11:38 Finally! this point is often missed when talking about Ne. I am an ENTP, and when my brother got into MBTI, and wanted my family to take the test. I already knew about MBTI and told him I knew I was an ENTP. And my family told me, but you are not an extrovert. Thing is, I am almost always quite around them. I only open my mouth to crack jokes. Because they are mostly sensors, and every time I go Ne mode, they immediately shut me down. So I barely talk to them. Because of that, I also barely show my Ne to most people, even when I am always Ne-ing in my mind. But when people show the slightest interest of Ne, I just go full of Ne, something scaring them. Thing is, I have rarely met people that can keep up with me. But when i find one, I get extremely excited. Recently, I have been dating an INTJ, she is awesome, and everything is going great. What has truly gotten me hooked, is her ability to talk about theses topics with me. Of course, she takes an Ni approach, which is good. But the last time we saw each other, we were philosophizing for an hour, and then she said something that made laugh out loud. She said in a sarcastic tone "That sounds interesting, but maybe we need to change the topic so you can monologue about something else". But really, that sense of finally meeting someone you can let your Ne loose, and not only that they have something to add to the conversations... because believe it or not, we do not like to monologue, we just can talk for hours. but we want people who can talk back. Someone that can bring new perspectives and ideas is always welcomed. But at the same time, allows us to talk freely. I do not care if people disagree, in fact i welcome it. I am not married to any idea I just spewed, I just like to keep the ideas flowing. Maybe that is why i love writing these comments, no one can interrupt me, when I write my essays... but I also get feedback in the form of comments. I do this in real life, and 99% of the people already left the conversation by my second sentence.
@@aniokay Indeed. Btw, your profile name reminds me of the MJ song Smooth Criminal... Aniokay = "Annie are you okay... are you okay?... are you okay? Annie" Just my Ne doing its thing again, lmao.
Hear, hear. Yes, exactly - it's a pain point, and it still surprises me when I find people who don't mind the 'monologue' - or that actually *appreciate* my never ending nuance. I have a philosophy/theology/gaming/discipleship group that has met almost every week for 9-10 years now, and it's so fulfilling. That's with an INFP, INTJ, ISFP. Another MAJOR eye opener for me was joining the Personality Hacker community. It was a major adjustment at my first live event to have others totally follow my train(s) of thought... I kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm talking too much, does that make sense?" and others are like, "No, please continue, it's all good!" > but actually sincerely, not just being polite. And of course, actually being surrounded by other ENFP's and ENTP's - I just didn't have any of that growing up in a small town and very small school. And I have to say, Joyce's follower community seems to also be such a wonderful crowd, too! So many kind words. 💙
Interesting explanations. What I will say is I think he got Si and Ne mixed up in one thing. He suggested Si “gathers” the data and Ne forecasts, predicts, explores possibilities with this data. However, it is actually Ne that is the data GATHERER. Ne and Se are both gatherers of data. Si and Ni are data ORGANISERS. So rather than saying that Si collects data and then Ne forecasts - it is rather that Ne gathers abstract data, which Si then organises into its own more concrete interpretation of that abstract data. Then, of course, Ne can do its possibility brainstorming etc. But it is important to recognise Ni and Si as “organisers” and Se and Ne as “gatherers” of data. Additional note: In the context of Se Ni, these users will gather concrete tangible experiential sensory data in the moment, and then this will be filtered into their organising function Ni. Their Ni will then over a period of time paint a picture with the Se gathered data - it will ORGANISE this data into an abstract pattern or concept or forecast. Ne, Si will do the other way round - these users will gather abstract, theoretical, conceptual data, brainstorm with it, play around with it, and then the data that their judging functions decide is valid, their Si will then ORGANISE this abstract data into more tangible, concrete, experiential data. Extroverted observers (or perceivers) are gatherers, and introverted observers (or perceivers) are organisers. THIS is why those who have inferior Se or Ne may neglect gathering new data, and be stuck in a rut of organising the data they already have. This may manifest in Ni doms not collecting enough sensory factual data or experiencing enough new things, and Si doms not collecting enough new ideas and concepts. This will also manifest in Si or Ni inferiors gathering too much information but not organising it. Ne dominants will neglect organising their ideas and perceived patterns into tangible data that can be then experienced, and Se dominants will neglect organising their sensory experiences into patterns and concepts. This is why Ne and Se doms appear “disorganised” and “scattery” - they collect a lot of information but neglect constructing it together in their own minds. It is also why Ni and Si doms appear “unmoving” or “stubborn” or hard to change their mind on something when it comes to their concepts or interpretation of experiences - they do not gather enough new information to rethink the concepts and experiences they have had. They tend to rethink over and over and reorganise with the information they already have.
I have to say I get majorely confused, wenn I hear the different concepts of the Ne-Si - dynamic.😅 So which one is it? The Ne collecting information or building theories? The Si comparing information to what it already knows, ok. Although these are actually two processes in one: getting facts, and comparing them. And the Ne observing abstract concepts, isn't that a contradiction in itself? You can 'observe' facts and then 'build' concepts with your mind. The few occasions where you 'observe' an abstract concept is when you read a theoretical book or have a theoretical discussion, but thats not the basis of a day to day live for most people. Perhaps I'm taking it all to literal🤷♀️ I guess I would need one or two examples to grasp the concept.
