I agreed with a majority of your review, its very well done. I'd have to say, to label a game as either; pay 2 win or not pay 2 win, is truly a poor analysis by that person but instead should be on a scale. Pay 2 win is defined differently; one of the biggest controversial topic is; exp boosters, pay to win or pay for convenience? This game definitely has pay for convenience, but that to me is not alone enough to make a game "pay to win." But rather, when the game puts a wall between the non-paying player and paying player, that a non-paying player can NEVER get past. Are those elements present in ToS? Nope. So personally, ToS is not "pay to win," are there benefits you can get from paying over the non-paying? Yes, but are these impossible to get by the non-paying player? Nope, almost nothing in this game is purely restricted by paying because a majority of them can be obtained through the market board with in game currency which is money everyone has. On a scale of pay to win from 1 being non-existent (Path of Exile) to all about paying to win a 10. ToS only stands only at 2-3. Disagree? I'm more than willing to educate.
+Olbohn "pay 2 win" is not a thing anyway. It's an entirely subjective thing people use to describe what they can and can't accept PERSONALLY in f2p games. But somehow you think a 1-10 scale would make it any less arbitrary? Come on man...
+CloakingDonkey But pay-2-win is a thing... the problem lies in it being open to any type of interpretation. It's like rating a game for how "good" it is, yes the word good can be entirely subjective, but giving it a score is a place to start and look at how often video games are reviewed and given scores these days? That's sort of the point you know.... To be above that, and give the most objective opinion possible? I can understand common gamers having their own opinions but... you should be above that and recognize what is and isn't pay-2-win by now. Are you really suggesting permanent stats is a subjective thing? Pretty sure, every single player would say that screams pay-2-win... come on now.. I expected more. There are areas or grey and areas of black/white... you should really know that for someone who spends so much time giving reviews...Might want to spend some time educating yourself a bit more before you make a video on these various topics.
+jarmsfirstclaw yeah i know. It's the curse of MMORPG guides. Sooner or later they are obsolete or missing information no matter how diligent you are ;)
+MeetMeViceVersa remember that the game is still early access only... which means most of the people playing currently already have tokens. The prices will go up.
for a month old video, alot of information you provide is off the mark... or you made this video half a year ago or you didnt research your stuff properly..
jarmsfirstclaw oooooh the team thing. I thought you meant an RMT upgrade for the guild tower. Alright... yes those team rooms are still available. I did forget to bring them up. whoops.
can you vend in the game without having crafting classes like alchemists, like sell rare wepons and armor? and is there an auction house? I'm really exited about the game too but f2p got moved :(
I've played this game for months now, enjoying my high level characters, without having ever spent a penny. So it's basically a "pay to play more comfortably" type of game. There's no "win" at this point anyway...
A bit outdated already. They are lifting the limitations on trading and team storage and will keep removing limitations little by little in future. Actually I like this model. This way they can earn money and players are satisfied, some have to pay for it in advance, some have to wait a bit. Here are the patch notes: forum.treeofsavior.com/t/server-transfer-maintenance-and-patch-notes-april-26th-2016/215880
+Daniel Korolev I know about the patch changes which is why I didn't talk about the stuff that gets removed. The trade limit sadly still stays for now, you only don't lose anymore charges for team trading. The footage still shows them but that's not really something I can change without having access to the patched game ;) I'm sure they will have more changes in the future but that's part of the business of making MMO guides. At some point they will be obsolete no matter how long you wait.
CloakingDonkey It's not the only change. Mortal non-token players can now trade items, they will become untradable after. At least that's what the patch notes say. Haven't tested yet. And you are right about the guides surely. Thank you for the video by the way.
+Daniel Korolev "This way they can earn money and players are satisfied" there are other games that earn money and have satisfied players without Gimping free to play players.
Well, is not that bad. Is a montly fee and be happy. The enchant and trade is kinda dumb... but w/e. If the Brasil server is cheap 5~10 dolars a month (I m from Argentina)... I m gonna pick it up.
