Sleep Clause was JUST BANNED...So I spam RELIC SONG Meloetta!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ต.ค. 2024
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Sleep moves have been banned and sleep clause has been removed in Pokemon Scarlet and Violet so today we spam Relic Song Meloetta!
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asfgerthrrth Enjoy!
Me clicking thinking AIN'T NO WAY they scrapped sleep clause, only for it to be _sleep_ that got banned, and the clause removed as collateral damage lol
I thought, “what a dumb ban, why they do that” then watched the video and said “what tf this ban is way worse somehow” 😂
Amoongus you may be missed.
can't ban Darkrai or Valiant because we really Need the "washed threats"
@@Mepphy99 It's called 'OU' for a reason. Yes, they're very strong Pokes that flirt with the limits - but you act like they're Pheramosa or Genesect levels of busted lol. Now back on topic; Sleep _does_ make Darkrai etc totally busted and games dissolve into ''I click A 5 timez and winz hehe dummmy!1''
@@netweed09games dissolve into "if I win a coin flip I win the game otherwise I lose the mon"
i was fine with smogon bans before but doing a sleep ban for every tier because two mons were broken with Hypnosis is the most insane thing in smogon history.
Literally just suspect Darkrai and Valiant, no one cared about sleep before Hypnosis on those 2 came into meta.
And H-Lilligant and that one guy on high ladder using Red's in-game team and abusing Venusaur sleep powder but yea. Sleep was cheap and im glad it's gone but lower tiers having to deal with it too must be frustrating for them, just how the tiering system works ig
sleep is just broken and it always has been, there is no solution besides banning sleep and that should have also included any RNG sleep moves. they want showdown to emulate cartridge gameplay but sleep clause is a fanmade mod that can't exist in game. it's shocking to me how more people haven't realized how completely incompetent the people running this site are - it literally took them over a decade to get this through their heads. not to mention this is far from the only mechanic that doesn't function correctly, the activation order of abilities/items that trigger when pokemon are sent out is completely wrong for example. and who knows how many bugged items like metronome there currently are, people were sounding the alarm for years before they even acknowledged yet alone fixed it.
and of course to make it even worse the people in charge of bans are mostly unskilled players that consistently make terrible decisions, like leaving baton pass unbanned for over a decade, repeating the same mistake for months with shed tail, a LOT of very questionable quickbans/unbans, leaving tera unbanned, i could go on forever... it's only gotten worse with each generation as they've increasingly relied on quickbans decided by a council of morons over suspect tests. I don't believe there's any hope for showdown left tbh, the neckbearded losers who get off on LARPing as some kind of government board are too entrenched in this community. just hoping we get a game soon with a new IP that's modeled after pokemon combat and sensibly tweaked for competitive balance
i find it so stupid that sleep is either just as controversial of a ban if not more than tera, but they just skipped the sleep vote because...?
They won't do complex bans cuz it's too complicated for ppl to understand such complexity lmao
I'd never in my life entrust smogon to do sensible balance choices anymore
This is one of the best intros I’ve ever seen
Doc Aim's entire editing budget went into the first 28 seconds
please, don’t say one of
Obviously, I don't even have Aim's credentials of actually playing hours per day with a decent record, but the way I see it: If the council had given themselves the vote only between suspect or no action, no one would have bitched about "why didn't the council have the option to ban sleep without a test"
Don't get it twisted; that *has* been a problem with other tiering action in the past with obviously-broken stuff, and you can make the argument that the game keeps getting powercrept and at SOME point Smogon would have to go back to the drawing board on Stadium-style Sleep Clause vs total ban, but this deep into the generation? When they just released a powerful Sleep-centered mon? Just give Darkrai their props and let them be niche UUbers instead of trying to force them to stay in OU; doing a sleep ban over Hypnosis Darkrai/Val feels like trying to ban Jet Punch instead of Palafin.
I definitely agree that context within hypnosis vs yawn/spore plays a huge factor into the ban. I think this gen is way too ban happy and sometimes I don’t believe their methodology is always justifiable, but also I’m just one person. Maybe they’ll make adjustments afterwards if there’s enough backlash or disagreement or whatever.
Horrible choice banning an entire status condition is way out of line. Comes across power hungry to me
Don't get why singles players even follow Smogon, a non official source. That's why I moved to doubles, but I still enjoy watching singles
@@litaf4889 singles captures my imagination because that's how you play in game and how the anime formats battles as well.. singles was traditionally the flagship battle forum and doubles was more a novelty
Aside from this and maybe volcarona I don’t see how this gen “is way too ban happy” it does have a lot of banned mons but most were suspected on and the ones that were quick banned for the most part the community agreed with. If they suspected everything we’d end up with what happened witu blood moon
@@litaf4889personally, I just ended up finding singles more fun (although I still play vgc time to time). Vgc early in SV was fun, but it eventually became so top heavy that now it feels impossible to squeeze anything but the top 10 mons. Plus I just like longer games, and in vgc it oftentimes feels like the winner of the match can be decided in a single turn (or as early whoever has the better lead)
I know it's not super-relevant to anything with the Sleep-related bans, but shoutout to the person at 20:20 who named their whole team after people from the Arthurian mythos, that would've made high school me very happy to see
Iron Valiant could run the exact Hypnosis sets that just got sleep banned since day 1. This wasn't even a conversation back then. Only now that Darkrai is in OU has sleep suddenly become an issue. With that context alone I feel like banning/suspecting Darkrai would've been way more sensible. Plus I feel like by not banning stuff like Dire Claw or Effect Spore, sleep could possibly become more game determinative since you can now sleep more than one Pokemon with those, especially in the lower tiers where the Effect Spore mons are actually viable. Just seems short sighted if anything.
