(Yes I realise I misplaced Spritzee in the final image at the end - obviously that's a mistake I made while assembling it and there's a link in the description to the full image which has been fixed. Overall I'd say 1 mistake out of 1083 is a fairly decent margin for error when making a big list like this.)
This was a great watch, and I agree with pretty much all of your changes!!! It's kind of sad we'll never see things get properly rearranged for branding purposes - I'm still coming to terms with pre-existing Pokemon getting an extra 0 in their dex numbers LOL
I agree, though at the time it made sense. Kanto and Johto are regions of Japan, as are Hoenn (Kyushu) and Sinnoh (Hokkaido). Only Unova onwards are based on different countries. In fact, you could call Charmander-Arceus the national dex, and victini onwards the international dex, including all regional forms. Though I don’t think the modern lore supports this division.
@@joshuasims5421 I mean fair don't get me wrong but it does kinda feel in the pokemon world that they are their own Nations but I guess we won't truly know the geopolitics of the pokemon world any time soon
Fun fact, Tauros and Miltank are actually associated with each other in official media! In the Alola pokedex, the two of them occupy the same page, like any evolutionary family (minus the Cosmog line which is split up)
In the original Johto Regional 'Dex, Tauros is #148 and Miltank is #149. In Kanto, until the Let's Go games, Tauros is exclusive to the Safari Zone (in Japanese Blue it's a Trade Exclusive), making it canonically not native to Kanto. It can be found in the wild in Johto, Kalos, Alola, and Galar and can be found via Poke Radar or Underground in Sinnoh. Everywhere Miltank can be found, Tauros can be found too. When Tauros is found in Horde battles, Miltank may join it. When Tauros or Miltank calls SOS, its ally can be either Tauros of Miltank. They are treated everywhere in the games they both exist as if they are part of the family, so I think it makes a lot of sense to move Tauros into the Johto Pokedex right before Miltank.
The idea I had keeps the order, so not all legends in the back for example, but organizes by family. Each family gets its own number, then each Pokemon gets a sub number. 1-1 Bulbasaur 1-2 Ivysaur 1-3 Venusaur 2-1 Charmander And so on… This way it’s easier to add evolutions as time goes on without banishing them to the end of the national dex.
Honestly yeah that's a really good alternative. I guess only problem with it would be when they add pre-evolutions though, but it's still a much more scalable system than what we have currently.
I've had a similar idea but I've always come up with the issue of Game Freak's tendency to add on additions to certain groups of Pokemon. Like how the Regis have had 3 new additions to their group, the Ultra Beasts getting new additions, etc. . You could technically count each group (legendary groups, rival/duo Pokemon, Ultra Beasts, Paradoxes, etc) in its own number but that goes away from the species specific system. Which is to say the number system itself is inherently flawed for an eternally incomplete system like a biological database of creatures. Where just one new entry into it would facilitate moving everything else around to accommodate it.
My only serious issue with this idea is that eventually as more Pokemon are added as evolutions later on, Gimmeghoul and Gholdengo will lose that 1000th Pokemon slot, OR they’ll be pushed out of Paldea. The idea isn’t futureproofed, but for the time being, your changes are very effective.
How would Gimmighoul and Gholdengo get booted out of Paldea? The only way that would happen is if a baby Pokémon showed up elsewhere, and given gimmighoul’s moveset I doubt that would happen…
I think they mean that if more new forms/evolutions/pre-evolutions/regional variants are introduced for earlier Pokémon, numbers 999 and 1000 might end up being somewhere within the Galar dex (and then even earlier if we’re looking further ahead). So if you absolutely wanted to keep them at those numbers, they wouldn’t be in the right region anymore
while i agree, gimmeghould and gholdengho are only in slot 999 and 1000th as a novelty which was maintained, but a proper "international dex" that includes future pokemon and new preevolutions/ regional variants etc, will indeed make them lose the 999 and 1000 slot. But that isnt really a problem since again its a novelty.
Alright, what I'm about to suggest would REALLY step on the toes of a lot of gamefreak design decisions, but would really add to your current ordering and would help future-proof the pokedex for any future additions. Basically, why are evolution lines considered separate species of pokemon? Every Bulbasaur will turn into an Ivysaur and a Venusaur, so I suggest we simply combine their dex entries in a way. Bulbasaur is 001.1, the first of it's line. Ivysaur is 001.2, Venusaur is 001.3. Charmander is 002.1, and so on. This way, if a random pokemon like Arbok for example gets a new evolution, it would become 009.3 instead of shuffling every single other pokemon over. Also, if a Pokemon has a regional form, it can be distinguished by well, an A, G, H, P, or so on. Alolan Raichu would be 10.2A, compared to regular/Kanto Raichu being 10.2. As for Baby pokemon, they'd be distinguished by a Zero, Pichu would be 10.0. You could also add Megas and Gigantamax forms in the same way as regional forms, with an M or GM, though other more complex forms like Alcremie, could fall apart with this sort of classification. Now, majorly in particular, Gholdengho would no longer be #1000, and could be moved back in the dex to somewhere it could Make a little more sense progression wise, but other than that, I believe this would satisfy the pokedex indefinitely.
Categorizing it like that would be a great idea, should just rename it decimal dex or something, a simplified view, rather than a nostalgic cluttered one.
I imagine it's because certain parts of their biology are fundamentally different like how in real life, we uniquely identify tadpoles and frogs or caterpillars and butterflies even though they too are in the same families. That and, unlike tadpoles or caterpillars, Pokemon can live their whole lives from birth to death presumably without ever evolving (old Treecko in the anime as an example) meaning that evolution wouldn't be influenced by aging and so can't be treated as integral to their official life cycle
What skarmtsk said. Also new babies would then shunt the rest of the family down, smaller but still an issue. Oh and split Evos would feel weird. Oddish x.1, Gloom x.2, Vileplume x.3, Bellossom x.4? like I know that's what it already is with whole numbers, but making it a decimal seems to specifically draw attention to "look this family goes 1>2>3 except for when it's not" yknow?
@@TheNeraum I believe I covered those situations in my original comment. Babies show up as a "0" in the line, whether they're babies of new Pokemon (Like Riolu or Toxel were) Or of existing pokemon (Like Pichu and Cleffa). So if we happen to get a baby Skarmory for example, it would take Skarmory's number, and add a .0 to it's end, while an evolution of Skarmory would be a .2. And split evolutions are a fair point, but they are still inherently related. Thus Vileplume and Bellossom would be X.3 and X.4, or they could be X.3.1 and X.3.2, being distinguished by number rather than by Letter, as Regional forms are. Wooper would be W.1, Paldean wooper would be W.1P, Quagsire would be W.2.1, and Clodsire would be W.2.2. (W being the actual number for Wooper). I guess there's many more kinks to work out, however the point of this style of Pokedex Number reworking is to continue to group related Pokemon together, and be flexible to accommodate new additions to old favorites. And as for the idea of how we distinguish Frogs from Tadpoles, yes we do have different names for them, but that doesn't mean they are separate species. If a frog lays eggs, the tadpoles that hatch are always the same species as their mother, and turn into the same frog she is.
I'd really like to see a full single image of the whole adjusted Pokédex, rather than a scrolled list of boxes, it could be good to see the comparison between the current and adjusted nat dex
Arceus’ name was indeed originally pronounced ARR-see-yuss, but at some point British-English speakers (or their moms with too much time on their hands) complained because the name had a syllable that sounded like “arse.” So they gave it the new pronunciation.
If anything this video makes me more happy with the idea Nidoran has two separate Pokédex numbers, as you said Burmy is the other Pokémon with evolutions for both genders, but Burmy itself does not have gendered forms. The Nidorans being able to produce offspring of the other species isn’t unique to them either, Volbeat and Illumise do the same thing. The two also have different stats and movesets, not unheard of in Pokémon that vary by gender but I think the Nidorans meet so many criteria met by few to no other Pokémon that it makes sense they are classified as different species, really them sharing a name is the only thing that makes it feel odd
I know you said you didn't want to talk about it, but I agree with you. Are-se-us matches the Japanese pronunciation, and since legendaries are meant to broadly retain their names/pronunciations across all languages, it's the only correct pronunciation in my mind.
