pan AM's business worldwide. Pan American didn't want the competition and pushed regulation to prohibit non-scheduled airlines from flying the same routes. PAN AM was relentless and TALOA was not able to survive. Many of the captains were hired on by Lufthansa and JAL. My Dad went to Lufthansa as Chief Pilot. The original pilots, crew and staff of TALOA remained close and celebrated annual reunions for over 50 years which included children and grandchildren. They were an amazing airline and hold an important place in aviation history.
Thank you for these amazing comments so fascinating to hear. And in one of my videos I stated that the acronym TALOA must mean something and I’ve read that book that you’re referring to cover to cover several times and I never found out what the hell that means .. it’s a mystery beyond the great pyramids UFOs and Sasquatch all combined! If you could, please tell me what the heck TALOA stands for ..that would be amazing. It’s actually painted on the side of the Transocean aircraft but in the year 2023 mystery persists.
@@JetFlix Thanks for your kind words. If my memory is right I think I read somewhere TALOA stands for "Transocean AirLines Oakland Airport". I still have contacts with other daughters of TALOA pilots and will ask them for confirmation.
The Stratocruiser with bashed nose was N402Q. The damage was due to a collision with another Stratocruiser (N90942) in August, 1967 (see Aviation Safety Network accident database) I seem to recall that N90942 was on the take-off run, lost control for some reason, and struck N402Q.
Thanks for letting us know this fact I appreciate it.
I can recall seeing these out there and more vintage props at Fox Field also early 70's
Amazing you saw these Ellis!! Did you also take a set of these slides at the time.
@@JetFlix Sadly not. Back then I was concentrating on learning to fly.
Thanks really enjoyed that it's so sad to think these beautiful aircraft where flown there and then just left... If I had been their taking those photos I would have had to go on board and take interior photos I would have risked it for sure.... Thanks from the UK 🇬🇧
Me too!!! I would love to see what the interiors looked like. It would be an amazing time machine view. And I did just that when I visited the parked TWA Convair 880s at Mojave in the 1980s. I have a slide of myself sitting in a seat in the cabin.
Omg ,safe them and try one alive ?
Probably stripped out inside.
My dad was stationed at Rhine Main AFB West Germany 1969 -1971. Air gaurd units were operating kc 97s on constant rotations. These planes were maintained well and offered excellent service.
Yes I’ve seen many photos and slides of the Stratocruisers refuelling F4 phantoms over Germany and Europe during this era.
NW traded their 377's to Lockheed Burbank on a one on one basis as the 188's were delivered. After the March 1960 loss of N121US, the deliveries from Lockheed were halted pending the re-working and modification of the existing aircraft in the LEAP program of 1961. As the final 188's were delivered the 377's went on to Lockheed. As usual, thanks for the memories!
Thank you for this interesting info on the Northwest Strat retirement for Electras timing .. I was not aware.
The quality of these Kodachrome images is still superb after all these years. I think the emergency exit doors were removed to improve ventilation within the airplane so that workers could operate within them without sweating off about 18 lbs. each. Unfortunately, this no doubt encouraged bird nesting inside.
Great video.
Kodachrome was a truly amazing product. I have slides from my childhood 50 or so years old that look like they were shot yesterday. They are the time capsules of film.
Thank you very much for your comments. I appreciate it and I’m glad you agree that the quality of the images was very high. Kodachrome is the highest quality of slide film available. There is a lot of debate as to the reasons why the emergency exits were removed. You’ll see tons of comments with many different views I guess we’ll never know for certain.
@@JetFlix WAS the highest quality...
Great photos. Thanks for posting. Looks like a Stratocruiser with USAF markings is parked at the eastern end of Fox Field.
I went to the California 1000 air races at Mojave in 1971 explored the planes, interiors were still intact, sleeping bunks and seats were still in the airplane. still sitting on landing gear and most of the instruments remained in cockpit. Prop and engines were still in position.
Did you take any photos or slides? It would be fabulous to see.
In November 1954 my dad and I flew from Chicago to MSP on a Northwest Stratocruiser returning from my Grandfathers funeral in Mississippi. It was a memorable beast with pullman style bunks that lowered from the ceiling where the bins are on modern aircraft.
The stewardess took me on a tour of the plane including the lower level lounge. I was ten at the time, but remember it like it was today.
