ScreenPrism I swear you guys be reading my mind I was just watching this movie thinking about I wonder if there's a screenprism video and then it pops up 😀😀😀😀
I would like you guys to do an analysis of Axelrod and Rhodes from Billions". The exploration of toxic masculinity as the fuel that puts their entire lives as men and professionals.
ScreenPrism I absolutely love this channel and love what you do. I have some potential movie ideas for you all: Baby Drive (role of music in movies), Cloud Atlas, and interstellar. Just a thought and I cannot wait for your next videos!
“It’s all about popularity. There’s no genuine concern for those that are actually suffering.” I think this explains why 13 reasons failed and why it’s another show that romanticizes suicide
Arlyn Yes, but it handles the topic of suicide poorly. Once you die, you die. You won’t be able to see the impact of the tapes you made for the people you hate. You won’t appear as some ghost that silently views the living world. You’re just dead and you’re not coming back.
Luna S. It’s still pretty fucked that they hired a team of psychologists to see what would be the most triggering under the premise of going to avoid it in the show, at least on screen, when they blatantly used it to show all of the bad things they could. Watch the episodes of Behind the Reasons that have the psychologists they consulted with talking about episodes with the writers and an interviewer. In almost all of them the psych says that what happened on screen was incredibly wrong and begged the viewer to avoid it. The writer just stared at the floor trying to be invisible. It’s disgusting.
Heathers was truly ahead of their time. It was the first teen movie to understand how insignificant high school is in the long run, in contrast to the more light and idealistic John Hughes films of that era.
Heather Cameron Yes, the musical version of "Heathers" is pretty good. While retaining the same black comedy that made the original so iconic, it makes Veronica and J.D. more sympathetic.
Spork Person True, it does play it lighter. The movie points out how terrible that sort of relationship can be. It's best shown in the car scene after the murder of Kurt and Ram, when Veronica burns her hand with a lighter to feel something, and J. D. lights his cigarette off her hand, literally feeding off of her misery. She also realises how much better her life would have been without "cool guys" like him.
I apologize this is random, but could you explain the message? I'm thinking it's about how the mother sees that teenagers are being treated like teenagers because they ARE, but they don't accept that and ask for acceptance into a higher status.
I totally concur with your comment! In the words of Bowling for Soup, "High School Never Ends", and adults can be just as immature, confused and insecure as they were when they attended school.
"When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, it's usually because they are being treated like human beings." my favourite line in that entire movie
It is a great line! Teenagers being unaware of the thing that adults already know to be true: that human beings treat each other terribly. Teens get frustrated more because they’re not used to being treated badly as high school is their introduction to adult social dynamics. They want to be treated well but don’t understand yet that that type of behavior is the norm. It isn’t just high school it’s the world. A bit of a nihilistic message for sure but there are some truths there.
I don't agree with the idea that people don't have hidden depths. Heather C certainly had hidden depths shown in her private moment in the bathroom when she spits water at herself, she despises herself and shows symptoms of depression, there was an element of truth in her over dramatic suicide note, I think the satirical part came from how everyone made her death about themselves.
And how people are so willing to feel bad after somebody has already killed themselves, but don't do anything for teens who are still struggling to stay alive. Like, Martha attempted suicide, but no one cared besides a few people because she didn't actually die and because she was unpopular compared to Heather. Also, I think it was showing how even though Martha could die in the near future, but there was still a chance to save her, society didn't care also because people are taught that severe depression and suicidal tendencies in teens is normal and even poke fun at it instead of going, "Hey, maybe there's an actual problem here and they're not just being 'dumb dramatic teenagers'..."
I agree. Even Heather M. had depth. Her bulimia was brushed off as a weakness since the beginning. She didn't try to commit suicide as a trend either, but no one except Veronica bothered to notice.
I always found it noteworthy that once Heather C died, it was a beautiful tragedy, but when Heather M inadvertently spoke out about her current troubles and worries, she was generally unaknowledged except to be made fun of. Veronica even states "she knows that we listen to this show". Heather M knew what she was doing, more than just venting. She was asking her friends for help and support. Just to be called a crybaby. Even within the popular crowd, she isn't safe Heartbreaking
This might be over a year old but THIS. MacNamara, even if she didn't do it on purpose, tried to get help from her friends. She didn't pick up the radio show by chance. Either this is the only one she knows of or she WANTED her friends to hear her on the very slim chance they were listening and recognized her. The latter is the most likely as Veronica and Duke are close and hang out often. Them listening to it is at least a weekly activity they both do. MacNamara picked THAT specific day on accident? No way, no day. Part of her wanted this. And the rest knew what would happen: none of them are surprised by what happened. She then goes back to hanging out with Duke. It's just the way their friendship is. She bullied Duke and Duke finally got to bully her back. It also seemed like she was closer to Chandler than to Duke (obviously because she made fun of her and enabled Chandler) and to Veronica (the movie makes a point of showing whom she's close to and MacNamara is barely mentioned). She lost her friend. Then her sort-of boyfriend who raped her multiple times and she was lead to believe he didn't even like her/preferred men. Her place in the friend group gets lower, she has personal stuff going on, she gets mocked and was led to believe that suicide was cool and what popular people do. She's a follower. Of course she would follow "Chandler's" lead even in death. It doesn't help that her note has similarities with her current situation. So the whole movie is her getting beaten up by the plot. Before the events, she was living with some sort of cluelessness. She was a bit of touch with reality and it's not until the second murders that it all comes crashing on her. (She wasn't too bothered by Chandler's death and more than willing to go do some interviews. Though she was still a bit detached when making that call to the radio show. Her priorities were also screwed up which is really sad. She genuinely believes that her math grades and being a cheerleader were more important than her friend and sort-of bf being alive). MacNamara exists to show the impact of everything that happened and the consequences of it all and thus to move the plot so she isn't really developed (even in the first drafts) but when you think about it, it's really sad even when she doesn't think so. Also not so fun fact, she was supposed to wear green once Duke became the queen bee. MacNamara became the punching ball.
Great points. And, she had a legit eating disorder, which shows even more how much a victim of her circumstances she really was. Seems she might have been the only “Heather” with somewhat of a heart?
Whenever I watch Heather's I'd think the same thing, and then finding out he was imitating Jack Nicholson I thought huh I guess he was playing the Joker all along lol
Moby Dick was supposed to be the Catcher in the Rye but they couldn't get the rights, I feel Moby Dick is funnier though. Less typical high school literature angst more eclectic just like the film itself.
_The Catcher in the Rye_ would be too easy. It's already about teen angst. Now, finding pull quotes from _Moby Dick_ that are germane to a teen suicide - that's talent.
LifeIsABeach3210 fun fact: I'm pretty sure they couldn't get movie rights for Catcher In the Rye because in the book Holden talks about his disdain for movies and hollywood.
Great analysis. I particularly loved the point about Betty vs. Martha...I never thought about that. Betty may be nicer than the Heathers, but she isn't fundamentally any different from them. I don't see _her_ reaching out to Martha either. Only Veronica does.
The contrast between Betty and Martha is also the contrast between "nice" and "good". Betty is more...socially adept, more intelligent, more emotionally intelligent. But this does not translate into morality, as she is still more concerned with status. Martha maybe socially inept, but she is more withdrawn and introspective, and sees status as utterly empty. Martha is thus treated with contempt, while Betty is held up as a paragon. @@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254
@jeremyud, the musical combined them because they wanted Veronica to have a connection to the other end of the high school spectrum. It made her a more in-depth, relatable character. It was smart of the musical to combine them because we get to know her better.
"DID NOT" "DID TOO" "DID NOT" "DID NOT DID NOT DID NOT DID NOT DID NOT" "DID TOO-" "MARY HAD A LITTLE LAMB LITTLE LAMB LITTLE LAMB LALALALALALALALA" that is my favorite scene 🚫🧢
@@melodysafo5437 You might not want a murderer to be POC and the bullied girl who becomes a huge bitch and bully another POC. And that's just talking about what the movie showed. In the TV show Veronica CANNOT be a POC. Like... no it goes against most of her character and one of the points of the show.
I think the fact that there is no profound takeaway is what I like so much about this film. There's no preciousness about it. I love John Hughes' movies, and it's easy to almost confuse this as a John Hughes movie because of the young talent and the era. But unlike John Hughes' movies, Heathers doesn't tie anything everything up with a neat little bow. It's refreshing.
It's interesting how the musical adaptation of Heathers tells the same story, but from a totally different worldview. The movie has a somewhat misanthropic view of humanity, viewing society as evil because people are basically evil. The musical however is less cynical and more hopeful, despite being just as dark, viewing people as products of a shitty environment. As a result, many of the same scenes and characters take on a more tragic air. JD for example still does the same things, but with different motivations. In the movie, he was just a violent sociopath using the pretence of getting back at bullies to lash out. In the musical however, he really does seem disgusted by the way society elevates bullies and devalues their victims. And notably, he was originally more annoyed than upset upon thinking Veronica killed herself; whereas in the adaptation, he's genuinely heartbroken.
