I've also seen some people say that after you hit a kid you need to sit down and talk to them about what they did wrong so they understand... then why did you hit them??? If the talking part is what actually fixes things why did you hit them??? Mind boggling, I hope in the future children wont have to deal with this bs
@@jenniferferris44 oh... so, you're saying it's ok to hit someone as long as their values don't align with yours? Ok. Not the most intelligent thought, but you do you.
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanks if their values are based on genocide of all that isn't exactly like them, then hitting is the nicest thing we as a society of different people from different cultures with different backgrounds striving for different life goals living different lifestyles can do to them. I am willing to fight to protect others in our society from erasure or genocide regardless of diversity 💗🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈🥳 I didn't just use a group with different 'values', I used an existential threat to the greater majority of the world
@Jennifer Ferris I'm Jewish, but that does not give me the right to punch a nazi...I actually wouldn't if I had the chance. You claim to hate others because of their values just because their values clash with yours. You are no better than them. The world is all about values, and everyone has different ones. On the flip side, there are others out there who feel threatened by gay pride and flaunting that around. Where is national Satanism month? Where is the month dedicated to the hundreds of other beliefs out there? Oh, they aren't the majority? Ok, then let's just forget them. Include everyone or sit the fuck down.
Behaviourism is like putting on a bandage each time a child cuts their arms on the playground merry-go-round rather than addressing the jagged edge that keeps cutting the children.
Weird example-- cutting your arm on a playground is a classic negative stimulus. Or are you meta-arguing that behaviorists should have been behaviorally modified to stop being behaviorists by negative reinforcement that occurs as a result of their use of behaviorism?
@@modusvivendi2 the jagged edge of the merry-go-round is the cause of the children bleeding, instead of just putting a band-aid on to stop the bleeding every time they go on it you address the root cause and the child doesn't get cut anymore they are talking about addressing cause off the issue rather then just trying to stop the response
when i was little there was one time where i wanted to pick up some strips of paper. i kept pulling by the edges of the paper and kept cutting myself. my parents didn't really say anything, and just gave me band-aids. then i kinda became afraid of paper. (sorry for bad english)
My mother complains that I "never liked her"; apparently as a toddler I would rather spend time with pretty much any other adult I knew than with her. The pediatrician had to tell her that making the baby cry for one hour because she's hungry after 3h at an age when "the book" said 4h (the book = what she'd been taught in teacher's school, plus those books in fashion at the time, plus the all-too-common misunderstanding that an average value is the only acceptable or even possible value). Both as a baby and as a child, she held me very little and berated other people for holding or hugging me because she saw hugging and holding as "pampering". From the point of view of a hungry baby, someone who refuses to feed you when they're your only source of food, refuses to hold you when most of the time it's just them and you, never hugs you... is not very likable! I got more hugs from the neighbors than I did from her, of course I liked them better!
I related too much to this. Experiences like this and my own lead me to believe that sometimes a “present” but negligent parent is almost worse if not worse than a completely absent parent. I wonder if I’d be less fucked up if my mother had just not been involved in my life because her involvement seemed very self serving and short term, as if she began loving me less and less the older and more aware I became and the less control she could enforce over me. Having narcissistic/emotionally abusive parents is too common for people on the spectrum
I’m so sorry you went through that. What your mother did is abuse, neglecting a child’s need for love and attention from their caregiver is neglect and causes serious harm (attachment disorders and childhood trauma to name just two). I hope you’ve managed to recover from what you went through and are doing better now.
It’s really sad that Page is targeting Autistic low income single parents by demonizing sleep training and confusing it with “cry it out”. Sleep training absolutely advocates for comforting, cuddling, checking back, providing food etc. Cry it out does not. I hope Page learns these terms before she misinforms thousands of vulnerable people
Behaviorism basically forces ND people to suffer to be acknowledged. I am getting my autism evaluation soon, and the biggest fear I have is that I’m not suffering enough now to be acknowledged. At this point I’m 90% sure I’m autistic, and I want this addressed now when I’m in high school so I can get the accommodations I need in adulthood. Because I know that even though I don’t show outward behaviors of my sensory issues and social difficulties, as my world continues to change and I’m forced to work in environments that are hell to me, I WILL begin to show negative and harmful behaviors. But I might not be able to get that until I’m having bigger and more frequent meltdowns or I can barely leave the house outside of work because my workplace is so overstimulating. I KNOW my brain is different, but since I’m not behaving enough like it, I’m not as valid to the medical community. Update: my parents hooked me up with a therapist, yay! But she’s not an expert and autism and describes herself as a behaviorist at heart, oh no! Throughout the beginning of the session she was pretty much just talking to my mom, then when we were alone and I told her why I wanted to come her immediate reaction (after knowing me for like 10 minutes) was “there’s no way you’re autistic” If she were a professional in the field and we’d talked longer I’d be more inclined to accept that, but she didn’t have that going for her. As someone who went into literal years of research before asking for a diagnosis and who has multiple autistic and otherwise ND friends that also thought it’s worth it to look at that didn’t seem adequate to me. I described autism signs I have but she just said “ptsd, adhd, and anxiety all look a lot like autism” and explicitly told me that I shouldn’t research things like this if I think it might pertain to me. Then, as I described why I also think I have adhd, she legit said “sounds like an attention problem” as if there is no A in adhd. She even said I couldn’t have autism because “I would’ve been caught sooner” and when I explained that afab people get diagnosed later she agreed but didn’t take that into consideration at all. All in all, a frustrating experience where I felt like I wasn’t listened to and I was talked down to. She legit said “I’m not an expert on autism at all but I’m like 100% sure you don’t have autism” then asked me if I had any trauma as if that was why I was there.
Yeah, this is a really big problem with all sorts of things. Do people have to end up in a hospital in order to be believed? You don't think Tom has a peanut allergy and you endanger his life? You don't think someone is ADHD/Autistic and you only believe them when they have a meltdown? Don't think someone is depressed until they self harm or attempt suicide? And this happens all the time. With the first example, I've hear so many HORROR stories about people ordering food w/o a certain ingredient bc they're allergic or something, one time someone couldn't have regular milk, they ordered soy milk for their coffee, and the barista put in regular, and luckily she got caught, but she could have put the girl in the hospital. Her excuse? Something along the lines of "oh everyone is drinking soy milk and almond milk bc it's a trend, i'm gonna put in regular milk teehee" like BRUH
Nothing to say, I just wanted to give you a big virtual hug^^ I got diagnosed at age 15 and it was so frustrating not knowing what’s wrong with me. I hope you get all your questions answered. Big hugs
I feel like you're psyching yourself out here. If you're certain that you will display harmful behaviors when confronted with stimuli, that's liable to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Shrinks don't have an incentive to reject a diagnosis that presents itself. (If anything, the economic incentives are to the contrary-- more diagnoses = more treatment = more billing.) Just be honest and forthright and you'll be fine.
@@modusvivendi2 Different countries have different healthcare systems, so I'm sure it varies. But in the US, your second point is absolutely false. I live in the US, and I have to try to get re-tested (probably out of pocket, because insurance only pays for that sort of thing once every 4 years or so), because I was sent to a Psychiatrist for autism and adhd testing on the recommendation of TWO different licensed therapists who are more or less 100% sure that I'm autistic, but don't technically specialize in autism and adhd diagnoses, so can't officially give me the diagnosis we all know I need. He wouldn't diagnose me, even after 6-8 HOURS of testing, during which I was stimming almost constantly and had multiple meltdowns because I was getting so tired and overstimulated, and answered yes to almost every single point on the sensory processing disorder questionnaire I was given. His reasoning? "There's a reason we can only bill for 5 things, you know, and you already have five existing documented diagnoses. Some times people with a high degree of intelligence just go looking for problems. When the reality is that the vast majority of people with autism have an average or below average IQ." All of those existing diagnoses that he just decided to confirm and move on because he couldn't be paid for more than that? Things that are either commonly comorbid with autism, or that are commonly misdiagnosed in autistic women. He DID ask me if I'd ever had occupational therapy for the sensory issues, though... you know, that thing that it's almost impossible to get in the US as an adult, or even as a child without and official diagnosis. Some practitioners care more than others, or are more up to date on recent research and studies, I'm sure. So anyone's mileage may very based on who's office they wind up stepping into. But the sad truth is that honesty is NOT all that's required.
@@fujo_cat Please read the original post more carefully. The person clearly states that they are not currently suffering those meltdowns. If you are, then you are in an entirely different situation.
The way the site said ABA will teach kids skill reminds me of parents seeing their kid finally showing affection by hugging after going through ABA and assume the therapy taught their kids empathy because they believe physical affection is the only sign that someone has empathy
Sorry for ranting about terminology, but hugging is a sign of sympathy (making someone else feel better through common behavior), not empathy (feeling the same emotion as someone else). Hugging's a bit of an analytical dog's breakfast because it can cause sensory overstimulation. But in general I don't think autistic people typically suffer from a deficit of sympathy. If I know that Jane is sad, I will (assuming I don't hate her for some reason) try to make her feel better, because I'm not a monster. What I'm not so good at is correctly figuring out that Jane is sad in the first place.
@@modusvivendi2 i definitely agree with what you said about autistic people and sympathy! many people seem to have the idea that autistic people do not experience sympathy or empathy, and while this obviously is true for some autistics, i don't think it is inherently an autistic trait. I know of many more autistic people who experience average amounts of sympathy/empathy, or even more, than i do people who experience less than average. I think people think that we don't experience sympathy/empathy because often times we don't portray our sympathy/empathy in a "normal" (neurotypical) way. sorry that was a lot lol
its annoys me so much that neurotypical people will often assume an autistic person doesn't feel empathy just because we often show it the same way they do. I personally experience more empathy than the average person, and so do many other autistics, but i am very bad at showing it, and so some might assume that I don't actually feel empathy.
@@krose2005 Autism is definitely characterized by a lack of cognitive empathy, i.e. difficulty understanding what another person is thinking at a given time. The issue is that when psychologists (using the term empathy correctly) say that autistic people "lack empathy," the general public (using the term in its incorrect, popular sense) understands that to mean that autistic people are selfish jerks. Which is untrue. I think "empathy" is as clinically useless as "idiot," "imbecile" or "moron" at this point (yes, once upon a time all of those were medical terms!) because any use of it invariably sweeps in unintended connotations. A less confusing way to say it is that autistic people have deficits in understanding agency, or theory-of-mind.
Same. Except I actually cracked. And I got an autism diagnosis thanks to this girl in the video here. Well, it definitely explained why I was so strange, and why my parents spanked me for the things I couldn't control 🤔
Behaviourism is when you recognise that your parents behavior, taking you to the supermarket, is a problem and so you give negative feedback, lying on the floor and screaming. Once you successfully get your parents to associate their behavior with the negative response you'll be able to train them to behave more appropriately. Useful advice for all toddlers out there!
Behavioral therapy in children is literally just parents saying "ah yes, this one behavior you, my child, have in this present moment with me annoys me in some way, so I will beat you or draw it out of you in some other way in order to make me, your parent, comfortable in this present moment", regardless of what kind of emotional and/or attachment issues their child might develop as an adult. The amount of crying children I've seen in my life beind handled by emotionally immature parents who would rather berate or beat their child in public (usually in supermarkets) in order to not be embarrassed, I guess, instead of trying to figure out why their child is crying in the first place.
The supermarket example is great because like you said there's embaresment attached to it. Even if they are great parents in private, it's essentially encouraging masking at an early age. As an adult who needs to function in society I don't think masking is necessary either "good" or "bad", but I feel like we shouldn't be teaching children the lesson "you're not allowed to express yourself in public because that's embarrassing" (that is, if they understand why thier behavior is being punished in the first place)
I'd get smacked around enough at home that all my parents would have to say is "if you don't stop (singing, dancing, crying - whatever was annoying/embarrassing them) I'm going to give you something to cry about!!!" just loud enough for me to hear it and I'd shut down completely in fear. I find children screaming in public very triggering (not blaming the kids) because I fully expect the parents to backhand them across the face or threaten to kill them, like my parents always did. The only thing my parents taught me was that you cannot trust any humans. Decades of therapy hasn't helped one bit, I never feel safe.
Nah. It's more like finding out why autistic kids scream, scratch their eyes out, bite people, eat markers, and run out into busy streets, then with said data, teach functional communication based on why they are doing those behaviors so they can get what they want without hurting themselves or others.
This is what bothers me so much about research surrounding ABA therapy. The research which suggests that it "works" only focuses on the behavior of the child, but it pretty much never analyzes the mental health or wellbeing of them. When research such as correlations between PTSD and ABA therapy are revealed, instead of investigating them further, proponents of ABA will instead dismiss them entirely.
... because there are no scientific, peer reviewed articles showing a direct link between ABA and PTSD. ABA has changed, read up "A Perspective on today's ABA" by Dr Greg Hanley
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanks There is indeed a peer-reviewed research article from 2018 which demonstrates a significant correlation between exposure to ABA therapy and symptoms of PTSD. I would provide the DOI, but it keeps getting caught in the TH-cam spam filter. The title is "Evidence of increased PTSD symptoms in autistics exposed to applied behavior analysis". This is a correlation that has been established, and whether or not there is a causal link has yet to be established. However, if a causal link does indeed exist, it does not necessarily have to be a direct link in order for it to be meaningful. For example, college education can increase the wages of a person who receives a degree, but it works via an indirect process. A college education allows for an individual to obtain a job which pays more, and the job itself is what causes the increased wages. Still a causal relationship, despite being an indirect method. The fact that the ABA therapy industry has dismissed these findings rather than investigating further to determine whether or not a causal relationship might exist is highly concerning, especially since research into ABA therapy by the ABA therapy industry focuses almost exclusively on behavioral components of change rather than cognitive components. Modern ABA therapy may omit harsh punishments that previous forms of ABA therapy used, but that does not mean that aversive training is not still used (e.g., negative punishment). Furthermore, the premise of ABA therapy is flawed; it rewards behaviors on the ground of extrinsic motivation, and results are usually only noticed after intense periods of exposure to ABA therapy (sometimes around 40 hours a week). This is akin to a full-time job to a child who may already have to commit a significant amount of time to school, leaving little time for other activities such as socialization, playing, exercise, etc. There are a whole host of issues with ABA therapy, but the sheer amount of time that a child has to commit to it for any noticeable results to be apparent is alone terrible for the child. And this is ultimately for the purpose of trying to "fix" behaviors that are not inherently problematic, with the exception of those that involve self harm or the harm of others. And in general, extrinsic motivation often reduces the desire for an individual to intrinsically practice a certain behavior or activity, which could backfire in the long-term if they are being trained to suppress basic components of their neurology. I think if a particular ABA program has strayed so far from the original purpose and no longer employs the practices that it used to, then they should change the name for the sake of the autistic community but also the LGBTQ+ community, seeing as this practice was originally created by the same person who created conversion therapy for gay people. Therapy can be good for many people, autistic people especially, but the nature of that therapy and the goals it seeks to achieve are important. Helping autistic people manage stress, changing environments, overstimulating environments, and finding ways to socialize can be great goals of therapy. But teaching autistic kids that they need to sit a certain way, remain still all the time, make eye contact, etc -- those are just social norms, not behaviors that are intrinsically good for them. It is the expectation that autistic kids are inherently broken and need to be "fixed", which is simply wrong. Many autistic people have unique childhoods and could use therapy, but many of us simply grow from authentic life experience. Others may need extra support, but that does not mean that they need to be trained or sat in a room for 20-40 hours a week about proper etiquette.
@Jenno Syde 🏳️⚧️ I haven't read all of what you said yet, but I tip my hat to you for being professional and providing peer reviewed articles to discuss. However, I am familiar with that study by Kupferstein. I have thoroughly read over it and I agree that ABA can do better... but Kupferstein's method had a lot of holes in it. She used an online survey to make her point. How can you demonstrate experimental control with an online survey? These concerns and more are addressed in the article "Evaluating Kupferstein's claims of the relationship of behavioral intervention to PTSS for individuals with autism" by Leaf et al. (2018). A few other red flags I noticed, she didn't explain how she recruited her sample size. She could have been Cherry picking to support her agenda. It is also nearly impossible to show that PTSD was a direct consequence of ABA. There are so many other extraneous factors which might cause PTSD outside of the ABA setting. And what about the non vocal kids who cannot get on the internet to voice their opinion? The kids who used to gouge their eyes out and smash their heads in... they were saved by ABA. Where are their stories? Where are their voices? It's just kind of strange that there are literally thousands of peer reviewed articles in favor of ABA showing its effectiveness... then here comes Kupferstein's online survey. Not the most scientific way to demonstrate anything. We can learn from it, sure. But kinda crazy that this might be one of the few, if not only, attempts to refute the science of ABA.....
I've definitely been humiliated several times by adults when I was a child and that hurt my self-esteem so much! It's also probably why I developed social anxiety from such a young age...
“We know that by letting the child cry it out loud and self-soothe it works … but not without causing a bunch of other issues that cannot be repressed forever and will come to the surface” I felt that and it happened now that I’m a mama.
Some comments have already addressed this but I’m gonna drop this here anyway in case someone missed them. Positive reinforcement doesn’t always equal “good” and negative reinforcement doesn’t always equal “bad.” You can have positive punishment and negative reward. In conditioning, positive means additive, negative means subtractive. When I let my dog out of the kennel after she sits and holds position, that’s a negative reward because I subtracted the crate. A negative punishment would be taking away your teen’s phone or something else they like as a consequence. Spanking is an example of “positive” punishment because you are adding physical pain. When you stop it’s a negative reward. Putting a sticker on a chore chart is an example of positive reward.
