I have always loved Sandra! She is born on the very same day, month, and year as my mother. It’s amazing to have that connection because Aries women are so special and talented- like Sandra!
THANK YOU Dave & Jonathan for inviting legendary Sandra Bezic again. This might be my favourite video of yours! Couldn't agree more about the tree vs. forest thing with the IJS. There is no wonder how almost all the younger girls' programs look identical, because like you said, the nuance, the respect for the music, and all "that" doesn't count, and it has got to. Having said that, I think the sport has evolved so much with the IJS. Case in point: There is so much more depth in Ice Dance programs now than in the 6.0 era, and I feel as though great single's step sequences e.g. Satoko's (how beautiful is hers?!) wouldn't have been born under the 6.0. So I can't decide. Is it the judging system that's the problem or application of it? Thanks again guys. This video has made me realise once again why I love skating so much.
As much as (men's) programs never being clean is kind of annoying, I agree with Sandra that the sport is currently going through growing pains (as all sports do).
Before anyone judges Zagitova's program, they should watch the particular segments adapted by her team in Don Quixote Pas de Deux - there are about 12 jumps and leaps "crammed" or "backloaded" in there to a thrilling, uplifting, musical phrasing. It is a particular highlight of the ballet performed to loud applause for a grand finale.
PC played it safe with their program this year, and as slow as it is, it was a smart decision. It's a style they've skated to many times before and they're familiar with it. However their lift scores compared to VM's shouldn't even come close, and that's where the ISU needs to make changes. The difficulty in moulin rouge far exceeds moonlight sonata
Thank you Sandra! I hope you continue to choreograph for skaters in the near future because your vision and intelligence is just second to none. Great video everyone :) edit: love Dave questioning why we have to interrupt Hotel California - that piece/V/M whole rhumba pattern and step sequence is the element of the season for me.
i agree that the way of judging loses the big pictures to elements and technicalities. For me the 1st time i so blatantly understood that was when Chan beat Takahashi at 2012 worlds. I think the tech scores and PCS must be given by 2 different sets of judges. 4 judges award all the GOEs on the elements and pay no attention to the program and then 4/5 judges judge the performance as a whole, the flow of the choreography, the skating skills, the quality of the transitions etc. That way the judges won't have that easy way out that they can't judge everything or can't differentiate because they don't have time etc. I also really think that they must harmonize the tech calls between events or even within events because the disparities are really wild and have like a judging camp on GOEs and PCS to review the fundamentals of judging.
Thanks for this video. It has been very informative particularly in explaining Scott and Tessa’s journey. I have been disappointed in their choice of music for an Olympic season , however , it may just work out. Renewed hope.
This was so enjoyable!! I don’t always agree with Ms. Bezic, but I so enjoyed hearing her point of view. It was nice to hear an insider POV and to be reminded that it’s all about the process. Thank you for a great This and That as always. 😄
M-F not being there was interesting, BUT more interesting was seeing Patrice with V/M and never with P/C. CBC (canada) coverage even had a shot of V/M arriving off the bus and walking in with Patrice.
First of all, YES about Didier. It’s unfair to both teams. If the French win its cause they’re so damn talented. I do agree with Jonathan about Moulin Rouge though I don’t hate it like some people do. And I also don’t love Moonlight Sonata like I’ve loved the French free dances in the past. I’m such a fan of both teams that I think my dream scenario was that V/M win gold in their last competition- they have meant so much to this sport and it’s such a fitting way to go out. And then the French dominate the next two Olympic cycles and win 2 golds of their own (and hopefully play around with different styles). This is pretty clearly not going to happen (except the French dominating the future part) and I think I’m just disappointed for Tessa and Scott- 2 more silvers feels anticlimactic for a team that in my opinion is the GOAT. Maybe I should write some ice dance fan fiction 🙄 thank you guys for this awesome interview!
Oh my god yes!! That sounds amazing!! I imagine there’s lots of weird Tessa/Scott fan fiction out there. Also I feel the need to add to my comment to say I also have a crush on Marie-France. I can’t wait to see her outfits for the Olympics
They skated the best they could on the day. The French were better on that particular day. But - not everyone gets the send-off they'd like. Usain Bolt didn't, and he is arguably the best sprinter, fastest sprinter, and cleanest sprinter who ever lived.
Can you expound on the differences between Canadian vs British Ice Dance point of views. Its mentioned in the video comparing the British broadcasters to Bezic. Thanks
I wish sandra would stick to choreography. I love her work with Lu Chen.... didn't enjoy her as a commentator as much, though to be fair she was one of the few who pointed out Kwan's flutz.