I stand by that they should have just banned either only hypnosis or only not fully accurate sleep. And kept sleep clause
Swagger + Foul Play was banned in gen 6, meanwhile the combo was around for waaaaaaay longer than that. If a tool is broken but no one is around to notice it, does it affect the meta?
@@natnew32 If tons of Pokemon have access to a tool but only two, arguably three, take advantage of it to a broken extent, is it the tool that's broken or the abusers? I say the abusers.
@@joewoloson1224 I'm responding to the point about iron Valliant having it since day 1. It was nice when people didn't know it could do that, but the cat's out of the bag soooooo that's not really possible to get back to.
Also more people said they wanted action on sleep as a whole vs just these two individually, so while I think a suspect was 100% warranted, going after Sleep first makes sense.
Wait they’re banned in all tiers below OU? I thought that was just in OU.
That’s even worse! Holy shit that was a terrible decision
No? It’s just OU why’d you think that?
@@eoin..What? No, it's OU and all tiers below.
@@eoin.. because they’re playing NU and it says in the battle “sleep inducing moves are banned.”
Edit: I just tested it in NU, loaded up sing altaria and it rejected the team.
@@itztaytay2 wow. I can see that being the case with mons but with mechanics/items etc. I feel like that’s just way too much collateral.
@@alanm966oh shot didn’t realize, I do not agree with it in that case
I feel like iron val/darkrai shouldve been tested personally before resorting to sleep ban. A big argument is the "if he lands this 60% accurate move i lose but if he doesnt i win" chance but it hasnt been a problem after gen 5 (to my garbage memory correct me if im wrong) because the hypnosis abuser wasnt enough on their own to sweep teams like iron val/darkrai could if they setup and disable a mon. Yeah red card amoonguss is frustrating to deal with but it wasnt sweeping teams at least. I also feel like not enough time was given to develop the meta around checking these sleep sets before gutting it right away like heal bell users, but thats possibly wishful thinking and maybe they were too strong to even have decent checks. I also think people voted on the survey just for disliking sleep because sleep in general is a really unfun mechanic to deal with even if its part of the game, but sleep clause at least limited how stupid it could be
Also priority and like 5 game mechanics help counter it
I think I have to agree as previously sleep hasn't been a huge issue in the tier and it would appear that these hypnosis sets on Darkrai and Iron Val push them both over the edge. We have banned pokemon in the past after people discovered sets that push them over the edge into uncompetitive territory, it just so happens that both of these sets use hypnosis.
Just send Darkrai to back to Ubers if they wanna pull this nonsense.
Can we just ban water-types as well while we're at it? They're generally quite bulky, have great offensive coverage with the ice-moves they usually have while only having 2 weaknesses and l just dont like dealing with them. Water-moves get a 50% damage boost in rain which is insane. Some of the best mons of all times were water-type, think Keldeo, Kyogre-Primal, Dewgong, Greninja and Arceus-Water. Altogether l'd say water-types are pretty clearly inducing an uncompetitive meta and l'd like to see them banned.
l dont think this really requires a suspect test, so let's just get on with it :]
i like how you mention dewgong in the same way that the smogon council mentions absolutely stupid choices like how when they were banning annihilape from doubles ou they brought up vital spirit being uncompetitive which is hilarious because vital spirit is a genuinely awful ability and annihilape isn't even as dangerous as terrakion is when you're doing beat up strats yet terrakion isn't banned because terrakion has been pretty quiet for over a decade in singles but in gen 9 singles ape was a very loud presence in the format.
they did it again by bringing up hisuian lilligant as a sleep abuser with the sleep ban and i'm gonna be real if you're losing to a pokemon with half their set dedicated to utility that can't touch gholdengo at all you're just a bad player.
i respected most earlier bans especially with regard to singles but some of these bans really just feel like they're done in bad faith because the smogon council just doesn't like a pokemon or a mechanic rather than the pokemon or mechanic being genuinely uncompetitive
Might as well ban Tera Water as well, you're telling me any mon can just turn into Suicune? Nah bruh get that out of here shit's broken
TRUE
Also can we ban the move earthquake? It has 100 bp and a lot of mons can learn so kinda broken not gonna ngl
I get that you're joking but I'm completely serious when I say that I personally believe Ice should resist Water.
I feel like the reasons given for the council vote was just not strong enough to warrant skipping a suspect test for a core mechanic like sleep. I get trying to not involve complex bans and the such, but the 2 users (3 with red card amongus ig) abusing the mechanic should be tested with this. Hypnosis was the main thing looked at and you can consider it "uncompetitive" but with some precedent in the past, this should've been a case of a complex ban, suspect test, or just suspecting darkrai.
Also now with the banning of sleep inducing moves, this opens up some interesting stuff, for example, what about paralysis? It's annoying and can screw over multiple mons at the same time with enough luck. I don't think anyone thinks para is "broken" but its the most rng status, shouldn't that be considered "uncompetitive"?
Overall, I don't care much about this ban, but the way the council went about it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
Facts. Para is legit based on rng. Ive seen matches lost for 3 turns of para. Atleast sleep wears off and you can attack when you wake up.
With para you not only lose speed(which speed control is big) uou can still lose a turn completely and outside immunitys (which most teams run maybe 1 ground type and maybe am electric type) you whole team can get para'd
Add any move with flinch and you are almost guranteed to be para'd or flinched.
