DIY-Installation? Don't forget about Inverter Grounding and Neutral-to-Ground Bonding!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 พ.ค. 2021
- Hi, in today's video, we are talking about a very important topic when it comes to using Off-Grid and Hybrid Inverters. In DIY installations, it might happen that correct Grounding and Neutral-Ground Bonding is overlooked. At least those inverters, which are intended to be installed into houses, do not have internal bonding. Every user is responsible for correct installation.
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This Video :)
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• In-Depth: Earthing and...
How?
• Earthing and Bonding o...
Simple Off-Grid?
• Inverter Earthing and ...
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Hi Roland, I'm from South Africa. Your video on neutral earth bonding on the inverter is the best I've seen. Very well done and thank you!
Thanks Emile! Greetings to South Aftrica.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore I sat down with paper and pen and drew out exactly what you said I could do with my grounding issues and it all makes sense toe now. Thankyou again for helping me.
Yes, Austrian engineers are among the best! Did you know that RCDs were invented there? Was an Austrian company , products are now sold and well known as Eaton.
Thank you for making these videos, I have subscribed to your channel since yesterday. I found your channel because I was looking for information about "earth leakage" from a hybrid inverter. Watching a few videos I realized I had forgotten to bond the earth and neutral, now my leakage is gone. Sincerely, Thank you.
Good point.
Great and simplified information, thank you Roland!
Thanks Roland, a lot of common sense, it would be good if inverter suppliers were mandated to supply a grounding/bonding philosophy for all territories they sell too, with less than complicated instructions.
Good observation. But who? Chinese?
Thanks Roland for this very informative video!!
Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment.
Thanks a very well explained and informative video, I was always wondering if the earth stud on my invertor and the earth pin were connected, I haven't done this as I did not know if I would cause damage to the invertor. At the moment nothing is bonded to any earth. I have a off grid setup with solar panels charging battery's and no mains available.
Thanks Roland, very interesting, I'll surely ask you more about this in SLS!
jes
Thanks for your instruction...good luck
BRAVO, your chanel is great, perfect.
Thank you sir!
Excellent thanks!!
Thank you for a very informative video on grounding. I have an axpert(chinese) inverter about to be installed. I was worried about bonding neutral to earth in fear of damaging the inverter. I have no idea what is inside the inverter, only know it does not have the heavy transformer used in my apc ups. I would love to know what the output section of the inverter looks like, if it still has a transformer, but high frequency and filtered somehow for 50hz? Any idea where one can find the electronic schematic diagram of the axpert will be appreciated.
That's basically a similar inverter as I have. They go under many brands. It is a so called High Frequency inverter. The sine wave is created by fast switching of Mosfets and just minimal smoothing by inductors and capacitors. Thats why there are no heavy transformers inside the unit. You can watch my repair video of my Must HS inverter. Then you will see how those inverters look from inside.
I greet you with respect, I have the following situation, I am connected to the hybrid inverter and with the AC from the provider, but at the AC output from the inverter I have voltage on N & L as well, it is ok if I connect the Neutral directly to the ground, before to enter the main box? can Neutral-To-Ground Bounding be done at the AC output from the inverter?
Thank you
Hi Roland.
My home power system is off grid, but with mains backup with 2* paralleled hybrid inverters.
i have measured my grid to load AC earth loop impedance (ZS) tests , they are really low at around 0.6 ohms so that's great !
However, as i am using the inverters "signal island mode" output when the mains is disconnected and the battery supplies the power ... a dry contact provided on the inverter allows me to switch and energise ( via a 1 amp fused spur ) a contactor / relay to provide my "off grid" neutral to earth bond at the inverters ac output, This function is automatic !
My double-pole transfer switch has now disconnected my grid / mains phase (line/live ) and NEUTRAL.
So now my domestic earth will not become referenced to the inverters neutral and form the loop required to trip my RCD / RCBO.
Therefore my inverter is now my source of ac supply and their neutral and earth conductors are joined at this source via the closed relay / contactor.
RCBO's downstream of this output supply my critical loads and operate perfectly in fault test conditions !
Once my grid / mains is resumed ( double pole transfer switch closes on grid side) the contactor opens, releasing my inverters NE bond, and prevents the upstream household RCD from prematurely tripping.
It works a treat but my DC 48 volt LifePo4 battery array, metal enclosures and solar has its own earthing requirements ... should i keep the DC earth separate to the AC earth ? ( as i do at the moment)
I have all DC components connected via a 10mm CPC/Earth conductor to a set of 3 ground rods in the back garden buried 5 feet into the earth.
I am trying to understand how to provide personal and equipment protection via my existing DC earth arrangements even though my battery is pos and neg fused , has 125 amp MCB disconnect and has insulated polarity separation.
Even my solar output is fused, has Surge protective devices and Dc mcbs...
I m not sure whether my battery grounding is achieving anything ...
Your thoughts and guidance would be much valued.
Si
Hi. Your DC Earth is primarily equipment grounding in case of surges caused by lightning and equipment enclosure grounding. As the DC side is an isolated system as long all is well, that equipment grounding will act as a "first fault reference". In the case of any pole shorting to ground, that pole will be "reference zero". So it doesn't really matter if the plus or minus pole contacts ground through a fault, a human will always touch ground potential if he touches the lets say the battery case. I would definately keep AC earthing and DC earthing seperated if it is already. As per your description, you are running a well designed system and you have put a lot of thoughts in earthing/grounding.
