New California rules are crushing the solar industry
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- California’s solar industry is facing tough times after state utility regulators changed the rules for rooftop solar last spring. KPBS environment Reporter Erik Anderson says sales are down and layoffs are up.
I bought my own system for about $12,000, then inflated an invoice to around $24,000 and took the 30% tax credit on that. Then after screwing the IRS a little bit I said screw you to the electric utility and my local building dept. and did not get a permit or an interconnection agreement. My battery system operates in PV self consumption mode with zero export to the grid. My system saves me about $3000 per year and therefore my payback period is under three years. Screw them all!
So I don’t understand what was the actual change and how it affects your ability to make money as a solar company. The rules changed, the regulators made it harder how? Because there is a cap on cost? The crux of the matter was not even talked about with more thorough insight in this video.
Exactly my thoughts too.
They changed what customers with solar get for their excess power. It went from what the utility charged the customer for the power to the whole sale spot price. Because of excess solar production the spot price frequently drops to below $0.00.
Now matter what,our Chinese solar panel distributor find no harm😅😅
@@matthewhuszarik4173 I understand people are upset by the change, and I'm trying to understand the 'why' the change. Is it because it wasn't economically feasible to compensate customers for excess solar production?
@@dmitchell63 The rule forced California utilities to supply power to customers when it cost significantly more than when the customers sent power to the utilities. On sunny days that aren’t hot the spot price of electricity goes negative. So California utilities actually have to pay for neighboring states to take the excess power. So the Utilities are required to buy the power from customers at the rate they pay for it then they have to pay neighboring states to take it. That isn’t a recipe to stay in business.
Realize that Net Energy Metering was not a California government decision. It was a HUGE lobbying process by the power companies who have massive power. Companies like PG&E, SDG&E and LADWP were all paying the retail price of energy to rooftop solar users. They lobbied so they would only have to pay the wholesale price of the power rooftop solar provides. So the payback time for new solar installations lengthened dramatically. The only financially feasible way for a homeowner to install solar now is to have a home battery and keep all the power they create.
The only good news is that if you had solar installed prior to April 2023 then you're old contract is grandfathered in for 20 more years.
Mod, agreed! The problem is that residential and small businesses-scale batteries are as weak and overpriced and poorly built as the first generation Tesla Roadsters. But while new model Teslas are now better vehicles than any ICE, if you buy a Powerwall, you are stuck with the homeowner’s version of range anxiety! In ten years, a base-model home storage battery will hold 50 kWh of electricity and be made of a fire resistant chemistry with commonly available materials; sodium, aluminum, iron, etc. And, when the price for 50 kWh of storage drops below $10,000 or $15,000, PG&E and the rest of the California electricity cartel will lose their captive, residential customers!
I disagree with the multi-thousand-dollar battery, the highly commissioned item does not generate electricity. My utility pays 8 cents a kilowatt wholesale rate and if I don't create more power than I use it's worth for retail to me, 22 cents a kilowatt. I live on the rail belt in Alaska, the state regulates and I am pleased with my results. Passing through the Transformer it loses 10%, and to the next Transformer to the customer another 10% power loss. If it's not oversized it doesn't matter what the utility is willing to buy your Excess power for because you're using all that you're producing, the right size rather than four times the consumption with the expectation of the meter paying for the entire system while you ride free everybody else's bill goes to the moon. Nobody wants to pay 30 cents a kilowatt for electricity so how can they expect to sell it for that price, ultimately the goal of electricity is to be inexpensive like 5 cents a kilowatt for all, and replace carbon-based fuels.
@@zAlaskathe people that decided to go solar were never going to pay full market overpriced utility rate for electric. They want that electric as cheap as possible. This should have no impact on rising electric cost for everyone else. The utilities assume if you didn't have solar you would pay full utilities rate and thus lower cost for everyone. That's a fake argument distopian thinking and false because those that got solar refused to pay overpriced PGE rates.
Imagine if PGE was running a coffee shop and they said those that like to make coffee at home(home solar generators) instead of going to our shop is the reason why your coffee (pge electric rate) must cost more. How ridiculous an argument that would be. The utilities using those sneaky arguments to make rate payers blame solar generators for rising utility cost.
