@@lifewasgiventous1614 I’m in no way saying that this would help you, but while you’re struggling with this, visit a Confessional Lutheran church since my experience is that it’s the perfect balance between Scripture and tradition, preaching and liturgy. Watch videos from Jordan B Cooper, Bryan Wolfmueller and Will Weeden if you want to get familiar with the theology. We Christians are not called to have this anxiety-we should have gospel assurance! God bless you on your journey
@@lifewasgiventous1614 Maybe the struggle will help grow your faith in the long run. It's a way more interesting and less horrific test of faith than Job's 😂
Do not worry. Once you decide, your faith will be stronger. I recommend that you study the Church Fathers before making your decision. I was a Protestant and am now a Catholic. I would say that I know more reasons to be Catholic than a cradle Catholic does. 😅
Stop looking at apologetics, and read your Bible through once or twice and cultivate your prayer life and good works. It'll take you a year or two. Don't worry, people won't stop arguing on the internet in the meantime. Protestant former Catholic here, for the record.
Austin, I'm in this position you're talking about...between cities , no gas...cant go back to protestantism because well, once that bell's been rung it cant be un-rung.....just you wait until that first baby of yours is born ..... the angst and frustration exponentially increases. To be responsible for your own soul is one thing, but to decide if and when and by whom your child is baptized, chrismated and communed.... having my first child is what initiated me going down the " who has authority" rabbit hole.... God have mercy . I love your content, thank you!
This. For a long time, I thought it was okay to simply hold an opinion on these matters and simply know it for myself, but once you have a child.. you realize the depth of your responsibility to bring others along with you into the truth so that they don’t have to walk through the desert themselves.
I became a Christian at 17 in a non denom / evangelical church and absorbed everything. There were great things and not so great things, but I couldn't recognise those because of an elevated view of my church. When I realised they weren't right about everything, I had a faith crisis about what was actually true and then rebuilt my faith by listening to Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic and reading lots of C.S Lewis... For now I've stayed at my non denom church though I find people can be dismissive of other denominations (though many churches are), whilst I'm exploring. From my faith crisis, I learnt I'm not going have 100% certainty about everything, that God has not abandoned me because of my not knowing but that He loves me, so I keep seeking and learning, trusting He will lead.
This feels like a warm embrace from a mentor saying, “I understand your confusions and doubts, and I want you to lean into that doubt and ask Jesus once again to show himself.” Thank you!
Thank you for your candidness, Austin. It's clear your quest for ecclesial certainty hasn't been easy, but I pray you reach your destination. God bless you, brother!
Kierkegaard is actually what kept me in the Christian faith. I read Fear and Trembling in college (actually in a class with Suan Sonna, whom I am sure you know). I was really struggling with my Calvinist/Southern Baptist faith at the time and his "leap of faith" really kept me from falling into complete shambles. A couple years later, after a long journey much like your own, I took a new (and more sturdy) "leap" and joined the Catholic Church and haven't looked back! My Faith has increased by x100 in ways I could never have imagined. I am so thankful!
Kierkegaard is hilarious, he would have been a comedian in the modern times. Our last great philosopher truth tellers, the comedian laughs at all,his dispair.
you might enjoy Cornelio Fabro's work on Kierkegaard. He was a Thomist Italian priest of the last century who loved Kierkegaard and thought many people got him wrong.
I think that’s the whole point of reality. The searching, the longing, the moments of epiphany…it’s like your soul is guiding you, nudging you along gently, giving you winks that you’re on the right path. The fact that an aha! moment leads to yet another search is the riddle. The point of it all is enjoying the journey, not the destination. Once you enjoy life, you have it all. Like, once you realize you’re playing hide and seek with yourself, you can then realize you are allowed to have fun with it, and not stress that you can’t find the answer. The answer is within, not without.
Austin, my wife and I sat down to listen to this one together after church today. We had a great conversation and it was a great blessing to us in our own journey. Wish I could deliver this thank you in person. May God bless you.
Brother Austin, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your faith journey with us! I love your knowledge and humility. Keep up the great work, my friend!
Hey Austin! I appreciate the video. I think I found it at just the right time because I’m in the same boat as others here in the comment section. I grew up in a Oneness Pentecostal church and left it at 25 years old. 10 years later and here I am praising God that I’ve felt His calling in my life again and I’m ready to answer! So I started reading my bible again and I’ve been watching apologetics and learning about church history the past couple of weeks and although I feel it has solidified my faith in God more than ever, it has also taken me down the rabbit hole of which is the “true church”. And like most can attest IT IS TIRING! I feel like I’m going to “roam the meadows” as you put it and just let the Holy Spirit guide me and let me know if I am where I belong. God bless you, Austin and again thank you for sharing! 🙏🏽
Man, you just nearly perfectly described the place I'm in right now. You were able to articulate my own thoughts and feelings better than I could myself. Sincerely, thank you
I can empathize with you Austin. I went through something similar although not exactly the same thing. I was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic school up until the 8th grade. It was all I knew. Then at the age of 18 I met some evangelical Christians (I wasn't familiar with that term and they didn't ever refer to themselves as such) who taught me the Bible and shared the gospel with me, something that was very new to me. I had been told the Catholic Church was the true church founded by Jesus Himself but also believed what I was reading in the Bible. After several months of wrestling with this I finally realized that I had never actually trusted Jesus as Savior and Lord (really didn't know what this meant) and made the decision to do this publicly then was baptized about a year later. I never considered myself as "converting" to Protestantism or becoming a Baptist (that was the denomination I attended at the time). I felt I was simply trusting in Jesus and being born again for the first time. That was over forty years go. Over the years I struggled with my faith in different ways but always came back to the Lord. Today, I am pastoring a small Pentecostal church and love serving the Lord. I have since come to have a great respect for the Catholic Church in many ways but still hold to my faith in Jesus.
This video was a breath of fresh air, and describes my experience exactly. I’ve “deconstructed” my Protestantism, but now I’m unable to totally convince myself of Orthodoxy or Catholicism (due to what at least appear to me to be accretions, like icon veneration). It’s like I’ve got nowhere else to go. No matter which option I take (Prot, EO, RC), there’s going to be some nagging question I have about an important matter for which there doesn’t appear to be an answer. No matter what I’m going to have to consent to things that I just don’t believe are true. I like to think it’s not just a matter of “where do I tolerate this doubt? What’s the safest option?” I really hope and pray I can come to some semblance of certainty. Please pray for me.
God bless you in your journey Austin. As someone who is on a journey to find where I feel God is leading me and where I best fit in the ecclesial landscape, I can relate to several aspects that were covered in this video. My advice from what I’ve experienced is draw near to God, this is a journey to spend in devotion and communion with him. The more I’ve found I’ve leaned in there, the more this journey, with its complexities of history and its nuances, start to feel like less of a big challenge and more like an exciting adventure, one that just might take a lifetime, but one that’s worth it for growing closer to God all the same.
The problem is the only way to be orthodox is to agree to what they refute now to which they already agreed with. They break apart as well. Not as much as Protestants but it seems to accelerate they are not unified in theology as a whole. To be truly Orthodox one should be Eastern Catholic. There is unity AND the mystery to which they hold.
@@catholicguy1073 I'm curious as to what you are referring to. The same can be said about the Roman Catholic Church. As someone who is in this "no mans land" of trying to discern everything, it becomes exhausting.
@@aidanhansemann1212 if you are drawn to Orthodoxy, true Orthodoxy is to be Eastern Catholic such as Byzantine, Maronite etc. Orthodoxy affirmed the Indefectability of the Pope for example at the 6th Ecumenical Council. Orthodoxy also rejects other teachings today that they once held.
Thank you. This view helps me if only in that it reminds me I'm not alone in feeling this way. Also the reminder I don't need absolute certainty is much needed 😅
@GospelSimplicity I admire your honesty and perseverance so much Austin. We are all cheering for you, and I know God certainly is as well! I don’t know if these following reflections will be particularly helpful but I did want to share something out of my own experience. When I was converting two years ago, besides studying the historical niceties, I was also looking for simpler narratives that a common person could use to find the Church Jesus established. I call this “Fisherman epistemology” because I sometimes think a more bone-headed approach to ecclesiology can be more beneficial than trying to always be figuring out stuff like, say, the Symachian forgeries or the Pope Vigilius I incident or whatever (and believe me, I did that). A lot of these ideas came from appropriating some of C. S Lewis’s thinking and transposing it into a different context.
@GospelSimplicity The first idea I had was what I liked to call “Mere Apostolicity,” a notion where one considers it at least more probable than not that the doctrinal development broadly seen in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox is likely valid, especially given their broad agreement. I don’t think it’s very controversial to secular historians that every existing church body before the Reformation broadly held to doctrines that conflict with much of historic and contemporary Protestant belief. I don’t mean this to say that means Protestantism is automatically wrong; I mean that as just a sort of statement of fact from which we can draw some probable conclusions. The first is that even if pre-Reformation history can appear self-contradictory and problematic at times, it is likely more intellectually prudent and conservative to try to resolve those difficulties rather than establish an alternate doctrinal system that can’t establish itself from a large-picture point of view of history and that can only really attempt to validate itself by trying to point out falsification events or historical doctrinal difficulties in those Apostolic churches. And if Protestantism tries to establish its contours through Scripture, it then has to accept the very heavy intellectual tension of believing that the people who compiled the scriptures and spoke the original languages of scripture interpreted the scriptures incorrectly in the same way across geographic boundaries without any real modes of rapid communication. I think it’s more likely to assume they interpreted scripture in broadly the same way because that’s what the scriptural texts actually meant.
@GospelSimplicity The second idea I had was to apply C. S Lewis’s Trilemma as a criterion for finding the Church Jesus established (unfortunately as I learned later, Peter Kreeft had already done this. Darn.) For example, if the Church is the body of Christ, it necessarily shares His personal characteristics while accomplishing and sustaining His mission. Which Church evangelized the world and changed the global religious landscape the most over the longest stretch of time? Which Church speaks with authority and stands serene in what it believes, not having to constantly live in a state of strained self-justification, contradistinction, or contra-definition to other groups? But moreover, what Church is most like a liar or a lunatic? Which Church has the largest, most infuriating, and potentially most arrogant out of all existing Christian bodies’ claims, and which Church has all other Christian bodies in opposition to its core doctrines, as well as the whole world attacking it? Which Church calls for a wager that even Pascal would quake in his boots at? Well that’s clear-the Catholic Church. Either it is the one true Church, or, as John Henry Cardinal Newman intimated, it is the most diabolical construction mankind ever conceived. Therefore, it’s the Church that seemed the most like Jesus. Anyway, once I fit the big rocks inside the jar, I could trust that the little rocks would somehow fit around it, even if I didn’t understand. Just because I didn’t understand how some of little rocks would fit didn’t mean the big rocks didn’t fit. And it’s expected anyway-I’m a finite human being, and it’s not like all the papyrus recording church history survived from history, so it’s not like it’ll make complete sense anyway. But then the real clencher was when I thought of the fact that this whole fiasco could’ve been avoided if the Holy Spirit didn’t have Matthew write chapter 16, verse 18, of that bothersome gospel of his, or that Jesus was either very dumb or just plain spiteful to name Peter, “Rock” when it would be so easy to misinterpret Peter as the foundation of the Church, then that was it for me. As Agatha Christie’s Hercule Poirot would say, “the psychology didn’t work.” It’s like a Baptist writing 1 Peter 3:21; why would they make a verse that difficult for themselves? And that, broadly speaking, is why I’m Catholic.