Give me a time stamp so I can see the exact context, but I suspect I used the word 'extrapolate' with Ne, not forecasting (I hope I didn't talk about Ne in that way!). Generating possibilities based on Si data points, absolutely yes - Ne connects known data points with sophisticated extrapolative leaps. Ni will also extrapolate, but that style of extrapolation is a forward simulation based on the most plausible pathway. This is another instance of allowing words to mean multiple things (because different types often use the same word to mean different things - it's a source of so much conflict). I would say that the concept you've heard is sort of accurate in very broad terms, using a very specific (and narrow) definition of Gatherer and Organizer. But it's more of a general shortcut/label. It's a bit like PH using single words to nickname a cognitive function, like Fi = Authenticity, but in reality every type can be authentic (when we're open and honest about who we are). So it's a helpful shortcut to connect Fi to Authenticity, but it's not reliable to equate all people who seem authentic with using the Fi function. I hope that helps. Very technically, all perceiving functions gather data > as in 'cognitively gleaning it'. The reliable distinction is that Se & Ne data is extraverted (outside of self) and seems like it's more 'active', while Ni & Si are introverted and personal and are more 'reflective'/meditative. Si work is done in post-processing, while Ni happens in advance, so it doesn't look like it's "going out and gathering" but the data accumulates as the process activates (so it's more 'going in to gather'). Every person with dominant perceiving function will gather as much data (of their dominant flavour) as possible because (in Beebe's terms) our dom function is our hero. The judging functions specifically analyse and work with the data to come to conclusions I know certain people whose opinion I respect use Gatherer vs Organizer as very specific label terms, but it's not a very satisfying simplification to my Ne brain. If I have time later I can continue this if you're interested, maybe after a seeing a time stamp to make sure I didn't mess up my words, and to see the context in which I used the language. Cheers! ~Kyle
Upon further reflection (to give my Fi more time to work and calibrate my ideas), I should also point out that perceiving functions do not organize, at least not in a functional/mechanical sense. They don't have preferences, they receive and pass on (filtered/specific types of) data. Organization requires changing/ordering/action/relating/deciding, which is the realm of judging functions. My context is describing the actual activity of the functions, not how a type 'shows up' to the outside world (those who talk about gatherers vs organisers seem to be talking about what types look like from the outside, and I can see those conclusions, but I'm focusing on brain function). (Dom or aux) Si & Ni look like organizers because they are always paired with Te or Fe - these functions organize the outer external world, so that's what we're seeing in action. In contrast, Fi & Ti organize the inner world: P's have freedom in the external world when their beliefs/logic/feelings/thoughts are in order. Example: I have a much easier time improvising when my Fi is in alignment: in music, I am in tune with the vision/ethos/emotion of the piece. At work, if I have a clear vision of how my project should end up, I can tackle the task from different directions and experiment with those pieces that aren't set in stone by my Fi - in looks chaotic to Ni/Si-Dom's, but it's actual not because of my Fi guiding light that's constantly calibrating as I test-iterate. PH summarizes this dynamic as the key J vs P differentiator (which boils down to 'front-seat Ni/Si with Te/Fe' vs 'front-seat Ne/Se with Ti/Fi') - J's organize their outer world in order to have inner world freedom. P's organize their inner world so they can have outer world freedom. I hope that clarifies the context/definitions of my content! :) ~Kyle
Nah, Si is indeed a data gatherer. I don't know about how exactly Se works (since I have practically NONE), but as an Si dom, I build database over time, and my cognitive functioning is entirely dependent on that. If I was put into a completely unfamiliar environment, I would appear extremely (intellectually) slow. But once I get familiar enough (= collected enough data), I would be capable to recall data at the drop of the hat. So, I'd say Si slowly collects long term and (almost if not definitely) sustained for life data (which I do put into VERY good use at my jobs) while Se is spontaneous data gatherer that doesn't quite put the data into the "library". Perhaps they are like ROM vs RAM.
The description of an Si dom's "take what you already know and improve it" is very spot on. I have a sad blob of mind for the complete lack of imagination, and yet at the same time I always say, "I can't create things but I know how to improve them". I felt so understood :)
Great presentation, thanks! I'd like to offer you another way that I see these functions. The Se/Ni axis needs a mental/ideational anchor point (for example a dream, a plan, a belief, a goal) and then the physical world is its playground, the physical world does not provide certainty or security that's why the purpose is to experience it for today (high Se) or avoid/sidestep it (low Se). For example: a person who wants to become rich so they are prepared to do anything for it and go through anything. The Ne/Si axis uses physical anchor points that provide security and certainty (these can be memories, user manuals, walkthroughs, or physical resources like money) and then once these are secure they can take off for exploration of possibilities if needed (high Ne for example would travel the world but with the safety of a full bank account, or a high Si would try to invest and be secure and uphold traditions etc) Inferior Si would manifest as a reluctance to get into stable situations and ways of life , for fear of stagnation. But the need for sensory stability is still there. But the thought of settling down for example and getting married etc. would be scarier for an Ne user than for an Se user. An Se user would probably think "it's also part of the awesomeness of life" Inferior Se would manifest as a reluctance to participate in the world, for fear that is too chaotic and will disrupt the person's worldview. But the need for physical experiences and stimulation is still there.
