We Found The Most Wholesome Community on the Internet
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มี.ค. 2022
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The post-nut clarity is probably why those communities are so chill.
dammit was my conclusion too lol
facts are all i see
Damn great minds think alike
Makes you think the reasons humans CAn be dicks is because of sexual tenshen/stress
There's a reason its also called "Sage time".
Nothing puts a smile on my face like scrolling down on a pornhub video and seeing that the highest rated comment is someone with Obama's picture going "I gotta show this one to Michelle"
Its like The most wholesome of youtube
The comments on the hub are actually top tier. You've got bros supporting each other while the video above shows Johnny Sins pile driving someone
Post nut clarity
@@Elkott matching the wisdom of a well-traveled sage
@@Elkott a force to be reckoned with
VROOOOM VROOOOM
I thought it said Johnny Sins playing someone
The hentai community used to be peaceful. But now you got the Vanilla guys vs the people who can endure any tags.
True true. However, within each separate community they are pretty nice to one another.
nah the henti community was always toxic, i do not know why the porn commment section is wholesome asf but henti comment section is such a minefield.
Idk man, people who can't handle Garnt's previous employer have been there for a while now, a special breed are the ones who bleach others' works.
hanime is just a wasteland nowadays.
>I would click on a fine looking hntai
>scroll down to check on some tags, finds either vanilla or NTR
>scrolls down to the comment section
and fking hell, the amount of shit talking and fetish shaming is just too much now compared to before where ppl ACTUALLY talked about what happened in the hntai
@@depressoespresso6522 what
Joey did the hair flip motion three times in a row cause he forgot his hair is short now 🤣
Yeah, i always had that problem.
My hair was superlong, and when i cut it i was so used to flipping it, i sayed flipping it for years. Habits are hard to break.
Got a timestamp? I "watched" the video, but I looked away xD
As someone who has suffered from a porn addiction for many years, it absolutely effects every aspect of your life. It effects how you view yourself, how you view others (especially your view of whatever you are attracted to), it effects you physically, mentally etc. It really wasn't until within the last year and a half where I started to get a handle on things and start talking to family, friends and a therapist about it. Through talking with my therapist, I discovered that I actually have some form of ADHD and that people with ADHD tend to also have highly addictive personalities. Once I started actually receiving treatment and actually dealing with my addiction head on is when staying off became a lot easier. Everyday is still a struggle, but with receiving help, it is less of a struggle
most people adhd or not have porn addictions-they just dont know.
@Venluxy Fadex real life is overrated you think urself as a loser cos u keep losing to yourself (when saying u want to quit for example).
@@diydylana3151 your therapists are absolutely unqualified for their jobs if they disregard what you mentioned
@Venluxy Fadex real life is overrated On top of what already been mentioned about feeling like a loser for no overcoming the addiction, you also feel like you're alone since something like porn addiction is a very secretive addiction, almost like you create a double life. On top of that, it makes getting into relationships much harder because in my experience, you will have a hard time being attracted to somebody that without the addiction you would be. Using myself as an example, I've gone on dates with women that looking back on didn't become anything because while they definitely were attracted to me, I couldn't reciprocate because the porn addiction wouldn't allow me too and that effects you because in the moment, you just feel like you are completely incompatible
Exactly, people don’t know how much viewing such things really affect them
I could be having an argument with my dad about a topic where I’ve read studies and reports about it, but he’ll end up looking like he won the argument just because I’m slow on the spot and have a hard time communicating the point I’m trying to make.
That's called the "Ben Shapiro Approach" which means speak fast and interrupt before the other side can form coherent thoughts.
It's counterproductive towards discussion.
@@SuikaNine True, but some of the people he talks to really had no point to stand on. But I don't like the way he argue with people sometimes.
@@SuikaNine It's something that Ben Shapiro uses but there's an actual term for it: gish gallop.
@@SuikaNine That's not really true...like at all.
First of all that isn't how Ben Shapiro actually acts. That becomes apparent when you watch literally any of his podcasts. The issue here is that you disagree with him politically but because he's smarter than you you have no other way to call him an idiot other then spewing bullshit about him like that. He speaks fast but coherent and logically, and only interrupts when it becomes clear that he's arguing against is misconceiving something (Or trying to twist his words, which is what usually happens).