I'm needing to put together the same kinda set up you are talking about for my hybrid inverter.
My growatt hybrid inverter has the neutral to ground bonded at its output, measurable by voltage and continuity, I haven't checked what happens when I connect grid to its input without ground yet
Finally a video which explains it well, thank you! Although I did not have such a complicated set-up, I understood what was missing and why my EV charger reported a grounding error. I have a 3 phase 230V TN-S input to the house in CH, bond right at the entry before the panel. I have a Chinese all-in-one charger-inverter which either provides power to the house from solar, batteries or grid. It switches automatically depending on the settings (no external switch). Its Inputs are like yours. I realised that when it's in by-pass all is well (0V between N and P) but when it switched to solar/battery, the L and N became floating. After watching this video, I was brave and attached the bond in the inverter itself by adding a wire from P (input) to N (output). I this ok or should I bond in the panel right before the output from the Inverter goes to the distribution block?
PS: The rusty bars in the panel on the street look a bit frightening - like a fire in the making.
hi. thanks for the comment. there is nothing wrong to bond directly at the inverter in your grounding system.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Adding a wire from P (input Phase) to N (output) direct at the inverter (as Michaelneuweller will do) is OK? I thought only N (output) must be connected to the Ground(rod).
@@topeye4202 I do not understand why Michael is bonding the Phase input with the Neutral output, but definitely do not bond that configuration to Ground as well :)
What he is doing is essentially pull the floating Neutral of the Isolated inverter output to 230V, while his inverter phase will go to 0V. This doesn't make sense as he just should have pulled the inverter Neutral to 0V by the use of Ground.
In his current configuration there is a good chance of blowing up some equipment some time...
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore I think or hope Michael ment with "P" PE
Hi Roland,
In a scenario of a completely off-grid home where AC is provided by only the inverter to a main load center, grounding only the lug on the inverter chassis to an earth rod will still result in open ground circuits. However, in addition by bonding the N-G in the load center, it will solve the problem correct?
Yes, that is correct. That case is shown in my video about how to ground a simple off-grid system
Thank you!
Thanks for the info
Beautiful wiring at the pole! 03:05
I'll pass the compliments to the utility guys :)
Excellent thank you
Is it ok to connect the neutral bonded earth of the inverter to the same earthing rod of the grid power supply?
Yes
Hello! I have a off grid invertor , if i conect to ac socket of the house wich have PE the invertor is grounded? Can i put the SPD ground to the Pe of the house?
you want to feed into your installation via a socket? the shell of your inverter is only grounded that way, but there is no neutral to ground bond that way. you need to use a panel to safely feed in anyways. SPD you can connect to house PE, no problem...
I have a PV system(Grounded) to charge batteries, and run off-grid with an 24v 3000watt inverter which has high output L, N, G screws, I have a 8ft ground Rod in the ground outside ...can I just run L to L , N to N and G to G (Socket/Outlet) and connect the ground to the Ground Rod outside outside?
I ask because the inverter I have says do not connect Ground to neutral.
Hi, yes. Of course you can connect PE from inverter to your rod. In that case your grounding acts only as a Protective grounding, and would pull down high voltages from your inverter housing in case a L-PE fault would occur. The maximum allowed voltage during a fault condition on any by PE protected part is 65V, and is dependent on the impedance of the ground rod. But there would be no mechanism which would stop the inverter to continue producing power if it doesn't have internal fault current detection.
If I short my neutral to ground in my E panel would it make any problems. Always wonder about the neutral be a communications technician. I have a earth down at my shed. I have not bonded my earth and neutral in my shed. But it is connected to my main input 240 on another earth.
Technically N and G are twins. But if you are living in the RCD world and short N and G after the RCD or GFCI, those devices would trip as they will identify the current which is missing via the G line. Combining N and G doesn't create an imminent danger. It would just nullify certain safety loops we are building by separating those two lines.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you.
Hi Roland, please give me some advice about grounding the photovoltaic installation. My entire Off grid 8KW system is totally separate from the main system. We have made a separate dedicated grounding installation for this system + dedicated sockets for vital consumers. Question: Do I connect the inverter and solar panels + battery bank together to this ground? My doubt is about the inverter- I don't know if it should be connected to the main grounding system? Thanks, gratings from Romania,
Hi Felix. Yes, if you provided a separate earthing installation already, just connect all parts to that grounding. Solar Panel Frames (no DC power line directly), Surge Protection Devices (for power lines), Battery Enclosure (no DC power lines), Inverter Chassis and PE, dedicated Sockets PE and Neutral to Ground Bond (if not provided internally by the inverter).
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you, Roland, from this moment I am your subscriber.
If there are two Neutral-Ground bonds as shown in the video, current will flow over the ground wire between the two bond points. At least in the US, this is considered a problem.
