Small speakers can get the job done and for most people they are the only option. But size does matter. And I should say up front that I'm talking about 2 channel setups, not home theatre multi-channel systems. Bigger drivers (cone area) will result in lower distortion for the same amount of output. However, most people don't hear or have a problem with the extra distortion that smaller drivers working harder produce. For most that would be an easy trade-off. But if you want the most realistic sound stage possible when you are sitting at a normal distance from the speakers, I don't think you can get that from smaller speakers. Or at least that has been my experience. There's a real difference when a bigger speaker with bigger drivers is making the sound - it's more spread out and harder to localize. A comparison could be the gentle breeze from a large ceiling fan as opposed to what you get from a smaller fan sitting on your desk. Sound isn't the same as airflow, but people tend to think of them in the same way. I have had many different (mostly homemade) speakers and always go back to ones that are bigger. My normal take on a claim like this is to say that perception is clouding judgment, that the bigger speakers sound bigger because I can see they are bigger. And there is some truth to that but I've tried to be as objective as possible. Other specific differences also can play a part, like open baffle instead of a boxed speaker. Or multi-way instead of a 2-way. It's my opinion also that a 3-way or 4-way can almost always present a more complete sound stage than a 2-way. Again, it's about cone size and the area of air that's being moved. A 4-way will use three drivers to do what's done with one driver in a 2-way.
Everything in home audio is compromises as you stated. I'm a fan of large two ways. Best bang for buck but still tradeoffs, to a point. Waveguides can make a massive difference in dispersion and sound and when correctly utilitized can make dramatic impacts. Anarchy two ways are some of the best I've come across. Never seen a better performing woofer in it's size. The rest is all subjective. All depends on what you like and what you listen to. I got to hear a set of 1.2 million dollar speakers. For certain music I've never heard anything better. For the music I listened to, I didn't enjoy it at all. For those of us with wide arrays of musical taste we are kind of screwed. No array of components can do it all well. Linkwitz knew this well and designed accordingly.
My own experience has pushed me in the same general direction as John. A woofer that's oversize for the room will be able to produce cleaner, more immersive bass than a small woofer that has to work hard. I've also moved away from 2-way setups, in favor of 3-way or 2.5-way. This is mainly due to my listening preference. I like to have deep rumble when possible, but I also like tight midbass. Getting both those qualities in a single driver can be challenging. So I delegate those duties to 2 separate drivers.
Thank you for your composed explanation John. It is nice to hear a well prepared and intelligent presentation of your findings and opinions. I really enjoy my open baffle speakers and servo subs. I do feel that many people with small speakers buy a small speaker to fit an spot rather than positioning the speaker in the room to allow it to perform as it should.
I like having stand mounts with separate small rel subs. I like the freedom of dialling in the subs independent from the speakers through trial and error. Can also crank the bass if the mood takes.
John… I have learned so much about speakers and you have clarified so many things I didn’t understand (previously) I watch your channels every chance I get. Thank you
100% agree with this. Its also the feeling of the dynamics as well and possibly lack of distortion. The bigger speaker will also do that much better in general. My Open Baffle speakers (DIY) are twin 15", twin 10" mids and a horn
Well... My ears tell me that the most natural mids 6.5” drivers produce. If we talk about a 3-bands system. If you have more, of course ypu can play mid bass with 10”, upper bass with 8”, low mids with 6”, upper mids with 4”, and so on ;)
@@sc0or well and that also depends on how low the high frequency section will go. If using a compression driver and horn, you can easily match a 10 inch driver that is actually designed to do mid :)
Yep.... I feel bad for all the young kids who have totally missed out on our era of home audio from 70's-90's... Seemed like every kid's parents had a nice home audio system with GIANT (by today's standards...) system in the living room.... Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony... It didn't matter which house we wound up at - you could experience the real "magic" of listening to music at higher levels... Now? Just not the same having a small bluetooth speaker in the corner... I'm going to pull my old B&W's out if the garage, recap the Adcom stuff, and bring it back.... (well, at least until my wife starts yelling....)
