The Cataphract Completes Byzantines | AoE2
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At some point of every AOE2 player, the Byzantines were their favourite civ.
It's a top 3 between the Byz, the Goths and the Teutons lol
so true lol
Byz, Brits, and Persians for me lol
Falso. Siempre jugué civilización aleatoria... Mi favorita es los Godos. Y tampoco lo he pickeado siquiera 10 veces en toda mi vida de juego
Was my best civ when i was a child and play AOC. Now is mayans and portugueses
I just want to add some extra info about the Cataphract:
When Elite, the Cataphract has 12+2 attack, 12 anti-infantry bonus damage and another 6 anti-infrantry bonus damage from Logistica. This equals to a total of 32 Damage against infantry.
Now, if we look at the match up against halberdiers, a fully upgraded Halb has 3 melee armour. This means that the Cataphract deals 29 damage against a Halb.
However, a Civ like Goths that are missing the last melee armour will only have 2 melee armour on Halbs, meaning that the Halb takes 30 damage from a Cataphract.
So, this means that in Post Imperial age, the Cataphracts will 3 hit a fully upgraded Halb and 2 hit one that is missing the last armour.
However, it gets even better. Since the Cataphract has one of the quickest attack speeds at 1.7 seconds per attack, where the Halb has a 3 seconds per attack attack speed, the numbers line up so that against a Halb, that is missing the last armour, Cataphracts only take 1 hit from the Halb vs 2 hits from one will full armour upgrades.
*the math* - First hit is at time 0 for both. Then 1.7 seconds later the Cata attacks again killing the 2 melee armour Halb.
vs 3 melee armour Halb, First hit is at 0 seconds, 2nd hit is at 1.7 seconds and 3rd hit is at 3.4 seconds. By that time the Halb can attack again at the 3rd second.
So in conclusion, Cataphracts that are vs Halbs that lack the last armour, like Goths, Khmer, Huns, Bengalis, Lithuanians etc., can snowball the match-up even harder, possibly surprising the opponent how quickly his army melted.
True and even fully upgraded Halbs start falling in 2 hits once numbers increase->trample damage comes into play.
Yes, the number of civs that have halberdiers and the last inf amor upgrade is only like a third of the civs out there. Everyone else trying to go for pikemen not only gets screwed with only 6 bonus dmg, but also their pikes getting 2-shot because they only have 55hp instead of the halbs 60.
Only Gurjara camels can compete against catas btw because of their additional bonus dmg and unique tech melee armor of +4, even Hindustani and Saracen camels trade poorly against catas. Oh, and all theye civs lack halberdiers which, as much as they suck vs mass cata can still overwhelm and outgrind them and are thus the best trash counter there is against them.
Still, if you use a staggered formation, halbs still counters Cataphracts cost effectively.
@@benedictjajo How much are we talking about? Last time I checked, Elite Catas can quite easily kill three times their number in halbs and have a good number of survivors though you'll usually want like a 2:1 ratio to lose next to no catas. Also if you just add elite skirms to buffer your cata numbers, it gives a much more realistic scenario than one player just having pure catas.
@@couchpotatoe91 Actually 10 Cataphracts can take out 40 fully upgraded Halberdiers with about 20% HP left.
Spitting Cata-Facts
Nice 😂
The Byzantines have been one of my favorite civs since AoK first came out. They've always felt so adaptable, a great civ to go for if you're unfamiliar with a map or an opponent. I've also always liked the 'unexpected' counters - Cataphracts countering anti-cav, Huskarls countering anti-infantry, etc.
I feel like you got the idea for this vid after your 10x civ bonus / unique tech game with the Byzantines, doing 50 trample damage in a 10-tile radius per unit
Also true from a historical Perspektive: the Byzantiner Army was strongest when their backbone was formed by wehrbauern (Farmers) of which a number of Had to equip a kataphract. Later they resorted mainly to sellswords and WE all know how well that ended.
"Im making quite a case for them...I might go buy one myself"🤣🤣🤣
Meanwhile there is Urumi Swordsman to complete Dravidians, right?
Right?
11
11
Urumi fits the Dravidians perfectly. Like the lid on a trashcan.
Byzantines are such a well-designed civ, and the changes over the year have enhanced that. Great video exploring this iconic unit more!
Long long time ago my very favorite civ, and very favorite unit. At some point I have played so ,much with Byzantines that eventually I got really bored LOL
One of those overpowered units that you never get to in a real game
Lol catas are not op, they are easy peasy for paladins and archer civs.
@@osmanyurtseven7609 Cataphracts shouldn't be operating alone. They should be fighting along with plenty of skirmishers and/or halberdiers, camels, paladins for support.
@@osmanyurtseven7609 not for Paladins. In larger groups (15+) Cata's trade cost effectively due to trample damage.
@@skipper472 you may get beautiful combinations in other civs also. Some counters with some gold units combo, it is just a classic combo for age. Saying overpowered to catas really is cruel i think.
With all the damage increase that we saw recently, the bonus hp of the byzantines buildings is more and more relevant, i really appreciated this video as i never noticed the importance of Cataphract in castle age against meso civs!