Okay I get it but it sounds confusing since I thought positive and negative were used to describe the reaction by the person giving or taking away something.
@@jclyntoledo TOTALLY understandable! Psychology makes everything more complicated. It's definitely confusing for folks that haven't been exposed to this language. We're always taught that positive=adding something, negative=taking something away. Reinforcement refers to INCREASING a desired behavior, while punishment refers to DECREASING an "undesired" behavior.
I hate how to get a disorder diagnosis the questions are so based on behaviour, when going through my autism assessment i was so unsure on how to respond because i wasn't sure if this behaviour i have is what the question asks and i always needed to think of the meaning behind all the behaviours asked like "do you have hard time ___" It's really from the perspectice of an outside and not about the person themselves because what goes through your head doesn't always reflect how people will assume of your behaviour....For exemple when i have trouble understanding other people's emotions i might end up saying things that will hurt but i'm not aware of it, but apparently this will be seen as being blunt when for me it's just normal so when i'm asked if i'm blunt when i say things i'm not sure--
I 100% agree. Similarly, when I was going through one of the worst times of my life I went to see a psychologist and he gave me a questionaire for depression and anxiety. There were questions like "do you find yourself lightheaded constantly, having headaches, very hungry or with no apetite, and to a lot of those I said yes. But it wasn't depression/anxiety, it was because I had a crippling eating disorder and I wasn't eating enough
I got diagnosed with MDD when I was 19. I’m so grateful I had my mom there to help me with the written assessment because I had no idea I had certain behaviors that came off as “untypical”. She helped me realize that some things that I would put as “doesn’t do that” because they were such normal behaviors for me was actually a “definitely does that.. a lot” type of answer. Ex: I would’ve put down a no for hyper-fixation, but she told me I most definitely have it. I know I would have a hard time doing an assessment by myself cause most of what I do seems to be done without me consciously knowing I’m doing it. It’s practically instinctive.
Omgosh, yes! This is how I felt when I finally went in to get diagnosed with ADHD. I realized all the questions seemed vague and like you said it was based on behaviors that ppl would see. A lot of stuff I had worked on so as an adult who was 30 I didn't interrupt up or space out when ppl talked. I had coping mechanisms to prevent that but it didn't mean it wasn't hard to sit through a long winded story or lecture. It meant I had to repeat stuff in my head a lot, make lots of mental notes or write stuff down. It also depended on how detailed the story was in the convo and how fast they spoke and how much my executive dysfunction was showing up that day. And the little things like being forgetful or losing things. I have a system I have to follow that would eliminate this issue.
From an autistic perspective, behaviorism is frustrating. So many challenges autistic people face can be addressed by changing aspects of the environment. At its most expressed behaviorism is used to justify abusive treatment.
@@gislannaepstein8582 You can improve yourself to a certain degree but there are many behaviours that are not harmful and require nothing to be changed at all except the judgemental mind of some people because they can't comprehend the fact that other brains can be wired differently.
@@gislannaepstein8582 what people don't realize is that in mental health struggles EVERYTHING ELSE BUT YOU can be one of the biggest influences on your mental health so yes, even tho it sounds paradoxical, it is the most important thing. not only in autism. for example one important step would be to kick toxic people like you out of my life. people need to realize that they do not have to tolerate every kind of behavior towards them. boundaries.
@@gislannaepstein8582 Yes, that is the idea of reasonable accommodations for disabilities, as enshrined in law in America and Europe and as recognised by the UN convention on the rights of people with disabilities. Would you demand that mobility-impaired people be forced to go through extremely painful and traumatizing surgeries to slightly improve their ability to walk before they're allowed to get any rights, rather than providing them with wheelchairs and ramps? It's the exact same thing, but for some reason with autism we expect autistic people to "overcome" their disabilities (which is impossible, by the way, autistic brains are literally anatomically different from neurotypical people's) rather than making any accommodations. This mindset is exactly why the autistic mental illness and suicide rate is so high.
first impression: i have never even heard abt behaviorism??? but i’m gonna watch this after watching: wow. jesus. i… am realizing my therapist when i was a kid entirely did behaviorism and i only masked my anxiety so i could be brave enough to be dropped off with everyone else so i could get a chocolate bar
When I hear “behaviorism” I always thing of A Clockwork Orange or 1984 and similar disturbing dystopian novels. I know A Clockwork Orange was written in direct criticism of certain ideas in behaviorism.
Lol. How so? Do you know that behaviorism focuses on operant behavior? And wasn't the convict in Clockwork Orange subjected to a stimulus- stimulus pairing procedure using reflexive (or respondent) conditioning to create an association between certain behaviors and feeling ill? So, what you're saying is that a clockwork Orange was NOT using methods of behaviorism, and that you just made that up for attention without understanding a single thing you were talking about? Maybe you can send me where I can find this "knowing" the movie was in direct criticism of behaviorism.
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanksA dramatic form of aversion therapy is used in A Clockwork Orange. Aversion therapy is a type of behavioral therapy. All behavioral therapies are based upon or at least assumes some basic ideas of behaviorism. My psych teacher in high school was the one who told us A Clockwork Orange and other dystopian novels were meant to criticize certain aspects of behaviorism. She implied that aversion therapy fell under the umbrella of behaviorism. So take it up with her. Also, operant conditioning is not the only type of conditioning that behaviorism covers. It also covers respondent/classical conditioning, according to Google. An example given of therapy that uses classical conditioning? Aversion therapy. ALSO, someone getting something factually wrong on the internet doesn’t mean they did it maliciously for attention. Sometimes people make mistakes. Instead of being a ahole just clearly explain the “mistake” and move on..
You should do a video on the “pathogizing” of every single behavior in autism. If you have a developmental disability if any kind you go from a person who sometimes gets upset to “a fighter.” If you can’t communicate with your words and sometimes lash out with biting, you’re now “a biter.” Normal behaviors like getting angry and storming off is called “a runner.” Then this escalates to every little thing they do being added to the file of who they are. Completely normal reactions are pointed to some part of their disability. I can’t just enjoy my preferred activities - I’m hyper focusing and need to be redirected in an hour in otherwise I’ll sit there all night. Like an adult can’t possibly get into a project and work on it throughout the night. I know you could find 100 other ways we turn everything into an issue. It’s not that I like an item - it’s my preferred item and used as a way to get me to do something. It’s not that I just want to hug those I care for - I have boundary issues. So I’m and so forth. I think another long form video like this would be awesome. Great video!!
These are all awful, but I especially hate the patholigizing of "running away" like being able to recognize when your limits have been reached, and removing yourself from an overwhelming situation is somehow bad? If they're doing it in a "childish way" it's likely because they don't have the emotional energy left to hold composure, I just don't understand the complete lack of empathy these people have for autistics...
The autistic community tends to do this too online…not everything someone does is because they’re autistic. My humming might be a stim or it might be because I have a song stuck in my head.
I had a very late diagnosis at age 20, I was treated with ABA as that's the standard method of care for autistic people, but since I'm in Brazil, I had access to a multidisciplinary team with a speech therapist to help me with my stuttering and general shyness, an occupational therapist to help me overcome some social situations like ordering food, talking on the phone, etc. and a psychologist with a focus on autistic people. I'm thankful the ABA approach I was presented focused more on helping me overcome the hurdles I could overcome without forcing me to do things that were exceedingly difficult. I felt respected at all times. The behaviourist model has helped me immensely, it helped cure my anorexia, depression and other comorbities I developed due to the undiagnosed autism. Even though it has helped me, I can see why it can be wielded as a weapon against autistic children.
I love your post. I just got diagnosed at 42. So would that be very very very very late lol. It is nice to hear the positive side of ABA. When I was a kid Autism wasn't widely known. I to had all the same therapies from 10 to 16 (1990-1996). Not Autism based but still the same. It made me who I am and I wouldn't change it. No regrets.
@@CristalianaIvor I believe there are different types of ABA. The warning of so is very important. The hands on dog training types are on the bad side. I will say ABA is needed when no control is harmful. Like in my case and now in me son's case. We just have to advocate for the right type.
@@KPaul7 tbh I feel the whole concept of ABA is extemely flawed and while there are some harmful behaviors of autistic people that definitely need addressing - I still think ABA is superfluous. and I think having "good" ABA just muddles the waters too much because people then don't understand that there is an abusive type of ABA Just abolish ABA fully and use techniques that are actually scientificaly proven to be useful. for example in behavioral therapy there is Cognitive Behavior Therapy which is for example what I do with my therapist to address my depression. unlike ABA the focus is not soley on behaviors
Yes!! This!! Behavioral Psychology seems to reverse the cause and the effect. It observes behavior and then labels it. "This is autistic." "This is OCD." etc. And then treats that label as having explanatory value when it's only descriptive. "Why do they act so weird?" "Well, they're autistic." No. It was determined that they're autistic on the basis of the behaviors you're describing as weird. Doesn't go deeper into understanding what motivates that behavior in the first place and keeps people ignorant and confused.
"I'm depressed because I have depression. I have depression because I'm depressed". And if that doesn't work, they put the "chemical imbalance" thing. The reason why people believe in a "chemical imbalance" is because "the drugs work". Yes, and when I get drunk, I get drunk :D And, sometimes, I'm more happy while drunk and, other times, more sad :( Same with any other drug... But, of course, "antidepressant" is catchy, right? Remember when they changed the name of the orcas because it made people hate them more? Words are powerful. Why are "depression" and "suicidal thoughts" listed as "side effects"/adverse effects of antidepressants? "Side effects" doesn't mean "less common", it just means "unwanted". The "chemical imbalance" theory is even more false than the "alpha wolf" theory... If you know the story behind the "alpha wolf" theory, you know what I mean... Pd: Sorry for the rant...
@@BL-sd2qw i'm really happy that Dr. K was actually honest with this , as a psychiatrist himself. he basically just said that "we dont know why antidepressants work".
This was wrote before watching the video: When I was 17-19 I went to college to get a degree on Psychology so all I know about behaviorism is from that time period. They taught me all about "Condicionamiento clásico y operante" and "reforzadores y castigos" (I have no clue what the terms in English are). I honestly hate it because, as its name says, it's only focused on changing a behavior without actually caring about what is causing that behavior. Also, the fact that they said "well it works for dogs so why don't we apply it to humans?" it's... concerning to say the least. Humans are not dogs. Humans are complex and bad behavior is usually not the problem, but the result of a real problem (emotional issues, maybe a neurodivergency, lack of impulse control, etc). The conditioning method used in behaviorism fails to address all those underlying issues. The person is not learning why their behavior is bad or how to better regulate themselves and their emotions to prevent that behavior to happen and those things are the most important things because having that knowledge one can then apply it to other similar situations. So, basically, I find it stupid and useless at best and extremely harmful at worst because it can turn you into a robot that just suppresses their emotions and responds to orders and doesn't know how to cope with things or regulate itself. This was wrote after watching the video: Haha. I almost forgot to write my after-thoughts. I agree with everything you said, I just wanted to add one thing. You're using the terms positive and negative reinforcement wrong. When referring to this topic positive does not mean good and negative does not mean bad. In Psichology, a positive thing is something that it's added to your experience, and a negative thing it's something that's taken out from your experience. A good example of this is what we call positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Hallucinations are a positive symptom because it's something that gets added to your life because of the disorder. Hallucinations are not good. That's all my thoughts. I deeply admire you for advocating for neurodiversity and talking openly about your thoughts, experiences and opinions. Keep doing what you do. 💜
Wow, very interesting and thanks for making the point about positive/negative reinforcement. I was familiar with the same concept as far as positive and negative rights in a constitutional context, but haven't realized that psychology uses the terms in a similar way as well. I actually think that's the way we should use the terms more often than not, the additive/reductive concept seems more useful and descriptive of reality than to use the good/bad concept of what positive/negative means.
Ooh, I like the before and after approach! Thanks for your comment! (I just realized Paige suggested to do this, but I still appreciate your perspective!) Also, contextualizing from the Spanish I do know as well as the topic, I do believe the first term in English is "classical and operant conditioning". I'd have to look up the second term. Perhaps "reinforcements and punishments"? (I just looked up castigo, and that is indeed punishment)
@@TheCloverAffiliate12 Yes, your translations are correct! I’m a final year PhD student in psychology and I’m also semi-fluent/conversant in Spanish (I got my undergraduate minors in Spanish, although it’s I *really* rusty since I haven’t practiced in ages 😬).
@@jamiegdubois Interesting. I'm pretty fluent in English, but sometimes with terms of this kind the words used are not the same Like with stimming. The word in Spanish doesn't exist. The closest to it is "estereotipia" which would mean stereotyped movements. And stimming is more like "the act of self stimulating your senses"
I feel like this is extremely accurate, the way I was raised definitely makes me believe that being upset just makes people hate me. So I hide it especially from my parents, I just feel ignored, and like no one not even my partner cares about me being upset. As a kid if I cried I was called selfish, disrespectful, and told I just wanted attention, or that something was wrong with me🤷🏽♀️yea that caused a lot of damage
I’ve had trouble keeping friendships pretty much all my life, so last year I’d decided that I want to work on that. I started pushing myself to meet people and it had caused me a lot of stress. Recently I realized that I probably have avpd and that’s what causes the problems. So I went to see a therapist, hoping that she’ll listen to what I think, go through my experiences and emotions and give me some feedback and tips. I really wanted her to help me change how I think. What she did was listen to me for 3 sessions and the fourth session she told me that “I haven’t made much progress in the time of me seeing her” and told me I need to work on doing stuff I’m afraid of doing. She wasn’t wrong but what she(and behaviorism in general, as you were saying) doesn’t understand is that the problem is much deeper. I had tried to change my behavior but it only caused me suffering as I still had my disordered thoughts and perspective.
That sounds like a very demoralizing experience, I'm sorry. I hope you find a healthy way forward, at your own pace. If you're still open to therapy, and it's accesible to you, I definitely encourage it (with a therapist that works with you, not... on you.).
I'm surprised that therapist didn't use CBT as it's a very common style of therapy that would address thoughts and how that influences actions. Although I don't think it's 100% useful since for some ppl it's the feeling that remains.
it doesn't sound like the therapist did any psychoeducation at all? they're supposed to teach you how to work with your thoughts and feelings not just tell you what your problems are.
Coincidentally, I'm reading a book at the moment, its English title is "Humankind: A new history of human nature", in which Dutch author Rutgar Bergman also shortly writes about behaviourism. The main topic of his book is him arguing that humans are inherently good, and he spends many pages describing why people do bad things at all. Most of his arguments condense to the fact that people are being taught that other people are selfish and bad - which, of course, shapes relationships and turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. He also explains that behaviourism is a consequence of capitalism (what else? most ableism is rooted in capitalism) and further that, what I find really interesting but pretty sad at the same time, it is also rooted in the believe that people are inherently bad, lazy, cannot motivate themselves and need motivation = reinforcement from the outside. You said it yourself, behaviourism is scientifically and ethically wrong. When I watched your video I had to think about Stanley Kubrick's film (probably a fellow autistic person!) "A Clockwork Orange", which poses the question if it is better if people are able to choose subjectively "bad" behaviour, or if they should be so manipulated as not to be able to choose anything else than displaying good behaviour. This might be a movie that's interesting for you, if you don't know it already *special interest off* Anyways, thanks for the video and explaining the issues of behaviourism in depth!
At the end of the video I was like... Oh, this is why I'm a 30 year old unhappy human. I was raised purely though behaviorism by my parents and even now I even struggle to do things I enjoy because I'm not sure they please everyone around me. Wow!
I was too (they’re not bad people, they just used bad methodology), and this video made me realize “Maybe this is why I think everything is my fault because something is wrong with me. It’s been subconsciously told to me since day one. I was left with more questions than answers, so I had no choice but to assume that everything was my fault because I am broken and need to be fixed.”
Everyone's doing their best, I'm not blaming my parents. However, knowing the source of some of one's unhappiness is pretty useful when trying to deal with it
@@Stfguac I agree it's not blaming but you can awknowledge where the issue came from and now you can use that info to deconstruct those schemas and unhelpful coping mechanisms.
I was an ABA "behavior technician" for about a year. I had no background in working with kids, psychology, or autism, but I was desperate for a job (this was during covid) and it seemed like a good way to help people. I did no research into the position before I applied (I had applied to literally over 100 jobs at this point). Looking back, I probably shouldn't have been hired, but they had a very high turnover rate there (working 10 hour days in an ABA clinic will do that to you). I was not in a good place mentally (like besides making money to survive my two biggest goals were to eat and sleep sustainably), and the more I "dethawed" from my depression the more awareness I had of what I was doing, what behaviorism was, and the more I questioned it the more I was dissatisfied with it. It was people like Paige, everyone in the comments, and autism self-advocacy groups that convinced me that ABA was bad and why and how there were better ways to help other people. I think the two biggest things that got me into that work and kept me there was the "officialness" of an established clinic, all this medical stuff, and people with a lot of education in behaviorism that I didn't have assuring me that it was okay, the "we don't do ABA like that here" thing, and the kids seeming happy in the moment. I think there was also some element of "it happened to me and I turned out fine" going on too, since I was diagnosed with autism as an adult and by that point in my life suffering in silence to conform to demands was what I learned to do to survive and "function" in my family. Above all, the focus on respecting feelings and thoughts more than just controlling what you see someone doing is what promotes kindness, empathy, and understanding for others and within yourself, and that's what's the most important. I think the whole "big emotions in a little body" thing is true, and I wish kids knew that that feeling happens to adults also, and that more adults understand that kids shouldn't get in trouble or feel bad for having big emotions and struggling to deal with that.