I like the idea of fisherman epistemology, though I'm not sure how clear it is that the Catholic Church makes the boldest claims (the Lewis Trilemma). Orthodox claims seem more exclusive, and thus more bold, than post-Vatican 2 Catholic Claims. I also don't know how you can have all other bodies in opposition to its core doctrines while still claiming a mere apostolicity.
@GospelSimplicity thanks for taking the time to reply to my comment Austin! Means a lot! Are you referring to EO as being more soteriologically exclusive in their interpretation of there not being salvation outside of the Church? I’d agree with that if that’s what you’re saying. I am more so thinking that in terms of authority claims, Rome makes the most outrageous and far-reaching ones out of all the Apostolic churches, and that it fits the Lewis Trilemma in that way I suppose. Like Rome is the boldest in how it conceives of itself. But I certainly see what you are saying about the other Sees not approving of certain Papal doctrines (especially I’d say Papal Supremacy) as being a point against its apostolicity. But conversely, to focus on Papal Supremacy, I do think that there is an interesting parallel between how people rebelled against the Lordship and Authority of Christ, and rathered to call Him a liar or a lunatic, and how people reject Rome. In other words, it wouldn’t surprise me if deficient forms of Christianity would do this as well to the true Church.
@@andrewvargas9574 to me a much more honest reading of history is that Rome went power mad and broke away from the rest of the patriarchs. I also agree with Austin in that post Vatican 2 Catholicism, the claims of exclusivity are more watered down. I would say the Orthodox make the boldest claims (unapologetically the one true church, no sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, etc)
It's nice to see that me and my Fiancé are not the only ones in the world going through this. You get caught in this theological no man's land that leaves you feeling disoriented and disconnected from those around you. We have enough convictions in our reformed baptist church where all of our relationships now feel like people are only trying to "save" us and disappointed in our search. Meanwhile, people also seeming concerned for our wedding in January and even alluding to it not being good to do. We feel like we are alone in this entirely. What we thought was a pursuit for truth and Jesus has resulted in broken relationships and misplaced judgment. Our middle ground as of late is attending Catholic Mass on Wednesday and our home church on Sundays. I remind myself that before they hated me, they hated Him.
I don't mean to intrude but are you and your Fiancé on the same page about this direction you are heading? If not, how are you handling that? I ask because I've started the same walk as you have. Also in like manner, I have a girlfriend and we have been talking about getting engaged. The thing is, that at the moment, she doesn't have the same convictions that I do. To be fair, I just started down this path around the start of summer. It was just recently that I voiced my thoughts about what I've been learning to her and a few others. I'm concerned because this isn't something that works itself out quickly.
@@aidanhansemann1212 My Fiance and I are on the same page yes. We have slightly different focuses in our convictions i.e. she is heavily focused on the meaning of the Eucharist/Communion whereas I am focused on the issue of church unity and Sola Scriptura. I am sorry you are in a tough place with your convictions and subsequently where that leads your relationship. I am only 22, so I am in no position to give sound wisdom on a situation like this. However, I can tell you how it has played out in our relationship. We trust one another enough, so if I bring concerns to her or she brings them to me we will both take the time to listen to the other one and hear each other out. So that is how this started for us, I started questioning things and she started listening and hearing my valid convictions. She went ahead and started reading church fathers, listening to other viewpoints etc. because she wanted to give my convictions a fair evaluation. She found herself in the same place as me in the end. We talk about it consistently and tell eachother what new things we learned each day. This happened post engagement though. I personally, and I emphasize that this is me, I personally value my Fiance's willingness to go through the tough times with me head on and wrestle with tough questions and probably wouldn't want to be with her if this was absent from our relationship. I question things all the time and know this about myself and I need someone who is willing to do that too. I had no fear coming to her and telling her these things because I knew she would walk with me through it. Even if she wasn't personally convicted about it and I was, she would follow my lead because she trusts my judgement. And this goes for me too, if she is convicted, I am going to give her thoughts my attention and try to see where she's coming from and if it makes sense. I knew this before we got engaged though because we have dealt with a lot of external issues since we started dating. I am sorry this is happening for you too. It is a scary and difficult place to find yourself. I wish I could just go back to feeling secure and comfortable with what I was doing. However, I don't think that's what we ought to do to be followers of Christ. If me and my fiance were still dating and I had these concerns, I would point blank ask her how she feels now that I am not really secure in our denomination and don't know where I will land in the future. If she is totally against it and not willing to search with me, or did search and still felt like I was coming to the wrong conclusion, I think the right answer is that I couldn't marry her because our family, in the future, needs to be aligned. However, I also would examine her convictions and see if they are valid. If we simply will not agree or be open to new things, I don't think for me it would've been right to ask her to marry her. I know that was long, hope it helps. If you need another dude to talk to and would like to talk more let me know on here and I'll leave my instagram, discord or something else under the comment
@@TheRighteousBeggar Thanks for the reply man, I really appreciate it! Don't sell yourself to short, I think that the advice you gave is pretty good. In Job 32, Elihu is a good example that wisdom doesn't necessarily come with age. Anyway, like you said in your original comment, it is nice to know that I'm not the only one going through this. It's kind of interesting, you and I have a similar story right now and we are both the same age. We could definitely talk later, drop your discord and we can chat sometime. God Bless!
Something that has helped me was to humble myself and understand that these decisions are as much if not more spiritual than they are intellectual. Going to God with authentic humility asking him to direct my steps alongside spiritual decernment has been instrumental in my journey. To sum it up, trust the Lord, test run the faith of the church your investigating in its most normal form, pray, and see if it yields a Godly fruit. Praying for you.
Very good advice. As a recent convert to the Catholic church I would echo your comments. Also asking Our Lady for her guidance was vital in my own journey.
Man, remember the good ol’ days when we had ecclesial certainty? Childhood was amazing in more ways than one. Sometimes, I wonder if I would be better off if I just shut down my brain.
As a theologian with conviction about the "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" verse... I often agree with that thought. Theology is important for the minds of humanity. Yet, it has generated justifications for profound divisions in the body of Christ.
Idk I never had theological certainty even as a child. Growing up Methodist I saw all the other denominations that surround us and wondered why we all believed different things.
thank you for this video - it came as a blessing with truly providential timing. i've been struggling a lot with a somewhat similar sense of ecclesial angst and the desire for absolute (or, frankly, even sufficient) certainty about the 'one true church'-ness of an ecclesial institution. the language you shared in this of standing at the dizzying edge of the chasm, teetering on whether to (or: whether it is possible to) make that leap of faith across, is so apt and really gave me language for a piece of my current experience. thank you for sharing this (i love the philosophy as well! always down for that), and i will keep you in my prayers for your own spiritual journey. even without certainty or resolution to the question of ecclesial angst and claims, lean into the absurdity, the chaos, the disorientation. God is bigger than it all. blessings to you, Austin.
I got lost in the first half but the second half felt more clear. I like the question of if the church is an object of our faith. I'll need to chew on that for a while. I grew up Protestant but started getting interested in Catholicism and orthodoxy. Now found myself in a split between nonresistant "nondenominational" (despite that option not truly existing) and orthodoxy.
Your thoughts about the Church being an object of faith were really interesting! The thought of the Church being the body of Christ came to mind the moment you mentioned that.
I've enjoyed watching your videos over time. For me, this is one of the best ever! I would not be able to articulate the way I wrestle with these thoughts to anyone in the little faithful church I've attended for years. I NEVER want to turn away from Christ. But lots of churchy things are difficult to fit together in a way that brings me clarity. I do love exploring church history. You have described it so perfectly!! And it's great to know that others are resonating with your experience also. Thanks! ♥️
Omg I so get it. I’m currently Protestant but I can’t do the non-denominational thing any more after studying church history. So I’m torn-I’ve visited an orthodox vespers and have an Orthodox Bible, BUT I’m still drawn to Catholicism after meeting AMAZING godly Catholics, but I know Orthodoxy and Catholicism will freak my family out-so I’ve been also hanging onto maybe sticking with high church Protestantism like Anglican or Presbyterian…I don’t know…like I can’t choose because I agree with aspects of all 3… I’m just not ready to “choose”.
Through God's providence and infinite wisdom he has put me in a reformed evangelical church in the heart of the most atheistic city in the country. I may have moments where I consider going high church but I believe God put me in this very devout and theologically robust church for a reason, and hope I can serve it as best I can. (also please do more philosophy you're pretty great at it)
Thanks for the encouragement! I often feel similarly about the church my wife and I attend. The DC-Baltimore area is not exactly the Bible belt, and yet our church is faithfully teaching the Scriptures and baptizing many people. It's hard not to see God at work, even if I'd love to have more liturgy or a more historic view of the sacraments.
When I became Catholic in 2017 after being charismatic Evangelical, it wasn’t really because the Church Fathers clearly demonstrate 100% overlap with Catholic belief, it was because they clearly believe in a visible Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, with authoritative knowledge of what was correct vs false teaching. The Church is an organism, so it has developed since the Church Fathers wrote, that’s why I didn’t need to see 100% clear overlap on every teaching because it’d be assuming the Church fully grew up, figured itself out and stopped developing by ~400AD. (That being said, I did see an awful lot of overlap). I know this is perhaps a philosophical viewpoint and a leap in its own way, but it seems to fit very well with biblical ideas, e.g. Jesus being the Good Shepherd leading his flock, the Spirit leading into truth, etc. It always signifies some kind of development or progression, but we need the “pillar of truth” to maintain balance and stability in every generation.
I spent years digging deep into ecclesial history, trying to make it all make sense and find the silver bullet before coming to a similar situation and knowing I had to make a leap of faith in one direction or the other. I felt the Protestantism I grew up in (Lutheranism) was too incoherent to be plausible. Ironically, many of the “bad arguments” I had previously dismissed as indeterminate became very powerful at the leap of faith stage. I.e., The Catholic Church is by far the largest church and its spread throughout the earth; it really seems like Jesus established a continuing, united church headed by Peter; etc. I thought to myself “would God really hold it against me for joining the Church that seems like it checks the easy boxes because I missed a papal statement that might have been heretical in 545?” Lucky for me to find that’s what the Magisterium taught in V2: God wants you in His church but if you’re not in it through no fault of your own, you are not cast off. I found the accordance there to be fitting
Beautifully articulated. What is so frustrating is that most of these traditions are so certain of themselves. Their defenders are more concerned with erecting walls and defending the borders, rather than focusing on encountering the living mystery at the center. To do so would lead to more humility, both in action but also in making such triumphalistic and exclusive claims about history and doctrine. If they’d just acknowledge this leap you are discussing, and not pretend it’s such an obvious, logical, open-and-shut case to land in their particular tradition, then I’d be more comfortable actually landing in one of them! FWIW, I think David Bentley Hart has a very generous take on Orthodoxy that runs contrary to the fundamentalist “one true Church” mindset that is causing the wave of coverts in recent years. It’s starting to grow on me. I’d love love love to see you have a discussion with him … I think he may also be from Baltimore? (So am I!)
DBH goes right out the other side with his universalism. Judas is going to have eternal life, according to DBH, and Stalin, and Albert Fish. Furthermore, he's an incredibly ungracious man and scathing of anyone except a few Thomists that he tolerates and other liberal EO's. He despises Protestantism with a passion. Look at his writing online, this scholar of beauty writes UGLY things.