Hi, yeah. In my power room it is a bit tricky to explain. But in that case it is actually the combined PEN conductor just going 2 parallel paths to 2 different panels (which could as well be just one bigger) and there the bond is done to the same point of earthing. So comes from same point and goes to same point, just 2 wires in the same room. And the inverter borrowing that link for the fault return path...yes, very important to check the individual situation and only possible like that in the TN setup. That's why I now already have like 7 videos on my channel, one building up on the other, to get a clearer picture of a quite complex topic :)
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore up
I live in an upstairs building in which the power is routed from a ground floor distribution box's MCB to a small distribution box in the upper floor using 3 wires to carry L, N and E. If I were to setup my off grid inverter ( non hybrid) for upstairs by bonding the output N and ground, and to connect this to the grounding rod, can I simply connect to the E wire coming from the downstairs' distribution box ?
It will be ok, as long your system which is powered by the off-grid inverter is not otherwise connected to N and L of the grid. So keep everything nicely separated, just use the supplied E as a common Earth. Your inverter doesn't have an AC input, right? Better not to use if it has...
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Yes. My off-grid inverter doesn't have any AC inputs. If I were to use a hybrid inverter with AC inputs, will it cause issues as I'm getting the grid power after the RCD of the ground floor distribution box?
@@gayanx86 yes, any RCD before the inverter would trip when you bond N-E. So your bypass AC would have to come from a very early point of distribution, before any RCD of the house
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you so much.
Hi my question is if I only have off grid system how do i connect my earth rod to the consumer box can i connect the neutral from the inverter to earth bar in the consumer box
Hi. Yes. Connect your rod to the earth bar in the consumer box and make a bonding connection from earth bar to inverter Neutral. It is advisable to use an RCD as the first device in the consumer box. So, make the connection as shown in my video about off-grid system bonding and earthing. Thanks
Thanks the video. But my invertor( pure sine invertor) does not have any mark that should be ground .
Is it possible to solder a wire on PCB of the invertor and any minus pole on PCB ( e.g. from electrolyt capacitor) will serve as ground ?
hi. please do not manipulate anything on the inside of the inverter! there is no ground marking on your inverter, because inverters do not provide ground. an inverter only provides L and N. G or PE comes from outside. in some cases it may only be connected to the invertor case. the PCB doesn't need ground. But our electric installation needs ground and a return path to the inverter. thats why we bond G and N on the outside of the inverter...
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you for your reply. Is it good enough if I connect groung to the metal case of the invertor?
@@ladbla1752 yes. that is the correct place. the inverter case is then part of the equipment grounding. just bond your inverter N to the outside ground at your panel and all is well.
You really helped me to have a better understanding about this issue now. Under my meter here in the Philippines only the metal post is grounded, but no connection/ bonding from Neutral to Ground whatsoever. My AC output is floating and I will do proper grounding and bonding asap.
Hi, yes, in the Philippines they are using 2 systems for grounding arrangement. "Line to Ground (=TN-C)" and "Line to Neutral (=TT, or IT in a way)". So when you are in the "Line to Neutral" supply, you would be not allowed to make a permanent N-G bond at your inverter as you would actually change the grounding situation for everyone who is connected to the same transformer! So if you have a hybrid system, please make sure that you only bond while the inverter is in off-grid mode. Take care!
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Just seen that my inverter has no Dry contact. So will study more on how to do it the right way here.
Hallo Roland, my Battery Bank was in floating mode and my JK BMS had short interrupts with error message Protection (CPUAUX anomaly). After connecting the Batt - to my Ground Terminal everything looks ok now.
Charging with PV and Utility Voltage of in SBU Mode was working ok, but when I switch over to USB I get same error message. So I have made connection from the ground to the Neutral. However the Utility and the AC output Neutral are all connected. Maybe I have to separate them. so Utility and AC out are devided. It's not so easy to fully understand it.
@@gerdbeutler3728 yes. my video about "All in One inverters in TT-earthing system" might give you a few clues...
In my country we use TT earthing system.
We are not you to linking our ground to neutral. Is this linking ok for a TT earthing system?
Well, you will have to bond in any earthing system used, but you will have to follow the rules of your country to properly isolate from grid if you have a hybrid system. Without bonding, your N and L output will float as you saw. If you are off-grid, the earthing system doesn't really matter, you just bond at the feed-in panel. But you should definitly consult with an local electrician if you are mixing different sources of generation.
My property is TN-CS earthing system. TN-C(S) is the easier system, as N-G is bonded throughout the system anyways already. TT is requiring some sort of isolation. Maybe the inverter to use an own Earthing rod and to bond G-N at the inverter. then go into your supply via transfer switch as alternative to the grid input. Best to consult a local professional for assistance.
Hey
What is the size of cable you use from DB Box to wire your AUTO CHANGE OVER SWITCH
there its only 2.5mm2 wire as the circuits behind are just a few essential loads. you need to select wire size according to your situation.
iim getting that too 37 vdc at ground case on one but the other same has 0 vdc
not connected but 2 separate
Thanks Roland, Sawadee krub. This is the subject not many people talk about or really aware of. Here, I have a scenario to ask you and hope you can share some advice. If I want to install an off grid hybrid inverter (230Vac, 48Vdc batt bank) just like yours but in an RV (24Vdc starting battery) and also an isolated 48Vdc to 12Vdc (360W) converter for 12V loads. Grounding everything; there will be solar panel, AC inverter, not sure for 48Vdc bank and 12Vdc converter. What would be your suggestion in this situation ? My initial thought is to leave all these ungrounded except the AC outlets in the RV which still have ground prong but equal to open ground when AC shore power is not fed. Your advice is appreciated.