I’ve been wanting to do something like this for a while now, particularly with Kanto’s dex because I find it criminal that they’ve refused to give us an expanded regional dex in two sets of remakes purely for the sake of the 151 brand recognition. It’s nice to see it all laid out like this. Only change I’d personally make is to put the Kitakami Pokémon after the Paldean ones. Same gen, same game, technically different region, but I do understand why you did it the way you did.
The Hoenn dex is ordered by the order in which you encounter the pokemon in the game. But this national dex doesn't really take that into account. That's why the fossils were moved to the end, even though you can get them before you get surf.
@@AgusSkywalker Yes, but in this video, "Roadblock" Pokemon such as Snorlax, Sudowoodo, and Kecleon are moved to the end. "Roadblock" Pokemon are defined as a Pokemon that blocks a path on the map, must be battled to continue, and isn't found in the wild in its original region. Kecleon is found in the wild at a 1% encounter rate in nearly every grassy route East of Mauville City in Hoenn, which makes it fail the final criteria. It should not be moved to the end of the 'dex. Incidentally, both Snorlax and Sudowoodo have baby forms which can be caught in the wild in Sinnoh, making a somewhat strong case that they are native to Sinnoh and should remain there.
For the Nidoran kerfuffle, the easiest and most backwards compatible solution would be to give a slight rename and just settle with them being separate species with a single possible gender (a nidorano/nidorana split, for example). In-game, you can get male nidorans on the daycare using Ditto.
Oh finally, we're FINALLY talking about the Nidoran Pokédex problem, THANK YOU! I swear, the only reason they haven't consolidated them is due to the way they marketed the number 150/151.
Gen 4: Here is a pre-evolution for Mantine that can only evolve if you have a Remoraid in your party! Also, Gen 4: This is the first generation where Mantine doesn't have a Remoraid present in it's sprite!
Love how you organised this National dex by region But I do like the idea of grouping certain Pokemon by category in a separate dex Categories: Starters, early route Pokemon (divided further by mammal, bird, and bug), pika variants, fossils, aquatic, pseudo legendary, sub legendary, legendary, mythical, Ultra Beast, Paradox Of course this still leaves a huge chunk of the dex unclassified, maybe organise the remaining Pokemon based on habitat (forest, mountain, desert, cityscape)
FRLG introduced habitats in their Pokedex: Grassland, Forest, Water's-edge, Sea, Cave, Mountain, Rough-terrain, Urban, Rare. It would be neat to see each region re-ordered to have starters, early-route mammal/bird/bug, [each habitat], [region-specific gimmic?] pseudo-legends, legendaries, mythicals.
I formally beg you to please move Delibird one slot later so as to keep Mantine and Skarmory together, given that they are version-exclusive counterparts. Their stat spreads are literally the exact same but switching physical atk and def with special atk and def
Thats the issue with this honestly. Like... counterparts are subject to change. Skarmory and Mantine are counterparts in gen 2 and gen 3, but they lost that status in gen 4, when Mantyke became a thing. For example - Pinsir and Scyther being counterparts in gen 1, but losing the status in gen 2, with both getting another counterpart partner Pinsir gained Heracross and Scyther became counterparts with Onix, which means Onix needs to be placed next to Scyther in Kanto's national dex. The reason Scyther and Onix became counterparts is that both evolve by trading, while holding Metal Coat and got a Mega in gen 6. However, the counterpart argument is subjective anyways, while i have seen people considering Arbok and Weezing to be counterparts, because Jessie and James had them in the anime. Despite that however, Arbok is counterparts (Or was until gen 7) with Sandshrew line. Like, another example is that until gen 4, Jynx was considered a counterpart to Electabuzz and Magmar. However, while Electabuzz and Magmar remained counterparts, they lost Jynx as a counterpart partner. However, Rhyhorn line joined them. All have the same evolutionary method. Electabuzz evolves into Electivire holding Electrizer while traded Magmar evolves into Magmator holding Magmarizer while traded Rhydon evolves into Rhyperior holding Protector while traded Which means you have to put Rhyhorn/Rhydon next to Magmar/Electabuzz in the Kanto Dex.
@@nickdentoom1173 Scyther and Onix aren't counterparts-"counterpart" needs to mean something other than simply "version exclusives" or "Pokemon that have similar evolution methods", or you run into all the bugaboos that you listed in your comment. Trying to come up with too many subcategories to put Pokemon in is just going to inevitably lead to more confusion, so the best thing to do is just keep it at the official categories we already have.
I'd say instead to move Delibird before Corsola. That way, it can be with its fellow Ice Path inhabitant Swinub, instead of the total randos Skarmory and Houndour
@@becausesakamoto5938 I am just pointing out the issue with the ordering here, even if some Pokemon might or might not be counterparts, it was just an example. Like, Heracross and Pinsir being counterparts, so they need to be next to eachother is problematic. It either makes Pinsir a gen 2 mon, or Heracross a gen 1. Its the same with Electabuzz/Magmar and Hitmonchan/Hitmonlee and the other introduced baby mons Elekid is the first in the line, so we need to remove Electabuzz from gen 1 and Electivire from gen 4 and put them behind Pichu in the dex. The problem is that every new Pokedex, starts with a Starter Pokemon (Or Victini, but that ordering is terrible anyways and slotting Victini at the end of Unova doesn't change anything dex count wise). So in that vain, you cannot introduce new Pokemon in those generations anymore, because the National Dex also goes from Starter to Starter generation wise.
I like this new order a lot. Zigzagoon is one of my only problems, because it's especified that the Galarian form is the original one and the Hoennian is the variant. So Zigzagoon and Linoone should go to Galar, at least in my opinion. Pretty nice tho!
Might have to go an organize my Home dex like this now... This is peak, always wondered about this sort of idea. I wonder though, if maybe Mew should steal Victini's gimmick and become Pokemon #0 of this version of the natdex.
I don't like breaking the legendaries sorting that much, but it makes so much sense. Mew is rumored to be the ancestor of all living Pokemon, so if anyone deserves a 0 placement, it's Mew. That might also lead us to consider Unown as the 0 version of its Pokedex or Arceus as the 0the position of its.
One slight change I would make, delibird should not be put in between mantine and skarmory. Mantine and skarmory were originally clear counterparts with mirrored stats (skarmory has 140 defense, mantine 140 spdef, and so on). It’s gotten a bit muddied over the years as mantine gained a few stat points breaking the mirror as well as a pre evolution, and it was in a weird place to begin with since it was also associated with remoraid. So I wouldn’t really call them true counterparts anymore, but still, if we’re reorganizing the dex anyway why not keep them together and put delibird after. Great video overall, this organization makes so much more sense than the official one and I appreciate how consistent it is.
The Pokemon Company retroactively changed the type for magnetite to include Steel, and added the Fairy type to multiple old critters. Consolidating the Nidorans would've been a problem for the reasons you listed but in the end still worth it, and not fully unprecedented since they've retroactively made changes before. Honestly the longer TPC waits to consolidate the Nidorans the worse it gets, they should've done it years ago
They'll never do it because they'd be foolish to officially undercut the original 151, espeically now when their PR is bad enough. I can already see the articles of "Pokemon says the original 151 is actually only 150" people would be fuckin pissed.
@@TheWrathAbove i think about it often, because their branding was originally 150 anyway! little surprise baby mew was not expected by the developers, marketers, etc. 151 is obviously here to stay forever now, though. i just think its interesting XD
I think my problem with the Pokedex is if it doesn't have a critter native to the region, it recycles stuff from up to 20 years ago. This is annoying for some Pokémon who are only found in one region like Glameow and Furfrou.
