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Atheist Debates - That should be ILLEGAL!?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ย. 2023
- Should Mormon Proxy Baptism be illegal? What about free speech? What about someone praying for you? What about adding your name to the member list of an organization that you're opposed to?
When someone says: "I'll pray for you," my reply is always the same: "Please don't, it burns." The look you'll get . . It's (usually) priceless. 🙂
Probably doing it as a habit, only thing you need to do is tell them that you're an atheist and problem is solved.
The best reply I've heard is "and I'll think for you".
What does that even mean?!
@@TheMilitantMazdakite Its a description of how in many fantasy/mythical books/movies when a cross is held up to a supposed demon, the demon backs off in being burned fashion.
Saying: "Please don't, it burns." Is saying that they are not Christian, but of the opposite side to them, that somehow the prayers burn you since you are of the devil or demons that type of thing.
It is actually hilarious, I'm definitely going to use it myself. Its like saying: Come to the darkside Luke (from Star Wars).
Its intention is to make a mockery of Christian doing pathetic embarrassing absurd ridiculous outdated prayers.
Now you know.
"If God has a plan, then praying is useless. See you in heaven! Or not..."
By these words I proclaim that Joseph Smith is debaptized out of the Mormon Church. There, that should do it.
I'll bet he didn't see that coming
😂
i got one: baptise the planet to atheism. one and done. it _is_ a religion, after all, according to these guys.
"I do declare..."
- (in southern belle accent)
I'm using my mind powers to unbaptized Jebus. Whew glad I was able to stop the apocalypse, you guys should praise me for my super powerful mind.
Thank you for the prayer Matt, now I’m free! Like a ship that has been degaussed, I’m now de-godded, excellent discussion! You’re the best MD!!!
there are some banned free speech, though. just so you know some speech can be considered "threatening" or "terroristic". i dont think it applies here, but i dont think baptism applies anywhere to be fair.
Matt Effin Dillahunty
Ships get degaussed? Learn something every day…
@@jursamaj they even have gauss cannons! what a time to be alive... probably?
Thanks, Matt! I was baptized into the Presbyterian church in 1966, and it's weighed heavily on me ever since. Feels SO GOOD to have that burden lifted!!
Two incidents came to mind as I watched this, both with different outcomes.
The first one involved a coworked and me chatting about getting laid off. He suddenly says he would pray for me. He knew about my lack of belief and instantly winced. I told him I appreciated the thought.
The second one was while I was shopping with my wife, we ran into the mother of a high school classmate. We chatted for a bit about my unemployed status and then, just as I'm turning to leave, she grabbs my arm and wants to pray. I told her no. She insisted, so I said no again, a little more forcefully. She finally let go of me and sped off. I don't even feel bad about offending her, as she violated my person space and tried to insert her beliefs into the situation.
I don’t mind prayers provided two conditions: 1. you pray for me in regards to my expressed needs and 2. You don’t pay for me to convert to your religion
Under those conditions I see it as a way of sharing well wishes. I’ll generally consent to letting people pay for me for the sake of their conscience, if they can accept that their prayers are unlikely to mind about my beliefs.
@@HarkerFerry There were two things she did that annoyed me. First, she just grabbed me. I only like to be touched by a small handfull of people, and then only under certain circumstances. With the pandemic in recent memory, grabbing random people in public should still carry some taboo. Second, she didn't offer to pray for me or ask that I pray with her, she just insisted that I pray with her. She assumed that I shared her beliefes and wouldn't take no for an answer.
@@gmgurp6666 I can't understand for the life of why people like you think the covid pandemic - it is very definitely NOT!
@@gmgurp6666 i've found it to be very common for religious people to have little insight when it comes to reversing their positions when putting their beliefs on an atheist. they seem to be unable to reflect on what they've just done, possibly because they are so consumed with wanting to be in the right, despite there being zero evidence to back up their belief.
@@gmgurp6666 Basically she wanted to keep you hostage and force you to endure her prayer.
Even a religious person shouldn't have to put up with that if they feel it's not the right time or place.
Thanks for the debaptism Matt, I'm sure my lack of soul feels extra cleansed, or whatever. But it did make me smile and laugh, and that actually does make me feel better, so for that I thank you.
