Paul - took your advice and added a pair of REL subwoofers, you are right, the sound coming out of my speakers is deeper, fuller, richer, more alive when properly recorded music is played. Never going back. Thanks!
“Properly recorded” really makes me think of the radio gnome invisible trilogy by the band Gong. Recorded very well and the music itself knocks my socks off every time.
A belated thanks! I just recently started following you. I'm 67 and decided to put together a small low-end bookshelf system with a turntable for my small living area. I bought all new components, but I was still on the fence about a subwoofer. I had already figured out that all I needed was some bass help for my speakers, and have found an 8" 60W sub . The concept of the "missing octave" really sealed the deal, I hadn't previously considered what all was down there in the lower end, that I could be missing. So I ordered the subwoofer today. Thanks!
I've always been an advocate of left and right subwoofers for music like you said it just fills the whole bottom end and can make a modest size set of bookshelf speakers seem like they're a gigantic set of towers.
I ran a sub for years. When my old Velodyne's on-board amp gave out, I was reminded of just what the sub does for the over-all sound. When I replaced my sub I was told to “stop thinking of the sub as a speaker, but rather a pressure-generator”. It was at this point, when for the fist time, I really understood the function of a sub. When a sub is properly set it will pressurize the room creating an ideal medium for all the frequency above it. In other words, when the air-molecule are close together (high pressure) the higher waves move faster, cleaner and it becomes more accurate.
Even with Mozart string quartet recordings, a decent and properly set up subwoofer can allow you to "hear" the hall / space in which the performance was recorded in.
Yeah Im new to subwoofer and i listened The Boz Scaggs track 'thanks to you' as a test for my new sw and it is amazing! ...I tweaked the sub over time and it sounds like it's coming from the main floor standing speakers. Incredible. Thanks to you Paul! Paul Dublin Ireland.
Deepest (synth) bass note in "Thanks to You" is an A at 27.5 Hz (playing in the guitar solo), this is lower than a 5 strings bass can produce (B at 30.9 Hz). Excellent piece of music by the way ...
Back in 1980, when I was still 8 yo, older audiophiles talking about Mannheim Steamroller had me wondering back then if they too are a West German heavy metal band like Scorpions. 😄
Agree totally. Every Sub you add, that is adjusted right in level, phase and quality, destresses the entire sound upwarts even into the mid range, I'd say! Learned it by my own ears in a workshop.
A subwoofer takes out the hard work from your speakers allowing them to be more transient and responsive at what they do, rather than stretching and struggling to hit the lows, its sound reinforcement. Speakers are good at speaking and subwoofers are good at woofing, blending them perfectly is the hard part, but so worth the time.
I bought a sealed subwoofer after Paul's advise. I learned a lot about room modes (very bad room), and then I purchased the second one. After many hours of setup, I never hear the subs. Maybe subwoofers are like tweeters; one driver can make music (like small computer's speakers), but specialized speakers are better. I'm not looking for subterranean bass, just for better, adjustable and faster bass to complete faster woofers. Thank you Paul.
Subwoofer is a must in every system👌 Even my 12" floor speakers need a active sub to really shine in the low end. An active sub just brings wonders if it's integrated perfectly👌 And the "Thanks To You" track... Yes it goes DEEP...
That is very true what you said. Most people tune their subs for “excursion” of the woofer. You see that in car audio a lot. Excursion is not real bass. A sub tuned correctly will hit the bass notes only. It makes your speakers sound like they have enormous bass. Car audio subs can be fine tuned to do that also.
Feedback is a great word to use in audio. This guy offers some positive feedback and Paul offers his positive feedback and the whole thing is using negative feedback in your audio system to have control over the different aspects of it. Haha!
I'd had dual 10" subs in a previous setup environment..but those were sub par (pun intended). Following Paul's advice, I invested in quality dual 12" subs in my new setup. Hands down the best investment in Audio so far..makes my system sing, effortlessly. Mind you, it took a fair amount of time and patience to get the setup right, with subs properly integrated.
Makes a big difference. Got a big room , former church in my Holliday house. Opens up the sound and experience to another level. Not everybody fortunate to have suchlike big room. But when I added the subwoofers I reached another level, absolutely mind blowing, and added a equaliser to. Against everything I thought was right and pure... the super analytic sound became enraging and joyful.
My space doesn’t allow for two subs, but I bought one based on your recommendation. It made a bigger difference in my system than any other one component
i didnt have the space either. my music room was 12x12x9. with 2 tower speakers, 2 mono blocks & a rack of equip...there just wasnt room. so i took everything out of my music room, switched my bedroom furniture to the music room. put the stereo in my former bedroom which is 16x18x10...added 2 subs.... *_ahhh_*
I drove my self mad listening to advise about setting up subwoofer frquency and gain, and almost sold mine at one point but didn't, I found that no one lets on that they are like any speakers they just take a bloody long time to wear in, but boy when they do they are spot on like you say.
Hi Paul. I know you like REL subs. What is your opinion on using the dual woofer newer versions champs from earlier days like Miller &Kreissel (now MK Sound) for music if you have heard them.
Hi Paul I am running two Yamaha 120watt subs on my system it’s taken a while to get them balanced but now the bottom end is perfect and it’s your videos that convince me to bye them. Happy happy 🔊🔊😎
Thanks Paul for your advice, I bought a Wilson Benesch Square one, the mids and the highs are sweet but missing that bottom end. I bought a REL T91 Red and the whole system using my Class D Nuprime Power amp via High Level Input as you suggested is soooo mind blowing that is sounds like the whole band is in your front of you. Cheers from Taiwan.
Just added a second sub to my JBL Studio Series 5.1 setup, for a now 5.2 system. It really "smooths" things out. I can sit anywhere in the room and get the same rich effect. I guess two is better than one. :-)
Paul touches a bit on it near the end of this video, but there is a lot of ambient information in very low frequencies. A lot of hall ambience, especially in classical recordings, is missing without the preproduction of very low frequencies.
Following this particular advice, I got myself an old but mint Dali aw8 to support my eltax monitor 3s... Oh my Lord - this made a whole world of difference. And for almost no money at all - 90€ :D. Thanks Paul!
Me too, had ONE for a couple of years, always wanted two but stalled. Then the mfg upgraded and changed the model. That's when I panicked and bought the second older model before they were sold out. Awesome.
Hello Paul, I purchased (on "eBay"), a pair of "Osborn Titan Bookshelf Reference Monitor Speakers" I think Gentleman "Used to" own a Stereo shop in Nashville, TN... I was the second highest bidder (Highest bidder "Flaked Out")... This particular seller sent me a pair of speaker stands and "MIT" Speaker cables... "WOW"...These particular speakers sound "Fantastic" ! He has keep in-touch with me and told me that he has "Other" ("High-End" Stereo equipment in his garage since he closed his stereo shop ! I now (also), have purchased an "NAD 208 THX Amp"... I have yet to hook-up/connect this amp to my "NAD" T776 Receiver and the "NAD 208 THX" Amp ! I am looking forward to this day... I have asked him if he has "Sub-Woofer"? He told me that he does, but it is "Vintage" ?!? "12 inch, Dual-Voice Coil" that is kinda "Buried" in his garage...I can wait !!!