Some would say this is all just a case of "softening the edges" of the original story, but I see it more as recontextualising the story with a different ethos in mind - less misanthropic and more sociological.
musicaltheatergeek79 The original movie is closer to a (capital-r) Romantic sensibility than the musical is, given its bleak outlook on modern society. The musical has more of an Enlightenment view of things. It opens with a song where Veronica longs for how things used to be in early childhood, before social hierarchies moulded kids into ruthless machines seeking power and status. And it ends with the call to try to achieve something resembling that again, even if "I can't promise no more Heathers". It hints at a sort of cautious hopefulness.
Eoin O'Connor Agree completely. I was trying to pinpoint why, after seeing the musical, the movie became slightly more off-putting to me than it did before. But you got it. IMO the musical is actually more realistic than the movie, and that is _because of_ rather than in spite of it's greater optimism and more sympathetic portrayal of the cast. I don't think there's a single person who can say their teen years were squeaky clean. But while high school is awful and can be unnecessarily stressful due to our own stupidity, it doesn't make us all inherently evil. Everyone is only ever trying to make their lives bearable. Sometimes we're so desperate to do that we hurt others who can even conceivably get in our way-intentionally or no. I especially like that the speaker of the video mentioned the role of dismissive adults in the story; the lackluster support adults may give teenagers only perpetuates that cycle. Once we get out of high school and into college and then out of college, we become "free". We begin to think of ourselves as enlightened, more intelligent, and above the inanity and "nonsense" of teen drama when we're _not_. It's almost a kind of superiority-inferiority complex, the extent to which elders will alienate youths because their problems are just sooooo trivial, supposedly, compared to the trials of the "real world." This aloofness and sheer lack of empathy exacerbates the frustrations of kids who are just in need of guidance as we once were. They're navigating their own chaos without a compass, which results that range from "mild anxiety/loneliness from need of peer acceptance" to "literal fucking murder." Even when adults _do_ try to help youths, it often comes across as controlling, condescending and/or wildly out of touch-Ms. Fleming comes to mind-all due to the fact that, while they may treat teens as _human_, they refuse to treat them as _equals_. Both the movie and the musical portray this issue pretty clearly, but I appreciate that the latter had a more objective take. You can tell that Veronica's parents and the school faculty truly _want_ to understand their kids, but notice how they never get past _claiming_ they do or treating Heather's apparent _suicide_ as a book they can analyze. Whilst in the movie, basically the only redeemable characters are Veronica, Betty/Martha, and Heather McNamara. I almost included JD, but he... kinda... well, tried to kill everyone. And died.
I can't be the only one who sees this film not only as a sharp satire at not only society's saccarine, banal view of teenagers as exemplified in films like Pretty in Pink, Back to the Future, and so on, but also as a scathing critique of the sunshiney, vapid, yuppie, reactionary materialism of the Reagan years. This is the equivalent of someone flipping over a table and decrying the bullshit that had invaded the ethos of America. Not enough art of the time recognized the absurdity of its era, but Heathers did, and I applaud it.
I always read it that way too - the dark side of that consumer capitalist upper-middle class, self destructing through the kids they had (mis)raised. Being a late GenXer myself, who lived her high school years through the transition from the "Heathers" years to the "Grunge" 90's, I recognised so much vital truth in Heathers, that seemed to be seriously lacking elsewhere.
Plus it actually flopped when it first came out in 1989 and it didn't find its strong following until it was on video and cable channels like HBO and Showtime in the early 90s. Veronica would have fit perfectly in the Nirvana era!!
And I find the irony delicious that my favourite role-model as a pre-teen was Winnona Ryder's previous character in Beetlejuice. I saw that movie when it came out, and instantly recognised who I was going to be in a few years. Looking back, I find that both deeply sad and hilarious at the same time.
@@ACETYGRA It did get good reviews when it first came out, though. I remember a review of it in my local paper the day it came out and I went to see it the next day. Classic.
"I love my dead, gay son!" The really messed up truth in that line is that if Kurt and Ram were really gay, and they had come out, especially then, suicide might have been the only way for their parents to put the homosexuality aside, and accept them. It's moments like that which truly contrast the false choice of someone choosing to be gay or straight, with the real choice of whether you'd rather have a gay child, or a dead child (as the result of your own homophobic prejudice). A gay person only has three choices: lie, and conform to society, thereby opening the potential to waste not only your life, but some poor girl's life; be miserable, and alone; or have some fucking integrity, and be honest, while risking misery for a chance at happiness. Who the fuck cares if a parent realizes that they'd rather their son be gay, only after they've had to bury them? Why did it take the sacrifice of a life? My dad still doesn't accept that being gay is normal, and involuntary. He just realized that having a gay son was better than going through life having to deal with the guilt that he'd have if I had died when I tried to overdose, and that's not exactly a huge win for the gay community, and was never my intention when I did try to kill myself. It's been kind of a shitty inroad to rebuilding some kind of relationship with him that didn't involve yelling and crying. It's like if you were trying to get to Hawaii, but got lost, and ended up in Salt Lake City. It's beautiful, but it isn't really what you were looking for, and you can settle for it. Nobody should get a pat on the back for hating who their child is until it's too late to matter. Because at the end of the day both the cause of the event, and the reaction to the event are selfish.
JD says at the double funeral something like "how would he feel about a limp wrist with a pulse?" Its a throw away line but there was a lot of truth there
@@cherrycola.6.6.6 basically, "limp wrist" is slang for gay. JD is saying that despite the dad's show of grief, and support for gay people, the only reason for his change of attitude is that his son supposedly killed himself because of the "fact" that he was gay. In other words, had the pair actually been lovers, they would have been rejected by not just their parents, but the whole community.
the heathers remake show could have been such a fantastically timed thing, seeing as how it shows the dangers of romanticising suicide - something our society could use with shows like 13 rw being hugely popular,... unfortunately they didnt execute it well at all imo. gr8 vid!
And that's where we know Paramount didn't reserve brain tumors for breakfast only. Setting it in the modern era? Fine. Casting minorities, the most bullied minority even in today's high schools, as the Heathers? WTF??? Completely missing the point of the film coupled with bad writing, editing and acting? No wonder the TV series was cancelled right after an espisode or two. I admit, the musical is not as dark as the movie but at least it's still as morbid and manages to get close to the mark. Paramount wasted a great opportunity to make a series that can be pitted against shows like 13 RW and Riverdale by pointing out their bullshit.
Though the first episode was supposed to be available, the Parkland shooting caused the initial delay of the premier. They ought to just either go forward with their season 2 idea (each season = seperate story) or throw in the towel.
He doesn't seem to understand privilege - maybe because he always had it. Instead he sees traditional privilege being eaten into by pc culture and the alleged sjw movement as discrimination. That there would be consequences for wearing a racist T-shirt or fat shaming is seen as bullying in itself. It's tone deaf and and shallow - a Heathers flipped ass over tit to appeal to the "all lives matter" crowd. Unfortunately, they saw trailers featuring a gender queer teen and an angry big girl and dismissed it as "feminazi" or "SJW" propaganda (because idiots gonna idiot) so they didn't watch it either. How this lunatic rendition of Heathers even got off the page is a mystery.
Sorry I imagine the whole essay being, "Heathers is brilliant because it shows us that high school is shitty and most teenagers are c*nts." And the teacher was like "Yeah kid! Tell me about it. This place is pure hell. You get an A!"
This video is fabulous, and really goes deep into one of my favourite films of all time. And as a side note: Christian Slater's performance hit me right in my soul. He was perfect for this role.
christian slater creeped me out from the very beginning but somehow at the end i thought he was hot, so in a way this movie did kind of romanticize his role in the same way the writers of the show “you” romanticized joe goldberg. the audience knows it isn’t right and that the bad guy is a sociopath but there’s a charming element that makes them fall anyway i think
YES. This movie is my life, I love the dark humor, the drama, the outfits, the message.... And this is why I'm so pissed at the reboot. Original Heathers said that we need to take teen problems and learn, to worry about them. Heathers 2018 says "hey, I'm an angsty 50 year old man and I don't like youth. I'm gonna go to tumblr to search for funny worlds like queer or asian". If you ask me, Heathers 2018 should be the new Illegal Heathers
@@nyxssecondemail7065 It's actually pretty good ! Close to the movie but with its own take. It does follow the first ideas for the movie so it's darker and closer to what Heathers would have been if they had budget and an open minded company. Sadly most reviews were made before the full series was aired and very few are actually about the pilot and not the teasers...
Gee, so very. I thought the color code for the Heather and Veronica was interesting too. Veronica representing peace by wearing blue and preventing an actual teen suicide. Heather duke wearing green and representing resilience and greed by surviving cruelty as shown in the croquet game and finally becoming "queen" Heather Chandler and gaining strength in red. Don't forget Heather McNamara wearing yellow that ironically represents prosperity. JD obviously wearing black and being consumed with the idea of power and chaos. Betty wearing pink while nursing societies rules. And lastly the final scene where peace[Veronica] stands on strength[the red carpet].