I'm an atheist married to a Mormon and when I mention that in atheist spaces online its not uncommon for someone to tell me that I should be afraid of my wife having me proxy baptised after I die, which is just bizarre to me; why, as an atheist would I care about some silly ceremony that takes place after I am dead?
There are good reasons to hate baptisms while people are alive, but none of those apply after you’re dead.
Who said you should be afraid? I find it offensive, just like desecrating a dead body.
Would you be disturbed by the idea of your likeness being used to promote the faith after you die as a Mormon success story since you’ve been post mortem “converted?” I realize that Matt is shushing this idea but it’s more sinister than people realize, and if the KKK was listing names after death as “converts” people would be having issues with it.
i figure theres nothing they can do after youre gone... so... ┐(￣ヘ￣)┌ baptise me as much as you like, folks, its just water. im planning on getting plenty of rainfall.
The problem is to members of other religions as well who care very deeply about the silly ceremony that happens after they are and they often have surviving relatives who care about those ceremonies. If you don't care what happens to your body after you die that's all well and good but to someone of a different religion who didn't want to be baptized in life now having his body baptized into a different religion after his death despite his own religion's beliefs and customs is desecration
As an ex-Mormon I can tell you it doesn’t even force them into Mormonism from the Mormon point of view. They believe the proxy baptized person must accept that baptism in the spirit realm.
Still pretty violating of free will.
"What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long."
Thomas Sowell
Its obnoxious but my main concern is they seem to be accessing some degree of personal private information about people to do this. Depending on how the hedgefund masquerading as a church is accessing that information that aspect should possibly be illegal.
In the EU there’s a very stringent regulation to protect personal data. It is certainly illegal for an entity to collect and store personal data without the express consent of the person. 40 years ago is a little too old though. Statute of limitations.
@@pansepot1490 Right but they're still at it today. Where are they getting this new information? Have they basically committed identity theft on a planetary scale?
@@pansepot1490Yep, the JWs are already struggling in the EU over this.
So as an ex Mormon I can say that the main source for names used in proxy baptism is Mormons doing genealogy and using their own ancestors names, which usually comes from things like written family history or publicly available information like census records or cemetery headstones. Also the software tools I'm aware of for this do not allow information about living persons to be shared. So I guess the question is when does personal private information become a matter of historical record? IMO the answer is maybe not right when they die, but definitely some point between them being dead and all their children being dead.
It’s definitely distasteful. And pretty arrogant if you think about it.
But while they’re at it, I think they should go ahead and baptize Muhammad into the Mormon church and see how that goes over with the Muslim communities
BTW there was a concerted effort to baptise random victims of the holocaust. Jewish groups objected and the Mormons stopped it unless undertaken by a descendant of the victim.
I’ve just been de-baptized by the Pope of Atheism. Thanks Matt!
What...is everyone taking the mormon fairytale as real?
That's like getting upset because the Biwopi tribe in the amazon is taking your grandma's spirit on a ride on the lochness monster.
"YOu can't talk about my ancestors like that!!"
Thank you for starting my debaptism journey. It's indeed a unique and deeply personal path that I've chosen to take, and your acknowledgment means a lot to me.
The concept of debaptism, while often lighthearted and symbolic, holds a profound significance for many of us who have embarked on this journey of self-discovery and spiritual autonomy. It's not merely about cleansing a "lack of soul" but rather a powerful statement of reclaiming our individuality and asserting our freedom of belief.
In a world where religious affiliations and traditions have played a significant role in shaping our identities, the act of debaptism becomes a beacon of personal growth and intellectual exploration. It signifies our willingness to question established norms and seek our own path in understanding the mysteries of life and existence.
Metaphorically, this act of cleansing can be seen as a shedding of layers - like peeling away the remnants of past beliefs that may have weighed heavily on our hearts and minds. It's akin to the feeling of a refreshing, invigorating shower, where we emerge not only physically cleansed but spiritually rejuvenated, ready to embrace the world with a clearer perspective.
Moreover, debaptism is a celebration of rationality and the power of human reason. It emphasizes our commitment to critical thinking and skepticism, which are the cornerstones of a more enlightened worldview. By renouncing the ties to religious dogma, we open ourselves up to a broader spectrum of knowledge and understanding, where every idea is subject to scrutiny and evaluation.