I remember the king rock strat with Cinccino or Maushold both who can learn twave and have multi hit moves
It's the same issue with Speedbost blaziken.
They could have banned Speed Boost with Blaziken, but nah.
It's nothing new, they refuse to do complex ban for years.
For para, it's not just rng, as the speed drop can be used to deal with boosting threats and make them easier to deal with. Sleep is just hoping they miss, or that you wake up quickly.
@@warcriminalyesthing is, it wouldn't even be a complex ban. Just ban darkrai since he's clearly the main source of this issue (along side val). If kyogre was back would you need to complex ban water sprout or drizzle? Obviously that's an extreme example but it demonstrates my point. Anyways no vote is complete bullshit, I agree with OP their reasonings were not good enough that's why ppl are pissed
@@jonathanhurckes67 But the argument for the ban(if you read up on their decision) is there was too many rng factors with sleep.
Para is literally just rng. That can also be abused with flinch etc. Sleep was also used to counter threats and control. And just like sleep for para you are hoping you get an attack off. So explain to me how what you said is not still rng?
I haven't really played at all this gen, but god damn does Smogon seem to be going crazy with the ban hammer.
But people still find a way to make a villain out of Verlisify. When he's been right for over a decade.
all this tells me is that gen 9 sucks loool
i'll stick to sucking at adv or xy
@@theblackschwab3561two things can be true at once. verlis can be a scumbag loser and smogon can be banhappy
@@theblackschwab3561theres no way you're doing verlis apologia lmao
@theblackschwab3561 how about you make a villain out of this ratio
The only time I hear anything in-depth about the meta this gen, it's either a ban or batshit crazy tiershifts...
Gen 9 has felt like the most adaptable time in Pokemon history with EVs, Ivs, and natures to change stats, abilities, items, and movesets to change playstyles, and tera to change type matchups. All of which is made easier on Showdown by having it all be at the push of a button. Something becomes meta and we learn to adapt and counter it leaving ourselves open to then counter the counter meta. The more we ban things because it's viewed as too strong or don't want to deal with the more problems we create down the line because of the restrictions we have put upon ourselves
Aim gets crit burnt
Next 2 seconds: " i'ma make it shell armor rawst berry"
man, this reminds me of the one time when showdown glitched and removed species clause, ohko clause, and sleep clause. good times
The council is run by clowns
Incorrect. At least clowns are funny.
run by the D&D nerds in the basement of their moms* "Council", what a joke lmao.
It's Finch bro. It was never this bad before he came over from Pokemon Online.
Yeah I absolutely agree with Aim here, this feels like too big of a precident for a unilateral counsil decision. If the tournament was why a quick decision is needed, they couldve just made a decision for the turnament and had a suspect test afterward
I do also feel like a complex bad wouldve fit better. Something like banning sleep moves on Darkrai, or Darkrai itself, but yeah c:
Complex bans are finnicky, but I get the feeling even if voted people would be in favour of a ban considering how dangerous and unpredictable fast sleepers can be. But maybe I’ve got black tinted glasses from Gen 5
Them making bans all the times just for their tournaments instead of thinking about the ladder is kinda depressing
i feel like a lot of people hated darkrai rather than sleep. also i think people hate paralyze more than sleep.
The Spectre of Darkness is cackling,, mwhahauahaaha.
Para is infinitely more tilting
Para spam is the most noob strategy, especially since the only real way to beat it is to run lame shit
@@Scottgriffinftw No it's not get your facts straight lol, I have video proof - and you just have your whining opinion on here lol.
You can break out of para literally over half the time, but you 90% sleep for at least 1 turn. If you can't handle this Format, leave - why do you think your crying changes anything??
@@netweed09your bait needs some work lmao you gotta make it a little better sounding
POV: The dumbest counsel ban, sleep is an integral game mechanic shoulda been suspect tested
Idk why the first step in response to every problematic thing in this gen is just "ban it"
Because unlike vgc players, singles players don't want to innovate and work around starts instead just ban everything
@@litaf4889 bro, VGC doesn't ban things because it's the Pokemon company itself running it. People like Wolfey have gone on record to say stuff like the game would be better without urshifu, and saying that meta developments don't happen in singles is crazy man
@@Justanerd-qj2hd no one cares what one single person says. Not every team runs urshifu, there's many ways to beat it especially with tera. Stop being lazy and think of actual counters instead of bans
@@litaf4889 boy doesn't even know wolfey is a famous (probably *the most* famous) vgc player 😂😂😂😂
@@Justanerd-qj2hd ik who wolfey is, he's or just salty he lost to it. People would ban any pokemon they hate going against if it meant they could win more regionals and worlds
If the issue is sleep as a status by specific mons who are abusing it, the simplest solution would be to keep Sleep Clause and to ban Sleep Moves that have only/mostly accuracy related drawbacks.
Sleep Powder and Spore didn't deserve a ban because there's counterplay against them called Grass Types and Safety Goggles. Yawn also didn't deserve a ban because that's a calculated risk taken by both players that creates an interesting game of Chicken. Hypnosis, Sing, and Dark Void, on the other hand, have means to be abused, mostly Hypnosis and Dark Void, because of their distribution being to more than either mostly a specific type or (in the case of the argument against yawn) are more immediate in their threat potential.
not upset about the council voting to remove sleep moves but about the way they did it.
