@@lg9839 I pay £13.50 for every 1,000 miles and there is no maintenance (even if there was it is cheaper). So no, they’re not more expensive to run. Depreciation is also significantly lower than petrol/diesel so you literally couldn’t by more wrong with that statement. As for gas etc, who brought that up? What’s that got to do with winter range? Electric has gone up a lot, but so has petrol! So 🤷♂️
@@lg9839 £13.50 will get roughly 100 miles in ICE. Even using your figures, that’s still massively cheaper than petrol! You said the opposite at the start of this thread, electric was more expensive??? There is no scheduled service needed on my EV. Of course there’s tyres etc but overall, maintenance is far cheaper than ICE, just look at manufacturers service costs. The evidence is everywhere! So again, remind me how they’re more expensive to run?
@@ElectricVehicleMan although L G is wrong, I think Tesla isn’t doing themselves a favor telling people that the cars are maintenance free. You have a 12v Battery to check, you have fluids to check, you have an interior air filter that needs replacing now and then, you have brake pads and disks that also need checking and replacing, and I could Extend that list even more. Yes the list is shorter than the list of an ICE, but telling that the maintenance of a Tesla is up to the owner is trying to fool people.
Best bit an electric car in the Winter? Using the app to heat the car before you leave and melt the ice off the windows. Get in a nice warm car and head to work while everyone else is scraping, spraying and moaning.
As a first time EV owner, entering my first winter, I found this video to be very helpful. I've admired your honest, down to earth videos for quite a while now and would certainly recommend them for any new EV driver who wants to get their heads round all things EV. As you rightly say, range loss occurs on ANY vehicle in the UK during the winter months. It's just that ICE vehicle owners have pretty much ignored it because the loss doesn't equate to range anxiety in their minds. I reckon once the public charging network is as well developed as filling stations for ICE vehicles, this whole "range anxiety" issue will disappear. It has for me and I've only been driving my Kona EV for 6 months. I actually used the pre-heat function, via the Hyundai app, for the first time a few days ago and it was a real treat. Something I'd never been able to enjoy so conveniently with any of the ICE cars I'd had in the past. No going back to scraping windows in the cold for me now! 😁😁
@@lg9839 what range anxiety his Kona will easy travel 280 mile before a charge and in the U.K. anyone who drives more than that without taking a brake shouldn’t be on the road.
Your Kona will easy travel 280 mile before a charge a little less in the winter, and in the U.K. anyone who drives more than that without taking a brake shouldn’t be on the road. I had the Kona brilliant car changed for the E Niro a year ago because we needed more leg room in the back, it’s also a brilliant car. Seems the Koreans are leading the world with their cars, just a small step behind Tesla, but that won’t last.
@@wobby1516 Anyone who travels 280 miles without taking a brake is probably in a plane. The problem with taking a break to charge an EV in this country is the thing quite often doesn't work and even when it does you're stuck in a crap hole for ages. All made worse in winter.
Good rule of thumb guide here. Main takeaways for non-EV drivers should be that (like almost every other perceived negative of EVs), they're outweighed by the positives. In 2 years/25k miles I had my first delay due to range loss last week. I regularly do a return journey to London and don't need to charge. This time I stayed overnight and it happened to be the coldest night of the year. I also did three short journeys within London with the car getting completely cold every time. When I started my journey home, the route planner said you'll arrive with -4% charge and plotted a route via a charger. There were a couple of roadwork sections on the motorway, so the range improved and it took the charging stop out of the plan. By myself I probably would have risked it, but with family onboard and at midnight in freezing weather I decided to stop anyway. I stopped for a 4 minute charge (30 miles added range), about 7 minutes added to journey. I arrived home with 31 miles range. Those 7 minutes need to be set against the fact that four times I got into a warm car (including twice when other people were scraping), I saved £35 in congestion/ULEZ charge, £8 in parking. And that's ignoring the daily/average benefits of always getting into a car at the perfect temperature, never having to visit a petrol station etc
Heated seats and a heated steering wheel are probably the most important things you need in an EV. Allows for a slightly lower cabin temperature (at least as long as you are alone) and still comfortable driving conditions.
Which is the most efficient in an electric car in cold conditions. 1. Run the heater at a comfortable 20degC. 2. Use an electric seat and run the heater at a cooler temp (everyones cold tolerance varies).
We picked up our first EV today. Thanks to videos by yourself and others I am much better equipped to use my vehicle wisely! Also, heated seats and steering wheel for the WIN! 😁👍
The reason ICE cars are less affected by the weather is that they heat the cabin with their waste heat. They don't have to use an extra energy to heat them because their so inefficient and spew heat out left right and centre they've got plenty to direct at the air ducts.
Correct but in the winter left outside overnight mine will easily do a 500 mile trip and I bet yours wont. An EV is inefficient in the Winter as it has to warm everything up so pros and cons really. Basically most EV owners are minted and dont understand the average persons motoring i.e. no spare 35K plus for a car and most likely on street parking.
Lol. You made me remember an old ICE car I had that had some fins corroded away from the radiator. I had to run the heater on full blast with windows and sunroof open in the summer to stop it overheating the engine.
Hyundai Ioniq 5: Range in summer 300. Range in winter 230. Heating on level 1 and 20 degrees - range 200. Real world range 186. Amount of charging required a week x3. Cost charging public with 2022 electric prices: £136 a week. Heated seats and wheel are nice but when it's -5 out - heating inside is necessary. I got rid of it and back to petrol. NOTE: The Tesla model 3 was much much better in winter than the Ioniq 5.
@@ElectricVehicleMan What about taxis? It's utterly useless and charging is difficult for most people in cities who don't live in a house with a driveway. Public charging is much more expensive than petrol also not to mention the time loss and the amount of charging which are not fit for purpose but are counted as working
@Wayne I 💯 percent agree with you, these vehicles are not suitable for most people until and unless they figure out how to attach some sort of generator which charges the vehicle on the go. I own a 40kwh leaf, 2021, and the headache and charging costs are astronomical. And the amount of time you turn up at a charger and it is malfunctioning, and this is London which has the "better" charging infrastructure, is truly criminal. Btw during the heatwave last month, the public chargers were too hot to charge, utterly useless
@@bortstanson2034 Kinda backs up my 90% of drivers statement who charge from home. Not 100% of all drivers. There are thousands of EV taxis in cities. Maybe ask them how they’re not fit for purpose. 🤷♂️
On the coldest days I find two things help my range (LEAF) 1. use preheat to defrost car and warm up cabin. 2. Set car to charge after starting heating, this has the effect of warming the battery pack slightly. My loss of range seems to be less the longer my journey, short journeys really drain things quickly, whilst a steady main road trip gives a better range. Range per KwH increases as the running gear in the car warms up, (bearings , drive train and tyres) 20% seems about right on the coldest days.
I've ordered a Fiat 500e to replace my Twingo GT which will arrive later this month. Like its identically sized predecessor, it will be parked overnight in my small integral garage, so this video is very helpful.
Very good , timely video, and now for the ...just a couple of things. The 12V battery is charged from...the traction battery, so energy is energy. And for me , one of the biggest losses I ever had was with driving into a constant headwind on a journey, drastic and worst loss I ever had, that and rain/snow resistance for tyres also is a chunk of range. Wind caused 30% loss, November 2020. But generally 15-20% seems about right for this... MG ZS and Leaf 30 experience.
12v battery comes from the traction if it needs it, which for the most part comes when you charge the car. So it's possible, but far less likely it'll effect range.
@@ElectricVehicleMan AFAIK the 12V battery is topped up whenever the car is in 'Ready' mode ie capable of being driven. Also topped up in charging mode. The charger runs at 14V so any use on 12V is pretty much direct from the traction battery. Doesn't make a ha'peth of difference as the actual energy used is so small.
Electric cars range is calculated for the flat terrain. I drove Nissan Leaf (on paper 380 km range) in my Alpine area, November, the cabin was 21°C. I started fully charged and the range was 190 km. For me useless as my daily range is about 300 km. Half year later I drove from the Capital to the seaside, which is about 120 km distance. It was a traffic jam on a highway, 32°C outside and the cabin temperature was cooled to 25°C... I didn't do it as the car was powerless allready 40 km from the Capital, after 2 hours staying in a traffic jam. EV cars are still only for urban, go nerby store shopping purpose.
Thanks for the useful info - picking up my 1st EV in January (Kia Soul), so helpful info for the winter months - and thx for the signposting to smart home charge. [Nice to see some familiar roads around Crosshills and the A629!]
Had our Kia Soul 64kwh first edition for 3 months now, it's the best car we've had. Glad we made the switch to an ev, especially a month or two back with the fuel crisis. Charge at home no issues. Car is super comfy and feature packed. Heated seats and steering wheel are amazing. Enjoy your Soul when it arrives. We got a white car with red roof, it makes it easy to find in a crowded supermarket car park.
I didn't notice you highlight the separate actions of : A warming the cabin, which is great of course, and B preconditioning the battery by warming it up while still plugged in, so that it is at its best. But another great video, thanks!