They were pranking him, some old guy hanging around trying to get in on the lingo so they're like "you know what would be funny?" and just start making stuff up
I know this movie still has a cult following but I wish it was as resonant as John Hughes' films. It's soo good, and watching this after I forced myself to sit through a few modern teen movies on Netflix makes the pain even more acute (mind you I'm 28 so I'm not the target audience anymore, but still). Heathers was a remarkable film for, as you said, being willing to "go there" with an extraordinarily dark storyline for a teen film, but it's such a good reminder that teen movies don't need to be stupid, lazy, and reliant on tired old stereotypes.
Heathers showed us that high school is just as dark as the real world. No High School Musical, no Saved by the Bell, no Grease, no Mean Girls. Some of the hardest memories for me came from high school. Heathers was probably the first high school movie to not have romanticism. It is as if Stanley Kubrick had directed a John Hughes film.
I'm not from America so I don't know how the schools there work but comin' from Australia, Summer Heights High was as racist as the real world for me, I was an ethnic teen that related to the troubles and troublesome attitude from that.
I think it’s interesting how heathers plays out every time a rapper or celebrity dies. we ignore anything atrocious they did during their life because they were killed
There was a teacher suicide in my school over the summer. Tons of people hated him and thought that he was some sort of creep. When he killed him self, everyone was talking about how great he was and that he was one of the best teachers at my high school. Now he’s as forgotten as Connor Murphy was at one point in Dear Evan Hansen. His room is now retired and they have photos of him on his door. It pissed me off how people talked about him like he was their friend when they all (including me) hated him
To me, one of the most important aspects of Heathers was stated outright in the musical version when Heather Chandler ('s spirit) tells Veronica "this is their big secret, Veronica: the adults are powerless" after Miss Fleming turns the Westerburg "suicides" into a spectacle for herself. I feel it is way more than just a throwaway line, because really, there is so much in this movie that could have been avoided if the adults ever actually did anything. Think of how different it would've have been if Big Bud Dean had bothered with his son's mental and emotional state after witnessing his mother commit suicide (hell, musical!JD outright calls his father semi psychotic), or if Miss Fleming had actually been as experienced as she prided herself on being and realized her students were depressed and suicidal and had actually been there for them rather than conduct a televised assembly for attention, or if Veronica's parents had noticed she wasn't acting like herself to the point that she was able to hide the fact that she was involved in THREE murders, and when they believed she was suicidal (while thinking that three of her classmates had killed themselves and one had attempted it as well), they didn't seem nearly as concerned as they should have been. A lot of the events in Heathers happen because the adults ARE powerless, despite what they present themselves as and Heather's following line about "They can't help us. Nobody can help us. We're alone in the ocean" is sadly all too accurate when tied into the plot, because not a single adult ever stopped patronizing those teenagers enough to be helpful in any way.
that’s exactly what I was thinking! such similar concepts. Lord of the Flies is a little more dated though, and considering who it was written by at that time period, it doesn’t hold up as well as heathers. it’s a classic, but I think heathers gives the message a little bit better.
I know JD is a sociopathic murderer, but the understanding that he had of things is so beyond his years. The blind spot that society has with teenagers allowed him to get away with his actions and he truly understood how adults and young children view teenagers as freaks of nature. Personally, I think JD was the best developed character of the film, and one of the smartest.
Fascinating and enlightening as always! I'm curious to know your take on the Musical and/or the musical in contrast to the film. You highlighted looking past the surface for something that may not be there, which I find funny/ironic because the musical makes JD much more sympathetic. But with the knowledge gained from your videonid say he's not any more human for it. While there isn't much to redeem him in the original, he is still very human. That's a testament to the writing. Keep doing what you're doing! Ive had my notifications on for you for months!
I didn't watch The Heathers until I was 25 (like a year ago), and now it is one of my absolute favorite movies. The ending might be one of my all-time favorites. The moment I heard Martha's voice I just felt so calm and happy. I never felt as much hope and happiness as I did that at moment. I actually teared up, and I still do everytime to this day. Such a masterpiece.
I love the fact that Heathers is so upfront with its message. It’s so upfront, in fact, that you literally over analyze it and miss the point completely. That’s real story telling if you ask me
What pisses me off is that people say shit like “oh heather M is such a cinnamon roll!”, Even when she volunteered Veronica for date rape and watched as her friends bullied others without caring enough to stop it, which just proves the point that when people commit suicide, they are romanticized and loved even if they were terrible.
Right? and she wasn’t close to a cinnamon roll,none of the Heathers were, but people who think that most of them have only watched the musical and I believe the musical totally missed the point of the movie, trying to give depth to characters like JD making him more redeemable and making Duke a straight bitch literally Dukes personality in the musical is so different from the movie, they just wanted a character that the audience could hate that wasn’t JD making people justify a psychotic guy and they misunderstood that Heather McNamara wasn’t depressed or even close I think the reason she tried to kill herself was because everyone was doing it and it’s stated in the line when Veronica asks her “if everyone jumped of a bridge would you?” McNamara replied by saying “probably” which shows how the despair of the moment drove her to do what everybody else was doing, but the musical wanted to give a character a depth that wasn’t there which is ironic cause that’s just what the movie is making fun of
the heathers are all perfect examples of “morally gray” characters. there are definitely sympathetic and realistic aspects to them (heather chandler was hinted to have some kind of self hatred, heather duke was constantly shunned by her friends, heather mcnamara was suicidal), but none of them are necessarily “good people” either. i’d say even veronica, the “hero” of the story, could be called morally gray too. her first response to heather’s death was that she wouldn’t be able to go to the prestigious college she wanted to after being convicted of murder. even after the initial shock, she’s relatively indifferent about the deaths, even joking with JD about them from time to time. it’s what distinguishes the characters from the common stereotypical teenagers of 80s movies.
Fleurs Sv when I was in elementary school I was really bullied but not from the typical “mean girls” especially bcs we were children, but no, in my high school it didn’t even exist the “popular” ones or the “nerd” ones or anything like that, we were all equal. There were some people that didn’t get along but in a normal way (? But like I said I live in a 3rd world country totally different from USA, so maybe is a cultural thing too. Also I think in private high schools in my country are girls like that but in public school not at all, like, we poor kids don’t care about that things (? XD I actually always get along with everyone in my class, even if just a few were my friends. And smart people with good grades were respected, I even remember when we were planning skipping class we consult first with the smartest boy in the class (also my crush xd) and he didn’t even care, we were so confused xd
This movie helped me get over my horrible time in highschool. Most movies the outcast ends up fitting in. I didn't want to fit in, I wanted revenge. Vicariously, this movie gave it to me. I was the one that tried suicide. Damn near did, but luckily I was found in time. Ledyard CT 35 years ago, high school was full of entitled kids. If you didn't match, you will be reminded of it every moment. And once you've been outted, it only gets worse. I love this movie at the first time I saw it. I rewound it and watched it again. Today, I've seen it so many times. But in the last 10 years, I think I found peace. It's still a lovely romp in dark comedy. As for bullying, don't put up with it for a moment. It will erode your self-confidence and, it will take a while to shake off. If you feel in any way that you want to harm yourself please reach out. "Don't Do It"
Not all high school are depressing but there are times that school just really drains you out and you go through some deep shit about yourself and your environment. Not all the time high school is great. Anyways, great video on Heathers!
Everytime I see a 80s high school flick, I'm reminded of just how different my high school days were. High School wasn't society. High School was a job. You go in, punch in your hours, do the work, have some coworkers you chatted with during lunch, and that was it. There was no recess anymore. No parties. No events outside of sports and that only happened during the fall when the weather was nice enough for it. School wasn't something you lived in, it was something you worked in. Your teachers were your bosses. Some were nice, some were irritating. There was none of this caste system social hierarchies. Maybe it was because our entire grade fit inside 2 classrooms at most (and even then, but senior year it was a single class max) so maybe we just didn't have enough people to break into castes, but even then, we didn't even really have the time to form cliques outside of breakfast and afterschool clubs. And people barely paid attention to who was what club. (Cheerleaders only wore their uniforms before a game, and even then you could never remember who was or wasn't one until they all started wearing the outfit.
i'm only fifteen and had a really difficult time understanding the message of the movie, this video definitely helped a lot. As someone who's still in high school, heathers opened my eyes, the truth is people are cruel and only care about what will boost their social status; true suffering gets overlooked. reading through these comments i can't help but feel jealous at how incredibly intelligent you all are- you figured out so many different morals and takeaways from this film, and good god the vocabulary in some of yall is immaculate! i need to get out my dictionary 😂 heathers is truly a masterpiece i think ill always have trouble completely deciphering but maybe that's the goal. there doesn't have to always be some deep rooted meaning in everything.
This is real af, I went to a school where kids killed themselves. Some of them were decent kids. But no matter who they really were, everybody romanticized their interactions and relationships with them to the point where they convinced themselves that these people were better than life itself.
I'm so, SO glad you covered Heathers! This is the one timeless classic I think people are not discussing enough. Great video as always, I love you guys
You know what? I have been hearing about this movie hear and there in various movie reviews for years... And this review was the last straw. I stopped about 3 minutes into this video and stopped of to wTch "Heathers" on Netflix. It was excellent! Also, it's the kind of movie perfect for film study class. 👌
Wonderful! I just watched the movie--so dark and violent it was hard to watch at times. This is a perfect video for me to show friends to convince them they ought to watch Heathers too! And the link to Mean Girls, fetch looking to be for them what very was for Heathers? Perfect!