My biggest gripe was that it was transitive and that Finch basically said “I don’t care about how this affects the lower tiers since that’s not my problem”
It’s technically true, but at the same time the fundamental issues with sleep were only relevant in OU, it doesn’t make any sense to also ban it in lower tiers (though that’s more down to transitive bans as a whole instead of the sleep ban itself. Still, this ban definitely should’ve been handled with more nuance)
you probably rage in random battles lmao
@@jeanpierrefortin8279 This doesn't effect random battles.
Finch and the Council be power tripping HARD.
19:43 the bargaining phase of acceptance hits and you talk yourself down from everyone asleep to “at least one person with two Pokémon asleep”
the sleep ban is the stupidest thing that has happened in gen 9 OU. and that's saying A LOT
agreed. Just ban darkrai and be done with it. Everything else, including a-ninetales, you can play around thanks to sleep clause. Sleep was never a problem from what ive seen, its just the darkrai unban and the unpredictability when facing it that was bad. Why does every tier have to suffer from that now
lol just realized it doesnt effect just ou but all tiers, what the fuck is the council thinking?
@@xTetsu its funny cuz personally i dont even think darkrai is that good (def ou but not overpowering in the slightest), and for the council to ban a whole mechanic just because of new toy syndrome is hilarious. scarf tusk literally obliterates darkrai among many other counters. why is the council so bad at playing the game lmao
@@CarseattWhats dumb is banning Darkrai would have given the same effect. Sure its stats or ok but it legit has a useless ability with no secondary options since its whole kit is for sleep...hence its signature move that was already nerfed
What else was stupid this gen? Really besides this weird ban, the only one that was strange was the Volc ban. All of the other bans were following community feedback
There are so many ways to combat sleep, I wish the council would give players a chance to innovate instead of knee-jerk banning anything that gets slightly annoying to deal with
Honestly the most annoying part was sleep was a bit annoying on some mons but not that huge of an issue until Darkrai dropped due to the council’s choice…then when it turned out the Mon with nasty plot, a solid move pool, great speed and great sp was annoying to deal with since it could win the coin flip to beat its checks.
Instead of going “hmm maybe Darkrai should be tested” they ran as fast as possible to ban sleep
@@rossthemoss6827Funny because people have been saying for years that Darkrai should be OU and we all know now what happened. Maybe people should stop looking at just the stats to determine if an old pokemon is balanced enough for the current meta because of recent power creep from new pokemon.
Even Joey fell for this, thinking its stats now meant it was balanced for OU when it clearly isn't because a pokemon is more than just base stats.
@@okagron reminds me of an argument i heard for tera ban which rubs me of the wrong side because they litterly couldnot pickt a worse argument they said dragonite auto loses to chien pao without tera which dosnt count for items or anything else and only counts standard set that was the intelligence i have sene from some people in the community so wth
UUbers garbage bin: Kyu, Darkrai, Gambit, etc. Bring back sleep and use the goddamn new tier for it was created for.
Sleep ban is RIDICULOUS im movin from ou to vgc
VCG is for the most part better than smogon anyway so good call.
@@Yangblaze11theres sleep clause i think on smogon vgc
@@slytactician9297 is there a smogon vgc?? Don't u mean smogon doubles? Thats different than vgc... Thats its own meta.
@@starsimvidz I couldnt remember if smogon actually followed the vgc rules or if they had vgc but with smogons rules.
@@starsimvidz but you are right its prob doubles its been awhile since ive played smogon cause i dnt agree with alot of the bans
Sleep ban has no integrity to it, simply put. Nobody complained about it until darkrai and iron val abused hypnosis on risky sets.
Sleep as a status is so much manageable this gen too compared to the nonsense rules it had in gen 5. OU council just likes to look busy.
"risky sets" aka awful players deliberately using hypnosis in situations that would be awful for them otherwise and getting punished when they can't rely on RNG, ah ok 😂
@pesky2119 rng is part of the game you might as well ask to ban every strong move that has drawback because it landed everytime opponent used on you.
🤓
F chain for breloom and amogus:
F
@@IRoIN100F
F
F
F
It should have been a community vote, there are viable ways to counter sleep
I will say, Amoongus can suffer for all I care, but that’s just a function of me not liking this mon and not sleep in general
There WAS a community vote.
I have personally voted for the ban for example.
They acted on it because the community vote overwhelmingly asked for an action to be taken: around 1000 votes, people had to choose 1 to 5, 1 being "no action needed", 5 being "ban needed". Results: 3.7/5.
@@Asura-vj3wn the "council" has gotten out of hand this gen.
@@Divixell 3.7 From the qualified playerbase 3.3 from the general. Even the score from the general playerbase is rather high, but I suspect the difference between those two score is a good illustration of what we have seen over the past few days: more experienced and involved players generally have a more positive view of the ban, while people who don't know what they're talking about, didn't participate in discussion, in the survey, or in high level tournaments or suspects, keep commentating on social media complaining about it
So true, maybe we should unban miraidon since he is anti-sleep 😊
I personally think the sleep ban was super lame. Imo lamest ban ever added. I really think they should've just suspected darkrai lol. Was there even a vote for sleep ban??? That's such a huge change to make if they didn't take a vote. I swear I didn't see a vote+suspect come up (maybe it did and I'm dumb). Normally even if I don't agree with the ban, I don't super mind them. But this is such a huge change to make outta nowhere that I really dislike it
It wasn't a vote, that is my biggest issue with it. That, and the fact that only 2 mons are terrorizing the meta with it by their metrics.
@@DarkDodgers I hate the OU counsel's whataboutism straw mans. "sleep powder liligant is on rise" yeah stfu who has even seen one of those in OU for months?