No no, you really should make this. I’ve thought about this a lot and I’m so glad you’re making something about this. I know it like the back of my hand, how disgusting and horrid it is, and how it’s hurt so many people, including myself. I’ll sit back and let you unveil it. You have my sincerest gratitude
Nice way to discredit an argument by calling it disgusting and horrible without showing why. Or how it hurt so many people . You expect people to buy into your lack of argument. lazy and dishonest
especially for a baby she didn't go super in depth with that but it has been scientifically investigated and found out that "letting your kid cry" will sustainably ruin their ability to trust people and form deep and meaningful relationships with people. which is good, when you are a n*zi dictator and want to raise a bunch of robots you can use in your wars I am not using hyperbole here: this kind of rhetoric comes right out of n*zi times there was a German "Psychologist" called Haarer who wrote a book about how to raise children and a big part of the book is about not "coddling" the child. ie. don't show affection and let it cry. why is that bad for a baby? a baby is not able to care for themselves. not having anyone take care of the baby means the baby thinks it is dyeing. when your baby stops crying after you ignored them it means that your baby thinks it is not worth anything and that nobody cares if they died. therefore it stops crying. it can happen that the baby will vomit all over on themselves out of fear of death. such books say that this is normal and has to be ignored. if people don't realize how fucked up all of that is, I can't help them lol
As a speech-language pathologist, ABA is unfortunately rampant in the field. I was lucky enough to learn from amazing and kind professors who have a very different ideology. Our motto was always if you want to have a joint experience, join in their joy, don't force them into yours. It's nice to hear that we were on the right track from someone who understands our clients' perspectives! I'd love to hear your perspective on more developmental approaches like DIR-Floortime!
Had a job as a behavioral Technician. I also have a bachelors in psychology, and was just looking for a job to get into something psych. related, and focused helping others. I always thought behaviorism was limited in theory on understanding humans in general. I quit after day two of training because I felt like I was expected to treat a person like I would with training a dog with making “demands” of the client (give me the blue maker, touch your nose), and them “working” for the rewards ( a snack, iPad time). Also the added making them physically perform a target behavior even if they don’t want too (for example touch the ball) to teach what a ball is. I fail to see why touching the ball helps teach it’s a ball especially by force? Seems more like it’s teaching compliance. It didn’t sit well with me, and I asked a lot of questions like if you could just let them not complete it (not force touching the ball), but that’s not allowed. It is noted that ABA has a high success rate etc. but honestly I think that’s because they use very authoritative tactics that don’t respect the clients full bodily autonomy and their mental health in how it’s structured. We wouldn’t teach neurotypicals this way. So, why is it ok for neurodivergents to be taught this way in a therapy treatment?
Watched the video, and it just reinforced what I was already feeling/thinking. Also her mentioning training dogs is more complex made me laugh, but also felt sad given this is used so widely for ASD treatment. 😓
I can relate to your feelings. I can say from experience that teaching students with autism is different from teaching those who are not. I felt the same way when I was told to reward my students with candy. It took everything within me to give them candy for desired behaviors. With these students, the relationships are not built as soon as you meet them. You have to find something that interest them and get them to progress using those interest. Yes, it does feel like you are training a dog. 😢 I support certain ABA strategies not all. That’s not to say I don’t love each individual student. ❤Behaviorism is real. It is not complete in of itself but it cannot be negated.
I'm a first year psych student. I started learning the basics of behaviorism this semester and it really rubbed me the wrong way right from the beginning. You articulated so well a lot of the issues that I have with it and couldn't put into words. I also hadn't made the connection that a lot of the boomer teachings that fucked us up are rooted in behaviorism or similar thinking. Very important video, thank you!
"You're not professionals, stop talking about ABA without knowing what it's about." Susan, (or whatever the name is of whoever is saying that bs) we are indeed not professionals. We are not performing ABA or other therapies. BUT, we are the ones receiving ABA
This is difficult for me because I always feel like how I feel/act is motivated by a reason, but most of the time when I try to tell someone why I'm acting or feeling this way, what happened, etc... I feel talked OVER when they refuse to listen and bring it back to how I acted "out of line" or in a way they don't like. So I have decades of unresolved trauma feeding itself, showing it's face again and again when I have big emotions and ON TOP of said emotions, there's also a fear I'll be pushed away, rejected or abandoned for being "bad", because the other party can not FEEL my intense feelings or listen to WHY they occurred.
this is what I'm seeing currently in my masters degree in psychopedagogy, the teachers ask for essays already implying behaviorism is the right option, the most beneficial and up to date teaching style, your video will help me a lot to argue back
THANK YOU! This gets to the root of why the autistic community is against all ABA, even "new ABA." Because even if the implementation details are changed, ABA is still behaviorism. Maybe people would be less vulnerable to the new ABA argument if we talk more about the problems with behaviorism.
QuinoaRat, ABA is a part of a bigger picture, it is part of Capitalism and behaviourists are great capitalists. Even if we removed behaviourism from the equation we would still have autism and capitalism, it's called the "Autism Industrial Complex". Look at how charities use Autism Awareness to gain additional donations and money, and not to help autistic people.
You're a genuious, and my atypical brain LOVES the way you explain things. I feel so much more aware of the world after watching your videos. Thank you! You're excellent!
Yeah the part you brought up about the DSM 5 blew my mind honestly. I never even considered that they focus so much on external appearance of symptoms in the diagnostic process!!!! That really explains why soooooo many people get misdiagnosed based on similar behavioral patterns across diagnoses, because they all have different roots and reasons "why" the actions occur in the first place.
***there is a slight error starting at 4:00 where when you say negative reinforcement when you really mean positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is taking away something the animal or person does not like to encourage the behaviour, positive punishment is adding something they don’t like to discourage the behaviour. The quadrants of training were all confused throughout the whole video, and not all of the info was accurate though I still understand the gist your points. *edit, time stamp error
The easiest way for me to remember it is that reinforcement is ALWAYS a reward and punishment is...punishment lol. Negative (-) means take something away and positive (+) means add something. So you either +add or -remove something... To reward/reinforce or punish a behavior No reinforcement (reward) for a kid will ever be a spanking. I wish they had just named them more clearly though. This scheme is confusing even for people who use it kind of often. It makes it meaningless when people say "negative reinforcement," no one knows for sure what they mean without asking. I have a hard time spitting out which one i mean in spoken conversations. (i do not endorse behaviorist manipulation but it does come up)
Seems like just semantics because you can always reframe the event - e.g. electrocuting a rat is positive punishment to discourage stepping on a button but it is also negative reinforcement to reinforce not stepping on the button (with the reward of not being shocked)
Negative reinforcement is actually taking something away. Spanking is a positive punishment. A negative punishment would be taking something pleasant away.
Negative punishment is not “taking something pleasant away” it is taking away something from the environment that leads to a reduction in behavior. An example could be moving a toy out of eyesight so that the child stops asking for the toy. Negative reinforcement is taking something out of the environment in order to increase a behavior. So an example could be taking a loud sound out of the environment in order to increase one’s ability to pay attention. Negative does not mean bad, it is just referring to stimuli/environment
My issue with behaviorism is that it's such a one-dimensional approach and this essay explains its shortcomings and limitations so well. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! I love hearing criticism on psychological theories and interventions because this isn't discussed in undergraduate psychology programs.
I love this video! I was raised on behaviorism and thought that's how I was supposed to parent. I am so very sorry to my oldest that I didn't know any better. Thankfully I learned much better techniques when I had more children. My oldest, now an adult and a parent, is likely on the spectrum and I've vowed to help her get a proper diagnosis.
Sorry for the info dump, animal training is my special interest. Maybe it’ll be interesting for someone reading this to hear a dog trainers scientific perspective on behaviour therapy? 9:17 the baby sleep training example uses learned helplessness. It is a lengthy extinction process whereby a behaviour that was at one point reinforced, is no longer reinforced, therefore resulting in its cessation. Learned helplessness is extremely intrusive and aversive for the learner, and is considered unethical. You are also spot on about the attachment wounds - this happens in all species. And you’re also spot on about certain behaviours being indicative of needs. Behaviours that indicate needs should never be put on extinction as this removes the learner’s agency and ability to communicate. 14:40 note on terminology, you did a great job of conveying the essence of operant conditioning here, but to clarify for anyone reading: Positive reinforcement - adding something desirable to increase a behaviour (like giving a cookie) Negative reinforcement - removing something undesirable to increase a behaviour (like removing pressure) Negative punishment - removing something desirable to decrease a behaviour (like taking away allowance) Positive punishment - adding something undesirable to decrease a behaviour (like shouting) And yes you’re right, classical conditioning always happens at the same time as operant conditioning. And yes, honestly I feel like you understand this a lot better than most dog trainers - aversive methods (negative reinforcement, extinction, and negative & positive punishment) can and do lead to the learner experiencing negative emotions and displaying more maladaptive behaviours. It’s like whack a mole. 21:16 if we were to take a least intrusive, minimally aversive approach to Jennifer, we would rule out medical issues (anxiety counts as a medical issue), then, you got it, make sure she knows what it feels like when her bladder is full, what to do when she needs to pee, and how to access a toilet. We could even involve her teacher in the behaviour modification process by asking them to schedule in an extra bathroom break for Jennifer. There’s an infinite ways we could manage her environment to set her up for success. The issue would likely resolve before we even need to progress to using positive reinforcement. 25:59 you’re right - autism cannot be diagnosed by behaviour. Masking is a thing, I have done it for almost 24 years. It’s about your internal experience. Final thoughts: I was a bit worried you were gonna rip into my special interest and love and life and livelihood but actually I agree with every point you made 😅 Behaviourism does imply a hierarchy, which is shaky morally when you’re working with animals and downright abusive when you’re working with humans. Animal trainers have to get very creative and work hard to minimize this hierarchy and allow our learners to maintain control over their outcomes while still achieving our necessary goals, such as teaching the dog to sniff out a missing person, teaching the cat to consent to bathing, or teaching the hyena at the zoo to open her mouth for a dental exam. When you’re doing behaviour modification you have to be especially creative with your antecedent arrangements, because even using positive reinforcement can be aversive for say, a rescue dog who’s never even been around humans before. The problems you describe with behaviourism are very real and do cause harm. This is why in animal training we have very strict codes of ethics. It disgusts me that such codes of ethics did/do not exist for human behaviour modification, assuming that would even be a necessary approach for humans, given that we have our own species-specific ways of communicating such as talking and listening. Neurodivergent people shouldn’t be made to change their behaviours in order to fit into neuronormative society. We need understanding. We need our needs and differences acknowledged and honoured. That is all, peace ✌️
We might not have asked for this but it was something I didn’t know I needed. How incredibly insightful and thorough! Keep up the amazing work and thanks for all you do.
This video helped me heal a bit of myself that went through behavioral therapy as a child. Kinda like talking about trauma with a friend. Thank you Paige, I needed this.
This is one of the most important videos on the internet right now. I don’t know how anyone can argue it especially after all the evidence of it not working or jump starting some other issues or traumas. Anyway if you want to learn accounting, I would love a tutor lol. You are such a clear soothing communicator that breaks everything down and ties it up in a little bow at the end. Perfection. Thank you for this video and taking the time to educate us while also telling us your opinion 💕
hey Paige, I didn't finish watching the video yet, but on minute 4:04 you said that that was Negative Reinforcement (for the rat being electrocuted), It's actually reinforcing a behavior through Positive Punishment. Negative means REMOVAL of a stimuli, Positive means ADDING a stimuli, Punishment means when its bad, Reward means when it's good. since this comment go a little track I'd like to make some amends. I agree and disagree with Paige on different point's she makes on this video. Paige, if you read this I would love to have a 30 min talk with you if possible to either understand better your point of view or help you understand some of errors I perceived in this video... As we both know misinformation is Harmful and I've seen you correct mistakes before, I know you will be able to see this for what it is and not take it as a personal attack, but on addressing my objections of this video: From my understanding of Behaviorism and what I saw presented in the video, Her understanding of Behaviorism is a ( little wrong, but not enough to matter) understanding of what Behaviorism was 100 years ago, when it started. Lucky science evolves. At one point she strawmen what behaviorism understands as an stimuli (she even mentioned ppl say it is, but ignored it[?]) regarding to hormones and that also applied for brain formation. the Nature part is taken into consideration in behaviorism the way the science is nowadays. Behaviorism also from my understand doesn't pretend to know that the cause of a behaviour is, based on the behaviour. It's the science of observing the behaviour, and stimulus, and linking them together. You only have the picture when you have both, you don't get half of the picture and paint the other half. With that being said, behaviorism is a tool. And as a tool it has jobs it do really well, and there are jobs it should not be attempted to be used in. There is also right ways to use it and wrong ways to use it. "Treating" autism with behaviorism is ridiculous because we don't need to be treated. treating gays with behaviorism is ridiculous because they don't need to be treated. we (and they) need to be accepted and included. Behaviorism doesn't do that. Behaviorism changed behaviour and the autistic person is not the one that needs the change, its the world around that does. changing the autistic person behaviour will cause harm, like in some of the examples she mentioned using a child as example. Altho it is still not the same, as if behaviorism were to be applied correct in those situation (with positive rewards instead of negative rewards of positive or negative punishments) like she did on her correct resolution of the problems (showing the child there is understanding and bringing [though behaviorism, like it or not] trust between the child and parent) changing the child behaviour without causing trauma. But also like she was trying to make the point, but different than with a child [that a lot of times just doesn't know better and DO need guidance] the autistic person usually know what they want, and if this change in behaviour is something THEY want (and not that the world is imposing) if behaviorism is applied correctly, it will be very beneficial for the individual, to achieve the goal THEY want. I already regret making such a huge text on a youtube comment, it's just I'm very passionate about my right to exist as a regular (autistic) person, as well as I know the harm misinformation can make in the world (the biggest reason why autistic person suffer so much), and I don't want this harm to others.
i don't know what behaviorism/behaviourism is but i have a feeling once the concept of it is explained to me it may make me roll my eyes into the back of my skull
Thank you for putting into words something I've been struggling to communicate for a long time now. There's so much going on on the inside that's completely overlooked, this video resonated with me more than anything ever
im really happy about this video! Just want to inform, negative reinforcement is not the same thing as punishment. this is such a helpful video, there’s so much to delve into and research after viewing. much love
This video is cogent and well researched! Thank you for making it and helping us to be more informed. One sort of nit-picky criticism: I'm pretty sure negative reinforcement is not the same as punishment. Negative reinforcement is a behavior reinforcer that takes the form of removing an unpleasant stimulus as a reward rather than introducing a positive stimulus.
Positive reinforcement- here's a cupcake, thanks for being awesome. Negative reinforcement- I'll do that annoying chore for you today, thanks for being awesome. Positive punishment- you must do extra chores today; think about what you've done wrong to deserve this Negative punishment- no Nintendo switch for you today cause of yesterday, you should think about what's wrong with you instead.
I thought this video was awesome and reminded me of a quote from Thich Nhat Nhan, "When you plant lettuce, if it does not grow well, you don’t blame the lettuce. You look for reasons it is not doing well. It may need fertilizer, or more water, or less sun. You never blame the lettuce. Yet if we have problems with our friends or family, we blame the other person. But if we know how to take care of them, they will grow well, like the lettuce. Blaming has no positive effect at all, nor does trying to persuade using reason and argument. That is my experience. No blame, no reasoning, no argument, just understanding. If you understand, and you show that you understand, you can love, and the situation will change.” I agreed so much with your very wise point of view and was reminded for my own parenting. My 3 year old daughter was just diagnosed with high functioning autism. Like you, she is awesome and isn't afraid to show it and I will always celebrate her uniqueness and have a passion to learn more about her, myself and others. It is such a gift to have such a bright and brilliant young lady like you to listen to who knows first hand. Thank you for sharing your kick but thoughts and self with us TH-camrs!
This is amazing, ty so much. I honestly think this is one of the biggest problems with our society rn. and why so many of us are traumatized people pleasers.