Interesting perspectives.....Where is Jenny Kirk? She was great. And why is Adam Rippon the face of Men’s skating in the opening? They’ve got the #1 skater(s) for all other disciplines then a random Adam for men’s.
You all blame Didier for attending the event and you suspect him of pushing P/C behind the scenes, with no proof whatsoever (and I'm not saying he's clean). But not a word about the president of the Canadian federation being a judge at the same event ? THAT is a fact, not a mere suspicion, and it is clearly a conflict of interest. At least Didier doesn't grade the skaters himself !
Ahhhh good old Didier. When you're corrupt as fuck and can't even bother to hide it on Twitter. Lol. That cheating pig shouldn't even be within 100 metres of any ISU event or official, and the fact that he's allowed to be the French fed president is a testament to how pathetic their federation is. Also the Canadian judge should NOT have been there, that wasn't cool. (I'm Canadian and I 100% agree.)
Also agree with Jonathan about V/M, it's the same issue with S/H in Pairs - they are choosing programs and strategies with the huge albatross of *The Olympics* over their heads, going for theatrics and big emotional drama to win, thereby losing a certain spontaneity, their personality, natural ease and flow. One can feel palpable stress! As a Canadian, Sandra isn't going to admit to any of that. On the whole, good program, but I disagree on certain points.
So you're saying VM should go for a safe Olympic program like PC? That an ambitious program like moulin rouge isn't worth performing for their last big competition for the rest of their careers? This is their third olympics and at this point in their careers, nobody knows themselves better than they do. People need to stop treating them like children
Moulin Rouge is used to death, so it cannot be said to be particularly innovative. There is no "safe" music or program. P/C's Moonlight Sonata has its thrilling, dynamic moments, it is actually very difficult to choreograph or skate to, even though it is a well known piece. P/C's advantage is of course they already have a masterpiece arrangement to work with, it is a matter of doing it justice and they did.
I don't get why Jonathan keeps acting like the sky is falling with VM using Moulin Rouge. We get it, you sing, and you have opinions that come from a professional background. But in no way should classical be used for every Olympic program. Get over it, it's now weeks before the Olympics and like Sandra said..they skated their own version of moonlight nearly a decade ago. They ticked that box and followed up with a variation of genres and styles throughout their career that their competitors can't even dream of doing. What I want to know is why TSL keeps praising PC for doing the same program year after year, because the hypocrisy is hilarious. God forbid Scott and Tessa want to end their career with an ambitious and stunning program, done their own way on their own terms. Maybe Moulin Rouge has a special backstory in their lives? Who the hell knows. Win or lose come Olympics, people need to show some damn respect for those two. This sport does not deserve them
And for the record, I'm also a fan of PC. I think their FD in particular is beautiful, but it's something we've seen before. However much people want to hate Tessa and Scott, their program is much more difficult and demanding. Take a look at their lifts for one example
B Salter first off, I do not think everyone needs to skate to classical music. Secondly, I have the utmost respect for V/M. Moulin Rouge doesn’t click with me...but it doesn’t have to. It only has to click for them. The Canadian fans especially criticize P/C for always skating flowy lyrical programs...but we have to remember that the judges aren’t looking at a portfolio or body of work. As Adelina and Yuna taught us in 2014, they aren’t handing out lifetime achievement awards. I genuinely like both teams and everyone is certainly entitled to different opinions and preferences. That is the joy of ice dance to me, that the same people can watch the same programs and have totally different responses. Yes, it is a sport...but ice dance is so much more than that because it can resonate with people on a visceral level in totally different ways.
So you're saying that you think VM's choice to do a heavy theatric program for the first time in their careers wasn't pushing the envelope enough, just because it's not your favorite music? So I'm guessing you agree that PC don't push the envelope at all seeing as they've skated the same FD for the last four seasons? Got it
My problem with V/M is that every time I see Moulin Rogue I become more and more bored with it. It's the exact opposite with the French, they just blow my mind every time I watch Moonlight Sonata. Both teams are great but the French are proving that it is their time and they are superior. Tessa and Scott are great, but their time has passed.
Abby Atwood I feel the exact opposite. PC moonlight sonata makes me want to sleep, and it's something I've seen from them before. For me, moulin rouge gets more electrifying each time. It just depends on your taste...I'd love for VM to go back to a program like umbrellas, but that was 10 years ago and they're different skaters now. I would however like to see PC do something completely out of their comfort zone, and I'm sure we'll see something like that in the future if they decide to stick around
Baokie X totally agree with you. The first time I watched MS I was mesmerized but every time after I've started getting bored with it. I feel like I'm getting deja vu when I watch it now. MR was hard to sell to me but I've grown to love it. Like even though I know what's coming, it surprises me and draws me in every time. Love what Sandra said too, VM were doing their MS 8 years ago, they needed to do something different and MR is what spoke to them.