We were being served breakfast and hit some turbulence and there were scrambled eggs all over. The trip included a DC 3 and Convair 340 (Delta C & S) and a DC 4 (NWA) on four legs from Greenwood MS to Billings, Montana.
Wow, what fabulous memories you have from that sad trip to the funeral in 1954. Not too many people can remember their Stratocruiser flights. I was born in 1964 so it was well before my time. My memories are on Air Canada, Viscounts and Vanguards and TCA to various operators here in Canada. Thanks for your wonderful comments, and thanks for sharing them
Great material here Henry. Wonderful glimpse into Boeing’s history and thanks for sharing these images.
Glad you enjoyed it and thank you for letting me know that you enjoyed my video. I appreciate it.
Thank you for sharing a great aircraft of it's time.
I just came across this. Thank you for putting up these slides. It's a true moment in time. My wifi connection has been playing up so I haven't seen a clip I passed a moment ago that seemed to show a Stratocruiser go through a cycle of takeoff & landing in 2019 & featuring the same North West livery. Very interesting episode thanks again.
You're very welcome, thank you and I am glad you found it. Perhaps you could subscribe to my channel.
@@JetFlix 😉, I already had👍
@@JetFlix Im from NZ & I have always loved reading all sorts of subjects & very early on planes captured my attention & because it's nice to dream also I'll occasionally look up the site "hanger67". A.couple of planes I drool over are our old NZ airforce alumni, the A4 Skyhawk & the BAC Strikemaster, both of which are for sale this very moment, sigh. Then again also onsite is another fav, the Douglas AD4 Skyraider, A7 Vought Corsair, Saab Draken (Viggen's better) etc etc. In essence, there are so many types & models of aircraft that capture our attention & create some feeling of longing or awe or nostalgia within us simply by seeing or hearing them, a childhood model maybe, that when they come with an intriguing or emotive story also they remain forever a part of our fascination. As a kid there was a big triangle shaped junkyard that had a simple wire fence around it within bicycle distance. It was actually some guys personal "stuff" collection rather than being an operating junkyard, but as a kid all I saw was fascinating old stuff & my imagination would be off & running. There was old farm equipment, bulldozers, cars, trucks....but right in the middle was a DC3, the most amazing site for a young kid. After discovering the "junkyard" it wasn't long before progress claimed it unfortunately & where that old plane went & how I'll never know. A few years later I saw tucked away in the middle of nowhere, parked up next to some guys garage sans wings & similarly about to cause my imagination to run rampant, was an ex NZ Airforce Bristol Freighter. These things would do the run up to Vietnam & Malaya previous to that when our troops were serving during those 1950's & 60's conflicts. Seeing as how the Bristol freighter almost looks like a flying tadpole with its "2 storey" flight deck & wouldn't usually stimulate any type of longing I think it was knowing my uncle did 2 tours of Vietnam & so most likely at some time also endured what must have been an interminable island hopping flight from NZ up to Vietnam & Phuoc Tuy province in one these planes if not that very one before boarding a truck or chopper & ending at Nui Dat camp where our field troops were based.
25 or 30 years later I lived not close by exactly but also not too far relatively speaking from that middle of nowhere property & still as intrigued as I was at about 12 years old I took a drive to see if it was still around & to my surprise & the rekindling of my rampant imagination it was, albeit dirtier & overgrown by weeds it was still there. I apologise that this has rambled on much like a freighter flight to "Nam" in the 60's so I'll just say while I had dreams of buying or at least saving that plane from scrapping I could never find anybody around or any reply to notes left in the mailbox & only heard at most from immediate locals that the guy living there was a bit of a recluse & so it seemed. I'd still check it's existence on the few times I'd be out that way to "nowhere in particular if you don't live right there" which I rightly didn't technically, literally or exactly reside at, only my hope that yet another piece of history wouldn't be scrapped for convenience sake kept me making those trips with fingers crossed until the last when I came across only a cleared site & a new house being built. The last time I had any information was when my partner forwarded me a link to an obscure article which explained that the owner of the property had passed away & his surviving sister & brother in law got the section cleared of all the overgrowth & thankfully recognised the significance of the plane & a club or enthusiasts had either purchased it or the plane was donated to be preserved & hopefully put on display with replacement wings, mock wings or wingless as the case may be, but it did survive & I also could put my personal, quiet, low level obsession away satisfactorily when I knew what the outcome was.