The token helps a lot, but extra exp rates have been used in multiple games just so you can hit the level cap faster. The market is pretty useless stop taxing shit, a lot of people trade more valuable items. Being able to learn attributes helps a lot, but doesn't mean much it will only help with leveling you, don't need max attributes till end game, this is going to take a while no matter what. Token is only worth 400k now and will probably consistently go down because 2 weeks ago it was 800k plus. Enchants are kind of useless unless you get a good level 3 enchant. I think if the tp shop sold the arde dagger or something better and had multiple items you could just buy it would be pay2win. If your not a silver buyer you actually have to grind for items. It doesn't really matter though the majority of people will give up on this game when they reach level 165-175. I only have a few friends that log on now that I met in game rather than real life.
siv yig it's nowhere near as harsh as patron. You can definitely play the game just fine without it, which imo you could not in AA. I don't know how the prices will be once the game opens to f2p though, it's something we'll have to wait and see.
siv yig oh gods don't remind me of RO2... I just threw up in my mouth a little :x And yeah just give it a go. I ended up really liking it for what it is and I'm usually more of a PvP guy ;)
Its so annoying when people have personal definitions for what "Pay to Win" means. There is only one fucking definition and you don't get to rewrite it. If the game lets you purchase an advantage that a non paying player cannot get as easily as you can with money... YOU ARE PAYING TO WIN. I don't care if you are OK with it, I don't care if love the game, etc etc.
***** Oh well let's see, who was it that stumbled into my comment section like a belligerent chav, telling me off for speaking my mind in my own gods damned video? You don't get to claim the moral high ground or play the offended victim after that you absolute muppet. Now go throw all your toys out the pram somewhere else.
The early levels are the worst. Questing is usually the fastest way of leveling but there are some lvl brackets that have amazing grind spots, such as Tenet Garden at 30-50, Royal Mausoleum at 70-80, Demon Prison, etc. You will also want to eek out 10-20 levels out of the dungeons. First one being the Cathedral in east Tenet Garden at lvl 50. Good luck =)
Glauyangar Untryr Quests > Dungeons > Grind. Unless you have a group at which point grinding becomes better. As a Swordsman you will have issues grinding without a Cleric to heal you because your health takes forever to regenerate.
Yeah, pretty much P2W. Personal opinion versus facts: Getting out gameplay mechanics, not having to play the game as much because you dropped cash are examples of you PAYING real cash TO WIN at the game. A ton of other developers and publishers doing the same thing doesn't suddenly make this practice not paying to win at the game you're playing, even if you like it. Someone else paying for it doesn't make it not P2W. Skipping ahead means you skip out times when you could've died. Better to embrace it being Pay to Win like in the same way you tell people that game has them grinding a lot at the later levels. Dancing around the issue does the players a disservice, the developer didn't have to go this route and they can definitely change. Accepting it is only going to make them bolder in their future P2W shenanigans. Especially if the user numbers drop off.
