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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- I cover Halo's current Sandbox and give my thoughts on all the current and upcoming changes to halo infinite!
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I've got a lot of rebuttals to what you've said in this video, but I'll stick with what I think is the most important one:
If people don't want to watch the event, there will be no pro scene. Your perception of competitive integrity doesn't take priority over what will bring in an audience.
This problem started in Halo 4, and I don't think it's a coincidence that pros became more involved with the games' development since that installment. The solution isn't to listen to the pros: The competitive insights team should be dissolved. The solution is to make a fun game. Any successful competitive title will develop a competitive scene.
We have three titles now where 343 has allowed the pros to make decisions that harm the experience for the rest of us. That needs to end or we will continue to go through this cycle.
Tashi and Heinz have stifled the potential of HCS and ranked by keeping the map list stagnant as well. There are many great forge maps that have never been given a chance in the two year span of us playing maps like Streets, Catalyst, Aquarius, and Argyle. The pros have done next to nothing to support the forge community either.
You summed up my biggest disagreement far better than I could have said it, thank you friend. It's just not much fun to watch if they're throwing away over half of the sandbox, including most of the unique stuff.
@@FishAlmighty I'm not saying 343 isn't responsible for all the shortcomings the series has had since they took over. They have made terrible decisions all throughout the time they have had control of the series. One of those terrible decisions that has not yet been rectified is having a competitive insights team. 343 is at fault for allowing pros to have as much influence over the balancing of the game as they do.
the issues started in reach when we had to play gray sactuary and go from bloom to 85 percent bloom then we got to play Halo Infinite beta early when they made the DMR zero bloom. Ps i hope lucid never gets control of decisions like these
How does a ga affect you lmao get a grip
Tbh, GA's or not, increasing the ranked sandbox or not, casuals won't watch the Pro scene.
The majority of the HCS viewership is, and has always been the more competitive players, the ranked players, etc.
Saying the Sandbox/GAs will stop casuals from watching isn't accurate, cuz casuals never cared to watch HCS or even MLG back in the day, nor do they care about the comp/ranked side of the game, they play BTB and Firefight, and some quickplay, that's really it.
My belief on why casuals are so against the GA's and how pros choose to play the game, is less because "It'll make HCS too boring for them to want to watch", and more that they think GA's will lead to changes in the entire games sandbox, that being removing guns off social maps or nerfing guns outright. It could be possible 343i could come in and nerf the Shotty and Heatwave in response, but the better solution would be to just increase the respawn rate in HCS for these guns.
Heatwave needs to stay, it's unique, fun, and is not busted while also being strong
Exactly. Plus, it's unique to halo infinite overall. It needs to stay. I agree some things can go. But I also strongly believe some things should stay for sure. The AR has to go. Keep it the way it is for socials it's in a great spot. But it doesn't need to be in ranked at all.
I love the skewer. Moving targets, tracking about 1ft in front and it's a satisfying kill cuz you actually have to check wind and star alignment b4 firing lol.
It also blocks the third right side of your view and has flight drop. I always get pumped when I get a skewer kill.
I get what you're saying about out playability with Bandit/snipe/br but I don't feel like people give enough credit to map control, weapon control, situation awareness etc. I feel like if you are caught in a small room against a shot gun while you're holding a snipe there should be a 99% chance you're fucked. Only a huge skill gap or stupid luck could save you. People should get punished for weapon choice and I don't like when 1 weapon makes all others obsolete. It makes the game boring and less about strategy
Yeah, the Bulldog being present on Streets makes the game more dynamic because it counters the Stalker. Now Stalker and camo are the only noteworthy items on the map, which means less effort in controlling the sandbox, making the macro-level strategy a lot more straightforward. I feel like if pros were being consistent about maximizing skill, rockets would've been done away with a while ago and replaced by the Ravager or Hydra.
@@TheGawd100 it kind of seems like they want to just shoot at each other from across the map with single shot weapons. That's boring if that's the whole game
My teammate made fun of me in ranked yesterday for using the shotgun. I’m still using these weapons as ranked is getting boring enough as it is
Yeah it's in the game, I'm using it. I don't give a f what you feel like
@@qigongkylar944that’s fine. You aren’t a top player on a top team. Do what you want.
Breakingshot was using it vs me yesterday it doesn’t matter in ranked
@@Hushed_1 right what I’m saying lol
basically, if you get the jump on someone, there's no chance of reaction or reversal. So that has made everyone just sit corners all day long.
This is why I was thinking damage should be ~3% nerfed, changing it to an *8* shot body (still 5 perfect). That'd be the same perfect vs body killtime difference as the battle rifle, and reversals would be more possible if your strafe's good.
I feel like heatwave has enough nuance to still be in it.
it does
0 spare mags then yeah. Also the Skewer with 3 shots could fit on one map someday, none are a good for it yet though
@@cweb1988 I think it should definitely be in. It's only useful close to medium range anyway. Bandit from range will absolutely destroy heatwave so I don't understand why people complain.
You can also damage/kill yourself with the ricochet, so it definitely his a risk/reward factor to it unlike the bulldog. It should definitely be in play.
@@zachb.7275 agreed I've fucked myself up with it plenty of times
GA's really ruin the viewing experience
I disagree. Competitive Halo has always been a barebones sandbox.
@@reckiuhwhat’s that even mean?
@@serballista Halo 3 was BR/Snipe/Rockets/Mauler/Carbine - and no one picked up mauler or carbine.. (for example)
@@reckiuh okay, so you’re saying that only (for example) 3 guns matter? I mean, I guess that makes sense. Though, guns like the AR & Plasma Pistol are combo weapons or “utility” weapons. With the AR you hose ‘em down before finishing them with a melee, with the plasma pistol you noob combo with a charged shot + a headshot from any precision weapon (BR, Carbine, Magnum etc.).. So like I wouldn’t quite say H3 was barebones as much as it was experimental. H3 has a lot of guns with different niches (regardless is they’re super effective or not)
Halo 2 sword and plasma pistol were pretty broken . They sucked to die to but pros dealt with it
yeah they dealt with it cause everyone could use it and it wasn’t hard to abuse the game. Pro players actually want to incorporate skill into the game now vs back then
There was at least the potential to outplay sword with positioning+BxB/BxR
If skill wasnt in the game how did FB win constantly bozo@@sakarilawrence6342
Completely disagree, there needs to be more weapons added to ranked before they start taking more and more out. It’s boring gameplay, with same few weapons constantly being used
totally agree. We need way more weapons.