Hi, the DC side of nverters and converters, solar panels, etc is always kept isolated. never connect one of the DC power wires to Earth anywhere, other then installing a Surge Protection Device SPD. When we talk about Grounding or Earthing, it is about AC output and Equipment housing. So yes, it will only affect your AC outlets. When you connect a RV to shore power, make sure to use a 3 pole transfer switch to completly switch over all 3 wires L, N and PE when changing between your system and shore power. I wouldnt use the AC in of a hybrid inverter to connect to shore power, as you might not know what sort of earthing system is used. Better to treat your own PV and inverter side as off-grid, and shore power as backup. For your own earthing, you might just dig in a copper rod into the soil, so that you can later remove it again.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thanks Roland. You really have the point, especially the 3 poles transfer switch which I haven’t thought of. Since there might be an issue of quality of N-G bonding from shore power, do you think it might be OK if I just ignore ground on the AC side as well on the RV. This way, do you think it might minimize risk of lightning surge and any ground loop voltage ? I understand Japanese system doesn’t have ground wire either. Wish to hear from you again.
@@teerawattang5071 Grounding is for lightning protection, as if you run a isolated system, a nearby lightning strike can induce high voltage in your system and fry all your equipment. The leakage protection by earthing and using of RCDs is just an extra benefit of grounding...
i want to install ac spd after earthing nutrual bounding in main db box can i install ac spd after bounding and took earthing wire from grounding wire and insert in ac spd earthing point is it okay ? will ac spd will work and ground extra spikes/extra volts from grid (live/natural ) if we do natural and grounding bounding at main db box?
Hi. yes, you can install AC SPDs near of the N-G bond as well, but it will mostly remove spikes from the Live wire only.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMorethnx for reply bro
so it means ac spd grounding wire we will connect to nutural ground main db box bounding wire directly ?
@@techchat370 yes. You connect the Ground terminal of the SPD to the main Grounding terminal bar inside your main DB. From there you will hopefully have a connection to any sort of grounding rod, etc which will lead the spike to physical ground
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore yes dear bro i have done earhing/grounding by my self with 5 feet copper road with 9 feet depth and used 10mm bare copper wire in it and from it 6mm pure copper wire from it to my main db box and attached with nutural bus bar...
Thnx for valued propmt reply
Love n respect from pakistan to share knowledge with others
Hi. I don't know if you addressed this but I read that you can link the mains and inverter neutrals and only switch the live/phases using the transfer switch. What do you think about this?
it really depends in wich sort of earthing system you are living. my video about practical guidance is trying to show that. i wouldn do that in a TT arrangement as fault currents from all your neighbors will flow over your link
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore ok thanks I just watched your video on practical guidance. I don't think I'll be running into any problems as we use a TNCS system in my country. The neutral and earth are bonded at the meter box in every house.
@@kint5ugee yes, thats how i have it here in Thailand as well.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore ok great! thanks 😊
Great video. I'm in the US so 110vac/60 cycles. I am the proud owner of a useless inverter for connection to building wiring! Although it has unbonded neutral-ground (yay) it produces half the voltage on the cold prong, like yours. Do you or anyone here have any definitive experience with portable 2000w or so inverters that are OK to connect to home wiring (via a transfer switch) and has the floating neutral-ground as well as ALL the AC on the hot receptacle of the AC outlets...Thx...
Thank you so much for this video! I think it was exactly what I was looking for.
So, to be clear...
I should leave the unbonded inverter unbonded (currently, the receptical ground is simply connected to the inverter chassis) where it measures 60v hot and 60v neutral, roughly.
I then, run the hardwired terminal block to the distribution panel in my rv. I will double check, of course, but assuming my panel is bonded, I should then read 120v hot, 0v neutral, and still 120v hot to neutral.
This correct?
If there is a bod in your panel, you will read 0 and 120v, yes. But is the RV physically grounded by a rod or metal spear when parked?
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore not at this time, but I can.
@@user-mt4zr5kp7h if you have GFCIs installed somewhere in the RV, you should ground the panel physically. Then all is right. So, important is grounding and bonding.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore thank you Roland. Appreciate the help. ☺
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore looks like this was all moot. Inverter has 118v across hot and neutral, but under any kind of load, it goes into overload. Phone charger works on it, but toaster kills it.
This is a new one for me. Any ideas? There's nothing visibly wrong on the boards that I can see and all mossfets look intact, with no signs of having blown. Anything typical that happens?
There is an electrical return to the batteries and the filter when connected to the power panels. My device is opti, the system 24, which accepts filters from the panels 500 v, and returns electricity to the panels. Please help
I don't know if i understand right. You have DC current returning from battery to panels during night time?
you can use a string diode. it will prevent current return to the panels. check my video about it. it works as well with one string only...