I’ll be honest and say that I am struggling to integrate my 2 rel S/510’s with my TAD me1’s. There isn’t much wiggle room for sub positioning though. They are inside the speaker at the the same angle. I seem to lose the midrange and sparkle of the tweeter when they are on. I hope it’s not down to positioning, or I am in trouble. I did suffer with horrid system feedback which I sorted with 2 rca cables from my dac to the lfe. I have the levels so as the subs are not that noticeable, ie within the additive range. It just doesn’t have that integrated sound ...... yet! Every A and B I do and minor adjustment on the levels, they sound better without. I am determined to make it work!!!!!!
@@donny303 You are correct. I still use my high level as intended. The hum I got wasn’t a ground loop hum. And I couldn’t chase the culprit down. This is a fix from the rel site. As long As I don’t use the black as a ground and use the rca from any spare output, being my lampizator, to the lfe and turn the lfe vol down, it acts as a ground. Grounding an arc amp on the 4 ohms tap was a funny way of going about it at the start and had me worried but that’s how arc do it. This was my get out of jail free card.
Hi Paul, thank you !!! Musician and old music electronics tech (Hammond Organ, Leslie, and keyboards, odd ball tube amp), gotta have those lows to be in the song. Thank you for the 80-90 Hrz cut-off frequency info !!! Besides the knowledge, theater finally sounds correct. One time, I played a low octive note off my Roland Juno 106 synth.... cracked the garage concrete. Hehe... anyways. I rarely comment, just wanted to say thank you. Have a great one !!!!!!!
Subs are so necessary but also so difficult to get right. The best way I know of to get subs dialed in is with DSP. Room modes can produce 30 db variations through the sub bass range. Using a mini dsp and REW changes everything.
I agree with Mr.Paul 100%, I use powered subs for 20 years, small sub can make small speakers to be big, sub push a lot of air and energy into music... Front ported are my choice, down-fire sub can e tricky to sett right and on the and subs are not - not directional, they need a good place in every room, so play around with sub.
My speakers are fairly large when it comes to standmount speakers, they have an 8 inch woofer and dual bass ports on the front. I've noticed that if you listen to a modern electronic song on them that the bass is audible but not thumping like it would be on earphones, but if you listen to an older song from lets say The Hollies, The Beatles or any of that type of music, the bass guitar notes will shake the room. I think that just goes to show that bass on modern songs is optimised to sound good on small speakers which drop out below 100Hz but bass on older songs is optimised to sound good on huge wooden boxes that resonate like hell, have massive cardboard woofers and will wake the dead on 10w from a 6v6 tube amp.
@@vinylrules4838 My name's Arlen, not Arlene, easy mistake to make! I never really like telling people what speakers I have, because you cannot judge the way the sound by the brand they're made by. They're Skytec 170.239 PA speakers and I bought them to use as PA speakers, but I listened to them one day and thought "these sound too good for what they are" and so I tried them in my HiFi (my previous speakers have been made by JBL, Mission, Advent and B&W so I do know what "good" HiFi speakers sound like) with my Pioneer A400 amp and I was genuinely blown away, I promise I couldn't believe my ears when they let me hear things I'd never heard before with any of the other speakers I've used. I put their sound down to the really complex crossover network inside, as the drivers are just generic cheap units (although the woofer does have a cast aluminium frame). One thing I admit I don't care for is the extreme high end gets a little bit hissy on certain tracks, but that's probably because it's a cheap compression driver, the rest of the sound is really damn good. I do like that they aren't fussy, I haven't yet managed to find a song that they don't sound good playing. I know they really shouldn't sound as good as they do, and I didn't expect them to, and nobody believes me when I tell them, but they are the best all-round speakers I've heard simply because they aren't fussy and let me hear things that other speakers simply don't, I like them and that's all that matters.
I can't agree more Paul. Subs do make a difference. And no, you don't necessarily want the sub to stand out, so more as a complimentary device rather than a device just used to shake walls. I've always had subs in my systems, and it's sounded ok that is until... I changed out my sub on my main home system, and wow what a difference. I never imagined it could have sounded better but I replaced a 12" ported sub with 200 watts powering it, with a more powerful 12" sub with 600 watts powering it. I have the system fairly well balanced at this point, but when I play that Boz Scaggs song Thanks to You, my system easily hits every note in that song. Thank you Paul!! I really wish you could hear my Frankensteined system. I know you would laugh, but after hearing it I think you would really like it, especially for the cost being relatively low.
I have a subwoofer in my basement recording studio but not in my livingroom hifi. I have run a cable from my hifi shelf thru a wall to allow a sub but it's only an extension from the left speaker. Is there any danger in parallel wiring out of the one speaker?
funny timing just picked up a nice sub for my bookshelves. got them fairly well set up with rca. have the option for high level inputs but planning on using the Dayton dsp lf. I'm still contemplating if high level input would be better than dsp via rca. thoughts people?
I have the dayton DSP. works great on lower freqs and your phone can control the set up. It has many presets so if you like to tweak on the fly and have fun, its pretty cool. Kind of a play toy learning device. Downside is it is analog input then converts to digital, does its thing and then back to analog. If you bluetooth to it, it may or may not be better. I have Daytons Bluetooth transmitter snd that did a very good job of inputing.
@@SJMessinwithBoats my thinking is that the trade off of a to d back to a will be justified by the more linear bass response and room correction. Also I have one spot for the sub so room correction sounds great to me. I got to ask how do I do the automatic I woofer calibration I get the app part but do I set the subwoofer crossover at its highest setting and make the dsp do more work or tune to my room/ears without it then add it and keep the crossover the same? that's one thing I'm confused about!
@@JMJM75257 I have zero room correction experience. I know that it started being popular in the early 80's to do the analysis stuff. Never had any desire for that. Its just my suggestion to use the dsp, play and learn. I actually played with high passing and low passing (band pass) the sub with it and that was a lot of fun controlling the excursion and then chopping the highs out and playing with the slopes.its 6,12,18 and 24db/octave slides and different types of filters like Butterworth or others. I didn't play with time delay and such. It was also neat to play with the eq adjustments also for the sub. I normally turn flat for the kids and highs.
I have a question, is there any big difference between a 600 dollar subwoofer and a 350 dollar subwoofer, i got the cheaper one and its main use is movies and music, not music production, the more expensive one is the yamaha hs8s and is used for music production. Is there any big differnece between them. Should i upgade to the expensive one or not?. Both have the same frequency range.
It's true. My (home music) life was changed 35 years ago when I added my first subwoofer. Today, it would be considered firewood compared to new ones. Over the years, I changed over to 2 subs in the listening room. And my music playback life was changed again. Not for more low bass, but for better distribution of the bass throughout the room. Choose yours carefully. And experiment with placement, phase, and their low pass filter.
Paul, Jeff (whose e-mail you answered) gets it. He understands the role of a sub-woofer. However, most people do not. Folks that watch your videos will have a higher percentage of people that understand. But even in your audience, I suspect that the majority of people do not understand (just a guess, and I hope that I am wrong). There are countless people that simply want to shake the room. Nevermind whether or not the artist has the bass in the song. Some folks just want artificial bass, and an excessive amounts of it. When you do not have a stereo that does proper imaging and soundstaging and has focus, etc, you cannot appreciate what you are missing (if you never heard it, you are unaware of it). Most folks have never heard the stereo in your building, or even entry level Vandersteens. And even if they did hear Vandersteens, that does not mean that the room was good and the speakers were properly placed, etc. So most folks, by a wide margin, never heard a really good stereo do its thing. They heard loud, shake the walls sound, and associate that with a kick-ass system. If that makes them happy, that is great. People base their opinions on stereos that they have heard, and probably only 0.00001% (one in 100,000 -- just a guess) of people have heard a proper stereo -- so they are not basing great sound properly, because they never heard it. So a sub for those folks would not fix what is not accurate to begin with. In 2006, I was shopping for a stereo. One of the manufacturers I considered was Vandersteen. I listened to them in 5 stores in the NY (tri-state) area. They all sounded so-so. I wondered what all of the Vandersteen hoopla was about in the reviews. Then I heard the exact same speakers in a 6th store, and was blown away. That was my wake-up call. But most folks will never experience that. So they get a sub-woofer to shake the room.