The solar industry is upset because they can no longer sell people 100k dollar systems that cost them $30k to buy the parts on the idea that homeowner would shift their bill from the power utility to the loan they took out has a ROI of 50 years. Solar contractors are mostly scammers IMO anyone who has a salesman is overcharging.
Why should utilities have to pay retail price for solar energy? This industry was subsidized multiple ways by others mainly for the benefit of the single homeowner who got in at a certain time. The only person who should be paying for the connection to the grid is the homeowner who decided to install solar.
Almost all economic struggles are induced by government. I so wish they all would find something else to do with their lives. They cause so much pain and suffering and accomplish so little.
So much for California Democrats addressing Global Climate Change, it was never about that anyway.
What do you get when you sell your stored excess solar from your battery?
Roughly next to nothing. Maybe a couple of dollars
@@boblatkey7160 Completely wrong. You are paid by ACC rates. These get revised every so often. For the first 5 years of NBT (NEM3) you are locked into whatever rates are at interconnect for 9 years. Anybody connecting 5 years in, or after 9 year period expired, is having their ACC rates update every year.
So for 10 months of the year, yes they're garbage and you are operating the battery normally to avoid peak rates and get you through the night depending on how you scale your system but during aug-sept you can pretty easily make $1000 with exports+VPP. So the battery is going to pay itself back before warranty ends just through those two months and some VPP events. Still very economical, its just the free ride that was NEM1/2 is over. And yes, its IOU greed primarily but its indisputable that solar existed previously as a pure handout to homeowners. That is why it was so rife with scammers, it was easy guaranteed money. It wasn't sustainable growth at all.
Who does the puc work for?
Definitely not the public...
Hopefully the consumers. Buying solar power from residential panels at 30 cents a kilowatt is Sky High expensive, losing 10% of its power every time it crosses a Transformer to be resold increasing the power rate for everybody. Size right you don't export much power, those that build systems 5 times larger than they can consume are hoping those who cannot afford solar panels will pay for the solar panels through their electric bill. They were receiving 30 cents per kilowatt for their Excess power. It has to be resoled at a higher price. Are you willing to pay 40 cents a kilowatt, the highest rates in the country, so that those with excess can't have you pay off their solar panels? What price do you want to pay for electricity, how much do you want to buy it from those with air conditioned swimming pools in their backyard with Excess power to run a village? What's the maximum price you're willing to pay before you leave to Texas with free nights and weekends Electric Power?
@ericantonissen2192 solar panel producers were receiving 30 cents per kilowatt which has to be sold at a higher price with loss at each Transformer. Those that build just the right size aren't phased by loss of Revenue, and you seem to believe that consumers can afford to pay more and are not looking for lower utility rates especially in the poor neighborhoods that can't afford solar panels. This is designed to make Power rates go down benefiting all the customers, Alaska offers 8 cents a kilowatt not 30 cents per kilowatt and the utility is 22 cents retail. Do you want to pay more for electricity or less and how much more do you want to pay as this will bring electric prices down what you don't seem to think it's good for the consumer
@@zAlaska Transformers are better than 95 percent efficient with standards going up to 98+ percent. For residential rates where I live electricity rates are already north of 40 cents per kWh. The red herring about overbuilding one's solar system 5x or what have you is ridiculous. At the time of permitting you are constrained by the rules from overbuilding based on prior usage. In my case I had a solar system installed in a house I was remodeling and argued that I would have an electric heat pump for HVAC (prior was a gas furnace) and an electric car and I was granted about a 50 percent upscale from what the previous owners had consumed. By the way, it was a 89 year old woman who lived alone but the permitting process restricted me from installing a system that truly met my needs. That said the real pain came when the PUC changed the peak hours as well as allowed the rates to increase so drastically. That said, I am luckier than most because I am still on NEM 1.0. The CPUC has now effectively killed residential solar in California especially with the soon to be coming increase in connection fees based on income because even people who purchased home batteries will see a significant increase in costs.