I was going to type a comment disagreeing with this video, but then I remembered something a classmate of mine said when we were talking about college application essays earlier this year and were told to write what makes us unique: “I don’t have anything unique about me, I just try to be like everyone else.” Which is probably the saddest thing I have every heard anyone say in a high school setting, and I have heard people discuss suicide, death, and a weird rap track a kid who graduated last year put on Spotify. Like dang, our teacher didn’t even know how to respond to that.
I really love your movie and character analyses! The Mean Girls ones were really insightful. Just a suggestion, but I think it'll be really cool if you did more videos on Heathers. All the characters are really well written and 3-dimensional. Especially Heather Duke. Whilst the other two Heathers fit into the Regina George/Mean Girl and Gretchen Wieners/Follower types, Heather Dukenis different and a video exploring that would be really interesting. Another exploring JD/Veronica and how their foils for each would also be cool.
Chandler also has a hidden depth tho. In the party scene we see how she is treated like a sex tool and how it really messes up with her self-esteem. And later we see the pictures in her locker, telling us she probably did care about Ronnie in her strange, twisted way. And Veronica is also a great character. People dismiss her so much by the majority saying "She is a good person and the murders were just a accident" or a smaller amount of folks saying "She is as bad as Jason and only denies it. Period." without anyone interested in actually exploring it.
I support you and that video could maybe make Heather Duke haters, basically most of the musical fandom realise that Heather Duke isn’t a horrible character like the musical tried to sell
Your ability to consistently produce well made and thought provoking videos astounds me! I appreciate this channel and the two of you so much. Would love a video essay on The Crown.
The Heathers is one of my favorite movies and though I noted some of the key points you made in the video. I must admit that I only looked at this movie from the surface and because of the video, I have a new appreciation for the Heathers!
I’d like to think that mean girl is more of a psychological version of Heathers (originally adapt from the book itself which given a lot of advices). the message was so subtle that the cinematography’s aesthetic and punchlines goes over people’s head. Heathers is more of a realistic, upfront yet you’ll-realized-that-life-is-like-that kind of film later in life
I like the songs in the musical, but I don’t like how they seemed to have romanticized/changed JD. I liked the little psychopath lol 🥴 And I love Barrett but movie Veronica is better too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lori Foster well it’s a bit confusing, some are, some aren’t JD in the movie is born with it, JD in the musical is made. I like musical JD more cause he feels more human but you can have your opinion.
I was already out of high school when this came out, and I found it’s point of view similar to mine. High School is as much something to get through as it is a place to grow in any great way. If you try to infuse too much meaning, it’ll bite you in the ass. If you don’t let it get to you, you can look back be grateful you didn’t buy into the crap too much.
I personally think that (in the musical at least) JD does love Veronica but, does not know how to show it because of his misconception of relationships.This is due to his parents relationship,and mothers death, because of all this he only knows how to destroy any love he has.
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ScreenPrism I swear you guys be reading my mind I was just watching this movie thinking about I wonder if there's a screenprism video and then it pops up 😀😀😀😀
I would like you guys to do an analysis of Axelrod and Rhodes from Billions". The exploration of toxic masculinity as the fuel that puts their entire lives as men and professionals.
ScreenPrism I absolutely love this channel and love what you do. I have some potential movie ideas for you all: Baby Drive (role of music in movies), Cloud Atlas, and interstellar. Just a thought and I cannot wait for your next videos!
Kimmy Schmidt!
yes and pyscho!🤣
Veronica: I WANT TO KILL HEATHER CHANDLER
JD: *climbs in* you summoned me
XD
cool girl91 “dreadful etiquette I know”
Sorry but I really had to wake you-
*great.* now I imagine JD saying that with a wholesome Viking voice
Rayyyy mystic messenger!!!!!
“It’s all about popularity. There’s no genuine concern for those that are actually suffering.” I think this explains why 13 reasons failed and why it’s another show that romanticizes suicide
13 reasons covered on someone not getting help with their depression I-
Arlyn Yes, but it handles the topic of suicide poorly. Once you die, you die. You won’t be able to see the impact of the tapes you made for the people you hate. You won’t appear as some ghost that silently views the living world. You’re just dead and you’re not coming back.
I think 13 reasons why did a fantastic job this last season.
Luna S. It’s still pretty fucked that they hired a team of psychologists to see what would be the most triggering under the premise of going to avoid it in the show, at least on screen, when they blatantly used it to show all of the bad things they could. Watch the episodes of Behind the Reasons that have the psychologists they consulted with talking about episodes with the writers and an interviewer. In almost all of them the psych says that what happened on screen was incredibly wrong and begged the viewer to avoid it. The writer just stared at the floor trying to be invisible. It’s disgusting.
best profile picture
Heathers was truly ahead of their time. It was the first teen movie to understand how insignificant high school is in the long run, in contrast to the more light and idealistic John Hughes films of that era.
Caitriona Quigley It's the anti-Grease. I think there's even a stage musical version of Heathers too.
Heather Cameron Yes, the musical version of "Heathers" is pretty good. While retaining the same black comedy that made the original so iconic, it makes Veronica and J.D. more sympathetic.
Caitriona Quigley I hate how they romantize JD and Veronica's relationship in the musical. It's abusive
Spork Person True, it does play it lighter. The movie points out how terrible that sort of relationship can be. It's best shown in the car scene after the murder of Kurt and Ram, when Veronica burns her hand with a lighter to feel something, and J. D. lights his cigarette off her hand, literally feeding off of her misery. She also realises how much better her life would have been without "cool guys" like him.
Caitriona Quigley if the musical made her realize that their relationship was bullshit then it'd be much better
Veronica's mother's answer really makes the entire message of the movie. By far the best quote of the film
Teon Quant The answer also hits like a nuclear warhead because it's 100% true.
I apologize this is random, but could you explain the message? I'm thinking it's about how the mother sees that teenagers are being treated like teenagers because they ARE, but they don't accept that and ask for acceptance into a higher status.
@Sin Bad thank you very much dear, this really helped me appreciate the mother's role in the movie more. I truly appreciate it
I totally concur with your comment! In the words of Bowling for Soup, "High School Never Ends", and adults can be just as immature, confused and insecure as they were when they attended school.
Trina Q I was just about to mention that song!
"When teenagers complain that they want to be treated like human beings, it's usually because they are being treated like human beings."
my favourite line in that entire movie
But we aren't being tra
It is a great line! Teenagers being unaware of the thing that adults already know to be true: that human beings treat each other terribly. Teens get frustrated more because they’re not used to being treated badly as high school is their introduction to adult social dynamics. They want to be treated well but don’t understand yet that that type of behavior is the norm. It isn’t just high school it’s the world. A bit of a nihilistic message for sure but there are some truths there.
I don't agree with the idea that people don't have hidden depths. Heather C certainly had hidden depths shown in her private moment in the bathroom when she spits water at herself, she despises herself and shows symptoms of depression, there was an element of truth in her over dramatic suicide note, I think the satirical part came from how everyone made her death about themselves.
And how people are so willing to feel bad after somebody has already killed themselves, but don't do anything for teens who are still struggling to stay alive. Like, Martha attempted suicide, but no one cared besides a few people because she didn't actually die and because she was unpopular compared to Heather.
Also, I think it was showing how even though Martha could die in the near future, but there was still a chance to save her, society didn't care also because people are taught that severe depression and suicidal tendencies in teens is normal and even poke fun at it instead of going, "Hey, maybe there's an actual problem here and they're not just being 'dumb dramatic teenagers'..."
I agree. Even Heather M. had depth. Her bulimia was brushed off as a weakness since the beginning. She didn't try to commit suicide as a trend either, but no one except Veronica bothered to notice.
@@nailahhuq1238 *Heather Duke was the one with bulimia. Also, Heather McNamara does say to Veronica that she'd jump off a bridge if everyone else did.
See I was just gonna mention something similar to this comment but you explained it SO much better!!!
R_Panda For all we know, that might just be part of their show they put on to gain attention from fellow peers and adults alike.
I always found it noteworthy that once Heather C died, it was a beautiful tragedy, but when Heather M inadvertently spoke out about her current troubles and worries, she was generally unaknowledged except to be made fun of.
Veronica even states "she knows that we listen to this show". Heather M knew what she was doing, more than just venting. She was asking her friends for help and support. Just to be called a crybaby. Even within the popular crowd, she isn't safe
Heartbreaking
This might be over a year old but THIS. MacNamara, even if she didn't do it on purpose, tried to get help from her friends. She didn't pick up the radio show by chance. Either this is the only one she knows of or she WANTED her friends to hear her on the very slim chance they were listening and recognized her. The latter is the most likely as Veronica and Duke are close and hang out often. Them listening to it is at least a weekly activity they both do. MacNamara picked THAT specific day on accident? No way, no day.