Because journalists and interviewers simply can't keep up with Shapiro on a cognitive level their forced to used petty tactics such as twisting his words, which is why you seem to claim he interrupts people. HE HAS TOO!
And OP's argument doesn't even make logical sense either. If you have clear cut studies mapped out that completely counter their dad's argument, there's no reason they should have "lost the argument" due to communication skills. You simply need to cite your sources. If you can't communicate a point to the basic level of not being able to even explain a report, then why should we believe you even won in the first place? That doesn't make logical sense. Having bad communications skills is your own problem. If you can't communicate a point, then I don't know why you're pretending that he's "looking like he won". HE DID WIN. YOU COULDN'T COMMUNICATE A POINT.
And I completely disagree with being quick and coherent as counterproductive. What's actually counterproductive is when you're LACKING people skills. This whole world revolves around communication. The top of the top make their way up the chain because of INCREDIBLE PEOPLE SKILLS. If we were a society that can't communicate points, then nothing would be done and these studies wouldn't actually happen to begin with. People who want to argue a point MUST be held accountable with communication skills, and if they can't keep up, they're only hindering the conversation. WHY SHOULD WE SLOW DOWN DEEP COMPLEX TOPIC FOR THE WEAK MINDED?
@@enigmafiresup4658 I know I shouldn't willingly jump into the snake pit with you here but the irony of this comment is too much. Ben Shapiro interrupting people trying to make a point because they are slow is a perfect example of him lacking communication skills. People who make it to the top are excellent speakers and listeners. Communication is a two way street. I'm not saying that he does or doesn't do any of these things. I am saying that your comment is projecting him as a good communicator yet your supporting evidence contradicts the traits of what a good communicator is.
Maybe they're all chill because they got that post-nut clarity
PNC is depressing tho. XD
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks not for me, you might be doing something wrong
@@TM-si1ky PNC is when bust and regret it afterwards. What's good about that lol.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks some people do it like it's just another tuesday. If you regret it afterwards you probably should look into why you feel that way. I have those days too.
@@joshy-noha Yeh, well I am not talking about batting the ham or one night stands, I am talking about the feeling you get afterwards if you bust over something questionable like to something you don't feel a genuine attraction too but you were drunk or somethin. That's what I always thought PNC was.
Lord knows how much time I've spent trying to find the full version of videos I've enjoyed. Way more time than I've actually spent watching them that's for sure
Lol
that's why i made second email for sign up to those websites hahaha
loll samee!! i could recommend a website if you wish so
@@DaveKumar. I need that
@@DaveKumar. well?
Speaking of guys who spend thousands of dollars a year on porn, there is a Korean brain or heart surgeon in the furry community that usually spends almost $20-30,000 a year on macro falco and star fox porn. Dude just straights up works on saving lives just to pay for his porn
Legendary
I always assume that everyone around me is smarter than me (to give people the benefit of the doubt and because I have a defeatist personality) and it's astonishing when I'm proven right and wrong.
Same, sort of. It's my default mode, unless I have an idea about the topic.
@@pennyinheaven ye true. I like to gage the other person's depth of intelligence on a topic to avoid awkward moments.
if we're talking about Pokemon, I need to gage if you're a normie, if we can discuss if the Ranger Games or or if Jolly or Adamant Speedboost Blazakin is superior.
Yeah, my default setting is also that I'm the dumbest person in the world. I can't help it, even if I wanna think more positively of myself (cause constant negativity is also bad), I don't wanna risk becoming arrogant.
Same, it has actually negative effected me quite a lot like in ways of me trying to express when something obviously wrong or something I am sure of, I still always doubt myself and assume everyone else is correct which has resulted in many later issues by my determent.
I like the idea behind your approach. I work with well-educated individuals, think PhDs, MDs, etc., and the ones who are considered the smartest are the ones who don't assume they know everything and listen to what others have to say. Their mentality of trying to get more information is what let's them be smart, and if you just assume everyone is dumber than you you don't listen, and thus don't improve
Connor was so on point on that.
I thought, as a kid, that every kid was so fking dumb.