Did you watch the second half of the video where he talked about adding weapons back in?
lol no
Something like COD has like 5 weapons with 100 variants each
It used to be f*ing epic watching Lucid being the only guy slaying out with the sidekick, with the beam, with the heatwave, sizzle sticks, and everything (and everyone else was all BR only). Now it’s basically just “Bandit only or you’re a noob”. So sad
yup
Did you even watch the video?
Agree completely. And yes genius, we watched the video. Lucid is amazing at this game and I value his insight on what the pros are thinking. Even now knowing that, we have enough independence to disagree. Shocking, huh?!
I appreciate the video Lucid - I wish more professional players would take time to explain the thought process and reasoning behind decisions like "GAs" from the professional prospective.
One thing I would like to hear about that I don't think you spoke on here is twofold:
1. There is a lot of talk, and you use language similarly here, of a kill of a certain weapon "not being respected" but then there is then no explanation for that fundamentally subjective opinion. Obviously, what is likely meant by that sort of phraseology is "X weapon is easier to get a kill with then Y weapon, therefore X is not as respected." But it seems that rarely is that subjective defense thought out to where an answer to the ultimate question of "Why does that matter?" is given (note: I am not saying you are doing that here - but when I see discourse about this on Twitter/Reddit/etc, there is rarely well thought-out defense for a position given.) Which leads me into part 2:
2. Why is it that weapons, such as the AR, Disruptor, Bulldog, etc, that are currently "GA'd", which also currently have reduced ammo on pick up and on the "red rack" system, not seen as another variable to account for, scheme and strategize for, and play around, as other elements? Does not a more diverse, if even a more powerful, sandbox to have to account for raise the skill ceiling for teams?
Sure, a Bulldog might be an "easy" kill - but did not the team/player who secures the weapon outplay, to some degree, the other player/team for it?
Those are partially loaded questions with various degrees of answers, some of which are "obvious" - but I rarely see that level of nuance discussed by professionals on any platform with any degree of seriousness. Instead it's just memed on by professionals. Clearly, you are not doing that here and I appreciate it so much. You are the text-book definition of a professional in how you carry yourself and represent the sport. We need more of what you did here by your peers. Please keep this sort of stuff up!
If you read this far, thank you. I'm just a random fan but I care a lot about Halo esports and so just like to see deep iteration and conversation and solid "whys" for things like you did here.
Exactly, I mean halo is supposed to be a game you can recover from. If you only have to worry about camo, then you can control the map once you get a power position.
If the goal is to just take out all but the precision weapons, why are we playing halo? They are weapons you can pick up to turn the tide when you are behind and they got an oddball locked down on one side of the map.
Why do pros want so badly to have your starting weapon be the best weapon in all situations. It's okay for sword to be there for cqb, and shock for long range, and precision for mid range. Ooh, I have to actually plan for the enemy to have benefits at different ranges and I can't just dump on a slightly lesser player when they are at range when I have a commando.
I am not a pro, so my opinion doesn't matter, just saying pros are trying to make the game easier. And force the game to go to aiming skill, whereas halo has always been about pickups, map control, returns, and strategy(where to place players). You aren't meant to always be able to turn on someone and outplay them..
@@youjying Exactly. They frame this like a pure increase to skill when it's actually just minimizing the need for skill when it comes to controlling the sandbox. It just centralizes the outcome of the game around accuracy by making map control easier. I don't know why these people aren't just playing CounterStrike or something. The shotguns in every other Halo would've just killed you outright in these one shot melee situations.
@@TheGawd100 because that's what makes it a sport.....it's about precision, skill, and teamwork in a controlled and limited environment. And there ARE elements of controlling sandbox with power-ups and power weapons. Starting guns need to be standardized and there can't be a massive sandbox of unbalanced weapons all over the map. It also makes map design and balancing much harder the more weapon variables there are.
Think about playing or watching am olympic soccer game where some people had cleats, some people were barefoot, and some people where allowed to use there hands randomly (not just the goal keeper). It wouldn't be a sport anymore....it'd just be a cluster f' of a game.
@@cweb1988 Starting weapons are standardized, so I don't know why that needs to be stated. And you're just wrong, controlling the elements on the map is part of the sport and always has been. It's like saying basketball isn't a sport because it's so easy for teams to score compared to soccer. If a pure test of precision is what you want, those games already exist, hence why I said they should just be playing games like that. There's also nothing random about how the game was set up. The actual comparison would be that nobody had cleats or could could touch the ball unless the players met certain conditions that were specified. I agree it wouldn't be soccer anymore, but it can absolutely still be a competitive game, even if you find it difficult to follow or not enjoyable to watch.
I also never said they eliminated sandbox control completely, I said they minimized it, which they objectively have. There were 2 power weapons on Streets, hardly a "massive sandbox of unbalanced weapons." The bulldog was balanced, there was one on the map, it excels close range, but is useless from far away and requires at least 2 (usually 3) shots to kill or a shot into a melee unlike every other game where shotguns were more powerful.
@@TheGawd100 I mean ya. I was fine with how it was before so the GAs are whatever to me….don’t think they’re necessary really although I think the bulldog could be replaced or changed. I’m more saying that we shouldn’t have a full
Vanilla sandbox or a ton of different guns on the map.
just a month or two ago, you said there needs to be more sandbox, had a whole feud with bound over it too I think, now you are saying the few fun weapons we had on the map need to be taken off as well.. at this point I have realized pros are never going to be happy
Bingo. They'll never be happy.
The sandbox is often blamed but its really the weapon placements, the Ranked Doubles playlist maps seem to understand the competitive philosophy.
Bring the sentinel beam back!
The sentinel beam has the has the same problem as the AR
@@DanynFineFutureConsiderationsdisagree, most people didn't even pick it up bc they couldn't aim it
Lots of coping in this video. I think many Halo Fans are disappointed that pros pushed GAs days after the sandbox update before the meta changes level out. It was definitely premature if viewers and 343 could see the in-balance first hand in an online qualifier then maybe the community would be more open to changes or in the case of 343 balancing readjustments.