@@ElectricVehicleMan yes, it's there, but I bet most of your viewers who don't know about it would not have realised there are two separate things (cabin and battery) happening. But I assure you I've been learning from you for a long time, and IMHO you're the best source of EV information on TH-cam.
Love this guys delivery and realism - Learnt so much waiting for my 1st EV to be delivered. I'm a Dad, always moaning about the open windows, bound to have a frickin great Parka on standby in the boot - It will be the modern version of the Trilby on the parcelshelf I expect...
I've been driving a 2017 e-golf from new in Canada and I agree with all you've said: average ~20% range loss in winter. As you said, it varies depending on temp; at -10*C loss of %15, at -20*C loss of 20-25%, at -40*C up to 45-50%. Loss of about 1-2% with winter tires (not all-season, actual winters). Had a diesel jetta before and cabin heating is way more comfortable for short trips now. Only issue for long trips with this car is lvl3 charging is noticeably slower than in summer (no battery management - air cooled batt).
@@DennisFreeland LOL! Agreed! I avoid it as well. It only happens a few times a year, but when you have to be somewhere, well... Actually, in the extreme cold, longer trips are "more efficient" as you are not constantly re-heating the cabin, and the battery gets warm from the constant draw, so slightly better range than several quick trip to the shops. At least that's what I've found.
With the last two diesel cars I've had, I'd find that economy would drop closer to 10% than 15%, in general, partly mitigated because a) I'm miserly with air con in summer, and b) I cover my windscreen and front side windows in winter (idling with the air con on full blast isn't going to win any efficiency awards). If EVs technically lose a higher percentage of their range in colder weather, I imagine that won't be the case in a few years.
Absolutely spot on Andy. It's an art here in Norway driving an EV in winter and having a toasty warm pre-heated car at -20c without having to first go inside a freezing diesel or petrol car and then scraping the ice and snow for fifteen minutes. Give me an EV anytime 😊 Typical Daily Mail and media comments 🙄....
did you not miss out having to defrost your locks to get in to the car. if you use a heat timer on the car or an app to start heating then that would also defrost the locks so you can get into the car
@@davidsworld5837 absolutely, no locks to defrost.....My Kona has conventional locks and door handles and haven't had a problem as yet. The Model 3 and several other makes have different handles that can cause some issues but there are several tips on TH-cam how to avoid frozen door handles.
Great channel…. Picked up our new Skoda enyaq 80x with heat pump yesterday from Huddersfield. It was 95% charged, drove home to Manchester, then drove to Cockermouth today- stopped to charge for 50 mins to 86%, and drove back to Manchester with 45 miles remaining. It’s my first EV, so we were a little apprehensive but enjoyed the journey and the car. Nothing to compare with except my previous diesel motor. Any help or comments appreciated.
Congratulations on the new car, the reviews have been very positive, I am sure you will enjoy not having to deal with diesel on a regular basis. With regards to charging, as I you may well be aware, the higher the state of charge of your battery, the slower it will charge, especially on a fast dc charger. If it is possible (and I appreciate that UK fast charge infrastructure has some catching up to do) it is often better to go for a couple of short stops during the journey when you will receive a higher/faster rate of charge during each stop. This is dependant on suitable chargers being available to you and the charging curve of your particular car. When there is better distribution and many more chargers built, you will probably find your journey time reduced by taking more and shorter charge stops.
On average on my Vivaro e, with 75kwh battery, in cold weather I loose about 40% on range, but that is with heaters on lights etc. Even in eco mode the cabin is still maintained at a comfortable level, but still reduces range.
One thing that may not be a factor in the UK but definitely is a factor in reducing range here in Canada is the change to winter tires for almost 1/2 of each year. Winter tires reduce the efficiency of all cars, regardless of what fuel pushes them. I’m going into my 5th winter with my 1st generation (2017) Hyundai Ioniq and I have to say, with a rated range of 200 km, I’m still getting 240-250 km in warm weather but, as soon as I put on the winter tires, the range drops to 190-210 km. I’m semi-retired now but had a 140 km round trip commute up until COVID came along and, winter or summer, the only place I ever needed to recharge was at home.
It’s not something that’s overly concerns me now. More so when I had the leaf as back then range wasn’t as good to start with, and therefore the loss of range in winter had a bigger impact and felt more profound. Now range is much better and so even with a loss you are still getting plenty of miles for most journeys (unless you do regular high mile trips).
I have now had my EV, a Kia E Niro for 6 months. I had also come to the same 20% reduction in range during cold winter months. I know I can do 250 miles in summer and 200 in winter. Also use of heated seats uses a lot less energy if you are wearing a coat and run the heating to sub 20 degrees. I also agree with stuck on a road, we had a 1 and a half hour delay and ran heating as needed and my range dropped by only 3 miles, with no exhaust smoke!!! I wonder how much fuel an ICE would use to idle with heater or aircon for that time?
I’m on my second Winter in my Polestar 2. I can live with the decreased range but I find the loss of performance annoying. In the Summer, performance drops off at about 10% SOC but in Winter it can be from about 60% due to the cold battery.
Regarding comparative efficiencies, for a petrol or diesel powered vehicle this is between 20 and 30 percent, essentially due to the operation of the second law of thermodynamics applied to the transition from chemical energy to work. The remaining 70 to 80 percent of the chemical energy in the fuel is dissipated to the atmosphere via the radiator and exhaust. Electrical energy dissipated in a resistance to provide heat is done with an "efficiency" of 100 %.
just returned from N Yorks Dales, incl Tan Hill just hours before locked in by 7ft drifts - 12 days extensively touring at low speed (total 1,100 miles) This is my first RV winter and I am sharing it with Zoe (Gt) - we found a loss of more like 25% (4+mls/kwh summer and c. 3m/k in temps below 3 c and above -1) Driving for more than 3 or 4 hrs at c 30mph with minimal heating. Speeds over 65mph really reduces range further I found I was charging for c 90mins nrly every day, which became a drag I love the car but would like 30% more range in summer and only a 10% efficiency loss in temps down to zero
Nice video one thing I always think about is pre heating my m3lr 8.30am each day for school run, when pluged into mains it will use house power of around 7.2kwh at my high price 10-15 minutes so I time the charger 12.30-4.30 so it force the car to use its own power to pre heat
Yep, 20% is how I see it in mine, rule of thumb. In practice when I've miscalculated in the past, slowing down a bit got me the range I needed (speed has a dramatic impact).
I used my 2 week old Modle 3 LFP rear-wheel-drive to go from West mids to The Strand, it was snowing and -2c the car had 274 miles full charge, the sat nav said 114 miles it was just over 2 miles out, I used 117 miles. I preheated the car before leaving with it also plugged in until I started my journey. So it felt like I did not lose the 20% ish range that I thought I would lose, not sure if the heat pump made a difference.
A single long journey usually is more efficient for start up losses and your pre-heating helps a lot. Plus there is a great variability for rain, snow and headwind. And the Tesla range estimation is usually very good.
If you're stuck on a motorway in freezing conditions in an ICE car then you're either running your engine or draining your 12v battery so it's no better (probably far worse if you're sat in a stationary car with your engine idling)
My old mk1 leaf was a nightmare in winter , the resistive heater in it at the time used to take 7kwh per hour plus whatever speed you were doing at the time so if you were traveling at 70mph the best I used to get was 2.8kwh , the app never worked when it got cold as it used to overload the server , the Id3 ten years later still only got 2.5kwh simply because the preheat and optimised heating for the pack to get the pack up to 24c in 8c ambient just killed the car 1.6kwh. On average on a short run at town speed of less than 12 miles so a 62kwh. Averaged 170 miles and that was with. Heat pump , Dave (the owner had enough after the first cold snap in combination with a ruck load of hardware issues vw ended up buying the car back. He now drives a second hand c300 de estate, Ev range 22miles but loves it because he as a rep needed the range so even the worst days he can get to the destination and back home (average 120 miles to location ) the sooner we require real world range uses and range available at 20-30- 50 and 70 mph the better with a cold pack
Our 2015 Nissan Leaf (heat pump) just lost the first battery bar at 6 and half years with 35k on the clock. With 1-3 degrees ambient temperature the range has gone down to 40 miles from 80. That’s for 3-4 short rides daily and most of the energy is consumed to heat up the cabin.
Thanks, agree ,I lose about 20% in Winter. For me not really a problem as I charge at home, and will only do 2 or 3 long trips in Winter, so maybe an extra charging stop. Yes heating is a big range loss, but so is the colder denser air, which gives more air resistance.
I think you are forgetting that cars these days are very efficient when moving through the air ...the density increase in winter has no effect at all!! Just think of where the battery components were made and how the workers were treated!!!