As we embark on this journey of self-discovery and intellectual liberation, we also find a sense of belonging within the secular community. The camaraderie and support of like-minded individuals can be incredibly empowering. It reminds us that we are not alone in our quest for truth and meaning, and together, we can create a more inclusive and compassionate world, free from the divisions that often arise from religious affiliations.
So, in essence, when I say, 'Thank you for starting my debaptism journey' I'm expressing my gratitude not only for your understanding but also for the profound personal transformation that this journey represents. It's a journey towards embracing reason, celebrating individuality, and finding solace in a community that values freedom of belief and the pursuit of a more enlightened and inclusive world.
Thank you for being a part of this journey with me.
I've a debaptism certificate. and have contacted the church where i was baptized
@@wizardoffrobozz I want one!
Matt, superb analysis! And analogy! 👍💖💙🥰✌
If I was dead and I found out that some Mormans baptized me into their church, I would be so pissed that I would probably come back to life and open up a can of whup-ass!
Thank you Matt for taking me off all those lists.. I love lists, and to defame any of them for any reason... it's a good turn of events. ☮
I am a Latter-Day Saint (aka Mormon) and have participated in batpisms for the dead. I think that we could also use some clarification here.
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Firstly, Matt Dillahunty, I agree with you on every point politically speaking. Part and parcel of living in a society with multiple viewpoints is having to accept the face that people might act and treat each other in ways that are incongruent or dissonant without being illegal. We have to make peace with the fact other people aren't raising their kids the way we think they should, that they're teaching things we think are wrong, and are doing things we might find objectionable. Fully agreed there.
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Secondly, on the matter of baptism for the dead, the Church's doctrine is that the spirits of the dead are actually free to choose whether they accept it or not. They can fully reject it in the life to come. Nor does it alone exonerate them of their sins in life. It's mostly a way as to help those who would've accepted the Church in life if they had the chance to hear it.
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The only records of baptism for the dead are those who had the ceremony performed on their behalf. The dead who are baptized by proxy are NOT actually kept on a list of "deceased members."
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Now there was an agreement between the Church and Jewish groups because the latter has been offended when Latter-Day Saints performed the ceremony for the dead. The rule we have now is that if there is a Jewish name being submitted for baptism for the dead, it must be done BY A LIVING RELATIVE. But again, this is primarily for Jews.
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I don't know if the atheist commentor or their ancestor was Jewish. There is a chance that even if they aren't, there was a living relative who was involved in the ceremony and/or the submission process.
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I did kind of chuckle however with your "debaptism" rite there. This is a little tongue-in-cheek, but who gave you the authority to act in spiritual matters?
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Anyway, well spoken. I just thought it'd be nice to add context to the subject.
Interesting. Thank you.
Excuse me, but if the Spirits of the dead (another BS, IMO) are free to accept the teachings of LDS why is any rite necessary? And why accept them when they have no income and can't pay thites?
"Nor does it alone exonerate them of their sins in life" Citation needed. All talk of baptism, Jesus and the Prophets say it does cleanse from sin. So where you getting your doctrine?
"It's mostly a way as to help those who would've accepted the Church in life if they had the chance to hear it."
What happens to those who didn't hear it, but then didn't get helped by baptism for the dead? Who's to blame then?
@kdsartre9520, what citations are you asking for? Are you asking this strictly within a biblical context? Or do you want a full list of scriptures and sayings of the prophets referring to the practice.
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But I can answer your second part. The issue ISN'T that people who don't get a baptism are automatically damned. Good people who die wait in a spirit paradise until their resurrection. The baptism is a required formal ordinance that will be done whether before or after Jesus Christ's physical return to Earth. The Final Judgement comes only after all the other stuff is taken care of.
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As for why there needs to be a church, the missionaries, the religion, and the doctrine are not only there to actually do ordinances for the dead, but two other purposes as well. 1) is to help teach members to become better people, and to reach out to people who still are, shall we put it, on the fence, or to help sinners who still could be saved if they turned their lives around.