I’m one of the kids who never grew out of it, i *still* think kids are fking stupid
And you were right, children *are* dumb
@@benkoskinen3871 no
I think it has to do with how you’re raised
When I was a kid I was told I was smart and also had unadulterated internet access
Because of this I grew up a lot faster then other people around me, I knew swear words before other people, I knew about social media etc etc
Because of this I saw all my peers and immature and therefore stupid when in reality they were JUST kids
To be fair, I still think most kids are dumb;
"My dad can beat up Batman!"
No Timmy, no he cannot.
Because Batman is fictional and so is your dad.
When they started to talk about remembering the H I get throwbacks.
The first H I saw out of curiosity was "Shimai Gakuen". After 3 years I tried remembering the freaking name and tried everything (with no luck):
-Keywords (which made me feel sick)
-Go to the H page where I saw the video and search every single video.
-Writing the plot and asking on a forum (which also made me feel really sick). I literally remembered the whole plot...
2 years later I found it by pure luck. That was one of the small moments of happiness in my life. Of course I ended up re-watching it.
Pog, and thanks for the unintentional recommendation lol
my first was black bible so it's really easy to remember it
@@jwvprzr5532 That's a classic
At some point I realized that a lot of kids in my school were acting dumber than they actually were. I still don't know why, but acting like a fool was apparently the key to fitting in. But if I had a one on one conversation with anyone they usually surprised me with how insightful they could be.
Yes, because if you behave like a smart aas you come off as obnoxious
That's why that "it's sodium chloride not salt" kid from that cartoon is hated and memed by everybody.
I think one of the key aspects of an addiction is that you can't just quit cold turkey on a whim
I agree. It is not easy to turn off an addictive urge if you do not understand how it works.
Some mental health communities are wholesome too, but there are some within it which are pretty toxic too.
I think hgg community is pretty good and supportive.
The Horned Gobble Grappler community?
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks healthy gamer gg (hgg) community lmao
Its really odd how the mental health craze some people get spirals into borderline psicopathy in some circles. If youve seen it then you know.
@@papus615 what does that mean?
No, it's not. The discord has some good in it, but overall they can be very judgmental and self-righteous, and the TH-cam section and the subreddit are even worse.
Day and day i find myself being similar to conor and that terrifies me
Same, idk why I used to disagree with him all the time, now I'm becoming him.
Im already balding dude, IM ON MY WAY
I just realized garnt put his hand on his cheek a lot
It so cute
Now I can't stop noticing.
Sometimes the material is that good, you're in awe and have to write your personal opinion on the matter, ever after the deed I think about how great it was with analytical intent.
Yeah. Sometimes I'd end up thinking how impressed I am that the ****star that I just finished watching takes such good care of her skin. Sometimes even the male ****stars.
@@orppranator5230 Yes, attention to detail
Garnt starts talking about his shit takes... everyone: "oh god, he's about to mention the NERV acronym"
but like really nhentai community can be super wholesome too, one day when i was reading doujin there was someone in the comment saying he has gone throught a lot that lot of shit , porn addiction and he wants to suicide because i was too much for him. suprisingly a lot people roughly 20 of them or more, encourage the man and its really heartwarming
Just watch some doujin having a black guy as the one who fucks a girl and most likely it will be a ntr just then see the amount of racism in comments
on the other hand there can be very heated and very stupid arguments on nhentai
@@intermitttence2022 true
People in Popular are the most toxic ever
Hey I found the little guy in 2:18 inside the trash taste mug
mudan
This is an amazing discussion, never felt that related xD
The hub community is just amazing. The dudes are just chilling and having casual conversations after nutting without a care in the world
the most relatable discussion i ever listen to in years
10/10
2:17 eyo Mudan be chilling in that mug
Addiction is actually pretty easy to describe, in my opinion anyway. It can be described as when the absence of the addiction becomes noticeable and difficult to ignore. Gambling only becomes an addiction once not doing it has an impact on your day.
Yeah, a lot of these things are defined as such when "it impacts in a noticeable/considerable manner the every day life of the individual" which, up to a certain point, is measured.