How do we come to be interested or fascinated in all or in certain aircraft?
Would you believe me if I said I had no idea?
These are merely two instances in my youth but there were actually many pinches of my "interest with planes" nerve in hindsight & yet I would not have been looked on as or would ever have described myself as primarily an aero enthusiast because I've had similar fascinations or nostalgia with trucks, trains, ships, motorbikes, military, cars as well as every subject I could take an interest in really & if a person is curious about things there can be many. It maybe also helps never really having just enough money to own & also pay for the required ongoing upkeep of a costly interest which could possibly dull the enthusiasm & romanticisms we feel for those interests which had captured our imaginations.
But the reality is that the whole field of aviation is not only an interesting topic for me it is branded within my feelings & a subject thats not difficult in the least for me to be passionate about.
Thank you & I'll look forward to more on your channel. All the best...🛫
WONDERFUL! I just love shots of scrapped aircraft esp. around the desert locations in the US in the 609s and 70s. I remember the TV cop show 'Canon' (Detective Frank Canon) in the 70s I guess had a few scenes shot among the scrapped 377s and Mojave.
I think someone else also mentioned this TV show thanks for telling us too.
I was at the Mojave Air Races around 1970 and there a couple of C-97's and C-133's owned by the Foundation for Airborne Relief and one Stratocruiser that was painted in Aerospace Lines livery, the builders of the Guppies. The Stratocruisers in this video may have been at another location at Mojave or at Fox.
Yes they were at Fox Field down the road. Did you see the Human Fly on top of the JAL DC-8 in the mid 1970s?
@@JetFlix Nope, I missed that but I have seen the video's. There was a Connie and a DC-7 in a race but I was most interested in the P-38's.
In the early 80s a bunch of KC-97s were sold and some wound up in cargo service like fish haulers in AK. The Air Force may have bought some of the tails to keep the fleet flying until retirement. Some also hauled fuel out to the remote AK villages. Many of the internal tanks for fuel were recycled into DC-6s by Evert's in Anchorage. The cargo door mod may have been where the aircraft had to have civil certification for cargo rather than ex military.
Just to add to the wonderful post of these very rare aircraft... and confirm that "Conroy" that built the "Guppies" did not install that door. My pop... that passed last year, was the systems manager during the development of the Guppies... The Kirby's and the Conroy family are so very proud of the work that produced some amazing aircraft... that are still flying today! Much love!!
Thank you for this very nice comment with the historical nod to these two great aviation families.
Awesome. What an interesting connection. I can "read" the pride you have also, in your Pop & his work.
All the best.
Great work Henry! Thanks for sharing!
My pleasure!
These NW B-377s were traded into Lockheed as partial payment for NW's L-188 Electra's. When the NW Tell City crash took place on March 17, 1960, Donald Nyrop initially demanded they "undo" the deal, and return these aircraft. He was talked out of it. The presenter incorrectly claims these aircraft were replaced by Boeing 707s. NW initially purchased DC-8-32s. After receiving Boeing 720-051s in 1961 and liking their performance, NW sold their DC-8s to National and ordered and received their first 707-351Bs in 1963.
Joined the ANG in 1968 and flew on a C-54 to McClellan AFB, in Sacramento CA., then a KC97 to Lackland AFB, in San Antonio. I can still remember the bounced landing that had several of the aircrew looking a little nervous until it settled on the runway. I also remember the loudly squawking brakes…
What a precious account! Thanks for sharing!
Great video.
When I used to live in Tucson years ago it was always neat to go through some of the airplane graveyards there and wonder what kind of stories the planes could tell.
Glad you enjoyed my video
Fascinating video! I’m in the area of the Mojave AP. Have witnessed lots of military and Steve Fossett aircraft in the sky up to Space X crash. So many new aircraft in Mojave and Victorville on the ground.
Thank you I appreciate your comment and I’m glad you enjoyed my video.
I remember in the early '70s seeing the military variant of the 337 parked at the Van Nuys, CA airport. It may have been from the ANG, as they had a presence there at the time. The Guppy and Super Guppy were common sights at the Van Nuys Airport in the '60s and early '70s as well.
The good 'ol 146th TAW!
Back in the '90's, they got their own base, and moved from Van Nuys, out near Port Hueneme.