+NightOdin token price its too high and... Non-Token users are also able to trade. 1:1 trading between two Token users remains the same. However, if even one player does not have a Token activated, the traded item will become [Untradable] after the trade. like wow, most of the thing's now are Pay to skip instead of P2W
Holly shit man $12.38 for ToS? Are they insane? Wow is 12.99. Now I am sorry to compare it to wow, but Blizzard sort of set the bar for both quality, and price. And if we run past the fact that ToS is NOT even close to Wow vanilla, then we still get stuck on, well is it better than WoW OLD for a brand new player? Probably not. Wow was dumbed down by a lot, and I blame Activision for it, but that turns off elites and vets not newbs. I am tired of these f2p game publishers thinking their product is worth as much as WoW. Its arrogant. And I am done pretending it isn't.With 6.8 million subscribers Blizzard still has a ton of servers to support and hold a huge UX and CS staff employed, not to mention account hacking prevention and recovery systems they have put in. Point is Blizzard have dumped tons into wow to keep the quality up, failure does not negate the investment. (they failed to keep the game fun)If MMOs dont want to be compared to WoW, they should try to be modest in their sub costs, otherwise I am comparing apples to apples
+Dimitre H Value is a pretty subjective thing though. The 15€ for WoW I would never pay again... not even if it was the last game on earth. ToS I like a lot and I'm getting dozens of hours of entertainment out of it, making the investment worth it for me. Your mileage may of course vary ;)
+CloakingDonkey The point he made unfortunately isnt as subjective mate. It is quite the opposite. He basically said: Game A had Money Y spent on it and therefore has to get payed amount Z to stay in black numbers (schwarze Zahlen, du weißt was ich meine). If Y is significantly smaller in case of game B, why would Z stay the same? I may be wrong....dunno. But that seems to be a valid question to ask.
Yes. That is closer to what I was saying. Production costs don't match the price. The difference between a Rolex and a Casio, yeah the Casio is digital and has more options like a chronograph, but the Rolex has higher overhead cost of materials and labor. Or between a VW Beetle vs a BMW 530i
Dimitre H So you think WoW, the game that has 10 month - 1 year long content gaps on a pretty regular basis costs 15$ a month because it's worth that much? Please. Worth does not play into it with video games. That's simply how it is. Do you really think both Civilization V and The Order 1886 should cost 60$ or have to cost 60$ or are worth 60$? Of course not. There is such a thing as an industry standard and nowhere is this more obvious than with video games. With video games you have to decide for yourself if something is worth however much it costs. WoW could cost 2€ a month and I wouldn't play that shit... 12€ a month for ToS is worth it to me. Both more or less follow inustry standard in their pricing however. Worth and Value are subjective criteria and they are the criteria that SHOULD matter to everyone.
Trading is free now but only after your character is so old/after a certain date.
Hello, i think the enchant scrolls have a low drop chance from boss cubes
true, got one recently
Please more tree of savior guides I love your vids !
+EquinoX ReZ They're coming ;) Next one should hopefully be uploaded by tomorrow evening. o/
For everyone complaining about lag, since the game has launched, I have not lagged at all,
I agreed with a majority of your review, its very well done. I'd have to say, to label a game as either; pay 2 win or not pay 2 win, is truly a poor analysis by that person but instead should be on a scale. Pay 2 win is defined differently; one of the biggest controversial topic is; exp boosters, pay to win or pay for convenience?
This game definitely has pay for convenience, but that to me is not alone enough to make a game "pay to win." But rather, when the game puts a wall between the non-paying player and paying player, that a non-paying player can NEVER get past. Are those elements present in ToS? Nope.
So personally, ToS is not "pay to win," are there benefits you can get from paying over the non-paying? Yes, but are these impossible to get by the non-paying player? Nope, almost nothing in this game is purely restricted by paying because a majority of them can be obtained through the market board with in game currency which is money everyone has. On a scale of pay to win from 1 being non-existent (Path of Exile) to all about paying to win a 10. ToS only stands only at 2-3. Disagree? I'm more than willing to educate.
+Olbohn "pay 2 win" is not a thing anyway. It's an entirely subjective thing people use to describe what they can and can't accept PERSONALLY in f2p games. But somehow you think a 1-10 scale would make it any less arbitrary? Come on man...
+CloakingDonkey But pay-2-win is a thing... the problem lies in it being open to any type of interpretation. It's like rating a game for how "good" it is, yes the word good can be entirely subjective, but giving it a score is a place to start and look at how often video games are reviewed and given scores these days? That's sort of the point you know.... To be above that, and give the most objective opinion possible? I can understand common gamers having their own opinions but... you should be above that and recognize what is and isn't pay-2-win by now.