@@leemingmerlin The drag equation shows drag is directly proportional to air density, and the difference in air density from 25c to 1C is about 10%, so a minimum of 10% loss due to temperature, even more as the humidity in Winter is higher, so air is even denser. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_equation
Love your videos. Not too nerdy, but quite informative and always using quite plain language. We need more EVPs and less nerdy EV -TH-camr if we want the Daily Mail readers to drive electric. EV drivers already drive an electric vehicle, and maybe we love all those nerdy stats, but I think those are to intimidating for the normal diesel/petrol driver. 👍
Thanks for keeping it real, EVM. Renault Zoe 2019 50Kwh. Summer 100% = 210 miles. Winter from +3c to - 4c 100% = 160 to 165 miles and a warning dash message "Battery too cold to charge" at coldest end of this range. They mean too cold to take regenerative charge. No problems heating cabin. Heated seat and steering wheel quick and powerful. But this drop in range is pants as it seems to combine with a less linear decline in battery capacity which makes me nervous as we hit 20% remaining. This vehicle has a heat pump. ICE vehicles use more fuel in cold conditions, but it's barely noticeable.
Idiling a ICE car for a few mins uses a tiny amount of fuel. Range loss in winter in an EV is much greater. Use a digital camera in the cold to see how badly batteries perform in the cold.
Have a Peugeot e expert, loose 10 mile range in winter but feel I could reduce that by changing lighting to led and as a PV installer thinking of a panel on roof feeding 12v battery but may need to do this via can bus. Tricky.
Thanks for that. Very interesting. I think it comes back to range anxiety being a misnomer - the real anxiety is will the charger be there, will it work, will I have the right card/app/permission, will it be ICED/available? None of those issues apply when filling up with petrol. I have had EVs for a few years now and have happily driven from Glasgow to London/Newcastle/Manchester many times. However I will be picking my son up from Uni just before Christmas which is a 450 mile round trip in a day. I can't face the stress of finding chargers etc etc in the freezing cold and dark with the inevitable higher number of cars on the road (wanting to charge), and more frequent charging requirement (even if only 20% more would mean one extra stop), so I will be taking the Petrol car this time. Don't judge me!
Anyone with a MG ZS EV (not Long Range) that hasn't been through a winter yet - My findings: Summer - 145 Miles (75% motorways 25% urban) Winter - 120 Miles (75% motorways 25% urban) Almost exactly what EVM says. He knows his shiznit.
If the car has a heat pump (model 3 2021 does I think) then the energy used to heat up by +X degC and power to maintain should be about roughly equal to the cooling by -X degC on a hot day.
I noticed Skoda are giving two lots of ranges, one for summer & one for winter which is a good guide. As you said these ranges are only a guide and not a guarantee. I know from my Diesel car it is supposed to do about 52mpg but I've had it up to 70mpg & my EV is supposed to have a maximum range of 144 miles but I managed 180 miles & 5 miles left. So yes personal driving styles can alter the range of any vehicle. During the fuel crises driving the electric car I didn't have to worry about being stuck in a queue & just charged up at home, saved time with that.
I do find an electric car heater is faster to warm the car as it does not have to warm the engine up 1st' I melted the snow off the front window in minutes Plus its much better to use a slower fan speed. more heat and uses less power to do. you did miss that in winter the roads are more likely to be wet so less traction, so use more power but this is also for petrol cars too.
You won't really notice until the warm weather comes, then you'll understand. This is my first winter with an EV, and 15-20% drop feels about right. With home charging it's not inconvenient, just noticeable. I still wouldn't go back to an ICE for anything.
It isn’t actually a triple Whammy. If you heat the battery up then you won’t have efficiency losses from the battery being cold. At most it is a double Whammy.
Another very good video It's worth remembering that heating the inside of an EV is a fairly fixed demand so it will be a much bigger percentage of a smaller battery. My Smart ForFour range drops at least 25% if I have the heater on high plus heated seats. That is of no concern to me but if you really do need its usual 60 miles range all year round don't get one !
Come across your video, as I have reviewed an EV (Mustang Mach-E) and uploaded on my channel! An interesting point of view video chatting about range, one thing I've experienced recently by travelling from Land's End to John O'Groats to simulate a long distance journey, a simple exercise in a I.C.E vehicle (the reason I choose this route - some "journalists" thought it was acceptable to say EV's are capable of long journeys when it took them 12 more hours averaging under 30mph!) 1) I notice you own a Tesla, so already if you don't have a wall charger at home; you're able to charge more faster than other non Tesla EV owners 2) In my video, you'll see the battery performance in the Mach-E tested wasn't providing us anywhere near the range advertised despite 8 degree weather (not that cold in comparison to this video) 3) WLTP is completely flawed for EV's, Mach-E was meant to get 379 miles but didn't even get close to 260 miles! As you pointed out, people are concerned more about range than efficiency; with the state of the charging infrastructure if you're not a Tesla owner, prices of EV in comparison to buying I.C.E, breaking even on investment, charging times, replacement battery & disposal etc - range whether in hot or cold conditions is sub par/very alarming! Increased weight isn't a helpful factor for both range or the environment, a strange one considered most EV's are SUVs or as heavy as one 👀 I'm no EV expert (don't claim to be/never plan to) but I've based my opinions on real world experiences not only for commuting to work on a daily basis but attempting 838 miles too Nevertheless, great video keep up the good work - all the best!
Using the 20% of my WLTP would be more like the very lowest i get in bad winter weather with my Ioniq 28kwh bev. I almost get the exact wltp range in Summer with the Ioniq. Its a very efficient car at Motorway speeds due to its low Drag Co Efficient only matched by the Model3. Where I loose the range is as you mentioned with lots of Start/ Stop Heating and cooling of the car down to about 170km range during last week in Winter. So loosing 17- 20% of wltp . But your figures id say are more realistic for less Efficient Cars at higher speeds. Youll often see owners of the Kona and E-Nero get more than the wltp range but take a big hit in the Colder weather depending on their start/ stop usage
They all run off a 12V battery and use a tiny amount. Hilly areas are hilly areas all year round, they don’t just come out in winter. 🤷♂️ They would also affect ICE just as much.
There is also a impact on range from having to use lights and wipers more in winter even though they work off 12v battery, this is obviosly charged off main traction pack.
So....does tapping the climate button on the app also preheat the battery as well as the cabin? That's what I do 10 mins before I leave the house when it's cold?
I am seeing a similar range loss in my hybrid but still have more than enough to get to work and back every day. The pre heating is brilliant, especially as I never have to scrape the windscreen.
In the 1990s I had a Clifford alarm that would remotely start the car engine and defrost it. Then they banned that feature. I can now do it in summer to cool the cabin but not heat in winter (different car).
Great video. My concern about winter driving is not that I lose c.20% of range but that if your journey is mostly motorway and your average speed is 75-80 mph (about the average on motorways) then you have already reduced your range because of speed. So for example if your EV gets 260 miles in an urban setting you might only 210 miles from a mostly motorway drive (still not a problem for me as that is longer than my bladder range) but in winter you might only get 170 miles of range. Add in fact that I would never drive until I was down to less 10% of battery unless I have no choice and effectively that gives me about 155 miles of real world range. That is slightly less than I would be comfortable with on the 2 long journeys I typically do regularly. That just means I need to buy the longer range version of whatever EV I finally decide on. If I can get 200 miles in winter on the motorway with 10% of battery left I am more than happy with the range because that is the absolute max I would travel without stopping in ICE car
This is what I said. Compare the real world range of what you get in summer and knock 20% off. Can’t compare summer urban range with winter motorway range for example.
Hi mate, couple of questions I have bought an VW ID 3 tour getting it in a couple of weeks. It comes with a heat pump will that help my range in winter. Also do you know if the ID 3 tour has a battery thermal management system. Cheers
I’m not sure who works out these winter fuel figures on ICE cars. On very short journeys in winter - yes, mostly due to people warming the car up whilst stationary. My car gives me mpg figures via an app and I’ve checked them by refilling and doing the math. Last weekend a 100 mile journey in -1 deg to +3 deg was 58mpg, summer range for the same journey is 59.5mpg. I’ve done this multiple times for years!
Mine drops off about 5mpg in winter. I think modern small all aluminium engines struggle to keep themselves warm enough (less thermal mass). Maybe blocking off some of the grill might help me. But it's not really enough for me to essentially care.
You're absolutely right, but of course, you can always use an electric preheater for your old petrol car, both a compartment preheter and a motor preheater. Of course it's not as effective as an EV. In a petrol car I would preheat for at least an hour. At -30 °C I would preheat a petrol car for three hours and use a timer switch. Using 10 minutes each morning scraping the windows is just madness no matter petrol or EV.
A couple of other factors you didn’t mention are the increased drag from higher density air in the cold, mostly effecting motorway journeys and then the road surface which is typically wet or in your case snow and slush which again increase drag.
Reason 4: Cold air, for a given pressure, occupies less volume making it denser! So aerodynamic drag is therefore higher. Also, for the same reason your tyre pressures are lower. So make sure you topup the tyre pressures!
Bigger here with winters colder. I wish it were 20%. Probably closer to 1/3 from normal. US Kona no heat pump. At least it warms quickly, and the efficiency is great in good weather.