This is a near impossible problem to solve for 343 because as pro players, or really just any competent player, you're going to play to a weapons strengths. The AR, Bulldog, Heatwave, and Disruptor are close range weapons. They are significantly less accurate at mid to long ranges, so playing aggressive, tight and in corners are these weapons strengths. There are so few dials for 343 to turn to make these weapons 'feel' more competitive compared to the precision weapons.
That’s why I think shotties work better on open maps with a lot of sight lines. They’re still really strong but the impact is much more limited.
Bingo yes
Yeah I think the pros just don't want then in their tournaments period. 343 won't make an hcs playlist which is a huge cause of the issue.
@@Jamesmcc117 "pro" halo players dont even exist as far as Im concerned. This game is 100% casual bullshxt now.
@suntzu6122 Well, lucid just bought a nice house with the money he made from the profession that doesn't exist. Lol, some of you all are weird.
I think that they could fix some of the issues with shotguns by not only having them have one mag of ammo but also have their weapon racks be actual weapon pads. Meaning that they would have a longer spawn timer and have a big glowing logo that everyone can see instead of somebody pulling a sneaky grab and suddenly this weapon is in play and once it's out you have to try and keep track of when it's coming back. On the other hand I also don't enjoy people playing corners and getting shot melee'd for or running into one and praying I have a sticky or the other guy just misses all their shots
As someone that doesn’t play competitive/ranked but watches HCS I always find videos like this interesting because I would assume most casual players probably wonder why or complain that pros don’t use certain weapons… Well now we have a more in depth look as to why. Some weapons are much more obvious (like the mangler back in year 1) I am very interested in the follow up video you mentioned Tommy 👍
I watched every second of this video and yes, PLEASE make that follow-up video about what tunings you think would make every weapon fit com play.
What if they introduced a new weapon class something like: "Power Support Weapons"
Being marked on the map to all players,
and having weapons like, Green gun, Sentinel Beam, Hydra, Magler, Disruptor, maybe a Shotty (with nerfs)
Giving these weapons more insentive/priorty to pick them up on the map
17:45, I still disagree. snipe and shock are still just as simple and powerful as shotties. Just have different range categories. If you're in a hallway, shotties are gonna rock. If you're across the map, it's trash. It's a better argument to say the snipers and bandits are broken as they are usable across every situation.
These GAs are not only confusing for viewers, but also boring, and not AT ALL what halo 1 and 2(The foundation of the series) are about. Halo's competitive multiplayer has suffered tremendously since H3's sterilization of the sandbox.
Halo is designed to be about controlling power-ups/weapons, and positions. Pros today would GA the snipe, rockets, shotty, and pistol in CE if they got it today.
I still love watching the HCS, and understand a lot of the previous GA's but this is silly and stale.
100% agree with Skewer and Sentinel Beam.
this is probably one of the few times i see someone actually realize what halo 3 did to the series. dont get me wrong i love h3 and watching it but this whole bs started from this game. especially with the 1 dimensional symmetrical maps aka the pit. what an awful map.
I think they should focus primarily on tuning weapons for a more general audience, but there should be a pro game mode where settings and maps are changed for pros. Less weapons, either by removal or reducing the amount of time until they respawn.
This sandbox constant change is aggravating. Every move should have a counter. Also can't stand the aim assist moving and activating before players enter the aim marker. 3 years in shouldn't be. lets face it, the ones in control of this game need to go.
I agree. Even as a casual who plays ranked, i got into ranked slayer on forest and was baffled that every single weapon is on that map and spawns constantly. We had 2 swords on the map and 2 shotties and heat waves.... It just felt like a quick play game. Just didnt feel competitive. I was going off about it and then half way through a dude came on comms and was agreeing like "yo wtf is this, i had to double check if this was ranked"
Could you please discuss the viability of the Sandwich?
I would love to see a long form discussion where you and Snakebite make your alls version of the sandbox.
im curioius what your thoughts are on the pulse carbine i personally never saw it dramatically abused at highlevel play. it was a great assit machine if you were running a good team shot. and the shots were dodgeable so i never saw it as OP. i is one of the more unique weapons in the sandbox
Loved this video, and would absolutely enjoy seeing that follow-up video you mentioned. Really appreciate that you showcased the variety the current sandbox still has while also listing top candidates for being added back in. Hope you find time to make that next video and keep up the grind!
This is a really good video and I think more pros should do this kind of video as well. Because from my understanding, a lot of pros seem to be pretty harsh when they say their opinion over the internet, but are more constructive in "private" or whatever. But that feedback isn't being heard/respected enough and that seems to lead towards rage and frustration over on Twitter, TH-cam etc. And that makes the casuals think that the pro scene seems toxic and whiny.
Videos like this will make the pro scene look better, create more discussions and create a better understanding between casuals and pros.
I personally want to have every single weapon to be used in Ranked tbh, BUT it should be implemented the right way. Like weapon balancing, spawn time, location and I think each map should have 6-8 weapons on the map, 10 at absolute max!
I think there should be 2-4 Equipments on the map and the same goes for nades.
As a Forger myself, it's pretty boring to make Ranked maps, due to the limited sandbox and I want to respect the pros by adding the weapons that they like and can respect. But I also want to create a unique experience between each map. I don't want to create a Ranked Fiesta on my maps, so that's why I create a limited sandbox on the map. By that I can use other sandbox items for the other maps to make the experience more unique and interesting.
Idk, that's how I feel
I don’t agree with you but I appreciate the video. And I do sympathize with the issue of 343 not really working with you guys.
It only seems this way because of how the maps are designed
Came back to this. For onyx+, I'd give Disruptor 0 spare mags. Use it like equipment, then; tactically and sparingly.
Halo finite's sandbox is like a kitty litter tray with shit eveywhere and only ever gets fixed when abousultey nessacarry.
They definitely should just separate the social and comp sandboxes. I don’t necessarily always want to play with comp weapons in social, and I definitely don’t want to play with all the social weapons in ranked. Just tune the weapons to the pro and casual play style. Trying to balance one sandbox between both doesn’t really work.
They could make "Ranked" variants of the weapons like the legendary weapon version. Retuned for ranked.