@@lucyk2634 Thanks! I've been thinking about these for quite some time. I'll give the judging axes a go: So, the way I see it, the Ti/Fe axis is basing your sense of self, identity, worth, worldviews etc on reasoning and putting together truths in your mind, independently. At the same time you connect with others through common rules, like being polite, expressing politically correct beliefs, etc. or being popular and attractive (Fe) So for example a Ti > Fe person will believe that society or people make no sense, or that the way people think or behave or act is illogical, and then as a result, he/she will refuse to play the social game, so to speak, this is why Ti > Fe people often are eccentric, brash, a bit awkward with others, etc. It's their mind discrediting all these social niceties or beliefs as invalid or inefficient. Think of Jeremy Clarkson from the Top Gear show in the UK. He is an extravert (probably ESTP) but the way he spits out his truths makes him really not pleasant. On the contrary a high Fe person will often go far in life because of an ability to connect with others and as a result getting from them what they want, while also giving others what they want. Here logic and reason don't matter so much. Think of a charismatic salesman, or a super kind, cute and bubbly waitress. They'll probably convince you to buy even if it doesn't make sense. You will buy from them because you like them! Te/Fi is making sure there are clear rules for everybody, and that they are followed as much as possible, and at the same time, knowing that for each person, individually, the sense of self is something very personal and that from person to person, values change and vary. What is in your heart nobody knows, but what is rational and makes sense and should constitute a rule, should be out there for everyone to understand! And there is no excuse to fail under these circumstances, unless you yourself decide to fail! High Te will inevitably suppress individuality to a certain degree, whereas high Fi will fall behind in following rules or getting success in life. This is because common rules and processes (getting a degree, following the laws, managing your money etc) are things that feel too "corporate" for the free spirit Fi dominants. On the flip side, too much following your feelings feels risky and immature to high Te users who are afraid of failure and vulnerability. So for example two extreme examples are: a Te manager workaholic who doesn't even take time off work for his personal life, contrasted with an idealistic artist who will give away his/her paintings for free because making money feels selling out to the system That's all I got! Tell me what you think :)
Outstanding video. I always find it amusing when people format their videos in a way that displays clarity about that function in all 4 spots. Good job describing Si my ENFP friend. (ISTJ).
Haha - I finally had to learn to either immediately pause and write down my insights, or let go and trust that anything truly important could come back when it's needed, and anything I forget wouldn't be the end of the world... That works, sometimes... 😏 ~Kyle
@@kbf81 Ah, I like that way of framing it. I am thankful for mobile devices with Note taking apps. I quickly get it out before it disappears back into the mysterious ether. lol. It is my way of honoring the Ne-gods, as an INFP, when I am able. I think you’re right about the important Ne-bubbles… if not now, eventually something will bring it back up if important enough. Si/Ne moment: I remember Paul McCartney saying he and John Lennon never wrote done notes to songs… If the song was good enough, they would remember it when they tried working on it or playing it the following days… So maybe there are Ne-insights that are similar.
@@kbf81 Oh, I think I remember what I was going to say. Something along the lines of “as an INFP with Ne at the Aux (and maybe because Te-inferior), I am less likely to use Ne to take action, like physically choosing an option, jumping in. I do use it to continually generate hypotheses that need feedback from others (while sitting comfortably at a computer/device) (Now I can’t remember if I said this elsewhere in another comment box. lol) (I want to know what it is like to be able to remember conceptual stuff like indefinitely! Give me Ni for a little bit!)
@@VeggieJohnx2 Exactly - and the growth point for all types is to step up the aux function and start using it in fuller ways. So your growth step is to go beyond the more internally-focused Ne and extrovert it more: start actively experimenting and test-iterating (eg - instead of just listening to music, try playing a bunch of different instruments, or if you already know an instrument, try playing a new style/genre, instead of just listening/hypothesizing). It's a step up,and usually not comfortable, but the rewards are huge.
Interesting topic, really informative and helpful for me (ISFP) in understanding different people. Would love to hear more about what people can do to get along when they are on different perceiving and judging axis. Can you make some videos on those topics as well?
Very great explanation ! Thank for the precision concerning the function manifest differently depending of its position in the stack. The confort of the 3rd function it's true ^^ I likes listening and know the others point of view, to update or confirm our knowledge/understanding.
Long time CD-ROM (Read-Only), first time commenting…. Hmmmm🤔 anyway I’ve been pondering your last point regarding idea innovation vs process innovation. What if process innovation’s more nuanced than what it is? What if process innovation’s further classified into idea-process innovation AND/OR minor-tweaks process innovation? It really got me thinking coz I see high Si users having intense fear of introducing changes into organizations (to avoid rocking the boat) whereas high(er) Ne users embrace reinventing the wheel… 🤔 I think it also comes back to how Si-ers and Ne-ers react to changes… while one might get overwhelmed and swallowed by the waves; one might get stoked and ride ‘em wavessss ~~~~~🌊
Is there a panel exploring these? Or will there be? I think it would be cool to hear even more in depth, from the viewpoints of different lead drivers… like the extended version of this quick take. I am greedy and like having the short and long versions. Anyhoo, this was awesome! My Ne wants moar! *secretly wants to hear the negative side of the axis, like experiences of the Inferior Function
The thing where you say that Si-doms can seem really different and Ne-doms seems more alike - this makes me wonder: Does the rarity of Ne-doms and the alikeness of them make it more easy for society to lump them into a category of having ADHD? A lot of the ADHD characteristics I see aound on the internet has A LOT in common with Ne-doms or even Ne-auxhilirary folks. I think the trend of diagnosing people with ADHD is really a combination of catching people with deep childhood trauma (C-ptsd that can develop into a symtom picture that resembles that of ADHD) and people that in reality just have Ne high up in their stack. And I think this is a really dangerous tendency. Because most of society is comprised of sensing people (70%) - and again, most of them are Si-doms - and if people with Ne are so alien in how they work to the Si-doms, society might prescribe diagnoses to people that are just inherently different from the majority. This is a major major issue!