@@CashmoneezThey might have meant the faster Hisuian Lillgant not the slower Version. But i get your point.
This is why ou on smogon is stale. Its another reason I watch Pokeaim and CTC cause they play other (more diverse) and fun tiers. They also arent afraid to try mons outside the meta for fun
@@slytactician9297 Definitely but no one is really using H-Lilgant either especially not in high ladder. The point is like .2% of people have ever got mad they got slept by h-liligant yet they use it as an additional justification for the ban.
And the worst part is the ban is implemented the same way as pokemon bans, i.e. sleep moves are now OUBL content, so you can only use the in (U)Ubers and AG or in OMs... Want to use Spore Paras in PU? Too bad, it's Ubers now.
Water, fairy, dragon type
Is next to be ban since ban is good
( Sarcasm)
Regarding the 3.7/5 on the community: this is actually a bit misleading. Only the qualified people (people participating in SPL, or previous throphy tours like SCL) had a 3.7 on average. All the other people that voted had a 3.3/5 on average, which is even lower than the already questionable 3.7.
Like Joey said, previous surveys saw results with higher averages scores (iirc gholdengo with around 4) while not even a suspect came from that.
I have nothing against that sleep ban, but god the council handled so many things so poorly and arbitrary in this decision.
The ban is quite stupid, their is clear counter for sleep that off meta because people are so set on certain items and mons.
I've thought for the longest time that these bans for Gen 9 in Smogon were really stupid, but this is just the cherry on top. Don't get me wrong, some bans were definitely needed and were promptly suspect tested but this? Absolute joke. So glad I've stopped participating in Smogon rules and just watch the content.
yeah same, ou council bans have completely killed my enjoyment for showdown since the volcarona ban. was very happy they brought back volc for dlc2 but now there's this lol. just leave the game as is and let me play pokemon >:(
@@CarseattYou can play ubers, or AG if You don't like the rules...
@@CarseattThats why ive been getting into wifi battles again. Being able to not have the pointless restrictions is fun.
I think most of the bans have been fully agreeable, volc felt odd but it was a victim of tera (and yet kingambit still hasnt been retested) but this one was really really badly done. The fact that they unbanned Darkrai then deem sleep too strong through a quickban and they just say "We're the experts, a suspect test would be wrong, trust us" instead of it being the pokemon that broke the mechanic feels directly against their typical methodology on top of a big mechanical change being relegated to a quick ban taking zero community feedback. The worst of it is that because it reflects on every tier below it, regardless of tier, Shinotic, Breloom, Amoongus, etc just lost the biggest reason for their existence.
and the great enabler was never banned cuz it's their gholden child for some reason
To me Smogon has always seemed like an oligarchic republic or at best a technocratic oligarchy
I don't even feel like "Republic" is deserved, I don't know how these members are selected or appointed, there's no term, and the structure is amorphous. The UU tier leader lead the vote in the OU council. Different tiers have differing numbers of councilmen. Some tiers at some point in time have a "Co-Tier Leader."
There are surveys, but the polls don't matter, especially for those who are not an aristocrat in the top 250 on the ladder. The council arbitrarily decides what can and cannot be suspected, and when there is a suspect. They can also ban whatever, whenever they want. The suspect tests themselves are technocratic; only those who can achieve 80% GXE >30 games can Yea or Nay.
The OU tier leader wields the most power, he can call for votes by the council on what he wants, when he wants. If he doesn't like how they vote, he can publicly chastise them and force them to vote again until he gets the desired outcome, as we saw with the Volcarona situation recently.
Personally, it just seems to be a chaotic oligarchy.
@@pokelee it was fucking hilarious when in the past you needed 66% for a council vote ban but when Zamazenta un-crowned got 60%, Finchinator was like actually going forward now it's 60% and up for a council ban. He's upset people didn't think it was broken and lowered the ban threshold and then that pokemon still passed a suspect test and stayed in the tier because obviously it's not broken and people like it.
"That mon touched me so many times!"
-pokeaimMD
Animation request: Joey's soul floating away from himself wearing a Vileplume costume, after having been kicked six times by a Tsareena, which is now fainted as well.
The sleep ban is so fucking stupid. Why was this a council vote it just feels completely controlling.
Because ANYTHING that threatens the precious tanky/slow style of gameplay they prefer is dealt with. It's so blatant this gen
@@devonchafe2764 are you intentionally stupid?
@@devonchafe2764ou players when they can’t press a button and destroy everything in their path
@@blockayethe2nd220 not even close, I wanna play Pokemon, not musical chairs lmao. The removal of pursuit+having heavy duty boots means switching is a lot less punishable. So you can stack up tanks that can switch into most sets and just rinse repeat. I find the play style incredibly boring
@@devonchafe2764 the vast majority of this meta has been hyper offensive yet you guys still complain about bulky team boogeyman.
Oh God, this is going to be a hellhole for your enemies. XD
I think banning only hypnosis should do the work.
The uncompetitive thing about sleep is the fact that you can gamble your best pokemon in the team on landing hypnosis and getting enough sleep turn, and could get a huge reward for that.
Other sleep inducing move are less luck-based or more manageable as the pokemon that use those move (not hypnosis) are not that strong.
1. Could only put 1 mon to sleep at a time
2. Sleep was already nerfed to 3 turns max
Still banned it. That too mostly because of Hypnosis on Darkrai and Iron Valiant, a 60% accurate move. If someone can't play around that, its a skill issue.
To be clear, the low accurracy is actually more problematic than if it was spore.