Elizabeth Phillips I think they could have added more difficulty in their moulin rouge FD because they have done so much more before. For me it was a bit more simple than what they have done in the past. But it is definitely risky and I couldn't agree more with Beric's points.
I'm confused Jonathan. You say you're disappointed that didn't VM didn't take a bigger risk but you are totally ok with PC doing the same thing over & over? How does that even make any sense? Think about that for a minute.
Jonathan Beyer No...Sandra said Moonlight Sonata is PC's Mahler, not that PC are VM from 8 years ago. There's a big difference. My point is...VM did Mahler 8 years ago & moved on. They got chastised by Dave for Seasons 4 years later because it was like a sequel to Mahler. He even made sure to tell them not to do a trilogy. PC have been doing a version of Moonlight Sonata for years now...contemporary & lyrical. Why are VM held to such a high standard & expected to take more risks but PC are praised for doing the same style of dance over & over? You say it's because VM are capable of more...meaning PC are not?
Sandra is talking about how P/C are a very young team compared to the very mature and accomplished team of V/M. Yes, I expect more of V/M because I think they are capable of more. With great talent comes great responsibility. :) I think both teams are great and totally different...such a fulfilling dance field this season...all the top teams are so wonderful :)
When V/M first got on to the podium as seniors, they did it with Umbrellas of Cherboug. They followed it up with Pink Floyd, Mahler, Latin Medley, etc. P/C may be a younger team as compared to V/M, but this February will be their fourth time on the World Podium. They already have two golds and one silver. They've done a variation of the same for four years now. Why the double standard with expectations?
F D honestly? As a classical musician, something clicks emotionally and artistically for me with the French. I also find in ice dance, it easy to make excuses for those we like and easy to nitpick those we don’t. At the end of the day, they are both great teams and I’m excited for the Olympics. :)
There is clearly a generation gap between those who are used to lots of crossovers with skaters clearly telegraphing their jumps (Chen Lu, Tonya Harding, Midori Ito, etc.), lots of pauses in between elements, some simple dance steps on the ice, etc. and those who are used to the new era of choreography with many transitions in between jumps and other elements. All sports today are different from 20 years ago - we are now used to seeing more spectacular feats in everything from skiing to half-pipe. Figure skating has to go in the same direction to attract future generations. This is why the judges are rewarding the more spectacular skating programs going forward.
Yes and No. This is a competition, athletes are in it to win. If my choreographer isn't helping me to maximize my chances at winning, then she isn't doing her job. However, a good choreographer is also able to craft a masterpiece that moves the audience and judges, while maximizing the points. Once and for all, please watch the Don Quixote pas de deux segment before you complain about the "jumps cramming" because there are 12 jumps crammed in there to loud applause. Strange how one can claim to be some expert at choreography and not understand that the particular musical phrasing is designed for leaps and jumps.
What one notices reveals more about the person than one's claims. I saw a great program, as did the panels of judges who kept giving Alina her top scores. It is you who is missing the forest for the trees. An idiot's opinion on the internet or knowledgeable judges who need to defend their judgment and reputation - wow, that's a really difficult choice!
Why do you have such attitude towards skaters who backload? If the program is made wisely and is skated clean, that's OK and should be reflected in the scores. I feel like she blames Russian skaters who do so just because it's more difficult to jump everything in the second half and she knows it. And also it seems to be impossible to do something for Osmond or Kostner, so she's praising their PCS. Yes, Carolina skates amazing, she's one of the best of all time. Meanwhile Osmond... doubt that, especially in the free.
Татьяна Бастракова her argument is with the choreographic approach. That it becomes about gaining points instead of creating an emotive program. Her real concern is with IJS. She hopes the rules change so skaters don’t have to do that just for points.
Eriniya I have never been a Nationalistic fan...and I’m not Canadian anyway. I like who I like. I saw Zagitova and Osmond in person for the GP in France. Osmond creates a different impact in person because of speed. On a Russian front, I wish Sotskova was receiving higher PCS. I also thought Kostornaia’s PCS could have been higher in the JGPF. A very special skater! :)
There is no North American "compact" in skating. Canada is fiercely loyal to its own. Did you notice how Sandra avoided ever directly criticizing V and M and Kaetlyn Osmond? And the US really doesn't care about Canada except when they are the competition, as V and M were in 2010 and 2014. (And I would add that, for me personally, my next favorite skaters after my favorite Americans are the Japanese).