ADHD is complex and also a triggering topic for many people, so I don't want to go down this rabbit hole too far. According to MBTI and data coming from the USA, there are actually more statistical correlations with Fi. Context matters a lot, too. I suspect that's because we use Te or Fe to fit into groups and comply with authorities. While Ne & Se have a hard time in very limiting circumstances, Te/Fe can often help us compromise enough to get by (but context and complexity of our situations matter a LOT in terms of how successful we can be at that). I also want to validate two sides in this debate: I think that we should celebrate neurodiversity and not shame/demonize that diversity. At the same time, many people experience real disadvantages and difficulty when their particular combination of cognitive functions + culture + context + education means that they need to rely on their 4th or lower functions. I think that we need to support and equip people who have a hard time fitting in or operating in our society - there needs to be a balance between accepting each person, and helping people grow - that's the beauty of Personality Hacker's Car Model and the ability to leverage cognitive functions. ❤️ ~Kyle
I think the over diagnosed ADHD comes from the ESxP people (they can focus very well, just don't like school and office environments so their attention drifts from work) and the underdiagnosed in the INxP people. But I would say ADHD is almost certainly related to Ne and no Se and is more common in Ti users, whereas autism is related to Ni and Fi. Ne users who are autistic are very likely to be AuDHD. INTP, ENTP and INFJ are the most ADHD types. INFP and INTJ are the most likely to be on the spectrum
Kyles thoughts about Ne-Si underlines my thoughts of how the intuition functions in themselves contains a form of logic in how the patterns and thought are formed and the dots are connected. How the information is used then could be determined by a desicion making function (stored/refined or actionable), but intuition got to include some kind of logic inherently.
I think I agree with this, *if* we define logic in terms of running a code. So each function has a set of principles (underlying assumptions) and filters data so that the J functions can then use that data.
There's so much to say! In general, though, I think the gift an Ne brings to an Fi driver is the ability to discover even better visions than what you start with - it polishes up Fi and allows it to grow stronger (testing and challenging). Trusting in Ne means you take risks, experiment, go beyond what you already know or are comfortable with, and allow the 'other adult in the car' (PH Car Model) to take charge sometimes. Personality Hacker has several podcast episodes devoted to developing your copilot - good stuff. ~Kyle
Oh Dear Lord I’ve been searching for an explanation of Se vs Si like this for two years. Yes ENFP, yes that makes sense guys. I’ve been realizing how much I meta live I can’t not experience Ne and Si roots me. I hold myself back from the world a lot too, lots of editing it can be sad. But, life is never boring and my world is endless in possibilities. I used to hate Si growing up since my Mom is an ISFJ but I also look around our home and see the Si patterns that I’ve made. It’s more creative and not as rigid as my mom’s structure but it’s there. As I age I realize how much I thought I was gathering data first but I think I see it as perceptively endless in what can happen and then going on a scavenger hunt to find the data to track those possibilities. Not everyone wants to hear our data collection haha like nobody but it is real and I do tend to be right a lot just hard to understand. My INTP friend has said that my brain moves fast but she’s learned that it’s right so she trusts it and asks what I see next since our INTJ friend sounds impressive but is not always right, I sound insane, but am disturbingly right often. Works together for sure. Awesome video! Changing recipes, brainstorming ideas for the tech tools in the NICU that would Si work since Se sucks in that context, yeassssss and knowing how social systems don’t work or work. Observing church and hospital structures and knowing it’s affects, but only over a lot of time. I can’t not observe that stuff.
Two somewhat unrelated insights on the third function: 1) It functions just enough to help your dominant function work more powerfully, and 2) "teenager" is really fitting because your tertiary thinks it's all grown up, but is still a child.
I wonder if INFP and INTP can in some cases even be more "outgoing" or "assertive" than their respective ENFP and ENTP cousins. Reason being, they have their judging function first. Or, at least, that these pairs of types may at times be similar in the level of perceivable extro-/introversion.
Not usually because they get in Ti or Fi loops with Si, and are likely to be rejected by the STJ and SFP types who are the most outspoken conformists. STJs and to a lesser extent SFPs make INxP very uncomfortable and the feelings are normally mutual. That's almost 2/5 people who make it hard and it is personal with you unless you have a skill they really value. The ENTJ and ESFJ/ENFJ are another 3 that will quickly dislike the INxP if met in groups commonly because their Fe/Te is incompatible with group pariahs. Oh, and the ENTP and ESTP will pretend not to like you because their child Fe forces them to maintain control of their reputation. That's another above a quarter who may like you alone but not in a group, especially an STJ and SFP dominated one. That's somewhere near 2/3 of people who will almost certainly have a problem with inferior Te/Fe + Ne people. And guess what? ENFP is the only extrovert left that will stick up for you if they like you. The ISxP and INxJ stay away from social groups. You probably have about a 10-15% chance anyone in a random group (not an INxx special group) actually likes you INxPing. And even then, they might not like your personal INxPing because it annoys their Te/Fe/Ti/Fi ways Therefore your Si is likely triggered big time and blocks your Ne from trying things, while your Te or Fe sits and cries because you don't fit in so many people go into denial of that function
The ENxP are usually hyper receptive to new things and their Si inferior means they don't really get super triggered and hold on to it. Even if they are unhealthy they will have an Ne/Te or Fe loop which makes them super interested in groups and making connections. If not, they may be more introverted than other extroverts but the first function leads them to people to debate or bounce ideas off regardless
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11:38 Finally! this point is often missed when talking about Ne. I am an ENTP, and when my brother got into MBTI, and wanted my family to take the test. I already knew about MBTI and told him I knew I was an ENTP. And my family told me, but you are not an extrovert. Thing is, I am almost always quite around them. I only open my mouth to crack jokes. Because they are mostly sensors, and every time I go Ne mode, they immediately shut me down. So I barely talk to them. Because of that, I also barely show my Ne to most people, even when I am always Ne-ing in my mind. But when people show the slightest interest of Ne, I just go full of Ne, something scaring them. Thing is, I have rarely met people that can keep up with me. But when i find one, I get extremely excited.