I completely agree John. I have built large speakers and bookshelf. A larger speaker has a greater sense of scale and has the ability to fill the space. A bookshelf can perform very well but in a larger room the scale will be diminished.
Dude, you are a maverick! Thanks for making the point concerning the relationship between driver diaphragm excursion and distortion....Also, thanks for having the guts to make the case for large speakers...The presentation is larger and more optimized....The problem is there are so many "whipped" dudes out there ruled by SAF(spouse approval factor).
Bigger drivers also work best when paired with more powerful amplifiers. It's the combination that produces the least distortion when neither is pushed to the limit.
Thanks John I completely agree have open baffle myself and everything that you’ve indicated it is tough to describe and articulate exactly but the point is that they do present a larger, musical backdrop and instruments and singers are more life-size and come from the space behind the speakers, not in front of the speakers
Love your channel. Could you do a detailed/up close review of your finished open baffle spekers and your overall satisfaction with them now that you have had some time with them? They are gorgeous. You are a true craftsman.
Years ago we had the traveling Sesame Street come to our venue. It’s a 1500 seat theater, that had a huge cluster of speakers that never sounded great. They brought in a Bag End system with a Sub woofer that was about a 16” box that they set of the front corner of the stage and the had a center cluster of 3 speaker, all of which were smaller than a single speaker in the house system. That theater sound never sounded that good again.
I built some speakers with 6" woofers and 5" FR drivers in small floorstanding speakers (in a smallish room). And then I built some speakers with 10" woofers and 10" coaxials. Yep, bigger is definitely better! 😂
i think you have to pick, point source or line source, and the line has to be almost floor to ceiling. to get that big sound from, small speakers you can cross over a pair of stereo subwoofers at 200hz, and of course have a 200hz high pass on the main speakers.
I have mostly experience with bookies, but if well dialed and good and augmented by subs, these you give get a rather large sound stage, with very good imaging and speakers that totally disappear. My limited experience with floor standers is that while you can get large sound stage and scale, you are also more likely to get less specific imaging, more wall of sound presentation (relatively) and more chance that you can localize the speakers. These are deal breakers for me personally, but I guess that’s going to be very subjective and quite possibly I just haven’t heard the right “large” speakers 😊 Also listening at 60-70 db distortion/displacement is pretty much a non issue.
The Elac's have pretty wide directivity, actually. It's more air being excited to produce the sound, in whatever form that takes. The sound is coming from a bigger area.
I think you should have a raffle and one lucky viewer will win the chance to come sit in your home theater room, drink a few beers, and watch a movie with you. Or maybe listen to the 1812 Overture.
What is a large speaker? A tweeter and maybe a midrange usually in a box with a passive woofer. This is nothing that cannot be exceeded by a small three way and a sub. That's how B&W made a system years back. But a sub, unlike passive speakers, has multiple eq adjustments. Room correction, etc.
One thing that was not mentioned in this video... was the quality of the Driver itself. I have Audiophile grade 8" woofers (sealed box), that produces lower bass frequencies, and is faster + more accurate, than cheap 12" woofers (ported box). The 12" woofers probably weigh Half as much as the 8" woofers. The 8" woofers, use a much stronger Magnet, and stronger coils... and thus, they can far outshine the cheat 12" woofers, by Miles. So in that case... bigger is NOT always better. That said... IF you have the same quality drivers in different sizes... then you would want to go with the larger sized drivers. No smaller than 8", in my opinion. But if you get too large, you could also suffer distortions from the cone itself... as well as might have issues with accurate acceleration of the much heavier cone (even with the more powerful magnet + coils). As such, a 10" would be faster (and thus more accurate) than a 12"... merely due to weight / physics. Its a balancing act.
I said "well designed" drivers and that extends to how they are used. Price isn't always a measure of quality - you need to understand what makes a good driver and how to best use it. An expensive 8" in the wrong size box that's ported when it's supposed to be sealed won't sound better than a low cost 15" woofer in an open baffle, when the driver is perfectly suited for open baffle.