I am so disappointed with VM's choice this year. I know they cannot win Olympic Gold this year with Moulin Rouge or their short dance program to non-Latin music.
Actually technically VMs music are classified as Latin Rock (i don't think Hotel California is but the other two songs are) so yes indeed... it is latin music.
Baokie X - Of course they didn't select their music based on what I was thinking. But, they certainly had one goal in mind when they chose their programs - Olympic gold medal. So, it is my opinion that these programs will not achieve their goal. To be very clear, I am a HUGE VM fan! I was fortunate to see their performances in Vancouver.... So this is supposed to be constructive criticism only because I adore VM!
As for "balance", the ISU rules do not dictate placement of elements, simply that they must be given proportionate weight. It is akin to eating a balanced diet with the right proportion of vegetables, protein, fats, carbs, etc. There's nothing unbalanced about having a steak in the morning and cereals at dinner - it is still balanced but conservatives who must have their meals in a certain order will find the former "unbalanced". So glad that the ISU are not setting rules to limit the creative space for choreography, reducing variety or we will all see more or less similar layouts. Already all programs end in spins! Why is it hurting some people to see *one* backloaded program out of hundreds of non-backloaded programs? Have we become so intolerant as a people we can't let *one* skater have her way?
Still, we don't know if it will be a scourge yet. What if North Americans start backloading and winning? I bet it will suddenly be acceptable. The point is it shouldn't matter if it is front-loaded, evenly loaded or backloaded, it should be, like everyone said, all about the overall program. If you watch the ballet, Don Quixote Pas de Deux is a "jumps backloaded" program. It isn't "balanced", and it's not meant to be - if they put 3 jumps in the middle and fewer jumps at the climax, it will be completely wrong as it deflates the intention of the jumps climax. There is no such thing as an ideal distribution of elements, it's how the program is designed to achieve a certain impact - the bigger picture. So each program shouldn't be judged based on how they load the jumps, but how the overall program works in the end. Loading shouldn't even be a topic.
At 1:01:30, Sandra Bezic gave the *correct* definition of *balance* - it's about high levels for all elements, not just jumps. It's never been about the distribution in time of the elements - that should be left to the creativity of the choreography, the overall impact and intent of the programs. Ironically, she expressed a desire for freedom of choreography! She also gushed about Jason's split jumps and other intricate moves but neglected the elephant in the room - Alina Zagitova did those and a lot more, but no one praised her for them.
Jonathan Beyer I guess it doesn't bother some people when there's an entire crowd of backload queens whose programs are all the exact same thing over and over again. Yawn. I don't see personality in any of them, just robotic movements being performed by memory. Then again, then again, then again... Zagitova is actually the most tolerable of them for me. I mean, at least she smiles and looks like she might be enjoying herself.
I don't think this is about Russians vs North Americans...no one blames Eteri for capitalizing on the system and the points. The issue is that the rules should change so that doesn't become a trend just for points' sake.
"Why is Didier even there? Why hasn't he been banned?" Bless Sandra.
I love Sandra. Such smart lady! And great questions guys!! :D
I have always loved Sandra! She is born on the very same day, month, and year as my mother.
It’s amazing to have that connection because Aries women are so special and talented- like Sandra!
THANK YOU Dave & Jonathan for inviting legendary Sandra Bezic again. This might be my favourite video of yours!
Couldn't agree more about the tree vs. forest thing with the IJS. There is no wonder how almost all the younger girls' programs look identical, because like you said, the nuance, the respect for the music, and all "that" doesn't count, and it has got to.
Having said that, I think the sport has evolved so much with the IJS. Case in point: There is so much more depth in Ice Dance programs now than in the 6.0 era, and I feel as though great single's step sequences e.g. Satoko's (how beautiful is hers?!) wouldn't have been born under the 6.0. So I can't decide. Is it the judging system that's the problem or application of it?
Thanks again guys. This video has made me realise once again why I love skating so much.
As much as (men's) programs never being clean is kind of annoying, I agree with Sandra that the sport is currently going through growing pains (as all sports do).
lexi smith 🕴l
47:24 - "Celebrate the performance"
Words of gold.
Before anyone judges Zagitova's program, they should watch the particular segments adapted by her team in Don Quixote Pas de Deux - there are about 12 jumps and leaps "crammed" or "backloaded" in there to a thrilling, uplifting, musical phrasing. It is a particular highlight of the ballet performed to loud applause for a grand finale.
PC played it safe with their program this year, and as slow as it is, it was a smart decision. It's a style they've skated to many times before and they're familiar with it. However their lift scores compared to VM's shouldn't even come close, and that's where the ISU needs to make changes. The difficulty in moulin rouge far exceeds moonlight sonata
Thank you for uploading something ... having a really difficult time, needed something to distract myself, I really appreciate this channel so much.
