Fascinating, but hard to apply this stuff as a self supported master skier. Distilling it down to a relatively few patterns and identifiable conditions would be nice.
It sure is daunting - even for us, with a fleet of 8 pairs of matched skis dedicated to testing hand structure... Our goal and purpose is to boil it down to something simple and well proven. So far we have two race weekends working with the tool, and we have had really good success. But it will take more time! At least you know we're trying to get closer to simplifying a complex system!
Из практики работы с ножами разных производителей,я скажу так это творческая работа.Бывает когда комбинации srb end swix работают вместе и 3 и 4 ножа,и по всей длине лыжи,бывает только из середины лыжи,бывает только пятка лыжи работает.Это безконечный процес,как мазки у художника.В идеале иметь человека который комбинирует ножи и наносит,а два тест пилота катают на лыжах эти рисунки.Три или четыре человека занимаються сруктурами и больше ничем,узкоспециализированные должны быть.Фантазии идут до безконечности,комбинаций море!
Very interesting! Just a few days ago I ordered a Swix hand structure tool (T0424) and a few rollers (1 mm and 2 mm linears + 0.5 mm and 0.3 mm V-shape). There's not too much information out there on which structure to use in which conditions. From what I've gathered, I'm going to try using the 0.3 mm V structure on new, fine and cold snow, the 0.5 mm V structure on coarse snow, and the linear 1 mm structure when it's wet or close to it. While I don't have two pairs of identical skis, I've been toying with the idea of experimenting with different hand structures on different skis of the same pair (maybe test the other without a structure first as a control) to see if there's a noticeable difference. It's going to take some time to get an understanding with that method though. :) Luckily I live in Northern Europe so I think I can trust the manufacturer recommendations a reasonable amount.
Yes - it takes some time. But your proposed method is really smart - first test one structure on one skis against an unmodified ski, and then, if it is better, try another modification on the next ski. And if you continue to improve, you can now test further modification - like adding a linear to an interrupted thread pattern, or something like that. It starts to add up quickly and you learn a lot over some repeated days of trying, even with only one pair of skis!
Nice presentation with lots of information. I really like this geek stuff to help understand ski glide. Empirical information would be good but I bet hard to get. I do Have one of the old Finite structure tools and would like to get some different rollers, are they available anywhere.the coarse ones I have work well in Mt Washington BC wet snow. but need more variety.
Would love to hear your comments on their user guide which has a basic map of patterns vs snow I have a Finite Structure dual press box and still havent figured out the perfect combo’s But i do agree a cross hatch left pattern seems to work very well in many cold dry condition days
I'm not worthy, as a skier, of this information, but I find it fascinating. And I need to do some more shopping with you guys. When does the book come out?
Someday you will be playing around with laser etching, abrasive blasting and hot tempering the base with fancy pattern irons. Just for fun, have you tried running structure like hot scraping or on a frozen ski? Golfball dimples? Unrelated, any Ski Trab updates since 2016? (Old guy with a bunch of screw in binding)
So, I haven't used laser etching, but I have definitely explored blasting media pretty extensively. And I have worked with heated bases or heated structure drums. And of course we often apply structures outdoors in cold temperatures. So far, no big change with the temp - more variability inherent in pressure applied by different techs! Some tools exist to measure the pressure applied to hand structure to try to make it more consistent... It's a big variable that is poorly controlled! And yeah, golf-ball dimples are on the agenda. Ski Trab has continued to push ahead and they have for sure made some new stuff, and appear to have a much more active program to control cambers than what we saw when we visited previously. Our "hit rate" with the skis they sent us as an experiment was much too low for the program to be viable, and it was definitely because of big uncontrolled variation in camber. Those guys had perfect control of materials, and no real idea about camber. I think that has evolved, but I can't speak to it with any inside knowledge or expertise.
You should check out Skimateria and their Shark pattern roller. The idea behind it is the same technology that they applied to elite swimmers swim suits couple of years ago. According to many makes good results in very wet conditions. But the skis sound like a old pair of Fischer Crown.