Just out of curiosity. how does a driver receive an "audiophile grade"? And what organization and standards are being used to quantify such a designation as "audiophile grade"?
A driver is Audiophile Grade when it comes from an Audiophile Grade manufacturer, staffed with Audiophile Grade people who work to the Audiophile Standard. They consult with the Audiophile High Priest before starting a new design and he takes note of the inception date in his Audiophile Record Book to verify the lineage.
@@IBuildIt No dude. An audiophile grade driver... is a driver that has been designed with higher level engineering, precision assembly, and better materials. The biggest factor, however, is the use of much stronger / larger magnets, and stronger voice coils being used. The stronger the magnetic forces.. the more Precision control over the driver... as it can accelerate, stop, and reverse.. much faster, despite the momentum and mass. Stiffer baskets. Stiffer, but also lighter Cone material. Optimal design in the size, depth, and spacing... of the coil assembly. And potentially even hand matching speaker drivers... as Sennheiser does on their Headphone drivers. As Ive said, I have cheap 12" drivers, that are total dog poop... compared to the 8" EPI woofers, which decimate them in performance, accuracy, punch...etc. Despite being smaller... they still weigh about 2x as much. You cant actually expect all speaker driver to operate the same, right?! Thats like visually judging a cars performance, by looking at the outside body! What separates a generic car, from a racing car... are VERY different things! From enhanced brakes, stiffer frames to prevent twisting and flex, higher powered engines that are tweaked.. turbo'ed.. and optimized, higher grip tires, upgraded suspension systems... and more. Two speaker driver of the same diameter, can sound Vastly different.. for these same reasons.
@@IBuildIt Part 2: Im going to add... that when my Phillips Woox woofers rotted... I initially tried to swap in woofers from sony, aiwa, and a few others that I had collected. ALL of them sounded like complete a** compared to the originals. In the end, I had to get the originals refoamed... and it was worth it (until the woox passives started to rot). The other drivers sounded flat, midrangy, and lacking in depth and detail. They were awful. All of them used the same approximate ohms. It was the difference in design, materials, and construction... that made those Phillips drivers superior. Those particular drivers, were made in Taiwan, by a certain higher-end driver manufacturer. Not a cheaper Chinese factory, whom are clueless about driver design technology... whom use the cheapest materials, and whom dont care about the overall quality (good assembly standards).
One thing never spoken about concerning bass and addiction of subs compared to floor standers requiring none, is the coherency of bass (left and right) built into the floor standers by design. I'm fortunate to have always had a setup that subs would not enhance. I love my 802d2's and their room filling coherent dynamics and other attributes! A manufatured speaker that does lows on it's own trumps a sub any day.
Yes. Bigger is better. There is no replacement for displacement. Small highly tuned engine that has to grunt hard to achieve the performance of a big engine that can effortlessly unleash power at a lower RPM.
Some people say speakers with smaller, narrower baffle produce better, more precise and detailed Soundstage than speakers with large baffle. What's you experience on that?
Small speakers can get the job done and for most people they are the only option. But size does matter. And I should say up front that I'm talking about 2 channel setups, not home theatre multi-channel systems.
Bigger drivers (cone area) will result in lower distortion for the same amount of output. However, most people don't hear or have a problem with the extra distortion that smaller drivers working harder produce. For most that would be an easy trade-off.
But if you want the most realistic sound stage possible when you are sitting at a normal distance from the speakers, I don't think you can get that from smaller speakers. Or at least that has been my experience. There's a real difference when a bigger speaker with bigger drivers is making the sound - it's more spread out and harder to localize.
A comparison could be the gentle breeze from a large ceiling fan as opposed to what you get from a smaller fan sitting on your desk. Sound isn't the same as airflow, but people tend to think of them in the same way.
I have had many different (mostly homemade) speakers and always go back to ones that are bigger. My normal take on a claim like this is to say that perception is clouding judgment, that the bigger speakers sound bigger because I can see they are bigger. And there is some truth to that but I've tried to be as objective as possible.