I have questions - have done N to E binding but when inverter goes to bypass mode my home main RCCB tripped ,why is that happening also I'm using one grounding rod don't have separate ground rod. And I am using two RCCB one for main supply one for inverter out. Could you please advise
(Sorry about my English)
Do you feed in behind a RCD? Because if you do, you add energy into your N-line via the inverter which is seen as energy imbalance by the RCD
Did you watch this video about practical connection in different earthing systems? Maybe the answer is found there... th-cam.com/video/H5Pt5i5gG2I/w-d-xo.html
When you install one of the Off-Grid Hybrids, never get the AC for the AC-In from a load panel breaker behind a RCD. Because otherwise you are creating a N-E bond behind a RCD. That will cause the RCD to trip. Use a 2-pole (overcurrent) Breaker before the main RCD to get that Ac from there.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore yes think this is the issue I have.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore above video is very helpful and found my answer
can you do the test when grid is disconnected. test between ground and neutral. if not zero, something is wrong
now Ground and Neutral is bonded inside the panel behind the inverter output. It must be zero
All makes perfect sense, thank you.
I have a 28kw inverter (huawei sun200-28ktl) with no requirement for the neutral wire to be connected in the ac outlet plug. Just 3 phases, and protected earth. So I assume everything will still work if all earths are connected, through to neutral in the distribution board.
Roland , im fellow german canadian here sierra leone.
I have same as you on you red machine 230 v and 38 vdc ground . im now getting fault 5 overcurrent . why after 3 yrs all good now? i think one of 4 12 v batteries may be dead fully off grid. the locals dont have idea on correct ways. im grounded at the breaker box to ground rod 5 feet away. two inverters hybrid one 24 vdc system wind solar own controller other 48 5kva . both using same solar array. 24 v system 230 v and 0 vdc ground and box. 48 kva 38 vdc ground and the fault 5 now over current.
Fault code.
Battery overcurrent hardware protection
Hi. Its not possible for me to tell you what is causing the fault. But i do not think it is grounding related. I think it is a problem with the inverter. Sorry. Did you get in touch with the manufacturer on what could cause the Fault code even if there is no overcurrent? I would open it up, clean it and look if there are obvious issues like burned out components, blown out caps, etc
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore its a high voltage hybrid. SRNE 5kw its only the static electricity i found from others on yt showing grounding and found same . they found its the machine genereating its own static. no biggie. dont bond to ground rather just bond the panel to ground on offgrid euro type 230 v ac out unit im in jungle with
Nice.. thanks.. I’m in Phillipines, single phase, 240v, 60hz. Using a Deye inverter. My main breaker panel, which seems older style than yours, with inputs from grid at the top, with big 50mm wires coming in, has a 150amp breaker on it. There is a discrepancy here between us, are those L1 and L2? Or L and N? FYI there is no neutral bar that I can see, nor a Neutral bar either. So, it’s a toss up. Oh and this house is 20 years old. What do you think?
Phillipines has L and N, not a split phase, right? you can use a phase tester to see which of your 2 wires is the hot one.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore yeah, I am not sure , but, I've heard people say "240v supply to neutral", does that mean that one of those 50mm wires is L (supply) and the other is N? I've tested the voltage between the two black lines, and it's 220, then, when I touch one of the black wires to the casing or the box, it shows 110. When I do a continuity test between either line to either side of the breakers, it beeps. FYI, it's an american style, 1" black breaker type. what else can I check? Oh, and I don't have light up line tester I don't think. but, I do have amp and v meter.
@@gjsxnobody7534 to be sure, we are only speaking now about your grid supply. According the world map for electricity Philippine's is using 220V/60Hz L-N.
You are getting your supply via 2 big black wires. One is L and one is N. You can only find out which one is which by using a phase tester like the screw drivers with light, etc. A multimeter can only tell you which is which if you measure the wires towards a true point of ground like the ground pin of your electrical outlets which must be connected to a earthing bar and rod if you live in a TT-earthing system or must be connected to a earthing bar whoch is bonded to the N in a TN-C-S earthing system.
Do you know how or even if your house is grounded/earthed?
Measuring 110V against a point of ground on each wire would indicate a US style split phase. There each of the wires would make a phase tester light up.
You can ask your power provider what your supply is.
If you want, you can send me a photo of your open breaker box to my e-mail address shown in the channel description. Its much easier to talk about something and give advice about it if looking at a picture of the actual situation...
Ok. Emailed you with pics and video
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMorePhilippines do not use an earth, most alliances give you a minor tickle
Isnt it best to do the neutral earth connection at the inverter and not in the distribution board?
If your inverter is far away from the Distribution then you have to make a bond there, but if they are separated just by a few meters of wire then it is still better to do it inside a panel as the terminals there are much more solid and your earthing source will usually arrive there. Inverters don't always have good connectors...
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thanks
In the south african code of practise it states that the earth and neutral shall be bonded at the point of supply ie at the transformer, generator or inverter. Only bonding in the db is allowed if there is a elevated voltage between earth and neutral
@@davidmchattie sounds very reasonable to me. Code interpretation still gives a bit of room. An inverter mounted right next to a distribution panel would in my opinion qualify as "point of supply". So, I would still opt for a bond inside the panel :) But of course, that's up to you.
Hallo Roland , I measure 120 V between earth and L on my Epever UP3000-M6322 and 120 V again between earth and N. What is the case here? Gruesse aus Griechenland .
Hello Kostas, this is because there is no Neutral to Ground bond on that inverter. There are several comments on that inverter below my " simple Off-Grid system" video. Are you using this in a off grid application or anything else?