The same applies to things like depression, anxiety or, as you say, addiction. Although there are also standarised ways to define some specific ones, like a problematic alcohol drinking problem and such.
i wouldnt describe it like that. someone that exercises regularly will feel negatively if they skip a day because doing it has become aprt of their routine, but its not an addiction nor is it a bad thing. rather i d describe it as something that affects your life negatively be it your social life (skipped on goin to a friends house cuz i was jacking off) or your physical well being (jacked off too much dick hurts but still won t stop) and crucially, something you do consistently despite negative consequences (see dick hurting example)
It's weird to think that trash taste of all things has some of the most thoughtful conversations I've ever seen in any podcast. The bits about addiction and social media arguements were really well spoken
I used to be exactly like that until pretty recently, and it didn't help that I actually was the kid that was put it higher math and reading, but I grew put of it thank God and school instantly improved for me I actually made more than 3 friends and people just like me more, that mindset it actually the most self destructive thing for kids like me in school, and it kinda hurts my soul when I see people my age or older who haven't grew out of it
it becomes an addiction when it affects your every day life. you cant do certain tasks without doing it, you have trouble sleeping if you dont do it, its all you cant think about and it makes it hard to concentrate and do your everyday tasks. if it affects your work, your relashionships, you finances, etc.
2:30 in Connor's mug is a hidden Mudan. I typically just listen to the show while I work, so I never actually see them
Porn addiction is definitely a big problem for many. Now this is not me saying porn and similar things are bad, good, neutral, should be banned or allowed. All I’m saying is that it is a problem many people (especially guys) deal with. I still struggle with it myself.
It is definitely different from other addictions too. it is a very secretive/private thing that’s not looked as favorably upon by society as other things that can be addictive are and the “post-nut clarity” can make you feel ashamed.
You can beat it though (pun intended). Put those urges towards healthier outlets. Guys go to the gym and workout. Yeah that will raise your T levels which would increase your sex drive but you can channel that towards productive stuff. There are plenty of wholesome and helpful communities that can help you get over the addiction and others that can provide you with great hobbies. Build and paint models, get into a martial art. You can do it guys!
the hilarious irony we could all stand to be as chill as this community
R-18 doujin ive seen are where many amateur artist's hang around like, they give advices on how to draw this part or how to correct this part
Especially on artists like Jorori, damn ive seen many artists on his works like all of them talking bout the art work rather than the fap
Addiction is when something effects other aspects of your life, such as choosing not to see family and friends and do "that activity" instead. Worst case scenario you also miss out on school and/or work and forget to pay your bills and can end up super in debt and/or homeless. If you routinely find yourself not attending life events or performing routine daily habits in life essential for decent socializing and/or basic adult living, your addiction is officially a problem. If you don't notice yourself and are lucky enough to have family and friends that care about you and express concern for you, don't take it lightly. It's probably a sign that something in your life is amiss and you need to reevaluate some priorities.
Just a little side thing to add to the first conversation, which I learned from an old dictionary, is that "dumb" and "stupid" have two very different meanings. The definition of dumb is "unable to speak eloquently," whereas the definition of stupid is "lack of intelligence." Just wanted to add an interesting detail I'd found a while ago.
Being ADHD and anxious expressing myself has been so hard sometimes I’ve said the dumbest shit cause I can’t get the words out or I’ll just say the first thing that comes to mind without filtering it
I assume its because, to be in that space you'll need to have your shields down and sort of expose yourself. It's hard to get angry at people or redirect your anger at people when everyone's at that level of being themself. Also let's not forget that post-nut clarity, it's pure zen.
@4:57 it doesnt work like that, its not an epiphany/satori sudden moment. but it does happen, it tends to be gradual over time digested like a meal because it has to work against existing preconceived notions in people most of the time. People don't let go of that shit easily, but people in good faith will ruminate on something they are exposed to and do adjust more than one might suspect, but its more subtle complicated process.
This is the most relatable discussion i've seen on the internet. To this day i'm trying to find a video that got deleted from the hub years ago
You too?
Mine was an hmv of a particular h3ntai bro.
I’ve always learned really fast when taught something. I pick up on things easily and not a lot of people do that as well so in school I would get annoyed some times when people couldn’t understand something I thought was simple. Not often but some times. What really annoyed me though was when someone would explain something in a bad way that really just made it more confusing to understand. Really hated when people did that and I thought they were complete idiots because they’re just confusing the people they’re trying to teach.
just golly , what a chill community indeed
@4:58 (ish) I think it depends on the person. I don't use twitter, but I try to jump ship whenever I see a new piece of information or perspective that warrants it.
2:36 Look at the bottom left trash can with connor in the trash can, that is a graphic.