Other specific differences also can play a part, like open baffle instead of a boxed speaker. Or multi-way instead of a 2-way. It's my opinion also that a 3-way or 4-way can almost always present a more complete sound stage than a 2-way. Again, it's about cone size and the area of air that's being moved. A 4-way will use three drivers to do what's done with one driver in a 2-way.
Thank you for taking the extra time to write the synopsis comment.
Everything in home audio is compromises as you stated. I'm a fan of large two ways. Best bang for buck but still tradeoffs, to a point. Waveguides can make a massive difference in dispersion and sound and when correctly utilitized can make dramatic impacts. Anarchy two ways are some of the best I've come across. Never seen a better performing woofer in it's size. The rest is all subjective. All depends on what you like and what you listen to. I got to hear a set of 1.2 million dollar speakers. For certain music I've never heard anything better. For the music I listened to, I didn't enjoy it at all. For those of us with wide arrays of musical taste we are kind of screwed. No array of components can do it all well. Linkwitz knew this well and designed accordingly.
@@jim9930, so by your logic headphones can barely play any music at all?
@@VioletGiraffe There isn’t any apples to apples in comparing a set of speakers to a pair of headphones. Two totally different products.
My own experience has pushed me in the same general direction as John. A woofer that's oversize for the room will be able to produce cleaner, more immersive bass than a small woofer that has to work hard. I've also moved away from 2-way setups, in favor of 3-way or 2.5-way. This is mainly due to my listening preference. I like to have deep rumble when possible, but I also like tight midbass. Getting both those qualities in a single driver can be challenging. So I delegate those duties to 2 separate drivers.
Thank you for your composed explanation John. It is nice to hear a well prepared and intelligent presentation of your findings and opinions. I really enjoy my open baffle speakers and servo subs. I do feel that many people with small speakers buy a small speaker to fit an spot rather than positioning the speaker in the room to allow it to perform as it should.
I like having stand mounts with separate small rel subs. I like the freedom of dialling in the subs independent from the speakers through trial and error. Can also crank the bass if the mood takes.
you can do that with floor standers as well
John… I have learned so much about speakers and you have clarified so many things I didn’t understand (previously) I watch your channels every chance I get. Thank you
Love these videos! Thanks John
100% agree with this. Its also the feeling of the dynamics as well and possibly lack of distortion. The bigger speaker will also do that much better in general. My Open Baffle speakers (DIY) are twin 15", twin 10" mids and a horn
Well... My ears tell me that the most natural mids 6.5” drivers produce. If we talk about a 3-bands system. If you have more, of course ypu can play mid bass with 10”, upper bass with 8”, low mids with 6”, upper mids with 4”, and so on ;)
@@sc0or well and that also depends on how low the high frequency section will go. If using a compression driver and horn, you can easily match a 10 inch driver that is actually designed to do mid :)
No replacement for displacement! I also prefer the sound of larger speakers 🔈👍🏻
Yep.... I feel bad for all the young kids who have totally missed out on our era of home audio from 70's-90's... Seemed like every kid's parents had a nice home audio system with GIANT (by today's standards...) system in the living room.... Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony...
It didn't matter which house we wound up at - you could experience the real "magic" of listening to music at higher levels...
Now? Just not the same having a small bluetooth speaker in the corner...
I'm going to pull my old B&W's out if the garage, recap the Adcom stuff, and bring it back.... (well, at least until my wife starts yelling....)
Nothing beats displacement!!!
I completely agree John. I have built large speakers and bookshelf. A larger speaker has a greater sense of scale and has the ability to fill the space. A bookshelf can perform very well but in a larger room the scale will be diminished.
Dude, you are a maverick! Thanks for making the point concerning the relationship between driver diaphragm excursion and distortion....Also, thanks for having the guts to make the case for large speakers...The presentation is larger and more optimized....The problem is there are so many "whipped" dudes out there ruled by SAF(spouse approval factor).