Whenever I come across posts like this, I think about the prophecy in Amos 8: 11-14. I doubt God is a god of confusion, but in this verse I find both comfort and concern. It shows me that it may be a time that the truth just simply cannot be found, but it isn't from the lack of trying, and I feel like a loving just God would understand that.
The turning point for leaving Protestantism was the study of the Church fathers and early Christianity. After seeing it I couldn't unsee it anymore. I didn't take the steps to become Catholic right away, though. Only after my daughter was born, I started feeling very guilty for not believing in Protestantism anymore and for not taking the steps to become a Catholic. I finally became Catholic this year and my toddler will be baptized in January.
Wonderful dissected and reasoned yet again. Thank you. I've been there and finally decided to take a step of faith. ...just imagine, if there was a Church that was open to the mystery of faith and not so dogmatically defined... 🤭😉. God bless.
One thing I’ve learnt is that intellectual pursuits can only take you so far in this. Call up your local Orthodox Priest and beg him to arrange a 4 night stay for you at Mt Athos. You can content your journey there.
Great video. In my journey I experienced a similar struggle and came to a similar conclusion. I had completely deconstructed and reconstructed. At some point I had to realize that not all the edges were going to be perfect and certain. But i took a leap of faith. The leap I chose was toward the Eucharist and worship. I've never looked back, and never regretted it. The Orthodox Church has all the pieces.
Let me know if I'm getting this wrong, but the most glaring flaw I see in Orthodox theology is the condemnation of the Filioque as a heresy when this was the belief of many Western saints and Fathers, most notably Augustine. It's one thing to say the view is incorrect, another to call it a full blown heresy. How can you reconcile this? To me, it looks like a gaping hole.
@@wynlararinue6866 Aside from the fact the filioque is a very technical debate, the reality is every single ecclesiological position will have difficult dogmas that are either contradictory with later/earlier doctrine, or simply nonsensical. EO might have issues, but there is no position that doesn't.
@@heremtica I don't think there's anything contradictory or nonsensical in Catholicism (though of course I say that as Catholic lol). Yes, there are things in Catholicism that might look like historical contradictions (e.g. apparent reversal on death penalty teaching and salvation outside the Church) but sufficient investigation reveals the contradictions to be only apparent. Call me biased, but I think Catholicism offers an entirely consistent and reasonable worldview.
@@wynlararinue6866 I think Orthodoxy is perfectly consistent. The point of the video is that there are so many things like the filioque that a person can go round and round in circles. Finding new data and never coming to an end. At some point you just got to leap. I'm not going to have a discussion about the filioque in a TH-cam thread.
Once you get over this process, your faith will be even stronger. I was a Protestant and am now a Catholic. I would say that I know more reasons to be Catholic than many cradle Catholics do.
So many of your videos feel like your speaking to my angst. I appreciate all you do for making us feel better that we don’t know the answers. Have you ever considered having Dr. Staples? I recently bought his book, but it would be great to obtain his perspective on the “true church”from a scholar with his knowledge. Keep it up, Austin.
Strange thing... Existentialism helped me to redevelop a stronger sense of faith.. Existentialism, Kabbalah, The Talmud The Philokalia ( A Greek Orthodox book of wisdom from the Saints) 1 thing that help to inform and change me was a book called The Orthodox Way by Kalistos Ware I read this book and it helped to deal with some of these questions... Things like who God is...who you are A Lot of wisdom in this book. The Way Of A Pilgrim...another Orthodox classic.
I am so glad to not be alone in this! I have been exhausted from wanting to know which is the true church. I’m learning towards orthodoxy, after attending Mass for many months and have cried because of how attached I became to adoration. I can never fit in with the Protestants again, although I love them. And I’m not convinced of the pope in Catholicism….praying God helps us through these great challenges. I love everyone and hate the division in all groups. I believe God wants our hearts in the end and I’m trying to not be anxiety ridden
It's great that you are doing such a thorough investigation, and it's complicated because it doesn't just affect you now that you are married. Since you enjoy digging into philosophy and theology, it's only natural that you would approach this quest from those angles. But don't discount your gut. When you get older, sickness and suffering will increase and sometimes nothing will affirm your faith in God other than some unshakable feeling you can't describe. You just know it in your gut. So I'd encourage you to find an ecclesiology that works for your head, but also really try to check in with your gut. What is your gut telling you about truth? Okay, good luck on your quest!
Thank you! A relevant concept I explore is that, because Jesus is LITERALLY The Truth, the truth cannot be possessed by us. The Truth is the totality of everything, so cannot be extracted into a separate part. So there can't possibly be a single institution "has" the Truth.@@dinkledork4421
It seems like for Protestants, the ultimate sin is believing something that is not true or cannot be proved. Which is odd, considering Protestants believe in faith alone. I remember the anxiety around this, I grew up Protestant and later became Catholic and now lead RCIA at my church.
Oh my, this is an outstanding video in so many ways! I would love to hear more of your thoughts on Kierkegaard and existentialism. And if you're taking requests, I wonder if you're familiar with the Lutheran theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich?
I seriously can’t tell you how timely and relevant this video was for me. I feel the same way-Christ is my Rock, and the Church… well… ask me in 5 to 10 years (just kidding… I hope). As a kid, I always thought the world was black and white, but only by God’s grace does He reveal which shades of gray are truly white or black. As I search and learn all that I can, seeking the true (or at least, the most genuine) ancient roots to graft my family into, it’s a relief to know I’m not the only one who feels that, on certain topics, an ecclesial 'leap of faith' seems necessary. Thank you for making this video.
Beautiful honesty all around. Just like a pointillist painting, sometimes what seem like shades of gray are actually just very specific instances of black and white, seen from a distance. If faith in the Church is similar in anyway to faith in Christ, flowing forth from Faith in Him as it were, then we should expect reasonability, but not full certainty, otherwise it would no longer require faith. Therefore, place your uncertainties regarding the Church on Christ. If in seeking the truth with honesty, we should be thwarted in our intellects, our trust in Christ will supply for our deficiencies.
I had a few months of this when i knew i had to go to church but wasnt sure where. For me i tried to see myself returning to a Baptist church where a grest friend attends and it was the faith i grew up in. The disintigration of Protestantism into more and more splits and the discovery of all the church history between the apostles and Martin Luther, that i had never known as a protestant, made this choice a non starter. That and worship bands. Yikes! Next i looked at Catholic and Orthodox. The idea that the church evolves and has a Pope that can change things didn't seem right. The problems with indulgences as an example that lead to the tragedy of the reformation. Tragedy because bad things were added and then some of those and some good rhings were rejected by the reformation. Good things like liturgical worship, Saints, liturgical calendar. Priesthood to deliver the real (mystically) body and blood in the chalice. This left me with those wierdo Orthodox. So i went to my closest Orthodox church with my wife who was not looking to change her faith but wanted to see what sort of maddness i was up to. The Orthodox church was wierd compared to my time as a baptist. There were icons everywhere snd people kissed them respectfully. The worship was structured and certianly not about me but about the alter/cross in the front of the church. The focus was on God. Everyone was standing....all 2 hours except when the priest gave his homily. Then people relaxed and sat. But when the service started again it was time to stand. My wife called it the "Lord of the Rings church" which fit perfectly. What made up my mind was my heart. I felt it was a holy place. So i kept going and haven't stoppped. All my logic and reason seems silly next to the change that it has made in my heart. God Bless.
I just discovered your channel and I really appreciate everything you said. I’ve been on a similar journey recently and have found Christian Existentialism to be very comforting. I’ve started getting into Kierkegaard and now wanna look into Camus. Btw keep doing what you’re doing. I see a few different comments trying to convince you that the Orthodox Church will solve all your problems. It might, and if it does that would seriously be great, but in the meantime, thank you for shining a light on this issue that some of us really resonate with.
The Orthodox Church has a lot to offer a seeker who is willing to rest. To trust the Church and engage in the practice of the faith. But for those who are determined to keep looking and grasping for certainty and will never be settled until they find it, they’re not going to find it here either.
You are right that you can spend your entire life chasing definitive answers without ever finding that ONE perfect answer to satisfy your judgement. That’s the point though. People get hooked on the process of finding answers and discussing the next new thing or the ancient thinkers with no intention of finding a final conclusion. There’s also fear of making the decision and being wrong, like not getting married because 50% end in divorce. It does come down to FAITH. This is two way Faith. God is Faithful. He is not out to trick us.
nothing is confusing if you are not forcing yourself to believe in what you're not justified to believe. you can just simply say: "I am not convinced. I don't have sufficient evidence to believe. I don't know"
Tough. I drifted to agnosticism. But I am beginning to think it’s not forever. I can never go back to Protestantism…I feel like the fruit of individualism that it has born bears witness to a fundamental flaw, so I could never sincerely embrace it without a nagging feeling (to put it lightly) that I have done so out of convenience. Not to mention knowing that I would feel like I was living a budget Christianity. On the other hand I struggle with some of the demands of the old denominations, especially Catholicism, to which I converted when I was 18, and the loneliness that I felt there towards the end. Not that agnosticism fixed that. IDK.
I liked to joke we were Protestant Protestants. The kind searching for the “Acts 2 church.” My mother was raised Lutheran, my father Baptist. From there to a “Bible Church,” and, by the time I remembered anything, home churches, some brushes with messianic Judaism (I still make latkes for Christmas) then non-denominational “community” churches, and spending half of my teenage years with Protestants of all stripes. I then spent around 4 collective years during my Catholicism debating with Protestants.
@nabrzhunter Praying for you on your journey. I'm pretty dissatisfied with Protestantism as well and am discerning Catholicsm, something I never imagined I would say. I struggle with certain teachings, but have fallen in love with their Saints and profound wisdom. But the lack of Catholic community in many parishes is concerning. It is a Scandal that the Body of Christ is so broken. We all have different strengths and need each other to flourish. StIll I have seen God use Protestant Christians to advance His Kingdom in incredible, miraculous ways. So idk
Completely understandable. I never went full on agnostic but I flirted with it. I think Orthodoxy is the most pure expression of early Christianity but I can understand how people would come to different conclusions.
I often pray to God to help me with my many questions. I realize God probably answers with processes of transformation/learning as opposed to one-time instances of help/revelation. I think concretely what helps the Protestant - Ortothodox (and in part Catholic) dialogue is discussion of early church formation of dogma, with emphasis on: - Nicaea 2(+Hiereia before and the synods after that cancelled and re-confirmed iconodulia) - St Gregory Palamas' mariology, of which I confess I have to learn more about, but I know it defines a lot of the Holy Virgin's role in soteriology, also leading to hesychasm.
Thanks for the video btw, it's quite amazing how many people are going through the same process. This "exile" between denominations can make one feel quite alone, yet now I'm seeing many fellow Christians and parents go through the same thing. May God see our questions and (dare I say) struggle. I believe there is a lot of sincere longing for truth and clarity on these matters, and I pray God helps us all in this journey, as we knock over and over again asking for His guidance.
This is very wise. Everyone who spends a lot of time TRULY seeking which "one true church" is the one true church ends up becoming an existentialist - and therefore Protestant!
The argument against the one true Church is literally the same as Richard Dawkins one less God. You can't believe in a religion because all the other religions also claim to be real. Just because two churches claim to be the One True Church, doesn't mean the One True Church doesn't exist.
