Thank you very much for а terrific compelling study on the pre-history of the bloodshed made by Russia in our country. We have heard about Mary Sarrote’ work in the podcast of the Dutch historian Martin van Rossem and bought all books. Being a Ukrainian I thought I have a fairly good knowledge around these subjects, however the presented fact-check is invaluable for closing the loop on the NATO related aspects that brought my country to this tragedy. Truly great lecture. Much appreciated organising it. Слава Украине и ее героическому народу!
Thank you very much for a great substantive lecture, but I would like to correct one inaccuracy in your statement. The demolition of the Berlin Wall was not one of the tensions in this region, the demolition of the Berlin Wall was a consequence of Polish resistance to the Russian occupation in the form of the "Solidarity" social movement. Without the Polish struggle for freedom - supported by the US - the geopolitical possibility of German reunification would not have opened up. Ukraine's desire to be free of русский мир creates constant "tension" in the region.
At th-cam.com/video/aHj0K9PofCw/w-d-xo.html Sarotte explains that secretary of state Baker hypothetically spoke with President Gorbatchov about NATO not expanding one inch to the east. President H.W. Bush sr. however later on rejected that option and communicated that crystal clear to Baker and Gorbatchov. Conclusion of Prof. Sarotte is that there is no treaty at all of the frequently quoted "not one inch" expansion of NATO. Neither written nor oral.
I miss hreard or miss Understood ( some homework to find Who say it ) On paper ''do not move close to USSR agreements after 2do war If the broke his words -on paper ( like in USA with Native Nation ; Broken Treaties With Native American Tribes... USA do not permit in all the continent of America North central or south ..even in Cuba military site ... what is the aim ?
I am against imperialism. "Sphere of influence" is an imperialist concept. Therefore, I am against spheres of influence. Whether it's the USA, China, Russia, or whomever, NO ONE has the right to a "sphere of influence". #ImperialismIsSlavery
That's maybe easy to say, or maybe even 'gratuit'. It depends on how you define 'sphere of influence'. Nobody is alone on this planet, or totally independant. We all have interests, personally, nationally and internationally. Short-term and long-term. You have interests in the actions and plans of your neighbours, in trade, gateways, mobility, safety, the quality of the shared air, water, climate, the supply of energy, resources, food, etc. Therefor you manage relationships, treaties, diplomacy, etc, bilateral and international.
Understand your point of view, it has intrinsic validity. HOWEVER, it is not realistic. International relations are power relationships. Creating a vulnerability in a neighborhood will generate a response. So, the USSR had to recognize US spheres of influence, for example, in order to avoid an unpleasant response. We should take a cue from the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 .. which not only resulted in the removal of offensive weapons from the "US sphere of influence," but (and we try not to remember this or talk about it -- shhhh!) the equal action of removal of certain US missiles from close proximity to the southern borders of the USSR. The deployment of Russian missiles into Mexico would provide a lesson in spheres of influence to Mexico, Russia, and observers elsewhere. And very, very quickly. I am against Evil, but being against it doesn´t make it go away. The proxy war in Ukraine is partially to reduce the Russian sphere and expand the US (NATO/EU/FMI etc.) sphere, which of course has resulted in conflict, something predicted long ago. All the best --
Maybe it is just a "cultural" thing a) James Baker as an American was used to do some hypothetical thinking of his own (only to discover later that his president was not happy about it ?) b) People like Edoeard Sjevardnadze never would allow themselves such hypothetical thinking, but only carried out direct orders from Moscow ? I am what surprised to hear that Bush had to remind Baker what was his policy toward the East-European countries: did he go to meet the Soviet leader that unprepared ? Did he sufficiantly stressed he was hypothetically speaking, and this without backing of his president, knowing very well the Russian way of decision making is very different than the American way ? Confusion has set in.... There is another question possible: is it a good thing NATO expanded to the East, or would it have been better if let's say the integration of Eastern Europe in the Western way of living would have stopped with EU-integration, and a large demilitarized zone would have been created, going from let's say Berlin to 200 km west from Moscow ? I'm of course only introducing a hypothesis, I'll have to check with my King what he thinks about it, so don't get confused here.... We'll never know, but what is clear: after things like the INF treaty with its far reaching on site inspections (never seen before), after cuts in defense budgets in the West etc. we're back in the Cold War rhetoric, and in Ukraine, it even turned hot. Defense budgets are skyrocketing again (1000 Billion USD annually for NATO) and the INF treaty is dead again. Maybe, just maybe, things could have gone differently. But they didn't, and we have to face the new situation....