As you can see here it is gone! 2:37
I had that feeling as well, but it actually was true… I kept my friends from doing the dumbest stuff! My dad requested for me to get held back in kindergarten so I was always a bit older than my fellow classmates.. it also created an odd situation in my senior year 19 pushing 20 i almost had to graduate from community college because of my age!
Joey, the King of "Trust me bro, I have sources"
2:20 look at the cup i found the editor god
It sorta makes me glad that the boys talk about it
Speaking as someone who is on a few different p*rn game discord servers. I can attest to the fact that tye people on the server are very chill, to the extent that we have different channels for sfw and NSFW topics.
7:00 try to argue with only one free hand
What I personally do is stick up 2-4 videos and just beat to that for the next few times, and then do it again, or sometimes I don’t like a video and just get a new video.
phone addiction tbh is scary
My sister told me about a friend of hers. That friend thought she was superior to everyone else because she had thoughts. The friend thought no one else had voice inside their head, she was the only one, if someone had one, she could hear it right?
crazy.
But I can relate to this, sometimes I meet people that make me ask what is going on in your head, there cant be nothing you are thinking off?
My problem with my porn addiction is that those thing take quite a space, and most of them are just picture but there's ton of them and i don't really know how to deal with it, i want to delete them but for me, they are like game item that you want to get rid of but you don't know when you want to use it
I think one reason people dont have real conversations about porn addiction is because there are a lot of people who call a non-problematic porn habit an addiction. Even if you only watch porn a few times a week, some will say that's bad and that you need to think about your consumption.
What's interesting though is that a lot of those people, when you poke their arguments a bit, will eventually admit they just hate porn and think it shouldn't exist. The conflation of use and abuse makes it really hard to talk about actual abuse, especially when it is something that both can be done responsibly and become a problem. You see this especially in the drug debate, when everything other than weed(and lets get real, many places weed as well) makes people think your doing it on the weekend to have a good time is something that needs to be stopped. They say it's because they care about your health, but dig just a bit deeper and you see they just hate what you're doing, even if its like once a year.
Lets talk about addiction more, but when we do we should talk about the actual addiction. The "boo, me no like, you stop now"-crowd can just sit and listen for a change.
Just my 2 cents on the issue
I was addicted to rule 34 shit for years I managed to get away from it physically ( I got my friend to put a password on the browser I used then told them never to tell me) but mentally the thoughts still plagues my mind constantly I know I can never fully get away but I’m doing my best.
And the incognito issue is why you should create another chrome profile instead of incognito. It's the exact same thing but you have history, saved logins and bookmarks
LMAO. Is that Mudan? 2:18
2:18. Little dude in the mug.
I remember something about mudan hiding Easter eggs.. is this what he was talking about?
Yea
I need accounts to make playlists keeping track of my favorite stuff, I didn't have them when I lived with my parents but after that what is the point of shame?
This is a pretty digibro-esque conversation
"Addiction is basically any pattern of behaviour where you cannot stand to be with yourself" - Alain de botton..
Wtf does that even mean?
@@rinrin4711You are not addicted. That's what it means lol.
Eh that overestimates our whole-ness and control. The brain absolutely fully hijacks your desires to accomplish some of its pathway reinforcements and it's why you have this cycle of determination, hijacked giving in and then shame at yourself over the betrayal. It's when a more primal part of the biology denies your will.
did any one notice the mini mudan in trash taste mug.
6:48 as nefertari cobra said in one piece: "there is no such thing as a naked king"
As someone with a porn account I'll shed light here. Sometimes I'll open pornhub and I see like 4 or 5 videos that I want to watch, but I know I'm gonna bust on the first one and never see those other 3 - 4 videos again. So I created an account just so that I can add the other videos to a watch later list for me to go through in the future when I'm in the mood and can't find anything good
Damn, you lucky. I can spend an hour looking for something remotely good and by that time I lose the urge.
@@rinrin4711 OH MY GOD, this is me everyday
Bookmarks?
I dropped the thought that I was smarter when some other guy asked a question I've been thinking about too.
I'm a defeatist, pessimistic or whatever you call someone who will always expect the worst that could happen. Because I really appreciate it if my expectations about the worst did not happen and I probably will be more happy than be disappointed.
That's why sometimes, I make decisions on post but clarity because it takes away my horniness and my megamind will process things better.