Paige that was insightful, and it did help change my mind about behaviorism/behavioral therapy in particular. Your examples were excellent, I’ll be reflecting on those in the coming days I’m confident. I’d like to incorporate similar sounding methods when I become a parent someday in response to whatever challenges my child/children may face. Thank you so much for doing this, for putting the work in. I really appreciate it. Also, your end card video song is fabulous and fun and lovely and I listened to it a few times! 🙌🏼✨💓🙏🏼🔥
This is absolutely fantastic and a lot of what you said I’ve been thinking but haven’t been able to put it into words! The way you talk about it being people pleasing is absolutely spot on, thank you for this I’m going to share it 💪🏻
I worked as a speech pathologist for a while and there was a lot of behaviourism in many of the therapy techniques we were taught. Luckily post-graduating I quickly discovered attachment-informed therapy and and DIR which helped me understand how counter-productive and HARMFUL using a behaviour-based approach actually is! This video was so clear, concise, well presented and extremely entertaining- you're a very talented youtuber
I did my undergrad at a school that emphasizes behaviorism over all other psych theories (lame). I’m also recently diagnosed ASD (slay). Here’s my super long-winded, pre-video take! I knew nothing about behaviorism when I started my undergrad, and I honestly disliked it right away. The whole idea of behaviorism just seems contradictory to the reasons I wanted to go into psych in the first place. I went into psych because I wanted to understand everyone’s unique, complex thought processes and feelings, and help them make positive change from the inside out. Behaviorism just isn’t it for me, never was, even before learning about the use of ABA for autism. I do think behaviorism as a whole may have some useful applications, outside of the context of individual “therapy”. For example, I took a class on behavioral approaches to sustainability, where behavioral principles are used primarily in large-scale settings to promote more environmentally friendly behaviors in the public. The ideas and studies presented in the class seemed ethical and overall really useful. I also took a class on organizational psych where behavioral strategies are used to maximize efficiency in the workplace. The strategies taught in that class honestly seemed a lot more reasonable and pro-employee than most management approaches I tend to hear about irl. But I know pretty much nothing about the business world so don’t take my word for it lol, that was just my overall impression. When it comes down to it though, I barely even view behaviorism as psychology (at least in my mind) and I don’t support ABA clinics. I don’t like the whole practice of using behaviorism as the primary form of treatment for individuals in a therapeutic setting, *especially* for people who are already marginalized, chronically misunderstood, and at a high risk for abuse as is. It just doesn’t make sense to me logically or ethically. To be clear, I never took any classes on ABA for the autistic population. I opted out of the (way too many) practicum and work opportunities for ABA clinics, so I never got a firsthand look at the training that ABA techs go through. I’m definitely glad I stayed away from that realm of things, but I kinda wish I could’ve been a fly on the wall just to see for myself.
I’m studying early childhood development (I want to become a teacher), and one of the perks of my studies is the different pedagogy you learn that people use when teaching children. Behaviourism is definitely the most old-fashioned ways of teaching, since applying it to a classroom setting would mean just talking *at* children and expecting them to copy down what you are saying with no further discussion. I brought this up to my teachers in college and talked to them how behaviourism was a flawed way of teaching children while using my own experiences to justify it. Most of my own time in school was spent following what my teachers said and silently copying it down, and as an autistic child, it was absolute hell. Although some behaviourist methods are useful (such as operant conditioning), it is an outdated approach that sees children as drones and not unique human beings who learn in different ways. Seriously, every other pedagogy is more useful than this style of teaching. What I’m thankful for is the huge push schools now how in more modern approaches like cognitivism, connectivism, humanism and constructivism. These approaches to teaching are giving the new generation a better environment to grow in, since I remember having meltdowns almost every day over school when I was a child. It’s good seeing schools adapt and think of new healthy ways to teach children with. And I hope to see that continue in the near future.
I finally finished watching your video. Here are my 2 cents. Behaviorism is a study of behavior. It is not right or wrong. It is simply a collection of evidence over a period of time. Same as any other field of study. You can see it as a tool, like a hammer. It is not the hammer that is wrong, it is what you do with it. You can bash someone's head with a hammer, or you can build a house. There are two key figures in the field of behaviorism. First and probably the most famous is B.F. Skinner. His approach to behaviorism was very different than the current implementations (which are the faults of the second figure that I will mention next). However, B.F. Skinner wanted to use behaviorism to make significant improvements in education. His ideas were very good, and in my view would have been effective. Using his findings, a few programs were created and were very successful. Due to financial and societal reasons, major improvements in education did not fit well with the western society, so it was put on a back burner, and eventually just forgotten. Second and probably the main character that is at fault for such bad rep of behaviorism today is Ivar Lovaas. This character was mostly a loser and didn't achieve much in his early career, until he discovered that behaviorism can be used to "treat" autsitc children. Most of his studies have been disputed and a lot of his writings are him basking the credit for creating and "successfully" implementing ABA to "treat" autism. If you read any of his publications, you get a picture of a man that has not been blessed with success for most of his life, and one day he just by accident "discovers" this miracle cure that everyone wanted. He boasts about how his practice grew and how amount of people that he supervised exploded. He was mostly concerned with his own fame and fortune at a cost of those that had to endure his treatment. Very unfortunate. The main reason why ABA as it is used today is rejected by an autistic community is because it is being misused. The main culprit that causes damage is unrealistic expectations of parents, drastic psychological state of children when they begin treatment, and financial incentive on the side of the clinic to keep "treating" the patient. It is not the children that should be subjected to ABA. The parents needs to be educated in the foundational behaviorism concepts, so they can be better parents (in case of autistic children, they basically need to be), which will allow them to prevent their children from reaching the extremes when an intervention of some sort becomes absolutely required.
Yes!!!! Thank you! Behavior analysis, based on radical behaviorism, is really the study of behavior, it is a science. It was refreshing to read you view on this! It is so sad that people misuse stuff from this field of knowledge. Because when well used, it can be of such a great help to people. :)
Thank you, sadly the people in this comment section aswell as the creator are not very nuanced and careful concerning their use of language, even some people in the comments who had formal psychology education dont know what they are talking about or are willfully misunderstanding the concepts.
Maybe none asked for it but even before watching I am sure THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF VIDEO THAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR. Just yesterday, I took a look into my Psychology book from my first year of High School. It has stuff written about positive reinforcement and conditioning of first & 2nd degree (not sure if that's the correct term in english, hope you know what I mean) without stopping a SINGLE TIME TO ASK whether this behaviour should be changed, for what reason the behaviour even exists, what the need behind it is and so on. No questions asked, just shown how to change it, without caring a single moment, how those 'tactics' might seriously affect a child in the negative. It really screwed with my mind last night, that THIS is what one is thought in Psychology. The needs of a child get completely overlooked and aren't cared for at all. Nah page, mentally I did absolutely ask for this video last night, so THANK YOU for putting it out here (and at the perfect time too haha)!!
Thank you for speaking on the crying baby scenario. I was that baby. That baby got out of the tall crib but couldn't fall safely to the floor. That baby stood crying and hangjng onto the crib rails, until doing so half asleep. Eventually my mom came in and picked me up. I was raised on this story during my formative years, as a comedy. But nearing 40s soon I see clearly what it was. Now I'm just so thankful that baby survived. 💜 There can be better. This video is so important, thank you.
Thanks for talking about letting your baby cry themselves to sleep it also rlly damages there ability to self regulate and bring down there own anxiety levels because a parent calming a baby actually teaches there nervous system how to calm itself. This should be abuse
From the research I could find, the medical community disagrees. Of course, you do need to check if there is something wrong with the baby, but often babies just will cry when before they fall asleep. I also found several studies stating that there is not behavioral or emotional differences in a child after being left to cry, or having been attended too.
@@isaacgates5859 but in the paper you sent me the emphasis was on the fact that it worked and in the end they don't really know wether the baby is self soothing or in extreme stress that the baby knows no one will respond to
I really loved this video! This was very thorough and logical in how you portrayed the behaviorism approach vs. the cognitive/neuroscientific approach for things, especially with the examples about raising children. It's always kind of been muddy waters for me when thinking about how I'd raise my future kids, but what you detailed made perfect sense to me and perfectly put into words how I'd love to approach parenting! I also didn't think about behaviorism before as such a concrete concept, more as a set of observations, but this video was very informative in the ways it affects the world, so thank you!!
I totally asked for this video, and I'm glad you made it! This pretty much sums up how I feel about behaviorism. I'm so glad I quit that old daycare job I worked at and now I work at a new daycare that's child-led. We like to emphasize that crying is encouraged because it is okay to cry and express your feelings. We also provide the comfort needed to the children so that they can rely on us to help them through their tough times. So the daycare is pretty much everything behaviorism is not.
I just realized my ex did this to me... And I've come out more traumatized than I already was. Masking more than I already was to the point I mask when I'm alone..
Paaaaige. Literally watching your video while waiting for my appointment in exactly 38 minutes. So nervous. 3rd appt we go over results today and I'm terrified everything will be invalidated once again and brushed off as nothing. I'm excited to finally be here at the "final" appt, but so nervous. Wish me luck with getting my diagnosis. EDIT: I've been officially diagnosed finally :)
Thank you ❣️ I feel like it was really important for me to hear this since I didn't know what behaviourism even meant. Very interesting & helpful, really hope to see more longer educational videos like this. Take care 😉
Yes, absolutely love you spittin these FACTS on FACTS!! Crazy how ppl will argue with psychology-- SCIENCE 🤯 even many professionals within the field itself. 😔 But thankfully there are still good ones staying current on the research and spreading the word. ♡♡
Not officially diagnosed autistic, but would be surprised if I'm not. I grew up with a lot of sensory issues that created a lot of unwanted behaviors, including what I now know was urgency incontinence. Your example was my daily life, and really struck a chord. Getting punished constantly as a child for things you have no control over can have serious effects when they grow to adulthood. I constantly had to choose between major discomfort I struggled to contain or being shouted at and hit growing up. I still suffer from pretty bad anxiety and still have a speech impediment from the habit of carefully choosing my every word. It was also very jarring when I grew up and other people didn't react this way.
This message is so important, thank you for sharing. I’m very passionate about this as someone who grew up being a people pleaser and still working on being my own person. We must go to the source as you mentioned. I will use this for the kids I teach as well. ❤
Adding on.. I'm realizing that behaviorism has played a big role in ruining my self image/esteem and ability to function in society. I literally don't know how to live for myself. I seek permission or external validation and reasons for everything all the way down to simple everyday choices.
2:09 "dog guy, rat gut, mean to children guy" 😆👍😢 11:00 "attachment wounds" is a phrase I've not heard before and it sums up well what I'm thinking about today. ❤️👍 Also, clarification for viewers: Gay conversation therapy doesn't make you gay; it's when "therapy" (coercion) is used on a queer person to make them "straight," or at least behave like they are. Scientifically, positive and negative reinforcement are about adding or removing factors, not whether the subject feels positive or negative about those factors, but culturally we tend to say "positive reinforcement" to mean we reward kids with something they actually like, instead of hitting or otherwise punishing for undesired behaviors. Great video! Looking forward to the rest. 13:07 yes!
great video, and the part about the dsm is super insightful. I have adhd, but several of the diagnostic behaviors dont apply to me for various other reasons and can never be fully descriptive of the entire group.
Oh so I have done very little research on behaviourism, but before the video continues…. I like to think of it as a disregard for intent. Intent has always seemed very important to me because without it we are all guessing things about one another based on behaviour, even if we clarify otherwise. Declaring intent is one of the most honest forms of communication in my opinion, that way conflict and miscommunication can be resolved with appreciation for each person’s feelings and thought process. At least in theory…
This is interesting, because when I hear "intent doesn't matter" the first thing that comes to mind is those stupid "woke" DEI trainings. I suppose one could conceive of them as a kind of behaviorism, intended to block real conversations about race, gender, etc through negative reinforcement... However, as best I can tell they are also totally ineffective at doing anything other than diverting money into the pockets of DEI trainers and giving big corporations an out against lawsuits.
even as a kid it didn't make sense to me why my mom took my things if i didn't do what she wanted or did something bad. to me it didn't seem logical since it would just make me want to do or not do the thing to get my belongings back, not whatever the actual reason was. i even tried to explain that to her AS A CHILD but she didn't seem to get it and didn't back down. this made my childhood very confusing at times and is what i believe to be one of the main reasons i struggle A LOT to take care of myself as an adult. i didn't learn i should go to bed on time because i learned to link it with feeling healthier or HOW to even keep a healthy sleep schedule, i did it because otherwise mom would take my phone or be disappointed. now that i'm an adult the threat of my parents punishments, my learned motivation for taking care of myself is gone, leaving me with a huge disconnection from the consequences of neglecting my health. i was given punishment where i should have been given tools.
@@eugeneimbangyorteza with friends we have spun the theory that a big part of modern society is using what you call slave owner rhetoric to gaslight us into giving up our boundaries to accept the unacceptable methods of capitalism where in we are mere cogs in a machine and not regarded human beings with feelings anymore. when one of our teeth breaks and we therefore don't run smoothly in the machine anymore, it is definitely our fault, not the machine for breaking us. it is so important to realize that and break out of it. realize boundaries are important and That no. you do not have to take every Bullshit from other people. you do not have to accept a pay that makes it difficult to pay rent at the end of month. you do not have to accept creepy bosses because you require money (and therefore a job) to live you do not have to accept people meddling in your personal life, because they think you need to achieve (like marrying and having kids) Its ok to cut people out of your life that don't respect you it's ok to quit a job that does not respect you it is ok to join a union to be able to fight for jobs treating you better
I read about behaviourism literally yesterday! I do not believe in it at all. I think it’s HARMFUL in so many ways. The main one being masking. (To take one example from how it affects me)
Holy wow, my mind was just opened. All I do is to try and make others happy because then they won't hurt me. But now at 31 I've only just learnt I'm able to say no, I still struggle to make any decision unless I ask anyone. I have struggled to ever feel like an adult, and I was always told one day I'd be one, and nope. I have a child and still feel like a child. Thank you for helping me to try to unlearn it all... slowly somehow.
I am an adult with ADHD who was diagnosed as a kid, and it took a long time to figure myself out in that area. I find behavioral therapy to be very helpful, more so than medication has been. That being said, I think it is something specific to individuals and their goals. I don't think its right for everyone to be forced to accomplish goals all the same way (like schools often impose on people). I do think that classical conditioning can be very good, in the right scenarios. It only "works" with the right temperments and motivations. But it can absolutely become horrific if it isn't done well. But those Brat dolls I got for acing my spelling tests, and money I earned for my good grades, were the only things keeping me going in school. Short term rewards were far more effective... I think nothing is ever cut and dry. Nothing at all. You have to pay attention to who you're working with, and think about who are you to them (authority/safety/etc). It's relational, there should be understood interaction boundaries thar are specific to the relationship and the task at hand. For example, it's appropriate for my parents to say I can have a treat and stay up late for my x behavior goal being met. (That I understand and am also motivated for) It would not be appropriate for a therapist to allocate this.
I had accidents in elementary school one year bc this teacher said not to ask to go to the bathroom, but it felt weird to just leave - especially when you don't know when the right/wrong times are.
I've also seen some people say that after you hit a kid you need to sit down and talk to them about what they did wrong so they understand... then why did you hit them??? If the talking part is what actually fixes things why did you hit them??? Mind boggling, I hope in the future children wont have to deal with this bs
Ya, u hit someone then something already went wrong and the problem is very rarely with the victim of the hitting(does not apply to punching a Nazi)
@@jenniferferris44 oh... so, you're saying it's ok to hit someone as long as their values don't align with yours? Ok. Not the most intelligent thought, but you do you.
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanks if their values are based on genocide of all that isn't exactly like them, then hitting is the nicest thing we as a society of different people from different cultures with different backgrounds striving for different life goals living different lifestyles can do to them. I am willing to fight to protect others in our society from erasure or genocide regardless of diversity 💗🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈🥳
I didn't just use a group with different 'values', I used an existential threat to the greater majority of the world
@Jennifer Ferris I'm Jewish, but that does not give me the right to punch a nazi...I actually wouldn't if I had the chance. You claim to hate others because of their values just because their values clash with yours. You are no better than them. The world is all about values, and everyone has different ones. On the flip side, there are others out there who feel threatened by gay pride and flaunting that around. Where is national Satanism month? Where is the month dedicated to the hundreds of other beliefs out there? Oh, they aren't the majority? Ok, then let's just forget them. Include everyone or sit the fuck down.
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanksWay to strawman. Not the most intelligent thought.
Behaviourism is like putting on a bandage each time a child cuts their arms on the playground merry-go-round rather than addressing the jagged edge that keeps cutting the children.
Weird example-- cutting your arm on a playground is a classic negative stimulus.
Or are you meta-arguing that behaviorists should have been behaviorally modified to stop being behaviorists by negative reinforcement that occurs as a result of their use of behaviorism?
@@modusvivendi2 the jagged edge of the merry-go-round is the cause of the children bleeding, instead of just putting a band-aid on to stop the bleeding every time they go on it you address the root cause and the child doesn't get cut anymore
they are talking about addressing cause off the issue rather then just trying to stop the response
It's more like punishing the kid for crying about their arms hurting
when i was little there was one time where i wanted to pick up some strips of paper. i kept pulling by the edges of the paper and kept cutting myself. my parents didn't really say anything, and just gave me band-aids. then i kinda became afraid of paper. (sorry for bad english)
what happens when they go to another merry-go-round which has a sharp edge upon which they can cut themselves?
My mother complains that I "never liked her"; apparently as a toddler I would rather spend time with pretty much any other adult I knew than with her.
The pediatrician had to tell her that making the baby cry for one hour because she's hungry after 3h at an age when "the book" said 4h (the book = what she'd been taught in teacher's school, plus those books in fashion at the time, plus the all-too-common misunderstanding that an average value is the only acceptable or even possible value). Both as a baby and as a child, she held me very little and berated other people for holding or hugging me because she saw hugging and holding as "pampering".
From the point of view of a hungry baby, someone who refuses to feed you when they're your only source of food, refuses to hold you when most of the time it's just them and you, never hugs you... is not very likable! I got more hugs from the neighbors than I did from her, of course I liked them better!
Omg I'm so sorry man, that's rough. I hope you can have some good relationships now
Wow. I can't comprehend making a toddler or small children cry for hours before giving them any food.