Part of her wanted this. And the rest knew what would happen: none of them are surprised by what happened. She then goes back to hanging out with Duke. It's just the way their friendship is. She bullied Duke and Duke finally got to bully her back. It also seemed like she was closer to Chandler than to Duke (obviously because she made fun of her and enabled Chandler) and to Veronica (the movie makes a point of showing whom she's close to and MacNamara is barely mentioned). She lost her friend. Then her sort-of boyfriend who raped her multiple times and she was lead to believe he didn't even like her/preferred men. Her place in the friend group gets lower, she has personal stuff going on, she gets mocked and was led to believe that suicide was cool and what popular people do. She's a follower. Of course she would follow "Chandler's" lead even in death. It doesn't help that her note has similarities with her current situation.
So the whole movie is her getting beaten up by the plot. Before the events, she was living with some sort of cluelessness. She was a bit of touch with reality and it's not until the second murders that it all comes crashing on her. (She wasn't too bothered by Chandler's death and more than willing to go do some interviews. Though she was still a bit detached when making that call to the radio show. Her priorities were also screwed up which is really sad. She genuinely believes that her math grades and being a cheerleader were more important than her friend and sort-of bf being alive). MacNamara exists to show the impact of everything that happened and the consequences of it all and thus to move the plot so she isn't really developed (even in the first drafts) but when you think about it, it's really sad even when she doesn't think so.
Also not so fun fact, she was supposed to wear green once Duke became the queen bee. MacNamara became the punching ball.
Great points. And, she had a legit eating disorder, which shows even more how much a victim of her circumstances she really was. Seems she might have been the only “Heather” with somewhat of a heart?
Heather's took high school nihilism to a new level for me, I love it more knowing that it influenced Mean Girls.
Don't Subscribe. I Don't Need Subscribers. Oof then you don’t seem to have a good taste in film and media lol
Don't Subscribe. I Don't Need Subscribers. Then that’s your opinion tho, most people don’t hate the 80s lmao
Don't Subscribe. I Don't Need Subscribers., the point of the film was to show the ignorance of high school...
@@Quaronna They're both iconic. I don't know what you're talking about.
@President Trump With A Small Loan of A Million Subs
How can you hate a decade??? You hate the style, the music, the media, sure, but the decade??
Christian Slater would make an interesting Joker
Luke Lauchle omg this is somethin* I never thought I’d before. I’d love to see that. SNL ARE YOU LISTENING
*something
Samantha Victoria uyu
Fun fact: Christian Slater’s performance was inspired by Jack Nicholson’s in The Shining
Whenever I watch Heather's I'd think the same thing, and then finding out he was imitating Jack Nicholson I thought huh I guess he was playing the Joker all along lol
I didn't knew how much I wanted a video essay about Heathers until I saw this. Really glad this channel made it.
I may be 3 years late, but I won't let this comment without replies
Moby Dick was supposed to be the Catcher in the Rye but they couldn't get the rights, I feel Moby Dick is funnier though. Less typical high school literature angst more eclectic just like the film itself.
_The Catcher in the Rye_ would be too easy. It's already about teen angst. Now, finding pull quotes from _Moby Dick_ that are germane to a teen suicide - that's talent.
LifeIsABeach3210 Right on!
LifeIsABeach3210 fun fact: I'm pretty sure they couldn't get movie rights for Catcher In the Rye because in the book Holden talks about his disdain for movies and hollywood.
I love Catcher in the Rye! You’re right though it would have been too obvious and more “a very special episode” than the satire that is Heathers
It’s actually better that they choose Moby Dick
Great analysis. I particularly loved the point about Betty vs. Martha...I never thought about that. Betty may be nicer than the Heathers, but she isn't fundamentally any different from them. I don't see _her_ reaching out to Martha either. Only Veronica does.
And also: Betty is pretty and thin, if she had a makeover, she'd look like a Heather while Martha would be an outcast no matter how stylish she is.
The contrast between Betty and Martha is also the contrast between "nice" and "good". Betty is more...socially adept, more intelligent, more emotionally intelligent. But this does not translate into morality, as she is still more concerned with status. Martha maybe socially inept, but she is more withdrawn and introspective, and sees status as utterly empty. Martha is thus treated with contempt, while Betty is held up as a paragon. @@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254
It’s interesting that the two were combined into one character in the musical
@@notaninstrument7707 yeah, I kind of wish they hadn't been because they really represented two sides.
@jeremyud, the musical combined them because they wanted Veronica to have a connection to the other end of the high school spectrum. It made her a more in-depth, relatable character. It was smart of the musical to combine them because we get to know her better.
"DID NOT"
"DID TOO"
"DID NOT"
"DID NOT DID NOT DID NOT DID NOT DID NOT"
"DID TOO-"
"MARY HAD A LITTLE LAMB LITTLE LAMB LITTLE LAMB LALALALALALALALA"
that is my favorite scene 🚫🧢
Young love
NO WAY?!!
It just shows they are so childish while trying to be the God, deciding who lives and who dies. It is so funny.
lol
Martha is so pure, like I'll die from how adorable she is.
SAME
I agree, Martha is my favourite character in both the movie and the musical. "In a world full of Heathers, be a Martha"!💖😻
She is the most innocent person
And to think that in one of the alternate endings she killed Veronica!
@@shifra1967 wait a damn minute- WHAT😀
Unfortunately the series remake doesn't seem to understand what made the original work.
They totally demolished Heather concept
Ahhh! Don't mention that trash fire of 💩.
Would've been nice if Veronica were black and the Heather Duke was Asian
@@melodysafo5437 You might not want a murderer to be POC and the bullied girl who becomes a huge bitch and bully another POC. And that's just talking about what the movie showed. In the TV show Veronica CANNOT be a POC. Like... no it goes against most of her character and one of the points of the show.
"I Just killed my best friend & worst enemy" Very!
*same difference*
I think the fact that there is no profound takeaway is what I like so much about this film. There's no preciousness about it. I love John Hughes' movies, and it's easy to almost confuse this as a John Hughes movie because of the young talent and the era. But unlike John Hughes' movies, Heathers doesn't tie anything everything up with a neat little bow. It's refreshing.
Not getting pretentious is indeed good for this kind of drama
English teachers are quaking
@callmecatalyst oh my gosh yes! Like freaking Jake Ryan was considered a heartthrob but he's actually a crappy boyfriend
Finally someone makes a video analysing one of my favourite movies ever
Same
i know, right?
It's interesting how the musical adaptation of Heathers tells the same story, but from a totally different worldview.
The movie has a somewhat misanthropic view of humanity, viewing society as evil because people are basically evil.
The musical however is less cynical and more hopeful, despite being just as dark, viewing people as products of a shitty environment.
As a result, many of the same scenes and characters take on a more tragic air. JD for example still does the same things, but with different motivations. In the movie, he was just a violent sociopath using the pretence of getting back at bullies to lash out. In the musical however, he really does seem disgusted by the way society elevates bullies and devalues their victims. And notably, he was originally more annoyed than upset upon thinking Veronica killed herself; whereas in the adaptation, he's genuinely heartbroken.
Some would say this is all just a case of "softening the edges" of the original story, but I see it more as recontextualising the story with a different ethos in mind - less misanthropic and more sociological.
The musical romanticized the film.
musicaltheatergeek79
The original movie is closer to a (capital-r) Romantic sensibility than the musical is, given its bleak outlook on modern society.
The musical has more of an Enlightenment view of things. It opens with a song where Veronica longs for how things used to be in early childhood, before social hierarchies moulded kids into ruthless machines seeking power and status. And it ends with the call to try to achieve something resembling that again, even if "I can't promise no more Heathers".
It hints at a sort of cautious hopefulness.
Eoin O'Connor Agree completely. I was trying to pinpoint why, after seeing the musical, the movie became slightly more off-putting to me than it did before. But you got it.
IMO the musical is actually more realistic than the movie, and that is _because of_ rather than in spite of it's greater optimism and more sympathetic portrayal of the cast. I don't think there's a single person who can say their teen years were squeaky clean. But while high school is awful and can be unnecessarily stressful due to our own stupidity, it doesn't make us all inherently evil.
Everyone is only ever trying to make their lives bearable. Sometimes we're so desperate to do that we hurt others who can even conceivably get in our way-intentionally or no. I especially like that the speaker of the video mentioned the role of dismissive adults in the story; the lackluster support adults may give teenagers only perpetuates that cycle. Once we get out of high school and into college and then out of college, we become "free". We begin to think of ourselves as enlightened, more intelligent, and above the inanity and "nonsense" of teen drama when we're _not_.
It's almost a kind of superiority-inferiority complex, the extent to which elders will alienate youths because their problems are just sooooo trivial, supposedly, compared to the trials of the "real world."
This aloofness and sheer lack of empathy exacerbates the frustrations of kids who are just in need of guidance as we once were. They're navigating their own chaos without a compass, which results that range from "mild anxiety/loneliness from need of peer acceptance" to "literal fucking murder." Even when adults _do_ try to help youths, it often comes across as controlling, condescending and/or wildly out of touch-Ms. Fleming comes to mind-all due to the fact that, while they may treat teens as _human_, they refuse to treat them as _equals_.