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMoreFirst thanks for replying. I using this in a off grid application and to charge the batteries from the grid but I do not use it in bypass to supply my consumers.
Aber auch bei einer Bypassfunktion wenn es am Netz angeschlossen ist , ist nur L und N angeschlossen bei AC In . Keine PE Anschlussklemme bei AC In vorhanden .
@@kostaschatzi6391 eine Verbindung ders Neutralleiters mit Erdung korrigiert die Ausgangsspannung des Wechselrichters und ermöglicht dann auch Schutzerdung durch einen RCD.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Danke für die Antwort. Ich habe leider noch mehr Fragen zu dem Thema Erdung . 1) Die Erdung die von den Panelen kommt und auf die Erdungstange geht, kann die vorher zur Combinerbox zum SPD gehen oder müssen die getrennt zu Erdungstange gehen? Dies zu dem Erdungen draußen. 2) Drinnen sind der Inverter und noch ein SPD zu erden . Kann ich die verbinden und gemeinsam auf die gleiche Erdungstange führen oder wie muss das gemacht werden?
Hi, I learn a lot from your channel and I like to ask some questions.
I stay in Malaysia and I have a offgrid hybrid inverter Growatt SPF 5000ES which is by default already have AC output neutral bond with ground. (I know this is because I use the multi meter to touch the AC out Neutral and the Ground has a beep sound)
My question is after I used the inverter for 2 weeks, my house RCCB start tripping. Sometimes when I on the air-cond or just a computer.
My AC in is direct from the Grid -> 40A MCB -> AC In -> Inverter -> AC out -> MCB 40A -> RCCB -> Load center distribution box.
I have only one ground rod and everything in my house are connected to this ground rod (including AC SPD, DC SPD, solar panel grounding, Inverter grounding, ...)
I found a way to remove the Inverter's AC Out Neutral and Ground bonding, it stop the RCCB tripping but now the AC Out Neutral have around 90V in it which is very dangerous for my home.
Please let me know what I did wrong to my system? I really don't know what else I can do...
Thanks
Hi. Do you remember in which inverter state the RCD is tripping? Is it when the inverter is in off-grid mode powered by the PV or is it when it is on-grid switched in bypass mode? Or doesn't it matter...
If you remove grid power from your AC-In by switching off the first MCB while you are off-grid and measure the Neutral from the grid towards your Rod Earth, which voltage would that show?
Hi...just like to update my case here.... I think I found out what is the issue. I check again my wire connection and find out I reverse connect one of my RCCB (Live and Neutral reversed), I have 2 RCCB in total.... That is why my house keep tripping... I am now correct the reverse and put back the screw for Neutral and Grounding bond in the Growatt inverter and also I have removed the jumper wire.. now after 1 day nothing is trip in my house. Sorry for my stupid mistake ... this is just a false alarm... :P
@@tailowfatt1146 good to hear!
Wow, subbed :)
I amm confused about your setup but since i just finished my solar panels construction and going further with electrical setup i am sure i have a question for you :)
Ma inverter is single phase hybrid Deye SUN 6-K with two LFP bank in paralell (each 100 ah 5 kwh). My house installation ( 45 year old) is neutral to ground bonded. I dont have ground bus bar in house distribution box. I have information that even in transformer station, some 250 meters away from my house, neutral is grounded to protective earth. Now, i even have acces to separate copper ground wire which lead from electra main distribution box for my neighborhood where my electra meter for my house is also connected. So i was thinking to take that copper wire and to connect it for grounding all my equipment and "ac in" on my inverter (grid output of inverter but not backup output as per Deye manual). I am even thinking to add grounding rod on my parking lot for dc side and connect this to that copper wire also. I can check potential tomorrow. Whats your thoughts on this?
Thanx mate
Yes. Sounds like you have a TN-S supply. You can use that PE throughout your installation for AC-side grounding, Equipment grounding, Panel frames and metal mount, etc... just what do you mean when you say DC-side grounding? Do not bond any of the DC power lines to the PE.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you for your fast reply Sir. Roland W.
Oh no no no. I didnt mean to say i will ground dc line from panels to PE. I just meant that i will ground my panel frames and metal construction where panels are fastened to same PE line where i will ground my ac side!
What is TN-S supply? Some abbreviations are still unknown to me unfortunately :(
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Ahh i see. TerraNeutral-Separate ;)
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Its rainy today but i will check if weather allow what i have here when measure point of my house Live to point of that copper wire on my parking lot. I should get 230 volts, right? If that is the case than i am good?