Matt is a legend
I remember something like 13 years ago watching an episode of AXP and hearing Matt suggest that atheists who were former Christians should request to be removed from the roles of their church. It seemed like a good idea, so I wrote an email to my former pastor asking to be removed. That was easily the most awkward email that I have ever sent my dad.
Nice, didn't expect that. If that was awkward, I wonder about family gatherings.
Having every religion perform a conversion ceremony for you after you're dead seems like a good loophole to Paschal's Wager. Sign me up!
Hey !! That's an interesting point.
However, wouldn't they all have to do it simultaneously, so that none supercede others?
@@tonythedwvyer I figure only the religion that's correct would have their ceremony work. God can't be giving magical powers to every religion, right?
@@stove5035No no, wait... What if you're onto something there 😱
Thanks, Matt, I just listened to the premise while getting ready to go to work, and it already put a smile on my face.
It also reminded me how I just saw a discussion on Quora about whether Trump has any rights to the profit from selling merchandise with his mugshot. People were mainly arguing about whether mugshots are public domain or copyrights of the police, they debated that he apparently made a new photo that was similar, but wasn't the original mugshot itself, that he used the insignia of the police department in this fake mugshot, and one person said the profits should fall under the "Son of Sam" law, barring criminals from profitting from their criminal activity.
I have no idea where the truth lies on that one, but I find it absolutely hilarious a topic. Maybe worth a video, even?
Hope you're doing well!
That bit at the end really put a smile on my face. Thanks for that Matt. Not that I'm any different now, but hearing you say it cheers me up.
I have been saved! In the name of the Matt, the Dillahunty, and the Holy Snark! Praise be!
I’ve been trying to make this point for years. Well said.
Just have Your grave sprayed with Off Mormon repellent and it's all gravy, lol 😉
Hallelujah I have been set free
I grew up Mormon and participated in these baptisms. They call them "Baptisms for the Dead" and it is a way of allowing people who have not had the opportunity to be baptized in the church to receive exaltation after death. I don't think I can request the church records of someone that is already dead be removed but I had mine removed which I was told undid my baptism and covenants. Imagine that. God's covenants can be revoked using an earthly lawyer and some legal paperwork.
Thank you Matt. I was never baptized in the first place, so that cleans the slate, just in case a former co-worker tried to slip me into the Mormon church. I never witnessed the baptism process for my mother's church until I was junior high school age, and when I saw them do a full, backwards, body dunk, done three times, I said to myself "Hell No!" Just a couple years later I finally convinced my mother that I didn't really have to go to church.
Thanks Matt for freeing me..
😂❤
This was a great episode❤❤
Isn't this a sort of Necromancy?
The latest sort.
Thanks Matt.
Not sure how I'm going to explain all this to the Allfather though.
You've probably landed me in hot water there at the end.
I agree. Saying things should be illegal should be illegal
😄 Fantastic. Thank you Matt
What I got from this is the confirmation that even unintelligent people can get a PhD.
Or people on Twitter lie about their qualifications. 😅
Edit. Added:
This was fun. Thanks Matt.
Intelligent people can be stupid or ignorant, and being expert in one field doesn't make them expert in others. But I'm pretty sure you need intelligence to get a PhD.
@@donaldnumbskull9745 Education does not rely on intelligence, it's akin to an actor learning a script until they can repeat Einstien's words verbatim, it doesn't mean that they fully understand them. Intelligent people can be uneducated and educated people can be unintelligent. Academics often lack basic common sense I have found.
@@Yungrexy Yeah, sure. However, a truly unintelligent person managing to progress through their education all the way to a PHD would be remarkable to the point of being nonsense.
Certain races only have a iq of 70 the most educated I the best colleges only went up in iq to 75
This got me chuckling, great, just great!!!
Let me add that i have been baptized into several denominations growing up cause my parents changed churches like clothes. But now Matt just absolved me of all them with just one sentence. Thank you sir lol!!!
Thanks for that Matt
Thanks for the de-baptism, Matt. One less thing I have to remember for next week. 😆
It's distasteful. Some people do believe in spiritual stuff and it does upset and hurt people. Baptise the dead of other people really is not a respectable thing to do. Personally I don't care if someone wants to waste their time on baptising me again.
My paternal grandparents paid money to a lawyer to have their religion crossed out in the civil registry. Mormons should at least give a refund if they dared to “baptise” these convinced atheists.