Michael Panayi there is a second recap video coming as well! :)
like Chopin to my ears, can't wait!
Michael Panayi Hope you're feeling better! ❤
"To be the Black Swan, you gotta find your inner bitch."
LOVE IT. Awesome interview!
I'll miss Sandra's heartfelt commentary and excitement factor. Too bad NBC never seems to let any of its commentators be forthright.
Great great show.
It’s almost 1 am here but who cares sleep isn’t a priority! So excited!!!!and Jonathan is so cuuuuute!
Thank you Sandra! I hope you continue to choreograph for skaters in the near future because your vision and intelligence is just second to none. Great video everyone :)
edit: love Dave questioning why we have to interrupt Hotel California - that piece/V/M whole rhumba pattern and step sequence is the element of the season for me.
i agree that the way of judging loses the big pictures to elements and technicalities. For me the 1st time i so blatantly understood that was when Chan beat Takahashi at 2012 worlds. I think the tech scores and PCS must be given by 2 different sets of judges. 4 judges award all the GOEs on the elements and pay no attention to the program and then 4/5 judges judge the performance as a whole, the flow of the choreography, the skating skills, the quality of the transitions etc. That way the judges won't have that easy way out that they can't judge everything or can't differentiate because they don't have time etc. I also really think that they must harmonize the tech calls between events or even within events because the disparities are really wild and have like a judging camp on GOEs and PCS to review the fundamentals of judging.
I can listen to Sandra talk all day~
Can’t wait to listen!
BmcC102 your picture is so cute!
Jonathan Bickford lol, thanks. 😜
Loved listening and watching! Sandra is so great.
Thanks for this video. It has been very informative particularly in explaining Scott and Tessa’s journey. I have been disappointed in their choice of music for an Olympic season , however , it may just work out. Renewed hope.
Anne MacMullen me too. I loved their latch fd more but when I watched this interview and when I watched their Nationals my hope is renewed.
Yes! Been waiting all day for this..Rushed home to listen ..
at 46:51... EXACTLY, well said. The IJS system is not working. How long are we going to continue trying to explain it?
This was so enjoyable!! I don’t always agree with Ms. Bezic, but I so enjoyed hearing her point of view. It was nice to hear an insider POV and to be reminded that it’s all about the process. Thank you for a great This and That as always. 😄
M-F not being there was interesting, BUT more interesting was seeing Patrice with V/M and never with P/C. CBC (canada) coverage even had a shot of V/M arriving off the bus and walking in with Patrice.
First of all, YES about Didier. It’s unfair to both teams. If the French win its cause they’re so damn talented. I do agree with Jonathan about Moulin Rouge though I don’t hate it like some people do. And I also don’t love Moonlight Sonata like I’ve loved the French free dances in the past. I’m such a fan of both teams that I think my dream scenario was that V/M win gold in their last competition- they have meant so much to this sport and it’s such a fitting way to go out. And then the French dominate the next two Olympic cycles and win 2 golds of their own (and hopefully play around with different styles). This is pretty clearly not going to happen (except the French dominating the future part) and I think I’m just disappointed for Tessa and Scott- 2 more silvers feels anticlimactic for a team that in my opinion is the GOAT. Maybe I should write some ice dance fan fiction 🙄 thank you guys for this awesome interview!
Libby Propp there used to be a Canadian fan fiction site about V and M having a secret child. We must find it in the internet wayback machine.
Oh my god yes!! That sounds amazing!! I imagine there’s lots of weird Tessa/Scott fan fiction out there. Also I feel the need to add to my comment to say I also have a crush on Marie-France. I can’t wait to see her outfits for the Olympics
They skated the best they could on the day. The French were better on that particular day. But - not everyone gets the send-off they'd like. Usain Bolt didn't, and he is arguably the best sprinter, fastest sprinter, and cleanest sprinter who ever lived.
Dave is right though, about Alina's awkward turn on the ice and Osmond being more of a Broadway Babe.
Hey Jonathan, I see the tilt in Kaetlyn’s jump as well. You aren’t the only one. :)
Reminds of Plushenko's tilt in his jumps - lots of power to control!
I see it too! It's big but also scary.
Just when I had motivation to study for finals... oh well!
Me though
oh thank you thank you :-)
Can you expound on the differences between Canadian vs British Ice Dance point of views. Its mentioned in the video comparing the British broadcasters to Bezic. Thanks
Osmond - salsa, rhumba are her calling!
A theatrical program is not their strength.... They can dance on ice!!! That is their strength!