I’ve always liked the tech in EV’s to look after the batteries. I’ve watched of a certain Norway Ninja to know EV’s work even going to the artic circle 😉 When people see a EV car defrost itself, granted it may take a week of a cold snap before they notice and think wait a minute…the penny drops. But hey who doesn’t like snapping a door open that’s frosted up plus for cars that have frameless like the mini hatch windows fight the motor to lower to so it can open then sit inside freezing to run the Car till it warms up. Yes you can leave the ice Car running itself but that’s frowned upon.
Great video. Yep, I’d agree on thinking what you say, I’d say I loose 20% in the winter in my e-Niro. P.S I’m originally from the same area so love to see where you’re driving, I see you finished in Crossflatts.
What would you think of my use case of a van, used to make 6 to 10 drops a day. Probably have to open the doors for a couple of minutes at each drop. Would I lose all my eat.
Many EV's have heat pumps as options. Does this make much difference in reality? Manafacturers claim 30% more efficient heating in winter. Does that actually make difference to loss of range?
Hi, great video. Had our Kia Soul EV with 64kwh battery for about 3 months, was getting nearly 330 miles on the dash display after a full charge at first, now it's getting colder, a full charge only shows around 285 miles. Do the batteries charge less efficiently in winter? will I get back to nearly 330 miles on the dash in the warmer months?
Our 30 kWh Leaf loses about 40% of real world range in a worst case winter scenario, running AC and heating on full power, but of course Leaf owners are a hardy bunch and tend to prioritise range over comfort. Our next EV will have thermal battery management and a heat pump.
@EVM biggest factor to range loss is "Air Resistance" Winter = more dense air = more drag from air resistance. The temperature is a bigger factor on battery consumption when idle over a cold night and during heating if you didnt pre heat etc.
Great video. Very informative. Don’t hv an electric car yet because Ireland hasn’t woken up to installing public chargers. Everyone afraid to go fully electric because of that. But hope to change from diesel next year maybe if I can afford it. Maybe a plug in hybrid to start. Any recommendations? What make is your car? Looks very comfortable and big inside and no noise.
I’d love to know how much per night an EV looses overnight when parked outside. I suspect that you need to keep the car plugged in to charge them. My preference is to park a car in a garage but that seems not to be the fashion now days.
There are major cities that experience temperatures approaching -35'C in winter. I'm in Canada living in a city with a population of about a million. It was -47'C with wind chill outside a few days ago. This is where concerns with charging and range are justified.
A petrol engine uses only 30-35% of its fuel to move the car with 65-70% being lost in heat. This means that petrol is really 2 to 3 times more expensive than we think it is. Any stated mileage for an ICE engine should be reduced by this amount when comparing to an electric car mileage.
Real world range test on our Citroen e-C4 today. Mrs T went 25 miles each way on a cold winters night on a mixture of A roads in traffic. Started with car charged up to full, Plugged in and preconditioned. Range 198 miles. Her return range is now 85 miles, so 115 miles range used on a 50 mile journey. Citroen are supposed to be bringing a software update to improve the real world range - I hope it works In normal winter driving its not a warm car even with the heating set to 21. It's a good job we have heated seats A 200 mile range is achievable in summer with careful use of the accelerator and generally following the traffic. We really like the car but winter range is very poor and we wouldn't attempt a long distance journey, especially with unreliable public chargers everywhere. Good job we have a diesel second car.
@@AnonYmous-rw6un It's more of a guessometer as the car doesn't know how you are going to drive it. Based on 6 months ownership through summer and now winter the real world range has really fallen since the cold weather arrived. In summer I would say its fairly accurate based on driving steadily but not its winter range as no amount of slow driving in ECO + B mode will get near the predicted range.
my i3 range drops from 120ish miles to anywhere between 80 and 90 depending upon how often I have to run the heater to de fog the windscreen. I try to rely on my heated seats rather than the heater but the windscreen fogs up then i have to run the heater until it clears and that really chews my battery life - every EV should have a heated windscreen as standard and I dont know why they dont have it! (I dont have a home wallbox so defrosting the car uses battery range)
I would also say the use of heat to warm up the battery or cool it down is throwing money out the window. An engine doesn’t need to do that, and takes 2-3 minutes to warm up. A battery takes 20-30 minutes. You definitely need to be well educated if you are buying EV. A lot to consider.
A petrol engine has an entire system dedicated to keeping it from overheating. Radiators, coolant! It’s a huge waste of money. Petrol engines are around 35% efficient, electric motors are 90%. Literally not even close.
Interesting. Just a thought my VW Up tsi blue motion ice 2 ways work m25 27miles vs A320 25 miles . Very very early in morning A320 62mpg vs M25 70mpg. Not sure everything you say right. (Just a side note I do want an ev)
Something you did not mention... getting stuck is a snow drift overnight or on a road blocked by stranded lorries. I would rather be in an electric car with the quiet heating on than in an ICE car and worrying about carbon monoxide poisoning. It does happen.
I suppose if an EV has a good range as standard then having reduced range during cold spells isn't too much of an issue.. Those with a smaller range EV do have a worrying drop... These vehicles do need a 400 mile range as a minimum so they can cope with cold weather and higher motorway speeds.. I do notice EVs on the autoroute driving at 110km/h (slow) so they actually get the advertised range.. This is big issue for long range trips.. Once again a minimum of 400 miles but preferably 500 miles would then negate these issues... Unfortunately too many vehicles are still badly lacking in range.. 100kW battery with hyper efficient battery efficiency perhaps?
My old Toyota C-HR did ~48 mpg in the winter and 58 mpg in the summer. That's 17% reduction for the winter so 20% for an EV is pretty much the same... What causes a big drop of range is many short journeys in the winter when the cabin is heated up/cooled down, again and again... There again I don't make many long journeys in the winter. Still I rather have my Tesla SR+ any day to an ICE car.
I’m a taxi driver with a Kia eniro 3, no heat pump. 285 miles in summer, 235 now if I don’t have the heating on. About 210 if I have the heater on. 🤷♂️
Spoke to a neighbour who bought an EV asked him about the range, salesman quoted around 240 to 260 miles per charge, in winter with heating on, or summer with air con he averages just about half of that, criminal.
Where does it end? In summer you're more likely to have the window down which increases drag a lot more than dense air. There's been detailed and then there's been detailed.
Once the engine is at its optimum operating temperature, the engine will have normal efficiency and keeping the cabin warm is a bonus of the heat produced by the internal combustion engine. Cold air is denser and therefore richer in oxygen, therefore better combustion and power. The electric fan will work less or not at all. All this does not mean that the efficiency of internal combustion engines is good, but I do not want to spend every day planning my car trips as if it were a plane trip.
Smart Home Charge: bit.ly/3rneEWm - Rapid charger comparison tool!
You are missing the 'Prepare your electric car for winter" video link from the description btw.
How are the cross climate tyres doing ?
@@lg9839 I pay £13.50 for every 1,000 miles and there is no maintenance (even if there was it is cheaper).
So no, they’re not more expensive to run.
Depreciation is also significantly lower than petrol/diesel so you literally couldn’t by more wrong with that statement.
As for gas etc, who brought that up? What’s that got to do with winter range?
Electric has gone up a lot, but so has petrol! So 🤷♂️
@@lg9839
£13.50 will get roughly 100 miles in ICE.
Even using your figures, that’s still massively cheaper than petrol!
You said the opposite at the start of this thread, electric was more expensive???
There is no scheduled service needed on my EV. Of course there’s tyres etc but overall, maintenance is far cheaper than ICE, just look at manufacturers service costs. The evidence is everywhere!
So again, remind me how they’re more expensive to run?
@@ElectricVehicleMan although L G is wrong, I think Tesla isn’t doing themselves a favor telling people that the cars are maintenance free.
You have a 12v Battery to check, you have fluids to check, you have an interior air filter that needs replacing now and then, you have brake pads and disks that also need checking and replacing, and I could
Extend that list even more. Yes the list is shorter than the list of an ICE, but telling that the maintenance of a Tesla is up to the owner is trying to fool people.
Best bit an electric car in the Winter? Using the app to heat the car before you leave and melt the ice off the windows. Get in a nice warm car and head to work while everyone else is scraping, spraying and moaning.
Even without pre-heating the instant heat available and heated seats means a wait of only a couple of minutes before you can drive off.
Well, an external heater is nothing new of electric vehicles, they only have it as standard, as it is their only option to heat the cabin.
My leaf 40 heats the seats and also steering wheel as well when I preheat with app 🤣😂👍🇬🇧
Antonio Palmero Nice! The Corsa only heats the cabin, you have to turn the seats on yourself.
Amen! I’m more than willing to lose a few miles of range for comfort.
As a first time EV owner, entering my first winter, I found this video to be very helpful.
I've admired your honest, down to earth videos for quite a while now and would certainly recommend them for any new EV driver who wants to get their heads round all things EV.
As you rightly say, range loss occurs on ANY vehicle in the UK during the winter months. It's just that ICE vehicle owners have pretty much ignored it because the loss doesn't equate to range anxiety in their minds.
I reckon once the public charging network is as well developed as filling stations for ICE vehicles, this whole "range anxiety" issue will disappear. It has for me and I've only been driving my Kona EV for 6 months.