I think this would be the best idea, that's how halo 3 was where mlg had only precision weapons while social had everything else it just makes the most sense they definitely should just stop trying to balance the weapons between the two
yeah they keep trying to have the best of both worlds. just change settings for pro play and that’s it
I think more powerups and power weapons. Halo ce had 4 shot rockets, camo, overshield, 2 snipes, shotguns, spawned with 3 shot pistol and ar on like every competitive map.
Might as well do bandits only. Every close range gun fight ends in a trade
Apg beat u guys? Damn
I miss the pistol pre nerf
a reminder that you can choose to ignore GAs in your ranked games
Ok so what is GA?
I think it stands for general agreement, so pretty much the pro players all agreed to removal of certain weapons in rank and in tournament
@@neworleanskidd4 It stands for "gentleman's agreement". It's when competitors agree on a ruleset different from the official one.
I wish people talked about the melee more. It's a huge part of the sandbox. The melee lunge range is too long. The melee aim assist is absurd. Sometimes the melee AA will snap my screen 90 degrees as it follows a target. Melee lunge range should be reduced, the melee range itself slightly increased, and aim assist should be drastically reduced.
Oh, and get rid of reticle drag on the Spankr, please. I'm not trying to aim at the body of the target, I'm trying to aim at a specific part of the map near them. So frustrating how often the reticle drag pulls my reticle away from that spot and the target strafes or jumps nearby.
Ive never seen anyone do anything impressive with the disruptor.
His take on the skewer is why he should never make decisions
It's fine that pros want to GA certain weapons but I think the game studio takes pro concerns more seriously maybe too seriously than everyone else, and our experience suffers when we play ranked or socials. I think the drop tech was nice when we had it, snap slide etc, they removed pulse carbine, added forge maps that cause the game to have lag issues into ranked because it was competitive on older Halo games etc. All this to appease pros while the cries of the general population go unheard. The complaints about bad servers, glitches, cheaters and smurfs. All ignored. 🤷♀️
The other issues are ignored because they cant fix them
What an ignorant comment. If you think 343 ignores the social community, they hear pros even less. Why would 343 listen to the Pro community (already a small part of the competitive playerbase) about changes to weapons that they don't use on maps that they don't play for game modes that they don't matchmake into? If you actually think about it for two nanoseconds, it doesn't make any sense.
The fact is that 343 has no idea of what to do to keep everyone happy, so it instead excludes everyone. Did you know that Pros didn't want the Mangler one-tap-melee gone (which is back already)? They only wanted it less available. Guess what happened?
@@LuisRamirez-fe3gn No. You're ignorant. HCS is where 343 makes it's most money. Every time there is an HCS, player population increases for a small amount of time. HCS is the cash cow for 343, so the opinions of pros hold far more weight than people who casually play the game and go on to play others. But why have other games like COD and Fortnite retained their population? Because they cater mostly to their casual population. I'm not saying Halo should be like those other games but the devs should take very seriously the complaints of the casual population as much as the pros. They can't please everyone but they should address the main issues which is dealing harshly with cheaters, a hard stance against smurfing, and getting the servers balanced. There is no reason in the world why we should have server issues on a game with a low population. None!
@@LuisRamirez-fe3gn Why should we play buggy forge maps in ranked? Why can't they make new competitive maps that play best in this game like "Live fire, streets, recharge etc?" Why do we need H5 and H3 maps in ranked? Explain that shit.
@@vigilantestylez The problems with Infinite are so deep-rooted into the game, that 343 is just trying to scrape by with what they have, including lack of personnel to make new maps, develop and test new game modes, and create new sandbox items. If you actually paid attention, you'll notice that Infinite's current approach is to get enough money to survive, so obviously resources must be redirected towards that goal.
Clear enough for me, clear enough for you?
Love the content Tommy. Thanks for your thoughts on all the weapons. Look forward to a deeper look into what you would do for each weapon to make it into the comp scene.
As an HCS fan, it would be nice to see the other weapons come back.
We need an HCS playlist like the old MLG playlist
They just need to make a “competitive variant” of most, if not all, weapons.
Why has this not been suggested?
They need to add more vehicles and weapons to BTB. And they need more maps for firefight mode
I still would've preferred an 8-shot bandit to the body.
I felt AR was borderline pre-bandit nerf and AR rework. Folks, it's *never* been used in competitive halo... not even in CE. So I can understand the GA for AR. Bulldog's self-explanatory. Heatwave has a bit of skill to it and 0 spare mags + higher tier could be allowed on 1 map, spawning less & with an icon.
I'd like the skewer back, 3 shots, sort of a rockets-sniper compromise. You nailed my thoughts on the skewer. Idk what map I'd put it on though.
Finally, ravager could work for area denial. Would need to be careful though as it could be oppressive in raw damage and melees.
Thanks for making this video! It helps listening to the behind the scenes and gives us an idea of why the GA's are in place. I wonder what your thoughts are on this, but I wish there was an HCS Playlist that was designed and made the way the game was played in the pro scene! I know it probably would not work because of player population, but it would be cool if it was a thing. Keep it up Lucid, thanks for the content
Not sure why ranked didn't just have the same settings as HCS anyways
@@TravisParnell Yeah, I agree with that. I definitely would prefer HCS settings. same maps and all
thanks for sharing.. alot great knowledge..
Ravager would be really cool to see in a comp environment. Give it a power weapon spawn and 50% charge instead of max 100
I need a railgun of H5
Interesting that the railgun was stronger than heatwave or shotty, but never GA'd
@@zeroshotkill Interesting the Scattershot was never GA'd either, but now shotguns dominating in close range is an issue
Thank you for this. It is really interesting to hear the pro thoughts that went into this. I know for me I was caught offguard with the GA because, while I had heard you mumble some things, this did feel dramatic at a time when we weren't expecting sandbox update and at the time no one could really get matches that first day before the GAs came out. However if it's how the pros feel, at least for a tourney, then I do feel we should have a little more trust in the overall conclusion our Halo teams come to.
Seperately I would keep considering the Disruptor return with its semi low TRK But I'm not sure its reserve ammo count in Ranked
Hey Tommy, massive respect to your work ethic and faith. I just want to say it's clear how hard you work against the efforts of 343, and I for one am praying for your success regardless of the state of halo.