@@zAlaska Look at what solar contractors are charging some as high as 10 cents a watt to install a system. These contractors got rich by selling a system that had 50-80% profit wrapped up in it. They were able to sell these systems to homeowners on the basis that utility would pay for it. Now they have to take less profit when installing them lay off the salespeople.
Not one dime of federal or state money should subsidy the solar industry .
Sure, when not one dime goes to oil. Also want untold trillions back from iraq war for oil, bp oil spill, etc. Thanks in advance.
Solar is still a good deal, just not nearly as good as it was. Now, if you wish to add solar, you will have to limit the size of the system to what your average daytime electrical use is. That is a lot smaller than your total usage. A lot. But it will still save some money.
Sounds like the folly of the residential solar hot water systems of the 1980s.
In Portugal, you have also metering. But the company’s don’t pay you back. Just ad zero. So, if you make the math, you only should install what you will need, and don’t over size.
If your tied to PG&E you will lose, better solution is a Solar Generator. This powers 90% of my house. MY last two bills were under $40.00 and we had a heat wave.
What is your Solar Generator?
Well a battery in a box is not a solar generator! Holy moly
I wouldn’t have thought NEM 3.0 would have such a a big impact
I earn 8 cents a kilowatt in Alaska where the retail price is 22 cents a kilowatt that was a great investment for me, they're offering over 30 cents per kilowatt to solar producers previously in California which is too much, adding solar is supposed to make the power cost go down for everyone rather than go up as some produce way more than they consume, a balance that is unsustainable. Smaller less expensive installations. Industry is fleeing the high electric cost an expensive solar is part of the problem. I'd be looking on how to get some stimulus money to reduce the cost of installations and recalculate the optimal size of new installations going forward.
30 cents but we pay 36-43 with a usage allowance of 300kw anything over is 48-53 cents
@@haha20042003sounds horrible 😮
So you have to store the solar yourself with an investment in battery to avoid paying at peak hours?
What are you talking about?
Disconnect from the Grid... SOLAR + Batteries & Generator. Power Companies need to allow us to disco to make the grid stronger.
Yes what a great idea! Imagine an entire neighborhood with everybody running their generators in the evening because we had had cloudy weather the last couple of days. You actually have no idea what you're talking about!
Unions are not happy with Solar
The state wants to encourage people to install solar batteries to use during off peak hours 5:00 pm tp 9:00 pm.
yea... because they want homeowners to pay for upgrading the grid. The power companies want the ability to pull the power from those powers when THEY need it. Screw them. Even if I installed batteries, I would never allow them to pull power from me, even if it costs me money by not allowing them to do so.
In typical California fashion. Regulate business out of existence.
No, it is purely technical. The grid does not work like a storage where you can feed in and pull out power for the same conditions. With increased solar expansion this becomes more and more a problem, see the duck curve, all pv generators feed in at the same time and generate nothing at night.
Power systems are a real time machine, load and generation have to match each other for 31.536 million seconds a year.
The solar business will shrink to the size it where it should have always been, net meetering has created a bubble at other peoples expenses.
Yeah, fifth largest economy on planet earth. Go ahead and make fun of us.
@@boblatkey7160 vapid response.
@@duckhunt1058 wow, educated words. Impressive. Meanwhile business continues to thrive in California.
@@boblatkey7160 worn out talking points. Maybe learn about the politics of California.
Very bad coverage. The explanation of where the rules actually create the problem is insufficiently explained in my opinion. This video is simply an opportunity to broadcast b-roll video footage devoid of all but the most minimal amount of information.
This is an important topic. Why not do a better job, a decent job of covering it?
Just go for off-grid solar. Period.
How about the airline industry -can you even imagine how much jet fuel is burned every HOUR in our skies. 100,000 every day !
Yes, I agree, solar panels for airplanes! Great idea!
We're running short on power and the utilities and legislatures are discouraging a clean and economical opportunity. Capitalism isn't always smart or good but it's always capitalism.
What the California Democrats do best…….CRUSH BUSINESS
It got passed because the regulators through the app public utilities commission got paid more than the taxpayers are offering them.