Why was it so easy for Ignatius and Co.? He knew exactly what the "true Church" was. And his understanding is still held by Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, and even some Anglicans. That's like 1.5+ Billion people right?
@@haronsmith8974Protestants believe that those who truly place their faith in Christ are saved. The nicene creed is the sum of the faith. Therefore the One True Church is thr body of true believers. Not just catholics. Not just orthodox. Not just protestants.
I am on a similar journey. My biggest hangup is definitely the Eucharist so obviously I would need to convert because only EO and Catholics have valid Eucharist. I also believe the Keys actually carry valid authority so I am only left with Catholicism. There are things I don't understand and things that I don't believe, but I know those areas are my leap of faith. I will submit to the valid authority of the church that Jesus established.
@@GospelSimplicity Definitely worth watching. Would love to hear your comments on the "Hidden History of Early Christian Art" documentary on the Harmony TH-cam channel.
I don’t know if you’re a fan of the Indiana Jones movies, but you remind me of Indy in The Last Crusade, confronted with a seemingly insurmountable gap he must cross if he is to save his father’s life, only to find the path was there all along. His perspective just didn’t allow him to see it. Your spiritual journey is your own, Austin. It will be as long or short as you need it to be. Fortunately for us all, God is patient and forgiving.
I relate a lot to this video. It is so counter-intuitive for many of us to think this way because the outcomes feel very black or white (heaven or hell), and so we feel our decision should also be a black-or-white rigid calculation. But working through OCD has taught me that what God expects us to trust in is Himself, not our own logic, yet at the same time we are still expected to use logic and reason in some way. More than anything I want an easy answer, no anxiety, and no struggle. I want to follow God, and I want certainty on how to do that. Instead what God offers me is a promise, "Seek and you will find," and an instruction, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart." One other thing I'll add. It feels very odd that most people who make a leap of faith in this area are pretty evenly split between roman catholicism and eastern orthodoxy, churches that consider each other anathema (generally speaking). That concerns me and I can't really describe why. BTW, I love philosophy.
Because a heavy study of church history basically shows these two positions to be the most coherent. If there is such a thing as “the one true church” it’s most likely Rome or Orthodoxy. The historical and theological data points to this conclusion.
@@countryboyred I was referring to the fact that there's a pretty even split between converts, which indicates that if there is a one true church, half the people who are right about there being a one true church are going to hell
@@kylie5741 not necessarily going to hell, but in serious error. Also numbers don’t really prove anything. If 99 percent of the earth was Muslim, would that make Islam true?
@@countryboyred "Not necessarily," but most likely, if there's no salvation outside the church. I don't think that's an equivalent example because it's not like people who look into religion are split 50/50 between Christianity and Islam. Islam mostly spreads through birth rates.
@@countryboyred Probably or most likely going to hell. I totally agree that numbers don't prove who's right, but that's not an equivalent situation because people aren't split 50/50 between Islam and Christianity; Islam primarily spreads through birth rates. That still doesn't disprove the "one true church" theory though I will admit. I just think it's odd when people act as if they have a lot more epistemic certainty after joining one of those churches, because it doesn't seem like that is the case to me. Anyway I hope I'm not coming across like this disproves anything, it just helps me to write down my thoughts in random comment sections
Austin, I’m sure I’m not breaking any new ground here but maybe at this point it’s best just to simplify. On an intellectual level, you know all there is to know about the various Christian branches. Maybe just pray daily to the Holy Spirit to give you guidance and to point you in the direction you should go and just sit back then and wait for the guidance to come.
A large component of faith is the gentle knowledge in ones heart that it'll be OK because you're with Jesus. If ecclesial angst is damaging to this, then it is actually damaging to one's core faith. Now, the desire to be obedient and go to the best church, that's different. But that shouldn't leave you wrecked.
Certainty is an oxymoron to the definition of faith. Read: Ascent of Mount Carmel by St John of the Cross. He goes in depth in this very subject of certainty vs faith. Excellent book that is exactly what you are looking for.
Coming out of Protestantism, I just can’t believe there’s not a single true Church. Whether there was never a single institution to begin with, or whether it split and branched off, I just can’t accept that that’s what Christ founded with His apostles. It’s far easier to swallow Marian doctrines or historical claims that I don’t find explicit in the “evidence” than it is for me to believe that God didn’t establish and preserve the single, visible body of Christ. So, I agree with your reflection. For some it’s an object of faith, for some it’s not. The Orthodox Church definitely isn’t perfect, but I could never go back to Protestantism. I just don’t see how Protestant ecclesiology could possibly be true. That’s just me. God be with you all
@@shobudski6776 Interesting. I assume you certainly wouldn't be implying that Christ's promise in Mathew 16 failed? Genuinely curious as a non Catholic Christian
I thought of going from Protestantism to Orthodoxy as getting the 'big picture' at last and in that sense my decision to convert was simple. Granted, before this I engaged in much puzzling, too.
i have thought ab these questions in these terms of late: the freedom to doubt is a precondition for the freedom for faith. it appears all these evidences are always frustratingly sufficient (for either side) but never conclusive, and perhaps there is some purpose in this (depending on ur theology, ontology, epistemology, teleology, etc. . . my head is spinning 😅). the sense i get is that it’s almost all set up in honor of and in anticipation for your choice. this sacred choice that was gifted to men. but ofc, i say this now. . . give me another two weeks and i’ll believe the opposite is the case. . . anyways, kudos!
What do you think of Brian Zahnd's approach of Ecclectic Christianity? He says he's protestant, but only by default, not because he's protesting. He incorporates theology from Orthodoxy in his sermons (and doesn't hold to penal substitution), shows icons on stage, etc. but the worship music in his church is basically rock music like a lot of the modern churches. In one of his latest sermons he called himself "rock 'n roll Anglican". I'd be cool if you could interview him on eccesial angst. Even though he has great admiration for Orthodox theology, he isn't anxious about becoming Orthodox and leaving behind his protestant flock.
Augustine testifies to how **reason puts man on the road toward God and how it is faith that informs and elevates reason** , taking it beyond its natural limitations while never being tyrannical or confining in any way. He summarized this seemingly paradoxical fact in the famous dictum, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe” (Sermo 43:9).
What convince me to take the leap was that I became convinced that for reality to make any sense or have meaning it must be ordered in a hierarchical way, with different levels of organization and authority going down. Living in a world that is actively destroying this sacred order made it obvious after my life was falling apart. To me the Catholic church was that sacred order founded by the Lord and King Jesus Christ under the commandment of love that I could hold on to and trust in even if it is under attack as well by forces of chaos
Struggling….. life long Protestant who has been studying Catholicism and looking at EO. I just want to make the right decision but on info overload. Stressed out. All sides make good arguments. I have leaned towards Catholicism. Disappointed with many Protestant arguments against Catholicism which upon investigation don’t all seem to be accurate or maybe I am just leaning Catholic.
Thank you for this video. It really spoke to me! If the universal church is not one Religiously (many expressions of faith & practice) how do you believe we are one? In light of John 17
I appreciate your authenticity in these videos Austin. My question is, if our relationship with Christ is a matter of faith, wouldn’t the Church which is His body also be of a similar nature?
Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth (Christ). As an Orthodox Christian, I know that the Church is our Holy Mother, the Bride and Body of Christ. It is in the Church that Christ is with us till the close of the age, as He promised in the Gospels, through His Holy Mysteries. God bless you.
Genuine question: I remember you saying you’ve come to believe the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ. Do you believe this is only true within a valid priesthood? Or is it a subjective truth? Or what? Do you believe nondenom churches have the Eucharist?
Interesting video. I found myself in a similar position but one thing I didn’t see you mention was the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide the church in all truth. This guidance is active and for all time not just a point in time. For me, I had to believe there was truth somewhere that can be found or else the promise given by Christ regarding the Holy Spirit was false. That truth also had to be consistent over time and traceable throughout the ages. There’s a good St Vincent of Lerens quote that you’ve probably seen that discusses some of these topics you’re mentioning.
If I can give advice to anyone, as someone who has gone from Evangelical to Roman Catholic to Orthodox, is that, although the journey to make a decision may be tiring and nauseous, just remember that you're looking for the experience of the fullness of the Christian Faith, and not that the other options are totally wrong and damned. That's ultimately your Protestant influenced mindset. You need to be aware and break free from that.
Love this video. As someone that went from Atheism, to Camus style absurdist subscriber, to Russian Orthodox convert, then ultimately realizing that Rome, Constantinople, Moscow, Canterbury, Utrecht, etc. all have valid orders, and there is no rational reason for me to reject any bishop with apostolic succession as invalid, I ultimately solved the existential crisis and left orthodoxy for Anglican Catholicism. The Via Media between them all. Most Holy Theotokos save us!
There is certainly truth, but i haven’t found at this point any compelling reason one or the other is the original. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Especially when reconciling the Eastern and Western church father’s writings.
Nothing has challenged my faith more than the fight between orthodox, catholic and protestant, im exhausted...
Omg same… like I’m in this back and forth journey between all three. I can’t decide
@@lifewasgiventous1614 I’m in no way saying that this would help you, but while you’re struggling with this, visit a Confessional Lutheran church since my experience is that it’s the perfect balance between Scripture and tradition, preaching and liturgy. Watch videos from Jordan B Cooper, Bryan Wolfmueller and Will Weeden if you want to get familiar with the theology. We Christians are not called to have this anxiety-we should have gospel assurance!
God bless you on your journey
@@lifewasgiventous1614 Maybe the struggle will help grow your faith in the long run. It's a way more interesting and less horrific test of faith than Job's 😂
Do not worry. Once you decide, your faith will be stronger. I recommend that you study the Church Fathers before making your decision.
I was a Protestant and am now a Catholic. I would say that I know more reasons to be Catholic than a cradle Catholic does. 😅
Stop looking at apologetics, and read your Bible through once or twice and cultivate your prayer life and good works. It'll take you a year or two. Don't worry, people won't stop arguing on the internet in the meantime.
Protestant former Catholic here, for the record.
Austin, I'm in this position you're talking about...between cities , no gas...cant go back to protestantism because well, once that bell's been rung it cant be un-rung.....just you wait until that first baby of yours is born ..... the angst and frustration exponentially increases. To be responsible for your own soul is one thing, but to decide if and when and by whom your child is baptized, chrismated and communed.... having my first child is what initiated me going down the " who has authority" rabbit hole.... God have mercy . I love your content, thank you!
Trust Jesus in His One True Church that is the pillar & foundation of Truth, nothing else compares
Which church is that?@@geoffjs
@@HopeUnknownisn’t it obvious? Lol
Yeah when I had my first I had a crisis and needed something more substantial to raise my kids
This. For a long time, I thought it was okay to simply hold an opinion on these matters and simply know it for myself, but once you have a child.. you realize the depth of your responsibility to bring others along with you into the truth so that they don’t have to walk through the desert themselves.
I became a Christian at 17 in a non denom / evangelical church and absorbed everything. There were great things and not so great things, but I couldn't recognise those because of an elevated view of my church. When I realised they weren't right about everything, I had a faith crisis about what was actually true and then rebuilt my faith by listening to Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic and reading lots of C.S Lewis... For now I've stayed at my non denom church though I find people can be dismissive of other denominations (though many churches are), whilst I'm exploring. From my faith crisis, I learnt I'm not going have 100% certainty about everything, that God has not abandoned me because of my not knowing but that He loves me, so I keep seeking and learning, trusting He will lead.