Interesting insights. And the reference to the art from From the Heart is fun to see. I went to that show back in '89.
They're real people.
I wish sandra would stick to choreography. I love her work with Lu Chen.... didn't enjoy her as a commentator as much, though to be fair she was one of the few who pointed out Kwan's flutz.
Interesting perspectives.....Where is Jenny Kirk? She was great. And why is Adam Rippon the face of Men’s skating in the opening? They’ve got the #1 skater(s) for all other disciplines then a random Adam for men’s.
You all blame Didier for attending the event and you suspect him of pushing P/C behind the scenes, with no proof whatsoever (and I'm not saying he's clean). But not a word about the president of the Canadian federation being a judge at the same event ? THAT is a fact, not a mere suspicion, and it is clearly a conflict of interest. At least Didier doesn't grade the skaters himself !
Ahhhh good old Didier. When you're corrupt as fuck and can't even bother to hide it on Twitter. Lol. That cheating pig shouldn't even be within 100 metres of any ISU event or official, and the fact that he's allowed to be the French fed president is a testament to how pathetic their federation is. Also the Canadian judge should NOT have been there, that wasn't cool. (I'm Canadian and I 100% agree.)
Can Jenny Kirk join a future epsidode as the 3rd person like you did with La?
Also agree with Jonathan about V/M, it's the same issue with S/H in Pairs - they are choosing programs and strategies with the huge albatross of *The Olympics* over their heads, going for theatrics and big emotional drama to win, thereby losing a certain spontaneity, their personality, natural ease and flow. One can feel palpable stress! As a Canadian, Sandra isn't going to admit to any of that. On the whole, good program, but I disagree on certain points.
So you're saying VM should go for a safe Olympic program like PC? That an ambitious program like moulin rouge isn't worth performing for their last big competition for the rest of their careers? This is their third olympics and at this point in their careers, nobody knows themselves better than they do. People need to stop treating them like children
Moulin Rouge is used to death, so it cannot be said to be particularly innovative. There is no "safe" music or program. P/C's Moonlight Sonata has its thrilling, dynamic moments, it is actually very difficult to choreograph or skate to, even though it is a well known piece. P/C's advantage is of course they already have a masterpiece arrangement to work with, it is a matter of doing it justice and they did.
Dave and his segues tho...
For everyone complaining about VM's music...Sandra Bezic just destroyed all of you
Baokie X I felt she actually went the opposite way and saw both sides to it.
I really like what she said, especially that she wasn't dismissing Moulin Rouge because it is not another classical piece.
Flow was only better because the program lends itself toward it.
Sarah Hughes pulled the rabbit out of the hat.
I don't get why Jonathan keeps acting like the sky is falling with VM using Moulin Rouge. We get it, you sing, and you have opinions that come from a professional background. But in no way should classical be used for every Olympic program. Get over it, it's now weeks before the Olympics and like Sandra said..they skated their own version of moonlight nearly a decade ago. They ticked that box and followed up with a variation of genres and styles throughout their career that their competitors can't even dream of doing. What I want to know is why TSL keeps praising PC for doing the same program year after year, because the hypocrisy is hilarious. God forbid Scott and Tessa want to end their career with an ambitious and stunning program, done their own way on their own terms. Maybe Moulin Rouge has a special backstory in their lives? Who the hell knows. Win or lose come Olympics, people need to show some damn respect for those two. This sport does not deserve them
And for the record, I'm also a fan of PC. I think their FD in particular is beautiful, but it's something we've seen before. However much people want to hate Tessa and Scott, their program is much more difficult and demanding. Take a look at their lifts for one example
B Salter first off, I do not think everyone needs to skate to classical music. Secondly, I have the utmost respect for V/M. Moulin Rouge doesn’t click with me...but it doesn’t have to. It only has to click for them. The Canadian fans especially criticize P/C for always skating flowy lyrical programs...but we have to remember that the judges aren’t looking at a portfolio or body of work. As Adelina and Yuna taught us in 2014, they aren’t handing out lifetime achievement awards. I genuinely like both teams and everyone is certainly entitled to different opinions and preferences. That is the joy of ice dance to me, that the same people can watch the same programs and have totally different responses. Yes, it is a sport...but ice dance is so much more than that because it can resonate with people on a visceral level in totally different ways.
So you're saying that you think VM's choice to do a heavy theatric program for the first time in their careers wasn't pushing the envelope enough, just because it's not your favorite music? So I'm guessing you agree that PC don't push the envelope at all seeing as they've skated the same FD for the last four seasons? Got it
Love Sandra. Impossible to see the painting and Emmy talked about in the beginning of the vid 🙄
She moves the camera and you can see it.