Both the movie and the musical portray this issue pretty clearly, but I appreciate that the latter had a more objective take. You can tell that Veronica's parents and the school faculty truly _want_ to understand their kids, but notice how they never get past _claiming_ they do or treating Heather's apparent _suicide_ as a book they can analyze. Whilst in the movie, basically the only redeemable characters are Veronica, Betty/Martha, and Heather McNamara. I almost included JD, but he... kinda... well, tried to kill everyone. And died.
*IMO the musical is actually more realistic than the movie,*
The movie was never meant to be realistic; it's satire.
I can't be the only one who sees this film not only as a sharp satire at not only society's saccarine, banal view of teenagers as exemplified in films like Pretty in Pink, Back to the Future, and so on, but also as a scathing critique of the sunshiney, vapid, yuppie, reactionary materialism of the Reagan years. This is the equivalent of someone flipping over a table and decrying the bullshit that had invaded the ethos of America. Not enough art of the time recognized the absurdity of its era, but Heathers did, and I applaud it.
I always read it that way too - the dark side of that consumer capitalist upper-middle class, self destructing through the kids they had (mis)raised. Being a late GenXer myself, who lived her high school years through the transition from the "Heathers" years to the "Grunge" 90's, I recognised so much vital truth in Heathers, that seemed to be seriously lacking elsewhere.
Plus it actually flopped when it first came out in 1989 and it didn't find its strong following until it was on video and cable channels like HBO and Showtime in the early 90s. Veronica would have fit perfectly in the Nirvana era!!
And I find the irony delicious that my favourite role-model as a pre-teen was Winnona Ryder's previous character in Beetlejuice. I saw that movie when it came out, and instantly recognised who I was going to be in a few years. Looking back, I find that both deeply sad and hilarious at the same time.
@@ACETYGRA It did get good reviews when it first came out, though. I remember a review of it in my local paper the day it came out and I went to see it the next day. Classic.
absolutely agree with you
I just realized, the priest in Heather Chandler’s funeral is also Otho from Beetlejuice. Just thought I’d point that out.
I'm not the only one who noticed!!!!
huh, no wonder he looked familiar
I just watched Beetlejuice for the first time YESTERDAY 😮
I like to pretend that is Otho he just got a new job as a priest. Mostly because the priest's personality seems very similar to Otho
Cristian Slater has been channeling Jack Nickolson for his entire career.
zucchinigreen shsjdkkf
Damn, Heathers really pulled a ‘we live in a society’ before joker did
"I love my dead, gay son!" The really messed up truth in that line is that if Kurt and Ram were really gay, and they had come out, especially then, suicide might have been the only way for their parents to put the homosexuality aside, and accept them. It's moments like that which truly contrast the false choice of someone choosing to be gay or straight, with the real choice of whether you'd rather have a gay child, or a dead child (as the result of your own homophobic prejudice). A gay person only has three choices: lie, and conform to society, thereby opening the potential to waste not only your life, but some poor girl's life; be miserable, and alone; or have some fucking integrity, and be honest, while risking misery for a chance at happiness. Who the fuck cares if a parent realizes that they'd rather their son be gay, only after they've had to bury them? Why did it take the sacrifice of a life? My dad still doesn't accept that being gay is normal, and involuntary. He just realized that having a gay son was better than going through life having to deal with the guilt that he'd have if I had died when I tried to overdose, and that's not exactly a huge win for the gay community, and was never my intention when I did try to kill myself. It's been kind of a shitty inroad to rebuilding some kind of relationship with him that didn't involve yelling and crying. It's like if you were trying to get to Hawaii, but got lost, and ended up in Salt Lake City. It's beautiful, but it isn't really what you were looking for, and you can settle for it. Nobody should get a pat on the back for hating who their child is until it's too late to matter. Because at the end of the day both the cause of the event, and the reaction to the event are selfish.
JD says at the double funeral something like "how would he feel about a limp wrist with a pulse?" Its a throw away line but there was a lot of truth there
Harper Blanks I didn’t understand what JD meant when he was saying that, can you explain?
@@cherrycola.6.6.6 basically, "limp wrist" is slang for gay. JD is saying that despite the dad's show of grief, and support for gay people, the only reason for his change of attitude is that his son supposedly killed himself because of the "fact" that he was gay. In other words, had the pair actually been lovers, they would have been rejected by not just their parents, but the whole community.
@@chrisserrific exactly. Thank you.
What do you mean “choosing to be gay or straight” it’s not a choice
the heathers remake show could have been such a fantastically timed thing, seeing as how it shows the dangers of romanticising suicide - something our society could use with shows like 13 rw being hugely popular,... unfortunately they didnt execute it well at all imo. gr8 vid!
Mike Ochondria or even the...what I call psudeo sympathy that adults have for tennagers when they are going through the trails of being a teenager
And that's where we know Paramount didn't reserve brain tumors for breakfast only.
Setting it in the modern era? Fine.
Casting minorities, the most bullied minority even in today's high schools, as the Heathers? WTF???
Completely missing the point of the film coupled with bad writing, editing and acting?
No wonder the TV series was cancelled right after an espisode or two.
I admit, the musical is not as dark as the movie but at least it's still as morbid and manages to get close to the mark.
Paramount wasted a great opportunity to make a series that can be pitted against shows like 13 RW and Riverdale by pointing out their bullshit.
Though the first episode was supposed to be available, the Parkland shooting caused the initial delay of the premier. They ought to just either go forward with their season 2 idea (each season = seperate story) or throw in the towel.
Alex Alson the series misses the point because the guy behind the whole thing entirely missed the point
He doesn't seem to understand privilege - maybe because he always had it. Instead he sees traditional privilege being eaten into by pc culture and the alleged sjw movement as discrimination. That there would be consequences for wearing a racist T-shirt or fat shaming is seen as bullying in itself. It's tone deaf and and shallow - a Heathers flipped ass over tit to appeal to the "all lives matter" crowd. Unfortunately, they saw trailers featuring a gender queer teen and an angry big girl and dismissed it as "feminazi" or "SJW" propaganda (because idiots gonna idiot) so they didn't watch it either. How this lunatic rendition of Heathers even got off the page is a mystery.
“we live in a society” the movie
I wrote a paper about the movie in high school and I got an A!
Theatre Geek Congratulations!🤗 What was the topic of your paper?
Theatre Geek Yay, you! That is brilliant.
Sorry I imagine the whole essay being, "Heathers is brilliant because it shows us that high school is shitty and most teenagers are c*nts." And the teacher was like "Yeah kid! Tell me about it. This place is pure hell. You get an A!"
Heather Cameron 😂😂😂
I feel me may be related.
This video is fabulous, and really goes deep into one of my favourite films of all time. And as a side note: Christian Slater's performance hit me right in my soul. He was perfect for this role.
christian slater creeped me out from the very beginning but somehow at the end i thought he was hot, so in a way this movie did kind of romanticize his role in the same way the writers of the show “you” romanticized joe goldberg. the audience knows it isn’t right and that the bad guy is a sociopath but there’s a charming element that makes them fall anyway i think
@@zoekayt1006 This is a late reply but I found him impossible to find attractive the second he said "greetings and salutations". It's a no from me.
zoe kayt somehow, i watched him throughout the entire movie but not til the end did i think he was so hot. like i find him so attractive now.
lol the moment he pulled out a gun in the cafeteria is when I thought this guy is a red flag 😂
YES. This movie is my life, I love the dark humor, the drama, the outfits, the message....
And this is why I'm so pissed at the reboot.
Original Heathers said that we need to take teen problems and learn, to worry about them. Heathers 2018 says "hey, I'm an angsty 50 year old man and I don't like youth. I'm gonna go to tumblr to search for funny worlds like queer or asian". If you ask me, Heathers 2018 should be the new Illegal Heathers
Chía CrashToons to be fair, the world was acting like tumblr
Illegal heathers is better than the reboot
I have not seen the reboot, but from reviews on TH-cam and external websites it seems like a terrible series.
@@nyxssecondemail7065 It's actually pretty good ! Close to the movie but with its own take. It does follow the first ideas for the movie so it's darker and closer to what Heathers would have been if they had budget and an open minded company.
Sadly most reviews were made before the full series was aired and very few are actually about the pilot and not the teasers...
Gee, so very. I thought the color code for the Heather and Veronica was interesting too. Veronica representing peace by wearing blue and preventing an actual teen suicide. Heather duke wearing green and representing resilience and greed by surviving cruelty as shown in the croquet game and finally becoming "queen" Heather Chandler and gaining strength in red. Don't forget Heather McNamara wearing yellow that ironically represents prosperity. JD obviously wearing black and being consumed with the idea of power and chaos. Betty wearing pink while nursing societies rules. And lastly the final scene where peace[Veronica] stands on strength[the red carpet].
Waters didn't make up slang to avoid dating his film. He took slang from the teens he met working as a camp counselor.
Those teens must have their own lingo then because most of those expressions sound made up
@@christmastiger i've literally never heard about any of them before watching the movie lol
They were pranking him, some old guy hanging around trying to get in on the lingo so they're like "you know what would be funny?" and just start making stuff up
I know this movie still has a cult following but I wish it was as resonant as John Hughes' films. It's soo good, and watching this after I forced myself to sit through a few modern teen movies on Netflix makes the pain even more acute (mind you I'm 28 so I'm not the target audience anymore, but still). Heathers was a remarkable film for, as you said, being willing to "go there" with an extraordinarily dark storyline for a teen film, but it's such a good reminder that teen movies don't need to be stupid, lazy, and reliant on tired old stereotypes.