Are you really suggesting permanent stats is a subjective thing? Pretty sure, every single player would say that screams pay-2-win... come on now.. I expected more. There are areas or grey and areas of black/white... you should really know that for someone who spends so much time giving reviews...Might want to spend some time educating yourself a bit more before you make a video on these various topics.
I sayyyy P2W IS THE NEW META, Donkey you must be a part of it.
did you know about the new update? anyone can trade now.. you dont need tokens to trade anymore.
+jarmsfirstclaw yeah i know. It's the curse of MMORPG guides. Sooner or later they are obsolete or missing information no matter how diligent you are ;)
+CloakingDonkey Might wanna add annotations to correct that.. else people might misunderstand :(
jarmsfirstclaw they will anyway cause most people have annotations turned off or watch from mobile devices where they don't work. But I'll make one.
Ever going to make small guides for classes with the game finally leaving beta form.
+FueledByFury yes I'm working on class guides now. Uploading one as I type this in fact ;)
CloakingDonkey Awesome, i'm trying to pick up the game but there's a lot of planning you gotta do for you don't mess up lol.
Tokens sell relatively cheap for silver and if you reach lategame content it shouldn't be that hard to obtain 500k silver which is the current price.
+MeetMeViceVersa remember that the game is still early access only... which means most of the people playing currently already have tokens. The prices will go up.
it goes for 700k min now and will be getting more expensive
somacruzfirm I expect it will settle around 1 million or so.
for a month old video, alot of information you provide is off the mark... or you made this video half a year ago or you didnt research your stuff properly..
Or the game just launched and had various patches in the last month which rendered the video obsolete. Let's assume that it's me being shit though :P
On CBT there was option to buy better guild hall ( more character slots ) for TP. It's still available ? or they remove them?
+Yuki Kazura they're not in the store atm as far as i can tell.
CloakingDonkey
There was option in guild hall ( character select screen ) to upgrade it for tp.
+CloakingDonkey dude... it's literally at the character select screen...
jarmsfirstclaw oooooh the team thing. I thought you meant an RMT upgrade for the guild tower. Alright... yes those team rooms are still available. I did forget to bring them up. whoops.
CloakingDonkey
thanks for info.
How do you buy TP? i think you can't buy them right now.
+SpiralSerpent Yeah I don't think they are for sale yet. Maybe they're having trouble with steam or something.
can you vend in the game without having crafting classes like alchemists, like sell rare wepons and armor?
and is there an auction house?
I'm really exited about the game too but f2p got moved :(
+Player Name Yes on both accounts, you can vendor most items you find no matter your class and there is an auction house.
I've played this game for months now, enjoying my high level characters, without having ever spent a penny. So it's basically a "pay to play more comfortably" type of game. There's no "win" at this point anyway...
A bit outdated already. They are lifting the limitations on trading and team storage and will keep removing limitations little by little in future. Actually I like this model. This way they can earn money and players are satisfied, some have to pay for it in advance, some have to wait a bit. Here are the patch notes:
forum.treeofsavior.com/t/server-transfer-maintenance-and-patch-notes-april-26th-2016/215880
+Daniel Korolev I know about the patch changes which is why I didn't talk about the stuff that gets removed. The trade limit sadly still stays for now, you only don't lose anymore charges for team trading. The footage still shows them but that's not really something I can change without having access to the patched game ;)
I'm sure they will have more changes in the future but that's part of the business of making MMO guides. At some point they will be obsolete no matter how long you wait.
CloakingDonkey It's not the only change. Mortal non-token players can now trade items, they will become untradable after. At least that's what the patch notes say. Haven't tested yet.
And you are right about the guides surely.
Thank you for the video by the way.
Daniel Korolev ah yes i forgot about the 1 time trades. good point. I'll add it as an annotation.
+Daniel Korolev "This way they can earn money and players are satisfied" there are other games that earn money and have satisfied players without Gimping free to play players.
GoAwayGoogle When you make a game we will see what model you will incorporate.