I related too much to this. Experiences like this and my own lead me to believe that sometimes a “present” but negligent parent is almost worse if not worse than a completely absent parent. I wonder if I’d be less fucked up if my mother had just not been involved in my life because her involvement seemed very self serving and short term, as if she began loving me less and less the older and more aware I became and the less control she could enforce over me. Having narcissistic/emotionally abusive parents is too common for people on the spectrum
I’m so sorry you went through that. What your mother did is abuse, neglecting a child’s need for love and attention from their caregiver is neglect and causes serious harm (attachment disorders and childhood trauma to name just two). I hope you’ve managed to recover from what you went through and are doing better now.
It’s really sad that Page is targeting Autistic low income single parents by demonizing sleep training and confusing it with “cry it out”. Sleep training absolutely advocates for comforting, cuddling, checking back, providing food etc. Cry it out does not. I hope Page learns these terms before she misinforms thousands of vulnerable people
Behaviorism basically forces ND people to suffer to be acknowledged. I am getting my autism evaluation soon, and the biggest fear I have is that I’m not suffering enough now to be acknowledged. At this point I’m 90% sure I’m autistic, and I want this addressed now when I’m in high school so I can get the accommodations I need in adulthood. Because I know that even though I don’t show outward behaviors of my sensory issues and social difficulties, as my world continues to change and I’m forced to work in environments that are hell to me, I WILL begin to show negative and harmful behaviors. But I might not be able to get that until I’m having bigger and more frequent meltdowns or I can barely leave the house outside of work because my workplace is so overstimulating. I KNOW my brain is different, but since I’m not behaving enough like it, I’m not as valid to the medical community.
Update: my parents hooked me up with a therapist, yay! But she’s not an expert and autism and describes herself as a behaviorist at heart, oh no! Throughout the beginning of the session she was pretty much just talking to my mom, then when we were alone and I told her why I wanted to come her immediate reaction (after knowing me for like 10 minutes) was “there’s no way you’re autistic”
If she were a professional in the field and we’d talked longer I’d be more inclined to accept that, but she didn’t have that going for her. As someone who went into literal years of research before asking for a diagnosis and who has multiple autistic and otherwise ND friends that also thought it’s worth it to look at that didn’t seem adequate to me. I described autism signs I have but she just said “ptsd, adhd, and anxiety all look a lot like autism” and explicitly told me that I shouldn’t research things like this if I think it might pertain to me. Then, as I described why I also think I have adhd, she legit said “sounds like an attention problem” as if there is no A in adhd. She even said I couldn’t have autism because “I would’ve been caught sooner” and when I explained that afab people get diagnosed later she agreed but didn’t take that into consideration at all.
All in all, a frustrating experience where I felt like I wasn’t listened to and I was talked down to. She legit said “I’m not an expert on autism at all but I’m like 100% sure you don’t have autism” then asked me if I had any trauma as if that was why I was there.
Yeah, this is a really big problem with all sorts of things. Do people have to end up in a hospital in order to be believed? You don't think Tom has a peanut allergy and you endanger his life? You don't think someone is ADHD/Autistic and you only believe them when they have a meltdown? Don't think someone is depressed until they self harm or attempt suicide? And this happens all the time.
With the first example, I've hear so many HORROR stories about people ordering food w/o a certain ingredient bc they're allergic or something, one time someone couldn't have regular milk, they ordered soy milk for their coffee, and the barista put in regular, and luckily she got caught, but she could have put the girl in the hospital. Her excuse? Something along the lines of "oh everyone is drinking soy milk and almond milk bc it's a trend, i'm gonna put in regular milk teehee" like BRUH
Nothing to say, I just wanted to give you a big virtual hug^^ I got diagnosed at age 15 and it was so frustrating not knowing what’s wrong with me. I hope you get all your questions answered. Big hugs
I feel like you're psyching yourself out here. If you're certain that you will display harmful behaviors when confronted with stimuli, that's liable to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Shrinks don't have an incentive to reject a diagnosis that presents itself. (If anything, the economic incentives are to the contrary-- more diagnoses = more treatment = more billing.) Just be honest and forthright and you'll be fine.
@@modusvivendi2 Different countries have different healthcare systems, so I'm sure it varies. But in the US, your second point is absolutely false. I live in the US, and I have to try to get re-tested (probably out of pocket, because insurance only pays for that sort of thing once every 4 years or so), because I was sent to a Psychiatrist for autism and adhd testing on the recommendation of TWO different licensed therapists who are more or less 100% sure that I'm autistic, but don't technically specialize in autism and adhd diagnoses, so can't officially give me the diagnosis we all know I need. He wouldn't diagnose me, even after 6-8 HOURS of testing, during which I was stimming almost constantly and had multiple meltdowns because I was getting so tired and overstimulated, and answered yes to almost every single point on the sensory processing disorder questionnaire I was given. His reasoning? "There's a reason we can only bill for 5 things, you know, and you already have five existing documented diagnoses. Some times people with a high degree of intelligence just go looking for problems. When the reality is that the vast majority of people with autism have an average or below average IQ."
All of those existing diagnoses that he just decided to confirm and move on because he couldn't be paid for more than that? Things that are either commonly comorbid with autism, or that are commonly misdiagnosed in autistic women. He DID ask me if I'd ever had occupational therapy for the sensory issues, though... you know, that thing that it's almost impossible to get in the US as an adult, or even as a child without and official diagnosis. Some practitioners care more than others, or are more up to date on recent research and studies, I'm sure. So anyone's mileage may very based on who's office they wind up stepping into. But the sad truth is that honesty is NOT all that's required.
@@fujo_cat Please read the original post more carefully. The person clearly states that they are not currently suffering those meltdowns. If you are, then you are in an entirely different situation.
The way the site said ABA will teach kids skill reminds me of parents seeing their kid finally showing affection by hugging after going through ABA and assume the therapy taught their kids empathy because they believe physical affection is the only sign that someone has empathy
I hate that assumption
Sorry for ranting about terminology, but hugging is a sign of sympathy (making someone else feel better through common behavior), not empathy (feeling the same emotion as someone else).
Hugging's a bit of an analytical dog's breakfast because it can cause sensory overstimulation. But in general I don't think autistic people typically suffer from a deficit of sympathy. If I know that Jane is sad, I will (assuming I don't hate her for some reason) try to make her feel better, because I'm not a monster. What I'm not so good at is correctly figuring out that Jane is sad in the first place.
@@modusvivendi2 i definitely agree with what you said about autistic people and sympathy! many people seem to have the idea that autistic people do not experience sympathy or empathy, and while this obviously is true for some autistics, i don't think it is inherently an autistic trait. I know of many more autistic people who experience average amounts of sympathy/empathy, or even more, than i do people who experience less than average. I think people think that we don't experience sympathy/empathy because often times we don't portray our sympathy/empathy in a "normal" (neurotypical) way.
sorry that was a lot lol
its annoys me so much that neurotypical people will often assume an autistic person doesn't feel empathy just because we often show it the same way they do. I personally experience more empathy than the average person, and so do many other autistics, but i am very bad at showing it, and so some might assume that I don't actually feel empathy.
@@krose2005 Autism is definitely characterized by a lack of cognitive empathy, i.e. difficulty understanding what another person is thinking at a given time.
The issue is that when psychologists (using the term empathy correctly) say that autistic people "lack empathy," the general public (using the term in its incorrect, popular sense) understands that to mean that autistic people are selfish jerks. Which is untrue.
I think "empathy" is as clinically useless as "idiot," "imbecile" or "moron" at this point (yes, once upon a time all of those were medical terms!) because any use of it invariably sweeps in unintended connotations. A less confusing way to say it is that autistic people have deficits in understanding agency, or theory-of-mind.
As a kid who absolutely had to “perform” for my mom to brag about to her friends… it’s not been a great adulthood.
You want your mommy to love you, you go out there and do the only thing you're good for, which is singing the goddamn lollipop song!
Same. Except I actually cracked. And I got an autism diagnosis thanks to this girl in the video here. Well, it definitely explained why I was so strange, and why my parents spanked me for the things I couldn't control 🤔
same here :pensive:
Yes
Behaviourism is when you recognise that your parents behavior, taking you to the supermarket, is a problem and so you give negative feedback, lying on the floor and screaming. Once you successfully get your parents to associate their behavior with the negative response you'll be able to train them to behave more appropriately. Useful advice for all toddlers out there!
😂😂 Omgosh
I like it
A behaviorist would never use the word "associate" lol
Wtf
Once that toddler starves to death, they'll realize that there was a reason their parents are going to the supermarket.
Behavioral therapy in children is literally just parents saying "ah yes, this one behavior you, my child, have in this present moment with me annoys me in some way, so I will beat you or draw it out of you in some other way in order to make me, your parent, comfortable in this present moment", regardless of what kind of emotional and/or attachment issues their child might develop as an adult.
The amount of crying children I've seen in my life beind handled by emotionally immature parents who would rather berate or beat their child in public (usually in supermarkets) in order to not be embarrassed, I guess, instead of trying to figure out why their child is crying in the first place.
The supermarket example is great because like you said there's embaresment attached to it. Even if they are great parents in private, it's essentially encouraging masking at an early age. As an adult who needs to function in society I don't think masking is necessary either "good" or "bad", but I feel like we shouldn't be teaching children the lesson "you're not allowed to express yourself in public because that's embarrassing" (that is, if they understand why thier behavior is being punished in the first place)
Basically my father. And now the rest of my family too :'(
I'd get smacked around enough at home that all my parents would have to say is "if you don't stop (singing, dancing, crying - whatever was annoying/embarrassing them) I'm going to give you something to cry about!!!" just loud enough for me to hear it and I'd shut down completely in fear. I find children screaming in public very triggering (not blaming the kids) because I fully expect the parents to backhand them across the face or threaten to kill them, like my parents always did. The only thing my parents taught me was that you cannot trust any humans. Decades of therapy hasn't helped one bit, I never feel safe.
Nah. It's more like finding out why autistic kids scream, scratch their eyes out, bite people, eat markers, and run out into busy streets, then with said data, teach functional communication based on why they are doing those behaviors so they can get what they want without hurting themselves or others.
This is what bothers me so much about research surrounding ABA therapy. The research which suggests that it "works" only focuses on the behavior of the child, but it pretty much never analyzes the mental health or wellbeing of them. When research such as correlations between PTSD and ABA therapy are revealed, instead of investigating them further, proponents of ABA will instead dismiss them entirely.
... because there are no scientific, peer reviewed articles showing a direct link between ABA and PTSD. ABA has changed, read up "A Perspective on today's ABA" by Dr Greg Hanley
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanks There is indeed a peer-reviewed research article from 2018 which demonstrates a significant correlation between exposure to ABA therapy and symptoms of PTSD. I would provide the DOI, but it keeps getting caught in the TH-cam spam filter. The title is "Evidence of increased PTSD symptoms in autistics exposed to applied behavior analysis". This is a correlation that has been established, and whether or not there is a causal link has yet to be established. However, if a causal link does indeed exist, it does not necessarily have to be a direct link in order for it to be meaningful. For example, college education can increase the wages of a person who receives a degree, but it works via an indirect process. A college education allows for an individual to obtain a job which pays more, and the job itself is what causes the increased wages. Still a causal relationship, despite being an indirect method.
The fact that the ABA therapy industry has dismissed these findings rather than investigating further to determine whether or not a causal relationship might exist is highly concerning, especially since research into ABA therapy by the ABA therapy industry focuses almost exclusively on behavioral components of change rather than cognitive components. Modern ABA therapy may omit harsh punishments that previous forms of ABA therapy used, but that does not mean that aversive training is not still used (e.g., negative punishment). Furthermore, the premise of ABA therapy is flawed; it rewards behaviors on the ground of extrinsic motivation, and results are usually only noticed after intense periods of exposure to ABA therapy (sometimes around 40 hours a week). This is akin to a full-time job to a child who may already have to commit a significant amount of time to school, leaving little time for other activities such as socialization, playing, exercise, etc. There are a whole host of issues with ABA therapy, but the sheer amount of time that a child has to commit to it for any noticeable results to be apparent is alone terrible for the child. And this is ultimately for the purpose of trying to "fix" behaviors that are not inherently problematic, with the exception of those that involve self harm or the harm of others. And in general, extrinsic motivation often reduces the desire for an individual to intrinsically practice a certain behavior or activity, which could backfire in the long-term if they are being trained to suppress basic components of their neurology.
I think if a particular ABA program has strayed so far from the original purpose and no longer employs the practices that it used to, then they should change the name for the sake of the autistic community but also the LGBTQ+ community, seeing as this practice was originally created by the same person who created conversion therapy for gay people. Therapy can be good for many people, autistic people especially, but the nature of that therapy and the goals it seeks to achieve are important. Helping autistic people manage stress, changing environments, overstimulating environments, and finding ways to socialize can be great goals of therapy. But teaching autistic kids that they need to sit a certain way, remain still all the time, make eye contact, etc -- those are just social norms, not behaviors that are intrinsically good for them. It is the expectation that autistic kids are inherently broken and need to be "fixed", which is simply wrong. Many autistic people have unique childhoods and could use therapy, but many of us simply grow from authentic life experience. Others may need extra support, but that does not mean that they need to be trained or sat in a room for 20-40 hours a week about proper etiquette.
@Jenno Syde 🏳️⚧️ I haven't read all of what you said yet, but I tip my hat to you for being professional and providing peer reviewed articles to discuss.
However, I am familiar with that study by Kupferstein. I have thoroughly read over it and I agree that ABA can do better... but Kupferstein's method had a lot of holes in it. She used an online survey to make her point. How can you demonstrate experimental control with an online survey? These concerns and more are addressed in the article "Evaluating Kupferstein's claims of the relationship of behavioral intervention to PTSS for individuals with autism" by Leaf et al. (2018).
A few other red flags I noticed, she didn't explain how she recruited her sample size. She could have been Cherry picking to support her agenda.
It is also nearly impossible to show that PTSD was a direct consequence of ABA. There are so many other extraneous factors which might cause PTSD outside of the ABA setting. And what about the non vocal kids who cannot get on the internet to voice their opinion? The kids who used to gouge their eyes out and smash their heads in... they were saved by ABA. Where are their stories? Where are their voices?
It's just kind of strange that there are literally thousands of peer reviewed articles in favor of ABA showing its effectiveness... then here comes Kupferstein's online survey. Not the most scientific way to demonstrate anything. We can learn from it, sure. But kinda crazy that this might be one of the few, if not only, attempts to refute the science of ABA.....
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanks Sounds more like pseudoscience favoring ABA.
@@jennosyde709 Rapscallion has been caught trolling everyone on TH-cam comments who don't agree with ABA. Watch out for that user.
I've definitely been humiliated several times by adults when I was a child and that hurt my self-esteem so much! It's also probably why I developed social anxiety from such a young age...
“We know that by letting the child cry it out loud and self-soothe it works … but not without causing a bunch of other issues that cannot be repressed forever and will come to the surface” I felt that and it happened now that I’m a mama.
Some comments have already addressed this but I’m gonna drop this here anyway in case someone missed them. Positive reinforcement doesn’t always equal “good” and negative reinforcement doesn’t always equal “bad.” You can have positive punishment and negative reward. In conditioning, positive means additive, negative means subtractive. When I let my dog out of the kennel after she sits and holds position, that’s a negative reward because I subtracted the crate. A negative punishment would be taking away your teen’s phone or something else they like as a consequence. Spanking is an example of “positive” punishment because you are adding physical pain. When you stop it’s a negative reward. Putting a sticker on a chore chart is an example of positive reward.
Thank you, I was just thinking the same thing!
Thank you, was gonna say this but you explained perfectly
Okay I get it but it sounds confusing since I thought positive and negative were used to describe the reaction by the person giving or taking away something.
@@jclyntoledo TOTALLY understandable! Psychology makes everything more complicated. It's definitely confusing for folks that haven't been exposed to this language. We're always taught that positive=adding something, negative=taking something away. Reinforcement refers to INCREASING a desired behavior, while punishment refers to DECREASING an "undesired" behavior.
Negative reward looks a lot like extortion.
I hate how to get a disorder diagnosis the questions are so based on behaviour, when going through my autism assessment i was so unsure on how to respond because i wasn't sure if this behaviour i have is what the question asks and i always needed to think of the meaning behind all the behaviours asked like "do you have hard time ___" It's really from the perspectice of an outside and not about the person themselves because what goes through your head doesn't always reflect how people will assume of your behaviour....For exemple when i have trouble understanding other people's emotions i might end up saying things that will hurt but i'm not aware of it, but apparently this will be seen as being blunt when for me it's just normal so when i'm asked if i'm blunt when i say things i'm not sure--
I 100% agree. Similarly, when I was going through one of the worst times of my life I went to see a psychologist and he gave me a questionaire for depression and anxiety. There were questions like "do you find yourself lightheaded constantly, having headaches, very hungry or with no apetite, and to a lot of those I said yes. But it wasn't depression/anxiety, it was because I had a crippling eating disorder and I wasn't eating enough
LITERALLY! 'do you have a hard time [insert neurotypical skill]?' i don't know because i'm not neurotypical
YES!
I got diagnosed with MDD when I was 19. I’m so grateful I had my mom there to help me with the written assessment because I had no idea I had certain behaviors that came off as “untypical”. She helped me realize that some things that I would put as “doesn’t do that” because they were such normal behaviors for me was actually a “definitely does that.. a lot” type of answer.