Previously you could switch in a Pokemon that cared less about sleep as reliable counterplay. Widespread use of innaccurrate sleep moved instead means you can switch out and then they miss and can still sleep later.
Sleep got banned but thunder wave didn't. What world do we live in
ban happy but let's keep iron valiant, gholdengo, cause why deal with actual problems
"Nah, f them. Nobody going to sleep with the cops around"
🔥🔥🔥
I love seeing Meloetta Pirouette putting in work, such a fun mon
It’s also really fast which makes sense compared to the op shield dog
Banning Sleep before putting an Item Clause is still an a$$ backwards decision
This is just dumb, why didn't they just suspect Darkrai?
this just makes Amoongus and Breelom useless lol
It was specifically banned because Darkrai and Iron Valiant, and instead of suspecting them they banned sleep. The council must have woken up drunk or something, because wtf.
@@alanm966Thats the thing that stupid. It the past you just banned the mon. They instead said lets make some mons useless all because ppl were mad their easy win conditions were getting countered.
Breloom and amoongus being kicked onto the streets after this god tier change 🔥🔥🔥
Breloom probably, Amoonguss potentially not. Like it's definitely worse now, I won't deny that, but I can still see Amoon doing Red Card stuff like it used to
@@zachuvgc8660there’s legit no utility now that I can think of besides clear smog and toxic and regenerator but then what? It’s gonna drop for sure imo
@@zachuvgc8660people are coping that it's still C rank, but it's definitely unranked in terms of viability in OU and would probably like to drop back to UU now that you don't have to worry that it might sleep your counters.
non of this would happen if we had easier Heal Bell access
Game Freak pretty much killing cleric moves has been a disaster for competitive
I don't believe sleep should have been banned, but either sleep or Darkrai had to go, and the community would do anything to keep their precious Darkrai in OU. Should have just banned Darkrai instead of banning a whole status condition.
When I heard Darkrai was being allowed in OU I thought did they really not learn from past mistakes with sleep abuse sets then? This was literally bound to happen. Darkrai is through and through a sleep abuser rng or not. Its never going to be healthy and should have taken the ban out of OU. Also Iron Val but that mon isn't healthy either.
Darkrai wasn't the only abuser
If you want to ban darkrai because of hypnosis you also have to ban Val which is a fine mon on itself. Banning two *not busted* mons to fix the hypnosis abusing is just not a smart choice
This video proves why freeze clause was never necessary.
when that meloetta hit relic song the second time, I fell asleep 😂
the sleep ban is riduculous, espesially when other pokemon deserve to get banned, more specifically, gholdengo
kingambit and roaring moon too probably
In the survey they recently did, Gholdengo got a 2.9/5 from qualitfied players and a 3.1/5 from general players as far as brokenness. Both Kyurem and Roaring Moon had more support than it to be suspected. Honestly, I think they are going to run a sleep suspect soon, as this backlash is way more than anything else that has happened this gen.
Idk why they banned sleep when gholdengo is still in ou it can’t be THAT bad if gholdengo can just hard counter
@@Magmatical The problem was Ghold wasn't hard countering it. Anyone who used Sleep and was a threat in OU could just obliterate him.
Ghold is strong and I used to think he needed to go, but I don't think he's ban worthy anymore. Especially after this fiasco.
@@DarkDodgers valiant amoongus ninetales etc were not touching gholdengo it’s only darkrai
Sleep clause was fine, what a joke.
Noone wants to have their whole team fucking put to sleep the clause didnt do shit
i agree, the council just keeps calling votes for random shit they get angry at in game lol, way too many things being banned this gen. what a joke indeed
@@DarrellKareem-sz4cl but that's what sleep clause prevents? im confused what you mean
@@DarrellKareem-sz4cl Uhm what? Sleep clause was only having ONE pokemon put to sleep. So what's the problem with that? Should we remove kicking from football? How about removing walks from baseball?
@@DarrellKareem-sz4cl...sleep clause only allowed one mon sleep
Sleep didn't have to die for the sins of 2 mons Joey. It just aint right I'm tellin ya. All because they could beat GHOLD!? It's crazy dawg.
@@itztaytay2 The 2 major culprits for why Sleep got banned are special (Literally just Darkrai and Iron Valiant. Special attackers.) Both of them KILL Ghold. So normally, you would swap in Ghold to avoid sleep like ya said and Ghold would help save you from getting annoyingly status'd while being the Chad he is. But those goobers straight up murk him. Meaning, you HAVE to deal with them! They're gonna boost up after they kill your Ghold (Nasty Plot, Calm Mind), and you're gonna be oofed. You can keep swapping, they'll keep hitting buttons.
You COULD Tera, but man, that's such a bad answer as now I still need to deal with the other 5 members of this dude's team and my Steel/Ghost type monstrosity holding this defensive core together is now a freaking fighting type or something.
@@DarkDodgers I might be dumb, but how does Val beat Gholdengo without Tera? Even CM Shadow ball needs turns to set up during which Ghold can nasty plot and make it rain, no?
man how is smogon's tiering system so good and everything else so bad
Because the council are playing the ladders and getting salty ;p
Jk, it's pretty much just because of how it's still centralised enough that it suffers the same problems as the older council based formats, just more gradually.
Grass Whistle Gamers Rise
Smogon bans actual problem like Tera & GholdGambit challenge: impossible.
That doctor nu guy with the stall is now 0-2 against melo-plume teams, but in both instances it was more because of chandy than anything else.