(not even a green wall guy, just respect you as a man)
remember when Halo was made to be fun? Lucid clearly dosn't remember.
Since y'all GA'd the AR, tell the devs to return it to what it was before the update.
Want to get this straight
The assault rifle is now worse at longer range, and that's a good thing, because now it secures kills at close range better, which means you need even less skill to use it at the appropriate ranges and using skill at all is impossible at the longer ranges
And that's a good thing?
We want to make the assault rifle impossible to miss with at close range? We want to make the assault rifle impossible to hit with at long range?
So what guns are still in play? Bandit. BR. Sniper?
Love to see these kind of content tommy
Ppl are just fake outraged about all of this lol. It's how social media is. The pro scene doesn't need an AR lol. What I do believe though is halo should have ranked modes and the e sports mode be separate. For the next halo obviously. Back in h3, we had ranked, and we had MLG. Ranked should not be using GA that pros use. The e sports playlist should be for ppl who want to play like the pros.
You didn't mention sword and sword could come back into comp IF... No Aim Assist at all. Trigger does a lunge sword attack forward, melee just swings at a stand still. If you wiff your swing it costs ammo. And then cap the ammo at like 4-6 swings
I think I'm gonna make a similar video on how to make comp out of Husky Raid with the HCS comp sandbox in mind, but it generally follows the same rule. Needs to be risk v reward for the cheesy weapons and skill for the others.
Great video! Now get these wins!
i love these discussions keep it up
The other issue Tommy is that Halo is known for having power weapons. We can’t GA all power weapons because they’re “overpowered”. It’s just the point of them and they are rewarded for having map control
So you can respect point click precision but not terrain negotiation to get within the effective range of the heat wave and bulldog?
Coming soon: pros have GA’d pulling the flag. Holding the oddball is GA now. And, standing in the hill is GA’d. It’s too op.
The should bring back the nade launcher of Halo Reach
Problem: guns are too easy and consistent (100% agree by the way). 343 could lower 50% the AA values in an afternoon and make all the sandbox rewarding to use and problem will be solved.
Carbine, Beam Rifle, and Fuel Rod Gun still missing and they do fit a role no other weapon has
We just need to let hcs have their own build of the game like in the mlg days ...
Here's how to fix the shotty; bring back the classic shotgun
Bring back STRAFING is the answer.
what FOV do you play on?
Bring back the needler
As a sidenote, it sucks that you could not create a playlist where these weapons dont spawn in. Or different guns in their stead. Youd have to exercise more discpline in the hear of the moment. Hell if 100k was on the line, you break a GA at an event, then what?
Going to miss seeing the heatwave in competitive. Less Ammo in it from the start may remedy.
343i says they care about Halo, but since they took over the franchise time and time again they have shown they give 0 fucks about the franchise and the player base
Can they put the mangler back in then? It's got an interesting place in the sandbox being a projectile-based weapon with dropoff. Especially since they removed the one-shot beatdown from it in ranked, it could alternate with the pistol.
I'd love to see you playing old halos like 4 and 3.
The skewer is an unsatisfying weapon to play against: either you immediately die or get a kill against a defenceless enemy…
Couldn’t you say the same about any 1 hit kill weapon
343 I hope you're watching this.
As a long time halo fan, this is what made me leave the game early 2022. Halos weapons are so crucial to its fun and when it's off, it ruins the fun.
'sometimes you don't get those one shot melees'
I'm sorry, what game have you been playing? The rest of us have been playing a game where we frequently either back smack each other or just completely Miss because there is no melee jump
Lucid and others talking about weapons taking skill but ignore the fact that the bandit is so much easier than the BR. The aim assist is so broken with the bandit. Its too easy to use.
One shot melee on mangler does feel kinda op
Yeah I get some weapons are so easy to use, some are free kills, but that's point, the strategy to control those weapons, that's why those weapons are on pads and not starting weapons.. the team that control them win and as viewer that is what interest me the most, the fight to control the map and dominate the sandbox and having variety, 8 weapons are a low number of variety specially when not every map has those 8 weapons every game, the number of weapons still goes down. Watching bandit vs bandit or br vs br gets old really quick specially for 9 hours a day, and you see it on viewers count in every hcs, if there wasn't drops the numbers would be lower
Also as a casual as much i respect pros and their skill I don't want pros to dictate how a weapon works outside ranked, ranked and casual should be two separate entities
Basically, you hate the shotgun and anything that gives players easy kills, and you want competitive Halo to always be precision warfare.
With that said, I do think the normal and competitive experience should have to separate settings like the old days of Halo 3.
The weapons that have a fast fire rate actually have an increased aim assist. Commando, disrupter, pistol and ESPeCiaLly the AR.
The GAs are warranted, but it would be better if the whole game had a skill ceiling focused rework. Retool the aim assist to be less effective
guns like the shotgun, heatwave, and skewer should be treated like rockets and sniper with their spawn rates. just reduce the shotgun and heatwave ammo capacity so at best you are getting one kill maybe two with it. place battle riffles and pistols in place of their current pick up points. and reduce the starting ammo with the bandit. maybe thatll help with jiggle peaking yes itll slow the game play down but these pros are capable of handling limited ammo. and allow more use of the sandbox.
id like to see the spawn rates of said "power weapons" be determined by game variant. shot gun will spawn only on two modes KOTH/STRONGHOLDS and only spawn twice during said match. id like to see the powerups be changed to this style as well. certain game types will only spawn overshield and others cammo. and maybe have a rotation through out slayer between the two. just brainstorming on this one. and if its even possible to have a turn the tide spawn. IE overshield spawns on aquarius if a team is down by so many kills or flag points. it can replace the overshield with the cammo. or have it be its own spawn point while delaying the overshield spawn so its not stacked. seems kind of cheesy but slayer is so boring IMHO and needs to be spiced up a bit.
and change the starting frag count be set to 1 frag but still allowing you to hold 2 if you pick one up. and add one maybe two pick up points for them. help reduce frag spamming. its honestly annoying. sorry for the long post.
Also there is no comparison when playing this game on xbox vs pc.
Did you just call the bulldog and the heat wave a power weapon
I’d be perfectly fine if we just kept precision weapons and the plasma pistol with certain equipment like back in the MLG days.