Ex: I would’ve put down a no for hyper-fixation, but she told me I most definitely have it.
I know I would have a hard time doing an assessment by myself cause most of what I do seems to be done without me consciously knowing I’m doing it. It’s practically instinctive.
Omgosh, yes! This is how I felt when I finally went in to get diagnosed with ADHD. I realized all the questions seemed vague and like you said it was based on behaviors that ppl would see. A lot of stuff I had worked on so as an adult who was 30 I didn't interrupt up or space out when ppl talked. I had coping mechanisms to prevent that but it didn't mean it wasn't hard to sit through a long winded story or lecture. It meant I had to repeat stuff in my head a lot, make lots of mental notes or write stuff down. It also depended on how detailed the story was in the convo and how fast they spoke and how much my executive dysfunction was showing up that day. And the little things like being forgetful or losing things. I have a system I have to follow that would eliminate this issue.
From an autistic perspective, behaviorism is frustrating. So many challenges autistic people face can be addressed by changing aspects of the environment. At its most expressed behaviorism is used to justify abusive treatment.
So your perspective is to change everything else Around you rather then yourself. Seems selfish lazy and what a ego maniac would think.
So your perspective is to ignore the sensory pain that autistic people often experience and have no reliable outlet to communicate it.
@@gislannaepstein8582 You can improve yourself to a certain degree but there are many behaviours that are not harmful and require nothing to be changed at all except the judgemental mind of some people because they can't comprehend the fact that other brains can be wired differently.
@@gislannaepstein8582 what people don't realize is that in mental health struggles EVERYTHING ELSE BUT YOU can be one of the biggest influences on your mental health
so yes, even tho it sounds paradoxical, it is the most important thing. not only in autism.
for example one important step would be to kick toxic people like you out of my life.
people need to realize that they do not have to tolerate every kind of behavior towards them. boundaries.
@@gislannaepstein8582 Yes, that is the idea of reasonable accommodations for disabilities, as enshrined in law in America and Europe and as recognised by the UN convention on the rights of people with disabilities. Would you demand that mobility-impaired people be forced to go through extremely painful and traumatizing surgeries to slightly improve their ability to walk before they're allowed to get any rights, rather than providing them with wheelchairs and ramps? It's the exact same thing, but for some reason with autism we expect autistic people to "overcome" their disabilities (which is impossible, by the way, autistic brains are literally anatomically different from neurotypical people's) rather than making any accommodations. This mindset is exactly why the autistic mental illness and suicide rate is so high.
first impression: i have never even heard abt behaviorism??? but i’m gonna watch this
after watching: wow. jesus. i… am realizing my therapist when i was a kid entirely did behaviorism and i only masked my anxiety so i could be brave enough to be dropped off with everyone else so i could get a chocolate bar
When I hear “behaviorism” I always thing of A Clockwork Orange or 1984 and similar disturbing dystopian novels. I know A Clockwork Orange was written in direct criticism of certain ideas in behaviorism.
Lol. How so? Do you know that behaviorism focuses on operant behavior? And wasn't the convict in Clockwork Orange subjected to a stimulus- stimulus pairing procedure using reflexive (or respondent) conditioning to create an association between certain behaviors and feeling ill? So, what you're saying is that a clockwork Orange was NOT using methods of behaviorism, and that you just made that up for attention without understanding a single thing you were talking about? Maybe you can send me where I can find this "knowing" the movie was in direct criticism of behaviorism.
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanksA dramatic form of aversion therapy is used in A Clockwork Orange. Aversion therapy is a type of behavioral therapy. All behavioral therapies are based upon or at least assumes some basic ideas of behaviorism. My psych teacher in high school was the one who told us A Clockwork Orange and other dystopian novels were meant to criticize certain aspects of behaviorism. She implied that aversion therapy fell under the umbrella of behaviorism. So take it up with her.
Also, operant conditioning is not the only type of conditioning that behaviorism covers. It also covers respondent/classical conditioning, according to Google. An example given of therapy that uses classical conditioning? Aversion therapy.
ALSO, someone getting something factually wrong on the internet doesn’t mean they did it maliciously for attention. Sometimes people make mistakes. Instead of being a ahole just clearly explain the “mistake” and move on..
@@IcanSeeMyselfOutThanks
people.whitman.edu/~herbrawt/classes/390/Newman.pdf
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9567233/
@@Seri-dy5dd That "ahole" whio repleid to you has been caught trolling everyone on TH-cam who doesn't agree with him. He doesn't seem to have a life.
You should do a video on the “pathogizing” of every single behavior in autism. If you have a developmental disability if any kind you go from a person who sometimes gets upset to “a fighter.” If you can’t communicate with your words and sometimes lash out with biting, you’re now “a biter.” Normal behaviors like getting angry and storming off is called “a runner.” Then this escalates to every little thing they do being added to the file of who they are. Completely normal reactions are pointed to some part of their disability. I can’t just enjoy my preferred activities - I’m hyper focusing and need to be redirected in an hour in otherwise I’ll sit there all night. Like an adult can’t possibly get into a project and work on it throughout the night. I know you could find 100 other ways we turn everything into an issue. It’s not that I like an item - it’s my preferred item and used as a way to get me to do something. It’s not that I just want to hug those I care for - I have boundary issues. So I’m and so forth. I think another long form video like this would be awesome. Great video!!
she should!
These are all awful, but I especially hate the patholigizing of "running away" like being able to recognize when your limits have been reached, and removing yourself from an overwhelming situation is somehow bad? If they're doing it in a "childish way" it's likely because they don't have the emotional energy left to hold composure, I just don't understand the complete lack of empathy these people have for autistics...
yes this would be great. also the whole communication "deficits" when really it's just different from NTs ffs
The autistic community tends to do this too online…not everything someone does is because they’re autistic. My humming might be a stim or it might be because I have a song stuck in my head.
@@ReineDeLaSeine14 I think you're generalizing the Autistic community too much.
I had a very late diagnosis at age 20, I was treated with ABA as that's the standard method of care for autistic people, but since I'm in Brazil, I had access to a multidisciplinary team with a speech therapist to help me with my stuttering and general shyness, an occupational therapist to help me overcome some social situations like ordering food, talking on the phone, etc. and a psychologist with a focus on autistic people. I'm thankful the ABA approach I was presented focused more on helping me overcome the hurdles I could overcome without forcing me to do things that were exceedingly difficult. I felt respected at all times.
The behaviourist model has helped me immensely, it helped cure my anorexia, depression and other comorbities I developed due to the undiagnosed autism. Even though it has helped me, I can see why it can be wielded as a weapon against autistic children.
I love your post. I just got diagnosed at 42. So would that be very very very very late lol. It is nice to hear the positive side of ABA. When I was a kid Autism wasn't widely known. I to had all the same therapies from 10 to 16 (1990-1996). Not Autism based but still the same. It made me who I am and I wouldn't change it. No regrets.
Glad you are diagnosed so early. I’m 48 and still not diagnosed.
it's very possible tho that what you went through was not the aba people criticize, but simply called ABA
@@CristalianaIvor I believe there are different types of ABA. The warning of so is very important. The hands on dog training types are on the bad side. I will say ABA is needed when no control is harmful. Like in my case and now in me son's case. We just have to advocate for the right type.
@@KPaul7 tbh I feel the whole concept of ABA is extemely flawed and while there are some harmful behaviors of autistic people that definitely need addressing - I still think ABA is superfluous.
and I think having "good" ABA just muddles the waters too much because people then don't understand that there is an abusive type of ABA
Just abolish ABA fully and use techniques that are actually scientificaly proven to be useful.
for example in behavioral therapy there is Cognitive Behavior Therapy which is for example what I do with my therapist to address my depression.
unlike ABA the focus is not soley on behaviors
Yes!! This!! Behavioral Psychology seems to reverse the cause and the effect. It observes behavior and then labels it. "This is autistic." "This is OCD." etc. And then treats that label as having explanatory value when it's only descriptive. "Why do they act so weird?" "Well, they're autistic." No. It was determined that they're autistic on the basis of the behaviors you're describing as weird. Doesn't go deeper into understanding what motivates that behavior in the first place and keeps people ignorant and confused.
"I'm depressed because I have depression. I have depression because I'm depressed". And if that doesn't work, they put the "chemical imbalance" thing.
The reason why people believe in a "chemical imbalance" is because "the drugs work". Yes, and when I get drunk, I get drunk :D And, sometimes, I'm more happy while drunk and, other times, more sad :( Same with any other drug...
But, of course, "antidepressant" is catchy, right? Remember when they changed the name of the orcas because it made people hate them more? Words are powerful. Why are "depression" and "suicidal thoughts" listed as "side effects"/adverse effects of antidepressants? "Side effects" doesn't mean "less common", it just means "unwanted".
The "chemical imbalance" theory is even more false than the "alpha wolf" theory... If you know the story behind the "alpha wolf" theory, you know what I mean...
Pd: Sorry for the rant...
@@BL-sd2qw i'm really happy that Dr. K was actually honest with this , as a psychiatrist himself. he basically just said that "we dont know why antidepressants work".
@@asuka_the_void_witch i love Dr. K:)
@@argo8276 he's really helpful
This was wrote before watching the video:
When I was 17-19 I went to college to get a degree on Psychology so all I know about behaviorism is from that time period. They taught me all about "Condicionamiento clásico y operante" and "reforzadores y castigos" (I have no clue what the terms in English are). I honestly hate it because, as its name says, it's only focused on changing a behavior without actually caring about what is causing that behavior. Also, the fact that they said "well it works for dogs so why don't we apply it to humans?" it's... concerning to say the least. Humans are not dogs. Humans are complex and bad behavior is usually not the problem, but the result of a real problem (emotional issues, maybe a neurodivergency, lack of impulse control, etc). The conditioning method used in behaviorism fails to address all those underlying issues. The person is not learning why their behavior is bad or how to better regulate themselves and their emotions to prevent that behavior to happen and those things are the most important things because having that knowledge one can then apply it to other similar situations. So, basically, I find it stupid and useless at best and extremely harmful at worst because it can turn you into a robot that just suppresses their emotions and responds to orders and doesn't know how to cope with things or regulate itself.
This was wrote after watching the video:
Haha. I almost forgot to write my after-thoughts. I agree with everything you said, I just wanted to add one thing. You're using the terms positive and negative reinforcement wrong. When referring to this topic positive does not mean good and negative does not mean bad. In Psichology, a positive thing is something that it's added to your experience, and a negative thing it's something that's taken out from your experience. A good example of this is what we call positive and negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Hallucinations are a positive symptom because it's something that gets added to your life because of the disorder. Hallucinations are not good. That's all my thoughts. I deeply admire you for advocating for neurodiversity and talking openly about your thoughts, experiences and opinions. Keep doing what you do. 💜
Wow, very interesting and thanks for making the point about positive/negative reinforcement. I was familiar with the same concept as far as positive and negative rights in a constitutional context, but haven't realized that psychology uses the terms in a similar way as well. I actually think that's the way we should use the terms more often than not, the additive/reductive concept seems more useful and descriptive of reality than to use the good/bad concept of what positive/negative means.
Ooh, I like the before and after approach! Thanks for your comment! (I just realized Paige suggested to do this, but I still appreciate your perspective!)
Also, contextualizing from the Spanish I do know as well as the topic, I do believe the first term in English is "classical and operant conditioning". I'd have to look up the second term. Perhaps "reinforcements and punishments"? (I just looked up castigo, and that is indeed punishment)
correct @ pos/neg
@@TheCloverAffiliate12 Yes, your translations are correct! I’m a final year PhD student in psychology and I’m also semi-fluent/conversant in Spanish (I got my undergraduate minors in Spanish, although it’s I *really* rusty since I haven’t practiced in ages 😬).
@@jamiegdubois Interesting. I'm pretty fluent in English, but sometimes with terms of this kind the words used are not the same Like with stimming. The word in Spanish doesn't exist. The closest to it is "estereotipia" which would mean stereotyped movements. And stimming is more like "the act of self stimulating your senses"
I feel like this is extremely accurate, the way I was raised definitely makes me believe that being upset just makes people hate me. So I hide it especially from my parents, I just feel ignored, and like no one not even my partner cares about me being upset. As a kid if I cried I was called selfish, disrespectful, and told I just wanted attention, or that something was wrong with me🤷🏽♀️yea that caused a lot of damage
I’ve had trouble keeping friendships pretty much all my life, so last year I’d decided that I want to work on that. I started pushing myself to meet people and it had caused me a lot of stress. Recently I realized that I probably have avpd and that’s what causes the problems. So I went to see a therapist, hoping that she’ll listen to what I think, go through my experiences and emotions and give me some feedback and tips. I really wanted her to help me change how I think. What she did was listen to me for 3 sessions and the fourth session she told me that “I haven’t made much progress in the time of me seeing her” and told me I need to work on doing stuff I’m afraid of doing. She wasn’t wrong but what she(and behaviorism in general, as you were saying) doesn’t understand is that the problem is much deeper. I had tried to change my behavior but it only caused me suffering as I still had my disordered thoughts and perspective.
That sounds like a very demoralizing experience, I'm sorry. I hope you find a healthy way forward, at your own pace. If you're still open to therapy, and it's accesible to you, I definitely encourage it (with a therapist that works with you, not... on you.).
I'm surprised that therapist didn't use CBT as it's a very common style of therapy that would address thoughts and how that influences actions. Although I don't think it's 100% useful since for some ppl it's the feeling that remains.
it doesn't sound like the therapist did any psychoeducation at all? they're supposed to teach you how to work with your thoughts and feelings not just tell you what your problems are.
Coincidentally, I'm reading a book at the moment, its English title is "Humankind: A new history of human nature", in which Dutch author Rutgar Bergman also shortly writes about behaviourism. The main topic of his book is him arguing that humans are inherently good, and he spends many pages describing why people do bad things at all. Most of his arguments condense to the fact that people are being taught that other people are selfish and bad - which, of course, shapes relationships and turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. He also explains that behaviourism is a consequence of capitalism (what else? most ableism is rooted in capitalism) and further that, what I find really interesting but pretty sad at the same time, it is also rooted in the believe that people are inherently bad, lazy, cannot motivate themselves and need motivation = reinforcement from the outside.
You said it yourself, behaviourism is scientifically and ethically wrong. When I watched your video I had to think about Stanley Kubrick's film (probably a fellow autistic person!) "A Clockwork Orange", which poses the question if it is better if people are able to choose subjectively "bad" behaviour, or if they should be so manipulated as not to be able to choose anything else than displaying good behaviour. This might be a movie that's interesting for you, if you don't know it already *special interest off*
Anyways, thanks for the video and explaining the issues of behaviourism in depth!
At the end of the video I was like... Oh, this is why I'm a 30 year old unhappy human. I was raised purely though behaviorism by my parents and even now I even struggle to do things I enjoy because I'm not sure they please everyone around me. Wow!
I was too (they’re not bad people, they just used bad methodology), and this video made me realize “Maybe this is why I think everything is my fault because something is wrong with me. It’s been subconsciously told to me since day one. I was left with more questions than answers, so I had no choice but to assume that everything was my fault because I am broken and need to be fixed.”
Everyone's doing their best, I'm not blaming my parents. However, knowing the source of some of one's unhappiness is pretty useful when trying to deal with it
Therapy helps with that. I'm not sure your issues is entirely due to behaviorism it sounds like poor boundaries and ppl pleasing.
@@Stfguac I agree it's not blaming but you can awknowledge where the issue came from and now you can use that info to deconstruct those schemas and unhelpful coping mechanisms.
@@jclyntoledo I am
This was such a nice Tuesday morning think piece 🥰💖🌈 Amazing work 💖
Omg hi pixie!!!!
I was an ABA "behavior technician" for about a year. I had no background in working with kids, psychology, or autism, but I was desperate for a job (this was during covid) and it seemed like a good way to help people. I did no research into the position before I applied (I had applied to literally over 100 jobs at this point). Looking back, I probably shouldn't have been hired, but they had a very high turnover rate there (working 10 hour days in an ABA clinic will do that to you). I was not in a good place mentally (like besides making money to survive my two biggest goals were to eat and sleep sustainably), and the more I "dethawed" from my depression the more awareness I had of what I was doing, what behaviorism was, and the more I questioned it the more I was dissatisfied with it. It was people like Paige, everyone in the comments, and autism self-advocacy groups that convinced me that ABA was bad and why and how there were better ways to help other people.
I think the two biggest things that got me into that work and kept me there was the "officialness" of an established clinic, all this medical stuff, and people with a lot of education in behaviorism that I didn't have assuring me that it was okay, the "we don't do ABA like that here" thing, and the kids seeming happy in the moment. I think there was also some element of "it happened to me and I turned out fine" going on too, since I was diagnosed with autism as an adult and by that point in my life suffering in silence to conform to demands was what I learned to do to survive and "function" in my family.
Above all, the focus on respecting feelings and thoughts more than just controlling what you see someone doing is what promotes kindness, empathy, and understanding for others and within yourself, and that's what's the most important. I think the whole "big emotions in a little body" thing is true, and I wish kids knew that that feeling happens to adults also, and that more adults understand that kids shouldn't get in trouble or feel bad for having big emotions and struggling to deal with that.
What was so bad about working there? All you said was that you came to realize what it was, but never elaborated
@@garrettlauderbaugh312 Is that even obligatory at this point?