Recently, I have been dating an INTJ, she is awesome, and everything is going great. What has truly gotten me hooked, is her ability to talk about theses topics with me. Of course, she takes an Ni approach, which is good. But the last time we saw each other, we were philosophizing for an hour, and then she said something that made laugh out loud. She said in a sarcastic tone "That sounds interesting, but maybe we need to change the topic so you can monologue about something else".
But really, that sense of finally meeting someone you can let your Ne loose, and not only that they have something to add to the conversations... because believe it or not, we do not like to monologue, we just can talk for hours. but we want people who can talk back. Someone that can bring new perspectives and ideas is always welcomed. But at the same time, allows us to talk freely. I do not care if people disagree, in fact i welcome it. I am not married to any idea I just spewed, I just like to keep the ideas flowing.
Maybe that is why i love writing these comments, no one can interrupt me, when I write my essays... but I also get feedback in the form of comments. I do this in real life, and 99% of the people already left the conversation by my second sentence.
Yeah, the comment section of TH-cam is really great for writing out your thoughts 😊
@@aniokay Indeed. Btw, your profile name reminds me of the MJ song Smooth Criminal... Aniokay = "Annie are you okay... are you okay?... are you okay? Annie"
Just my Ne doing its thing again, lmao.
@@farrex0 Hehe, it's exactly from that song. One of my favourite songs. Well spotted!
Hear, hear. Yes, exactly - it's a pain point, and it still surprises me when I find people who don't mind the 'monologue' - or that actually *appreciate* my never ending nuance. I have a philosophy/theology/gaming/discipleship group that has met almost every week for 9-10 years now, and it's so fulfilling. That's with an INFP, INTJ, ISFP.
Another MAJOR eye opener for me was joining the Personality Hacker community. It was a major adjustment at my first live event to have others totally follow my train(s) of thought... I kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm talking too much, does that make sense?" and others are like, "No, please continue, it's all good!" > but actually sincerely, not just being polite. And of course, actually being surrounded by other ENFP's and ENTP's - I just didn't have any of that growing up in a small town and very small school.
And I have to say, Joyce's follower community seems to also be such a wonderful crowd, too! So many kind words. 💙
Ne-blue balls are the best! When Ne-xual needs go unmet. Yay!
Interesting explanations. What I will say is I think he got Si and Ne mixed up in one thing. He suggested Si “gathers” the data and Ne forecasts, predicts, explores possibilities with this data. However, it is actually Ne that is the data GATHERER. Ne and Se are both gatherers of data. Si and Ni are data ORGANISERS. So rather than saying that Si collects data and then Ne forecasts - it is rather that Ne gathers abstract data, which Si then organises into its own more concrete interpretation of that abstract data. Then, of course, Ne can do its possibility brainstorming etc. But it is important to recognise Ni and Si as “organisers” and Se and Ne as “gatherers” of data.
Additional note: In the context of Se Ni, these users will gather concrete tangible experiential sensory data in the moment, and then this will be filtered into their organising function Ni. Their Ni will then over a period of time paint a picture with the Se gathered data - it will ORGANISE this data into an abstract pattern or concept or forecast.
Ne, Si will do the other way round - these users will gather abstract, theoretical, conceptual data, brainstorm with it, play around with it, and then the data that their judging functions decide is valid, their Si will then ORGANISE this abstract data into more tangible, concrete, experiential data.
Extroverted observers (or perceivers) are gatherers, and introverted observers (or perceivers) are organisers. THIS is why those who have inferior Se or Ne may neglect gathering new data, and be stuck in a rut of organising the data they already have. This may manifest in Ni doms not collecting enough sensory factual data or experiencing enough new things, and Si doms not collecting enough new ideas and concepts. This will also manifest in Si or Ni inferiors gathering too much information but not organising it. Ne dominants will neglect organising their ideas and perceived patterns into tangible data that can be then experienced, and Se dominants will neglect organising their sensory experiences into patterns and concepts. This is why Ne and Se doms appear “disorganised” and “scattery” - they collect a lot of information but neglect constructing it together in their own minds. It is also why Ni and Si doms appear “unmoving” or “stubborn” or hard to change their mind on something when it comes to their concepts or interpretation of experiences - they do not gather enough new information to rethink the concepts and experiences they have had. They tend to rethink over and over and reorganise with the information they already have.
I have to say I get majorely confused, wenn I hear the different concepts of the Ne-Si - dynamic.😅
So which one is it? The Ne collecting information or building theories?
The Si comparing information to what it already knows, ok. Although these are actually two processes in one: getting facts, and comparing them.
And the Ne observing abstract concepts, isn't that a contradiction in itself? You can 'observe' facts and then 'build' concepts with your mind. The few occasions where you 'observe' an abstract concept is when you read a theoretical book or have a theoretical discussion, but thats not the basis of a day to day live for most people.
Perhaps I'm taking it all to literal🤷♀️
I guess I would need one or two examples to grasp the concept.
Give me a time stamp so I can see the exact context, but I suspect I used the word 'extrapolate' with Ne, not forecasting (I hope I didn't talk about Ne in that way!).
Generating possibilities based on Si data points, absolutely yes - Ne connects known data points with sophisticated extrapolative leaps. Ni will also extrapolate, but that style of extrapolation is a forward simulation based on the most plausible pathway. This is another instance of allowing words to mean multiple things (because different types often use the same word to mean different things - it's a source of so much conflict).