I loved watching this! A couple years ago I started a project I called “The Natural PokéDex” that essentially reorders the National Dex in a similar way, but I really like the other changes you made! Thanks for uploading this and inspiring me to take a second look at mine!
Phenomenal video, thank you for this undertaking. I legitimately think my only criticism would be Rotom's placement, but that's not really your fault since Sinnoh had so few gift Pokémon. It just feels out of place, but I suppose that ties into your bit at the end about how the Pokedex has changed as of the past few generations.
I think there's room for both orders to co-exist. Maintain the traditional order for branding purposes, but also offer this order ingame as a more practical alternative.
Outside of naming conventions being "pokemon says its name usually", there's a case to axe two more Kanto mons, uniting the Nido family from 6, to 5 like you did, to 3-4 -- While Burmy is the only mon with distinct different evolutions by gender, it's not the only mon who has a gender difference, as there's a mon with a /moveset/ difference between genders on the evolution; Espurr's evolution, Meowstic, has both different hidden abilities, and different level up movesets, between the male and female versions, as well as distinct visual differences between them (something they've also only done a few other times, like with Frillish/Jellicent) -- between Burmy's setup in gen4, and Espurr>Meowstic in gen 6, I'm of the opinion that if the Nidos had been made in a more modern generation (4-on), we very well would have seen them as a 4 (Nidoran > Nidorin?, eschewing -o and -a as gendered name affixes > NidoKing/Queen) or even possibly a 3 with some gender-oblivious title suffix for the final stage, but keeping the gender biased levelups we've seen.
Ive been wanting Game Freak to do something like this for so long, especially the Nidoran dilemma, so I’m glad to see someone else agree!! Great video!!
While I generally and broadly agree with the contents of this video there are a few notes I would make. #1 you should probably section legendaries/mythicals into a second pokédex, rather than attach them to the end of each region. While it is fun they don't often play by the rules because their origins can intertwine with others. #2 Miltank are frequently a pair with Tauros, the exception seemingly being gen 1 & games like it (let's go) until gen 9 where only Tauros gets a regional form without miltank. #3 there are a strange number of pokémon which are clearly pairs or mirrors of each other that are not listed next to each other, and I would move them to be adjacent. Such as the Clefairy line and the Jigglypuff line having Vulpix between them, who itself is obviously a pair with Growlithe and Arcanine.
I wouldn't say the Jigglypuff and Clefairy lines are properly pairs/mirrors of each other- they have very similar designs and the same trajectory of their evolution lines (a baby introduced in gen 2 and final stages which can be evolved to with a Moon stone), but that really seems more like a case of gen 1 being kind of uninspired with designs, and within the universe the lines have no real connection. As for your point about the Vulpix and Growlithe lines, they're sometimes (but not always) version exclusives, as are a number of other Pokemon. The idea of them being connected loses a lot of credibility when seeing that the Vulpix line got regional forms in Alola which are version exclusives with the Alolan Sandshrew line, and the Growlithe line didn't get regional forms until Legends: Arceus. For these not obviously related lines that happen to occasionally be version exclusives opposite to each other, it makes much more sense to keep the order as it is to reflect where the Pokemon are located in the games.
I think looking at each of the regional dexes might make it less subjective which Pokemon should be considered "counterparts" and grouped together and which shouldn't. Any lines that are ALWAYS grouped together when they appear in regional Pokedexes should be grouped together in the national. (in GSC, Clefairy is adjacent to Jigglypuff and Vulpix is adjacent to Growlithe. I'm not sure about their other appearances) I'm very curious as an exercise what it would look like if we tried to rebuild the national pokedex with only the regional 'dexes to guide us.
My dream is that they someday make a MASSIVE Pokemon game with _every single region,_ and the plot behind the game is that a scientist is fed up with misinformation and unscientific wording in the official Pokedex, so he send you (the trainer) on a quest to catch ALL the different Pokemon to make a fully complete National Dex (combining all the dex entries together and getting rid of the wacky nonsensical ones to make one definitive description of a Pokemon and their abilities). I know its absurdly ambitious, and would NEVER realistically happen... But COME ON! You can't deny it would be _awesome!_ They could even go the Legends: Arceus route and trim out the Elite Four and Trainer Battles to focus more on _catching_ Pokemon instead (which might make the idea more realistic to pull off, since they wouldn't need to make an entire overarching plot or anything like that... Just the true "Gotta Catch Em All" experience!)
Having every single region in one game sounds good, but it’s actually a horrendous idea. By the time you’ve done everything in one region, you’re so high level that the next region will have to be super hard, and then you’ve basically gotten to Level 100 by the third. And you still have seven more to go!? It’s not feasibly possible to properly balance without gutting most regions of content. Overall, an idea that people really need to stop dreaming about cause it just won’t work.
@@PrincessDella Agreed. And i have seen people throw out the suggestion that after every region, you cannot take your older Pokemon with you and that you get reset by being able to choose another level 5 starter Pokemon and start completely over in another region. But then whats the point in having multiple regions. Like, we have seen with Johto and Kanto, having more than 2 regions in one game isn't viable at all.
@@PrincessDella it could work, what you are saying is that experience would need to be massively overhauled. If i could make a fan game, then ever pokemon could instantly become level 50, in terms of stats, and the experience bar, would then become: learn a new move. Every time the xp bar goes up, your pokemon will want to learn a new move, and every 25ish experience bars, you get prompted that your pokemon wants to evolve (if possible). That way people that want to keep a preevolutions about, they can, whilst not being completely destroyed by higher evolution pokemon, players can "roleplay" Ash torracat defeating incineroar for example. If they so chose, and are clever with how they know/play pokemon. It is possible it just requires rework and balance
A pretty neat idea, although I feel it's for these exact purposes that regional Pokedexes exist, which do put evolutionary lines and other related Pokemon that were introduced in seperate regions along each other, filling the in-universe need for what you describe. The national dex remaining as is was as you said probably a decision made for out-of-universe reasons, although not just branding, but also just in general after the precedent set with Gen 2, it'd just be very confusing for players if the Pokedex-number of Pokemon changed every few games, like if Bellsprouts Number changed from 69 to, say, 75 by Gen 3, then to 79 just a few Gens later, and in more recent years NatDex numbers would have to change mid-Gen, again, it would just become confusing, for a problem that regional Pokedexes already fix, to a point where... why even have the numbers in the first place? Pretty sure irl we don't order species by a number, you could just as well argue that Pokedex-numbers shouldn't be a thing if we're going for realism. Speaking of irl though, in a certain sense I feel Pokedex-numbers are comparable to scientific species names, there's a lot of species that were given scientific names that denote them as part of the same family... only for later scientists to find out that one of them wasn't actually as related to the others as they thought and was actually more closely related to another species, yet I'm pretty sure the scientific name of a species was never or only very rarely changed to reflect that discovery (again because it would've been confusing most likely), which is very similar to how Pokedex-numbers seem to work. Another similar concept to the Pokedex I feel is the periodic table of elements, primarily because obviously the elements are also numbered, although for a more solid reason than Pokemon, but there are also many ways they can be arranged on the periodic table, while there is of course the one most well known taught in schools, there are other approaches that focus on other aspects of the elements, similarly to how the National Dex and regional Dexes order Pokemon in different ways. Also some notes, pretty sure Victini is listed in front of the Unova Starters in the Pokedex and thus also in the National Dex because it was an event-distribution that could be received very early in the game, but obviously Unova had a completely new Pokedex with completely new Pokemon, so if Victini was at the end of the Pokedex, catching it would reveal how many Pokemon the Unova Pokedex would have, so mostly for out-of-universe reasons again. Same reason why Tornadus and Thundurus are before Reshiram and Zekrom, but Landorus between them and Kyurem, Tornadus and Thundurus can be found before the end of the game, Landorus only after, so in order not to spoil that there's a 3rd one until the postgame, it's put after, I assume.