So these are my thoughts:
1) THERE IS NO REAL STANDARD TO WHY SOMETHING IS GA’D. Weapons have been GA’d for all sorts of reasons. They have been publicly GA’d for being ‘OP’, and they have been GA’d for being ‘cheesy’. Those are the accusations that are stated in public, because those are calling cards for being a ‘skilled’ player. They are socially acceptable key words. However, there are guns that are neither cheesy nor OP that have been GA’d under the accusation of cheesy and OP, and there are weapons that just got stealth GA’d, and people wonder when and why they got removed from the HCS/ranked pool, because they aren’t cheesy or OP. I do not know for sure, but I believe that through chain or reasoning, that some pros had reasons to GA or get a weapon banned for reasons that wouldn’t have been acceptable to the halo community, and wouldn’t have been a calling card to being a ‘pro’. Lets address the OP notion first…
a) The pros have allowed the use of the: Rocket Launcher and Sniper Rifle, which are basically S tier; Stalker Rifle, Bandit, Sidekick, Bulldog, and Shock Rifle which can be no less than A tier; BR, Commando, and Heatwave in my opinion is B tier, but people will have opinions of some of them being A tier; then you have the Plasma Pistol and AR, which are B tier at best, possibly C tier; Last but not least, the Disruptor, which before the patch was top two worst weapons. So the point of all this is not to make a tier list, which is subjective. My point is to show you all that the Pros use most of the strongest and most reliable weapons in the game. There are some BS weapons that they did ban rightfully, like the Grav Hammer, but most of the B and C weapons are banned or GA’d, and it’s not a stretch to say that, because most of the weapons that have gotten multiple buffs in the last two patches aren’t even in play for HCS/ranked. Truly, they only two weapons that are banned or GA’d that are A or S tier is the Grav Hammer, Energy Sword, Skewer, and Cindershot. Every other weapon not in the HCS/ranked pool is B tier and below. So not only do the pros allow the use of most of the best weapons, but also avoid the use of most of the worst, or mediocre at best, and/or most unreliable weapons. So I call BS every time I here a pro talk about GA’s or bans, and in the same breath talk about balance issues. Not saying that some weapons haven’t at one time been banned for being OP, like the Mangler, but when that weapon was nerfed, they still refused to bring it back in, but most of them have been anything but OP, yet are banned or GA’d. I don’t even know if this counts as a double standard. Might be a triple standard if there was such a thing.
b) Then we go to the other calling card of a weapon being ‘chessy’. First off, in almost every competitive game’s pro scene I know, ‘cheese’ only works in the lower levels, but isn’t viable in the higher levels, because they, mostly being the Pros, can shut down ‘cheese’ with ease. The Grave Hammer, Energy sword, Bulldog, Needler, Disruptor, and AR might be the only weapons in the game being guilty of being cheesy, and the Pros can’t do what pros are expected to do against them, which is to be so skilled and high in IQ game sense, that they don’t give any of these ‘cheesy’ weapons any of their inherent advantages, yet instead they have to whine about them to beat them, aka ban/GA them, which is a weak move for a competitor. Now the Grav Hammer is BS, but every single one of the others I mentioned, there are reasonable ways to outplay it. For some of them, keep your distance and flush tight corners around objectives with nades. For the others, jiggle corners, and those weapons will deplete their mags as the wall will eat half of what they fired at you. These are just basic precautions against these ‘cheesy’ weapons, as Pros should usually have multiple ways of shutting down cheese. 2nd, being a cheesy weapon is irrelevant when it’s a weak weapon at most levels, but just kills in a weird way. Some of these weapons don’t kill in straight forward ways, and they GA them just for that, which is silly. So on top of all of that, they want to choose how they get killed. Being killed or killing for map control or objective control is all that should matter. Whether you die 0-5 seconds after my last shot went into you matters not. They rather be killed instantly with a bullet to the head than given 4 seconds extra to live and dish free dmg before dying. In most pro scenes, they wouldn’t even use guns that kill long after the fact, because those guns are just allow the enemy a chance they shouldn’t even have had. The Needler and Disruptor are at best ‘trading’ guns, not guns to be feared by Pros.
This is not all aimed at every ‘pro’. I thank you Lucid for at least being willing to talk about the issue, and being a reasonable ambassador between the two sides. I’m glad you would at least bring back some of the weapons.
(EDIT)…Due to my first comment being so long, I couldn’t fit all my thoughts in it, nor come back and edit it in any significant way, so I have to continue my comment in 2 more posts. 😅
2) THE ILLUSION OF A RESPECTFUL/COMPETITIVE KILL…this is a transition for point 1.B, but focuses more on the semantics of ‘respectable’ and ‘impressive’ kills, and how is has nothing to do with being competitive, but more so just being flashy or style points when used outside of the innate strength of a weapon.
a) So first off, lets talk ranges. Every gun has an optimal range. When you are using a medium-long range weapon, inherently the weapon has to be precise, because it has to hit targets that are far off. When you kill within a precision weapon’s optimal range, nothing is special about that, because it’s doing what it is supposed to do. Then there is outside of your optimal ranges. Some weapons work differently outside of their optimal ranges. Weapons that have far ranges have the capability of killing at any distance within it’s range, even if it’s not it’s optimal range. For example, the Sniper Rifle’s optimal range is to be at a range where Precision rifles / DMRs cannot reliably de-scope them, being outside of the DMR’s optimal range, while the DMR is within the Sniper’s optimal range. The Sniper has a huge advantage under these circumstances, so if the DMR user were to kill the Sniper when the Sniper has the advantage, it would be deemed ‘impressive’ or ‘respectable’. Now lets go to the other side of the coin…If we are using a CQC weapon, they are designed to have more firepower or stopping power without a high requirement of precision, because in close quarters you don’t have the advantages that space/range give you, which is time. When you do not have time, you cannot easily be precise, so they are designed to save you time by not requiring you to line up shots, hence why SMGs and Shotguns are excellent hip shooters. If a shotgun or SMG were to go against a DMR within their optimal range, they are expected so have a significant advantage. If the DMR use wins the engagement in the Shotgun / SMG’s optimal range, that would be impressive or respectable. For both of these examples, the vice versa is also true. The impressive or respectable kills are usually the kills where you are either slightly to majorly disadvantaged, but it’s a matter of weapon match-ups and positioning, not that some weapons are inherently respectable while some aren’t. Sniper Rifles can at least no scope up close, but a shotgun cannot reasonably kill at a Sniper’s range, so while precision will always be more skillful, the non precision weapons don’t have the possibilities that the precision weapons do when playing outside of their range. So we cannot demonize shotguns and autos for doing what they are supposed to do, and praising DMRs and Snipers for what they are not supposed to do, and then make that outlier the standard for ‘respectable’, which is super subjective. So basically any weapon that can’t kill outside of it’s optimal range is considered to kill in a non-impressive or non-respectable way. Respectability is important in competition, but it is a subjective term, and the HCS’s definition of what is respectable and not is unfair to the inherent nature of certain weapons. A tiger cannot help it was born a tiger anymore than a shark cannot help that it is a shark. Both are killing machines with different advantages and disadvantages, and those things aren’t going to change for their whole existence. A tiger wouldn’t be wise to fight a shark in the ocean, and a shark is definitely not even going to make it near the tiger’s jungle. This doesn’t mean the shark is without dignity and respect, or the tiger lacks in sophistication and style.