I would say that the concept you've heard is sort of accurate in very broad terms, using a very specific (and narrow) definition of Gatherer and Organizer. But it's more of a general shortcut/label. It's a bit like PH using single words to nickname a cognitive function, like Fi = Authenticity, but in reality every type can be authentic (when we're open and honest about who we are). So it's a helpful shortcut to connect Fi to Authenticity, but it's not reliable to equate all people who seem authentic with using the Fi function. I hope that helps.
Very technically, all perceiving functions gather data > as in 'cognitively gleaning it'. The reliable distinction is that Se & Ne data is extraverted (outside of self) and seems like it's more 'active', while Ni & Si are introverted and personal and are more 'reflective'/meditative. Si work is done in post-processing, while Ni happens in advance, so it doesn't look like it's "going out and gathering" but the data accumulates as the process activates (so it's more 'going in to gather').
Every person with dominant perceiving function will gather as much data (of their dominant flavour) as possible because (in Beebe's terms) our dom function is our hero. The judging functions specifically analyse and work with the data to come to conclusions
I know certain people whose opinion I respect use Gatherer vs Organizer as very specific label terms, but it's not a very satisfying simplification to my Ne brain. If I have time later I can continue this if you're interested, maybe after a seeing a time stamp to make sure I didn't mess up my words, and to see the context in which I used the language. Cheers!
~Kyle
Upon further reflection (to give my Fi more time to work and calibrate my ideas), I should also point out that perceiving functions do not organize, at least not in a functional/mechanical sense. They don't have preferences, they receive and pass on (filtered/specific types of) data. Organization requires changing/ordering/action/relating/deciding, which is the realm of judging functions. My context is describing the actual activity of the functions, not how a type 'shows up' to the outside world (those who talk about gatherers vs organisers seem to be talking about what types look like from the outside, and I can see those conclusions, but I'm focusing on brain function).
(Dom or aux) Si & Ni look like organizers because they are always paired with Te or Fe - these functions organize the outer external world, so that's what we're seeing in action.
In contrast, Fi & Ti organize the inner world: P's have freedom in the external world when their beliefs/logic/feelings/thoughts are in order.
Example: I have a much easier time improvising when my Fi is in alignment: in music, I am in tune with the vision/ethos/emotion of the piece. At work, if I have a clear vision of how my project should end up, I can tackle the task from different directions and experiment with those pieces that aren't set in stone by my Fi - in looks chaotic to Ni/Si-Dom's, but it's actual not because of my Fi guiding light that's constantly calibrating as I test-iterate.
PH summarizes this dynamic as the key J vs P differentiator (which boils down to 'front-seat Ni/Si with Te/Fe' vs 'front-seat Ne/Se with Ti/Fi') - J's organize their outer world in order to have inner world freedom. P's organize their inner world so they can have outer world freedom.
I hope that clarifies the context/definitions of my content! :)
~Kyle
Nah, Si is indeed a data gatherer.
I don't know about how exactly Se works (since I have practically NONE), but as an Si dom, I build database over time, and my cognitive functioning is entirely dependent on that.
If I was put into a completely unfamiliar environment, I would appear extremely (intellectually) slow. But once I get familiar enough (= collected enough data), I would be capable to recall data at the drop of the hat.
So, I'd say Si slowly collects long term and (almost if not definitely) sustained for life data (which I do put into VERY good use at my jobs) while Se is spontaneous data gatherer that doesn't quite put the data into the "library".
Perhaps they are like ROM vs RAM.
Excellent. Thank you🙏
The description of an Si dom's "take what you already know and improve it" is very spot on.
I have a sad blob of mind for the complete lack of imagination, and yet at the same time I always say, "I can't create things but I know how to improve them".
I felt so understood :)
Great presentation, thanks! I'd like to offer you another way that I see these functions.
The Se/Ni axis needs a mental/ideational anchor point (for example a dream, a plan, a belief, a goal) and then the physical world is its playground, the physical world does not provide certainty or security that's why the purpose is to experience it for today (high Se) or avoid/sidestep it (low Se).
For example: a person who wants to become rich so they are prepared to do anything for it and go through anything.
The Ne/Si axis uses physical anchor points that provide security and certainty (these can be memories, user manuals, walkthroughs, or physical resources like money) and then once these are secure they can take off for exploration of possibilities if needed (high Ne for example would travel the world but with the safety of a full bank account, or a high Si would try to invest and be secure and uphold traditions etc)
Inferior Si would manifest as a reluctance to get into stable situations and ways of life , for fear of stagnation. But the need for sensory stability is still there. But the thought of settling down for example and getting married etc. would be scarier for an Ne user than for an Se user. An Se user would probably think "it's also part of the awesomeness of life"
Inferior Se would manifest as a reluctance to participate in the world, for fear that is too chaotic and will disrupt the person's worldview. But the need for physical experiences and stimulation is still there.
Wow, I would pin 📍 it if I am in her place! Great comment!
Btw if you have also some insights about judging functions that would be great. But seem even more intangible then this, at least to me.
For the most part I agree with what you said but I as an Se user have no plans to ever get married. I find that it would restrict my freedom too much
@@lucyk2634 Thanks! I've been thinking about these for quite some time.
I'll give the judging axes a go:
So, the way I see it, the Ti/Fe axis is basing your sense of self, identity, worth, worldviews etc on reasoning and putting together truths in your mind, independently.
At the same time you connect with others through common rules, like being polite, expressing politically correct beliefs, etc. or being popular and attractive (Fe)
So for example a Ti > Fe person will believe that society or people make no sense, or that the way people think or behave or act is illogical, and then as a result, he/she will refuse to play the social game, so to speak, this is why Ti > Fe people often are eccentric, brash, a bit awkward with others, etc. It's their mind discrediting all these social niceties or beliefs as invalid or inefficient. Think of Jeremy Clarkson from the Top Gear show in the UK. He is an extravert (probably ESTP) but the way he spits out his truths makes him really not pleasant.