Please explain how North American snow is different from Euro snow. For that matter, how northern Euro snow is different from southern Euro snow, as suggested on some Rode kick waxes, and the different North American snows.
Global climate is fascinating. Most of the southern Europe snow is in the alps, and is characterized by snowfall events based on orographic lifting and mountain-specific micro-climates. Combined with higher elevations and a more alpine environment with drier air, this tends to create more dendritic and sharper snow than northern Europe. Up north there is typically higher humidity and more moisture in the snow. North America is wild because while Europe has moisture coming on-board from the Atlantic, we get our moisture differently. In AK they have conditions similar to Northern Europe. Further south, in the Northwest, it might be closer to some of the snow in Asia. As you move east, you get to the western mountains, and you see really big effect from LARGE altitude adjustments, including very dry snowfall, and also the presence of downsloping foehn winds that can cause rapid warming and transformation on the lee side of the mountains. And then you get to the upper mid-west which is locked into the middle of a huge continent, a long way from any moisture sources, and is more like Siberia than any other place that people try to ski. And the east... Forget about everything you know about anything, and just resign yourself to chaos.
Next to the question of choosing the material (steel or brass), there is a question about the optimal diameter of the roller. My set with thin rollers does not work well. The rollers require very high pressure on the tool. It was an unpleasant surprise. Рядом с вопросом выбора материала (сталь или латунь) есть вопрос об оптимальном диаметре ролика. Мой набор с тонкими роликами работает плохо. Ролики требуют очень большого давления на инструмент. Это было неприятной неожиданностью.
Yes - it's a good point! A larger diameter drum requires more downforce to make a similar impression. The smaller diameter drums require less downforce to make an impression. At this point all of the tools that we work and have shown in the video with seem to start with a 20mm blank and then mill the pattern - so the final structure drum is just below 20mm on almost all of them. Except for the V2 drums - those are 44mm!
Fascinating, but hard to apply this stuff as a self supported master skier. Distilling it down to a relatively few patterns and identifiable conditions would be nice.
It sure is daunting - even for us, with a fleet of 8 pairs of matched skis dedicated to testing hand structure... Our goal and purpose is to boil it down to something simple and well proven. So far we have two race weekends working with the tool, and we have had really good success. But it will take more time! At least you know we're trying to get closer to simplifying a complex system!
Из практики работы с ножами разных производителей,я скажу так это творческая работа.Бывает когда комбинации srb end swix работают вместе и 3 и 4 ножа,и по всей длине лыжи,бывает только из середины лыжи,бывает только пятка лыжи работает.Это безконечный процес,как мазки у художника.В идеале иметь человека который комбинирует ножи и наносит,а два тест пилота катают на лыжах эти рисунки.Три или четыре человека занимаються сруктурами и больше ничем,узкоспециализированные должны быть.Фантазии идут до безконечности,комбинаций море!
Пока не будет четкой научной базы, все это мартышкин труд.
@@TpaBkaTpaBka Мне жалко вас бедолаг,далеких от профи спорта.Диванные эксперты!
Totally get this and understand everything
Very interesting! Just a few days ago I ordered a Swix hand structure tool (T0424) and a few rollers (1 mm and 2 mm linears + 0.5 mm and 0.3 mm V-shape). There's not too much information out there on which structure to use in which conditions. From what I've gathered, I'm going to try using the 0.3 mm V structure on new, fine and cold snow, the 0.5 mm V structure on coarse snow, and the linear 1 mm structure when it's wet or close to it. While I don't have two pairs of identical skis, I've been toying with the idea of experimenting with different hand structures on different skis of the same pair (maybe test the other without a structure first as a control) to see if there's a noticeable difference. It's going to take some time to get an understanding with that method though. :) Luckily I live in Northern Europe so I think I can trust the manufacturer recommendations a reasonable amount.
Yes - it takes some time. But your proposed method is really smart - first test one structure on one skis against an unmodified ski, and then, if it is better, try another modification on the next ski. And if you continue to improve, you can now test further modification - like adding a linear to an interrupted thread pattern, or something like that. It starts to add up quickly and you learn a lot over some repeated days of trying, even with only one pair of skis!