Behaviorism/ABA mindset a nutshell:
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
OMFL
*until desired behaviour improves.
It is actually true:) but she talks about different behaviourism issues
“Let’s motivate her with a controlled shock”
@@kackareznickova5431 More like, "Until approved behavior improves."
No no, you really should make this. I’ve thought about this a lot and I’m so glad you’re making something about this. I know it like the back of my hand, how disgusting and horrid it is, and how it’s hurt so many people, including myself. I’ll sit back and let you unveil it. You have my sincerest gratitude
Nice way to discredit an argument by calling it disgusting and horrible without showing why. Or how it hurt so many people . You expect people to buy into your lack of argument. lazy and dishonest
for me it actually ended up being chronic kidney stones so shout out to my parents for listening to me when i was little
Lol self soothing NEVER worked for me. And crying is literally a distress signal, it’s cruel to ignore it
especially for a baby
she didn't go super in depth with that but it has been scientifically investigated and found out that "letting your kid cry" will sustainably ruin their ability to trust people and form deep and meaningful relationships with people.
which is good, when you are a n*zi dictator and want to raise a bunch of robots you can use in your wars
I am not using hyperbole here: this kind of rhetoric comes right out of n*zi times
there was a German "Psychologist" called Haarer who wrote a book about how to raise children and a big part of the book is about not "coddling" the child. ie. don't show affection and let it cry.
why is that bad for a baby?
a baby is not able to care for themselves. not having anyone take care of the baby means the baby thinks it is dyeing.
when your baby stops crying after you ignored them it means that your baby thinks it is not worth anything and that nobody cares if they died. therefore it stops crying.
it can happen that the baby will vomit all over on themselves out of fear of death.
such books say that this is normal and has to be ignored.
if people don't realize how fucked up all of that is, I can't help them lol
As a speech-language pathologist, ABA is unfortunately rampant in the field. I was lucky enough to learn from amazing and kind professors who have a very different ideology. Our motto was always if you want to have a joint experience, join in their joy, don't force them into yours. It's nice to hear that we were on the right track from someone who understands our clients' perspectives! I'd love to hear your perspective on more developmental approaches like DIR-Floortime!
Had a job as a behavioral Technician. I also have a bachelors in psychology, and was just looking for a job to get into something psych. related, and focused helping others. I always thought behaviorism was limited in theory on understanding humans in general. I quit after day two of training because I felt like I was expected to treat a person like I would with training a dog with making “demands” of the client (give me the blue maker, touch your nose), and them “working” for the rewards ( a snack, iPad time). Also the added making them physically perform a target behavior even if they don’t want too (for example touch the ball) to teach what a ball is. I fail to see why touching the ball helps teach it’s a ball especially by force? Seems more like it’s teaching compliance. It didn’t sit well with me, and I asked a lot of questions like if you could just let them not complete it (not force touching the ball), but that’s not allowed. It is noted that ABA has a high success rate etc. but honestly I think that’s because they use very authoritative tactics that don’t respect the clients full bodily autonomy and their mental health in how it’s structured. We wouldn’t teach neurotypicals this way. So, why is it ok for neurodivergents to be taught this way in a therapy treatment?
Watched the video, and it just reinforced what I was already feeling/thinking. Also her mentioning training dogs is more complex made me laugh, but also felt sad given this is used so widely for ASD treatment. 😓
I can relate to your feelings. I can say from experience that teaching students with autism is different from teaching those who are not. I felt the same way when I was told to reward my students with candy. It took everything within me to give them candy for desired behaviors. With these students, the relationships are not built as soon as you meet them. You have to find something that interest them and get them to progress using those interest. Yes, it does feel like you are training a dog. 😢 I support certain ABA strategies not all. That’s not to say I don’t love each individual student. ❤Behaviorism is real. It is not complete in of itself but it cannot be negated.
I'm a first year psych student. I started learning the basics of behaviorism this semester and it really rubbed me the wrong way right from the beginning. You articulated so well a lot of the issues that I have with it and couldn't put into words. I also hadn't made the connection that a lot of the boomer teachings that fucked us up are rooted in behaviorism or similar thinking. Very important video, thank you!
"You're not professionals, stop talking about ABA without knowing what it's about."
Susan, (or whatever the name is of whoever is saying that bs) we are indeed not professionals. We are not performing ABA or other therapies. BUT, we are the ones receiving ABA
This is difficult for me because I always feel like how I feel/act is motivated by a reason, but most of the time when I try to tell someone why I'm acting or feeling this way, what happened, etc... I feel talked OVER when they refuse to listen and bring it back to how I acted "out of line" or in a way they don't like. So I have decades of unresolved trauma feeding itself, showing it's face again and again when I have big emotions and ON TOP of said emotions, there's also a fear I'll be pushed away, rejected or abandoned for being "bad", because the other party can not FEEL my intense feelings or listen to WHY they occurred.
this is what I'm seeing currently in my masters degree in psychopedagogy, the teachers ask for essays already implying behaviorism is the right option, the most beneficial and up to date teaching style, your video will help me a lot to argue back
THANK YOU! This gets to the root of why the autistic community is against all ABA, even "new ABA." Because even if the implementation details are changed, ABA is still behaviorism. Maybe people would be less vulnerable to the new ABA argument if we talk more about the problems with behaviorism.
QuinoaRat,
ABA is a part of a bigger picture, it is part of Capitalism and behaviourists are great capitalists.
Even if we removed behaviourism from the equation we would still have autism and capitalism, it's called the "Autism Industrial Complex".
Look at how charities use Autism Awareness to gain additional donations and money, and not to help autistic people.
You're a genuious, and my atypical brain LOVES the way you explain things. I feel so much more aware of the world after watching your videos.
Thank you! You're excellent!
Me too ! It feels so familiar to me, I think Paige and I have similar thought processes hahah
Yeah the part you brought up about the DSM 5 blew my mind honestly. I never even considered that they focus so much on external appearance of symptoms in the diagnostic process!!!! That really explains why soooooo many people get misdiagnosed based on similar behavioral patterns across diagnoses, because they all have different roots and reasons "why" the actions occur in the first place.
***there is a slight error starting at 4:00 where when you say negative reinforcement when you really mean positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is taking away something the animal or person does not like to encourage the behaviour, positive punishment is adding something they don’t like to discourage the behaviour. The quadrants of training were all confused throughout the whole video, and not all of the info was accurate though I still understand the gist your points.
*edit, time stamp error
The easiest way for me to remember it is that reinforcement is ALWAYS a reward and punishment is...punishment lol. Negative (-) means take something away and positive (+) means add something. So you either +add or -remove something... To reward/reinforce or punish a behavior
No reinforcement (reward) for a kid will ever be a spanking.
I wish they had just named them more clearly though. This scheme is confusing even for people who use it kind of often. It makes it meaningless when people say "negative reinforcement," no one knows for sure what they mean without asking. I have a hard time spitting out which one i mean in spoken conversations. (i do not endorse behaviorist manipulation but it does come up)
Seems like just semantics because you can always reframe the event - e.g. electrocuting a rat is positive punishment to discourage stepping on a button but it is also negative reinforcement to reinforce not stepping on the button (with the reward of not being shocked)
This was really educational and really opened my eyes on why I feel the need to please everyone else first. Thank you I love your videos :)
Yeah same here.
Negative reinforcement is actually taking something away. Spanking is a positive punishment. A negative punishment would be taking something pleasant away.
Negative punishment is not “taking something pleasant away” it is taking away something from the environment that leads to a reduction in behavior. An example could be moving a toy out of eyesight so that the child stops asking for the toy. Negative reinforcement is taking something out of the environment in order to increase a behavior. So an example could be taking a loud sound out of the environment in order to increase one’s ability to pay attention. Negative does not mean bad, it is just referring to stimuli/environment
My issue with behaviorism is that it's such a one-dimensional approach and this essay explains its shortcomings and limitations so well. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! I love hearing criticism on psychological theories and interventions because this isn't discussed in undergraduate psychology programs.
I love this video! I was raised on behaviorism and thought that's how I was supposed to parent. I am so very sorry to my oldest that I didn't know any better. Thankfully I learned much better techniques when I had more children. My oldest, now an adult and a parent, is likely on the spectrum and I've vowed to help her get a proper diagnosis.
Sorry for the info dump, animal training is my special interest. Maybe it’ll be interesting for someone reading this to hear a dog trainers scientific perspective on behaviour therapy?
9:17 the baby sleep training example uses learned helplessness. It is a lengthy extinction process whereby a behaviour that was at one point reinforced, is no longer reinforced, therefore resulting in its cessation. Learned helplessness is extremely intrusive and aversive for the learner, and is considered unethical. You are also spot on about the attachment wounds - this happens in all species. And you’re also spot on about certain behaviours being indicative of needs. Behaviours that indicate needs should never be put on extinction as this removes the learner’s agency and ability to communicate.
14:40 note on terminology, you did a great job of conveying the essence of operant conditioning here, but to clarify for anyone reading:
Positive reinforcement - adding something desirable to increase a behaviour (like giving a cookie)
Negative reinforcement - removing something undesirable to increase a behaviour (like removing pressure)
Negative punishment - removing something desirable to decrease a behaviour (like taking away allowance)
Positive punishment - adding something undesirable to decrease a behaviour (like shouting)
And yes you’re right, classical conditioning always happens at the same time as operant conditioning. And yes, honestly I feel like you understand this a lot better than most dog trainers - aversive methods (negative reinforcement, extinction, and negative & positive punishment) can and do lead to the learner experiencing negative emotions and displaying more maladaptive behaviours. It’s like whack a mole.
21:16 if we were to take a least intrusive, minimally aversive approach to Jennifer, we would rule out medical issues (anxiety counts as a medical issue), then, you got it, make sure she knows what it feels like when her bladder is full, what to do when she needs to pee, and how to access a toilet. We could even involve her teacher in the behaviour modification process by asking them to schedule in an extra bathroom break for Jennifer. There’s an infinite ways we could manage her environment to set her up for success. The issue would likely resolve before we even need to progress to using positive reinforcement.
25:59 you’re right - autism cannot be diagnosed by behaviour. Masking is a thing, I have done it for almost 24 years. It’s about your internal experience.
Final thoughts: I was a bit worried you were gonna rip into my special interest and love and life and livelihood but actually I agree with every point you made 😅 Behaviourism does imply a hierarchy, which is shaky morally when you’re working with animals and downright abusive when you’re working with humans. Animal trainers have to get very creative and work hard to minimize this hierarchy and allow our learners to maintain control over their outcomes while still achieving our necessary goals, such as teaching the dog to sniff out a missing person, teaching the cat to consent to bathing, or teaching the hyena at the zoo to open her mouth for a dental exam. When you’re doing behaviour modification you have to be especially creative with your antecedent arrangements, because even using positive reinforcement can be aversive for say, a rescue dog who’s never even been around humans before. The problems you describe with behaviourism are very real and do cause harm. This is why in animal training we have very strict codes of ethics. It disgusts me that such codes of ethics did/do not exist for human behaviour modification, assuming that would even be a necessary approach for humans, given that we have our own species-specific ways of communicating such as talking and listening.
Neurodivergent people shouldn’t be made to change their behaviours in order to fit into neuronormative society. We need understanding. We need our needs and differences acknowledged and honoured. That is all, peace ✌️
We might not have asked for this but it was something I didn’t know I needed. How incredibly insightful and thorough! Keep up the amazing work and thanks for all you do.
It’s so weird to cure the symptoms rather than the problem that causes the symptoms
This video helped me heal a bit of myself that went through behavioral therapy as a child. Kinda like talking about trauma with a friend. Thank you Paige, I needed this.
Thank you! I will send this to people if they ask about this!
And the ending song is adorable :D
This is one of the most important videos on the internet right now. I don’t know how anyone can argue it especially after all the evidence of it not working or jump starting some other issues or traumas.
Anyway if you want to learn accounting, I would love a tutor lol. You are such a clear soothing communicator that breaks everything down and ties it up in a little bow at the end. Perfection. Thank you for this video and taking the time to educate us while also telling us your opinion 💕
hey Paige, I didn't finish watching the video yet, but on minute 4:04 you said that that was Negative Reinforcement (for the rat being electrocuted), It's actually reinforcing a behavior through Positive Punishment. Negative means REMOVAL of a stimuli, Positive means ADDING a stimuli, Punishment means when its bad, Reward means when it's good.
since this comment go a little track I'd like to make some amends. I agree and disagree with Paige on different point's she makes on this video.
Paige, if you read this I would love to have a 30 min talk with you if possible to either understand better your point of view or help you understand some of errors I perceived in this video... As we both know misinformation is Harmful and I've seen you correct mistakes before, I know you will be able to see this for what it is and not take it as a personal attack, but on addressing my objections of this video:
From my understanding of Behaviorism and what I saw presented in the video, Her understanding of Behaviorism is a ( little wrong, but not enough to matter) understanding of what Behaviorism was 100 years ago, when it started. Lucky science evolves. At one point she strawmen what behaviorism understands as an stimuli (she even mentioned ppl say it is, but ignored it[?]) regarding to hormones and that also applied for brain formation. the Nature part is taken into consideration in behaviorism the way the science is nowadays. Behaviorism also from my understand doesn't pretend to know that the cause of a behaviour is, based on the behaviour. It's the science of observing the behaviour, and stimulus, and linking them together. You only have the picture when you have both, you don't get half of the picture and paint the other half. With that being said, behaviorism is a tool. And as a tool it has jobs it do really well, and there are jobs it should not be attempted to be used in. There is also right ways to use it and wrong ways to use it. "Treating" autism with behaviorism is ridiculous because we don't need to be treated. treating gays with behaviorism is ridiculous because they don't need to be treated. we (and they) need to be accepted and included. Behaviorism doesn't do that. Behaviorism changed behaviour and the autistic person is not the one that needs the change, its the world around that does. changing the autistic person behaviour will cause harm, like in some of the examples she mentioned using a child as example. Altho it is still not the same, as if behaviorism were to be applied correct in those situation (with positive rewards instead of negative rewards of positive or negative punishments) like she did on her correct resolution of the problems (showing the child there is understanding and bringing [though behaviorism, like it or not] trust between the child and parent) changing the child behaviour without causing trauma. But also like she was trying to make the point, but different than with a child [that a lot of times just doesn't know better and DO need guidance] the autistic person usually know what they want, and if this change in behaviour is something THEY want (and not that the world is imposing) if behaviorism is applied correctly, it will be very beneficial for the individual, to achieve the goal THEY want.
I already regret making such a huge text on a youtube comment, it's just I'm very passionate about my right to exist as a regular (autistic) person, as well as I know the harm misinformation can make in the world (the biggest reason why autistic person suffer so much), and I don't want this harm to others.
The quadrants of training were confused through the whole video, though I still agree with the general points for application @paige layle
I was coming here to the comments to explain exactly that. Her info was not entirely right.
Interesting I wouldn't have known thx for sharing
@@Remy572 she is uneducated and naive. She's very pretty though.
@@inaraandrade2258 not entirely. She has no idea what she's talking about more often then not. She is adorable though
i don't know what behaviorism/behaviourism is but i have a feeling once the concept of it is explained to me it may make me roll my eyes into the back of my skull
That was an amazing explanation! Definitely will be hearing this again many times. Thank you very much!
I 100% agree with this and am so thankful that you made this video bc it explains everything so well! Maybe one day I'll show this to my mom lmfao
Thank you for putting into words something I've been struggling to communicate for a long time now. There's so much going on on the inside that's completely overlooked, this video resonated with me more than anything ever
this was incredibly insightful and fascinating, loved it! thank you
im really happy about this video! Just want to inform, negative reinforcement is not the same thing as punishment. this is such a helpful video, there’s so much to delve into and research after viewing. much love
This video is cogent and well researched! Thank you for making it and helping us to be more informed. One sort of nit-picky criticism: I'm pretty sure negative reinforcement is not the same as punishment. Negative reinforcement is a behavior reinforcer that takes the form of removing an unpleasant stimulus as a reward rather than introducing a positive stimulus.
Positive reinforcement- here's a cupcake, thanks for being awesome.
Negative reinforcement- I'll do that annoying chore for you today, thanks for being awesome.
Positive punishment- you must do extra chores today; think about what you've done wrong to deserve this
Negative punishment- no Nintendo switch for you today cause of yesterday, you should think about what's wrong with you instead.
Excellent explanation ☺️
yes this, but either way her point is clear so thanks for sharing paige!
I agree; her message is not at all undermined by this. Very important video
@@gabby222themoon I don't think so- this oversight suggests to me that this video could have been better researched.
I thought this video was awesome and reminded me of a quote from Thich Nhat Nhan, "When you plant lettuce, if it does not grow well, you don’t blame the lettuce. You look for reasons it is not doing well. It may need fertilizer, or more water, or less sun. You never blame the lettuce. Yet if we have problems with our friends or family, we blame the other person. But if we know how to take care of them, they will grow well, like the lettuce. Blaming has no positive effect at all, nor does trying to persuade using reason and argument. That is my experience. No blame, no reasoning, no argument, just understanding. If you understand, and you show that you understand, you can love, and the situation will change.” I agreed so much with your very wise point of view and was reminded for my own parenting. My 3 year old daughter was just diagnosed with high functioning autism. Like you, she is awesome and isn't afraid to show it and I will always celebrate her uniqueness and have a passion to learn more about her, myself and others. It is such a gift to have such a bright and brilliant young lady like you to listen to who knows first hand. Thank you for sharing your kick but thoughts and self with us TH-camrs!