Sweet! Thank you, Brother Matt!
My sister-in-law had a religious service for her dad, my father-in-law. It was so selfish of her to do so, since he was an atheist and specifically said that he didn't want a service. Her self-centered view that he needed to be saved posthumously was entirely narcissistic. The whole event was about her loss. My wife and I are sorry we went to it and it prompted my mother-in-law to add a stipulation that if there was a religious service for her, then my sister-in-law would be out of the will, with the assets going to her kids instead. I miss her. And there was no service. Glad to know that my sister-in-law had a price for setting aside her faith. smh
If they mentioned speaking to their rep then they probably live in the states. Canadians would not talk to a senator and would say MP or MLA not rep.
Amen🙏
Freedom!
Theist: I'll pray for you.
Me: I'll talk to my rats for you. You can expect the same results.
Your rats are more powerful than God, because your rats can chew on things.
Spot on, Matt. Perfectly stated.
😂 Thanks for the unbaptism 😂 honestly I was feeling a little down tonight but this made me feel so much better. Keep up the great work
Love the ending to this video!
They believe in magic. All arguments go out the window after that.
I don’t have a PhD, but I am a former Mormon.
Baptism for the dead is only the first part of the “Saving Ordinances” performed in Mormon temples on behalf of the dead.
Baptism is followed by “Initiatories” - priesthood ordination for the males, and “Washing and Anointing” for males and females.
After that, Children are “ Sealed” to their parents, “Sealed“ to their deceased spouse (or spouses for men), and then have their deceased children sealed to them.
All of this is done with the understanding that it’s only honored by God if the person repents and chooses to accept the ordinances in the afterlife.
While wildly unethical and inappropriate, it means nothing unless you believe the Mormons have actual power from God.
LOLS! My dad died this year and I just found my baptism records. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Whew...that's a load off! You made my day...
"that should be illegal" is analogous to "I want to pay someone else to deal with my own perceived fears".
I don't care if someone tries to baptise me after I die. I only care if someone tries to baptise me on the street and won't leave me alone, harassing me as I go about my way. Concerning the freedom of speech, the European Convention on Human Rights says:
*"The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."*
TL;DR: You're free to speak, until you're infringing on other rights or threaten society as a whole.
Protecting the right not to be harassed by a street preacher is necessary. 🙂
The dead don't need protecting.
Then yr gonna hate this. ❤Jesus power here is proof. 😮
Warning it is intense
@@raya.p.l5919 Hate? It's a slight annoyance at best. But you've just offended the ancient Vorlon God Booji. So.. Zog onto you!
@@Klepske yr time starts now
Love!
Lets baptise (or equivalents) all 7 billion and future people into ALL religions. Pascal wager solved for everyone. That’s more than any prophet or avatar of god did. I’m a hero.😂
I largely agree Matt, Morals and Ethics are pretty much interchangeable in most circumstances and conversations....
However, MORE' s (pronounced Moray) are a Distinction that can be important to use in conversations.... They are things like .... Co Sleeping with kids... Inter family Nudity (or Socially acceptable nudity... Saunas...
Theists have trouble making that distinction.....
Just a not so Humble thought
Such a great point. Thanks for changing my mind.
13:46 are words of wisdom that ALL humanity must consider as a way of living ❤
Morals > Ethics > Law
Individual > Society > Institution
This kinda basic framework is what helped me understand the distinction between each concept. More importantly? That morals should shape society, and then society shapes law; it should never be the other way around, _"If you allow the law to determine your morality, you are letting lawyers & politicians teach you right from wrong."_
*~Justin King*
"You do not have a right to not be offended." I agree with this statement, but for those who have a hard time counting the the "not's"... let me rephrase it. "You do not have the right to be protected from feeling offended."
The dead do have rights that protect their body and graves from being desecrated and I think that forcing a corpse to perform a religious ritual, from a religion different from the one they practiced, that they did not and would not consent to, should definitely count as desecration.
What nonsense
@@SansDeity in what way? Desecrating a corpse is a class H felony. There are laws on the books that protect corpses from abuse and laws that give living relatives the right to pursue legal action when the remains of their loved ones are being disrespected. What part of that is nonsense?