It would be confusing if they changed the order with every generation, though it's confusing now, just in a different way. Maybe they should re-order the National Pokedex for Gen 10? It's a nice clean number, Gen 10 can answer all sorts of questions the Pokedex still asks (such as if Corphish is an invasive species, what region is it native to?) and it would come with a tacit promise that it would be 10 more generations before they reorder the Pokedex again? They could even excuse it in game by calling our current National 'Dex "Oak's Taxonomy" and giving a new name to this one. I'm also very curious, if we were reconstructing the National Pokedex, given only the Regional Pokedexes as a starting point and no knowledge of the franchise, what would we end up with?
In my perspective, what we call the National dex should be called the international dex and the term national dex should be Pokédex for a Pokédex that groups the Pokédex of regions that are based off of different areas of the same country or “nation”. Two examples of a national Pokédex with this new use of the term would be the generation four national Pokédex and grouping the Unova, Alola, and maybe Blueberry Pokédex together. This is due to the regions of generations 1-4 being based off of regions of Japan while Unova and Alola are based off of New York City and Hawaii which are part of the United States. (Is the plural of the term Pokédex the same word or “Pokédexes”?)
Yeah, it made sense with the first 4 generations all being based off of different regions of Japan, but from Gen 5 onward it stopped making sense to call it the "national" dex.
Thank you for mentioning the PBR announcer, who was also the narrator of the anime. I pronounce Arceus the same way because he did. I also pronounce Lopunny, LOPunny. Not LOWpunny like a lot of YTubers do. Why because he produced it the same way in PBR and the anime.
fun video, and i like the ideas behind it!! my one change would be that regidrago should go in front of regieleki, screw what the official dex order says - the regis are supposedly representative of different eras in man's history (stone age, ice age, iron age, middle age, digital age) and the fact that the order is flipped in the official dex Pains Me So
I agree with a lot of these changes, but personally connections like miltank and tauros, while technically not confirmed, are obvious to the point they're referenced multiple times. Also, I'd personally group all of the fossil Pokémon together since its reasonable to assume that in universe, prehistoric Pokémon would be classified together, whereas paradox Pokémon remain in Scarlet and Violet as an upcoming hypothesis and not yet confirmed due the circumstances under which they were discovered.
I was so happy to see this reccomended to me I had this idea recently and think it's so so interesting and it sucks that the pokemon company probably won't do anything about it. My original idea was that instead of grouping them together by reigon discovered in, it would be interesting to have them sorted by enviornment and similarities with other pokemon, such as having a large amount of the starting bird pokemon be near each other and so on. Needs ironing out ofc but yeah, still might end up making mine, either way this video was really great!! I'm glad that there are people who feel similarly about this topic :] also saw someone point out the insistince on having kanto refusing to have more than the 151 and it reminded me of how badly i want to see past reigons with newer pokemon in their reigonal dex game freak please it's such a small nitpick but i'd do ANYTHING these things mean a lot to me
I also like to recategorize, but I always change things in slightly different ways. First, rather than by first regional appearance, I prefer to put families where their lowest evolution is. For example, the Blissey line is in Sinnoh while Electivire line is in Johto. Second, if the Nidorans get condensed, my opinion is that Volbeat and Illumise should too. Third, Enamorus should go before Landorus, not after. And I always rearrange Kanto and Johto much more heavily to better align with the later-gen tradition of putting things in order of their appearance. Loved the video. Keep it up.
I LOVE this video so much, I've really come to appreciate the zoological aspects of the Pokémon series in recent years and this video feels like a Pokémonology student's thesis defense
I started ROM Hacking Fire Red a while ago and the first feature I implemented was a re-ordered Kanto/National 'Dex I did move evolutions and pre-evolutions in future generations back to their originals, I rearranged pokemon into pseudo, legendary, mythical order, and I even placed Mew before Mewtwo. I didn't think to move fossils and road-blocks to the end, but that's a great idea. Another question I see fans ask that I haven't acted on is what to do with Safari-Zone Exclusive Pokemon. For example, the Pokemon Tauros is found in Kanto's safari zone, but with the exception of the Let's Go games, cannot be found anywhere else in Kanto. It appears to be native to Johto. I think this strengthens the argument that Tauros should be paired with Miltank, especially since the Johto regional dex lists Tauros as #148 and Miltank as #149. Corphish is also explicitly mentioned to not be native to Hoenn, though there's no clear idea where it could be from. The question of nativeness also runs in the other direction. In Gen 2, Houndoor, Murkrow, and Slugma are exclusive to Kanto, so should they be moved to the Kanto dex? The fact that they were nowhere to be found may suggest they were transplanted from other regions (such as Sinnoh). There's also the issue of trade exclusives. Lickitung, Farfetch'd, Mr. Mime, and Jynx are all unavailable in Kanto and found in Johto instead. Should these be moved? There's also an argument to be made that the roadblock Pokemon Snorlax and Sudowoodo are both native to Sinnoh. (And Kecleon doesn't count as a roadblock because it can be caught in the wild in RS on several routes). The more we follow this logic, though, we arrive at some conclusions that don't feel intuitive. For example, Eevee was first found in the wild in Unova. Would we really want to move Eeveelutions there? I think there's a good argument that the Eevee in Unova were transplants (their location fits more with the idea that the population was progenated with pets that ran away). Instead, Eevee would be native to Kalos. We also would need to accept Togepi as a Sinnoh Pokemon and Metagross as a Unova Pokemon, and maybe even Tyrogue as from Galar. One could also argue about version exclusives. In Gen III Kanto (only) Slowpoke is a version exclusive to LeafGreen. Slowpoke has a designated dungeon in Johto, so would we consider it Johto native? Should we give priority to any region that has a signature dungeon for a Pokemon? Within each region, there are other ways Pokemon might be grouped. FRLG introduced habitats: Grassland, Forest, Water's-edge, Sea, Cave, Mountain, Rough-terrain, Urban, Rare. It would be interesting to see each region's Pokedex ordered by these habitats. Other options could include Egg Group, Shape, or Types. I'm not sure which of these changes I would want to implement in FRLG. I re-ordered MANY files so that all lists of Pokemon were ordered by my revised Pokedex, so any change I make would have to be updated in many places. All that said, I like many of these ideas. It's very tempting to move the Safari Zone Exclusive, Trade Exclusive, and Gift Exclusive into other regions, especially since so many are native to Johto. That said, the Let's Go games makes that more complicated, because they made all of those Pokemon native to Kanto and I may want to mirror some of those changes, which would make them no longer non-Kanto. (Also is that Drawn to Life music? I've never heard someone use that as a music background.)
Another possible approach: assign one number to an entire family, with a letter for each evolution and form, probably in order introduced. This would radically change the numbering, but also future proof the pokedex. Entirely new species would get a new number, but no matter how many regional forms Meowth gets, you can just keep tacking them onto the family number. So Bulbasaur would be 1a, ivysaur 1b, charmander 2a, charizard 2c, etc.
I like how sun and moon officially paired some pokemon together (like miltank and tauros) by putting them on a page with eachother when adding them to the pokedex. It is probably the most official way to decide which pairs of species belong together in a pokedex
It's also worth noting that in every generation that Tauros and Miltank exist, they're next to one another in the regional Pokedex. I wonder what other Pokemon that is true for?
I like how you brought up how Nidorans being 2 seperate slots artificially bumps Mew to 151 and Mewtwo to 150. That has bugged me for awhile now. This weird disorganization of Pokemon's official PokeDex order really makes me appreciate how Yo-Kai Watch 1, 2 and 3 did the Medallium. In those 3DS games, they order the monsters by their Tribes(their "monster family" sorta like Dragon Quest Monsters. The closest thing Pokemon has are its Egg Groups). Also each Tribe orders the members losely by Rank and rarity with its common E Ranks at the start and the Rare S Ranks at the back sorta like the PokeDex. Legendaries go to the back after all the Tribes followed by any new additions from all its free DLC. The best part is that they ALWAYS reordered monsters in later games to make the order make more sense. For example, Jibanyan S and Komasan S may be at the back of Yo-Kai Watch 2's Medallium as free DLC additions but were reordered to be way earlier in number order and closer to their counterparts in Yo-Kai Watvh Busters and Yo-Kai Watch 3. Just one of many small features of good game design in Yo-Kai Watch lacking in Pokemon. I would even argue the Paradox robot designs were one of many recent ideas Pokemon took from Yo-Kai Watch games.