Some of the old ANG hangars at Van Nuys are still there, though some were demolished during a huge re-model at the airport.
I remember seeing the Super Guppy's at Long Beach on occasion, moving stuff for Douglas Aircraft, in the early-mid '80's.
Yes definitely the aircraft of the 146th TAW. The C-97G out at Fox Field is from Van Nuys ANG.
Amazing that these pictures are 50 years old and these were old derelict relics even back then!
Exactly … !! The planes were 25 years old 50 years ago. The are like Jules Verne strampunk machines compated to present day airline technology.
@@JetFlix has anybody thought to do a pictorial of the 747s of today being parked out in the desert awaiting scrapping?
I worked in the Guppy program for awhile and as I remember it we removed the wings from the military version of the C-97 located in the aircraft graveyard in Tucson, Arizona. This was in the 80's in Goleta, California. The wings were reinforced of course to compensate for the size of the Guppy.
As I produce videos like this one that you were watching, I’m wondering if you have any photos or slides that you could share with or gift to me so that I could use to make a similar video on the Guppy … if you have any film content, movies, promotional materials I’d love to hear from you.
Henry: NWA had 10 strrats N74601 - N74610. N74607 had fire in MSP maint and was W/O then ferried to MIA corrosion corner. N74608 ditched in Puget Sound due to severe vibration and drag due to FE failing to adjust cowl flaps from fully open after takeoff.
That ditching not far out of Seattle near Portland was quite something.
Yes, I remember this accident. My folks house had a view of Puget Sound and Maury Island about where this accident happened.
@@JetFlix Portland is nowhere near Maury Island. Maybe you're thinking of Tacoma.
In the TV show "Cannon" there was a shoot out scene filmed in and around these aircraft.
Thanks for telling us about this
@@JetFlix When I find the episode, I'll post more info.
Wow... 42V @ 16:28 looks like she'd be good to go with a few salvaged pieces from around her, and some oil.
A lot of oil, a small tanker truck full of 50wt, and spark plugs... somebody's gonna have to go back and get a s#!t load of sparkplugs!! Thanks for sharing this! I'm a new subscriber now!
Thank you so much for the comment and thank you very much for subscribing to my channel as well. I really appreciate that.
My father was sole proprietor of Engravers Unlimited located on Long Beach Airport. He built the instrument panels for the guppies.
Interestingly enough, only hundreds of feet east on Spring street. There was Foley's Aircraft. Dan's son, became one of my best friends to this day. Dan Foley Sr. Has passed, but Dan Foley III is alive and well, now living in Coos Bay Oregon, about 300 miles south from where I now live in Napavine WA.
I also knew Ken Brock, my mother was an employee of K.B. Enterprises.
Just tidbits...
Fascinating historical tid bits thank you so much for sharing. If you have any Aero Soace Lines slides, models or historical data I could use for a video please let me know.
I was surprised & curious why you didn’t mention that one of the Stratocruisers had round windows vs squared windows. When & why was the window-shape an option? I’ve read rounded windows are stronger than square windows.
I love the enlarged Air Canada Viscount at the end. I loved watching the Viscounts and Vanguards at my local airport (YQR), and also on approach or departure over my parents' house, which was two miles from the airport. I noticed an interesting thing about the Pan Am Stratocruiser in that it has porthole windows instead of rectangular ones as on the Northwest and Transocean planes. Also, I never could understand why airlines wanted to have their names painted over. In most cases it was still very obvious to planespotters. We know these planes weren't 'hull losses'.
Born and raised in Vancouver I am also an Air Canada Viscount and Vanguard fan.
I was stationed at Ramstein AB Germany in the early 70's flying the F4-E. We refueled from the KC97-L which was a 377 with jets on the wings. The air guard flew them and they could indicate 220kts with the jets running.
Yes I have seen old images of KC97s drogue refuelling F4s. There was a speed mismatch between the two types. The KC-135 was much better suited to the task. Did you ever take 35mm color slides while inflight .. of other aircraft you were in close formation with?
@@JetFlix The KC97 we refueled from had the boom configuration. We were weight restricted due to slow speed
I fondly remember the Illinois Air National Guard flying those KC97L's out of Chicago's O'Hare Field. You'd first hear the sound of the four P&W R-4360 engines followed by the loud roar of the J-47 jet engines suspended near the wingtips. I believe the Illinois Air Guard transitioned to the KC-135s about 1974.