@dariuspatrick1385, you don't seriously mean to tell us that you're under the impression Latter-Day Saints like myself baptize the actual physical bones of dead people in these rituals, do you?
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You'd think that a grave-robbing enterprise that big would've already been exposed and plastered all over the news, especially given the many critics and especially bad-faith critics of the Church who'd leap at the chance to prove it.
"You don't have a right to not be offended" is such a reductive, useless comment. Most importantly, it ignores the fact that a lot of discriminatory speech (which people call "offensive") DOES ACTUAL HARM to the minority groups that it attacks. In many situations, you absolutely DO have the right to not be offended, because "offended" in those cases means "bring harmed by the speech of others." So by your own standard, you lose the right to do it, because it causes harm.
"Words cannot hurt you" is a lie. Plenty of research demonstrates that words cause harm. Kids are bullied into suicide every year. Words can cause actual harm., psychological and physical.
I find the reference to free speech above all else here to be suggestive of a particularly American bias, which values speech over the people who the speech harms.
Yeah I don't think he was going for free speech absolutism but it did have that ring to it. In this instance though there is no harm being done by the speech in question 🤷♂️
I disagree. The speech that offends need not be harmful. For example, If I say ‘Flat-earthers are dumb’, it will likely offend, and rightly so, but it does no harm. If a Mormon “baptizes” me, I may be offended, but I am not harmed.
I hope you will re-think your conflation of “offend” and “harm”.
Not all "harm" violates your rights, though.
That's the difference.
After fifty years of examining the complexities of competing religious beliefs I could not be happier as a non believer.
Nice job Matt that was awesome!
Are there people out there saying it should be illegal? to pray for someone.
If that’s the case - wow 🤦🏻
The endin' though...🤣🤣🤣
It is reprehensible, yes. It is disgusting, yes. It is illegal, no.
Besides, if they don't think the Mormon faith is factual, then Mormon baptisms won't do anything to their dead relatives soul.
In most states, the deceased have more rights than the women who live in those states.
As a dead person who was resurrected and is now a zombie I want to sue the people who give zombies bad reputation because of Hollywood movies we are actually nice people
That should be illegal!!! No... that should be irrelevant!
"I'll pray for you." Reply: "I'll think for you."
Thx for the debaptism, Matt!
I was told that my confirmation ceremony in the Catholic Church made me a soldier of Christ. Maybe I should ask for back pay.
I love that ending.
If someone tells me they’ll pray for me, I usually just tell them I’d rather you pray for a child dying of cancer. It makes for interesting conversations.
Thank you for that debaptism, I’ve now been freed from the catholic spell casted upon me when I was a baby. 😄
Hilarious! The end had me laughing.
On one hand I think it’s highly audacious of the Mormons. On the other I feel like they’re wasting their time.. and I do appreciate the genealogy work that comes out of this.
I was waiting for you to mention the one case where this would be problematic, and you did! They should not be allowed to list a private person’s name in their public registry without the person’s consent. Apart from that, they can say what they want.
What should be illegal is innocent young children being told religion is true and factual. Every religious lesson should end with ''this is what we believe but there are hundreds of religions and nobody knows which, if any, is true.''
What about telling them they’re born in the wrong body and chopping up their genitalia? Matt’s ok with that.
There was power in your debaptism! I got those soically-programmed, spiritual goosebumps.
I wonder if someone can unbaptise their late grandparents and save them from an eternity of slavery singing glory to Yhwy?🤔
I could almost hear Bruce Dickinson singing "Freeeedoooooom!" in the background. XD
😁
I completely agree.
Except... with this SCOTUS, it occurs to me that it might be possible for the church to claim some kind of legal rights to the deceased's body or something weird like that, by virtue of their right to do what they want as religious actions. Given that "firmly-held beliefs" now make it legal for people to actively threaten public health despite *strong* evidence to the contrary, something this stupid could become a reality. 😟
I agree with you on some levels but our sympathy is usually short lived.
*Illegal* isn't a real thing. Lying is, but it's totally formal and you CANNOT perceive or quantify for levels of deception.
Oh no, i am in danger of your imaginery friend? The power of spongebob compels you. Sigh.