This is amazing, ty so much. I honestly think this is one of the biggest problems with our society rn. and why so many of us are traumatized people pleasers.
Paige that was insightful, and it did help change my mind about behaviorism/behavioral therapy in particular. Your examples were excellent, I’ll be reflecting on those in the coming days I’m confident. I’d like to incorporate similar sounding methods when I become a parent someday in response to whatever challenges my child/children may face. Thank you so much for doing this, for putting the work in. I really appreciate it. Also, your end card video song is fabulous and fun and lovely and I listened to it a few times! 🙌🏼✨💓🙏🏼🔥
PLEASE do a video on autiehd and driving! im 18 and havent learned to drive because i have lovley driving anxiety. Love your vids!
This is absolutely fantastic and a lot of what you said I’ve been thinking but haven’t been able to put it into words! The way you talk about it being people pleasing is absolutely spot on, thank you for this I’m going to share it 💪🏻
I worked as a speech pathologist for a while and there was a lot of behaviourism in many of the therapy techniques we were taught. Luckily post-graduating I quickly discovered attachment-informed therapy and and DIR which helped me understand how counter-productive and HARMFUL using a behaviour-based approach actually is!
This video was so clear, concise, well presented and extremely entertaining- you're a very talented youtuber
I did my undergrad at a school that emphasizes behaviorism over all other psych theories (lame). I’m also recently diagnosed ASD (slay). Here’s my super long-winded, pre-video take!
I knew nothing about behaviorism when I started my undergrad, and I honestly disliked it right away. The whole idea of behaviorism just seems contradictory to the reasons I wanted to go into psych in the first place. I went into psych because I wanted to understand everyone’s unique, complex thought processes and feelings, and help them make positive change from the inside out. Behaviorism just isn’t it for me, never was, even before learning about the use of ABA for autism.
I do think behaviorism as a whole may have some useful applications, outside of the context of individual “therapy”. For example, I took a class on behavioral approaches to sustainability, where behavioral principles are used primarily in large-scale settings to promote more environmentally friendly behaviors in the public. The ideas and studies presented in the class seemed ethical and overall really useful. I also took a class on organizational psych where behavioral strategies are used to maximize efficiency in the workplace. The strategies taught in that class honestly seemed a lot more reasonable and pro-employee than most management approaches I tend to hear about irl. But I know pretty much nothing about the business world so don’t take my word for it lol, that was just my overall impression.
When it comes down to it though, I barely even view behaviorism as psychology (at least in my mind) and I don’t support ABA clinics. I don’t like the whole practice of using behaviorism as the primary form of treatment for individuals in a therapeutic setting, *especially* for people who are already marginalized, chronically misunderstood, and at a high risk for abuse as is. It just doesn’t make sense to me logically or ethically. To be clear, I never took any classes on ABA for the autistic population. I opted out of the (way too many) practicum and work opportunities for ABA clinics, so I never got a firsthand look at the training that ABA techs go through. I’m definitely glad I stayed away from that realm of things, but I kinda wish I could’ve been a fly on the wall just to see for myself.
Two behaviorists sleep together, afterward, one says to the other "Well, that was good for you, but how was it for me?"
Standing ovation! This was GENIUS! Loved it!
Incredible video, very well done. Your analogy with Lake Ontario was spot-on!
I’m studying early childhood development (I want to become a teacher), and one of the perks of my studies is the different pedagogy you learn that people use when teaching children. Behaviourism is definitely the most old-fashioned ways of teaching, since applying it to a classroom setting would mean just talking *at* children and expecting them to copy down what you are saying with no further discussion.
I brought this up to my teachers in college and talked to them how behaviourism was a flawed way of teaching children while using my own experiences to justify it. Most of my own time in school was spent following what my teachers said and silently copying it down, and as an autistic child, it was absolute hell. Although some behaviourist methods are useful (such as operant conditioning), it is an outdated approach that sees children as drones and not unique human beings who learn in different ways. Seriously, every other pedagogy is more useful than this style of teaching.
What I’m thankful for is the huge push schools now how in more modern approaches like cognitivism, connectivism, humanism and constructivism. These approaches to teaching are giving the new generation a better environment to grow in, since I remember having meltdowns almost every day over school when I was a child. It’s good seeing schools adapt and think of new healthy ways to teach children with. And I hope to see that continue in the near future.
I finally finished watching your video. Here are my 2 cents. Behaviorism is a study of behavior. It is not right or wrong. It is simply a collection of evidence over a period of time. Same as any other field of study. You can see it as a tool, like a hammer. It is not the hammer that is wrong, it is what you do with it. You can bash someone's head with a hammer, or you can build a house. There are two key figures in the field of behaviorism. First and probably the most famous is B.F. Skinner. His approach to behaviorism was very different than the current implementations (which are the faults of the second figure that I will mention next). However, B.F. Skinner wanted to use behaviorism to make significant improvements in education. His ideas were very good, and in my view would have been effective. Using his findings, a few programs were created and were very successful. Due to financial and societal reasons, major improvements in education did not fit well with the western society, so it was put on a back burner, and eventually just forgotten. Second and probably the main character that is at fault for such bad rep of behaviorism today is Ivar Lovaas. This character was mostly a loser and didn't achieve much in his early career, until he discovered that behaviorism can be used to "treat" autsitc children. Most of his studies have been disputed and a lot of his writings are him basking the credit for creating and "successfully" implementing ABA to "treat" autism. If you read any of his publications, you get a picture of a man that has not been blessed with success for most of his life, and one day he just by accident "discovers" this miracle cure that everyone wanted. He boasts about how his practice grew and how amount of people that he supervised exploded. He was mostly concerned with his own fame and fortune at a cost of those that had to endure his treatment. Very unfortunate. The main reason why ABA as it is used today is rejected by an autistic community is because it is being misused. The main culprit that causes damage is unrealistic expectations of parents, drastic psychological state of children when they begin treatment, and financial incentive on the side of the clinic to keep "treating" the patient. It is not the children that should be subjected to ABA. The parents needs to be educated in the foundational behaviorism concepts, so they can be better parents (in case of autistic children, they basically need to be), which will allow them to prevent their children from reaching the extremes when an intervention of some sort becomes absolutely required.
Yes!!!! Thank you! Behavior analysis, based on radical behaviorism, is really the study of behavior, it is a science. It was refreshing to read you view on this! It is so sad that people misuse stuff from this field of knowledge. Because when well used, it can be of such a great help to people. :)
Agreed!
Yessss thank you for typing all of this out.
Thank you, sadly the people in this comment section aswell as the creator are not very nuanced and careful concerning their use of language, even some people in the comments who had formal psychology education dont know what they are talking about or are willfully misunderstanding the concepts.
You forgot to mention Lovaas co-invented gay conversion therapy. He was more than a loser. He was a monster.
This video has so many things I never thought of before. Thank you for making it.
Maybe none asked for it but even before watching I am sure THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF VIDEO THAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR.
Just yesterday, I took a look into my Psychology book from my first year of High School. It has stuff written about positive reinforcement and conditioning of first & 2nd degree (not sure if that's the correct term in english, hope you know what I mean) without stopping a SINGLE TIME TO ASK whether this behaviour should be changed, for what reason the behaviour even exists, what the need behind it is and so on.
No questions asked, just shown how to change it, without caring a single moment, how those 'tactics' might seriously affect a child in the negative.
It really screwed with my mind last night, that THIS is what one is thought in Psychology. The needs of a child get completely overlooked and aren't cared for at all.
Nah page, mentally I did absolutely ask for this video last night, so THANK YOU for putting it out here (and at the perfect time too haha)!!
Thank you for speaking on the crying baby scenario. I was that baby. That baby got out of the tall crib but couldn't fall safely to the floor. That baby stood crying and hangjng onto the crib rails, until doing so half asleep. Eventually my mom came in and picked me up. I was raised on this story during my formative years, as a comedy. But nearing 40s soon I see clearly what it was. Now I'm just so thankful that baby survived. 💜 There can be better.
This video is so important, thank you.
Thanks for talking about letting your baby cry themselves to sleep it also rlly damages there ability to self regulate and bring down there own anxiety levels because a parent calming a baby actually teaches there nervous system how to calm itself. This should be abuse
From the research I could find, the medical community disagrees. Of course, you do need to check if there is something wrong with the baby, but often babies just will cry when before they fall asleep. I also found several studies stating that there is not behavioral or emotional differences in a child after being left to cry, or having been attended too.
@@isaacgates5859 ok so after reading that paper and many others I know see your side, really you've changed my mind
@@isaacgates5859 but in the paper you sent me the emphasis was on the fact that it worked and in the end they don't really know wether the baby is self soothing or in extreme stress that the baby knows no one will respond to
@@isaacgates5859 I won't judge people for it as harshly anymore since its not so clear but I would not do it
@@isaacgates5859 the studies on cortisol were too small and there really isn't a way to measure stress
I really loved this video! This was very thorough and logical in how you portrayed the behaviorism approach vs. the cognitive/neuroscientific approach for things, especially with the examples about raising children. It's always kind of been muddy waters for me when thinking about how I'd raise my future kids, but what you detailed made perfect sense to me and perfectly put into words how I'd love to approach parenting!
I also didn't think about behaviorism before as such a concrete concept, more as a set of observations, but this video was very informative in the ways it affects the world, so thank you!!
I totally asked for this video, and I'm glad you made it! This pretty much sums up how I feel about behaviorism. I'm so glad I quit that old daycare job I worked at and now I work at a new daycare that's child-led. We like to emphasize that crying is encouraged because it is okay to cry and express your feelings. We also provide the comfort needed to the children so that they can rely on us to help them through their tough times. So the daycare is pretty much everything behaviorism is not.
I just realized my ex did this to me... And I've come out more traumatized than I already was. Masking more than I already was to the point I mask when I'm alone..
Paaaaige. Literally watching your video while waiting for my appointment in exactly 38 minutes. So nervous. 3rd appt we go over results today and I'm terrified everything will be invalidated once again and brushed off as nothing. I'm excited to finally be here at the "final" appt, but so nervous. Wish me luck with getting my diagnosis.
EDIT: I've been officially diagnosed finally :)
Thank you ❣️ I feel like it was really important for me to hear this since I didn't know what behaviourism even meant. Very interesting & helpful, really hope to see more longer educational videos like this. Take care 😉
your videos are sooo insightful thank u
Yes, absolutely love you spittin these FACTS on FACTS!! Crazy how ppl will argue with psychology-- SCIENCE 🤯 even many professionals within the field itself. 😔 But thankfully there are still good ones staying current on the research and spreading the word. ♡♡
Not officially diagnosed autistic, but would be surprised if I'm not. I grew up with a lot of sensory issues that created a lot of unwanted behaviors, including what I now know was urgency incontinence. Your example was my daily life, and really struck a chord. Getting punished constantly as a child for things you have no control over can have serious effects when they grow to adulthood. I constantly had to choose between major discomfort I struggled to contain or being shouted at and hit growing up. I still suffer from pretty bad anxiety and still have a speech impediment from the habit of carefully choosing my every word. It was also very jarring when I grew up and other people didn't react this way.
This message is so important, thank you for sharing. I’m very passionate about this as someone who grew up being a people pleaser and still working on being my own person. We must go to the source as you mentioned. I will use this for the kids I teach as well. ❤
I needed every part of this video. Thank you so much for sharing your views and putting words to what I've been feeling!
Adding on.. I'm realizing that behaviorism has played a big role in ruining my self image/esteem and ability to function in society. I literally don't know how to live for myself. I seek permission or external validation and reasons for everything all the way down to simple everyday choices.
Really good content and delivery, im learning a lot from this
Not really. Do more Research.
Yeah well it was a good introductory
Yeah I'm learning some here too..
@@gislannaepstein8582 What's your research, if you don't believe this?
2:09 "dog guy, rat gut, mean to children guy" 😆👍😢
11:00 "attachment wounds" is a phrase I've not heard before and it sums up well what I'm thinking about today. ❤️👍
Also, clarification for viewers:
Gay conversation therapy doesn't make you gay; it's when "therapy" (coercion) is used on a queer person to make them "straight," or at least behave like they are.
Scientifically, positive and negative reinforcement are about adding or removing factors, not whether the subject feels positive or negative about those factors, but culturally we tend to say "positive reinforcement" to mean we reward kids with something they actually like, instead of hitting or otherwise punishing for undesired behaviors.
Great video! Looking forward to the rest.
13:07 yes!
This video is extremely well done. Thank you for posting this!!
great video, and the part about the dsm is super insightful. I have adhd, but several of the diagnostic behaviors dont apply to me for various other reasons and can never be fully descriptive of the entire group.
Oh so I have done very little research on behaviourism, but before the video continues…. I like to think of it as a disregard for intent. Intent has always seemed very important to me because without it we are all guessing things about one another based on behaviour, even if we clarify otherwise. Declaring intent is one of the most honest forms of communication in my opinion, that way conflict and miscommunication can be resolved with appreciation for each person’s feelings and thought process. At least in theory…
This is interesting, because when I hear "intent doesn't matter" the first thing that comes to mind is those stupid "woke" DEI trainings. I suppose one could conceive of them as a kind of behaviorism, intended to block real conversations about race, gender, etc through negative reinforcement...
However, as best I can tell they are also totally ineffective at doing anything other than diverting money into the pockets of DEI trainers and giving big corporations an out against lawsuits.
You should make more longer videos! This is great
I can't stress enough how important the information in this video is, thank you for sharing your perspective
even as a kid it didn't make sense to me why my mom took my things if i didn't do what she wanted or did something bad. to me it didn't seem logical since it would just make me want to do or not do the thing to get my belongings back, not whatever the actual reason was. i even tried to explain that to her AS A CHILD but she didn't seem to get it and didn't back down. this made my childhood very confusing at times and is what i believe to be one of the main reasons i struggle A LOT to take care of myself as an adult. i didn't learn i should go to bed on time because i learned to link it with feeling healthier or HOW to even keep a healthy sleep schedule, i did it because otherwise mom would take my phone or be disappointed. now that i'm an adult the threat of my parents punishments, my learned motivation for taking care of myself is gone, leaving me with a huge disconnection from the consequences of neglecting my health. i was given punishment where i should have been given tools.
Behaviorism sounds like slave owners' rhetoric. As an autistic person who grew up masking, it's indeed invalid.
You mask. That's self induced behavioral therapy
How many people liked your comment and have clue what you're talking about 🤣🤣😂
@@gislannaepstein8582 exactly my point
@@eugeneimbangyorteza with friends we have spun the theory that a big part of modern society is using what you call slave owner rhetoric to gaslight us into giving up our boundaries to accept the unacceptable methods of capitalism where in we are mere cogs in a machine and not regarded human beings with feelings anymore.
when one of our teeth breaks and we therefore don't run smoothly in the machine anymore, it is definitely our fault, not the machine for breaking us.
it is so important to realize that and break out of it.
realize boundaries are important and That no. you do not have to take every Bullshit from other people.
you do not have to accept a pay that makes it difficult to pay rent at the end of month.
you do not have to accept creepy bosses because you require money (and therefore a job) to live
you do not have to accept people meddling in your personal life, because they think you need to achieve (like marrying and having kids)
Its ok to cut people out of your life that don't respect you
it's ok to quit a job that does not respect you
it is ok to join a union to be able to fight for jobs treating you better
@@gislannaepstein8582 You're not a better example yourself, mister troll.
I read about behaviourism literally yesterday! I do not believe in it at all. I think it’s HARMFUL in so many ways. The main one being masking. (To take one example from how it affects me)
Happy to see you posted!
Holy wow, my mind was just opened. All I do is to try and make others happy because then they won't hurt me.
But now at 31 I've only just learnt I'm able to say no, I still struggle to make any decision unless I ask anyone.
I have struggled to ever feel like an adult, and I was always told one day I'd be one, and nope. I have a child and still feel like a child.
Thank you for helping me to try to unlearn it all... slowly somehow.
Also it's so oversimplified and condescending, like we aren't capable of critical thought without being programmed.
I am an adult with ADHD who was diagnosed as a kid, and it took a long time to figure myself out in that area. I find behavioral therapy to be very helpful, more so than medication has been. That being said, I think it is something specific to individuals and their goals. I don't think its right for everyone to be forced to accomplish goals all the same way (like schools often impose on people). I do think that classical conditioning can be very good, in the right scenarios. It only "works" with the right temperments and motivations. But it can absolutely become horrific if it isn't done well. But those Brat dolls I got for acing my spelling tests, and money I earned for my good grades, were the only things keeping me going in school. Short term rewards were far more effective... I think nothing is ever cut and dry. Nothing at all. You have to pay attention to who you're working with, and think about who are you to them (authority/safety/etc). It's relational, there should be understood interaction boundaries thar are specific to the relationship and the task at hand. For example, it's appropriate for my parents to say I can have a treat and stay up late for my x behavior goal being met. (That I understand and am also motivated for) It would not be appropriate for a therapist to allocate this.
I love your videos so much, I always learn something about myself and how to navigate the world better. Thank you!! 🥰
I had accidents in elementary school one year bc this teacher said not to ask to go to the bathroom, but it felt weird to just leave - especially when you don't know when the right/wrong times are.