The utility companies are not going to be allowed to be put out of business. What do you think?
Bottom line - the big Utilities pay off the Democrats to ‘look the other way’ after they propose that those who invest in solar do not get the benefit because - the large utilities get to charge a large monthly fee for that privilege. The PUC has ALWAYS been a joke in California and this proves it. Time to vote these overlords Democrats, starting at the top, out….
California is all about storage. If they paid for the batteries, it would take off. California has plenty of solar. We need storage for night time. California should give home owners a flat rate of 12 cents kw in return home owner will install 3 batteries.
Hey, Buffett gotta make money,yo!
he's no friend of solar. he loves his power monopolies!
ز،د
Bidenomics
The power companies did this in Nevada and Florida too. Hawaii also had a big problem: Too many rooftops feeding in to the 20th century grid.
Tell me what a 21st century grid is..
@@TemperTemper... Anything that wasn't updated past January 1st 2001 is 20th century.
@@Vancev99x Updated how? I'm interested because I retired from the utility in 2017.
@@TemperTemper... Then ask yourself what major changes happened after 2000? Most grids still have wires from the 1960s and 80s. So some have reached their life expectancy. I'm sure we are losing a great deal in conversion due to old equipment. It's almost neglected.... not as bad as our railroads but it's not great.
@@Vancev99x The wires??? Lines are selected to handle a certain amount of load..Selected for their current handling capability..I didn't know that power lines have a life expectancy. LOL
NEM 3.0 is a ripoff… a solar system w/🔋 backup costs 2x as much as without 🔋 under 2.0 & the utilities give you 10% of what they were paying previously. The math just doesn’t add up
What the utility companies has done, with the aid of the PUC (because they have been in the back pocket of the utilities for as long as I can remember) is just pure greed. And it is going to hurt everyone, including the utilities. People that I know are doing non-grid tied systems to keep the power for themselves and storing their energy in batteries for when the power goes out (which happens all the time where I live) and for usage at night. Paying for solar and, in essence, giving it to the utilities is a no go. All the while, the utilities have not kept up on addition or repair to the existing infrastructure which is in dire need. We need all the solar, wind, ebb & flow of the ocean, hydro-electric and geothermal we can get. We are in the electric age now. It has been obvious, since the 50s, that the fusion reactor in the sky was the easy choice and for decades the utilities could have been putting in solar farms all over the place and we would not be dependent all the harmful ways to produce energy.
It’s time to build a solar grid so we don’t have to rent the electrical wires from these dinosaur power company.
You spent over four minutes discussing the deleterious affects of the new regulations without once explaining why they were adopted in the first place. The retail price power producers charge customers covers not just the cost of producing the power but also the costs of building and maintaining the transmission lines necessary to deliver power to consumers. Rooftop solar owners don't share in the costs of building and maintaining the grid. By allowing them to sell power 'back to the grid' at retail prices, rooftop solar owners were in essence charging for something they didn't deliver (the costs of building and maintaining the grid). Not only is this unfair, it forces traditional power producers to raise rates.
When there were relatively few residential rooftop solar power installations, allowing those owners to sell back to the grid at retail prices didn't create much of a problem. But, as the price of electricity increased, the incentive to install rooftop solar also increased, which created an increasing need for power companies to raise rates to cover the portion of grid costs that weren't being paid by rooftop solar producers, which led to more solar installations and more rate increases, etc. This is the problem the new regulations were designed to address.
Are they doing this to protect utilties?
No they are doing this to keep the utilities from going bankrupt..Utility expenses do not go down linearly with the buying of electricity from home owners. Utilities still have to have generating plants manned and ready to go when solar isn't there...Utilities still have the cost of keeping up the grid..Utilities still have to buy expensive power from neighboring states when conditions aren't right for solar and there are heavy loads. The problem with solar is that it isn't there 24/7. If it was people who had solar would remove themselves off of the grid.
@@TemperTemper... They should be going bankrupt especially after their wires caused the fires that killed many people. Then the customers had to pay the settlements LOL!