Maybe someone can help me with this. I have a pair of active Roland DM-20 monitors that i use for bluetooth music. 5 inch drivers and ported. They sound very nice and have good lows and highs. However, when i play music through my not so expensive jvc earbuds i notice the lower end is much richer and drives harder. We are talking £10 earbuds, but there seems to be a much richer oomph when using them. I wanted that experience in my home speakers and was wondering if a subwoofer would bring that punch that seems to be missing on my monitors. Any tips on a compact subwoofer ? And should i get ported or sealed or passive radiator? My music varies but i enjoy modern EDM style or richer bassy synth sweep styles. Thanks for any tips!
f you are a vinyl fan, connect a 1uF film capacitor in series with the subwoofer inputs, combined with the standard 100k input impedence of the sub, it will roll frequencies off below 10Hz, causing less unwanted cone movement and improving those frequencies above 10Hz (all thats needed!)
I fully agree. I use a sub at home in my audio system and took the time to get it right. I do the same when mixing live shows (I have a small company doing live sound and lighting design). While I might not have the best gear in the world (I'm using HK speakers in my Pro Sound system). The subs disappear, and the whole system sounds sublime. I strongly believe you don't need to have the best of the best gear; you can make any decent system sound amazing with a little care. One of the things I've learned over the years; it's not all about the gear...even the best gear can sound like crap if it's not set up properly.
I purchased a Speedwoofer and a 'bargain' SVS 12".The Speedwoofer is a 10incher and it gives 'punch' in it's range which descends to about 24 hertz and it's located on my front wall the other sits in the corner opposite. Thought I like bass it's sometimes overwhelming to where I turn them down about 4.5 db. I admit that I rarely let my system ROAR so this level of augmentation is ideal for me. Total cost was less than a thousand and my Ohms LCR (I like them a lot.) about $3K. My remote speakers are Mirage's micros which give a great blend into the omnidirectional field the mains produce. Total was less than $5K and for my type of listening (relaxed and infrequently intense) it's about ideal anywhere in my living area..
Interesting subject! That is, because I'm wondering about the following. I own a nice pair of Anthony Gallo's Reference 3 speakers. I still quite like them but I'm really missing the evolving midrange and some more pronounced bass. These speakers are not involving me as much as another pair of speakers I have, the B&W 683s2. Reading this topic and subject about subwoofers makes me wonder... Would it be worth a little investment to also connect the 2nd pair of woofer voice coils (!) inside these Gallo's? Gallo released the optional 'Reference 3 SA bass amplifier' to make this possible but this one is not on the market anymore, also not occassion - I guess another kind of bass amp could do the job nowadays. Most of all I'm wondering if, when I would connect an extra bass amp, it will not only have an effect on the lower regions but also and hopefully even more on the midranges and would I experience more flesh and body to the overall sound??? Because that's what's missing right now! I think these Gallo's should be able to sound 'better' than the B&W 683s2 speakers... Thank you for any reaction on this, I'm really curious... Best regards, René
The trend of younger consumers playing music on smart phones, crappy earbuds and tiny Bluetooth speakers have made music mastering focused on how music appeals within that market and rather than optimizing utilizing a full-range system with clean sub bass, they add harmonics to it so those devices still make some sound. That's a bummer, but perhaps it makes mass consumers happy with their crappy audio gear while those of us spending on an audiophile system will find much of modern music unappealing.
It’s like the 40s and 50s when records were mastered to the shit that was popular to listen on. Fine with me for now, less young people interested in this stuff means the used market is more open to me. Kids today have no idea the practical value of old audio and video gear.
Yeah, it seems the loudness war is still ongoing, ever more oversaturated and overcompressed, Cheap crap sounding Bluetooth speakers have certainly not helped in this area... No effort needed = very little given
I have a very large, powerful system in my shop. Nothing great but multiple speakers, multiple amps and powered subs. Decent setup too. Crap room though. I have a few young friends that usually listen to their phones with earbuds or headphones and Bluetooth bookshelves at home. They come in, listen for a while and are quite surprised, I'm not. Most younger people have listened to their phones through crap for years. If their stock stereo in their car is the best listening they have heard, there is a lot of "up".
So true. I have a beautiful pair of Paradigm 9SE at our place and the girlfriend will still listen to music through her phone speaker. I'm at least starting to get her to stream her favourite radio station over our sound system now. I don't really care what music is playing, I just don't want to hear the shrill of a phone speaker in the background.
Sometimes I need to fiddle (like Nero) around with the volume, crossover frequency and even the phase controls on my subwoofer when I really want to listen to a recording that is not representing itself properly. After I finish, I reset the controls to where I had set them because these settings work for most of my recordings. The best way to really understand what a subwoofer brings to the party in your system is to listen to some major Organ recordings that can shake the house or stand up bass on a large “double A” particularly Brian Bromberg or Christian McBride who has the strongest fingers of any bass player I have ever heard. When Christian plays, you can hear every note succinctly emanating from the sound box of his Bass.
I have been using twin 10 inch yamaha subs for years. But after upgrading the crossovers caps to dayton film caps and internal wiring they have come to life. Finally my system just blows me away. Music great, theater is like your in the movie. Tuned correctly at last. However i also have twin 12inch active subs that now seem to be excessive once intirn them on. Considering downsizing to 2 more 10 inch subs instead for the added clarity of the smaller cone displacement.
Thank you. It's taken me a while to take the plunge but finally added a single subwfr. to my 2-channel set-up with standmount speakers. I appreciate fully that the sub is there to enhance only and on some older recordings it might seem it's not doing anything at all. (But it does 'enhance' - did a comparison test on a 1960s James Brown recording with the sub off and then on.) My only slight 'issue', if it can be called that, is accomodating different genres, where bass is so prominent, e.g. dub reggae and much electronic music. I know much of it could be 'psycho-acoustical'(?) but if the controls were accessible, I know I would be tweaking them ever so slighly to deal with this! The only 'downside' of having wide musical tastes, I guess?
I have two 10" subs and occasionally just for fun I mute them to just hear music through my floorstanders and it's really different and surprising how much they contribute sonically to a performance, beyond that of adding the missing lower frequencies. Ironically it's funny when reversing the process as subs on their own make me worried about getting old and losing my hearing.
I am lucky that I have a pair of JBL lx2005 and they have a Frequency Response: 35Hz to 22kHz. Playing SACD like Don Grusin and temporary circumstance I get all the highs and lows. It sound fantastic. When I watch a movie, the sub woofer comes into it's own with sound effects like explosions etc.
In my theater setup I have been able to get more out of my subs by actually turning them down. Which seems really counter intuitive. However what it has done is gone from bone shaking jaw rattling to making space under the track. Like a trampoline on the floor, you need space under it all. Then you can go as high and low as possible and feel as if most of the time you're floating. Because of the bass is too loud, which is per individual I suppose, then that octave really cannot be discerned due to excessive field diffraction.