Nice presentation with lots of information. I really like this geek stuff to help understand ski glide. Empirical information would be good but I bet hard to get. I do Have one of the old Finite structure tools and would like to get some different rollers, are they available anywhere.the coarse ones I have work well in Mt Washington BC wet snow. but need more variety.
Would love to hear your comments on their user guide which has a basic map of patterns vs snow
I have a Finite Structure dual press box and still havent figured out the perfect combo’s
But i do agree a cross hatch left pattern seems to work very well in many cold dry condition days
Do you have any thoughts on sprocket driven rollers vs. non sprocket?
I'm not worthy, as a skier, of this information, but I find it fascinating. And I need to do some more shopping with you guys. When does the book come out?
There will never be a book. Everything evolves too quickly to ever want to put it all down in print!
Someday you will be playing around with laser etching, abrasive blasting and hot tempering the base with fancy pattern irons. Just for fun, have you tried running structure like hot scraping or on a frozen ski? Golfball dimples? Unrelated, any Ski Trab updates since 2016? (Old guy with a bunch of screw in binding)
So, I haven't used laser etching, but I have definitely explored blasting media pretty extensively. And I have worked with heated bases or heated structure drums. And of course we often apply structures outdoors in cold temperatures. So far, no big change with the temp - more variability inherent in pressure applied by different techs! Some tools exist to measure the pressure applied to hand structure to try to make it more consistent... It's a big variable that is poorly controlled! And yeah, golf-ball dimples are on the agenda.
Ski Trab has continued to push ahead and they have for sure made some new stuff, and appear to have a much more active program to control cambers than what we saw when we visited previously. Our "hit rate" with the skis they sent us as an experiment was much too low for the program to be viable, and it was definitely because of big uncontrolled variation in camber. Those guys had perfect control of materials, and no real idea about camber. I think that has evolved, but I can't speak to it with any inside knowledge or expertise.
You should check out Skimateria and their Shark pattern roller. The idea behind it is the same technology that they applied to elite swimmers swim suits couple of years ago. According to many makes good results in very wet conditions. But the skis sound like a old pair of Fischer Crown.
Please explain how North American snow is different from Euro snow. For that matter, how northern Euro snow is different from southern Euro snow, as suggested on some Rode kick waxes, and the different North American snows.
Global climate is fascinating. Most of the southern Europe snow is in the alps, and is characterized by snowfall events based on orographic lifting and mountain-specific micro-climates. Combined with higher elevations and a more alpine environment with drier air, this tends to create more dendritic and sharper snow than northern Europe. Up north there is typically higher humidity and more moisture in the snow.
North America is wild because while Europe has moisture coming on-board from the Atlantic, we get our moisture differently. In AK they have conditions similar to Northern Europe. Further south, in the Northwest, it might be closer to some of the snow in Asia. As you move east, you get to the western mountains, and you see really big effect from LARGE altitude adjustments, including very dry snowfall, and also the presence of downsloping foehn winds that can cause rapid warming and transformation on the lee side of the mountains. And then you get to the upper mid-west which is locked into the middle of a huge continent, a long way from any moisture sources, and is more like Siberia than any other place that people try to ski. And the east... Forget about everything you know about anything, and just resign yourself to chaos.
@@caldwellsportskiNice summary!
🚀🚀🚀
Next to the question of choosing the material (steel or brass), there is a question about the optimal diameter of the roller. My set with thin rollers does not work well. The rollers require very high pressure on the tool. It was an unpleasant surprise.
Рядом с вопросом выбора материала (сталь или латунь) есть вопрос об оптимальном диаметре ролика. Мой набор с тонкими роликами работает плохо. Ролики требуют очень большого давления на инструмент. Это было неприятной неожиданностью.
Yes - it's a good point! A larger diameter drum requires more downforce to make a similar impression. The smaller diameter drums require less downforce to make an impression. At this point all of the tools that we work and have shown in the video with seem to start with a 20mm blank and then mill the pattern - so the final structure drum is just below 20mm on almost all of them. Except for the V2 drums - those are 44mm!
Even if I understood......I would never admit it.