"Table. He's here..." horror story in the making
1 hour after this video Meloetta was everywhere why must you do this
Ok now they’re gonna spam paralysis
Thank God Joey, Hypnosis is the Problem! Such a hasty decision... 😵💫
On one hand, Sleep was definitely problematic in the OU landscape and definitely needed to be addressed
On the other, it was addressed horribly and really Valiant and Darkrai should have been suspect tested before anything drastic was done.
That being said, I feel like half the people complaining about sleep bans either don’t play Gen 9 OU at all, or can’t break 1100 ELO. Seriously, some of these people are saying “just play around Hypnosis lol”. How? As it stands OU is way too volatile and games can often be decided by single turns, and unlike Spore, Hypnosis really doesn’t have any reliable counters (thanks for not bringing back the Tapus or giving Heal Bell to more Pokemon, Game Freak). And there’s no way anything with Insomnia or Pincurchin will survive longer than Darkrai or Iron Vailant.
Darkrai and Val themselves are perfectly fine it was just the hypnosis method
In my defense they should of banned hypnosis AND dark void but I guess two bans over just banning sleep is a little too much
While I think that the sleep ban was short-sighted and that they should've tested Darkrai/Valiant instead, I have noticed that cleric support this gen is very lacking. Heal Bell is exclusive to the Blissey and Chimecho lines. Aromatherapy and Refresh are *gone.*
The only other status prevention moves we have right now (that I can think of) are Safeguard, Healing Wish, Lunar Dance, Lunar Blessing, and Jungle Healing, two of which make you faint, and three of which are signature moves. (Read: the only "real" status prevention move we have right now is *Safeguard* )
While I don't think sleep itself is any more broken than it was before, I think it's become a lot harder to shake off and deal with this generation, which I could see as a legitimate argument for its ban, and I'm surprised I haven't seen it brought up more.
That being said, I feel like on most mons, sleep is either a risky strategy that just bolsters your existing capabilities, or on slower bulkier mons, is less risky and gives you a free turn for strategies you otherwise wouldn't have, but can still be played around.
If a mon's entire success or failure hinges on landing a single 60%, I feel like that says more about that mon's volatility and what teir it should be in than it does about the brokenness of the move.
Ultimately, as Joey and many others have expressed, I think it should've been held up to a community vote/suspect, and I hope they'll consider revisiting this.
I was hoping for this to be some OU heat but I guess that's too hard xd
kinda hard to sleep in OU with gholden + pult everywhere
OU ft. Rabia is a precious thing; we can't have it too often or we'll get spoiled!
wait i thought the sleep ban was just for OU? Trickling it down to other tiers seems off.
@@itztaytay2which is also why bans should be limited to Pokemon or if needed abilities. Because I really doubt Hypno and Parasect were menaces with access to hypnosis and spore (if gen 9 Hypno is still anything like it is in gen 1, it probably benefits from not having hypnosis tbh...)
How does the ou council get appointed? I call for a coupe.
I love that meloetta can do anything without being hacked now
I do wonder if the rising popularity of older gens (shout out to big yellow and their gen 1 analysis content) played a factor into all this nonsense; maybe the chill people left for gen 1 and all its glorious jank or some other older gens
I feel like most people have gone to ADV OU (myself included), thanks in part to one Jimothy Below-Average Temperature
I’m pretty sure it’s even more active than gen 8 and 7 OU ladder at this point
@yosh9192 honestly i can't imagine gen 8 OU being active at all once SV dropped
I think sleep ban was lame. I feel like the issue was there was 3 big abusers and 2 of the 3 used hypnosis. If they banned Hypnosis then the main issue would have been gone.
Dont forget dire claw smeargle and metronome 😼😼😼
Personally, I like the ban for OU, but I feel like each tier should be able to vote individually on a change as big as this. Sleep isn't automatically problematic in UU if it's problematic in OU (or RU and NU, for that matter), and it all depends on what Pokemon are able to use sleep effectively.
Using Rabia's video about the effects on NU as an example, Brute Bonnet and Venomoth were not meta-defining monsters in their respective tier. They had sleep moves to use as good options, but comparing Quiver Dance Venomoth to Booster Energy Iron Valiant or Nasty Plot Darkrai is like comparing a red crayon to a chili pepper.
I get that they wanted to use this as an opportunity to address Sleep Clause once and for all, but I still think that lower tiers should've had more say in the matter, since they still have fully developed metagames and ban policies all of their own, and that should've been considered more for a change like this.
WHEN IN DOUBT, PUT 'EM OUT!
giga drain, leech seed, and strength sap is criminal behavior
I do not agree with removing sleep at all and i believe hypnosis should have been banned on the problematic mons instead.
If they could ban Last Respects and Shed Tail on Houndstone and Cyclizar why not do the same for Darkrai?
What you are asking makes too much sense. They clearly lack that. Especially since Darkrais ability is legit meant for sleep so either way it would be a useless mon...also most choice scarf sets dont even run sleep and darkrai still counters and is a problem without sleep for most of ou
> If they could ban Last Respects and She'd Tail on Houndstone and Cyclizar
That never happened.
Initially, the users of the moves were banned.
Then when more users came out/proved to be still problematic then the moves themselves were banned.
For sleep, the moves themselves have been banned which is consistent with policy.
But no ban has ever been put in place in gen 9 of the nature of "banning [mechanic/move] on a specific mon". Bans have always been specific in nature.
There are other matters and better solutions imo but this ain't it chief.