On the contrary a high Fe person will often go far in life because of an ability to connect with others and as a result getting from them what they want, while also giving others what they want.
Here logic and reason don't matter so much. Think of a charismatic salesman, or a super kind, cute and bubbly waitress. They'll probably convince you to buy even if it doesn't make sense. You will buy from them because you like them!
Te/Fi is making sure there are clear rules for everybody, and that they are followed as much as possible, and at the same time, knowing that for each person, individually, the sense of self is something very personal and that from person to person, values change and vary. What is in your heart nobody knows, but what is rational and makes sense and should constitute a rule, should be out there for everyone to understand! And there is no excuse to fail under these circumstances, unless you yourself decide to fail!
High Te will inevitably suppress individuality to a certain degree, whereas high Fi will fall behind in following rules or getting success in life. This is because common rules and processes (getting a degree, following the laws, managing your money etc) are things that feel too "corporate" for the free spirit Fi dominants. On the flip side, too much following your feelings feels risky and immature to high Te users who are afraid of failure and vulnerability.
So for example two extreme examples are: a Te manager workaholic who doesn't even take time off work for his personal life, contrasted with an idealistic artist who will give away his/her paintings for free because making money feels selling out to the system
That's all I got!
Tell me what you think :)
Outstanding video. I always find it amusing when people format their videos in a way that displays clarity about that function in all 4 spots. Good job describing Si my ENFP friend. (ISTJ).
Actually, if you feed Si-doms with your Ne-insights, and they are open for it, I think they can cruch and use those insights really efficiently!
serial monogomists with high frequency is soooo true about our hobbies, i feel called out ahahhaa
So what’s on your plate right now??? And for how long? lol
Yay, Kyle! I watched this last night but forgot what I was going to say! Yay, Ne!
P.S. Yay, Joyce! I can’t forget Joyce. Woot!
Haha - I finally had to learn to either immediately pause and write down my insights, or let go and trust that anything truly important could come back when it's needed, and anything I forget wouldn't be the end of the world...
That works, sometimes... 😏
~Kyle
@@kbf81 Ah, I like that way of framing it. I am thankful for mobile devices with Note taking apps. I quickly get it out before it disappears back into the mysterious ether. lol. It is my way of honoring the Ne-gods, as an INFP, when I am able. I think you’re right about the important Ne-bubbles… if not now, eventually something will bring it back up if important enough. Si/Ne moment: I remember Paul McCartney saying he and John Lennon never wrote done notes to songs… If the song was good enough, they would remember it when they tried working on it or playing it the following days… So maybe there are Ne-insights that are similar.
@@kbf81 Oh, I think I remember what I was going to say. Something along the lines of “as an INFP with Ne at the Aux (and maybe because Te-inferior), I am less likely to use Ne to take action, like physically choosing an option, jumping in. I do use it to continually generate hypotheses that need feedback from others (while sitting comfortably at a computer/device) (Now I can’t remember if I said this elsewhere in another comment box. lol) (I want to know what it is like to be able to remember conceptual stuff like indefinitely! Give me Ni for a little bit!)
@@VeggieJohnx2 Exactly - and the growth point for all types is to step up the aux function and start using it in fuller ways. So your growth step is to go beyond the more internally-focused Ne and extrovert it more: start actively experimenting and test-iterating (eg - instead of just listening to music, try playing a bunch of different instruments, or if you already know an instrument, try playing a new style/genre, instead of just listening/hypothesizing). It's a step up,and usually not comfortable, but the rewards are huge.
Interesting topic, really informative and helpful for me (ISFP) in understanding different people. Would love to hear more about what people can do to get along when they are on different perceiving and judging axis. Can you make some videos on those topics as well?
Very great explanation ! Thank for the precision concerning the function manifest differently depending of its position in the stack.
The confort of the 3rd function it's true ^^
I likes listening and know the others point of view, to update or confirm our knowledge/understanding.
Long time CD-ROM (Read-Only), first time commenting…. Hmmmm🤔 anyway I’ve been pondering your last point regarding idea innovation vs process innovation. What if process innovation’s more nuanced than what it is? What if process innovation’s further classified into idea-process innovation AND/OR minor-tweaks process innovation?
It really got me thinking coz I see high Si users having intense fear of introducing changes into organizations (to avoid rocking the boat) whereas high(er) Ne users embrace reinventing the wheel… 🤔
I think it also comes back to how Si-ers and Ne-ers react to changes… while one might get overwhelmed and swallowed by the waves; one might get stoked and ride ‘em wavessss ~~~~~🌊
Is there a panel exploring these? Or will there be? I think it would be cool to hear even more in depth, from the viewpoints of different lead drivers… like the extended version of this quick take. I am greedy and like having the short and long versions. Anyhoo, this was awesome! My Ne wants moar! *secretly wants to hear the negative side of the axis, like experiences of the Inferior Function
The thing where you say that Si-doms can seem really different and Ne-doms seems more alike - this makes me wonder: Does the rarity of Ne-doms and the alikeness of them make it more easy for society to lump them into a category of having ADHD? A lot of the ADHD characteristics I see aound on the internet has A LOT in common with Ne-doms or even Ne-auxhilirary folks.
I think the trend of diagnosing people with ADHD is really a combination of catching people with deep childhood trauma (C-ptsd that can develop into a symtom picture that resembles that of ADHD) and people that in reality just have Ne high up in their stack.
And I think this is a really dangerous tendency. Because most of society is comprised of sensing people (70%) - and again, most of them are Si-doms - and if people with Ne are so alien in how they work to the Si-doms, society might prescribe diagnoses to people that are just inherently different from the majority.