I'm on my 2nd kef subwoofer used one with my hifi for over 10 years and the new kef is setup to sound like the bass is coming from my 90s mission 751 speakers well good and the new British blue aura v40 valve amp, even better.
My single REL needs a recone... Can't wait to get the room sounding 'live' again, You don't need much, a single sub will fill in stuff you didn't know was there 🔊💨😁
Anyone here try the Rhythmik subs? I am running Magnepan LRS with a PS audio Stellar Gain Cell dac and Pass Labs amplification. I have read that the Rythmik servo subs work better with magnepans than Rels, but I have not heard neither. I think due to how REL subs hook up, I can only use one with the Pass amp.
I have the Definitive Technology Mythos ST's with built in powered subs that go down to 20hz l also have two SVS Ultra 13 subs, so no lacking here in the bass department Even with the DT with the built in powered subs, the additional two subs make a big difference! Another song to give your subs a good workout is London Grammar Hey Now
I have a couple subs and a bunch of pairs of speakers I rotate in & out of duty. When I'm using a sub my goal is not to even know it's there, until I turn it off. That's when it's conspicuous by it's absence. I use it to back fill the sound the main speakers aren't capable of producing.
In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer. So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer. One thing to mention is that DSP wether seperate DSP or the Sub DSP when influences the signal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the main speakers and your HiFi system. Soo. best buy a good set of speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. This will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V or PS audio speakers . Or Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....
I know there will come a day when I finally do it and will say my goodness why didn't I do this years ago. Does a sub make the system more intrusive on the rest of the house?
Do it! Its just so fulfilling to hear bass notes not rolling off and have more punch. Intrusive? I dont think so, as long as its set up correctly. The only time the bass is intrusive in my home is if im watching a movie with a lot of action scenes. Playing music, not really.
I can imagine a note where Paul says there should be one on "Thanks to You." It sounds like there is a "hole" there. I'm listening on headphones that definitely will play 20hz, yet I hear nothing in that spot. How low is that note?
Deepest (synth) bass note in "Thanks to You" is an A at 27.5 Hz (playing in the guitar solo), this is lower than a 5 strings bass can produce (B at 30.9 Hz). Excellent piece of music by the way ...
The thing I don’t understand about the subwoofer advocates is they don’t seem to mind the fact that big high excursion drivers flapping around creates a lot more distortion then say a horn loaded bass bin that essentially turns a LF driver into a LF compression driver thereby limiting the cone movement hence greatly limiting distortion. Paul Klipsch believed that subwoofers are inherently bad and I tend to agree with him. You can achieve much lower, smoother and more desirable bass utilizing this method over adding stand alone direct radiator subwoofers that add large amounts of IMD. This is proven fact hence I just don’t understand why anyone promoting high standards of audio reproduction would be such a huge advocate for this proven inferior method of adding extended low frequencies. More bass and quality bass are not one and the same. I’m not entirely against subwoofers but without utilizing a horn loaded design you’re not really adding desirable low end reinforcement unless you’re just used to substandard bass, as most people who have never experienced what a well designed LF horn are, that it doesn’t sound bad to you.
Regarding the Boz Scaggs "Thanks To You" reference: I would appreciate (and other might, too) if folks would list songs that have deep bass (octave wise -- not boosted mid bass). For example, O-Zone Percussion Group, Bamba (La), Jazz Variants, has some deep notes, especially at the end of the song. Track #10: us.7digital.com/artist/o-zone-percussion-group/release/o-zone-percussion-group-bamba-la-1682469 Maximum Boom for Your System, Vol. 5, Disk #2, track #16, Heavy Metal Bass, has notes that go really deep. I mean "deep". us.7digital.com/artist/various-artists/release/maximum-boom-for-your-system-vol-5-explicit-5992685 I hope that others will make recommendations. Cheers!
If you want to make the sub disappear completely you have to cross it at 60 HZ or lower. The lower the better. Then the bass will blend with the speakers perfectly ! If your speakers are 55 Hz (at -3 dB) cross the sub at 60 Hz If the speaker go under 50 Hz cross the sub at 50 Hz and so on.
Hay Paul ! Still waiting for an answer if you will take 500$ for those Infinity speakers in the listening room...the sweet subs they have will be nice 😀
The track that blew me away on my new sub was The Package by A Perfect Circle! Got a Wharfedale D-10 sub to go with my Wharfedale Linton 85th anniversary editions. Really put a smile on my face.
Paul - took your advice and added a pair of REL subwoofers, you are right, the sound coming out of my speakers is deeper, fuller, richer, more alive when properly recorded music is played. Never going back. Thanks!
“Properly recorded” really makes me think of the radio gnome invisible trilogy by the band Gong. Recorded very well and the music itself knocks my socks off every time.
#metoo
A belated thanks! I just recently started following you.
I'm 67 and decided to put together a small low-end bookshelf system with a turntable for my small living area.
I bought all new components, but
I was still on the fence about a subwoofer. I had already figured out that all I needed was some bass help for my speakers, and have found an 8" 60W sub .
The concept of the "missing octave" really sealed the deal, I hadn't previously considered what all was down there in the lower end, that I could be missing. So I ordered the subwoofer today.
Thanks!
I've always been an advocate of left and right subwoofers for music like you said it just fills the whole bottom end and can make a modest size set of bookshelf speakers seem like they're a gigantic set of towers.
That's why I am using 2.2 and love how it just is all there :D
"The whole dynamic" is what many of us call "Floor". The lowest room info. (Presence). Keep up the good work, Paul. Tweeker
I ran a sub for years. When my old
Velodyne's on-board amp gave out, I was reminded of just what the sub
does for the over-all sound. When I replaced my sub I was told to
“stop thinking of the sub as a speaker, but rather a
pressure-generator”. It was at this point, when for the fist time,
I really understood the function of a sub. When a sub is properly set
it will pressurize the room creating an ideal medium for all the
frequency above it. In other words, when the air-molecule are close
together (high pressure) the higher waves move faster, cleaner and it
becomes more accurate.
The difference is balls, the subwoofer adds balls to your music.
testicular fortitude
Reminds me of the speech of today: th-cam.com/video/cOXFOpqkC88/w-d-xo.html
@@ThinkingBetter its hard, to take a politician seriously when they cant even talk right
@@SJMessinwithBoats Yes agree. And usually the words you say by accident are not those words you rarely say...
@@ThinkingBetter That is funny!
Even with Mozart string quartet recordings, a decent and properly set up subwoofer can allow you to "hear" the hall / space in which the performance was recorded in.
RACHMANINOV .. symphony nº2 .. the bass gets a whole new level
Yeah Im new to subwoofer and i listened The Boz Scaggs track 'thanks to you' as a test for my new sw and it is amazing! ...I tweaked the sub over time and it sounds like it's coming from the main floor standing speakers. Incredible. Thanks to you Paul!
Paul Dublin
Ireland.
Boz Scaggs Thanks to You and Mannheim Steamroller's Toccata are both reference bass tracks I use!
Deepest (synth) bass note in "Thanks to You" is an A at 27.5 Hz (playing in the guitar solo), this is lower than a 5 strings bass can produce (B at 30.9 Hz). Excellent piece of music by the way ...
Back in 1980, when I was still 8 yo, older audiophiles talking about Mannheim Steamroller had me wondering back then if they too are a West German heavy metal band like Scorpions. 😄
Me too, thanks to you is incredible through a great system
Agree totally.