As a massive YKW fan myself, I wouldn't really say Medallion ordering is similar to NatDex ordering in terms of importance to a given mon's "image", making the comparison kinda iffy. As was stated in the video, NatDex numbers are used all over merch (specifically for the Kanto mons), are sometimes used as specific symbolic milestones (Gholdengo being 1000), or even just as fun nods (Pikachu being 25 and Meowth being 52 possibly poking fun at a "cat and mouse" dynamic). Going outside of the idea of keeping the numbers as they are for appearances, due to how long Pokemon's been going on, reshuffling the dex every gen would probably do way more to confuse people than how it is now, given every gen but one has made an addition to a previous dex in some way-meaning numbers would shift around constantly as mons are added. I suppose this is more of a consequence of how the order wasn't thought through sooner, though. One more thing I'd argue is that a given mon being firmly placed in the dex of their region specifically (regardless of their evolutionary ties) grounds it as a Pokemon from 'X' region, which they'll be showcased as such for the purposes of branding-another thing Yo-Kai Watch doesn't have to worry about given each new set of Yo-Kai that follow a given theme that'd ground them to a "region" (those being Old Springdale and BBQ) are simply given a new classification in the Medallion-Classic and 'Merican Yo-Kai-as well as being tied to a new Watch-Model Zero and Model U-which, in turn, are considered FAR more important to the branding of the series given how the collection aspect of Yo-Kai Watch has a physical element Pokemon largely lacks.
@@captainmarsh3664Fair points. I would also argue Yo-Kai Watch's monsters have WAY more personality. So they don't really need to be defined by an index number as opposed to how shallow Pokemon's monsters are.
@@ebitachy Hey now, that's not really fair. Even if I disagree in this particular instance, there legitimately is quite a bit Pokemon could learn from the Yo-Kai Watch series despite the gulf in popularity, particularly the 3DS main series games, and more particularly Yo-kai Watch 3.
@@ebitachyWhere did I say that? Is there a problem with liking multiple monster collector RPGs or their game design any different from how Game Freak's Pokemon devs liked Dragon Quest and its monster collecting that came before Pokemon?
I dont think theres any problem with the national dex, but a huge amount of these suggestions, but I think this would be pretty simple to address by merely leaving national dex numbering intact as the one true ID to avoid confusion while turning this idea into a full fledged feature in a dex focused game like the legends series. Adding it as an entirely new feature that wouldn't just add a logical family order, perhaps with a rough grouping by egg group), but further including special sorts and internal IDs like egg groups, discovery order (as much as lore allows), primary typing order, etc. to the Pokedex is a computer inventory system, and the pokedex should have the power of one to present information, not on preset divisions. Could easily add groupings by egg groups, sorts by usage rates, spawn rates, etc... IE, make a separate guide for Pokemon like Bulbapedia far less needed and keep doing improvements like Go has done with some of what I've mentioned.
Awesome list! Would it be possible to share a document of this list, cause I always wanted to order my Pokémon this way as well, but bothered by a lot of inconsistencies that would still remain and it's a lot of effort. This is honestly the perfect dex in my opinion and would not change anything.
I ended up formatting it visually when I was making it cause it was easier to organise and re-arrange so I don't have a text version of the entire thing typed out, but I just put the full res image of the dex order that I used at the end of the video in the description!
Thank you! The numbering is really annoying, especially when new gens introduce new evolutions & pre-evolutions (along with regional variants). Also, even if the games don't ever add 100% of the Pokemon again, any Pokemon they do add to the games should have an accompanying Pokedex entry! I absolutely hate that they'll introduce new Pokemon in raids or DLC, yet the Pokedex will still say 400/400 or something, and I can't sort/search boxes for the newly added Pokemon either. If you put them in the game at ANY point, add them to the Pokedex dammit! 😅
Love this ! I share a lot of your thoughts You should do a video in which you change the types of pokemons to a more accurate version - Trapinch bug ground, Vibrava bug dragon, Flygon bug dragon for example - keep up the good work 🇨🇵
I didn’t realize just how messed up the national dex was. Paldea especially needs to be taken out back. I’ve got a national dex myself, but honestly I may use this numbering system for myself
Nidoran M & F are closer to Meowstic in concept: one pokémon with different gender-related forms that also have different move sets. So this should have been a Gen VI correction, not a Gen IV one. Great video!
@jgr7487 They might have been able to get away with it too in Gen 6, since they were already doing a big shake-up of previous pokemon by retconning fairy type into existence. Might have been their best shot at doing any other big revisions on the dex while making the jump to 3D.
I organize my Home's dex by the follow priority list. National dex number, any forms that pokemon has, like gender or patterns and such, then any regional forms it has or other variants like a paradox. Lastly if has any out of order additions to it's family I pull them in and line them up as a family, so Pikachu line looks like Pichu, both Pikachu base variants, all the hats versions, then both Raichu variants, then Raichu's regional form. Takes awhile to adjust when stuff gets added but I personally like to organize.
Yes on Nidoran being consolidated. It is a major reason I think at some point there is going to need to be a massive re-update to stuff that have just been hokd overs from previous generations. Including to at least make Nidorina able to breed. I think that things like regionals should receive sub numbers. Such that if Meowth kept its number, it would actually be number 52.1, with Alolan being 52.2 and Galarian being 52.3. The Persians would be 53.1 and 53.2 and Perrserker 54. Or perhaps letters for additions, although that might be for Pokemon with different forms that can change, like Rottom.
@MarshtompGames I think a gimmick being a national dex number is kind of dumb. Even so, for the single change you could move Archaldon to in front of Gholdengo. Even so, at so,e point all the evolutions should be put together.
I'll still end up keeping them in regular nat dex order, purely because I don't want to move ~1000 pokemon each time a new evolution or form gets added to an old pokemon.
Have not watched more than a minute of the video, but wanna leave this comment before I watch so I can compare how many of our thoughts are the same. I'm working on a fangame, and while I do have a setting in my dex that is the canon Nat Dex order, I *also* have a setting that I'm calling the "Family Dex". Which I've reordered in order to group things together that make sense to me. 1.) All the starters are at the beginning. This is all the grass starters in generational order, all the fire starters in generational order, then all the water starters in generational order. I immediately follow this with the Pikachu line and then the Eevee line. And then I add in the Pokémon that are in my game as additional starter options. 2.) Because Pikachu and its line are in the starter section, I follow the starter section with the *rest* of the electric rodents. 3.) At the very end of the list, I have the fossil mons, the Powerhouse Pokémon, Legendaries, Mythicals, and Ultra Beasts, in that order (the Cosmog line and Necrozma are at the end of the UB section because they're UB Legendaries). 4.) All the remaining mons are just in the middle, in roughly Nat Dex order, but adjustments are made in order to keep families together. This also includes things that are cross-generational counterparts, such as Magikarp and Feebas. 5.) Paradox mons are placed immediately after their base mon's family. This means, for example, that because Scream Tail is based on Jigglypuff, it is placed after Wigglytuff. This does mean, that there are two legendaries - Koraidon and Miraidon - just in the amorphous blob section because their base mon is a non-legendary. 6.) The two Nidorans are merged into one entry with sexual dimorphism a la Meowstic/Indeedee/Oinkologne, but their evolutions are not. I do recognize that there are other archetypes that I can condense into their own sections (regional birds, regional Normal-type rodents, regional route 1 bugs, etc.) but I don't know how many of those are intentional on Game Freak's part, and how many instead just come about from a logical standpoint of "the first creatures you're gonna collect are bugs and rodents, and then you work your way to birds". 9:24 you talk about starters being rebranded as First Partner Pokémon (a change I do agree is stupid. Starter Pokémon is a brand.) But you seem to have missed that Pseudo-Legendaries are now called Powerhouse Pokémon (which I think makes sense. They *are* strong, by design, and it's better than labeling them as "not legendary".)