b) There are two sides, the pro sandbox and anti-sandbox, but because the majority of pros are anti-sandbox, they and most of their anti-sandbox supports act as though the pro-sandbox supporters are generally casuals, and while the definition of casuals may vary, it is typically a derogatory term, because their are people with competitive spirits that believe that expanding the sandbox will be healthy for competition, not hurt it. The anti-sandbox camp basically calls anyone who doesn’t agree with them a ‘casual’, as if to say they only care about fun and goofing around. ‘Casual’ is more of a mindset, not a skill set. There are skilled players who want a bigger sandbox, believing that it will make it more competitive, which in turn makes it even more fun. Halo tried to get away from being a sandbox shooter for H4 and Reach, and neither the Pros nor ‘casuals’ liked that, if we are counting the majority, because of course some people did like that, and those were still good games in their own right. However, the majority of the community begged for Halo to return to its roots and become a true sandbox shooter once more. Well they did that, but now the Pros are ripping most of the sandbox out of the game for ranked players, and HSC entertainment. What’s going on in HCS right now is hardly Halo in it’s fullness. If I wanted to show a friend a competitive representation of a sandbox shooter, this current one is not it. The Pros say they they understand the difficulty of balancing for the pros and casuals, trying to make it an issue that it’s not, when really the issue is how HCS pros view what is competitive or not, having nothing to do with being a casual or Pro, which I talked about earlier.
3) SHOTGUNS…The idea that a shotgun should become less lethal in close quarters is asinine. At what point does nerfing a gun become too much? The Heatwave is literally the most difficult shotgun to use in all of the Halo games, and they GA’d it. If they make shotguns tickle, and reduce spread, they are basically turning them into SMGs and ARs, but y’all already have an issue with those weapons, because they aren’t precision based, so the shotgun can’t win in anything, and if the Pros were to get their hands on balancing, some weapons would evolve into completely different categories of weapons, and shotguns as we know it would go extinct in Halo. In a good amount of shooters, the shotgun is made to be a trash representation of their real life counterpart, because shotguns in real life are evil guns in close quarters, but Halo has allowed for strong shotguns in all of their games, and considering that there are shields in the game, that makes them ‘fair’, even though ‘fairness’ and guns shouldn’t exist in the same sentence, developers should try to make them fair to some extent. If shotguns are to be considered power weapons on power weapon pads, they should get a buff, because right now they are good, but not that good. Which will lead to my next point, but I went on a tangent with the shotgun to say that the Halo community does like shotguns, which might come to a shock to some Pro players. Did y’all forget how much the community had been clamoring for the double barrel brute sawed-off with a mini grav hammer attachment??? Did y’all forget how much the community hated the Bulldog, because it didn’t have that 1-shot lethal range that Halo’s classic shotgun had? Some of you ‘pros’ have requested for a weaker shotgun, which is why the classic shotgun doesn’t exist in the game, which I’m not completely in disagreement with, only because it shat on the energy sword to an extent the sword didn’t exist in a healthy close quarters power weapon triangle with the Hammer and the classic shotgun (due to bulltrues), but now some of y’all conspire to to move the shotgun into extinction in Halo all together. Y’all are out of touch with the sandbox and the community’s wishes when it comes to entertainment, although I wouldn’t want to stain competition with the needs for ratings and entertainment, I believe there is a healthy balance in which both exists at high levels, which I will touch on later.
4) WEAPON PADS / RACKS…I can tell that based on some of the pros who have videos up on the GAs and why they support them have also eluded to deeper rooted issues that have nothing to do with the weapons themselves. This makes me think that the GA’s are really just temporary bandaids for issues that will take more thoughtfulness in fixing. Some have mentioned that the bad timings and pad tiers need refining or rebalancing, and I can agree with this. The power pad and red rack weapons have too much uptime. I won’t go into too much about what I think they should do, because I haven’t given it as much thought as the other points, but I think I know where they should start looking. I think they should consider increasing the downtime of all weapon pad/rack tiers. I also think that the idea reflected in a 3 tier weapon pad/rack system doesn’t reflect the weapon tiers in the sandbox. There aren’t 3 tiers of weapons: power, semi power, and common. Some of the most common weapons are the strongest ones, and some of the red rack weapons are equal to some blue rack weapons in killing efficiency. I think there is this idea that weapons that hit harder per shot are power weapons, when dmg per shot isn’t what matters as much as TTK. I think that in truth, there should be an extra tier of pad/rack. The pads are more in the open and more fairly contested than wall racks, so instead of adding a 3rd rack, like an pink rack, or whatever color floats your boat, they should add two tiers of weapon pads, which one of the pros mentioned putting some of the red rack weapons on pads in the middle of the street. I think if the Pros were willing to incorporate a minimum of 80% of the sandbox ( I know the Hammer is BS), they should get executive power over the weapon tiers, weapon pad/rack timers as a trade off, as long as no power pad timer is over 7 minutes, but the weapon would have to get buffed or nerfed (within reasonable means as to not ruin the identity of the gun) to reflect the power pad level.