I actually used the pre-heat function, via the Hyundai app, for the first time a few days ago and it was a real treat. Something I'd never been able to enjoy so conveniently with any of the ICE cars I'd had in the past. No going back to scraping windows in the cold for me now! 😁😁
@@lg9839 what range anxiety his Kona will easy travel 280 mile before a charge and in the U.K. anyone who drives more than that without taking a brake shouldn’t be on the road.
Your Kona will easy travel 280 mile before a charge a little less in the winter, and in the U.K. anyone who drives more than that without taking a brake shouldn’t be on the road. I had the Kona brilliant car changed for the E Niro a year ago because we needed more leg room in the back, it’s also a brilliant car. Seems the Koreans are leading the world with their cars, just a small step behind Tesla, but that won’t last.
@@wobby1516 Anyone who travels 280 miles without taking a brake is probably in a plane.
The problem with taking a break to charge an EV in this country is the thing quite often doesn't work and even when it does you're stuck in a crap hole for ages. All made worse in winter.
@Wooly Chewbakker no energy is free
@Wooly Chewbakker the heat is derived from burning fossil fuel.
It's wasted the majority of the time.
Good rule of thumb guide here. Main takeaways for non-EV drivers should be that (like almost every other perceived negative of EVs), they're outweighed by the positives.
In 2 years/25k miles I had my first delay due to range loss last week. I regularly do a return journey to London and don't need to charge. This time I stayed overnight and it happened to be the coldest night of the year. I also did three short journeys within London with the car getting completely cold every time. When I started my journey home, the route planner said you'll arrive with -4% charge and plotted a route via a charger. There were a couple of roadwork sections on the motorway, so the range improved and it took the charging stop out of the plan. By myself I probably would have risked it, but with family onboard and at midnight in freezing weather I decided to stop anyway. I stopped for a 4 minute charge (30 miles added range), about 7 minutes added to journey. I arrived home with 31 miles range.
Those 7 minutes need to be set against the fact that four times I got into a warm car (including twice when other people were scraping), I saved £35 in congestion/ULEZ charge, £8 in parking. And that's ignoring the daily/average benefits of always getting into a car at the perfect temperature, never having to visit a petrol station etc
Heated seats and a heated steering wheel are probably the most important things you need in an EV. Allows for a slightly lower cabin temperature (at least as long as you are alone) and still comfortable driving conditions.
heated windscreen is even more important. You do need it to keep windscreen mist-free and snow on it melting.
Which is the most efficient in an electric car in cold conditions.
1. Run the heater at a comfortable 20degC.
2. Use an electric seat and run the heater at a cooler temp (everyones cold tolerance varies).
We picked up our first EV today.
Thanks to videos by yourself and others I am much better equipped to use my vehicle wisely!
Also, heated seats and steering wheel for the WIN!
😁👍
Congratulations. What did you get ? .
@@antoniopalmero4063 Kia Soul EV. Its the 2018 model with a 30 kwh battery and its just lovely!
😁
The reason ICE cars are less affected by the weather is that they heat the cabin with their waste heat. They don't have to use an extra energy to heat them because their so inefficient and spew heat out left right and centre they've got plenty to direct at the air ducts.
Correct but in the winter left outside overnight mine will easily do a 500 mile trip and I bet yours wont. An EV is inefficient in the Winter as it has to warm everything up so pros and cons really. Basically most EV owners are minted and dont understand the average persons motoring i.e. no spare 35K plus for a car and most likely on street parking.
@@davidlewis4399 I've only got on street parking but there you go. The avg journey in the UK is
Lol. You made me remember an old ICE car I had that had some fins corroded away from the radiator. I had to run the heater on full blast with windows and sunroof open in the summer to stop it overheating the engine.
@@davidlewis4399nobody needs that...
Hyundai Ioniq 5: Range in summer 300. Range in winter 230. Heating on level 1 and 20 degrees - range 200. Real world range 186. Amount of charging required a week x3. Cost charging public with 2022 electric prices: £136 a week. Heated seats and wheel are nice but when it's -5 out - heating inside is necessary. I got rid of it and back to petrol. NOTE: The Tesla model 3 was much much better in winter than the Ioniq 5.
If you can charge at home, 200 miles isn't an issue for 90% of drivers. It's about 4-5 hours of driving.
@@ElectricVehicleMan
What about taxis? It's utterly useless and charging is difficult for most people in cities who don't live in a house with a driveway. Public charging is much more expensive than petrol also not to mention the time loss and the amount of charging which are not fit for purpose but are counted as working
@Wayne
I 💯 percent agree with you, these vehicles are not suitable for most people until and unless they figure out how to attach some sort of generator which charges the vehicle on the go. I own a 40kwh leaf, 2021, and the headache and charging costs are astronomical. And the amount of time you turn up at a charger and it is malfunctioning, and this is London which has the "better" charging infrastructure, is truly criminal. Btw during the heatwave last month, the public chargers were too hot to charge, utterly useless
@@bortstanson2034 Kinda backs up my 90% of drivers statement who charge from home. Not 100% of all drivers.
There are thousands of EV taxis in cities. Maybe ask them how they’re not fit for purpose. 🤷♂️
On the coldest days I find two things help my range (LEAF) 1. use preheat to defrost car and warm up cabin. 2. Set car to charge after starting heating, this has the effect of warming the battery pack slightly. My loss of range seems to be less the longer my journey, short journeys really drain things quickly, whilst a steady main road trip gives a better range. Range per KwH increases as the running gear in the car warms up, (bearings , drive train and tyres)
20% seems about right on the coldest days.
I've ordered a Fiat 500e to replace my Twingo GT which will arrive later this month. Like its identically sized predecessor, it will be parked overnight in my small integral garage, so this video is very helpful.
Very good , timely video, and now for the ...just a couple of things.
The 12V battery is charged from...the traction battery, so energy is energy.
And for me , one of the biggest losses I ever had was with driving into a constant headwind on a journey, drastic and worst loss I ever had, that and rain/snow resistance for tyres also is a chunk of range. Wind caused 30% loss, November 2020.
But generally 15-20% seems about right for this... MG ZS and Leaf 30 experience.
12v battery comes from the traction if it needs it, which for the most part comes when you charge the car.
So it's possible, but far less likely it'll effect range.
@@ElectricVehicleMan AFAIK the 12V battery is topped up whenever the car is in 'Ready' mode ie capable of being driven. Also topped up in charging mode. The charger runs at 14V so any use on 12V is pretty much direct from the traction battery. Doesn't make a ha'peth of difference as the actual energy used is so small.
Electric cars range is calculated for the flat terrain. I drove Nissan Leaf (on paper 380 km range) in my Alpine area, November, the cabin was 21°C. I started fully charged and the range was 190 km. For me useless as my daily range is about 300 km. Half year later I drove from the Capital to the seaside, which is about 120 km distance. It was a traffic jam on a highway, 32°C outside and the cabin temperature was cooled to 25°C... I didn't do it as the car was powerless allready 40 km from the Capital, after 2 hours staying in a traffic jam. EV cars are still only for urban, go nerby store shopping purpose.
Thanks for the useful info - picking up my 1st EV in January (Kia Soul), so helpful info for the winter months - and thx for the signposting to smart home charge. [Nice to see some familiar roads around Crosshills and the A629!]
Had our Kia Soul 64kwh first edition for 3 months now, it's the best car we've had. Glad we made the switch to an ev, especially a month or two back with the fuel crisis. Charge at home no issues. Car is super comfy and feature packed. Heated seats and steering wheel are amazing. Enjoy your Soul when it arrives. We got a white car with red roof, it makes it easy to find in a crowded supermarket car park.
I didn't notice you highlight the separate actions of :
A warming the cabin, which is great of course, and
B preconditioning the battery by warming it up while still plugged in, so that it is at its best.
But another great video, thanks!
You might want to watch it again.
@@ElectricVehicleMan yes, it's there, but I bet most of your viewers who don't know about it would not have realised there are two separate things (cabin and battery) happening.
But I assure you I've been learning from you for a long time, and IMHO you're the best source of EV information on TH-cam.
Love this guys delivery and realism - Learnt so much waiting for my 1st EV to be delivered. I'm a Dad, always moaning about the open windows, bound to have a frickin great Parka on standby in the boot - It will be the modern version of the Trilby on the parcelshelf I expect...
I've been driving a 2017 e-golf from new in Canada and I agree with all you've said: average ~20% range loss in winter. As you said, it varies depending on temp; at -10*C loss of %15, at -20*C loss of 20-25%, at -40*C up to 45-50%. Loss of about 1-2% with winter tires (not all-season, actual winters). Had a diesel jetta before and cabin heating is way more comfortable for short trips now. Only issue for long trips with this car is lvl3 charging is noticeably slower than in summer (no battery management - air cooled batt).
Good heavens at -40c I think my own personal energy level would be closer to -100% I could not even think about driving a car.