Vanity Items are always good, up to a certain amount of cost. Hey, they do nothing but people still buy them. More money to the devs
+Lance Lindle Lee Yeah I got nothing against them, there's just not much to review... I'm not a fashion guy xD
CloakingDonkey I never buy them but they allow better F2P experiences for free players
Well, is not that bad. Is a montly fee and be happy. The enchant and trade is kinda dumb... but w/e.
If the Brasil server is cheap 5~10 dolars a month (I m from Argentina)... I m gonna pick it up.
the service is mediocre compared to other montly fee games / buy to play games / ftp
I wont pay for constant lag, server drops, etc
The token helps a lot, but extra exp rates have been used in multiple games just so you can hit the level cap faster. The market is pretty useless stop taxing shit, a lot of people trade more valuable items. Being able to learn attributes helps a lot, but doesn't mean much it will only help with leveling you, don't need max attributes till end game, this is going to take a while no matter what. Token is only worth 400k now and will probably consistently go down because 2 weeks ago it was 800k plus. Enchants are kind of useless unless you get a good level 3 enchant. I think if the tp shop sold the arde dagger or something better and had multiple items you could just buy it would be pay2win. If your not a silver buyer you actually have to grind for items. It doesn't really matter though the majority of people will give up on this game when they reach level 165-175. I only have a few friends that log on now that I met in game rather than real life.
you might not think this is p2w, but it sounds a lot like that to me.
Then again from what i was reading this is a nexon game, and that's nexons game.
+GoAwayGoogle It's not run by Nexon in the west, the developer is self publishing via Steam.
i was excited about this game but this just killed it for me.
+siv yig how so?
idk :( i was play archeage and that thing feels like patron xD and i dun want to have to work for patron every month xD
siv yig it's nowhere near as harsh as patron. You can definitely play the game just fine without it, which imo you could not in AA. I don't know how the prices will be once the game opens to f2p though, it's something we'll have to wait and see.
i guess it would only me fair to give it a try before judging it :) it was highly anticipated :D this is what ragnarok online 2 should've been :)
siv yig oh gods don't remind me of RO2... I just threw up in my mouth a little :x And yeah just give it a go. I ended up really liking it for what it is and I'm usually more of a PvP guy ;)
the day when a donkey educated me in economics... huh... (• ε •)
+the knight that say nay! Don't worry, it takes everyone by surprise :D
Its so annoying when people have personal definitions for what "Pay to Win" means. There is only one fucking definition and you don't get to rewrite it. If the game lets you purchase an advantage that a non paying player cannot get as easily as you can with money... YOU ARE PAYING TO WIN. I don't care if you are OK with it, I don't care if love the game, etc etc.
CloakingDonkey I'm not going to debate you if you're going to argue like an upset child. Goodbye.
***** Oh well let's see, who was it that stumbled into my comment section like a belligerent chav, telling me off for speaking my mind in my own gods damned video? You don't get to claim the moral high ground or play the offended victim after that you absolute muppet. Now go throw all your toys out the pram somewhere else.
please teach me how to level it took me 9hours to level up to 42.
The early levels are the worst. Questing is usually the fastest way of leveling but there are some lvl brackets that have amazing grind spots, such as Tenet Garden at 30-50, Royal Mausoleum at 70-80, Demon Prison, etc. You will also want to eek out 10-20 levels out of the dungeons. First one being the Cathedral in east Tenet Garden at lvl 50. Good luck =)
CloakingDonkey so i should always clear out all quests then dungeon while also grinding basically?
Glauyangar Untryr Quests > Dungeons > Grind. Unless you have a group at which point grinding becomes better. As a Swordsman you will have issues grinding without a Cleric to heal you because your health takes forever to regenerate.
gems on drop did not become free loot, no one can pick it except yourself
+Ahmadannuha Maghfuri They will become free loot after the normal waiting period, just like any other loot on the ground.
Thanks a lot for your review, definitely not going to play this game now...