“Nato has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. Nato expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” The words of President Vladimir Putin in Munich, 10 February 2007 and, I may add in front of a sneering John McCain. I am of the opinion that NATO's bombing of Serbian Troops/Infrastructure and Civilian population was yet another of the last nails in the provocation of Russia's coffin. Ms. Sarotte claims, ''but it was for humanitarian reasons'' therefore, doesn't Putin have the right to also claim similar for his invasion of Ukraine as humanitarian after 8 years+ of Ukrainian Military attacks upon ethnic Russians in Donbas. Does Ms. Sarotte's book cover the well documented meddling in Ukrainian/Russian affairs by the US - the same country that armed and trained the Ukrainian Military to a de-facto NATO status. I wonder how the US might react if two Russian Regional Governors turned up in Mexico shouting the odds with an anti-American stance just as Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy did in Ukraine. Those old Cold War Diplomats and Military analysts have long ago been sent into retirement, but those guys and gals had a far better grasp of Russian and especially KGB mentality as those KGB guys do not think the same way as we Westerners do, I often struggled to find logic in some of their actions, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong, it is just their way of interpreting what they see as provocation and a threat. The new guys filling the chairs in Langley, the Pentagon and the White House just don't have the same handle on things and I might well suggest that they're as much to blame for this conflict as anyone else albeit, it is their country now supplying the weapons and ammunition via Lend Lease, it is their country that once again will profit from this conflict whilst some of us here in Eastern Europe wonder how to de escalate the conflict, it appears others are hell bent on escalating it outside of Ukraine. As a footnote, I do not condone this war, I am sorry for anyone and everyone who is suffering loss from it in any shape of form as a result of the invasion, but I still have my own opinion as to why it started in the first place - the sad thing is, it could have all been avoided if only certain parties had taken the warnings coming out of Russia seriously. As one influential American is quoted as saying, ''We will fight Russia in Afghanistan until the last Afghan.'' Let us not hope they have the same commitment with Ukraine.
I have read your argument man but i think you miss the point - it is the Ukraine and its people who fight this war, not their government or anyone else. Funny that you remember about the Kosovo but overlook the facts of the chechen war underlined in this lecture. The moral of the fighting Ukrainian army is high and steady and this is thir choice to press on - you can not deny that. Nato and us presidents did their share of mistakes bit the war in Ukraine is their Patriotic War and that is that. As per discussed book - nothing makes this invasion inevitable. As we, russians,joke around amid ourselves - our Tzar was given a finger, let us all die right here right now :) Also, after re-reafing your post - who are you? Your post suggests that you are the Westerner and then… few lines after - Eastern European…. Sir, are you russian officer by any chance? :)))
@@viktorbarkar8228 My name is Tony, what's your name - Ezekiel? Just click on my name and all will be revealed albeit, I thought it might have been a big clue by itself. Chechnya, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kirghizstan, Kazakhstan - who has and who continues to stir up conflict and rebellions causing problems for Russia! Do you remember why the USA invaded Vietnam, wasn't it based on the spread of Communism and what they termed the Domino Effect. Perhaps Putin's intervention is based on a similar idea against NATO which he views as a tool of American expansionism and influence. The facts are all out there, you just need to know how and where to grab them.
An excellent presentation. Thank you Ms. Sarotte. Y
Thank you, great and important summary
Super! Thank you for your work
I am moved, live lecture world class quality during war time. ❤️❤️❤️
Move over once, mové over twice, com'on baby, don't be sweet as punch... She's travelling on the one after nine-0-nine...