Loved the video! My favorite civ until i die! The only thing you forgot to mention was the monks' amazing healing * rate.
We've just having a talk at Age of Empires forums on buffing the Cataphract or not, couldn't be better timing lol
Take a shot everytime you have to think about it.
I mean as good as the Cataphract is between the costs and the fact that you need a castle also make Byzantines very vulnerable if you just keep them off stone or keep harassing them they won't have a good powerful option to go for. It's like going for fully upgraded Paladin but with extra requirements.
(I really like Byzantines and Cataphract but I've seen myself and SOOOOO many other people loose using them because it's just really hard to do)
To highlight the anti-bonus damage, (Elite; Cataphracts) take (0;0) bonus damage from (Elite) Genbows, (0;0) from Camels, and (2;6) from Heavy Camels. They absolutely slaughter these ‘counter’ units. Monks, mass range units, or heavier cav like Boyars or Elephants are the best way to deal with them.
cav archers is the answer. Byzantines don't have an answer for that. Cheap skirms aren't as mobile as cav archers.
My fav civ
💯💯💯
GOOD GAME
Follow up question @Hera: In terms of castle upgrades for the Cataphract, should I always get elite first, or if I can mass them in late castle age would it make sense to go with the imperial age upgrade and then go elite?
If this thing counters anti cav units and its cav itself, what counters it except monks? I would guess archers but what if your civ doesnt have good archers?
Good cav can trade good vs cata
Cataphracts have no hard counters. You can only trade reasonably effectively against them.
Heavy calvary pretty much hard counters cataphracts.
Their raw stats vs. paladins, for example, are no match.
Of all their bonuses, only their trample damage comes into play, and against high hp units, it is just not enough.
But as Hera points out in this video, Catas are not meant to be played alone. You mix your cheap halbs in with your Catas and boom, the enemies counter is nullified.
No need to counter it when it costs ridiculous amounts of resources to update. If Byzantine player wastes that much resources to make it, you should be well ahead already.
Cata really important so you have a fast answer to infantry Unique Unit.
most good infantry UU are at least passable vs Arbs. and almost all are faster than HCs. but Catas shut that door so hard like prime Shaq against a Highschool team.
👍🏻
Back when the game had the extremely game breaking infinite tech research bug we did a lobby game with a gentleman's agreement not to exploit that bug. I played standard and had a ball of 60 arbs. I then see 10 cataphracts from the enemy run over and slaughter my entire army with just a few hits. That guy did not honor the agreement.
sick
When considering that Cataphracts are only produced from the castile, I think they are too expensive to upgrade/produce. Those upgrades just dont make sence when you could be building trebs, bombarbd and spamming out other cheap units. Its just like bombard towers, why bother when i need casiltes and Tc.
Is the anti-cavalry armor also added on by logistica?
Yes catas are good but how to use them effectively even for late game with so much expensive tech to research…..maybe they need to merge logistica with elite upgrade or some kind of buff 🎉🎉
I honestly don't think missing blast furnace on halbs matters anything. Goths lack the last armor upgrade which is probably even more significant, yet no one would claim Goth halbs spam is anything but strong.
Halbs are there to soak up damage, not to deal it per se.
Cat-a-fact
Good timing. Just stomped japanese halb and samurai with full cataphract on arena 4v4 yesterday
KD was like 300-50
Can't you make Arbs/HC for most of those applications at a tiny fraction of the cost? I've always felt that's most of why we rarely see them, the enormous cost which surpasses paladin being the rest.
You cant mass hc before imp
Mobility is much less for arbs/hc.
Cataphracts force a stronger reaction from your opponent than just a bunch of skirms and siege.
a)Mobility b) UUs that beat Arbs c) pop efficiency.
@@allaboutgames2796 You can easily outmass cataphracts even if you start making HC in imp because you like have 10 ranges for making skirmisher already.
I still kind of hope that dev would at least made their castle age a bit stronger like other melee cav UU,
there were used to had only 4 melee cav UU in AoC, but after FE made lots of cav UU,
it feels like old AOC infantry UU with their meh data if compared with knight, which most of the cav UU can beat them 1v1 or in same mass,
They should be like 10~11 atk and with 115 hp in castle age, 9 ATK and 110 hp is a joke for nowadays cav UU.
Talking about Byzantine ranged units and not bringing up their HCA while saying they lack mobile options smh my head
HCA with no bloodlines isn't great
@@mundolincurve7577 Well, they're no Frank HCA, but at least they have Thumb Ring, Bracer, and Ring Archer Armor
Man, I've always considered the Cataphract to be a trap. Overpriced and underpowered. This video opened my eyes to them.
I played Goths vs Byzantines to get knocked out of a tournament on Budapest. Sadge. I was nervous and thought I could trade halb vs cataphracts. No lol. What could I have done? Hand cannoneers and halb? Idk.
I am a 800ish elo player who exclusively plays Byzantines.
As a low elo player I love how Catas fit perfectly in with the Byzantine cheap trash units. Not to mention how most players my elo have no idea what to do against them
It just feels so freakin' hard to get there. Not only b/c of the high unit cost and high upgrade cost. You also have to make several castles to mass them, which just adds to the units already super high cost. Especially for a civilization with no eco bonuses.