A Canadian would go to their Senator or call their MP a “representative”, so that Canadian was likely able to vote in America. Those seem distinctly American.
Ask anyone who in principle agrees with hate speech laws (like we have in the UK) to define what "hate speech" is? Once they have exhausted all the special pleading arguments that they can think of, they will invariably arrive at the realisation that hate speech is just what they personally deem as hateful.
Matt, you actually sound like a libertarian in this talk.😊 Also the things that you mention are the basic cornerstones of conservatism.
Our issue with proxy baptism, and why we think that in this specific case a point could be made about the legality of it...
The Mormon church uses the collection of proxy baptisms to lie and say people were members of the church when they are not, were not, and never would be a Mormon.
We're not a free speech absolutist, and we don't think it's worthwhile to engage with absolutism on the matter of free speech, because speech just isn't free anywhere. Matt himself even gives an example of a type of speech you can't do legally: perjury. Do we agree that amongst responsible individuals people shouldn't be legally reprimanded for innocuous statements or expressing beliefs we can not demonstrate to cause local or widespread harms? Yeah. That seems reasonable, and a lot of people argue that is what free speech *should* mean, even if it doesn't. But this proxy baptism thing? We don't think it falls under that framework anymore.
Anti-theists we have engaged with tend to agree that religious indoctrination is pretty harmful. Not just to the individual who is indoctrinated, but also to society now experiencing a break down of the value of truth. We think it is fair to say that lied lies by liars being lied to convince people that "X famous person" or "Y person you know" was baptised into the Mormon church are harmful actions being taken specifically to convince people that they should also allow themselves to be baptised into the Mormon church... in a weird appeal to authority fallacy. We do think it is intentionally malicious and designed to cause the kind of harm we spend a lot of our time fighting.
Do we think it should be illegal? Well, we're not a legal expert, so we can't really say whether it should be or not. Maybe an argument could be made for something like this becoming illegal. It may not matter to us whether people personally lie about us post-mortem... But we do care about the people who may be convinced by this incredibly dishonest appeal to authority the Mormon church engages in the fabrication of on a regular basis. We, for one, want to see the practice end, regardless of its legality or not. If making it illegal stops it from happening, we're not necessarily opposed to having that tool in our tool belt.
It did not seem people were arguing it from the angle of the Mormon church's purpose in doing these proxy baptisms, and they were instead acting as if their freedom of religion had been infringed. To those people? The Mormon church doesn't have to respect your 1st amendment rights, because they aren't the government. The 1st amendment only protects you from prosecution by the government, not from your peers.
Cults do not respect boundaries.
Love resoects. Narcissism does not.
And together, say with me . . . . . Ahhhhhhhhhh-Choo.
With that argumentation religious person saying "Bless you!" should be illegal, too, when it is directed to an atheist or even a person from a different religion. 🤣
Exactly. I was thinking of Catholic mass when attendants pray for the souls in purgatory. Sometimes it’s someone specific, but most often is for everyone who is dead. Afaik as I know Catholic doctrine doesn’t send people to hell just for not believing. Anyone who is a good person and doesn’t sin too much has good chances of landing in purgatory. Are they even allowed to place my father’s non existent soul in their non existent afterlife concentration camp? Is that legal?
The outro was amazing
That was an awesome video Matt !!
:O I came here a devout Pastafarian, but now you have de-sanctified me without my consent!
THAT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL! Someone should make, like, a video about this.
Had to wait 8:50 for one memorable thing..."magical nonsense".
Someone clip the end and share widely, the meltdown will be hilarious.
If there is a pearly gate, there`s also a fence or a wall. Is this what it`s for? You die, stand in front of that gate and you say I don`t belong here. And the guy says, nope sorry you`ve been baptized. You have been sentenced to eternal happiness no exceptions, get in there and be happy for ever
Technically the dead do have rights. They're limited of course, but last will and testaments as well as laws concerning the body are some examples of laws intended to protect the rights of deceased persons.
I've just un-baptized and proxy-renounced Christianity (and any derivation thereof) on behalf of every believer throughout history, including Jesus himself.
As the baptism of Jesus signified the start of his public ministry, the whole of the gospels is now null and void. It was just some guy saying things. Western religion is canceled, and we can all get back to living our lives. Carry on!