The Trans Ocean livery (15:30) cleverly disguised the double chinned, double hull of the Stratocruiser giving it a more modern appearance, and even showing the little bit of nose the craft actually did have. This achieved by running the wide, lighter buff color right down to the belt line and having the darker band above. By doing this, yo didn't see the belt line within a field of color or aluminum. It disappears as it's the boarder of the buff stripe. A very clever use of color and illusion.
Great observation thank you for pointing this out
Wow, insane to think that these beautiful planes were left there for scrap...
For a few decades …
That's all the value they had.
Beautiful is not the term I would use to describe them. Bloated, plump, or tubby would be more accurate.
@@gregb6469 Functional would be more accurate. The C-130 is also quite ugly but perfectly suited for its intended function.
@@gregb6469- Eye of the beholder I guess Greg? You can see the B-29 bones in these Stratocruisers, which are beautiful planes.
I remember watching a tv show in the late 60's or early 70's where these aircraft were seen in an episode. I think it may have been "Cannon" a private investigator/crime drama.
Amazing .. thank you for telling me
Hi, What interesting historic slides. You mentioned the removal of the vertical stabilisers, I'm not sure if this counts, but based on a very realistic Stratocruiser on my flight simulator, the vertical stabiliser used to fold down flat onto the horizontal stabilizer in order to allow the aircraft to access the maintainance hangers of the day because they were too tall. I guess that makes them a very easy part to remove and use on other aircraft. Also one of the reasons the Lockheed Constillation had that strange three rudder design, because the rudder was smaller and so allowed access to hangers................so I believe. Great photos though, all the best Dave.
Thank you so much for the awesome insight into the tails and they’re easily being able to be folded down.
In my collection of model aircraft built from plastic kits, are three Boeing Stratocruiser airliners. One is in the paint scheme of Trans Ocean another is decaled for Pan American (Pan Am) while a third model has American Overseas Airlines livery. These are in my preferred scale of 1/72. Still after all these years from when I first assembled these from plastic Kits, my enthusiasm and strong liking for these representatives from the Golden Age of Air Travel has never waned.
Just like you, I also like 1/72 scale when it comes to airline models, and I also have a number of Stratocruiser models in my collection too.
I spent the first 10 years of my life on Air Force bases. (1952-1963) My father (MSGT James Herman Clay) was a flight engineer on the KC-97. My sister and i attended multiple air shows on base and took walk thru tours several times. Such a beautiful aircraft. Families gathered at the end of the runways when dad's squadron returned from TDY. Such wonderful memories watching these magnificent planes return from Goose Bay or The Azores or North Africa. I have a model in my living room. My dad retired rather than retrain for the KC 135.
Thank you Jimmy for sharing the awesome memories that you have from your early years when your dad was on these monsters of the sky (in military uniform, of course). That’s what makes my channel so rewarding for me .. Hearing from people that have happy memories from the videos. it’s wonderful. I’m wishing you all the best and thanks for commenting my video.
Henry painting out the logos is usually done by the airline to protect their image it is not required. When I was involved with lease return we painted out logos using rollers. I met with Mike Potter (ex TWA) who ran the Mojave facility. I am sure the storage facility would pain out the logos for a FEE.
Great, thank you very much for that Jay. I appreciate it.
My guess about the emergency doors is the pyrotechnics involved in jettisoning the doors.
Wow these are really rare and I have never seen any image of the stored Northwest Stratocruisers that were traded to Lockheed for the Electras. One of these birds - I believe N74603 - made its way to Tucson international and was relatively intact until the early 1980s, so quite a while after all of these Mojave birds were scrapped. I grew up in Minneapolis, which was one of the last strongholds of Strat service. As others pointed out below, after the crash of Northwest flight 710 in March, 1960, NW un-retired its eight remaining Strats and grounded the Electras. NW flew about six trips a day MSP-MDW in the summer 1960 high season, as well as multiple MSP-IDL trips with the Stratocruiser. Such a tragedy that these were scrapped, but thank you for posting the latest pictures of the NWA fleet I have ever seen.
Anyone know how late the Israel Air Force flew the ex-Pan Am Strats that they took on?