Every Sub you add, that is adjusted right in level, phase and quality, destresses the entire sound upwarts even into the mid range, I'd say!
Learned it by my own ears in a workshop.
A subwoofer takes out the hard work from your speakers allowing them to be more transient and responsive at what they do, rather than stretching and struggling to hit the lows, its sound reinforcement. Speakers are good at speaking and subwoofers are good at woofing, blending them perfectly is the hard part, but so worth the time.
2 subs can make all the difference even to a very high end system.
That's why they call it HIGH end, it misses the lows :-) Sorry cheap joke, couldn't resist.
@@ESL-Plus 😂😂😂😂 good one
I bought a sealed subwoofer after Paul's advise. I learned a lot about room modes (very bad room), and then I purchased the second one. After many hours of setup, I never hear the subs. Maybe subwoofers are like tweeters; one driver can make music (like small computer's speakers), but specialized speakers are better. I'm not looking for subterranean bass, just for better, adjustable and faster bass to complete faster woofers. Thank you Paul.
Subwoofer is a must in every system👌
Even my 12" floor speakers need a active sub to really shine in the low end. An active sub just brings wonders if it's integrated perfectly👌
And the "Thanks To You" track... Yes it goes DEEP...
I just may have to pickup that new KEF sub that's coming out.
That is very true what you said.
Most people tune their subs for “excursion”
of the woofer. You see that in car audio a lot. Excursion is not real bass. A sub tuned correctly will hit the bass notes only. It makes your speakers sound like they have enormous bass. Car audio subs can be fine tuned to do that also.
car audio is not all spl guys, i hate that misconception
@@1411rammstein
That is True.
SPL competitions are like a sport.
They win trophies.
It’s more of a fad to have rumbling excursion noise.
Feedback is a great word to use in audio. This guy offers some positive feedback and Paul offers his positive feedback and the whole thing is using negative feedback in your audio system to have control over the different aspects of it. Haha!
I started using subwoofers and the sound improved a lot!
My dad always taught me that subs do best in corners. Idk if my ears adjusted to this but its a must for me now. Love feeling that base in my chest
I'd had dual 10" subs in a previous setup environment..but those were sub par (pun intended). Following Paul's advice, I invested in quality dual 12" subs in my new setup. Hands down the best investment in Audio so far..makes my system sing, effortlessly.
Mind you, it took a fair amount of time and patience to get the setup right, with subs properly integrated.
Makes a big difference. Got a big room , former church in my Holliday house. Opens up the sound and experience to another level. Not everybody fortunate to have suchlike big room. But when I added the subwoofers I reached another level, absolutely mind blowing, and added a equaliser to. Against everything I thought was right and pure... the super analytic sound became enraging and joyful.
Yes Paul so true. You helped me get mine right and I could never go back. Much love ❤️
My space doesn’t allow for two subs, but I bought one based on your recommendation. It made a bigger difference in my system than any other one component
i didnt have the space either. my music room was 12x12x9.
with 2 tower speakers, 2 mono blocks & a rack of equip...there just wasnt room.
so i took everything out of my music room, switched my bedroom furniture to the music room.
put the stereo in my former bedroom which is 16x18x10...added 2 subs.... *_ahhh_*
I drove my self mad listening to advise about setting up subwoofer frquency and gain, and almost sold mine at one point but didn't, I found that no one lets on that they are like any speakers they just take a bloody long time to wear in, but boy when they do they are spot on like you say.
Hi Paul. I know you like REL subs. What is your opinion on using the dual woofer newer versions champs from earlier days like Miller &Kreissel (now MK Sound) for music if you have heard them.
Hi Paul I am running two Yamaha 120watt subs on my system it’s taken a while to get them balanced but now the bottom end is perfect and it’s your videos that convince me to bye them. Happy happy 🔊🔊😎
Thanks Paul for your advice, I bought a Wilson Benesch Square one, the mids and the highs are sweet but missing that bottom end. I bought a REL T91 Red and the whole system using my Class D Nuprime Power amp via High Level Input as you suggested is soooo mind blowing that is sounds like the whole band is in your front of you. Cheers from Taiwan.
It's not even a question a subwoofer is a must.
A whole new octave indeed. Love your work! ✌️🌹🇦🇺
Totally agree my sub completely disappears. i would almost swear the sound is coming from my towers.
With my sub the surrounds sound 10 times bigger than they are.
Just added a second sub to my JBL Studio Series 5.1 setup, for a now 5.2 system. It really "smooths" things out. I can sit anywhere in the room and get the same rich effect. I guess two is better than one. :-)
Paul touches a bit on it near the end of this video, but there is a lot of ambient information in very low frequencies.
A lot of hall ambience, especially in classical recordings, is missing without the preproduction of very low frequencies.
Following this particular advice, I got myself an old but mint Dali aw8 to support my eltax monitor 3s... Oh my Lord - this made a whole world of difference. And for almost no money at all - 90€ :D. Thanks Paul!
There's an intriguing piece of equipment sitting mid-shelf in the room behind you. What is it, and may I have it? I have dual 12" subs and love them.
Me too, had ONE for a couple of years, always wanted two but stalled. Then the mfg upgraded and changed the model. That's when I panicked and bought the second older model before they were sold out. Awesome.
Hard to tell, looks like an old Altec but who knows. Perhaps a leveling amp/compressor, mic pre ... hard to tell.
@@FOH3663 Altec or maybe Urie ??
I am very curious about the new kef sub. I hope it sounds as good as it looks.
Glad to hear that you like subs in your system. But why hasn’t ps audio preamps the opportunity for this?
Hello Paul,
I purchased (on "eBay"), a pair of "Osborn Titan Bookshelf Reference Monitor Speakers" I think Gentleman "Used to" own a Stereo shop in Nashville, TN...
I was the second highest bidder (Highest bidder "Flaked Out")...
This particular seller sent me a pair of speaker stands and "MIT" Speaker cables...
"WOW"...These particular speakers sound "Fantastic" !
He has keep in-touch with me and told me that he has "Other" ("High-End" Stereo equipment in his garage since he closed his stereo shop !
I now (also), have purchased an "NAD 208 THX Amp"...
I have yet to hook-up/connect this amp to my "NAD" T776 Receiver and the "NAD 208 THX" Amp !
I am looking forward to this day...
I have asked him if he has "Sub-Woofer"?
He told me that he does, but it is "Vintage" ?!?
"12 inch, Dual-Voice Coil" that is kinda "Buried" in his garage...I can wait !!!
I’ll be honest and say that I am struggling to integrate my 2 rel S/510’s with my TAD me1’s. There isn’t much wiggle room for sub positioning though. They are inside the speaker at the the same angle. I seem to lose the midrange and sparkle of the tweeter when they are on. I hope it’s not down to positioning, or I am in trouble.
I did suffer with horrid system feedback which I sorted with 2 rca cables from my dac to the lfe.
I have the levels so as the subs are not that noticeable, ie within the additive range. It just doesn’t have that integrated sound ...... yet!
Every A and B I do and minor adjustment on the levels, they sound better without. I am determined to make it work!!!!!!
LFE is for movies only, I believe.
@@donny303 You are correct. I still use my high level as intended. The hum I got wasn’t a ground loop hum. And I couldn’t chase the culprit down. This is a fix from the rel site. As long As I don’t use the black as a ground and use the rca from any spare output, being my lampizator, to the lfe and turn the lfe vol down, it acts as a ground.