This feels like a warm embrace from a mentor saying, “I understand your confusions and doubts, and I want you to lean into that doubt and ask Jesus once again to show himself.” Thank you!
Thank you for your candidness, Austin. It's clear your quest for ecclesial certainty hasn't been easy, but I pray you reach your destination. God bless you, brother!
Kierkegaard is actually what kept me in the Christian faith. I read Fear and Trembling in college (actually in a class with Suan Sonna, whom I am sure you know). I was really struggling with my Calvinist/Southern Baptist faith at the time and his "leap of faith" really kept me from falling into complete shambles. A couple years later, after a long journey much like your own, I took a new (and more sturdy) "leap" and joined the Catholic Church and haven't looked back! My Faith has increased by x100 in ways I could never have imagined. I am so thankful!
Kierkegaard is hilarious, he would have been a comedian in the modern times. Our last great philosopher truth tellers, the comedian laughs at all,his dispair.
you might enjoy Cornelio Fabro's work on Kierkegaard. He was a Thomist Italian priest of the last century who loved Kierkegaard and thought many people got him wrong.
Sounds like a fascinating journey! Glad Kierkegaard was helpful along the way.
I’m so grateful for the confessional lutheran church I’ve been going to these last months. Glory to our triune God
I've also been going to a confessional lutheran church recently.
@ lets go!!
On my way to Confessional Lutheranism as well, after being raised Roman Catholic.
@@HDwedge012 God bless you my brother
I think that’s the whole point of reality. The searching, the longing, the moments of epiphany…it’s like your soul is guiding you, nudging you along gently, giving you winks that you’re on the right path. The fact that an aha! moment leads to yet another search is the riddle. The point of it all is enjoying the journey, not the destination. Once you enjoy life, you have it all. Like, once you realize you’re playing hide and seek with yourself, you can then realize you are allowed to have fun with it, and not stress that you can’t find the answer. The answer is within, not without.
Austin, my wife and I sat down to listen to this one together after church today. We had a great conversation and it was a great blessing to us in our own journey. Wish I could deliver this thank you in person. May God bless you.
Brother Austin, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your faith journey with us! I love your knowledge and humility. Keep up the great work, my friend!
Hey Austin! I appreciate the video. I think I found it at just the right time because I’m in the same boat as others here in the comment section. I grew up in a Oneness Pentecostal church and left it at 25 years old. 10 years later and here I am praising God that I’ve felt His calling in my life again and I’m ready to answer! So I started reading my bible again and I’ve been watching apologetics and learning about church history the past couple of weeks and although I feel it has solidified my faith in God more than ever, it has also taken me down the rabbit hole of which is the “true church”. And like most can attest IT IS TIRING! I feel like I’m going to “roam the meadows” as you put it and just let the Holy Spirit guide me and let me know if I am where I belong. God bless you, Austin and again thank you for sharing! 🙏🏽
Man, you just nearly perfectly described the place I'm in right now. You were able to articulate my own thoughts and feelings better than I could myself. Sincerely, thank you
I can empathize with you Austin. I went through something similar although not exactly the same thing. I was raised a Catholic and attended Catholic school up until the 8th grade. It was all I knew. Then at the age of 18 I met some evangelical Christians (I wasn't familiar with that term and they didn't ever refer to themselves as such) who taught me the Bible and shared the gospel with me, something that was very new to me. I had been told the Catholic Church was the true church founded by Jesus Himself but also believed what I was reading in the Bible.
After several months of wrestling with this I finally realized that I had never actually trusted Jesus as Savior and Lord (really didn't know what this meant) and made the decision to do this publicly then was baptized about a year later. I never considered myself as "converting" to Protestantism or becoming a Baptist (that was the denomination I attended at the time). I felt I was simply trusting in Jesus and being born again for the first time.
That was over forty years go. Over the years I struggled with my faith in different ways but always came back to the Lord. Today, I am pastoring a small Pentecostal church and love serving the Lord. I have since come to have a great respect for the Catholic Church in many ways but still hold to my faith in Jesus.
This video was a breath of fresh air, and describes my experience exactly.
I’ve “deconstructed” my Protestantism, but now I’m unable to totally convince myself of Orthodoxy or Catholicism (due to what at least appear to me to be accretions, like icon veneration).
It’s like I’ve got nowhere else to go. No matter which option I take (Prot, EO, RC), there’s going to be some nagging question I have about an important matter for which there doesn’t appear to be an answer. No matter what I’m going to have to consent to things that I just don’t believe are true.
I like to think it’s not just a matter of “where do I tolerate this doubt? What’s the safest option?” I really hope and pray I can come to some semblance of certainty.
Please pray for me.
I can relate. Prayed for you!
Check out a confessional Lutheran Church (LCMS)
God bless you in your journey Austin. As someone who is on a journey to find where I feel God is leading me and where I best fit in the ecclesial landscape, I can relate to several aspects that were covered in this video. My advice from what I’ve experienced is draw near to God, this is a journey to spend in devotion and communion with him. The more I’ve found I’ve leaned in there, the more this journey, with its complexities of history and its nuances, start to feel like less of a big challenge and more like an exciting adventure, one that just might take a lifetime, but one that’s worth it for growing closer to God all the same.
In searching for Theological certainty, I found the application of Mystery in much of Orthodox Theology to be exactly what I was looking for.
This is what draws me there too.
The problem is the only way to be orthodox is to agree to what they refute now to which they already agreed with. They break apart as well. Not as much as Protestants but it seems to accelerate they are not unified in theology as a whole.
To be truly Orthodox one should be Eastern Catholic. There is unity AND the mystery to which they hold.
@@catholicguy1073 I'm curious as to what you are referring to. The same can be said about the Roman Catholic Church. As someone who is in this "no mans land" of trying to discern everything, it becomes exhausting.
@@aidanhansemann1212 if you are drawn to Orthodoxy, true Orthodoxy is to be Eastern Catholic such as Byzantine, Maronite etc.
Orthodoxy affirmed the Indefectability of the Pope for example at the 6th Ecumenical Council. Orthodoxy also rejects other teachings today that they once held.
@@catholicguy1073 Orthodoxy has much more theologically unity between its churches. Way more than the RCC. Like it’s not even debatable really.
Thank you. This view helps me if only in that it reminds me I'm not alone in feeling this way. Also the reminder I don't need absolute certainty is much needed 😅
@GospelSimplicity
I admire your honesty and perseverance so much Austin. We are all cheering for you, and I know God certainly is as well!
I don’t know if these following reflections will be particularly helpful but I did want to share something out of my own experience.
When I was converting two years ago, besides studying the historical niceties, I was also looking for simpler narratives that a common person could use to find the Church Jesus established. I call this “Fisherman epistemology” because I sometimes think a more bone-headed approach to ecclesiology can be more beneficial than trying to always be figuring out stuff like, say, the Symachian forgeries or the Pope
Vigilius I incident or whatever (and believe me, I did that). A lot of these ideas came from appropriating some of C. S Lewis’s thinking and transposing it into a different context.
@GospelSimplicity
The first idea I had was what I liked to call “Mere Apostolicity,” a notion where one considers it at least more
probable than not that the doctrinal development broadly seen in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox is likely valid, especially given their broad agreement. I don’t think it’s very controversial to secular historians that every existing church body before the Reformation broadly held to doctrines that conflict with much of historic and contemporary Protestant belief. I don’t mean this to say that means Protestantism is automatically wrong; I mean that as just a sort of statement of fact from which we can draw some probable conclusions. The first is that even if pre-Reformation history can appear self-contradictory and problematic at times, it is likely more intellectually prudent and conservative to try to resolve those difficulties rather than establish an alternate doctrinal system that can’t establish itself from a large-picture point of view of history and that can only really attempt to validate itself by trying to point out falsification events or historical doctrinal difficulties in those Apostolic churches. And if Protestantism tries to establish its contours through Scripture, it then has to accept the very heavy intellectual tension of believing that the people who compiled the scriptures and spoke the original languages of scripture interpreted the scriptures incorrectly in the same way across geographic boundaries without any real modes of rapid communication. I think it’s more likely to assume they interpreted scripture in broadly the same way because that’s what the scriptural texts actually meant.
@GospelSimplicity
The second idea I had was to apply C. S Lewis’s Trilemma as a criterion for finding the Church Jesus established (unfortunately as I learned later, Peter Kreeft had already done this. Darn.) For example, if the Church is the body of Christ, it necessarily shares His personal characteristics while accomplishing and sustaining His mission. Which Church evangelized the world and changed the global religious landscape the most over the longest stretch of time? Which Church speaks with authority and stands serene in what it believes, not having to constantly live in a state of strained self-justification, contradistinction, or contra-definition to other groups?
But moreover, what Church is most like a liar or a lunatic? Which Church has the largest, most infuriating, and potentially most arrogant out of all existing Christian bodies’ claims, and which Church has all other Christian bodies in opposition to its core doctrines, as well as the whole world attacking it? Which Church calls for a wager that even Pascal would quake in his boots at?
Well that’s clear-the Catholic Church. Either it is the one true Church, or, as John Henry Cardinal Newman intimated, it is the most diabolical construction mankind ever conceived. Therefore, it’s the Church that seemed the most like Jesus.
Anyway, once I fit the big rocks
inside the jar, I could trust that the little rocks would somehow fit around it, even if I didn’t understand. Just because I didn’t understand how some of little rocks would fit didn’t mean the big rocks didn’t fit. And it’s expected anyway-I’m a finite human being, and it’s not like all the papyrus recording church history survived from history, so it’s not like it’ll make complete sense anyway. But then the real clencher was when I thought of the fact that this whole fiasco could’ve been avoided if the Holy Spirit didn’t have Matthew write chapter 16, verse 18, of that bothersome gospel of his, or that Jesus was either very dumb or just plain spiteful to name Peter, “Rock” when it would be so easy to misinterpret Peter as the foundation of the Church, then that was it for me. As Agatha Christie’s Hercule Poirot would say, “the psychology didn’t work.” It’s like a Baptist writing 1 Peter 3:21; why would they make a verse that difficult for themselves?
And that, broadly speaking, is why I’m Catholic.
I like the idea of fisherman epistemology, though I'm not sure how clear it is that the Catholic Church makes the boldest claims (the Lewis Trilemma). Orthodox claims seem more exclusive, and thus more bold, than post-Vatican 2 Catholic Claims. I also don't know how you can have all other bodies in opposition to its core doctrines while still claiming a mere apostolicity.
@GospelSimplicity thanks for taking the time to reply to my comment Austin! Means a lot!
Are you referring to EO as being more soteriologically exclusive in their interpretation of there not being salvation outside of the Church? I’d agree with that if that’s what you’re saying. I am more so thinking that in terms of authority claims, Rome makes the most outrageous and far-reaching ones out of all the Apostolic churches, and that it fits the Lewis Trilemma in that way I suppose. Like Rome is the boldest in how it conceives of itself.
But I certainly see what you are saying about the other Sees not approving of certain Papal doctrines (especially I’d say Papal Supremacy) as being a point against its apostolicity. But conversely, to focus on Papal Supremacy, I do think that there is an interesting parallel between how people rebelled against the Lordship and Authority of Christ, and rathered to call Him a liar or a lunatic, and how people reject Rome. In other words, it wouldn’t surprise me if deficient forms of Christianity would do this as well to the true Church.