Very interesting! Thank you.
Mary has made a vital contribution to the NATO argument and quite frankly it demolishes Putin's excuse for his war .
Thank you very much for а terrific compelling study on the pre-history of the bloodshed made by Russia in our country. We have heard about Mary Sarrote’ work in the podcast of the Dutch historian Martin van Rossem and bought all books. Being a Ukrainian I thought I have a fairly good knowledge around these subjects, however the presented fact-check is invaluable for closing the loop on the NATO related aspects that brought my country to this tragedy. Truly great lecture. Much appreciated organising it. Слава Украине и ее героическому народу!
Thank you very much for a great substantive lecture, but I would like to correct one inaccuracy in your statement. The demolition of the Berlin Wall was not one of the tensions in this region, the demolition of the Berlin Wall was a consequence of Polish resistance to the Russian occupation in the form of the "Solidarity" social movement. Without the Polish struggle for freedom - supported by the US - the geopolitical possibility of German reunification would not have opened up. Ukraine's desire to be free of русский мир creates constant "tension" in the region.
At th-cam.com/video/aHj0K9PofCw/w-d-xo.html Sarotte explains that secretary of state Baker hypothetically spoke with President Gorbatchov about NATO not expanding one inch to the east. President H.W. Bush sr. however later on rejected that option and communicated that crystal clear to Baker and Gorbatchov.
Conclusion of Prof. Sarotte is that there is no treaty at all of the frequently quoted "not one inch" expansion of NATO. Neither written nor oral.
I miss hreard or miss Understood ( some homework to find Who say it ) On paper ''do not move close to USSR agreements after 2do war If the broke his words -on paper ( like in USA with Native Nation ; Broken Treaties With Native American Tribes... USA do not permit in all the continent of America North central or south ..even in Cuba military site ... what is the aim ?
I am against imperialism. "Sphere of influence" is an imperialist concept. Therefore, I am against spheres of influence. Whether it's the USA, China, Russia, or whomever, NO ONE has the right to a "sphere of influence".
#ImperialismIsSlavery
That's maybe easy to say, or maybe even 'gratuit'. It depends on how you define 'sphere of influence'. Nobody is alone on this planet, or totally independant. We all have interests, personally, nationally and internationally. Short-term and long-term. You have interests in the actions and plans of your neighbours, in trade, gateways, mobility, safety, the quality of the shared air, water, climate, the supply of energy, resources, food, etc. Therefor you manage relationships, treaties, diplomacy, etc, bilateral and international.
Understand your point of view, it has intrinsic validity. HOWEVER, it is not realistic. International relations are power relationships. Creating a vulnerability in a neighborhood will generate a response. So, the USSR had to recognize US spheres of influence, for example, in order to avoid an unpleasant response. We should take a cue from the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 .. which not only resulted in the removal of offensive weapons from the "US sphere of influence," but (and we try not to remember this or talk about it -- shhhh!) the equal action of removal of certain US missiles from close proximity to the southern borders of the USSR. The deployment of Russian missiles into Mexico would provide a lesson in spheres of influence to Mexico, Russia, and observers elsewhere. And very, very quickly. I am against Evil, but being against it doesn´t make it go away. The proxy war in Ukraine is partially to reduce the Russian sphere and expand the US (NATO/EU/FMI etc.) sphere, which of course has resulted in conflict, something predicted long ago. All the best --
Maybe it is just a "cultural" thing
a) James Baker as an American was used to do some hypothetical thinking of his own (only to discover later that his president was not happy about it ?)
b) People like Edoeard Sjevardnadze never would allow themselves such hypothetical thinking, but only carried out direct orders from Moscow ?
I am what surprised to hear that Bush had to remind Baker what was his policy toward the East-European countries: did he go to meet the Soviet leader that unprepared ? Did he sufficiantly stressed he was hypothetically speaking, and this without backing of his president, knowing very well the Russian way of decision making is very different than the American way ? Confusion has set in....