TheSkatingLesson I saw it but it was so fast and blurry it was hard to make out :(
My problem with V/M is that every time I see Moulin Rogue I become more and more bored with it. It's the exact opposite with the French, they just blow my mind every time I watch Moonlight Sonata. Both teams are great but the French are proving that it is their time and they are superior. Tessa and Scott are great, but their time has passed.
Abby Atwood I feel the exact opposite. PC moonlight sonata makes me want to sleep, and it's something I've seen from them before. For me, moulin rouge gets more electrifying each time. It just depends on your taste...I'd love for VM to go back to a program like umbrellas, but that was 10 years ago and they're different skaters now. I would however like to see PC do something completely out of their comfort zone, and I'm sure we'll see something like that in the future if they decide to stick around
Absolutely agree, Abby!
Baokie X totally agree with you. The first time I watched MS I was mesmerized but every time after I've started getting bored with it. I feel like I'm getting deja vu when I watch it now. MR was hard to sell to me but I've grown to love it. Like even though I know what's coming, it surprises me and draws me in every time. Love what Sandra said too, VM were doing their MS 8 years ago, they needed to do something different and MR is what spoke to them.
Moonlight Sonata is monotonous and overrated. I get bored midway through the program. Moulin Rouge is dynamic and still changing.
Elizabeth Phillips I think they could have added more difficulty in their moulin rouge FD because they have done so much more before. For me it was a bit more simple than what they have done in the past. But it is definitely risky and I couldn't agree more with Beric's points.
I'm confused Jonathan. You say you're disappointed that didn't VM didn't take a bigger risk but you are totally ok with PC doing the same thing over & over? How does that even make any sense? Think about that for a minute.
Dencan because V/M are capable of more. As Sandra beautifully stated, P/C are V/M 8 years ago.
Jonathan Beyer No...Sandra said Moonlight Sonata is PC's Mahler, not that PC are VM from 8 years ago. There's a big difference.
My point is...VM did Mahler 8 years ago & moved on. They got chastised by Dave for Seasons 4 years later because it was like a sequel to Mahler. He even made sure to tell them not to do a trilogy. PC have been doing a version of Moonlight Sonata for years now...contemporary & lyrical. Why are VM held to such a high standard & expected to take more risks but PC are praised for doing the same style of dance over & over? You say it's because VM are capable of more...meaning PC are not?
Sandra is talking about how P/C are a very young team compared to the very mature and accomplished team of V/M. Yes, I expect more of V/M because I think they are capable of more. With great talent comes great responsibility. :) I think both teams are great and totally different...such a fulfilling dance field this season...all the top teams are so wonderful :)
When V/M first got on to the podium as seniors, they did it with Umbrellas of Cherboug. They followed it up with Pink Floyd, Mahler, Latin Medley, etc.
P/C may be a younger team as compared to V/M, but this February will be their fourth time on the World Podium. They already have two golds and one silver. They've done a variation of the same for four years now.
Why the double standard with expectations?
F D honestly? As a classical musician, something clicks emotionally and artistically for me with the French. I also find in ice dance, it easy to make excuses for those we like and easy to nitpick those we don’t. At the end of the day, they are both great teams and I’m excited for the Olympics. :)
MS is boring I can't believe people find it better than MR.
There is clearly a generation gap between those who are used to lots of crossovers with skaters clearly telegraphing their jumps (Chen Lu, Tonya Harding, Midori Ito, etc.), lots of pauses in between elements, some simple dance steps on the ice, etc. and those who are used to the new era of choreography with many transitions in between jumps and other elements. All sports today are different from 20 years ago - we are now used to seeing more spectacular feats in everything from skiing to half-pipe. Figure skating has to go in the same direction to attract future generations. This is why the judges are rewarding the more spectacular skating programs going forward.
Yes and No. This is a competition, athletes are in it to win. If my choreographer isn't helping me to maximize my chances at winning, then she isn't doing her job. However, a good choreographer is also able to craft a masterpiece that moves the audience and judges, while maximizing the points. Once and for all, please watch the Don Quixote pas de deux segment before you complain about the "jumps cramming" because there are 12 jumps crammed in there to loud applause. Strange how one can claim to be some expert at choreography and not understand that the particular musical phrasing is designed for leaps and jumps.
Oh, that thing is *your taste* indeed. Thanks but no thanks, I'll stick with the classy ballet.
What one notices reveals more about the person than one's claims. I saw a great program, as did the panels of judges who kept giving Alina her top scores. It is you who is missing the forest for the trees. An idiot's opinion on the internet or knowledgeable judges who need to defend their judgment and reputation - wow, that's a really difficult choice!