@@andrewvargas9574 to me a much more honest reading of history is that Rome went power mad and broke away from the rest of the patriarchs. I also agree with Austin in that post Vatican 2 Catholicism, the claims of exclusivity are more watered down. I would say the Orthodox make the boldest claims (unapologetically the one true church, no sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, etc)
It's nice to see that me and my Fiancé are not the only ones in the world going through this. You get caught in this theological no man's land that leaves you feeling disoriented and disconnected from those around you. We have enough convictions in our reformed baptist church where all of our relationships now feel like people are only trying to "save" us and disappointed in our search. Meanwhile, people also seeming concerned for our wedding in January and even alluding to it not being good to do. We feel like we are alone in this entirely. What we thought was a pursuit for truth and Jesus has resulted in broken relationships and misplaced judgment. Our middle ground as of late is attending Catholic Mass on Wednesday and our home church on Sundays. I remind myself that before they hated me, they hated Him.
Come home brother. 🇻🇦
I don't mean to intrude but are you and your Fiancé on the same page about this direction you are heading? If not, how are you handling that? I ask because I've started the same walk as you have. Also in like manner, I have a girlfriend and we have been talking about getting engaged. The thing is, that at the moment, she doesn't have the same convictions that I do. To be fair, I just started down this path around the start of summer. It was just recently that I voiced my thoughts about what I've been learning to her and a few others. I'm concerned because this isn't something that works itself out quickly.
@@aidanhansemann1212 My Fiance and I are on the same page yes. We have slightly different focuses in our convictions i.e. she is heavily focused on the meaning of the Eucharist/Communion whereas I am focused on the issue of church unity and Sola Scriptura.
I am sorry you are in a tough place with your convictions and subsequently where that leads your relationship. I am only 22, so I am in no position to give sound wisdom on a situation like this. However, I can tell you how it has played out in our relationship. We trust one another enough, so if I bring concerns to her or she brings them to me we will both take the time to listen to the other one and hear each other out. So that is how this started for us, I started questioning things and she started listening and hearing my valid convictions. She went ahead and started reading church fathers, listening to other viewpoints etc. because she wanted to give my convictions a fair evaluation. She found herself in the same place as me in the end. We talk about it consistently and tell eachother what new things we learned each day. This happened post engagement though. I personally, and I emphasize that this is me, I personally value my Fiance's willingness to go through the tough times with me head on and wrestle with tough questions and probably wouldn't want to be with her if this was absent from our relationship. I question things all the time and know this about myself and I need someone who is willing to do that too. I had no fear coming to her and telling her these things because I knew she would walk with me through it. Even if she wasn't personally convicted about it and I was, she would follow my lead because she trusts my judgement. And this goes for me too, if she is convicted, I am going to give her thoughts my attention and try to see where she's coming from and if it makes sense. I knew this before we got engaged though because we have dealt with a lot of external issues since we started dating.
I am sorry this is happening for you too. It is a scary and difficult place to find yourself. I wish I could just go back to feeling secure and comfortable with what I was doing. However, I don't think that's what we ought to do to be followers of Christ. If me and my fiance were still dating and I had these concerns, I would point blank ask her how she feels now that I am not really secure in our denomination and don't know where I will land in the future. If she is totally against it and not willing to search with me, or did search and still felt like I was coming to the wrong conclusion, I think the right answer is that I couldn't marry her because our family, in the future, needs to be aligned. However, I also would examine her convictions and see if they are valid. If we simply will not agree or be open to new things, I don't think for me it would've been right to ask her to marry her.
I know that was long, hope it helps. If you need another dude to talk to and would like to talk more let me know on here and I'll leave my instagram, discord or something else under the comment
@@TheRighteousBeggar Thanks for the reply man, I really appreciate it! Don't sell yourself to short, I think that the advice you gave is pretty good. In Job 32, Elihu is a good example that wisdom doesn't necessarily come with age. Anyway, like you said in your original comment, it is nice to know that I'm not the only one going through this. It's kind of interesting, you and I have a similar story right now and we are both the same age. We could definitely talk later, drop your discord and we can chat sometime. God Bless!
@ gonna try to reply to this again since my comments keep getting deleted but nplscage is my discod
Extremely important topic that doesn't get enough serious talk or consideration.
St. Veronica, Pray for Us! 🙏✝️❤️
Something that has helped me was to humble myself and understand that these decisions are as much if not more spiritual than they are intellectual. Going to God with authentic humility asking him to direct my steps alongside spiritual decernment has been instrumental in my journey. To sum it up, trust the Lord, test run the faith of the church your investigating in its most normal form, pray, and see if it yields a Godly fruit. Praying for you.
Very good advice. As a recent convert to the Catholic church I would echo your comments. Also asking Our Lady for her guidance was vital in my own journey.
Man, remember the good ol’ days when we had ecclesial certainty? Childhood was amazing in more ways than one.
Sometimes, I wonder if I would be better off if I just shut down my brain.
As a theologian with conviction about the "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" verse... I often agree with that thought. Theology is important for the minds of humanity. Yet, it has generated justifications for profound divisions in the body of Christ.
Idk I never had theological certainty even as a child. Growing up Methodist I saw all the other denominations that surround us and wondered why we all believed different things.
thank you for this video - it came as a blessing with truly providential timing. i've been struggling a lot with a somewhat similar sense of ecclesial angst and the desire for absolute (or, frankly, even sufficient) certainty about the 'one true church'-ness of an ecclesial institution. the language you shared in this of standing at the dizzying edge of the chasm, teetering on whether to (or: whether it is possible to) make that leap of faith across, is so apt and really gave me language for a piece of my current experience. thank you for sharing this (i love the philosophy as well! always down for that), and i will keep you in my prayers for your own spiritual journey. even without certainty or resolution to the question of ecclesial angst and claims, lean into the absurdity, the chaos, the disorientation. God is bigger than it all. blessings to you, Austin.
I’m happy to have found this channel. It’s been very helpful to hear a man articulate well what I have been struggling with.
Uncanny timing, Austin. This describes my situation to a T, and I think I know what I need to do. Thank you
I got lost in the first half but the second half felt more clear. I like the question of if the church is an object of our faith. I'll need to chew on that for a while. I grew up Protestant but started getting interested in Catholicism and orthodoxy. Now found myself in a split between nonresistant "nondenominational" (despite that option not truly existing) and orthodoxy.
Your thoughts about the Church being an object of faith were really interesting! The thought of the Church being the body of Christ came to mind the moment you mentioned that.
I've enjoyed watching your videos over time. For me, this is one of the best ever! I would not be able to articulate the way I wrestle with these thoughts to anyone in the little faithful church I've attended for years. I NEVER want to turn away from Christ. But lots of churchy things are difficult to fit together in a way that brings me clarity. I do love exploring church history. You have described it so perfectly!! And it's great to know that others are resonating with your experience also. Thanks! ♥️
Omg I so get it. I’m currently Protestant but I can’t do the non-denominational thing any more after studying church history. So I’m torn-I’ve visited an orthodox vespers and have an Orthodox Bible, BUT I’m still drawn to Catholicism after meeting AMAZING godly Catholics, but I know Orthodoxy and Catholicism will freak my family out-so I’ve been also hanging onto maybe sticking with high church Protestantism like Anglican or Presbyterian…I don’t know…like I can’t choose because I agree with aspects of all 3… I’m just not ready to “choose”.
I hope this video at least showed you that you're not alone.
What do you make of Rome/EO (historically)condemning you to hell for choosing one of the other 2 options?
Hey check out historic Protestants like Lutheran and Presbyterian and Anglican churches
Through God's providence and infinite wisdom he has put me in a reformed evangelical church in the heart of the most atheistic city in the country. I may have moments where I consider going high church but I believe God put me in this very devout and theologically robust church for a reason, and hope I can serve it as best I can. (also please do more philosophy you're pretty great at it)
Thanks for the encouragement! I often feel similarly about the church my wife and I attend. The DC-Baltimore area is not exactly the Bible belt, and yet our church is faithfully teaching the Scriptures and baptizing many people. It's hard not to see God at work, even if I'd love to have more liturgy or a more historic view of the sacraments.
@@GospelSimplicityIf you converted, wouldn’t you have to say that God is in fact not at work in that church?
When I became Catholic in 2017 after being charismatic Evangelical, it wasn’t really because the Church Fathers clearly demonstrate 100% overlap with Catholic belief, it was because they clearly believe in a visible Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, with authoritative knowledge of what was correct vs false teaching. The Church is an organism, so it has developed since the Church Fathers wrote, that’s why I didn’t need to see 100% clear overlap on every teaching because it’d be assuming the Church fully grew up, figured itself out and stopped developing by ~400AD. (That being said, I did see an awful lot of overlap). I know this is perhaps a philosophical viewpoint and a leap in its own way, but it seems to fit very well with biblical ideas, e.g. Jesus being the Good Shepherd leading his flock, the Spirit leading into truth, etc. It always signifies some kind of development or progression, but we need the “pillar of truth” to maintain balance and stability in every generation.
Have you seen the new documentary on Icons? It’s called “The Hidden History of early Christian art”. It’s on the Harmony TH-cam channel.
So good man, you're really helping me think through this too!
I spent years digging deep into ecclesial history, trying to make it all make sense and find the silver bullet before coming to a similar situation and knowing I had to make a leap of faith in one direction or the other. I felt the Protestantism I grew up in (Lutheranism) was too incoherent to be plausible. Ironically, many of the “bad arguments” I had previously dismissed as indeterminate became very powerful at the leap of faith stage. I.e., The Catholic Church is by far the largest church and its spread throughout the earth; it really seems like Jesus established a continuing, united church headed by Peter; etc. I thought to myself “would God really hold it against me for joining the Church that seems like it checks the easy boxes because I missed a papal statement that might have been heretical in 545?” Lucky for me to find that’s what the Magisterium taught in V2: God wants you in His church but if you’re not in it through no fault of your own, you are not cast off. I found the accordance there to be fitting
Thankyou Austin, wonderful content, much appreciated.
Beautifully articulated. What is so frustrating is that most of these traditions are so certain of themselves. Their defenders are more concerned with erecting walls and defending the borders, rather than focusing on encountering the living mystery at the center. To do so would lead to more humility, both in action but also in making such triumphalistic and exclusive claims about history and doctrine. If they’d just acknowledge this leap you are discussing, and not pretend it’s such an obvious, logical, open-and-shut case to land in their particular tradition, then I’d be more comfortable actually landing in one of them! FWIW, I think David Bentley Hart has a very generous take on Orthodoxy that runs contrary to the fundamentalist “one true Church” mindset that is causing the wave of coverts in recent years. It’s starting to grow on me. I’d love love love to see you have a discussion with him … I think he may also be from Baltimore? (So am I!)
DBH goes right out the other side with his universalism. Judas is going to have eternal life, according to DBH, and Stalin, and Albert Fish.
Furthermore, he's an incredibly ungracious man and scathing of anyone except a few Thomists that he tolerates and other liberal EO's. He despises Protestantism with a passion. Look at his writing online, this scholar of beauty writes UGLY things.
Whenever I come across posts like this, I think about the prophecy in Amos 8: 11-14. I doubt God is a god of confusion, but in this verse I find both comfort and concern. It shows me that it may be a time that the truth just simply cannot be found, but it isn't from the lack of trying, and I feel like a loving just God would understand that.