Megan h what is a “cult following”? like in movie themes
sstrómgren sorta like a major amount of people to this day really loving a movie/show
cap from atlanta ohh, thanks
I use Martha's "I'd like that" meme all the time when someone asks me if I want to do something.
Robert Jones Big fun.
Heather Cameron
the fOLKS ARE GOOOOONEEE IT'S TIME FOR BIG FUN (BIG FUN) UP TILL DAWN HAVING SOME BIG FUN (BIG FUN)
Teenage MEMES (don't do it)
Heathers showed us that high school is just as dark as the real world. No High School Musical, no Saved by the Bell, no Grease, no Mean Girls. Some of the hardest memories for me came from high school. Heathers was probably the first high school movie to not have romanticism. It is as if Stanley Kubrick had directed a John Hughes film.
Fun Fact: Kubrick was offered to direct this film but turned it down.
I'm not from America so I don't know how the schools there work but comin' from Australia, Summer Heights High was as racist as the real world for me, I was an ethnic teen that related to the troubles and troublesome attitude from that.
I think it’s interesting how heathers plays out every time a rapper or celebrity dies. we ignore anything atrocious they did during their life because they were killed
I am so fucking glad I'm not the only one to compare 13 Reasons/Heathers in relation to each other.
13rw is trash
There was a teacher suicide in my school over the summer. Tons of people hated him and thought that he was some sort of creep. When he killed him self, everyone was talking about how great he was and that he was one of the best teachers at my high school. Now he’s as forgotten as Connor Murphy was at one point in Dear Evan Hansen. His room is now retired and they have photos of him on his door. It pissed me off how people talked about him like he was their friend when they all (including me) hated him
To me, one of the most important aspects of Heathers was stated outright in the musical version when Heather Chandler ('s spirit) tells Veronica "this is their big secret, Veronica: the adults are powerless" after Miss Fleming turns the Westerburg "suicides" into a spectacle for herself. I feel it is way more than just a throwaway line, because really, there is so much in this movie that could have been avoided if the adults ever actually did anything. Think of how different it would've have been if Big Bud Dean had bothered with his son's mental and emotional state after witnessing his mother commit suicide (hell, musical!JD outright calls his father semi psychotic), or if Miss Fleming had actually been as experienced as she prided herself on being and realized her students were depressed and suicidal and had actually been there for them rather than conduct a televised assembly for attention, or if Veronica's parents had noticed she wasn't acting like herself to the point that she was able to hide the fact that she was involved in THREE murders, and when they believed she was suicidal (while thinking that three of her classmates had killed themselves and one had attempted it as well), they didn't seem nearly as concerned as they should have been. A lot of the events in Heathers happen because the adults ARE powerless, despite what they present themselves as and Heather's following line about "They can't help us. Nobody can help us. We're alone in the ocean" is sadly all too accurate when tied into the plot, because not a single adult ever stopped patronizing those teenagers enough to be helpful in any way.
But JD's god is not love.
It's 7-11 Slurpees
Freeze your brain
Freeze Your BRAAAAAAAAAAAIN!!!
Suck that straw, get lost in the pain!
Happiness comes when everything numbs
Who needs cocaine
freeze your brain
Freeze your brain...
J. D: Care for a hit?
Veronica: Does your mommy know you eat all that crap?
J. D: Not anymore.
@Veronica Schuyler We lived halfway normal. Now it's just me and my dad, we're less formal.
MY EDGES ARE SNATCHED! COME THRU WITH THAT COMMENTARY SIS!
chilling with court she really,,,did that
jesus christ
When you look at Heathers like a modern AU of Lord Of the Flies, everything starts to make a lot more sense.
that’s exactly what I was thinking! such similar concepts. Lord of the Flies is a little more dated though, and considering who it was written by at that time period, it doesn’t hold up as well as heathers. it’s a classic, but I think heathers gives the message a little bit better.
I know JD is a sociopathic murderer, but the understanding that he had of things is so beyond his years. The blind spot that society has with teenagers allowed him to get away with his actions and he truly understood how adults and young children view teenagers as freaks of nature. Personally, I think JD was the best developed character of the film, and one of the smartest.
Fascinating and enlightening as always! I'm curious to know your take on the Musical and/or the musical in contrast to the film.
You highlighted looking past the surface for something that may not be there, which I find funny/ironic because the musical makes JD much more sympathetic. But with the knowledge gained from your videonid say he's not any more human for it. While there isn't much to redeem him in the original, he is still very human. That's a testament to the writing.
Keep doing what you're doing! Ive had my notifications on for you for months!
When Veronica fakes suicide
Play jd: oh my god
Movie jd: I was gonna kill ya anyways
I didn't watch The Heathers until I was 25 (like a year ago), and now it is one of my absolute favorite movies. The ending might be one of my all-time favorites. The moment I heard Martha's voice I just felt so calm and happy. I never felt as much hope and happiness as I did that at moment. I actually teared up, and I still do everytime to this day. Such a masterpiece.
When I saw this, I genuinely gasped, and now my parents are concerned. I've been waiting for this video. Thank you, ladies!
THANK YOU for showing why a movie like this is truthful and a show like 13 Reasons Why isn't!
I love the fact that Heathers is so upfront with its message. It’s so upfront, in fact, that you literally over analyze it and miss the point completely. That’s real story telling if you ask me
Martha deserves the best in this freaking life, she's too pure, we've gotta protect her at all costs!
What pisses me off is that people say shit like “oh heather M is such a cinnamon roll!”, Even when she volunteered Veronica for date rape and watched as her friends bullied others without caring enough to stop it, which just proves the point that when people commit suicide, they are romanticized and loved even if they were terrible.
Right? and she wasn’t close to a cinnamon roll,none of the Heathers were, but people who think that most of them have only watched the musical and I believe the musical totally missed the point of the movie, trying to give depth to characters like JD making him more redeemable and making Duke a straight bitch literally Dukes personality in the musical is so different from the movie, they just wanted a character that the audience could hate that wasn’t JD making people justify a psychotic guy and they misunderstood that Heather McNamara wasn’t depressed or even close I think the reason she tried to kill herself was because everyone was doing it and it’s stated in the line when Veronica asks her “if everyone jumped of a bridge would you?” McNamara replied by saying “probably” which shows how the despair of the moment drove her to do what everybody else was doing, but the musical wanted to give a character a depth that wasn’t there which is ironic cause that’s just what the movie is making fun of
the heathers are all perfect examples of “morally gray” characters. there are definitely sympathetic and realistic aspects to them (heather chandler was hinted to have some kind of self hatred, heather duke was constantly shunned by her friends, heather mcnamara was suicidal), but none of them are necessarily “good people” either. i’d say even veronica, the “hero” of the story, could be called morally gray too. her first response to heather’s death was that she wouldn’t be able to go to the prestigious college she wanted to after being convicted of murder. even after the initial shock, she’s relatively indifferent about the deaths, even joking with JD about them from time to time. it’s what distinguishes the characters from the common stereotypical teenagers of 80s movies.
4:12
Veronica: I WANT TO KILL
JD: HAVE I BEEN SUMMONED!??!?!?!
Every place has "Heathers" no matter if you're going to start high school or are teaching at a grad school.
True true
Well, maybe is bcs I live in other country but I never really found a “Heather”, not even in High School, or maybe I never noticed xd
Vika Blaire I volunteered at riding for the disabled with other teen girls. We even had heathers there. 😂
Hyunjin’s Bread how... is that possible?! You’ve never known a mean girl? Genuinely interested!
Fleurs Sv when I was in elementary school I was really bullied but not from the typical “mean girls” especially bcs we were children, but no, in my high school it didn’t even exist the “popular” ones or the “nerd” ones or anything like that, we were all equal. There were some people that didn’t get along but in a normal way (? But like I said I live in a 3rd world country totally different from USA, so maybe is a cultural thing too. Also I think in private high schools in my country are girls like that but in public school not at all, like, we poor kids don’t care about that things (? XD I actually always get along with everyone in my class, even if just a few were my friends. And smart people with good grades were respected, I even remember when we were planning skipping class we consult first with the smartest boy in the class (also my crush xd) and he didn’t even care, we were so confused xd
"death makes saints of people."
Great analysis! This is one of my favorite movies so thanks for this video.
This just makes me love Heathers even more! Classic black comedy.
This movie helped me get over my horrible time in highschool. Most movies the outcast ends up fitting in. I didn't want to fit in, I wanted revenge. Vicariously, this movie gave it to me.
I was the one that tried suicide. Damn near did, but luckily I was found in time. Ledyard CT 35 years ago, high school was full of entitled kids. If you didn't match, you will be reminded of it every moment. And once you've been outted, it only gets worse.
I love this movie at the first time I saw it. I rewound it and watched it again. Today, I've seen it so many times. But in the last 10 years, I think I found peace. It's still a lovely romp in dark comedy.