This is a major major issue!
ADHD is complex and also a triggering topic for many people, so I don't want to go down this rabbit hole too far.
According to MBTI and data coming from the USA, there are actually more statistical correlations with Fi. Context matters a lot, too. I suspect that's because we use Te or Fe to fit into groups and comply with authorities. While Ne & Se have a hard time in very limiting circumstances, Te/Fe can often help us compromise enough to get by (but context and complexity of our situations matter a LOT in terms of how successful we can be at that).
I also want to validate two sides in this debate: I think that we should celebrate neurodiversity and not shame/demonize that diversity. At the same time, many people experience real disadvantages and difficulty when their particular combination of cognitive functions + culture + context + education means that they need to rely on their 4th or lower functions. I think that we need to support and equip people who have a hard time fitting in or operating in our society - there needs to be a balance between accepting each person, and helping people grow - that's the beauty of Personality Hacker's Car Model and the ability to leverage cognitive functions. ❤️
~Kyle
I think the over diagnosed ADHD comes from the ESxP people (they can focus very well, just don't like school and office environments so their attention drifts from work) and the underdiagnosed in the INxP people. But I would say ADHD is almost certainly related to Ne and no Se and is more common in Ti users, whereas autism is related to Ni and Fi. Ne users who are autistic are very likely to be AuDHD. INTP, ENTP and INFJ are the most ADHD types. INFP and INTJ are the most likely to be on the spectrum
Kyles thoughts about Ne-Si underlines my thoughts of how the intuition functions in themselves contains a form of logic in how the patterns and thought are formed and the dots are connected. How the information is used then could be determined by a desicion making function (stored/refined or actionable), but intuition got to include some kind of logic inherently.
I think I agree with this, *if* we define logic in terms of running a code. So each function has a set of principles (underlying assumptions) and filters data so that the J functions can then use that data.
An Infp Male here, I Want Ne Co-Pilot More Details,.. .
There's so much to say! In general, though, I think the gift an Ne brings to an Fi driver is the ability to discover even better visions than what you start with - it polishes up Fi and allows it to grow stronger (testing and challenging). Trusting in Ne means you take risks, experiment, go beyond what you already know or are comfortable with, and allow the 'other adult in the car' (PH Car Model) to take charge sometimes. Personality Hacker has several podcast episodes devoted to developing your copilot - good stuff.
~Kyle
Oh Dear Lord I’ve been searching for an explanation of Se vs Si like this for two years. Yes ENFP, yes that makes sense guys. I’ve been realizing how much I meta live I can’t not experience Ne and Si roots me. I hold myself back from the world a lot too, lots of editing it can be sad. But, life is never boring and my world is endless in possibilities. I used to hate Si growing up since my Mom is an ISFJ but I also look around our home and see the Si patterns that I’ve made. It’s more creative and not as rigid as my mom’s structure but it’s there. As I age I realize how much I thought I was gathering data first but I think I see it as perceptively endless in what can happen and then going on a scavenger hunt to find the data to track those possibilities. Not everyone wants to hear our data collection haha like nobody but it is real and I do tend to be right a lot just hard to understand. My INTP friend has said that my brain moves fast but she’s learned that it’s right so she trusts it and asks what I see next since our INTJ friend sounds impressive but is not always right, I sound insane, but am disturbingly right often. Works together for sure. Awesome video! Changing recipes, brainstorming ideas for the tech tools in the NICU that would Si work since Se sucks in that context, yeassssss and knowing how social systems don’t work or work. Observing church and hospital structures and knowing it’s affects, but only over a lot of time. I can’t not observe that stuff.
Two somewhat unrelated insights on the third function: 1) It functions just enough to help your dominant function work more powerfully, and 2) "teenager" is really fitting because your tertiary thinks it's all grown up, but is still a child.
I wonder if INFP and INTP can in some cases even be more "outgoing" or "assertive" than their respective ENFP and ENTP cousins. Reason being, they have their judging function first. Or, at least, that these pairs of types may at times be similar in the level of perceivable extro-/introversion.
Not usually because they get in Ti or Fi loops with Si, and are likely to be rejected by the STJ and SFP types who are the most outspoken conformists. STJs and to a lesser extent SFPs make INxP very uncomfortable and the feelings are normally mutual. That's almost 2/5 people who make it hard and it is personal with you unless you have a skill they really value.
The ENTJ and ESFJ/ENFJ are another 3 that will quickly dislike the INxP if met in groups commonly because their Fe/Te is incompatible with group pariahs. Oh, and the ENTP and ESTP will pretend not to like you because their child Fe forces them to maintain control of their reputation. That's another above a quarter who may like you alone but not in a group, especially an STJ and SFP dominated one.
That's somewhere near 2/3 of people who will almost certainly have a problem with inferior Te/Fe + Ne people.
And guess what? ENFP is the only extrovert left that will stick up for you if they like you. The ISxP and INxJ stay away from social groups. You probably have about a 10-15% chance anyone in a random group (not an INxx special group) actually likes you INxPing. And even then, they might not like your personal INxPing because it annoys their Te/Fe/Ti/Fi ways
Therefore your Si is likely triggered big time and blocks your Ne from trying things, while your Te or Fe sits and cries because you don't fit in so many people go into denial of that function
The ENxP are usually hyper receptive to new things and their Si inferior means they don't really get super triggered and hold on to it. Even if they are unhealthy they will have an Ne/Te or Fe loop which makes them super interested in groups and making connections. If not, they may be more introverted than other extroverts but the first function leads them to people to debate or bounce ideas off regardless