When I say something on yt and it starts into an argument, they always start saying "you are 12" or something similar
You are tho
@@Tonjit41 funny guy
2:18 Mudan get out of the cup
So. Addiction can be a tricky blurry line, but from what ibe learned from school and studies is that addiction/disorder is considered as such when it becomes so prevalent in your life, that it begins to negatively impact unrelated aspects. Maybe you cant find actual intercourse satisfactory, or it distracts you during work, or you skip a meetup with your friends because of it, or it impacts your health in a way. It's a problem when problems arise yall. Stay safe out there
2:22 Secret Mudan spotted
addiction is the moment it starts to interfere with your everyday essential activities , then it become an addiction
i randomly just found the mudan in this episode lol
Mudan I saw you in the Trash taste cup at 2:32
Why was there a mudan chibi in connors mug?
"When they're talking about pawn..."
Erm, what? Ahh, I see.
As much as I feel smarter than the people around me, it's mainly because I'm more mature than everyone around me. Half of them could be more book smart than me (I'm book smart though I wouldn't say I'm THAT smart) but because of their immaturity, it makes me feel smarter than them
Ayyyyyye! I like Joey's new haircut
I've visited many mental health experts of various kinds throughout my life due depression and anxiety and at one point the thought hit me: not a single one of them has ever questioned me about how much porn I watch. That's stupid. They ask how much you excercise, how much you eat, how much and what kind of intoxicants you use and they even ask how your sex drive has been lately. But no question about porn, incredibly common thing that can be both addictive and impact person's physical and mental health negatively in excess. It could easily be a culprit to many cases of depression and similar issues and nobody has any idea because that topic simply never comes up. That just goes to show how behind the times that field still is. Porn addiction needs more attention
forreal, humanity just keeps inventing new shit to become addicted/ruin ur life...things that society never even had to deal with are now causing crippling addictions. Porn, cell phones, social media, so many things
didn't Trash taste prove that themselves. Their chillest episodes were the hentai and doujin episodes and every other episode is them arguing
This is generally true, the exception is hentai communities when a Vanilla purist meets an NTR fan
Who's character artwork was in the trash taste mug, at 2:40. I didn't recognize it.
It's Mudan, the editor
2:27
In case someone hasnt said it yet:
EEEEEEEEY TINY MUDAN IN A CUP WHAT WILL HE DO?
From my point of view the notion of always taking everyone in good faith is a dual blade blade.
As it opens the question of should the, Tolerable tolerate the intolerate that can many ways in various scenarios that can happen.
Or it allows you acting in good faith having that good faith allowing suspicious individuals in convos
porn communities within each other are always nice but outsiders who think youre weird will always try and ruin it
1:23
Yes i chat with yes in my chat because i dont wanna start a fucking war with the things on my mind i just dodge it completely but i am so smart i know that my body doesn’t listen to me and my mind fucks with me and i am stupid in general
2:17 Mudan is in Connor's mug?? 😳
I've genuinely seen someone ask for mathematical equation answers in pornhub.
I've seen the same thing! I thought it was bizarre and also a joke.
What is more impressive is that people do give answers.
Change your pfp
@@Tonjit41 Why?
And I also recently saw someone saying for every like he got one day abstain from jacking off. 53K likes.
0:08 Speaking from experience of having listened to a couple of his takes, he probably had that feeling because everyone around him WAS stupid in comparison. Connor is super bright.
I genuinely had no idea this existed.
I mean I remember seeing things about games on there like “How do you X on Fallout?”.
Joey looking extra good here!
I feel blessed to have decent articulation
You know you’re addicted when you can’t quit it.
That's the way I see it.
I thought they'd be talking about the "Lofi Community" ❤
There's a good movie on this topic made by Joseph Gordon-Levitt. It's called Don Jon.
10:37 is that a challenge joey
I mean connors not wrong that we judge people more on the way they speak than their intelligents. I mean for example watching Joey and Garnt defending their addictions is disappointing to me on how their never gonna escape this shitty rabbit hole
What rabbits hole? Cause there are a ton of them.
2:21 Mudan on cup
You can sue somebody for food poisoning in many jurisdictions. So I low-key agree with cannur or something, but he really did worded it somewhat innacurately.
Man, least in my case that intro was relatable on multiple levels