At first i thought it was Dumb having the Mythical be first in the Dex but now i have kinda grown to having them #1 Makes it feel like they have been there since the Region Started. 0001 Mew 0002 Bulbasaur 0003 Ivysaur 0004 Venusaur
Your count was spot-on for Gholdengo... Iiiiiif you count every regional as a new entry, which the games already don't, so idk, I'm not up for taking that list and renumbering them... Tonight... Also fun fact the first 151 in this list makes it to Lickilicky, and that makes me irrationally angry lol
I have thought about the subject before, although mine was along the lines of an amalgamation, putting less emphasis on the regions. The idea is all starters evolution lines as of generation, before moving onto the Caterpie evolution lines. All the fossil pokemon would be together, but I also think it could transition into pokemon of unclear to artificial origins. As there are some points that Pokemon revived from fossils might not be entirely accurate, some very clearly so. With then having the Pokemon like Porygon. Lugia would be after the legendary birds, and Ho-oh after the beasts. The idea of tying pokemon groups that have a connection.
For my PTCG binders, I have a sort-of-improvised national dex order, where I keep the evolution families together, and finding things that just felt right to belong (such as certain gimmicks that affect evolution stages in the TCG, or alternate versions of mons like regionals, "convergent" mons, and paradox).
I like most of the changes you have! For me personally I think with the Ultra Beasts, since they are from another dimension, that they technically dont belong to "our PokéUniverse" so I think all Ultra Beasts should be in their own Ultra Beast dex, so in organizing (lets say using Pokemon HOME as its our best way for organizating all generations of Mons at the moment), Id put them at the back of the dex, in a separate box, with an asterisk to indicate that these mons have been recorded and their existence is acknowledged, but we cannot consider them in our dex... Another set of mons that I feel should get their own research dex is the paradox mons...a dex for Past Paradoxes all with asterisks ( with the notation that we are 99.9% sure that they are the predecessors for their mondern counterparts, "until further research) And these same changes with Future Pokémon...however we cant state a 99% certainty with their existence...they are more like Ultra Beasts where we can recognize their existence, but because events can change the future we cant guarantee them in our PokéUniverse
While I would arrange the Dex a bit differently and not count regional forms as a separate entry, I've been wanting to see cross-regional evolution lines and similar legendaries/mythicals grouped together for some time
That's probably what they're gonna do if they ever make a game with all pokemon. A game after gen 10 that closes this chapter of the franchise. Sounds impossible, but a few years back an open world pokemon game sounded impossible too
A concept as it is for this video, its fine. However, functionally, for Gamefreak, its a pain to do, as they have to keep multiple things into consideration. First off, the concept of counterpart Pokemon is already making this kinda problematic. For example Ekans and Sandshrew lines are counterparts from gen 1 too 7, but lost the status in gen 7, when Sandshrew got its Alolan Form, while Ekans didn't. In gen 7, Sandshrew became counterparts with Vulpix, meaning in the National Dex, you need to put Vulpix and Sandshrew next to eachother in gen 7. Another problem is cross-generation evolutions... as then you not only need to change the National dex, but also the regional dexes. For example - as Pichu is the first in the line, you need to take Pikachu out of the Kanto Regional Dex, as its not first in line anymore and in order for the National Dex to make sense. It goes the other way around too... Johto loses Kingdra, Bellssom, Slowking, Politoed and Crobat... they need to be put in Kanto regional, as they are evolutions to a Kanto Pokemon. Like, looking at Paldea, taking into account the National Dex, Dudunsparce, Farigiraf, , Kingambit, Annihilape, Dipplin/Hydrapple, Archaludon aren't gen 9 Pokemon, because they are placed amongst their evolutonariy relatives that came out generations earlier. This is why Gamefreak does the National Dex the way they do, otherwise, it becomes a mess that doesn't makes sense dex wise.
Id like to have totally redone regional dexes sometime. Go through each game and completely overhaul pokemon distribution- Get a real index of every region's pokemon, including wierd cases like roamers and the pokemon that flooded into hoenn in oras post groudon/kyogre event.
The way you pronounce Arceus is the official pronunciation in Japan. Its only different in localised versions because they realised that it sounds like arse in English.
Hell yes, I've done this exact thought experiment before and agree with just about all of your reasons and conclusions - though I did go for some of the more subjective changes like Tauros/Miltank. Glad to see I'm not the only one with this particular brain worm.
It is funny how Carbink is just chilling with the Mythicals lol. Also, wouldn’t the Pokémon who are described or killing and eating prey also count for the confirmed kill count club?
I wrote the "The confirmed kill count club" part into the script based on a tweet I remembered seeing a while ago, although when I found it again while editing i realised it wasn't as good as I remembered (as it only listed the Kitakami legendaries + Koraidon and Miraidon). While remaking it, I wanted to go with direct, first-hand examples from the games where a specific pokemon killed another person or pokemon, so not including stuff like dex entries alluding to Pokemon that kill people/prey or anything like that. You learn that Guzzlord directly killed one of the Fallers that Looker worked with, Iron Tusk/Treads kill an explorer in Heath's first-hand recount of the Area Zero expedition, Koraidon/Miraidon kill the version-specific Professor, the Kitakami trio kill the masked foreigner (although Munkidori technically wasn't directly involved in it), and Ogerpon then killed killed the three of them.
@@CannedWolfMeat It is crazy how Iron Tusk and Iron Treads are in that camp of killing a person within the story. I am also pretty sure Darkrai killed a child in Gen 5, so I guess they would count too. Pidgey and Pigeotto also killed a worm during their debut appearances in the anime, which I think is worth noting and I was wondering if that would include them with the in-lore kill count club?
what are your thoughts on future-proofing the dex by using a decimal system? For example: Bulbasaur is 1.1, ivysaur is 1.2, and so on. That allows you to add new forms without changing the entire pokedex numbers. For alternate forms you can even add another decimal. For example, a theoretical regional bulbasaur could be 1.1.1
I personally classify Meltan & Melmetal as a sorta Ultra Beast, but specifically the one native to our dimension since it shares the same inhuman-like designs as the other UBs, so essentially a Mythical Ultra Beast
Since gen 5, eggs from Volbeat or Illumise have a 50/50 chance of hatching into either one, and since Volbeat is 100% male and Illumise is 100% female this implies they are the same species by the same logic used to combine the Nidoran into a single entry
Lol, the image is gone "We searched high and low, but we couldn’t find the page you're looking for. It may have been moved or deleted, or may never have existed at all." -Imgur
Someone pointed out the original image had a slight error on it so took that one down - check the description again and you should find a new link with the fixed version.
(Yes I realise I misplaced Spritzee in the final image at the end - obviously that's a mistake I made while assembling it and there's a link in the description to the full image which has been fixed. Overall I'd say 1 mistake out of 1083 is a fairly decent margin for error when making a big list like this.)
Oh, so it's the same type of Pokemon error as Markiplier smash or pass (see the spritzee part of that video)
This was a great watch, and I agree with pretty much all of your changes!!! It's kind of sad we'll never see things get properly rearranged for branding purposes - I'm still coming to terms with pre-existing Pokemon getting an extra 0 in their dex numbers LOL
Soon, people with birthdays from. 0101 to 1231 will have a birthday pokemon!!
@@grizzgo i'm keen to see when people from 01/01 to 31/12 get pokémon for each of their birthdays
@@Br0oham might be a few decades for that LOL
Yoooo, wsp Absol.