Bigger drivers also work best when paired with more powerful amplifiers. It's the combination that produces the least distortion when neither is pushed to the limit.
A powerful amp makes a huge different its my experience even with a smaller speaker
Thanks John I completely agree have open baffle myself and everything that you’ve indicated it is tough to describe and articulate exactly but the point is that they do present a larger, musical backdrop and instruments and singers are more life-size and come from the space behind the speakers, not in front of the speakers
Thanks for making this video, would like to see my on the room and equipment . Great space!
Couldnt agree more, the only replacement for cone area is more cone area.
Love your channel. Could you do a detailed/up close review of your finished open baffle spekers and your overall satisfaction with them now that you have had some time with them? They are gorgeous. You are a true craftsman.
Thanks John. What kind of music are you listening to, typically?
Wondering if electrostats like Martin Logan present a larger soundstage.
I've heard Magnapans and I'd say those are probably similar and IMO they do present a larger presentation. More height and size.
That's what she said!
she did 😆
Years ago we had the traveling Sesame Street come to our venue. It’s a 1500 seat theater, that had a huge cluster of speakers that never sounded great. They brought in a Bag End system with a Sub woofer that was about a 16” box that they set of the front corner of the stage and the had a center cluster of 3 speaker, all of which were smaller than a single speaker in the house system. That theater sound never sounded that good again.
I built some speakers with 6" woofers and 5" FR drivers in small floorstanding speakers (in a smallish room). And then I built some speakers with 10" woofers and 10" coaxials. Yep, bigger is definitely better! 😂
i think you have to pick, point source or line source, and the line has to be almost floor to ceiling.
to get that big sound from, small speakers you can cross over a pair of stereo subwoofers at 200hz, and of course have a 200hz high pass on the main speakers.
I have mostly experience with bookies, but if well dialed and good and augmented by subs, these you give get a rather large sound stage, with very good imaging and speakers that totally disappear. My limited experience with floor standers is that while you can get large sound stage and scale, you are also more likely to get less specific imaging, more wall of sound presentation (relatively) and more chance that you can localize the speakers. These are deal breakers for me personally, but I guess that’s going to be very subjective and quite possibly I just haven’t heard the right “large” speakers 😊 Also listening at 60-70 db distortion/displacement is pretty much a non issue.
And large are terrible in small, sometimes medium rooms.
Agree
Is this difference you noticed omni-directional vs narrow directivity? That is what it sounds like.
The Elac's have pretty wide directivity, actually. It's more air being excited to produce the sound, in whatever form that takes. The sound is coming from a bigger area.
I think you should have a raffle and one lucky viewer will win the chance to come sit in your home theater room, drink a few beers, and watch a movie with you. Or maybe listen to the 1812 Overture.
Maybe he dont drink...
I'm baffled. ~
I hear you.
Not that it matters, but I agree wholeheartedly.
Can I get your recommendation, I own Polk T50 tower speakers. I want to upgrade the tweeters , what are my options¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Your work is 🔥🔥🔥
Most of the time yes, larger speakers give better room filling dynamics.
I have Heil air motion transformers from the 1980s. Best speakers ever!
What is a large speaker? A tweeter and maybe a midrange usually in a box with a passive woofer. This is nothing that cannot be exceeded by a small three way and a sub. That's how B&W made a system years back. But a sub, unlike passive speakers, has multiple eq adjustments. Room correction, etc.
One thing that was not mentioned in this video... was the quality of the Driver itself. I have Audiophile grade 8" woofers (sealed box), that produces lower bass frequencies, and is faster + more accurate, than cheap 12" woofers (ported box). The 12" woofers probably weigh Half as much as the 8" woofers. The 8" woofers, use a much stronger Magnet, and stronger coils... and thus, they can far outshine the cheat 12" woofers, by Miles.
So in that case... bigger is NOT always better. That said... IF you have the same quality drivers in different sizes... then you would want to go with the larger sized drivers.