@@zoxwolf2133 copper wire on parking lot is a known earthing wire? Then you should read 230V, yes :)
Hello Roland, I have a mixture of 24v inverters, 3000 up to 5000w, I am trying to use plug and play so as to be legal, I have plug in RCB, most of the inverters are earthed internally to the socket 1 is not earthed at all, I have a ground rod especially for them, and have earthed each inverter, the breakers do trip if I push the test buton, when testing it shows no earth, what can I do here without having wired outlets and RCB? I need to stay plug and play, off grid, Australia uses PME, our power cords are earthed
Hi, testing an RCD via its test button unfortunately doesn't say anything about correct earthing, it is only an internal device test using its internal L and N line. You need to open the unearthed inverter and bond the N with PE at the socket. Then your plug in RCD should work correctly if externally tested with a socket tester for example.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore I really appreciate your reply, I'll give it a go, keep up your videos, I only just found you
Thank you Roland, the inverter internal neutral earth bonding worked fine, I did 7 inverters in total
Hello Roland, I have a curly one for you, my friend has a caravan park, in Australia, there is I think around 25 to 30 power domes with 4 outlets in each, earthed back to the sub panel, the power company did an earth resistance test and they said it was too high, it was verbal only 5 ohms, the allowance is 0.5 ohms, the main board is earth bonded, the cables from the main board are 35mm while the earth is only 10 mm, the sub panel is also bonded, every electrician in the past have different views, the bond has been in and out several times, I don't see an earth stake at the sub panel, and at this stage can't see if the main board and sub board are directly earthed.
What's your thought here Roland?
@@Brian-ausie what is the distance from main to sub panel and sub panel to power domes? Are all domes connected to the same sub panel? what is the cable core diameter from sub to domes?
I'm a bit confused why you bonded earth and neutral in the load centre. Wouldn't that mean that the earth wire would be carrying current?
That is exactly what bonds are for. They shall carry current... but only in fault conditions! Without a N-G bonding wire, fault current cannot safely return to the inverter, which would mean that in worst case a human body could become the bridge if there is a ground fault present in the system. A later video is actually showing exactly about how much current is really flowing ;)
Sorry I thought you had 2 neutral/earth bonds. I'm designing a backup system that uses a small inverter to switch only the lighting circuit when the power goes out and I'm wondering, is it safe to have both the inverter and grid earth wires connected considering I will bond the inverter's neutral to earth? Wouldnt a ground fault in the circuitry potentially send the grid's power to the inverter?
@@kint5ugee at small backup systems I wouldn't bother to much with earthing. Just run it as an isolated system. The grid cannot send power trough your inverter active circuit over the earth wire when only ground is shared. Currents always go to their origin. How would the inverter attract fault current from a transformer via PE or vice versa? Electricity needs a closed loop to flow and earth and neutral are same potential in most types of grid as they are bonded at the transformer. Yes, never ever bring inverter phase and grid phase together, unless using a grid-tied inverter :)
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore "currents always go to their origin" thank you so much! I had this misconception that current would just go to any neutral which is stupid haha. I'm still learning. And yes it's only a small backup system and all loads connected will be insulated or out of reach (light bulbs, TV and phone chargers) thanks a lot for clearing that up for me!
Hey Roland
So I am currently in the process of helping an elderly gentleman to connect a solar system. Him and his wife live on a farm that has no power/utility connection to grid. They have been purely utilizing a 3kw diesel generator as their power source.
My plan is to connect the PV panels to the inverter but then for the AC input I want to connect the Diesel generator. The AC output on the inverter will obviously supply the whole house. Its not a big inverter 5kw but it should be more than enough for them. They don't have big loads. So I will only have 1 DB box which would have the AC breakers, groundbars etc. as well as the dc side of the inverter( Battery, & PV).
My Question to you: I need to know where I should bond and where I should place the ground rod. I have a little bit electrical background. But grounding seems to be a point of confusion for many. I believe bonding should be done at 1 place only. So I will test to make sure that there is no bond on Generator, AC Input & AC output. then I believe I should Connect all of these three connection points's grounds together and have the bond to neutral only at 1 place. I will make this bond in the DB box then. Ultimately this DB box will have a breaker for AC out going into the home with the home's own distribution board and with its ELCB.
Any help would greatly be appreciated! I am struggling to find this answer
Hi. Yes, just create one N-G bond at the load center. It will serve the inverter and generator, whichever is feeding into the house at that time.
The SPD you can ground either to the existing AC grounding bar/rod if the panels are close to the inverter, or do it right at the array with a separate pin if the array is a distance away from the rest of the installation.
The idea is to divert induced surges to ground on the shortest available path.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Okay so just to be clear- in my case the Generator will no longer be used to feed the house directly. It will only be connected to the Inverter AC Input. In my logical mind I would think that we now actually perhaps have to bond by the generator going into the AC input of the inverter as this is a source different from Inverter AC output. And then the AC output of the inverter needs to be bonded as this AC output of the inverter is isolated from the AC input of the inverter? This was just really confusing to me
@@franchosisit depends what kind of inverter you use. if the inverter switches the generator directly trhough the AC-in to AC-out, then the generator will bond automatically in the load center. but if the AC-In is only serving an internal battery charger, then you could as well ground/bond the generator. But I would just keep that generator-ACin as isolated circuit...
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore This is a Hybrid inverter, so It has the ability to take the battery, PV and AC in(Generator) and blend to put it onto the AC output.. So perhaps I would assume if we only bond in on the AC output side then it should automatically make the generator part of the same bond as on the AC output.. Actually I saw the physical inverterthere is only 1 Earth terminal in the middle of the two AC circuits on either side.. So there is a LN E LN
@@franchosis yes. just make one bond at the AC out/load panel. that is the safest option
I wish I could find a video that explains how to connect your inverter when the grid goes down and there's no gird power for months, years, or maybe never. Forget about all these fancy, crazy expensive interconnected gizmos.
an all in one inverter like i am using there is nothing else like any other simple off-grid inverter. just look my video from my playlist on how to ground and bond an inverter in a simple off-grid system.