Yeah, pretty much P2W. Personal opinion versus facts: Getting out gameplay mechanics, not having to play the game as much because you dropped cash are examples of you PAYING real cash TO WIN at the game.
A ton of other developers and publishers doing the same thing doesn't suddenly make this practice not paying to win at the game you're playing, even if you like it. Someone else paying for it doesn't make it not P2W. Skipping ahead means you skip out times when you could've died.
Better to embrace it being Pay to Win like in the same way you tell people that game has them grinding a lot at the later levels. Dancing around the issue does the players a disservice, the developer didn't have to go this route and they can definitely change. Accepting it is only going to make them bolder in their future P2W shenanigans. Especially if the user numbers drop off.
just skip the game then. korea game is always p2w. and everything overpriced
+NightOdin token price its too high and...
Non-Token users are also able to trade.
1:1 trading between two Token users remains the same. However,
if even one player does not have a Token activated, the traded item will
become [Untradable] after the trade.
like wow, most of the thing's now are Pay to skip instead of P2W
Solaire De Astora played 10 hours, wow so much restriction for f2p player
Sounds pretty pay to fuckin win to me
they changed quite a bit of stuff around since I made this. I'll be updating it soon.
ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ GET RIPPED FAM
(°ロ°)☝
Holly shit man $12.38 for ToS? Are they insane? Wow is 12.99. Now I am sorry to compare it to wow, but Blizzard sort of set the bar for both quality, and price. And if we run past the fact that ToS is NOT even close to Wow vanilla, then we still get stuck on, well is it better than WoW OLD for a brand new player? Probably not. Wow was dumbed down by a lot, and I blame Activision for it, but that turns off elites and vets not newbs. I am tired of these f2p game publishers thinking their product is worth as much as WoW. Its arrogant. And I am done pretending it isn't.With 6.8 million subscribers Blizzard still has a ton of servers to support and hold a huge UX and CS staff employed, not to mention account hacking prevention and recovery systems they have put in. Point is Blizzard have dumped tons into wow to keep the quality up, failure does not negate the investment. (they failed to keep the game fun)If MMOs dont want to be compared to WoW, they should try to be modest in their sub costs, otherwise I am comparing apples to apples
+Dimitre H Value is a pretty subjective thing though. The 15€ for WoW I would never pay again... not even if it was the last game on earth. ToS I like a lot and I'm getting dozens of hours of entertainment out of it, making the investment worth it for me. Your mileage may of course vary ;)
I hear you... wait 15 euros? 6 month prepaid is 12.99$ in the US. Honestly Legion may be good. I'll let you know.
+CloakingDonkey The point he made unfortunately isnt as subjective mate. It is quite the opposite. He basically said: Game A had Money Y spent on it and therefore has to get payed amount Z to stay in black numbers (schwarze Zahlen, du weißt was ich meine). If Y is significantly smaller in case of game B, why would Z stay the same? I may be wrong....dunno. But that seems to be a valid question to ask.
Yes. That is closer to what I was saying. Production costs don't match the price. The difference between a Rolex and a Casio, yeah the Casio is digital and has more options like a chronograph, but the Rolex has higher overhead cost of materials and labor.
Or between a VW Beetle vs a BMW 530i
Dimitre H So you think WoW, the game that has 10 month - 1 year long content gaps on a pretty regular basis costs 15$ a month because it's worth that much? Please. Worth does not play into it with video games. That's simply how it is. Do you really think both Civilization V and The Order 1886 should cost 60$ or have to cost 60$ or are worth 60$? Of course not. There is such a thing as an industry standard and nowhere is this more obvious than with video games.
With video games you have to decide for yourself if something is worth however much it costs. WoW could cost 2€ a month and I wouldn't play that shit... 12€ a month for ToS is worth it to me. Both more or less follow inustry standard in their pricing however. Worth and Value are subjective criteria and they are the criteria that SHOULD matter to everyone.