Absol 💙
Something I also want to point out I really feel like the name national dex should be changed at minimum to international dex
I don't see the point, nations don't seem to exist in pokemon and all the regions so far don't seem seperated by national borders
I agree, though at the time it made sense. Kanto and Johto are regions of Japan, as are Hoenn (Kyushu) and Sinnoh (Hokkaido). Only Unova onwards are based on different countries. In fact, you could call Charmander-Arceus the national dex, and victini onwards the international dex, including all regional forms. Though I don’t think the modern lore supports this division.
@@joshuasims5421 I mean fair don't get me wrong but it does kinda feel in the pokemon world that they are their own Nations but I guess we won't truly know the geopolitics of the pokemon world any time soon
Pokemon universe only has one world government
@@cleverman383 I don't think it has been explicitly said one way or the other
Fun fact, Tauros and Miltank are actually associated with each other in official media! In the Alola pokedex, the two of them occupy the same page, like any evolutionary family (minus the Cosmog line which is split up)
That makes since theyre both Cattle, and Miltank is just the cow while Tauros is the bull
Someday we'll get a Nidoran-style calf pre-evolution to merge the family
In the original Johto Regional 'Dex, Tauros is #148 and Miltank is #149.
In Kanto, until the Let's Go games, Tauros is exclusive to the Safari Zone (in Japanese Blue it's a Trade Exclusive), making it canonically not native to Kanto.
It can be found in the wild in Johto, Kalos, Alola, and Galar and can be found via Poke Radar or Underground in Sinnoh. Everywhere Miltank can be found, Tauros can be found too.
When Tauros is found in Horde battles, Miltank may join it.
When Tauros or Miltank calls SOS, its ally can be either Tauros of Miltank.
They are treated everywhere in the games they both exist as if they are part of the family, so I think it makes a lot of sense to move Tauros into the Johto Pokedex right before Miltank.
The idea I had keeps the order, so not all legends in the back for example, but organizes by family. Each family gets its own number, then each Pokemon gets a sub number.
1-1 Bulbasaur
1-2 Ivysaur
1-3 Venusaur
2-1 Charmander
And so on…
This way it’s easier to add evolutions as time goes on without banishing them to the end of the national dex.
Really good idea 💡
Honestly yeah that's a really good alternative. I guess only problem with it would be when they add pre-evolutions though, but it's still a much more scalable system than what we have currently.
@@CannedWolfMeatusually pre evolutions that are added are babies, and babies can be treated like they are in the card games aka 0.
@@smashmaniac2008 and if a line gets two babies the second one can be a negative one to the pokemon's potential-
I've had a similar idea but I've always come up with the issue of Game Freak's tendency to add on additions to certain groups of Pokemon.
Like how the Regis have had 3 new additions to their group, the Ultra Beasts getting new additions, etc. .
You could technically count each group (legendary groups, rival/duo Pokemon, Ultra Beasts, Paradoxes, etc) in its own number but that goes away from the species specific system.
Which is to say the number system itself is inherently flawed for an eternally incomplete system like a biological database of creatures. Where just one new entry into it would facilitate moving everything else around to accommodate it.
My only serious issue with this idea is that eventually as more Pokemon are added as evolutions later on, Gimmeghoul and Gholdengo will lose that 1000th Pokemon slot, OR they’ll be pushed out of Paldea. The idea isn’t futureproofed, but for the time being, your changes are very effective.
How would Gimmighoul and Gholdengo get booted out of Paldea? The only way that would happen is if a baby Pokémon showed up elsewhere, and given gimmighoul’s moveset I doubt that would happen…
I think they mean that if more new forms/evolutions/pre-evolutions/regional variants are introduced for earlier Pokémon, numbers 999 and 1000 might end up being somewhere within the Galar dex (and then even earlier if we’re looking further ahead). So if you absolutely wanted to keep them at those numbers, they wouldn’t be in the right region anymore
while i agree, gimmeghould and gholdengho are only in slot 999 and 1000th as a novelty which was maintained, but a proper "international dex" that includes future pokemon and new preevolutions/ regional variants etc, will indeed make them lose the 999 and 1000 slot. But that isnt really a problem since again its a novelty.
I dont understand why it matters so much for gholdengo to be 1000
@@Snt1_ gholdengo evolves with 999 coins and is made of 1000 coins
A video on efficient sorting of imaginary creatures? Oh you shouldn't have!
Finally... some good f*cking food
Its actually not efficient, because it doesn't work.
Replace the empty Nidoran slot with baby Kangaskhan and keep it at 151 for the original gen.
Better idea, keep them separate.
The rest of the count brings it to 224 for Kanto lol, baby Kangaskhan would be 225
Alright, what I'm about to suggest would REALLY step on the toes of a lot of gamefreak design decisions, but would really add to your current ordering and would help future-proof the pokedex for any future additions. Basically, why are evolution lines considered separate species of pokemon? Every Bulbasaur will turn into an Ivysaur and a Venusaur, so I suggest we simply combine their dex entries in a way. Bulbasaur is 001.1, the first of it's line. Ivysaur is 001.2, Venusaur is 001.3. Charmander is 002.1, and so on. This way, if a random pokemon like Arbok for example gets a new evolution, it would become 009.3 instead of shuffling every single other pokemon over. Also, if a Pokemon has a regional form, it can be distinguished by well, an A, G, H, P, or so on. Alolan Raichu would be 10.2A, compared to regular/Kanto Raichu being 10.2. As for Baby pokemon, they'd be distinguished by a Zero, Pichu would be 10.0. You could also add Megas and Gigantamax forms in the same way as regional forms, with an M or GM, though other more complex forms like Alcremie, could fall apart with this sort of classification. Now, majorly in particular, Gholdengho would no longer be #1000, and could be moved back in the dex to somewhere it could Make a little more sense progression wise, but other than that, I believe this would satisfy the pokedex indefinitely.
Categorizing it like that would be a great idea, should just rename it decimal dex or something, a simplified view, rather than a nostalgic cluttered one.
I imagine it's because certain parts of their biology are fundamentally different like how in real life, we uniquely identify tadpoles and frogs or caterpillars and butterflies even though they too are in the same families. That and, unlike tadpoles or caterpillars, Pokemon can live their whole lives from birth to death presumably without ever evolving (old Treecko in the anime as an example) meaning that evolution wouldn't be influenced by aging and so can't be treated as integral to their official life cycle
What skarmtsk said. Also new babies would then shunt the rest of the family down, smaller but still an issue. Oh and split Evos would feel weird. Oddish x.1, Gloom x.2, Vileplume x.3, Bellossom x.4? like I know that's what it already is with whole numbers, but making it a decimal seems to specifically draw attention to "look this family goes 1>2>3 except for when it's not" yknow?
@@TheNeraum I believe I covered those situations in my original comment. Babies show up as a "0" in the line, whether they're babies of new Pokemon (Like Riolu or Toxel were) Or of existing pokemon (Like Pichu and Cleffa). So if we happen to get a baby Skarmory for example, it would take Skarmory's number, and add a .0 to it's end, while an evolution of Skarmory would be a .2. And split evolutions are a fair point, but they are still inherently related. Thus Vileplume and Bellossom would be X.3 and X.4, or they could be X.3.1 and X.3.2, being distinguished by number rather than by Letter, as Regional forms are. Wooper would be W.1, Paldean wooper would be W.1P, Quagsire would be W.2.1, and Clodsire would be W.2.2. (W being the actual number for Wooper). I guess there's many more kinks to work out, however the point of this style of Pokedex Number reworking is to continue to group related Pokemon together, and be flexible to accommodate new additions to old favorites. And as for the idea of how we distinguish Frogs from Tadpoles, yes we do have different names for them, but that doesn't mean they are separate species. If a frog lays eggs, the tadpoles that hatch are always the same species as their mother, and turn into the same frog she is.