@@DennisFreeland LOL! Agreed! I avoid it as well. It only happens a few times a year, but when you have to be somewhere, well... Actually, in the extreme cold, longer trips are "more efficient" as you are not constantly re-heating the cabin, and the battery gets warm from the constant draw, so slightly better range than several quick trip to the shops. At least that's what I've found.
With the last two diesel cars I've had, I'd find that economy would drop closer to 10% than 15%, in general, partly mitigated because a) I'm miserly with air con in summer, and b) I cover my windscreen and front side windows in winter (idling with the air con on full blast isn't going to win any efficiency awards). If EVs technically lose a higher percentage of their range in colder weather, I imagine that won't be the case in a few years.
Absolutely spot on Andy. It's an art here in Norway driving an EV in winter and having a toasty warm pre-heated car at -20c without having to first go inside a freezing diesel or petrol car and then scraping the ice and snow for fifteen minutes. Give me an EV anytime 😊 Typical Daily Mail and media comments 🙄....
did you not miss out having to defrost your locks to get in to the car. if you use a heat timer on the car or an app to start heating then that would also defrost the locks so you can get into the car
@@davidsworld5837 absolutely, no locks to defrost.....My Kona has conventional locks and door handles and haven't had a problem as yet. The Model 3 and several other makes have different handles that can cause some issues but there are several tips on TH-cam how to avoid frozen door handles.
Great channel…. Picked up our new Skoda enyaq 80x with heat pump yesterday from Huddersfield. It was 95% charged, drove home to Manchester, then drove to Cockermouth today- stopped to charge for 50 mins to 86%, and drove back to Manchester with 45 miles remaining. It’s my first EV, so we were a little apprehensive but enjoyed the journey and the car. Nothing to compare with except my previous diesel motor. Any help or comments appreciated.
Please stop spamming my channel with crap and go back to your anti-vaxxer discussions!
Congratulations on the new car, the reviews have been very positive, I am sure you will enjoy not having to deal with diesel on a regular basis. With regards to charging, as I you may well be aware, the higher the state of charge of your battery, the slower it will charge, especially on a fast dc charger. If it is possible (and I appreciate that UK fast charge infrastructure has some catching up to do) it is often better to go for a couple of short stops during the journey when you will receive a higher/faster rate of charge during each stop. This is dependant on suitable chargers being available to you and the charging curve of your particular car. When there is better distribution and many more chargers built, you will probably find your journey time reduced by taking more and shorter charge stops.
Appreciate your excellent information and indeed your time and effort
On average on my Vivaro e, with 75kwh battery, in cold weather I loose about 40% on range, but that is with heaters on lights etc. Even in eco mode the cabin is still maintained at a comfortable level, but still reduces range.
One thing that may not be a factor in the UK but definitely is a factor in reducing range here in Canada is the change to winter tires for almost 1/2 of each year. Winter tires reduce the efficiency of all cars, regardless of what fuel pushes them.
I’m going into my 5th winter with my 1st generation (2017) Hyundai Ioniq and I have to say, with a rated range of 200 km, I’m still getting 240-250 km in warm weather but, as soon as I put on the winter tires, the range drops to 190-210 km.
I’m semi-retired now but had a 140 km round trip commute up until COVID came along and, winter or summer, the only place I ever needed to recharge was at home.
It’s not something that’s overly concerns me now. More so when I had the leaf as back then range wasn’t as good to start with, and therefore the loss of range in winter had a bigger impact and felt more profound. Now range is much better and so even with a loss you are still getting plenty of miles for most journeys (unless you do regular high mile trips).
I have now had my EV, a Kia E Niro for 6 months. I had also come to the same 20% reduction in range during cold winter months. I know I can do 250 miles in summer and 200 in winter. Also use of heated seats uses a lot less energy if you are wearing a coat and run the heating to sub 20 degrees. I also agree with stuck on a road, we had a 1 and a half hour delay and ran heating as needed and my range dropped by only 3 miles, with no exhaust smoke!!! I wonder how much fuel an ICE would use to idle with heater or aircon for that time?
It didn't set fire then, bonus...
I’m on my second Winter in my Polestar 2. I can live with the decreased range but I find the loss of performance annoying. In the Summer, performance drops off at about 10% SOC but in Winter it can be from about 60% due to the cold battery.
Wow. I appreciate you sharing that information.
Regarding comparative efficiencies, for a petrol or diesel powered vehicle this is between 20 and 30 percent, essentially due to the operation of the second law of thermodynamics applied to the transition from chemical energy to work. The remaining 70 to 80 percent of the chemical energy in the fuel is dissipated to the atmosphere via the radiator and exhaust. Electrical energy dissipated in a resistance to provide heat is done with an "efficiency" of 100 %.
just returned from N Yorks Dales, incl Tan Hill just hours before locked in by 7ft drifts - 12 days extensively touring at low speed (total 1,100 miles)
This is my first RV winter and I am sharing it with Zoe (Gt) - we found a loss of more like 25% (4+mls/kwh summer and c. 3m/k in temps below 3 c and above -1)
Driving for more than 3 or 4 hrs at c 30mph with minimal heating. Speeds over 65mph really reduces range further
I found I was charging for c 90mins nrly every day, which became a drag
I love the car but would like 30% more range in summer and only a 10% efficiency loss in temps down to zero
Nice video one thing I always think about is pre heating my m3lr 8.30am each day for school run, when pluged into mains it will use house power of around 7.2kwh at my high price 10-15 minutes so I time the charger 12.30-4.30 so it force the car to use its own power to pre heat
Yep, 20% is how I see it in mine, rule of thumb. In practice when I've miscalculated in the past, slowing down a bit got me the range I needed (speed has a dramatic impact).
Bloody hell, I think you managed to catch a lesser spotted gritter at the start of this video, well done lad! :D
Interesting vid and nice to see you driving past my house as you made it!
I used my 2 week old Modle 3 LFP rear-wheel-drive to go from West mids to The Strand, it was snowing and -2c the car had 274 miles full charge, the sat nav said 114 miles it was just over 2 miles out, I used 117 miles. I preheated the car before leaving with it also plugged in until I started my journey. So it felt like I did not lose the 20% ish range that I thought I would lose, not sure if the heat pump made a difference.
A single long journey usually is more efficient for start up losses and your pre-heating helps a lot. Plus there is a great variability for rain, snow and headwind. And the Tesla range estimation is usually very good.
@@bellshooter it was down hill I suppose. 👍
If you're stuck on a motorway in freezing conditions in an ICE car then you're either running your engine or draining your 12v battery so it's no better (probably far worse if you're sat in a stationary car with your engine idling)
That's total nonsense.
You've convinced me with your well-argued responses there. How could I have been so naive.
Excellent video, applies over here across the pond in cold places!
My old mk1 leaf was a nightmare in winter , the resistive heater in it at the time used to take 7kwh per hour plus whatever speed you were doing at the time so if you were traveling at 70mph the best I used to get was 2.8kwh , the app never worked when it got cold as it used to overload the server , the Id3 ten years later still only got 2.5kwh simply because the preheat and optimised heating for the pack to get the pack up to 24c in 8c ambient just killed the car 1.6kwh. On average on a short run at town speed of less than 12 miles so a 62kwh. Averaged 170 miles and that was with. Heat pump , Dave (the owner had enough after the first cold snap in combination with a ruck load of hardware issues vw ended up buying the car back. He now drives a second hand c300 de estate, Ev range 22miles but loves it because he as a rep needed the range so even the worst days he can get to the destination and back home (average 120 miles to location ) the sooner we require real world range uses and range available at 20-30- 50 and 70 mph the better with a cold pack
Our 2015 Nissan Leaf (heat pump) just lost the first battery bar at 6 and half years with 35k on the clock.
With 1-3 degrees ambient temperature the range has gone down to 40 miles from 80. That’s for 3-4 short rides daily and most of the energy is consumed to heat up the cabin.
As I’m a soft Lancashire lad I set the climate control at 21c a year ago today. I’m sure it’s different for a hard tight ass Yorkshireman. 🤣
Thanks, agree ,I lose about 20% in Winter. For me not really a problem as I charge at home, and will only do 2 or 3 long trips in Winter, so maybe an extra charging stop.
Yes heating is a big range loss, but so is the colder denser air, which gives more air resistance.
I think you are forgetting that cars these days are very efficient when moving through the air ...the density increase in winter has no effect at all!! Just think of where the battery components were made and how the workers were treated!!!
@@leemingmerlin The drag equation shows drag is directly proportional to air density, and the difference in air density from 25c to 1C is about 10%, so a minimum of 10% loss due to temperature, even more as the humidity in Winter is higher, so air is even denser.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_equation
Love your videos. Not too nerdy, but quite informative and always using quite plain language. We need more EVPs and less nerdy EV -TH-camr if we want the Daily Mail readers to drive electric. EV drivers already drive an electric vehicle, and maybe we love all those nerdy stats, but I think those are to intimidating for the normal diesel/petrol driver.