Grounding an arc amp on the 4 ohms tap was a funny way of going about it at the start and had me worried but that’s how arc do it.
This was my get out of jail free card.
From 3:10 onwards I agree wholeheartedly. It makes music come alive.
Hi Paul, thank you !!!
Musician and old music electronics tech (Hammond Organ, Leslie, and keyboards, odd ball tube amp), gotta have those lows to be in the song.
Thank you for the 80-90 Hrz cut-off frequency info !!! Besides the knowledge, theater finally sounds correct.
One time, I played a low octive note off my Roland Juno 106 synth.... cracked the garage concrete. Hehe... anyways.
I rarely comment, just wanted to say thank you. Have a great one !!!!!!!
Subs are so necessary but also so difficult to get right. The best way I know of to get subs dialed in is with DSP. Room modes can produce 30 db variations through the sub bass range. Using a mini dsp and REW changes everything.
I agree with Mr.Paul 100%, I use powered subs for 20 years, small sub can make small speakers to be big, sub push a lot of air and energy into music... Front ported are my choice, down-fire sub can e tricky to sett right and on the and subs are not - not directional, they need a good place in every room, so play around with sub.
Another great video Paul. Love your channel man!
"Thanks to You" sounds great on my Outlaw sub. :)
So do your IRS III’s need a room filled with subwoofers around the perimeter?
ummmm, im thinking twelve 12" subs ought to do.
One REL T1 for my AV's surround system and T3 and T5 to augment the huge JBL 4330 clones and Halo JC5 amps.
Good advice, well implemented.
My speakers are fairly large when it comes to standmount speakers, they have an 8 inch woofer and dual bass ports on the front. I've noticed that if you listen to a modern electronic song on them that the bass is audible but not thumping like it would be on earphones, but if you listen to an older song from lets say The Hollies, The Beatles or any of that type of music, the bass guitar notes will shake the room. I think that just goes to show that bass on modern songs is optimised to sound good on small speakers which drop out below 100Hz but bass on older songs is optimised to sound good on huge wooden boxes that resonate like hell, have massive cardboard woofers and will wake the dead on 10w from a 6v6 tube amp.
Arlen, I am curious what speakers you have.
@@vinylrules4838 My name's Arlen, not Arlene, easy mistake to make! I never really like telling people what speakers I have, because you cannot judge the way the sound by the brand they're made by. They're Skytec 170.239 PA speakers and I bought them to use as PA speakers, but I listened to them one day and thought "these sound too good for what they are" and so I tried them in my HiFi (my previous speakers have been made by JBL, Mission, Advent and B&W so I do know what "good" HiFi speakers sound like) with my Pioneer A400 amp and I was genuinely blown away, I promise I couldn't believe my ears when they let me hear things I'd never heard before with any of the other speakers I've used. I put their sound down to the really complex crossover network inside, as the drivers are just generic cheap units (although the woofer does have a cast aluminium frame). One thing I admit I don't care for is the extreme high end gets a little bit hissy on certain tracks, but that's probably because it's a cheap compression driver, the rest of the sound is really damn good. I do like that they aren't fussy, I haven't yet managed to find a song that they don't sound good playing. I know they really shouldn't sound as good as they do, and I didn't expect them to, and nobody believes me when I tell them, but they are the best all-round speakers I've heard simply because they aren't fussy and let me hear things that other speakers simply don't, I like them and that's all that matters.
I can't agree more Paul. Subs do make a difference. And no, you don't necessarily want the sub to stand out, so more as a complimentary device rather than a device just used to shake walls.
I've always had subs in my systems, and it's sounded ok that is until... I changed out my sub on my main home system, and wow what a difference. I never imagined it could have sounded better but I replaced a 12" ported sub with 200 watts powering it, with a more powerful 12" sub with 600 watts powering it. I have the system fairly well balanced at this point, but when I play that Boz Scaggs song Thanks to You, my system easily hits every note in that song. Thank you Paul!! I really wish you could hear my Frankensteined system. I know you would laugh, but after hearing it I think you would really like it, especially for the cost being relatively low.
I have a subwoofer in my basement recording studio but not in my livingroom hifi. I have run a cable from my hifi shelf thru a wall to allow a sub but it's only an extension from the left speaker. Is there any danger in parallel wiring out of the one speaker?
You have to be careful of the OHMs the speakers will put out together.
@@finscreenname Good point. Thanks!
funny timing just picked up a nice sub for my bookshelves. got them fairly well set up with rca. have the option for high level inputs but planning on using the Dayton dsp lf. I'm still contemplating if high level input would be better than dsp via rca. thoughts people?
I have the dayton DSP. works great on lower freqs and your phone can control the set up. It has many presets so if you like to tweak on the fly and have fun, its pretty cool.
Kind of a play toy learning device. Downside is it is analog input then converts to digital, does its thing and then back to analog. If you bluetooth to it, it may or may not be better. I have Daytons Bluetooth transmitter snd that did a very good job of inputing.
@@SJMessinwithBoats my thinking is that the trade off of a to d back to a will be justified by the more linear bass response and room correction. Also I have one spot for the sub so room correction sounds great to me. I got to ask how do I do the automatic I woofer calibration I get the app part but do I set the subwoofer crossover at its highest setting and make the dsp do more work or tune to my room/ears without it then add it and keep the crossover the same? that's one thing I'm confused about!
@@JMJM75257 I have zero room correction experience. I know that it started being popular in the early 80's to do the analysis stuff. Never had any desire for that. Its just my suggestion to use the dsp, play and learn. I actually played with high passing and low passing (band pass) the sub with it and that was a lot of fun controlling the excursion and then chopping the highs out and playing with the slopes.its 6,12,18 and 24db/octave slides and different types of filters like Butterworth or others. I didn't play with time delay and such. It was also neat to play with the eq adjustments also for the sub. I normally turn flat for the kids and highs.
I have a question, is there any big difference between a 600 dollar subwoofer and a 350 dollar subwoofer, i got the cheaper one and its main use is movies and music, not music production, the more expensive one is the yamaha hs8s and is used for music production. Is there any big differnece between them. Should i upgade to the expensive one or not?. Both have the same frequency range.
It's true. My (home music) life was changed 35 years ago when I added my first subwoofer. Today, it would be considered firewood compared to new ones. Over the years, I changed over to 2 subs in the listening room. And my music playback life was changed again. Not for more low bass, but for better distribution of the bass throughout the room. Choose yours carefully. And experiment with placement, phase, and their low pass filter.
Paul, Jeff (whose e-mail you answered) gets it. He understands the role of a sub-woofer.
However, most people do not.
Folks that watch your videos will have a higher percentage of people that understand. But even in your audience, I suspect that the majority of people do not understand (just a guess, and I hope that I am wrong).
There are countless people that simply want to shake the room. Nevermind whether or not the artist has the bass in the song. Some folks just want artificial bass, and an excessive amounts of it.
When you do not have a stereo that does proper imaging and soundstaging and has focus, etc, you cannot appreciate what you are missing (if you never heard it, you are unaware of it). Most folks have never heard the stereo in your building, or even entry level Vandersteens. And even if they did hear Vandersteens, that does not mean that the room was good and the speakers were properly placed, etc.
So most folks, by a wide margin, never heard a really good stereo do its thing. They heard loud, shake the walls sound, and associate that with a kick-ass system. If that makes them happy, that is great.