So I wonder, is there a way to make them a little easier to get too without making Byzantines or Cataphracts overpowered. Like decreasing their training time or a small late game eco bonus like making eco techs a little cheaper if you're in Imperial age.
Byzantines already have a very strong eco bonus, namely saving 25% on all counter units. Cata is supposed to be hard to get to as it has no clear weaknesses.
If you make them cheaper/faster to train they also need reduced HP and 0 PA.
@@daarom3472 On the contrary Cata does have a clear weakness in heavy calvary. Also, while the discount is a good indirect eco bonus, try comparing it to other civs.
Incas for example have a similar indirect eco bonus in reduced food cost across the board, not just trash units. They then have two further eco bonuses in reduced stone costs and needing to make fewer houses.
Byzantines have two other indirect eco "bonuses" as well, in cheaper Imperial Age and a full eco tech tree. However, the full eco tech tree rarely has a chance to pay off in 1v1 games. Discounting eco techs in Imp would synergize really well with the cheap Imp letting Byzantine players get the techs early enough for them to pay off and actually help more often in 1v1s.
I admit I could be wrong and just need to "git gud". It just feels to me like a slight buff of some kind that does NOT increase the post-imp power cap of the civ could make Cata play more common and let Byzantines compete more easily with the top tier civs without being oppressive to lower tier civs.
@@ycampbell7672 heavy cavalry is not a clear weakness for cata's. In decent numbers they trade evenly with Paladin.
Another discount is the free LOS techs, thats 3-4 vils up from TC time and also some vils saved by having it earlier.
Incas are a completely different civ, and I agree they have stronger eco bonuses. Just saying "don't underestimate discounts".
@daarom3472 Fudge, blanked out on the los one.🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Still, I maintain that heavy calve hard counters cata. My personal experience aside, every video I've seen matching up cata vs pallie, leities, konnik, boyar etc, both with total resources and with equal resources, catas get absolutely wrecked. Paladins have the additional bonus of being much easier to mass.
For reference:
th-cam.com/video/IQ3Mg9vT_bw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=m9-7CydyNYgUH1P7
Even with equal numbers:
th-cam.com/users/shorts-mkSX-EVtJw?si=aLiUG2RadR2Cy_WV
I also want to reiterate that I don't think Byzantines should get any kind of bonus that makes them stronger post-imperial. I just think getting there should be a little smoother.
@@ycampbell7672 the 2 links you showed dont show the Cara's being wrecked. They show a quite even fight that the Paladin narrowly win. Now if both sides throw in halbs as part of their army the outcome is very one sided.. Agree Paladin are easier to mass though.
I do agree units like Boyar and Leitis (and Monaspa) doninate cata's, but these are pretty broken units by themselves when massed (they also dominate Paladin).
I always pick Byzantines when I have to play on Arena. With Cataphracts by themselves I have absolutely destroy archer/halb combos as well as infantry and mezo civs. I heard that archers are a good counter to cataphracts, but most often than not that does not seem to be the case. The only thing that seems to beat them is stronger calvary like Paladins, or unique cav units like the boyar or Lietis.
Hey Hera can you do a video on TC, castle and tower build times pending on civ and/or how many vills you have building the structure??
Am I watching Hera or Spirit of the Law!!
I don't watch that much pro play outside of tournaments, i don't remember seeing a single game with cataphracts and a win (just from my observations by no means an absolute reality) I also saw it massed only once in 700 ranked games at 1200 elo. My problem is that it is way too expensive and dies to everything that isn't camels or infantry. their lack of pierce armor make them vulnerable to arbalesters (although they shred them if they get to a surround in melee) and even cavaliers trade well against them considering the upgrade cost difference. And if you need to pair them with halbs, well that's another 600 gold down the drain. I just feel like when going for them you already need to be in a winning position with map control on the extra golds. Otherwise they could benefit from a small buff like maybe +1/1 armor or 10hp. I do however think that their paladins are extremely underrated as bloodlines is way less impactful on paladins as it is on other units due to the relative small percentage increase and the same goes for blast furnace.
For cataphracts to actually become a powerhouse, it requires nearly twice the amount of paladin upgrade, not including the various cavalry upgrades required. You can train 50 hand cannoneer for the price of logistica + elite cataphract alone... and this is with creating 0 cataphracts afterwards. It feels quite ridiculous to invest in it unless you face some civ like goth or Japanese who spam billions of halberdiers.
@@skipper472 even so japanese halbs do pretty decent against cataphracts
still a bad unit for investment. They requires multiple castles, their upgrades are overpriced, the unit itself is more expensive than a knight.
its one of my favorite units in thev game but i miss the old look of it, pre DE catas looked so much cooler
Imo Byzantines should get bloodlines. 🤷
Do you really need 11 minutes to say that "Byzantines have counter units"
3570 🥩🥩🥩🥩
1870 🪙🪙🪙🪙
5440 🥩🪙
That's no joke.... Not viable in 1v1.
I played byzantine campaign using a catap + heavy CA deathball which is insane