👍
Thanks for keeping it real, EVM. Renault Zoe 2019 50Kwh. Summer 100% = 210 miles. Winter from +3c to - 4c 100% = 160 to 165 miles and a warning dash message "Battery too cold to charge" at coldest end of this range. They mean too cold to take regenerative charge. No problems heating cabin. Heated seat and steering wheel quick and powerful. But this drop in range is pants as it seems to combine with a less linear decline in battery capacity which makes me nervous as we hit 20% remaining. This vehicle has a heat pump. ICE vehicles use more fuel in cold conditions, but it's barely noticeable.
You must drive really slow as the Zoe can only do about 150 miles in the summer at 70 mph anyway at -4 you would do 115 max.
Idiling a ICE car for a few mins uses a tiny amount of fuel. Range loss in winter in an EV is much greater.
Use a digital camera in the cold to see how badly batteries perform in the cold.
Have a Peugeot e expert, loose 10 mile range in winter but feel I could reduce that by changing lighting to led and as a PV installer thinking of a panel on roof feeding 12v battery but may need to do this via can bus. Tricky.
Thanks for that. Very interesting. I think it comes back to range anxiety being a misnomer - the real anxiety is will the charger be there, will it work, will I have the right card/app/permission, will it be ICED/available? None of those issues apply when filling up with petrol.
I have had EVs for a few years now and have happily driven from Glasgow to London/Newcastle/Manchester many times. However I will be picking my son up from Uni just before Christmas which is a 450 mile round trip in a day. I can't face the stress of finding chargers etc etc in the freezing cold and dark with the inevitable higher number of cars on the road (wanting to charge), and more frequent charging requirement (even if only 20% more would mean one extra stop), so I will be taking the Petrol car this time. Don't judge me!
I would like to get some comments on the Tesla heat pump and the octovalve
Anyone with a MG ZS EV (not Long Range) that hasn't been through a winter yet - My findings:
Summer - 145 Miles (75% motorways 25% urban)
Winter - 120 Miles (75% motorways 25% urban)
Almost exactly what EVM says. He knows his shiznit.
If the car has a heat pump (model 3 2021 does I think) then the energy used to heat up by +X degC and power to maintain should be about roughly equal to the cooling by -X degC on a hot day.
I noticed Skoda are giving two lots of ranges, one for summer & one for winter which is a good guide. As you said these ranges are only a guide and not a guarantee.
I know from my Diesel car it is supposed to do about 52mpg but I've had it up to 70mpg & my EV is supposed to have a maximum range of 144 miles but I managed 180 miles & 5 miles left. So yes personal driving styles can alter the range of any vehicle.
During the fuel crises driving the electric car I didn't have to worry about being stuck in a queue & just charged up at home, saved time with that.
Skoda range is based on having a heat pump which is an expensive extra-better to buy an ev with heat pump as standard.
I do find an electric car heater is faster to warm the car as it does not have to warm the engine up 1st'
I melted the snow off the front window in minutes
Plus its much better to use a slower fan speed. more heat and uses less power to do.
you did miss that in winter the roads are more likely to be wet so less traction, so use more power but this is also for petrol cars too.
Be getting my first EV in a few days, be interesting to see how the winter goes 😏
You won't really notice until the warm weather comes, then you'll understand. This is my first winter with an EV, and 15-20% drop feels about right. With home charging it's not inconvenient, just noticeable. I still wouldn't go back to an ICE for anything.
I get auxiliary heating in my ICE just to avoid the 15 minutes scrape. I agree with your points though.
It isn’t actually a triple Whammy. If you heat the battery up then you won’t have efficiency losses from the battery being cold. At most it is a double Whammy.
Another very good video
It's worth remembering that heating the inside of an EV is a fairly fixed demand so it will be a much bigger percentage of a smaller battery. My Smart ForFour range drops at least 25% if I have the heater on high plus heated seats. That is of no concern to me but if you really do need its usual 60 miles range all year round don't get one !
Come across your video, as I have reviewed an EV (Mustang Mach-E) and uploaded on my channel!
An interesting point of view video chatting about range, one thing I've experienced recently by travelling from Land's End to John O'Groats to simulate a long distance journey, a simple exercise in a I.C.E vehicle (the reason I choose this route - some "journalists" thought it was acceptable to say EV's are capable of long journeys when it took them 12 more hours averaging under 30mph!)
1) I notice you own a Tesla, so already if you don't have a wall charger at home; you're able to charge more faster than other non Tesla EV owners
2) In my video, you'll see the battery performance in the Mach-E tested wasn't providing us anywhere near the range advertised despite 8 degree weather (not that cold in comparison to this video)
3) WLTP is completely flawed for EV's, Mach-E was meant to get 379 miles but didn't even get close to 260 miles!
As you pointed out, people are concerned more about range than efficiency; with the state of the charging infrastructure if you're not a Tesla owner, prices of EV in comparison to buying I.C.E, breaking even on investment, charging times, replacement battery & disposal etc - range whether in hot or cold conditions is sub par/very alarming!
Increased weight isn't a helpful factor for both range or the environment, a strange one considered most EV's are SUVs or as heavy as one 👀
I'm no EV expert (don't claim to be/never plan to) but I've based my opinions on real world experiences not only for commuting to work on a daily basis but attempting 838 miles too
Nevertheless, great video keep up the good work - all the best!
Using the 20% of my WLTP would be more like the very lowest i get in bad winter weather with my Ioniq 28kwh bev.
I almost get the exact wltp range in Summer with the Ioniq. Its a very efficient car at Motorway speeds due to its low Drag Co Efficient only matched by the Model3. Where I loose the range is as you mentioned with lots of Start/ Stop Heating and cooling of the car down to about 170km range during last week in Winter. So loosing 17- 20% of wltp . But your figures id say are more realistic for less Efficient Cars at higher speeds. Youll often see owners of the Kona and E-Nero get more than the wltp range but take a big hit in the Colder weather depending on their start/ stop usage
Love your videos, I am from across the pond.
Very useful information. Thank you!
What about winter,at night (head and tail lights) in the rain (windscreen wipers) in hilly areas (more power required) radio and gps running?
They all run off a 12V battery and use a tiny amount.
Hilly areas are hilly areas all year round, they don’t just come out in winter. 🤷♂️
They would also affect ICE just as much.
There is also a impact on range from having to use lights and wipers more in winter even though they work off 12v battery, this is obviosly charged off main traction pack.
You’d lose about 3 foot range!
About to get a new Mokka E.. would you say it is still around 20% even when using the preheat whilst plugged in?
So....does tapping the climate button on the app also preheat the battery as well as the cabin? That's what I do 10 mins before I leave the house when it's cold?
Depends on the car.
@@ElectricVehicleMan model 3 like yours
@@hibbs79 yes. Although Tesla recommend 30 mins.
@@ElectricVehicleMan thanks mate. 👍
I am seeing a similar range loss in my hybrid but still have more than enough to get to work and back every day. The pre heating is brilliant, especially as I never have to scrape the windscreen.
I have a Ford and dont have to do that either
Can you use quick clear without getting into the car. And side windows?
In the 1990s I had a Clifford alarm that would remotely start the car engine and defrost it. Then they banned that feature. I can now do it in summer to cool the cabin but not heat in winter (different car).
Another great vid, but I do question why you chose to drive and talk in snowy/icy weather and sometimes without hands on the wheel!!
Great video. My concern about winter driving is not that I lose c.20% of range but that if your journey is mostly motorway and your average speed is 75-80 mph (about the average on motorways) then you have already reduced your range because of speed. So for example if your EV gets 260 miles in an urban setting you might only 210 miles from a mostly motorway drive (still not a problem for me as that is longer than my bladder range) but in winter you might only get 170 miles of range. Add in fact that I would never drive until I was down to less 10% of battery unless I have no choice and effectively that gives me about 155 miles of real world range. That is slightly less than I would be comfortable with on the 2 long journeys I typically do regularly. That just means I need to buy the longer range version of whatever EV I finally decide on. If I can get 200 miles in winter on the motorway with 10% of battery left I am more than happy with the range because that is the absolute max I would travel without stopping in ICE car
This is what I said.
Compare the real world range of what you get in summer and knock 20% off.
Can’t compare summer urban range with winter motorway range for example.
I concur I run a a bmw i3s 120ah when using the cabin heater and 80% daily drive is dual carriageway I get a 20-25% range loss.
Hi mate, couple of questions I have bought an VW ID 3 tour getting it in a couple of weeks. It comes with a heat pump will that help my range in winter. Also do you know if the ID 3 tour has a battery thermal management system. Cheers
I’m not sure who works out these winter fuel figures on ICE cars. On very short journeys in winter - yes, mostly due to people warming the car up whilst stationary. My car gives me mpg figures via an app and I’ve checked them by refilling and doing the math. Last weekend a 100 mile journey in -1 deg to +3 deg was 58mpg, summer range for the same journey is 59.5mpg. I’ve done this multiple times for years!
Mine drops off about 5mpg in winter.
I think modern small all aluminium engines struggle to keep themselves warm enough (less thermal mass).
Maybe blocking off some of the grill might help me. But it's not really enough for me to essentially care.