Why do you have such attitude towards skaters who backload? If the program is made wisely and is skated clean, that's OK and should be reflected in the scores. I feel like she blames Russian skaters who do so just because it's more difficult to jump everything in the second half and she knows it. And also it seems to be impossible to do something for Osmond or Kostner, so she's praising their PCS. Yes, Carolina skates amazing, she's one of the best of all time. Meanwhile Osmond... doubt that, especially in the free.
Татьяна Бастракова her argument is with the choreographic approach. That it becomes about gaining points instead of creating an emotive program. Her real concern is with IJS. She hopes the rules change so skaters don’t have to do that just for points.
Eriniya I have never been a Nationalistic fan...and I’m not Canadian anyway. I like who I like. I saw Zagitova and Osmond in person for the GP in France. Osmond creates a different impact in person because of speed. On a Russian front, I wish Sotskova was receiving higher PCS. I also thought Kostornaia’s PCS could have been higher in the JGPF. A very special skater! :)
I thought Osmond was Canadian, not American.
Eriniya but you’ll find there is zero allegiance between the two countries and skating. Just look at 2014 dance!
There is no North American "compact" in skating. Canada is fiercely loyal to its own. Did you notice how Sandra avoided ever directly criticizing V and M and Kaetlyn Osmond? And the US really doesn't care about Canada except when they are the competition, as V and M were in 2010 and 2014. (And I would add that, for me personally, my next favorite skaters after my favorite Americans are the Japanese).
I am so disappointed with VM's choice this year. I know they cannot win Olympic Gold this year with Moulin Rouge or their short dance program to non-Latin music.
Courtney Rubin I'm sure VM were thinking about you when they were choosing their music. PC's SD music is to a pop song with a badly edited Latin beat
Actually technically VMs music are classified as Latin Rock (i don't think Hotel California is but the other two songs are) so yes indeed... it is latin music.
R J you talking about VMs music or PCs music? Or both?
Baokie X - Of course they didn't select their music based on what I was thinking. But, they certainly had one goal in mind when they chose their programs - Olympic gold medal. So, it is my opinion that these programs will not achieve their goal. To be very clear, I am a HUGE VM fan! I was fortunate to see their performances in Vancouver.... So this is supposed to be constructive criticism only because I adore VM!
As for "balance", the ISU rules do not dictate placement of elements, simply that they must be given proportionate weight. It is akin to eating a balanced diet with the right proportion of vegetables, protein, fats, carbs, etc. There's nothing unbalanced about having a steak in the morning and cereals at dinner - it is still balanced but conservatives who must have their meals in a certain order will find the former "unbalanced". So glad that the ISU are not setting rules to limit the creative space for choreography, reducing variety or we will all see more or less similar layouts. Already all programs end in spins! Why is it hurting some people to see *one* backloaded program out of hundreds of non-backloaded programs? Have we become so intolerant as a people we can't let *one* skater have her way?
Curious Curious every single Eteri jr skater backloaded. It’s not about one. It’s about the beginning of a trend.
Still, we don't know if it will be a scourge yet. What if North Americans start backloading and winning? I bet it will suddenly be acceptable. The point is it shouldn't matter if it is front-loaded, evenly loaded or backloaded, it should be, like everyone said, all about the overall program. If you watch the ballet, Don Quixote Pas de Deux is a "jumps backloaded" program. It isn't "balanced", and it's not meant to be - if they put 3 jumps in the middle and fewer jumps at the climax, it will be completely wrong as it deflates the intention of the jumps climax. There is no such thing as an ideal distribution of elements, it's how the program is designed to achieve a certain impact - the bigger picture. So each program shouldn't be judged based on how they load the jumps, but how the overall program works in the end. Loading shouldn't even be a topic.
At 1:01:30, Sandra Bezic gave the *correct* definition of *balance* - it's about high levels for all elements, not just jumps. It's never been about the distribution in time of the elements - that should be left to the creativity of the choreography, the overall impact and intent of the programs. Ironically, she expressed a desire for freedom of choreography! She also gushed about Jason's split jumps and other intricate moves but neglected the elephant in the room - Alina Zagitova did those and a lot more, but no one praised her for them.
Jonathan Beyer I guess it doesn't bother some people when there's an entire crowd of backload queens whose programs are all the exact same thing over and over again. Yawn. I don't see personality in any of them, just robotic movements being performed by memory. Then again, then again, then again... Zagitova is actually the most tolerable of them for me. I mean, at least she smiles and looks like she might be enjoying herself.
I don't think this is about Russians vs North Americans...no one blames Eteri for capitalizing on the system and the points. The issue is that the rules should change so that doesn't become a trend just for points' sake.