If they go bankrupt who will deliver your electricity? You people are nuts and will get what you wish for.@@jjman533
Solor scam
There is a reason for this...
Solar energy in incredible at generating power... WHEN THE SUN IS OUT! But once an energy grid gets too solar heavy, you need a place to store ALL that solar energy.
Let's just say: "California has more than enough energy flowing onto their grid from noon-4pm." The law had to change to protect the reliability of the grid!
If you're a CA resident, the only solution is to start generating and storing your own power with solar + battery storage. The Utility rates are way to high.
The industry refuses to pay the workers what they deserve, owners and salespeople take the biggest chunk and leave the actual laborers with peanuts. I don’t care if the whole industry implodes, your greed got you here.
In the future, solar is going to become so common that these high compensation solar sales jobs won’t pay as high as they do right now. These jobs won’t probably even exist anymore in 25 years. Solar is going to become what the cellular companies have become by being ubiquitous in adoption and mandated by governments due to climate change, which would lead to lower pay for solar reps and companies. Solar panels will even look different and appear in an entire different form factor as they do now. Same thing happened in auto sales, internet sales lowered the compensations for all auto sales reps throughout the last 30 years. The utilities are in trouble because the grids are so old, outdated, and pose a risk to national security, which is another reason why the govt wants homes to go solar.
I hate big corporations and utilities as much as anyone, but the concept that electric companies should pay retail for what they can produce or buy for less is crazy. No business can exist on paying retail. Add that they have to maintain the grid that connects all this together, then provide grid power when many/most solar/battery installations are dead.
I love solar and renewable energy. I am not a fan of tax payer money funding residential solar. Take that money and invest in large projects with batteries and get far more and benefit everyone. Individual households that can afford solar should by all means do so.
The prevailing wage rules on Commercial projects are also making it impossible to grow that business. Silly and self destructive.
Don't start a business with a flawed product.
There's nothing flawed about it! Solar energy has been 100% of my paycheck for the last 26 years! Guaranteed I work far less than you do and make way more than you do!
@@boblatkey7160 Nothing you wrote addresses my statement. Con men throughout history have made big money.
@@9davidlong Not sure I understand you. I'm simply stating that solar energy and energy storage on a residential level is not flawed at all. It works beautifully and has done so for decades. I have hundreds and hundreds of customers who all are super happy with their system, it has been very reliable, and has provided them a very comfortable return on investment, along with the satisfaction that they ride through long-term power outages with no inconvenience to their lifestyle. So again, what is flawed about that? I am as far away as a con man as you could possibly get.
It is easy to sell when imcentives make the neighbors pay for the purchase.
Solar companies are still thriving today because of the high energy rates in California.
As they say, the land of fruits and nuts.
You mean the fifth largest economy on planet earth?
If you voted for Gavin I don’t care about your problem.
Would you like a little KY jelly to go with your Fox News programming?
it sounds like the regulators have turned into cronies
In Calif it's been that way for decades.
Stating how much electricity is being provided by renewables is misleading because the electric power can be of an erratic nature requiring expensive conditioning from fossil fuel power plants running at high availably consuming high levels of fuel for little increase in power output. Southern California has the most expensive electricity rates in the USA with San Diego CA peak residential rates being over $0.60 kWh. Electric residential rates in 2020 for a suburb of Indianapolis Indiana, Cumberland were about $0.10 kWh. Many of Southern California's public power electric grids are in bankruptcy.
Net metering means the public power grid has to buy erratic solar electric power which it has to be able to instantly pickup any dips in. With the high cost availability required from natural gas and coal plants a lot of extra fuel and wear and tear is pushed on to them for providing that instant makeup electricity. A lot of the time the public power grid is having to buy erratic power from renewable energy sources at high cost that is of little worth. That makes everybody else having to pay a lot more. That especially impacts lower and medium income people that don't have the capital to invest in solar electric panels with much higher cost electricity.
Huh?
@@jazzfan7491 It means solar and wind energy have been use to mislead people in believing they can make electricity economically and sustainably. There is no place on earth that is true and these are mature industries. This is use for such facilities, but not on a public power grid.