People base their opinions on stereos that they have heard, and probably only 0.00001% (one in 100,000 -- just a guess) of people have heard a proper stereo -- so they are not basing great sound properly, because they never heard it. So a sub for those folks would not fix what is not accurate to begin with.
In 2006, I was shopping for a stereo. One of the manufacturers I considered was Vandersteen. I listened to them in 5 stores in the NY (tri-state) area. They all sounded so-so. I wondered what all of the Vandersteen hoopla was about in the reviews. Then I heard the exact same speakers in a 6th store, and was blown away. That was my wake-up call. But most folks will never experience that. So they get a sub-woofer to shake the room.
Maybe someone can help me with this. I have a pair of active Roland DM-20 monitors that i use for bluetooth music. 5 inch drivers and ported. They sound very nice and have good lows and highs. However, when i play music through my not so expensive jvc earbuds i notice the lower end is much richer and drives harder. We are talking £10 earbuds, but there seems to be a much richer oomph when using them. I wanted that experience in my home speakers and was wondering if a subwoofer would bring that punch that seems to be missing on my monitors. Any tips on a compact subwoofer ? And should i get ported or sealed or passive radiator? My music varies but i enjoy modern EDM style or richer bassy synth sweep styles. Thanks for any tips!
f you are a vinyl fan, connect a 1uF film capacitor in series with the subwoofer inputs, combined with the standard 100k input impedence of the sub, it will roll frequencies off below 10Hz, causing less unwanted cone movement and improving those frequencies above 10Hz (all thats needed!)
Mannheim Steamroller recordings lead me into hi-fi when I was a kid! I haven't played Toccata since I've installed my Rel - I'll have to give it a go.
I fully agree. I use a sub at home in my audio system and took the time to get it right. I do the same when mixing live shows (I have a small company doing live sound and lighting design). While I might not have the best gear in the world (I'm using HK speakers in my Pro Sound system). The subs disappear, and the whole system sounds sublime. I strongly believe you don't need to have the best of the best gear; you can make any decent system sound amazing with a little care. One of the things I've learned over the years; it's not all about the gear...even the best gear can sound like crap if it's not set up properly.
Plus 1 for adding a sub. Changed my life :)
Paul, what is that piece of gear on your right behind the door? Jeez, looks like a 200-year tube amp. Still in use?
I purchased a Speedwoofer and a 'bargain' SVS 12".The Speedwoofer is a 10incher and it gives 'punch' in it's range which descends to about 24 hertz and it's located on my front wall the other sits in the corner opposite. Thought I like bass it's sometimes overwhelming to where I turn them down about 4.5 db.
I admit that I rarely let my system ROAR so this level of augmentation is ideal for me. Total cost was less than a thousand and my Ohms LCR (I like them a lot.) about $3K. My remote speakers are Mirage's micros which give a great blend into the omnidirectional field the mains produce.
Total was less than $5K and for my type of listening (relaxed and infrequently intense) it's about ideal anywhere in my living area..
I really like my Speedwoofer. It was chosen for its small footprint and front firing port. That it sounds good is a bonus.
@@downhillblur708 High value item, that!
Interesting subject! That is, because I'm wondering about the following. I own a nice pair of Anthony Gallo's Reference 3 speakers. I still quite like them but I'm really missing the evolving midrange and some more pronounced bass. These speakers are not involving me as much as another pair of speakers I have, the B&W 683s2. Reading this topic and subject about subwoofers makes me wonder... Would it be worth a little investment to also connect the 2nd pair of woofer voice coils (!) inside these Gallo's? Gallo released the optional 'Reference 3 SA bass amplifier' to make this possible but this one is not on the market anymore, also not occassion - I guess another kind of bass amp could do the job nowadays. Most of all I'm wondering if, when I would connect an extra bass amp, it will not only have an effect on the lower regions but also and hopefully even more on the midranges and would I experience more flesh and body to the overall sound??? Because that's what's missing right now! I think these Gallo's should be able to sound 'better' than the B&W 683s2 speakers... Thank you for any reaction on this, I'm really curious...
Best regards, René
Also a very good song for a deep base test is by Adrian Gurvitz " Classic " .
A very beautiful song !
It's important to have a good DAC too as well as properly wiring the cables (XLR) from mixer/DAC to Audio system. Regards, Maia.
The trend of younger consumers playing music on smart phones, crappy earbuds and tiny Bluetooth speakers have made music mastering focused on how music appeals within that market and rather than optimizing utilizing a full-range system with clean sub bass, they add harmonics to it so those devices still make some sound. That's a bummer, but perhaps it makes mass consumers happy with their crappy audio gear while those of us spending on an audiophile system will find much of modern music unappealing.
It’s like the 40s and 50s when records were mastered to the shit that was popular to listen on. Fine with me for now, less young people interested in this stuff means the used market is more open to me. Kids today have no idea the practical value of old audio and video gear.
Its not really that bad. It sure seems like it though.
Yeah, it seems the loudness war is still ongoing, ever more oversaturated and overcompressed,
Cheap crap sounding Bluetooth speakers have certainly not helped in this area... No effort needed = very little given
I have a very large, powerful system in my shop. Nothing great but multiple speakers, multiple amps and powered subs. Decent setup too. Crap room though.
I have a few young friends that usually listen to their phones with earbuds or headphones and Bluetooth bookshelves at home.
They come in, listen for a while and are quite surprised, I'm not. Most younger people have listened to their phones through crap for years.
If their stock stereo in their car is the best listening they have heard, there is a lot of "up".
So true. I have a beautiful pair of Paradigm 9SE at our place and the girlfriend will still listen to music through her phone speaker. I'm at least starting to get her to stream her favourite radio station over our sound system now. I don't really care what music is playing, I just don't want to hear the shrill of a phone speaker in the background.
Sometimes I need to fiddle (like Nero) around with the volume, crossover frequency and even the phase controls on my subwoofer when I really want to listen to a recording that is not representing itself properly. After I finish, I reset the controls to where I had set them because these settings work for most of my recordings. The best way to really understand what a subwoofer brings to the party in your system is to listen to some major Organ recordings that can shake the house or stand up bass on a large “double A” particularly Brian Bromberg or Christian McBride who has the strongest fingers of any bass player I have ever heard. When Christian plays, you can hear every note succinctly emanating from the sound box of his Bass.
I have been using twin 10 inch yamaha subs for years. But after upgrading the crossovers caps to dayton film caps and internal wiring they have come to life. Finally my system just blows me away. Music great, theater is like your in the movie. Tuned correctly at last. However i also have twin 12inch active subs that now seem to be excessive once intirn them on. Considering downsizing to 2 more 10 inch subs instead for the added clarity of the smaller cone displacement.
Just turn down the volume on the 12" subs. Unless they go so deep that they cause funky room modes I don't see why they should sound excessive.
Thank you. It's taken me a while to take the plunge but finally added a single subwfr. to my 2-channel set-up with standmount speakers. I appreciate fully that the sub is there to enhance only and on some older recordings it might seem it's not doing anything at all. (But it does 'enhance' - did a comparison test on a 1960s James Brown recording with the sub off and then on.) My only slight 'issue', if it can be called that, is accomodating different genres, where bass is so prominent, e.g. dub reggae and much electronic music. I know much of it could be 'psycho-acoustical'(?) but if the controls were accessible, I know I would be tweaking them ever so slighly to deal with this! The only 'downside' of having wide musical tastes, I guess?