Great comments thank you again Ryan. I did not know about the NW reactivation of the Strats in the summer of 1960. I think the Israeli Air Force operated the Strats into the early 1970s but I do not have details.
Texas Air Guard kept theirs into mid 70s.
Fascinating presentation. Thanks!
Sad to see what became of these long haul aircraft. A combination of the jets and
not the best safety record shortened the airline life of the Strat...!
Glad you enjoyed it
It's interesting to look at these old airplanes. I've often thought it would be a lot of fun to take one of these old airplanes and turn it into a house.
I guess some people have done it - looks like it costs a LOT of money.
My Dad flew for Trans Ocean out of Oakland which I believe became Saturn Airways, TIA, then Transamerica Airlines.
Wow!!!! Amazing!!!! May I ask .. did you Dad take a lot of color slides of the aircraft??? I am always looking for images to make viseos like this.
Hi I recently started watching your videos I so glad I saw this I wish they could have restored those planes ✈️ they were so nice and luxurious for the time they were out
Thanks for watching Freddy
I used to fly DC6 from fort Mcmurray alberta to resolute bay in the early and mid 70s that had 2800 double wasp engines 18 cylinders each Boeing stratocruisers were conceived in the late 1940s so these planes would have been considered obsolete by the mid 1970s good video
Thank you for the interesting comment. Were you flying on NWT Air or Pacific Western Airlines DC-6 flights?
@@JetFlix Pacific west is correct resolute bay was transportation depot it probably still is
In Fort Lauderdale, someone took the fuselage of a strati cruiser and put it on a boat hull. It was a live-aboard! It is now at a museum at Lakeland Linder airport, where Sun and Fun aviation show is held.
I believe if I’m not mistaken, what you were referring to it was a Boeing 307 Stratoliner not a Boeing Stratocruiser that was used for this particular conversion.
@@JetFlix you are probably correct. I know best Boeing 726, 757 and 767🤪
Cleveland Ohio has a KC-97G at the I-X Center by the airport. It was going to be a restaurant but pandemic stopped that. The huge building had been assembly plant for B-29's and it was next best display aircraft. It had been flown by the Ohio National Air Guard. It was taken apart and moved to Cleveland over a 3 1/2 week period.
Yes, there are a number of military versions of this aircraft the KC-97 still around various airfields across the US ..which is nice. But I do not believe there is a single Boeing Stratocruiser in existence anywhere on planet earth in the year 2023 sadly.
The one with the damaged nose could be involved in this incident recorded on Wikipedia.
“August 1967
An Aero Spacelines Stratocruiser 10-29 (N90942) suffered a ground collision with Stratocruiser 10-32 N402Q at Mojave, California; the aircraft was damaged beyond repair.”
Thanks for telling us that I appreciate it.
man cool planes. that last one has round windows compared to the rectangular ones on the others. maybe a late model or something
There's something like this parked in front of a roadside motel, Don Q Inn, near Dodgeville, Wisconsin. We soent a nite there. It was flown in to small airport and parked near risf in front of motel.
The emergency exits might have been removed for ventilation and the vertical stabilizer were probably removed to prevent weather vaning.
Very cool looking plane.
Just a thought, with Mojave’s proximity to Hollywood could some of these have been used as sets for films? That could possibly explain some of the damages.
What killed the KC97 was the fact that top speed for the KC97 was 2-3 mph more than stall speed for the B47. Voila,, here comes the KC135. Still flying today.
True fact, the KC-97 was a piston pounder, and it was mismatched to the fighter jets of the jet age that it needed to refuel.
Henry enjoyed your video. It appears to me that these Stratocruisers were built from the B29 frames like the C189 cargo air craft.
Yes, indeed, Boeing modified the B-29 and made it into the Stratocruiser after the war.
just found your channel. I have to ask how many scale model planes do you have and who dusts them? Awesome to see behind you.
I have never counted my Models, so I don’t know. Sadly. Dusting does not happen often enough but I am the one to do that job.
The emergency exits were possibly removed for ventilation during the internal stripping of the salvageable parts. It would have been a tad warm for the workers in there under the desert sun.
This makes sense too.
Great content
Hi Henry, My name is also Henry and I live in Lancaster, CA and Fox Field is about a 7 minute drive from where I live. In fact, my house is just under the glide slope of planes using ILS approaches. My neighbor actually has a prop engine some years ago displayed in his front yard, who knows, maybe it was a stratocruiser engine???