Storage batteries and physical pumping schemes for release as hydro power just entered the chat.
Based on solid economics. If you do not like net metering put in a non grid tied system. I will be dammed if I will support my net metering neighbors.
I wish the video would have actually explained what this issue was. The video is over and I have no clue what the problem is. I don’t know solar and came out of the video even more clue less, like many others in the comments.
@@Adrian-op5ni I agree with you, and KPBS deserves to hear from you, and me, and others about how bad their reporting is on a very important topic. What I glean, is that the utilities had to pay people with extra solar power, the same rate to buy their extra power, as they do charge when they sell the customers power, or about 12 cents a kilowatt hour. However, there is a spot market price (which is a free-floating price, changing moment by moment, depending on the overall utilities' needs) The spot market price can fall below zero (less than $0.00 per kwhour) in times of excess supply, and the utilities want want to pay this lower amount whenever they can, not sure of exactly those details. So the rules were changed to allow the utilities to pay less for the power they buy from homeowners, and so it takes a lot longer to pay off a solar system, so fewer people are buying and installing them. I hope that helps!
California law makers and regulators would mess up a wet dream!
My solar quote under 2.0 NEM was $20k , now under 3.0 NEM is $50k. Yes more bc batteries, but even the panel price went up. Makes no sense now.
Inflation
Batteries are also $12-$15k a pop so your system might need 2 as well which definitely affects the cost
@@tristansilva not just inflation. I didn’t do it that time because solar companies were charging a mark up because of “high demand”. Now the demand has plummeted so I should be getting better or equal pricing for at least the panels.
@@HH-yc7oz is that $50k including batteries or is just the panels? Bc I agree, if it’s just the panels and the same type, that’s outrageous. But if the new quote includes batteries, there you have it with the difference.
& u get 3-5 cents/KWH under 3.0 instead of 30-35 cents/KWH under 2.0
3.0 total ripoff
This is so one sided as to be comical. Forcing the power companies to buy power at retail rates has always been absurd and CA was the only state that kept this going to avoid the cost of subsidies that they would otherwise have to pay. This rights a situation that was so wrong on so many levels. The real problem is that the vast deserts of CA where the only resource is sunlight sit undeveloped for solar power because CA is too broke to build the transmission infrastructure needed to bring this power to the end users.
New CA rules shouldn't affect growth, at all, as new solar customers just need to add a battery to use all the excess power they overproduce, and rely on the grid for rare times.
“Just” needing to add a battery 😂 that’s like 15k more per system.
The problem is the batteries to store all your excess power can easily double to quadruple the price of the installation. I paid $17,000 for 4kw solar and a Power wall. The solar was $7,000 the Power Wall was $10,000. I still send a majority of my excess power produced during the day to the grid. To store it all I would need a minimum of another Power Wall and ideally another two. That would over double the price of my installation.
Better stick to your art gig .
@@jamesbottoms6912 smh 🤣
Overpriced and solar scammers.
I just installed solar and battery in Anaheim CA which has opted to keep NEM 2.0 I chose Tesla as my supplier and installer and they were great pricing was very competitive, it worked 1st time, 18 (7.25 Kw total) panels, and 2 PowerWall 3s for a total of 27Kwh storage,
I ordered the end of Nov 2023 installed mid-February 2024, I day install and they only turned off power for at most a couple of hours.
I got my 1st electric bill and it was down from $400 to $100 over the 2-month cycle very pleased especially as that included 2 weeks of grid power.
That's encouraging. Do you know if certain other areas of LA County have opted to keep NEM 2.0 as well....
I don’t know
Most of the other utilities in this area are very greedy so probably not
Solar contractors will have to offer a product at a reasonable price. The days when they could gouge people's pocketbooks with the help of a slick talking salesmen are gone. Electric utilities cost money to operate not free solar industry is upset because they can't make millions of dollars a year in profits. Anyone can look at the prices of what solar cost compared to what a solar contractor trying to talk you into buying. The salesmen will claim they can zero out your bill then when you complain they say it's because you're using too much power. Now you're paying a lease and an electric bill.
What the government gives; the government can take away.