You're absolutely right, but of course, you can always use an electric preheater for your old petrol car, both a compartment preheter and a motor preheater. Of course it's not as effective as an EV. In a petrol car I would preheat for at least an hour. At -30 °C I would preheat a petrol car for three hours and use a timer switch. Using 10 minutes each morning scraping the windows is just madness no matter petrol or EV.
A couple of other factors you didn’t mention are the increased drag from higher density air in the cold, mostly effecting motorway journeys and then the road surface which is typically wet or in your case snow and slush which again increase drag.
That effects all cars, not just EVs. This was the unique aspects.
Did fitting Cross Climates impact the range on your Model3..?
Great video as always EVM (what's your 1st name by the way?), obviously the first commenter wasn't listening.
Err, it's Andy - and so is his.......!
Reason 4: Cold air, for a given pressure, occupies less volume making it denser! So aerodynamic drag is therefore higher. Also, for the same reason your tyre pressures are lower. So make sure you topup the tyre pressures!
I was talking about factors that are specific to EVs. Cold air effects all cars.
Bigger here with winters colder. I wish it were 20%. Probably closer to 1/3 from normal. US Kona no heat pump. At least it warms quickly, and the efficiency is great in good weather.
Does your m3 have the heat pump? Just wondering how much that helps?
Mine doesn't, I think it's more of a benefit on longer trips.
I’ve always liked the tech in EV’s to look after the batteries. I’ve watched of a certain Norway Ninja to know EV’s work even going to the artic circle 😉
When people see a EV car defrost itself, granted it may take a week of a cold snap before they notice and think wait a minute…the penny drops. But hey who doesn’t like snapping a door open that’s frosted up plus for cars that have frameless like the mini hatch windows fight the motor to lower to so it can open then sit inside freezing to run the Car till it warms up. Yes you can leave the ice Car running itself but that’s frowned upon.
Great video. Yep, I’d agree on thinking what you say, I’d say I loose 20% in the winter in my e-Niro. P.S I’m originally from the same area so love to see where you’re driving, I see you finished in Crossflatts.
On a recent day with single digit (5-8F) temps I started with 171 miles on the battery. I drove 24 miles and ended with 108 miles remaining.
That's using the guess-o-meter though, it goes up and down wildly.
What would you think of my use case of a van, used to make 6 to 10 drops a day. Probably have to open the doors for a couple of minutes at each drop. Would I lose all my eat.
The interior of the vehicle is heat soaked and will retain much of the heat. Plus heated seats can be a comfort blessing.
It will have an effect, it has to. Likely not much though.
Many EV's have heat pumps as options. Does this make much difference in reality? Manafacturers claim 30% more efficient heating in winter. Does that actually make difference to loss of range?
Hi, great video. Had our Kia Soul EV with 64kwh battery for about 3 months, was getting nearly 330 miles on the dash display after a full charge at first, now it's getting colder, a full charge only shows around 285 miles. Do the batteries charge less efficiently in winter? will I get back to nearly 330 miles on the dash in the warmer months?
Yes.
Our 30 kWh Leaf loses about 40% of real world range in a worst case winter scenario, running AC and heating on full power, but of course Leaf owners are a hardy bunch and tend to prioritise range over comfort. Our next EV will have thermal battery management and a heat pump.
30 Leaf has a heat pump.
@EVM biggest factor to range loss is "Air Resistance"
Winter = more dense air = more drag from air resistance.
The temperature is a bigger factor on battery consumption when idle over a cold night and during heating if you didnt pre heat etc.
I was talking about factors that are specific to EVs. Cold air effects all cars.
Great video. Very informative. Don’t hv an electric car yet because Ireland hasn’t woken up to installing public chargers. Everyone afraid to go fully electric because of that. But hope to change from diesel next year maybe if I can afford it. Maybe a plug in hybrid to start. Any recommendations? What make is your car? Looks very comfortable and big inside and no noise.
Ireland do hv public chargers but not enough. Only a few in some service stations and towns.
This past week, 60% battery = 90 miles, mostly 1-4 mile town driving, short trips. Chilled driving. Model 3
Excellent advice, many thanks.
I’d love to know how much per night an EV looses overnight when parked outside. I suspect that you need to keep the car plugged in to charge them. My preference is to park a car in a garage but that seems not to be the fashion now days.
There are major cities that experience temperatures approaching -35'C in winter. I'm in Canada living in a city with a population of about a million. It was -47'C with wind chill outside a few days ago. This is where concerns with charging and range are justified.
A petrol engine uses only 30-35% of its fuel to move the car with 65-70% being lost in heat. This means that petrol is really 2 to 3 times more expensive than we think it is. Any stated mileage for an ICE engine should be reduced by this amount when comparing to an electric car mileage.
Real world range test on our Citroen e-C4 today.
Mrs T went 25 miles each way on a cold winters night on a mixture of A roads in traffic. Started with car charged up to full, Plugged in and preconditioned. Range 198 miles. Her return range is now 85 miles, so 115 miles range used on a 50 mile journey.
Citroen are supposed to be bringing a software update to improve the real world range - I hope it works
In normal winter driving its not a warm car even with the heating set to 21. It's a good job we have heated seats
A 200 mile range is achievable in summer with careful use of the accelerator and generally following the traffic.
We really like the car but winter range is very poor and we wouldn't attempt a long distance journey, especially with unreliable public chargers everywhere. Good job we have a diesel second car.
What did the "Range 198 miles" mean? Is that a fixed rating or a guessometer based on driving?
@@AnonYmous-rw6un It's more of a guessometer as the car doesn't know how you are going to drive it. Based on 6 months ownership through summer and now winter the real world range has really fallen since the cold weather arrived. In summer I would say its fairly accurate based on driving steadily but not its winter range as no amount of slow driving in ECO + B mode will get near the predicted range.
Plenty of reliable Osprey and Instavolt chargers around.
my i3 range drops from 120ish miles to anywhere between 80 and 90 depending upon how often I have to run the heater to de fog the windscreen. I try to rely on my heated seats rather than the heater but the windscreen fogs up then i have to run the heater until it clears and that really chews my battery life - every EV should have a heated windscreen as standard and I dont know why they dont have it! (I dont have a home wallbox so defrosting the car uses battery range)
I would also say the use of heat to warm up the battery or cool it down is throwing money out the window. An engine doesn’t need to do that, and takes 2-3 minutes to warm up.
A battery takes 20-30 minutes. You definitely need to be well educated if you are buying EV. A lot to consider.
A petrol engine has an entire system dedicated to keeping it from overheating. Radiators, coolant! It’s a huge waste of money.
Petrol engines are around 35% efficient, electric motors are 90%.
Literally not even close.
Interesting. Just a thought my VW Up tsi blue motion ice 2 ways work m25 27miles vs A320 25 miles . Very very early in morning A320 62mpg vs M25 70mpg. Not sure everything you say right. (Just a side note I do want an ev)
Good video, useful info for when I have to buy an EV in ten years time...
Something you did not mention... getting stuck is a snow drift overnight or on a road blocked by stranded lorries. I would rather be in an electric car with the quiet heating on than in an ICE car and worrying about carbon monoxide poisoning. It does happen.
How do you get on with rear wheel drive in the snow?
I suppose if an EV has a good range as standard then having reduced range during cold spells isn't too much of an issue..
Those with a smaller range EV do have a worrying drop...
These vehicles do need a 400 mile range as a minimum so they can cope with cold weather and higher motorway speeds..
I do notice EVs on the autoroute driving at 110km/h (slow) so they actually get the advertised range.. This is big issue for long range trips..
Once again a minimum of 400 miles but preferably 500 miles would then negate these issues... Unfortunately too many vehicles are still badly lacking in range.. 100kW battery with hyper efficient battery efficiency perhaps?
My old Toyota C-HR did ~48 mpg in the winter and 58 mpg in the summer. That's 17% reduction for the winter so 20% for an EV is pretty much the same... What causes a big drop of range is many short journeys in the winter when the cabin is heated up/cooled down, again and again... There again I don't make many long journeys in the winter. Still I rather have my Tesla SR+ any day to an ICE car.
I’m a taxi driver with a Kia eniro 3, no heat pump. 285 miles in summer, 235 now if I don’t have the heating on. About 210 if I have the heater on. 🤷♂️
Spoke to a neighbour who bought an EV asked him about the range, salesman quoted around 240 to 260 miles per charge, in winter with heating on, or summer with air con he averages just about half of that, criminal.
You didn't mention cold air being denser, adding more drag.
Or rain/snow/headwind, but trying to keep it simple i expect.
Where does it end?
In summer you're more likely to have the window down which increases drag a lot more than dense air.
There's been detailed and then there's been detailed.
Once the engine is at its optimum operating temperature, the engine will have normal efficiency and keeping the cabin warm is a bonus of the heat produced by the internal combustion engine. Cold air is denser and therefore richer in oxygen, therefore better combustion and power. The electric fan will work less or not at all. All this does not mean that the efficiency of internal combustion engines is good, but I do not want to spend every day planning my car trips as if it were a plane trip.
@@leonelpestana9010 That statement tells me you’ve zero experience of an EV.