5) OBJECTIVES AND SANDBOXES…I do realize that the game objectives trump the importance of sandbox battles over weapons, and that is why some pros would find getting plunked by a shotgun to be annoying, because they cannot realistically play the game objective and fight for weapon ctrl / denial at the same time all the time. Some times map control for the objective will allow map control for the sandbox, but more than not, this is not possible, which is probably the primary reason the Pros had the sandbox reduced. As I mentioned in my last statement, I think Pros should have more say in weapon respawn timings. I do think that there should be intervals of time in between objectives that allow sandbox control to become the focus. In some game types, like King of the Hill, or extraction, where there is a point scored between a new objective rotation, there should be a 2 minute interval that allows Pros to fight for map control and sandbox control. This would justify an increase in weapon pad timers, increasing certain weapons downtime, and increasing average game length in order to make fighting over the sandbox important, and making that catapult success for the game objective rather than lowering success for game objectives. I also think they should consider that power weapons spawn 3-4x later than they currently do for their first spawn, so that fighting over them doesn’t get in the way of the game objective, and that capturing or scoring an objective will either reduce cooldowns on weapon pads or increase / reset downtimes in such a way that the game objective and sandbox objectives don’t interfere too much with one another. There should obviously be overlapping times, where getting a hard fought over objective, the power weapon can be the deciding factor, or maybe it’s what gets you off to a good start on the next objective 2 minutes later, if it’s a stronghold type of mode, and where conserving power weapon ammo becomes a strategy in order to save it for game objective dominance on the next point. I may have seemed to be speaking negatively against pros for most of my points, but something I do think the Pros are very in touch with, more than the rest of the community, is understanding and feeling objective and weapon timings, and map control, since they coordinate on a higher level. On these things I think they should have a lot more say on and that the Devs should listen to them a lot on.
6) ENTERTAINMENT VS COMPETITION… I want to use an example that most of us probably will understand. The NBA all-star game used to be an exiting game to watch, but when statisticians, who sometimes lack much context of the game, got involved to create bumps in rating and revenue, they actually ended up ruining entertainment value, because they didn’t understand what the fans really wanted. They say that statistically fans always got the most hyped for 3 pointers and dunks. Another dynamic around the all-star game was that championship pressure was greater than ever, and players had to stress more about their legacy and rings, so they valued sitting out the all-star game or playing with minimal effort, so as to not get injured. Although the latter has nothing to do my Halo HCS point, the decision that the league made in order to create increased rating did. The league decided they could make everyone happy by telling the players to play minimal defense, allowing players to hit uncontested 3s and dunks without resistance. This led to a steep decline in ratings. What the statisticians ended up finding out is that fans enjoyed watching players use their skill full handles to get past good defenders for dunks, or use their athleticism to dunk over/on defenders. They enjoyed watching contested 3s go in a lot more than wide open 3s. They found out that the game was fine as it was, and that they didn’t need to manipulate the game to make it more exciting. So the reason I mentioned all of this is to say that if I talk about making the game more entertaining, I am not saying to do so at the cost of competition. I believe that the higher the degree of competition, the higher the quality of entertainment, and the more ratings and revenue the HCS will bring in. So, when I talk about the need of having weapons excel at their innate abilities, like a shotgun in close quarters, that is because it is a defensive weapon made to defend objectives, and that the players trying to take the objective will garner more excitement by outplaying the shotgun, whether it be by positioning and coordination to flush him out, or by raw mechanical skill with strafing and headshots, it will be more impressive. I believe that most of the sandbox offers good dynamics for attacking or defending objectives that increase the mechanical and strategical requirements, and in turn increase entertainment value. I really gave the shotgun as a defensive example, but imagine the Ravager’s charged shot flushing out a guy with a shotgun holding a tight angle…isn’t that a glorious example of how the more of the sandbox you incorporate, the more dynamics can be at play. Now like I said, I may have a different idea of competition then most pros apparently, but I do have a competitive spirit, and do think that there is a way everyone can win, except for Pros and non pros that want to remove certain weapons just because they have a hatred for those types of guns, regardless of the weapon’s potential contribution to competition.
Love the content bro
Skewer is too easy though. Just a free one shot kill no matter where you hit. At least with the sniper it's only a one shot kill on a full shields player if it's a headshot. It's just to easy to use like an even more powerful shotgun close range for a free one shot kill.
We'd see SOO many doubles or triples and pushes stopped because you can just shut down a full shields player for free.
Sentinel beam seems fine to me. Mangler could definitely replace shotgun since it actually requires some precision.
They can easily make a skin for each weapon, very much so like the Campaign weapons, & just have them be used in Competitive.
Remember when the Mangler was nerf'd by reducing Melee damage across the board? You just can't trust the developers lol.
Rather than having power weapons just not be powerful why not just change the spawn rates for tournaments. Maybe double it. I watch you get disruptor kills and that shit looks pro as hell. You don’t see pro players even picking it up. Why ban things that aren’t even getting kills - because you don’t respect a kill. The needler is worst kind of cheese kill but it’s so rare to die to it that it’s irrelevant. Like yeah it’s not a skillful kill but have you ever seen a needler killing spree. Me either.
There are 2 ways to balance things - everything can be balanced or you can balance imbalance. You can have a rocket launcher - and then you counter it with a snipers. Or you have a shotgun that can kill in close corridors , but counter it with spike grenades and shock grenades - oh wait those were nerfed to the ground.
Cheese weapons can exist and a game can still be balanced.
Not all weapons need to be “respectable”. The sniper and shock rifle are OP if you can aim, but a mouse and keyboard player makes them even stronger. Maybe pro play just needs a less auto aim mode.
It’s too easy to kill / be killed if you’re a pro I get, but it seems like you only dislike weapons with high levels of auto aim and stickyness. Commando is fine because its auto aim is less. Disruptor bad because auto aim. Maybe that’s the solution - a pro mode with reduced aim assist.
ttk and eok is crazy with the ranked renditions of the ranked sandbox weapons they are close but so very far from perfection.
Bring the Skewer back!
All they had to do was make them spawn less often 😢
To add to this ; I think 343 is afraid that gameplay would be too slow without power weapons through a spectators standpoint. Halo infinite is pretty fast with no power weapons regardless
What is GA ? and sandbox?????
even after the GA's the jiggle peeking bandit meta is the ugliest version of Halo we've ever watched