There is another question possible: is it a good thing NATO expanded to the East, or would it have been better if let's say the integration of Eastern Europe in the Western way of living would have stopped with EU-integration, and a large demilitarized zone would have been created, going from let's say Berlin to 200 km west from Moscow ? I'm of course only introducing a hypothesis, I'll have to check with my King what he thinks about it, so don't get confused here.... We'll never know, but what is clear: after things like the INF treaty with its far reaching on site inspections (never seen before), after cuts in defense budgets in the West etc. we're back in the Cold War rhetoric, and in Ukraine, it even turned hot. Defense budgets are skyrocketing again (1000 Billion USD annually for NATO) and the INF treaty is dead again. Maybe, just maybe, things could have gone differently. But they didn't, and we have to face the new situation....
“Nato has put its frontline forces on our borders,” Putin complained. Nato expansion “represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” The words of President Vladimir Putin in Munich, 10 February 2007 and, I may add in front of a sneering John McCain.
I am of the opinion that NATO's bombing of Serbian Troops/Infrastructure and Civilian population was yet another of the last nails in the provocation of Russia's coffin. Ms. Sarotte claims, ''but it was for humanitarian reasons'' therefore, doesn't Putin have the right to also claim similar for his invasion of Ukraine as humanitarian after 8 years+ of Ukrainian Military attacks upon ethnic Russians in Donbas. Does Ms. Sarotte's book cover the well documented meddling in Ukrainian/Russian affairs by the US - the same country that armed and trained the Ukrainian Military to a de-facto NATO status. I wonder how the US might react if two Russian Regional Governors turned up in Mexico shouting the odds with an anti-American stance just as Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy did in Ukraine.
Those old Cold War Diplomats and Military analysts have long ago been sent into retirement, but those guys and gals had a far better grasp of Russian and especially KGB mentality as those KGB guys do not think the same way as we Westerners do, I often struggled to find logic in some of their actions, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong, it is just their way of interpreting what they see as provocation and a threat. The new guys filling the chairs in Langley, the Pentagon and the White House just don't have the same handle on things and I might well suggest that they're as much to blame for this conflict as anyone else albeit, it is their country now supplying the weapons and ammunition via Lend Lease, it is their country that once again will profit from this conflict whilst some of us here in Eastern Europe wonder how to de escalate the conflict, it appears others are hell bent on escalating it outside of Ukraine.
As a footnote, I do not condone this war, I am sorry for anyone and everyone who is suffering loss from it in any shape of form as a result of the invasion, but I still have my own opinion as to why it started in the first place - the sad thing is, it could have all been avoided if only certain parties had taken the warnings coming out of Russia seriously.
As one influential American is quoted as saying, ''We will fight Russia in Afghanistan until the last Afghan.'' Let us not hope they have the same commitment with Ukraine.
I have read your argument man but i think you miss the point - it is the Ukraine and its people who fight this war, not their government or anyone else.
Funny that you remember about the Kosovo but overlook the facts of the chechen war underlined in this lecture.
The moral of the fighting Ukrainian army is high and steady and this is thir choice to press on - you can not deny that. Nato and us presidents did their share of mistakes bit the war in Ukraine is their Patriotic War and that is that. As per discussed book - nothing makes this invasion inevitable. As we, russians,joke around amid ourselves - our Tzar was given a finger, let us all die right here right now :)
Also, after re-reafing your post - who are you? Your post suggests that you are the Westerner and then… few lines after - Eastern European…. Sir, are you russian officer by any chance? :)))
@@viktorbarkar8228 My name is Tony, what's your name - Ezekiel? Just click on my name and all will be revealed albeit, I thought it might have been a big clue by itself. Chechnya, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kirghizstan, Kazakhstan - who has and who continues to stir up conflict and rebellions causing problems for Russia! Do you remember why the USA invaded Vietnam, wasn't it based on the spread of Communism and what they termed the Domino Effect. Perhaps Putin's intervention is based on a similar idea against NATO which he views as a tool of American expansionism and influence. The facts are all out there, you just need to know how and where to grab them.