No smaller than 8", in my opinion. But if you get too large, you could also suffer distortions from the cone itself... as well as might have issues with accurate acceleration of the much heavier cone (even with the more powerful magnet + coils). As such, a 10" would be faster (and thus more accurate) than a 12"... merely due to weight / physics. Its a balancing act.
I said "well designed" drivers and that extends to how they are used. Price isn't always a measure of quality - you need to understand what makes a good driver and how to best use it. An expensive 8" in the wrong size box that's ported when it's supposed to be sealed won't sound better than a low cost 15" woofer in an open baffle, when the driver is perfectly suited for open baffle.
Just out of curiosity. how does a driver receive an "audiophile grade"?
And what organization and standards are being used to quantify such a designation as "audiophile grade"?
A driver is Audiophile Grade when it comes from an Audiophile Grade manufacturer, staffed with Audiophile Grade people who work to the Audiophile Standard. They consult with the Audiophile High Priest before starting a new design and he takes note of the inception date in his Audiophile Record Book to verify the lineage.
@@IBuildIt No dude. An audiophile grade driver... is a driver that has been designed with higher level engineering, precision assembly, and better materials.
The biggest factor, however, is the use of much stronger / larger magnets, and stronger voice coils being used. The stronger the magnetic forces.. the more Precision control over the driver... as it can accelerate, stop, and reverse.. much faster, despite the momentum and mass.
Stiffer baskets. Stiffer, but also lighter Cone material. Optimal design in the size, depth, and spacing... of the coil assembly.
And potentially even hand matching speaker drivers... as Sennheiser does on their Headphone drivers.
As Ive said, I have cheap 12" drivers, that are total dog poop... compared to the 8" EPI woofers, which decimate them in performance, accuracy, punch...etc. Despite being smaller... they still weigh about 2x as much.
You cant actually expect all speaker driver to operate the same, right?! Thats like visually judging a cars performance, by looking at the outside body!
What separates a generic car, from a racing car... are VERY different things! From enhanced brakes, stiffer frames to prevent twisting and flex, higher powered engines that are tweaked.. turbo'ed.. and optimized, higher grip tires, upgraded suspension systems... and more.
Two speaker driver of the same diameter, can sound Vastly different.. for these same reasons.
@@IBuildIt Part 2: Im going to add... that when my Phillips Woox woofers rotted... I initially tried to swap in woofers from sony, aiwa, and a few others that I had collected. ALL of them sounded like complete a** compared to the originals.
In the end, I had to get the originals refoamed... and it was worth it (until the woox passives started to rot).
The other drivers sounded flat, midrangy, and lacking in depth and detail. They were awful. All of them used the same approximate ohms. It was the difference in design, materials, and construction... that made those Phillips drivers superior.
Those particular drivers, were made in Taiwan, by a certain higher-end driver manufacturer. Not a cheaper Chinese factory, whom are clueless about driver design technology... whom use the cheapest materials, and whom dont care about the overall quality (good assembly standards).
One thing never spoken about concerning bass and addiction of subs compared to floor standers requiring none, is the coherency of bass (left and right) built into the floor standers by design. I'm fortunate to have always had a setup that subs would not enhance. I love my 802d2's and their room filling coherent dynamics and other attributes! A manufatured speaker that does lows on it's own trumps a sub any day.
Yes. Bigger is better. There is no replacement for displacement. Small highly tuned engine that has to grunt hard to achieve the performance of a big engine that can effortlessly unleash power at a lower RPM.
Some people say speakers with smaller, narrower baffle produce better, more precise and detailed Soundstage than speakers with large baffle. What's you experience on that?
I wouldn't take it as a written-in-stone rule. I think positioning has a much bigger impact on sound stage.
That is absolutely false and actually a larger baffle can image much better as the baffle step frequency is lower.
Agree 100% I prefer tower speakers I have the space for them no need to worry about using a sub!
The dumbest thing I have seen , is wedging giant speakers into small (especially untreated) rooms.I prefer three-way speakers no matter what.