The turning point for leaving Protestantism was the study of the Church fathers and early Christianity. After seeing it I couldn't unsee it anymore.
I didn't take the steps to become Catholic right away, though. Only after my daughter was born, I started feeling very guilty for not believing in Protestantism anymore and for not taking the steps to become a Catholic. I finally became Catholic this year and my toddler will be baptized in January.
This is much needed, thank you for it!
Wonderful dissected and reasoned yet again. Thank you. I've been there and finally decided to take a step of faith.
...just imagine, if there was a Church that was open to the mystery of faith and not so dogmatically defined... 🤭😉.
God bless.
One thing I’ve learnt is that intellectual pursuits can only take you so far in this. Call up your local Orthodox Priest and beg him to arrange a 4 night stay for you at Mt Athos. You can content your journey there.
Great video. In my journey I experienced a similar struggle and came to a similar conclusion. I had completely deconstructed and reconstructed. At some point I had to realize that not all the edges were going to be perfect and certain. But i took a leap of faith. The leap I chose was toward the Eucharist and worship. I've never looked back, and never regretted it. The Orthodox Church has all the pieces.
Let me know if I'm getting this wrong, but the most glaring flaw I see in Orthodox theology is the condemnation of the Filioque as a heresy when this was the belief of many Western saints and Fathers, most notably Augustine. It's one thing to say the view is incorrect, another to call it a full blown heresy. How can you reconcile this? To me, it looks like a gaping hole.
@wynlararinue6866 that doesn't seem to fit with the discussion of the video
@@wynlararinue6866 Aside from the fact the filioque is a very technical debate, the reality is every single ecclesiological position will have difficult dogmas that are either contradictory with later/earlier doctrine, or simply nonsensical. EO might have issues, but there is no position that doesn't.
@@heremtica I don't think there's anything contradictory or nonsensical in Catholicism (though of course I say that as Catholic lol). Yes, there are things in Catholicism that might look like historical contradictions (e.g. apparent reversal on death penalty teaching and salvation outside the Church) but sufficient investigation reveals the contradictions to be only apparent. Call me biased, but I think Catholicism offers an entirely consistent and reasonable worldview.
@@wynlararinue6866 I think Orthodoxy is perfectly consistent. The point of the video is that there are so many things like the filioque that a person can go round and round in circles. Finding new data and never coming to an end. At some point you just got to leap. I'm not going to have a discussion about the filioque in a TH-cam thread.
That’s where I’ve landed and I’m comfortable yet open to still learning
Once you get over this process, your faith will be even stronger. I was a Protestant and am now a Catholic. I would say that I know more reasons to be Catholic than many cradle Catholics do.
So many of your videos feel like your speaking to my angst. I appreciate all you do for making us feel better that we don’t know the answers. Have you ever considered having Dr. Staples? I recently bought his book, but it would be great to obtain his perspective on the “true church”from a scholar with his knowledge. Keep it up, Austin.
Strange thing...
Existentialism helped me to redevelop a stronger sense of faith..
Existentialism, Kabbalah, The Talmud
The Philokalia ( A Greek Orthodox book of wisdom from the Saints)
1 thing that help to inform and change me was a book called The Orthodox Way by Kalistos Ware
I read this book and it helped to deal with some of these questions...
Things like who God is...who you are
A Lot of wisdom in this book.
The Way Of A Pilgrim...another Orthodox classic.
I am so glad to not be alone in this! I have been exhausted from wanting to know which is the true church. I’m learning towards orthodoxy, after attending Mass for many months and have cried because of how attached I became to adoration. I can never fit in with the Protestants again, although I love them. And I’m not convinced of the pope in Catholicism….praying God helps us through these great challenges. I love everyone and hate the division in all groups. I believe God wants our hearts in the end and I’m trying to not be anxiety ridden
I hope you find peace along the journey
@@GospelSimplicity thank you! And you as well! God bless!
It's great that you are doing such a thorough investigation, and it's complicated because it doesn't just affect you now that you are married. Since you enjoy digging into philosophy and theology, it's only natural that you would approach this quest from those angles. But don't discount your gut. When you get older, sickness and suffering will increase and sometimes nothing will affirm your faith in God other than some unshakable feeling you can't describe. You just know it in your gut. So I'd encourage you to find an ecclesiology that works for your head, but also really try to check in with your gut. What is your gut telling you about truth? Okay, good luck on your quest!
I'm writing a book right now to try and address this. Pray for me please 🙏
Would love to read it.
Thank you! A relevant concept I explore is that, because Jesus is LITERALLY The Truth, the truth cannot be possessed by us. The Truth is the totality of everything, so cannot be extracted into a separate part. So there can't possibly be a single institution "has" the Truth.@@dinkledork4421
I feel the same way. Please keep us updated when it’s finished 🙏
It seems like for Protestants, the ultimate sin is believing something that is not true or cannot be proved. Which is odd, considering Protestants believe in faith alone. I remember the anxiety around this, I grew up Protestant and later became Catholic and now lead RCIA at my church.
Oh my, this is an outstanding video in so many ways! I would love to hear more of your thoughts on Kierkegaard and existentialism. And if you're taking requests, I wonder if you're familiar with the Lutheran theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich?
God bless you and shine His face on you. Do not overthink it. Love Jesus. He will lead you.
I seriously can’t tell you how timely and relevant this video was for me.
I feel the same way-Christ is my Rock, and the Church… well… ask me in 5 to 10 years (just kidding… I hope). As a kid, I always thought the world was black and white, but only by God’s grace does He reveal which shades of gray are truly white or black.
As I search and learn all that I can, seeking the true (or at least, the most genuine) ancient roots to graft my family into, it’s a relief to know I’m not the only one who feels that, on certain topics, an ecclesial 'leap of faith' seems necessary.
Thank you for making this video.
Beautiful honesty all around. Just like a pointillist painting, sometimes what seem like shades of gray are actually just very specific instances of black and white, seen from a distance. If faith in the Church is similar in anyway to faith in Christ, flowing forth from Faith in Him as it were, then we should expect reasonability, but not full certainty, otherwise it would no longer require faith. Therefore, place your uncertainties regarding the Church on Christ. If in seeking the truth with honesty, we should be thwarted in our intellects, our trust in Christ will supply for our deficiencies.
Take the leap. The Truth is found in the Catholic Church and through the most awesome and life creating Mysteries of Christ.
I'm leaping there todayyyyyy!
Yes, in the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church for sure. ☦️
The fullness of the faith is only found in Holy Orthodoxy.
I had a few months of this when i knew i had to go to church but wasnt sure where.
For me i tried to see myself returning to a Baptist church where a grest friend attends and it was the faith i grew up in. The disintigration of Protestantism into more and more splits and the discovery of all the church history between the apostles and Martin Luther, that i had never known as a protestant, made this choice a non starter. That and worship bands. Yikes!
Next i looked at Catholic and Orthodox. The idea that the church evolves and has a Pope that can change things didn't seem right. The problems with indulgences as an example that lead to the tragedy of the reformation. Tragedy because bad things were added and then some of those and some good rhings were rejected by the reformation. Good things like liturgical worship, Saints, liturgical calendar. Priesthood to deliver the real (mystically) body and blood in the chalice.
This left me with those wierdo Orthodox. So i went to my closest Orthodox church with my wife who was not looking to change her faith but wanted to see what sort of maddness i was up to.
The Orthodox church was wierd compared to my time as a baptist. There were icons everywhere snd people kissed them respectfully. The worship was structured and certianly not about me but about the alter/cross in the front of the church. The focus was on God. Everyone was standing....all 2 hours except when the priest gave his homily. Then people relaxed and sat. But when the service started again it was time to stand. My wife called it the "Lord of the Rings church" which fit perfectly.
What made up my mind was my heart. I felt it was a holy place.
So i kept going and haven't stoppped. All my logic and reason seems silly next to the change that it has made in my heart. God Bless.
I just discovered your channel and I really appreciate everything you said. I’ve been on a similar journey recently and have found Christian Existentialism to be very comforting. I’ve started getting into Kierkegaard and now wanna look into Camus.
Btw keep doing what you’re doing. I see a few different comments trying to convince you that the Orthodox Church will solve all your problems. It might, and if it does that would seriously be great, but in the meantime, thank you for shining a light on this issue that some of us really resonate with.
The Orthodox Church has a lot to offer a seeker who is willing to rest. To trust the Church and engage in the practice of the faith. But for those who are determined to keep looking and grasping for certainty and will never be settled until they find it, they’re not going to find it here either.
Glad you found the channel and hope you enjoy Camus! His fiction is excellent as well.
@@GospelSimplicity I’ll give it a look!
I understand you. Follow peace.
You are right that you can spend your entire life chasing definitive answers without ever finding that ONE perfect answer to satisfy your judgement.
That’s the point though.
People get hooked on the process of finding answers and discussing the next new thing or the ancient thinkers with no intention of finding a final conclusion.
There’s also fear of making the decision and being wrong, like not getting married because 50% end in divorce.
It does come down to FAITH. This is two way Faith. God is Faithful. He is not out to trick us.
It's not a chasm that separates you, it's a river... The Tiber river to be precise. ❤
nothing is confusing if you are not forcing yourself to believe in what you're not justified to believe. you can just simply say: "I am not convinced. I don't have sufficient evidence to believe. I don't know"
Tough. I drifted to agnosticism. But I am beginning to think it’s not forever. I can never go back to Protestantism…I feel like the fruit of individualism that it has born bears witness to a fundamental flaw, so I could never sincerely embrace it without a nagging feeling (to put it lightly) that I have done so out of convenience. Not to mention knowing that I would feel like I was living a budget Christianity. On the other hand I struggle with some of the demands of the old denominations, especially Catholicism, to which I converted when I was 18, and the loneliness that I felt there towards the end. Not that agnosticism fixed that.
IDK.
Very honest...I admire that
What type of Protestant were you?
I liked to joke we were Protestant Protestants. The kind searching for the “Acts 2 church.” My mother was raised Lutheran, my father Baptist. From there to a “Bible Church,” and, by the time I remembered anything, home churches, some brushes with messianic Judaism (I still make latkes for Christmas) then non-denominational “community” churches, and spending half of my teenage years with Protestants of all stripes.
I then spent around 4 collective years during my Catholicism debating with Protestants.
@nabrzhunter Praying for you on your journey. I'm pretty dissatisfied with Protestantism as well and am discerning Catholicsm, something I never imagined I would say. I struggle with certain teachings, but have fallen in love with their Saints and profound wisdom. But the lack of Catholic community in many parishes is concerning. It is a Scandal that the Body of Christ is so broken. We all have different strengths and need each other to flourish. StIll I have seen God use Protestant Christians to advance His Kingdom in incredible, miraculous ways. So idk
Completely understandable. I never went full on agnostic but I flirted with it. I think Orthodoxy is the most pure expression of early Christianity but I can understand how people would come to different conclusions.
I often pray to God to help me with my many questions. I realize God probably answers with processes of transformation/learning as opposed to one-time instances of help/revelation. I think concretely what helps the Protestant - Ortothodox (and in part Catholic) dialogue is discussion of early church formation of dogma, with emphasis on:
- Nicaea 2(+Hiereia before and the synods after that cancelled and re-confirmed iconodulia)
- St Gregory Palamas' mariology, of which I confess I have to learn more about, but I know it defines a lot of the Holy Virgin's role in soteriology, also leading to hesychasm.