I have two 10" subs and occasionally just for fun I mute them to just hear music through my floorstanders and it's really different and surprising how much they contribute sonically to a performance, beyond that of adding the missing lower frequencies.
Ironically it's funny when reversing the process as subs on their own make me worried about getting old and losing my hearing.
Rel has a demo where they play a song with little or no bass and the subs still contribute to the overall sound.
The best advice I took from Paul is subwoofers!
I am lucky that I have a pair of JBL lx2005 and they have a Frequency Response: 35Hz to 22kHz. Playing SACD like Don Grusin and temporary circumstance I get all the highs and lows. It sound fantastic. When I watch a movie, the sub woofer comes into it's own with sound effects like explosions etc.
In my theater setup I have been able to get more out of my subs by actually turning them down. Which seems really counter intuitive. However what it has done is gone from bone shaking jaw rattling to making space under the track. Like a trampoline on the floor, you need space under it all. Then you can go as high and low as possible and feel as if most of the time you're floating.
Because of the bass is too loud, which is per individual I suppose, then that octave really cannot be discerned due to excessive field diffraction.
I'm on my 2nd kef subwoofer used one with my hifi for over 10 years and the new kef is setup to sound like the bass is coming from my 90s mission 751 speakers well good and the new British blue aura v40 valve amp, even better.
I enjoy listening to my favorite records only with subwoofer!
You are kept very helpful share about subwoofer, it is also demantable post for who want to upgrade their old subwoofer. Thanks for the post.
How do some headphones go as low as some claim like 5 hz with such small speakers inside them?..
My single REL needs a recone... Can't wait to get the room sounding 'live' again,
You don't need much, a single sub will fill in stuff you didn't know was there 🔊💨😁
Anyone here try the Rhythmik subs? I am running Magnepan LRS with a PS audio Stellar Gain Cell dac and Pass Labs amplification. I have read that the Rythmik servo subs work better with magnepans than Rels, but I have not heard neither. I think due to how REL subs hook up, I can only use one with the Pass amp.
Led Zepplin - Moby Dick Full (it's 15:13 long, it's here on TH-cam) Sounds great and also images good on good speakers, even though it's just drums
I have the Definitive Technology Mythos ST's with built in powered subs that go down to 20hz l also have two SVS Ultra 13 subs, so no lacking here in the bass department Even with the DT with the built in powered subs, the additional two subs make a big difference! Another song to give your subs a good workout is London Grammar Hey Now
I have a couple subs and a bunch of pairs of speakers I rotate in & out of duty.
When I'm using a sub my goal is not to even know it's there, until I turn it off.
That's when it's conspicuous by it's absence. I use it to back fill the sound the main speakers aren't capable of producing.
Hi Paul, somehow your voice became more majestic with my sub incorporated. 😂
Paul is a genius
In a nutshell. If you don't have seperate Preamp and PowerAmp it is better to avoid mini DSP / Exteanal dsp that let you equalize the main speakers with Subwoofer.
So those with Integrated amp can not use mini DSP / External dsp and thetefore better avoid Subwoofer. Otherwise it is too complicated and the only way would have to be choosing a Subwoofer with Speakers line in and out ( 8 speaker lines) in order to create this equilibrium by making the main speakers use the same DSP of the Subwoofer.
One thing to mention is that DSP wether seperate DSP or the Sub DSP when influences the signal tgat comes to the main speakers might not be the way to go for audiophiles since you are adding extra component between the main speakers and your HiFi system.
Soo.
best buy a good set of speakers that go as liw as 40 Hz and enjoy their dynamics. No need for this extra low bass. Tge bass of the speakers is good enough. This will be a three way speakers not two way. Like sonus faber sonetto III or V or PS audio speakers . Or Like more echonomical Dali oberon 5 or something like that....
I know there will come a day when I finally do it and will say my goodness why didn't I do this years ago.
Does a sub make the system more intrusive on the rest of the house?
Do it! Its just so fulfilling to hear bass notes not rolling off and have more punch.
Intrusive? I dont think so, as long as its set up correctly. The only time the bass is intrusive in my home is if im watching a movie with a lot of action scenes. Playing music, not really.
I can imagine a note where Paul says there should be one on "Thanks to You." It sounds like there is a "hole" there. I'm listening on headphones that definitely will play 20hz, yet I hear nothing in that spot. How low is that note?
Deepest (synth) bass note in "Thanks to You" is an A at 27.5 Hz (playing in the guitar solo), this is lower than a 5 strings bass can produce (B at 30.9 Hz). Excellent piece of music by the way ...
The thing I don’t understand about the subwoofer advocates is they don’t seem to mind the fact that big high excursion drivers flapping around creates a lot more distortion then say a horn loaded bass bin that essentially turns a LF driver into a LF compression driver thereby limiting the cone movement hence greatly limiting distortion. Paul Klipsch believed that subwoofers are inherently bad and I tend to agree with him. You can achieve much lower, smoother and more desirable bass utilizing this method over adding stand alone direct radiator subwoofers that add large amounts of IMD. This is proven fact hence I just don’t understand why anyone promoting high standards of audio reproduction would be such a huge advocate for this proven inferior method of adding extended low frequencies. More bass and quality bass are not one and the same. I’m not entirely against subwoofers but without utilizing a horn loaded design you’re not really adding desirable low end reinforcement unless you’re just used to substandard bass, as most people who have never experienced what a well designed LF horn are, that it doesn’t sound bad to you.
Mine doubles as a pump for the fish tank. :)
Were to ask questions Paul? What is the email?
He said paul@psaudio.com ding dong
Regarding the Boz Scaggs "Thanks To You" reference:
I would appreciate (and other might, too) if folks would list songs that have deep bass (octave wise -- not boosted mid bass).
For example, O-Zone Percussion Group, Bamba (La), Jazz Variants, has some deep notes, especially at the end of the song. Track #10:
us.7digital.com/artist/o-zone-percussion-group/release/o-zone-percussion-group-bamba-la-1682469
Maximum Boom for Your System, Vol. 5, Disk #2, track #16, Heavy Metal Bass, has notes that go really deep. I mean "deep".
us.7digital.com/artist/various-artists/release/maximum-boom-for-your-system-vol-5-explicit-5992685
I hope that others will make recommendations.
Cheers!
Thank you sir
Now we just need a video on what the subwoofer set up properly means.
This is the truth.
Subwoofers for life
If you want to make the sub disappear completely you have to cross it at 60 HZ or lower. The lower the better. Then the bass will blend with the speakers perfectly !
If your speakers are 55 Hz (at -3 dB) cross the sub at 60 Hz
If the speaker go under 50 Hz cross the sub at 50 Hz and so on.
im from the car audio world. sub iz life
im right there with you. ive got 2 Illusion Audio 12" fed by a Mosconi Zero3..... _ecstasy_
a tip for the other small-room listeners:
_you need a subwoofer, too._
_be not afraid_
The key to what he says is that a sub woofer is set up correctly!
Gotta have subs, if anything, you have more headroom to play with plus your towers will thank you
I love small dogs
Hay Paul ! Still waiting for an answer if you will take 500$ for those Infinity speakers in the listening room...the sweet subs they have will be nice 😀
Hah! Fat chance. Someday I may sell them to the right person but they're pretty dear to me. Thanks for putting a smile on my face this morning.
The track that blew me away on my new sub was The Package by A Perfect Circle! Got a Wharfedale D-10 sub to go with my Wharfedale Linton 85th anniversary editions. Really put a smile on my face.