Great to hear from you, Henry. I love comments like this. Yeah it would be nice to think that one of the props survives in a garden somewhere near the airport.
There's still one out at Fox. C-97G 53-0272 was flown by the CA Air National Guard. My father flew that actual aircraft and my mother flew aboard as a flight nurse.
would like to see inside them.
Liked and subscribed!
I recall seeing a large number of these parked way out on a taxiway at Oakland International Airport as we arrived and left. Most of them appeared to be in United Airlines Paint scheme as well as PanAm.
Must have been in the early 1960s
i took a hop in KC 97s several times in the 60s.' when I was in the air force.
I found this article about the Pan Am” version of the “Boeing Stratocruiser”.
Saw one at Fox Field some years back.
Missing emergency exit doors were removed for ventilation. They were not interchangabble with tose on Guppy's and Superguppy's. The fuselages of those were built up from the lower lobe of the B-377 fuselage, so totally different.
Thank you for explaining
About those Transocean planes with the big cutouts in the fuselages, perhaps that was done for easier removal of the seats.
We think these parts were needed for other planes .. but we will never know for certain.
I think I caught a KC97 at the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Greenham Common in 76 or 77… must look a pic of it out of I have it….
I suggest the "unknown" 377 at 10:30 minutes in this video is also a Northwest plane, based on the paint livery on the exterior.
Why were exit doors removed? I suggest to allow the dry desert air to permeate and preserve interiors along with exteriors.
Thank you Fred.. by unknown I was referring to the N number ident. Yes it is a former NWAL for sure.
Pretty sad sight. I'd love to see these rebuilt and restored to flying status. It would be great to see one of these fly at Oshkosh.
None of these planes still exist they were scrapped in the mid 70s
They are long gone.
So very true! Unfortunately, the appreciation of propliners as worthy of preservation in flying condition did not occur until the 1980s--many years after these Stratocruisers had been scrapped.
Some great slides there. Kinda looks like Mojave, but it should be easy enough to discover where they were broken up.
The location is Fox Field .. just down the road from Mojave airport.
I noticed that the Pan Am 337 had round windows. Don't know why they switched from round to rectangular four different models two different airlines.
Yes Northwest had square windows, good point.
What a sad end for such beautiful aircraft.
I know …
On the 3rd and the last image it looks like additional inner ductwork twisting along cylinder banks. What is that?
The saddest thing of all is that, considering there were only 55 built, that someone with the resources to do it didn't piece together a complete airframe from all the planes there and preserve it in a museum for future generations. There have been a few other examples of this: historically significant aircraft that were all scrapped and not a single airframe saved, one of the most glaring are the YB35/49 Flying Wings from Northrop.
I guess back in the 60s and 70s that just didn’t have the mindset that we have today about preserving aviation history. It’s a huge shame that Boeing couldn’t care less about the aircraft and did nothing back then.
There is a C-97 at the Minnesota Air National Guard museum at MSP in pretty good shape...but it sits outside in the elements........
That’s too bad but I think there’s quite a number of KC-97 and C-97’s at various museums across the United States that are sitting outside in the elements.
*Wow I'd love to have a wander around those old girls*
Just need to wait for the creation of a time machine. Who knows maybe it already exists .. hence all the UFO activity meddling with U.S. Navy flight operations.
Love the Strats.
If only they could be made to sound like a Tele...😁
Nice car!!! At first I thought it was an American '68-'70 Ford XL Sportsroof. But I checked out your channel and saw that it's an Australian Ford Landau.
United Airlines also flew these, wonder what happened to those. They lost one into the bay on approach to SFO in 1951
I'd love to go there once but in summer temperatures of course😂
Likely removed rudders and @ least in the latter photos, vertical fin to cut down on wind/weather caning. Boneyards such as this are voices of aircraft heard never again. At SAT on the northeast side of the airport, was a large collection of C82 Packets being reduced for scrap. In the 60s, they were a favorite hangout on a Saturday as we’d ride our bikes there and spend the day in the cockpits.
This makes sense. Thank you very much for the suggestion on what causes. We appreciate your insight here.
Just out of curiosity, why were all the rudders removed? And in many, the tail sections removed?
I would guess that aircraft parts suppliers remove them so they could sell to other operators of the day as they were easily removable and in demand.