Thanks for the video btw, it's quite amazing how many people are going through the same process. This "exile" between denominations can make one feel quite alone, yet now I'm seeing many fellow Christians and parents go through the same thing. May God see our questions and (dare I say) struggle. I believe there is a lot of sincere longing for truth and clarity on these matters, and I pray God helps us all in this journey, as we knock over and over again asking for His guidance.
This is very wise. Everyone who spends a lot of time TRULY seeking which "one true church" is the one true church ends up becoming an existentialist - and therefore Protestant!
The argument against the one true Church is literally the same as Richard Dawkins one less God. You can't believe in a religion because all the other religions also claim to be real.
Just because two churches claim to be the One True Church, doesn't mean the One True Church doesn't exist.
I'm 75% sure you're trolling.
Why was it so easy for Ignatius and Co.? He knew exactly what the "true Church" was. And his understanding is still held by Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, and even some Anglicans. That's like 1.5+ Billion people right?
lol Protestantism and existentialism have one thing in common: Cope
@@haronsmith8974Protestants believe that those who truly place their faith in Christ are saved. The nicene creed is the sum of the faith. Therefore the One True Church is thr body of true believers. Not just catholics. Not just orthodox. Not just protestants.
I am on a similar journey. My biggest hangup is definitely the Eucharist so obviously I would need to convert because only EO and Catholics have valid Eucharist. I also believe the Keys actually carry valid authority so I am only left with Catholicism.
There are things I don't understand and things that I don't believe, but I know those areas are my leap of faith. I will submit to the valid authority of the church that Jesus established.
Brilliant explanation of these ideas.
Wonderfully insightful discussion. Did you see the documentary by Harmony on Hidden History of Early Christian Art yet?
I have not
@@GospelSimplicity Definitely worth watching. Would love to hear your comments on the "Hidden History of Early Christian Art" documentary on the Harmony TH-cam channel.
You just need a second channel: Church Complexity… and THERE you discuss philosophy and more complicated church theology xD
I don’t know if you’re a fan of the Indiana Jones movies, but you remind me of Indy in The Last Crusade, confronted with a seemingly insurmountable gap he must cross if he is to save his father’s life, only to find the path was there all along. His perspective just didn’t allow him to see it.
Your spiritual journey is your own, Austin. It will be as long or short as you need it to be. Fortunately for us all, God is patient and forgiving.
I relate a lot to this video. It is so counter-intuitive for many of us to think this way because the outcomes feel very black or white (heaven or hell), and so we feel our decision should also be a black-or-white rigid calculation. But working through OCD has taught me that what God expects us to trust in is Himself, not our own logic, yet at the same time we are still expected to use logic and reason in some way. More than anything I want an easy answer, no anxiety, and no struggle. I want to follow God, and I want certainty on how to do that. Instead what God offers me is a promise, "Seek and you will find," and an instruction, "Trust in the LORD with all your heart."
One other thing I'll add. It feels very odd that most people who make a leap of faith in this area are pretty evenly split between roman catholicism and eastern orthodoxy, churches that consider each other anathema (generally speaking). That concerns me and I can't really describe why.
BTW, I love philosophy.
Because a heavy study of church history basically shows these two positions to be the most coherent. If there is such a thing as “the one true church” it’s most likely Rome or Orthodoxy. The historical and theological data points to this conclusion.
@@countryboyred I was referring to the fact that there's a pretty even split between converts, which indicates that if there is a one true church, half the people who are right about there being a one true church are going to hell
@@kylie5741 not necessarily going to hell, but in serious error. Also numbers don’t really prove anything. If 99 percent of the earth was Muslim, would that make Islam true?
@@countryboyred "Not necessarily," but most likely, if there's no salvation outside the church.
I don't think that's an equivalent example because it's not like people who look into religion are split 50/50 between Christianity and Islam. Islam mostly spreads through birth rates.
@@countryboyred Probably or most likely going to hell. I totally agree that numbers don't prove who's right, but that's not an equivalent situation because people aren't split 50/50 between Islam and Christianity; Islam primarily spreads through birth rates. That still doesn't disprove the "one true church" theory though I will admit. I just think it's odd when people act as if they have a lot more epistemic certainty after joining one of those churches, because it doesn't seem like that is the case to me. Anyway I hope I'm not coming across like this disproves anything, it just helps me to write down my thoughts in random comment sections
Austin, I’m sure I’m not breaking any new ground here but maybe at this point it’s best just to simplify. On an intellectual level, you know all there is to know about the various Christian branches. Maybe just pray daily to the Holy Spirit to give you guidance and to point you in the direction you should go and just sit back then and wait for the guidance to come.
A large component of faith is the gentle knowledge in ones heart that it'll be OK because you're with Jesus. If ecclesial angst is damaging to this, then it is actually damaging to one's core faith. Now, the desire to be obedient and go to the best church, that's different. But that shouldn't leave you wrecked.
Certainty is an oxymoron to the definition of faith. Read: Ascent of Mount Carmel by St John of the Cross. He goes in depth in this very subject of certainty vs faith. Excellent book that is exactly what you are looking for.
Coming out of Protestantism, I just can’t believe there’s not a single true Church. Whether there was never a single institution to begin with, or whether it split and branched off, I just can’t accept that that’s what Christ founded with His apostles. It’s far easier to swallow Marian doctrines or historical claims that I don’t find explicit in the “evidence” than it is for me to believe that God didn’t establish and preserve the single, visible body of Christ. So, I agree with your reflection. For some it’s an object of faith, for some it’s not. The Orthodox Church definitely isn’t perfect, but I could never go back to Protestantism. I just don’t see how Protestant ecclesiology could possibly be true. That’s just me. God be with you all
Did Christ not preserve the Church built on Peter?
@ of course He did. It’s the Orthodox Church
@@foodforthought8308No.
@@foodforthought8308 of course. It’s the Orthodox Church
@@shobudski6776 Interesting. I assume you certainly wouldn't be implying that Christ's promise in Mathew 16 failed? Genuinely curious as a non Catholic Christian
I thought of going from Protestantism to Orthodoxy as getting the 'big picture' at last and in that sense my decision to convert was simple. Granted, before this I engaged in much puzzling, too.
i have thought ab these questions in these terms of late:
the freedom to doubt is a precondition for the freedom for faith. it appears all these evidences are always frustratingly sufficient (for either side) but never conclusive, and perhaps there is some purpose in this (depending on ur theology, ontology, epistemology, teleology, etc. . . my head is spinning 😅). the sense i get is that it’s almost all set up in honor of and in anticipation for your choice. this sacred choice that was gifted to men.
but ofc, i say this now. . . give me another two weeks and i’ll believe the opposite is the case. . . anyways, kudos!
What do you think of Brian Zahnd's approach of Ecclectic Christianity? He says he's protestant, but only by default, not because he's protesting. He incorporates theology from Orthodoxy in his sermons (and doesn't hold to penal substitution), shows icons on stage, etc. but the worship music in his church is basically rock music like a lot of the modern churches. In one of his latest sermons he called himself "rock 'n roll Anglican". I'd be cool if you could interview him on eccesial angst. Even though he has great admiration for Orthodox theology, he isn't anxious about becoming Orthodox and leaving behind his protestant flock.
❤ Brian Zahnd
But I appreciate the post on faith and ultimately taking the "leap" in other areas of your Christian faith.
Augustine testifies to how **reason puts man on the road toward God and how it is faith that informs and elevates reason** ,
taking it beyond its natural limitations while never being tyrannical or confining in any way.
He summarized this seemingly paradoxical fact in the famous dictum, “I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe” (Sermo 43:9).
I am praying for you.
Thank you
Great stuff brother
Rest knowing that the Lord tells us to seek. Everyone searching to doing what our Lord told us to do
What convince me to take the leap was that I became convinced that for reality to make any sense or have meaning it must be ordered in a hierarchical way, with different levels of organization and authority going down. Living in a world that is actively destroying this sacred order made it obvious after my life was falling apart. To me the Catholic church was that sacred order founded by the Lord and King Jesus Christ under the commandment of love that I could hold on to and trust in even if it is under attack as well by forces of chaos
I said a "hail Mary" for ya
Struggling….. life long Protestant who has been studying Catholicism and looking at EO. I just want to make the right decision but on info overload. Stressed out. All sides make good arguments. I have leaned towards Catholicism. Disappointed with many Protestant arguments against Catholicism which upon investigation don’t all seem to be accurate or maybe I am just leaning Catholic.
Thank you for this video. It really spoke to me! If the universal church is not one Religiously (many expressions of faith & practice) how do you believe we are one? In light of John 17
I found certainty in Agnosticism. It's easy to be certain that you don't know, all it takes is swallowing pride.
May I suggest reading "Logos Rising" by E. Michael Jones.
I appreciate your authenticity in these videos Austin. My question is, if our relationship with Christ is a matter of faith, wouldn’t the Church which is His body also be of a similar nature?
Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth (Christ). As an Orthodox Christian, I know that the Church is our Holy Mother, the Bride and Body of Christ. It is in the Church that Christ is with us till the close of the age, as He promised in the Gospels, through His Holy Mysteries. God bless you.
Genuine question: I remember you saying you’ve come to believe the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ. Do you believe this is only true within a valid priesthood? Or is it a subjective truth? Or what? Do you believe nondenom churches have the Eucharist?
I'm working on a video on that. Should be out in the next month or so
This is incredibly accurate to what I’m currently experiencing.. Is there any way I can reach out you you personally?
Great video.
Interesting video. I found myself in a similar position but one thing I didn’t see you mention was the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide the church in all truth. This guidance is active and for all time not just a point in time. For me, I had to believe there was truth somewhere that can be found or else the promise given by Christ regarding the Holy Spirit was false. That truth also had to be consistent over time and traceable throughout the ages. There’s a good St Vincent of Lerens quote that you’ve probably seen that discusses some of these topics you’re mentioning.
If I can give advice to anyone, as someone who has gone from Evangelical to Roman Catholic to Orthodox, is that, although the journey to make a decision may be tiring and nauseous, just remember that you're looking for the experience of the fullness of the Christian Faith, and not that the other options are totally wrong and damned. That's ultimately your Protestant influenced mindset. You need to be aware and break free from that.
Which monastery did this elder start in Maryland? I live in the DC area and would like to know.
St. Nina's
Love this video. As someone that went from Atheism, to Camus style absurdist subscriber, to Russian Orthodox convert, then ultimately realizing that Rome, Constantinople, Moscow, Canterbury, Utrecht, etc. all have valid orders, and there is no rational reason for me to reject any bishop with apostolic succession as invalid, I ultimately solved the existential crisis and left orthodoxy for Anglican Catholicism. The Via Media between them all. Most Holy Theotokos save us!
There is certainly truth, but i haven’t found at this point any compelling reason one or the other is the original. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Especially when reconciling the Eastern and Western church father’s writings.
Please start at band called “Ecclesial Angst”
😂😂😂
This recent video from Fr. Josiah Trenham feels relevant to this conversation.
th-cam.com/video/tHW0IAqqpKQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=iaf_ty822bfrBvxK
One issue is that we in general do not allow ourselves to consider other kinds of evidence. And TH-cam influencers don't give a crap.