Iron Valiant
@@slytactician9297 Allowing Darkrai in OU at all was a mistake then. They lied to themselves about it not being such a big menace anymore and believed it for so long that they would rather screw many other Pokemon's viability before banning Darkrai.
@@nicolasromani3523lol that is most likely the case
playing a verlisify video for the opponent also couldve put them to sleep
I think this is ridiculous. If Sleep is becoming a problem, players should learn to counter it instead of just banning it.
Ah yes, counter Hypnosis with… *checks notes* Pincurchin or Insomnia Delibird/Banette/Spidops, that’s definitely gonna work
@@yosh9192 Insomnia Ariados is a guaranteed OHKO with uninvested Adamant Megahorn. As a common webs-setter, it is likely to run focus sash, so Darkrai CANNOT EVER stay in on it. Doest do shit to valiant, though.
I can't think of a time the Smogon council was any farther out of line. What the fuck? Yawn is one of the most strategically interesting and diverse moves in the history of the franchise. The other moves are highly restricted or absolute trash. What the fuck is wrong with you people????
i see meloetta usage i click
The only meta game other than gen 5 that I respect the sleep ban in is balanced hackmons and similar metagames. I think complex bans are interesting and would make the game a lot more fun. One of the things people find fun in pokemon is finding a niche role or way to use a pokemon they like which might not be normally viable. Sleep moves like yawn allowed for things people might not expect, like keeping a set up move in to fall asleep knowing it will lead you to killing one more mon cause your opponent expects you to switch.
To me this is the most cowardly ban yet. It’s not like there isn’t counter-play in the game for sleep. Especially when only one Mon could ever be asleep at once.
Counterplay: Get Lucky
There is no counterplay (for hypnosis at least). You need to sac a mon to sleep and it’s complete luck if the mon gets slept, and complete luck for when it wakes up. It’s uncompetitive in the same vein as evasion
🤓
@@jasons1217 magic bounce, abilities that prevent sleep, sleep talk, abilities that cure status etc. Countering sleep is absolutely possible, might be a bit clunky, but don't pretend that counters don't exist.
@@kinggler9506people dont wanna put lum berries or chesto berries on their darkrai and iron valiant counters either
Also electric terrain and misty terrain prevent sleep, speed dexoys taunts them, safeguard still exists
If you behind a sub you cant be put to sleep either
You could've made a "the video ends when I put a Pokémon to sleep" and still got to almost 20 minutes
Insomniac Joe not getting sleep in the vid for so long is all too fitting
all they had to do was ban hypnosis. you might say "but hypnosis is less reliable" yes thats the point. both of you are throwing the game to the rng on that turn. if the opp uses the move with their sash lead val/darkrai, if the mon in is not your sleep sack, you have to switch it in. meaning they get 3 chances to put you to sleep. not only this, but if the hypnosis misses and your sleep sack is weak to the sleeper, now the opponent has gotten a super advantage for no penalty.
compare this to yawn. yawn is a guaranteed sleep. you can decide to switch out if need be, but it provides reliable and consistent pressure either way. spore at worst screws you with red card. and there are several mons immune to spore too in various ways (not that youd want to switch most of them in but thats beside the point)
I was just talking about this on your last video!!
Just wanted to say before the ban I wanted to prove a point to my homie that sleep was broken so I ran lead darkrai and endgame iron Val both with hypno. It’s the highest I’ve peaked in OU this gen at 1700s
I *really* don't think I'm the only person that thinks the council is having a *very* *severe* skill issue moment by doing this (and also kyurem)
This Gen is ridiculous with all these bans.. Lets just ban Entry Hazards next. Fuck it.
Let's just ban anything with an attack stat over 100 and every attack boosting move, fuck it let's make 200 turn matches the norm cause that's clearly what they want lmao
Most the mechanics are nerfed anyway, weve had sleep last 1-3 turns since what gen 4/5? And its never been a massive issue with sleep clause.
But how about this, if secret power isnt banned and still available to use (i play AG mostly because i like using some older sets)
Could you not use serene grace sawsbuck and have terrain extender rillaboom or jumpluff then literally spam secret power with a 60% sleep chance haha.
I’m pretty sure sleep was a big issue in gen 5 since the sleep counter reset upon switching
Banning sleep is truly the worst decision yet. I said it at the beginning of this generation, and I'll say it again.... the council's completely out of control, people within the council need to be removed. The community needs to start fighting back against some of these terrible decisions.
Better yet, Seeing as Showdown is Open Source, we should just replace Smogon and compete with it. Kinda like how fan games keep trying to do with Nintendo/GF (only without the risk of getting ban hammered).
There’s literally an Elite 4 from gen 5 about falling asleep and dude goes nah this random girl instead for the avatar.
Disrespect
Instead if just banning Darkrai and perhaps even Iron Valiant the combined five IQ points of "the council" decided to just ban sleep all together. Bang up job fellas.
Tsareena teraing off grass and clicking triple axel into effect spore sleep was the showdown play of all time
ironically this was the first thing i thought of as well XD
I definitely hate the sleep ban. It is too central of a mechanic to be removed.
Look, We get it; just move off to a server / community that allows Mewtwo to be Legal in OU and be done with the moaning, Ok?
@@netweed09 I'm fine with mewtwo being banned, because it's just too strong, but sleep just doesn't seem too broken with sleep clause.
@@desktop-ini Smh.
@@netweed09 Serious "Just make your own bank!" vibes. I bet I can count the folds in your brain on one hand.
@@CaptainDCap Ahh, the weirdo anime Breloom is _very_ enraged at the proceedings I see.
😂🤡