As for bullying, don't put up with it for a moment. It will erode your self-confidence and, it will take a while to shake off. If you feel in any way that you want to harm yourself please reach out. "Don't Do It"
So THAT'S what the Ashleys in Recess were a reference to...
"Corn nuts."
Not all high school are depressing but there are times that school just really drains you out and you go through some deep shit about yourself and your environment. Not all the time high school is great. Anyways, great video on Heathers!
Everytime I see a 80s high school flick, I'm reminded of just how different my high school days were.
High School wasn't society. High School was a job. You go in, punch in your hours, do the work, have some coworkers you chatted with during lunch, and that was it. There was no recess anymore. No parties. No events outside of sports and that only happened during the fall when the weather was nice enough for it. School wasn't something you lived in, it was something you worked in. Your teachers were your bosses. Some were nice, some were irritating.
There was none of this caste system social hierarchies. Maybe it was because our entire grade fit inside 2 classrooms at most (and even then, but senior year it was a single class max) so maybe we just didn't have enough people to break into castes, but even then, we didn't even really have the time to form cliques outside of breakfast and afterschool clubs. And people barely paid attention to who was what club. (Cheerleaders only wore their uniforms before a game, and even then you could never remember who was or wasn't one until they all started wearing the outfit.
Highschool was the same for me. Actually I have nice memories about highschool but awful ones of elementary school lmao
I watched this movie cuz of Winona
i'm only fifteen and had a really difficult time understanding the message of the movie, this video definitely helped a lot. As someone who's still in high school, heathers opened my eyes, the truth is people are cruel and only care about what will boost their social status; true suffering gets overlooked. reading through these comments i can't help but feel jealous at how incredibly intelligent you all are- you figured out so many different morals and takeaways from this film, and good god the vocabulary in some of yall is immaculate! i need to get out my dictionary 😂 heathers is truly a masterpiece i think ill always have trouble completely deciphering but maybe that's the goal. there doesn't have to always be some deep rooted meaning in everything.
This is one of the better video essays I’ve actually seen of Heathers, I love the detail and the reference
This is real af, I went to a school where kids killed themselves. Some of them were decent kids. But no matter who they really were, everybody romanticized their interactions and relationships with them to the point where they convinced themselves that these people were better than life itself.
why can i quote the entire movie
I remember seeing Phil Lewis (Mr. Moseby) in _Heathers_ for the first time. I was *shook* to say the least. Great analysis, by the way.
I'm so, SO glad you covered Heathers! This is the one timeless classic I think people are not discussing enough. Great video as always, I love you guys
I agree about how significant it is for Veronica to go off with Martha, but I like to think that her and Betty would be friends again.
Everyone being like “omg it’s so different from the musical 😆” like yeah obviously, it’s called an adaption for a reason
You know what? I have been hearing about this movie hear and there in various movie reviews for years... And this review was the last straw.
I stopped about 3 minutes into this video and stopped of to wTch "Heathers" on Netflix.
It was excellent!
Also, it's the kind of movie perfect for film study class. 👌
im writing a modern dark teen comedy but idk if any of this is even going to push through.. but one can dream :--)
Isabela Louise hey me too! Good luck
That sounds so cool is it going to be an actual book or an online thing?If it’s anything similarish to heathers I’d love to read it,
Mmmmm, 1988 Christian Slater. 🔥🔥
Veronica: Dear diary,
Me: I BELIEVE I AM A GOOD PERSON!
I believe that good in everyone
@@justintime3656 but i'm here we are! first day of senior year!
@@hamiltonlover-uu1vd And, I look around at these kids I've known my whole life and I ask myself... what happened?
Watching Heather N1 joke about brain tumor is always uncomfortable for me to see because the actress actually died from brain tumor.
Yup
Mr. Robot and Joyce, wow
I’m not a heather, im not a Veronica, but I want a hot guy like Jason that is murder free.
Real
Wonderful! I just watched the movie--so dark and violent it was hard to watch at times. This is a perfect video for me to show friends to convince them they ought to watch Heathers too! And the link to Mean Girls, fetch looking to be for them what very was for Heathers? Perfect!
I didn't know I wanted this until I had it. Though I am surprised you didn't reference the musical
Ashleigh Tompkins It tells a lot about the themes that they can be portrayed in song but still so hard hitting. Kinda expected it to come up.
Amy Clarke And still be oddly darkly funny at the same time
I seriously overlooked this film. This is a fantastic analysis
I was going to type a comment disagreeing with this video, but then I remembered something a classmate of mine said when we were talking about college application essays earlier this year and were told to write what makes us unique: “I don’t have anything unique about me, I just try to be like everyone else.” Which is probably the saddest thing I have every heard anyone say in a high school setting, and I have heard people discuss suicide, death, and a weird rap track a kid who graduated last year put on Spotify. Like dang, our teacher didn’t even know how to respond to that.
“I got you into a Remington party....and what’s my thanks? It’s on the hallway carpet! I got paid in puke!”
“Lick it up baby! Lick. It. Up.”
I really love your movie and character analyses! The Mean Girls ones were really insightful. Just a suggestion, but I think it'll be really cool if you did more videos on Heathers. All the characters are really well written and 3-dimensional. Especially Heather Duke. Whilst the other two Heathers fit into the Regina George/Mean Girl and Gretchen Wieners/Follower types, Heather Dukenis different and a video exploring that would be really interesting. Another exploring JD/Veronica and how their foils for each would also be cool.
Chandler also has a hidden depth tho. In the party scene we see how she is treated like a sex tool and how it really messes up with her self-esteem. And later we see the pictures in her locker, telling us she probably did care about Ronnie in her strange, twisted way.
And Veronica is also a great character. People dismiss her so much by the majority saying "She is a good person and the murders were just a accident" or a smaller amount of folks saying "She is as bad as Jason and only denies it. Period." without anyone interested in actually exploring it.
I support you and that video could maybe make Heather Duke haters, basically most of the musical fandom realise that Heather Duke isn’t a horrible character like the musical tried to sell
Your ability to consistently produce well made and thought provoking videos astounds me! I appreciate this channel and the two of you so much. Would love a video essay on The Crown.
Can’t believe you had her mums little speech without including the “now stand up straight”; that absolutely made it for me
The Heathers is one of my favorite movies and though I noted some of the key points you made in the video. I must admit that I only looked at this movie from the surface and because of the video, I have a new appreciation for the Heathers!
Yes! A video analysis on Heathers, love it! ❤️❤️❤️
This is why it's my favourite film
ashton vickers completely agree
Yeah me too
I always knew Mean Girls was like a new millenium version of The Heathers! Except Mean Girls is less dark. I love them both though!
I’d like to think that mean girl is more of a psychological version of Heathers (originally adapt from the book itself which given a lot of advices). the message was so subtle that the cinematography’s aesthetic and punchlines goes over people’s head. Heathers is more of a realistic, upfront yet you’ll-realized-that-life-is-like-that kind of film later in life
"The extreme always seems to make an impression."
So what's a Baudelaire quoting badass like you doing in Sherwood, Ohio?
I like the songs in the musical, but I don’t like how they seemed to have romanticized/changed JD. I liked the little psychopath lol 🥴
And I love Barrett but movie Veronica is better too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Imani Lloyd He’s humanised not romanticised in the musical. Nobody is born with Antisocial Personality Disorder.
@@literallygaston2489 some people genuinely are lol
Lori Foster well it’s a bit confusing, some are, some aren’t JD in the movie is born with it, JD in the musical is made. I like musical JD more cause he feels more human but you can have your opinion.
So Jason Dean is basically a teen Jack Torrence. That makes sense.
The musical is so different, it’s interesting to see how different the characters are .
BABY WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR, WELCOME TO MY CANDY STOREEEEEEE!
SHUT UP HEATHER
WELCOME TO MY CANDY STOoOoOoOoOOOOOOOOOoOOooOOOOooooORE!
TIME FOR YOU TO PROVE YOU'RE NOT A LOSER ANYMORE SO STEP INTO MY CANDY STOOORE
@@whocares7992 GUYS FALL AT YOUR FEET pay the check help you cheat! all you have to do say goodby to shamuU
Hate to be that one person but they don’t say baby they say honey...
I was already out of high school when this came out, and I found it’s point of view similar to mine. High School is as much something to get through as it is a place to grow in any great way. If you try to infuse too much meaning, it’ll bite you in the ass. If you don’t let it get to you, you can look back be grateful you didn’t buy into the crap too much.
I MADE THIS EXACT ARGUMENT ABOUT HEATHERS TO CRITICIZE 13RW A FEW DAYS AGO AAAAA I'm so glad someone else draws the parallel
This video was so good! It's very satisfying seeing how you guys understood and explained so well the messages and themes from Heathers. I loved it!
I have been waiting for this since forever and I am not disappointed 💙💙💙💙💙
"You look like hell!"
"Yeah? I just got back."
I personally think that (in the musical at least) JD does love Veronica but, does not know how to show it because of his misconception of relationships.This is due to his parents relationship,and mothers death, because of all this he only knows how to destroy any love he has.