You are lucky has a 3ph in Thailand 😊 I live in Bali in small vilage, we Are here happy for 1ph😂. Now i want make off-grid PV and get own electricity. I want later connect the Growatt Inv. directly to the house 220V socket, and turn off the main MCB from company. This home wires is already grounded. ita enougth?
Hi. 1ph is enough for a house :) Yes, if you have grounding throughout the building, then you can use it for the off-grid inverter as well. Especially if you disconnect from mains anyways. Just make sure that you disconnect both L and N by a MCB or double pole transfer switch. Happy energy independence ;)
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Ok thank you for info :) Im also a "farang", Bule 😂 but in Bali, already 10years . Has a local wife And childs here. I decise move to off-grid because last times was big Windy here and our area was one week without electricity. Crazy . For the emergency we use the Gas silent generator, but Its No way fór Long therm. I hope YT videos can help me build this systém 😂. Our daily kW spend i around 6Kw, so i Will just make a simple 48V systém. For the easy Future extend For more Kwp. For now i just buy Growatt 6000es plus, 1x Huawei LiFePo4 48v 100ah battery And 4x Longi 555Wp mono panels. I want upgradable setup, because later i want move to EV scooters and small Wuling EV car. Just for 100% Freedom from this crasy SW Asians governants 😂😂😂
@@maxbiagi3091 sounds great. I think what you will need more right away are at least 2 more pv-panels ;)
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore You mean for later upgrade complete 6 panels? I was thinking in future buy another 4 pcs. So 8 x555Wp complete. I will testing step by step. How much Will be ideál. We Are +- 1000m above sea level, so sometime 50% of the day here Is cloudy or rainy.
@@maxbiagi3091 8 for later is good, I just mean that with 4 now you will probably not charge your battery much as 2000Wp will only output around 1300W and that you will use up right away. With 6 now, you at least have a chance to store a bit power for the night too...
Wher to get ground in motorhome for my power inverter?
So i hawe conected 2 X 12V caycles 104 Ahm batterys to get 24 V 104 Ahm.
I hawe battery equalizer on them, the
24 V + / - ports from batterys are conected to: Battery Guard.
Battery Guard iz set to turn off sistem when batterys are 50% used.
So from Battery Guard i hawe output: 24V it's protected with 40A fuse.
Becose i Will use power inverter 24V to 230V 50Hz 1500W to power my aditional freezer. Freezer uses 85 W to work. That gives me 14 h of non stop power but becose freezer don't run 24/7 i Will hawe autonomy for at least 48 h before pluging the motorhome to camp electricety.
One thing that bothers me is wher to conect ground of power inverter ?
1.- metal part of motorhome ?
2.- negativ pole of motorhome electricety sistem ?
3.- battery negativ pole whic gives power to inverter ?
hi, you can get Ground only from planet earth :). If you stay at a camping place, you could get it from a power socket there, if you only connect the PE wire in the plug, and that you connect to your PE of inverter. Or you use your own grounding rod, which you bang into the soil at your place you camp, and connect to there.
OffGrid Wanabe commented: "Thanks for sharing yes a very misunderstood topic" ... sorry, your original comment disappeared somehow, thx
Here I am, being a Thai guy watching a video in English about Thailand electricity.
Welcome ;)
+
You are wrong, this inverter has N-G BONDING Inside,when no ac is present, NG is connected by relay inside
(Ground Fault)
The voltage difference between Neutral and Ground is too high.
The internal ground relay is activated but the voltage over the relay is too high. The relay might be damaged.
This when No AC present
Inverters with internal bonding relays are very rare. most inverters used for DIY either have no bonding or a fixed bond. You could have told which exact inverter you have so that people know who are looking for an inverter with built in relay.
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore
My inverter is voltronic, but these inverters are the same,you can open it and see
Sir, with due respect, why don't you show the diagram first and then explain it on actual machine. Thank you
Because that would only show an individual setup in an individual situation, which might not be suitable in your case. That's why this is just the first of a whole series of videos. You will find many diagrams at later times after you had the chance to get a bit of background knowledge on what the whole topic is about. Just follow the playlist. We creators do see the YT statistics and we know that most viewers are just jumping through the videos and do some cherry picking only watching maybe a fifth of the video. Starting with a diagram might not be a good idea when knowing that right after seeing it, most of the audience is turning off the device and leaving with a screwdriver in their hand ;)
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you very much Sir. I will be waiting for more in depth insights from your side. Also elobrate the grounding difference between transformer and transformerless inverters. Best Regards
@@mahmoodadnan1555 as I said, there are already about 15 videos in the playlist for inverter grounding and most of the topics are covered albeit maybe under a different title. How to ground transformer-less systems (PV systems without DC/AC isolation) are shown in the videos about "Basic Grounding and Surge Protection" and "Requirement of Type-B RDCs". It is actually not different to common practice in PV installation as typically the DC side (PV power lines + or -) will always be kept isolated from Ground if not otherwise required by the equipment manufacturer. The only device connecting a DC power line to ground is an SPD in case of a voltage surge during a nearby lightning strike.
I will probably upload another video about this in the near future. Regards
@@RolandW_DIYEnergyandMore Thank you Sir