I'd really like to see a full single image of the whole adjusted Pokédex, rather than a scrolled list of boxes, it could be good to see the comparison between the current and adjusted nat dex
Would you mind watching the video to the end and checking the description? The full image is in the description like literally.
@@xyannail4678 woah like actually literally? No way, watched till the end, no mention of it that I heard
@@Br0oham But, it's in the description. No problem I guess.
Arceus’ name was indeed originally pronounced ARR-see-yuss, but at some point British-English speakers (or their moms with too much time on their hands) complained because the name had a syllable that sounded like “arse.” So they gave it the new pronunciation.
If anything this video makes me more happy with the idea Nidoran has two separate Pokédex numbers, as you said Burmy is the other Pokémon with evolutions for both genders, but Burmy itself does not have gendered forms. The Nidorans being able to produce offspring of the other species isn’t unique to them either, Volbeat and Illumise do the same thing. The two also have different stats and movesets, not unheard of in Pokémon that vary by gender but I think the Nidorans meet so many criteria met by few to no other Pokémon that it makes sense they are classified as different species, really them sharing a name is the only thing that makes it feel odd
Guzzlord kill count is definitely more than 1 lmao, it straight up devour melemele island of its dimension
it's confirmed kill count, there's no confirmation that the citizens of that version of the city didn't just evacuate
I know you said you didn't want to talk about it, but I agree with you. Are-se-us matches the Japanese pronunciation, and since legendaries are meant to broadly retain their names/pronunciations across all languages, it's the only correct pronunciation in my mind.
I’ve been wanting to do something like this for a while now, particularly with Kanto’s dex because I find it criminal that they’ve refused to give us an expanded regional dex in two sets of remakes purely for the sake of the 151 brand recognition. It’s nice to see it all laid out like this.
Only change I’d personally make is to put the Kitakami Pokémon after the Paldean ones. Same gen, same game, technically different region, but I do understand why you did it the way you did.
I feel like Kekleon didn't need to be moved, since yes, it is a road block, but it is also just a Pokémon native to specifically that part of Hoen.
The Hoenn dex is ordered by the order in which you encounter the pokemon in the game. But this national dex doesn't really take that into account. That's why the fossils were moved to the end, even though you can get them before you get surf.
@@AgusSkywalker Yes, but in this video, "Roadblock" Pokemon such as Snorlax, Sudowoodo, and Kecleon are moved to the end.
"Roadblock" Pokemon are defined as a Pokemon that blocks a path on the map, must be battled to continue, and isn't found in the wild in its original region.
Kecleon is found in the wild at a 1% encounter rate in nearly every grassy route East of Mauville City in Hoenn, which makes it fail the final criteria. It should not be moved to the end of the 'dex.
Incidentally, both Snorlax and Sudowoodo have baby forms which can be caught in the wild in Sinnoh, making a somewhat strong case that they are native to Sinnoh and should remain there.
For the Nidoran kerfuffle, the easiest and most backwards compatible solution would be to give a slight rename and just settle with them being separate species with a single possible gender (a nidorano/nidorana split, for example). In-game, you can get male nidorans on the daycare using Ditto.
This is exactly the type of nerdy sorting and classification content my neurodivergent brain desires 👀👀👀👀
Oh finally, we're FINALLY talking about the Nidoran Pokédex problem, THANK YOU! I swear, the only reason they haven't consolidated them is due to the way they marketed the number 150/151.
I hate that people consider it a “problem” Separating Pokémon like Meowstic and Indeedee would’ve been a better idea.
Gen 4: Here is a pre-evolution for Mantine that can only evolve if you have a Remoraid in your party!
Also, Gen 4: This is the first generation where Mantine doesn't have a Remoraid present in it's sprite!
Obviously, that because it ate the Remoraid in order to evolve.
Love how you organised this National dex by region
But I do like the idea of grouping certain Pokemon by category in a separate dex
Categories: Starters, early route Pokemon (divided further by mammal, bird, and bug), pika variants, fossils, aquatic, pseudo legendary, sub legendary, legendary, mythical, Ultra Beast, Paradox
Of course this still leaves a huge chunk of the dex unclassified, maybe organise the remaining Pokemon based on habitat (forest, mountain, desert, cityscape)
FRLG introduced habitats in their Pokedex: Grassland, Forest, Water's-edge, Sea, Cave, Mountain, Rough-terrain, Urban, Rare.
It would be neat to see each region re-ordered to have starters, early-route mammal/bird/bug, [each habitat], [region-specific gimmic?] pseudo-legends, legendaries, mythicals.
I formally beg you to please move Delibird one slot later so as to keep Mantine and Skarmory together, given that they are version-exclusive counterparts. Their stat spreads are literally the exact same but switching physical atk and def with special atk and def
Thats the issue with this honestly.
Like... counterparts are subject to change. Skarmory and Mantine are counterparts in gen 2 and gen 3, but they lost that status in gen 4, when Mantyke became a thing.
For example - Pinsir and Scyther being counterparts in gen 1, but losing the status in gen 2, with both getting another counterpart partner
Pinsir gained Heracross and Scyther became counterparts with Onix, which means Onix needs to be placed next to Scyther in Kanto's national dex.
The reason Scyther and Onix became counterparts is that both evolve by trading, while holding Metal Coat and got a Mega in gen 6.
However, the counterpart argument is subjective anyways, while i have seen people considering Arbok and Weezing to be counterparts, because Jessie and James had them in the anime. Despite that however, Arbok is counterparts (Or was until gen 7) with Sandshrew line.
Like, another example is that until gen 4, Jynx was considered a counterpart to Electabuzz and Magmar. However, while Electabuzz and Magmar remained counterparts, they lost Jynx as a counterpart partner. However, Rhyhorn line joined them. All have the same evolutionary method.
Electabuzz evolves into Electivire holding Electrizer while traded
Magmar evolves into Magmator holding Magmarizer while traded
Rhydon evolves into Rhyperior holding Protector while traded
Which means you have to put Rhyhorn/Rhydon next to Magmar/Electabuzz in the Kanto Dex.
@@nickdentoom1173 Scyther and Onix aren't counterparts-"counterpart" needs to mean something other than simply "version exclusives" or "Pokemon that have similar evolution methods", or you run into all the bugaboos that you listed in your comment. Trying to come up with too many subcategories to put Pokemon in is just going to inevitably lead to more confusion, so the best thing to do is just keep it at the official categories we already have.
I'd say instead to move Delibird before Corsola. That way, it can be with its fellow Ice Path inhabitant Swinub, instead of the total randos Skarmory and Houndour
@@becausesakamoto5938 I am just pointing out the issue with the ordering here, even if some Pokemon might or might not be counterparts, it was just an example.
Like, Heracross and Pinsir being counterparts, so they need to be next to eachother is problematic. It either makes Pinsir a gen 2 mon, or Heracross a gen 1. Its the same with Electabuzz/Magmar and Hitmonchan/Hitmonlee and the other introduced baby mons
Elekid is the first in the line, so we need to remove Electabuzz from gen 1 and Electivire from gen 4 and put them behind Pichu in the dex.
The problem is that every new Pokedex, starts with a Starter Pokemon (Or Victini, but that ordering is terrible anyways and slotting Victini at the end of Unova doesn't change anything dex count wise). So in that vain, you cannot introduce new Pokemon in those generations anymore, because the National Dex also goes from Starter to Starter generation wise.
and then scyther lost his counterpart a second time since kleavor showed up
The best part of Diplin and Hydrapple is that even before The Indigo Disc, we knew Diplin was going to evolve because Eviolite worked on it.
I like this new order a lot. Zigzagoon is one of my only problems, because it's especified that the Galarian form is the original one and the Hoennian is the variant. So Zigzagoon and Linoone should go to Galar, at least in my opinion.
Pretty nice tho!
Might have to go an organize my Home dex like this now... This is peak, always wondered about this sort of idea. I wonder though, if maybe Mew should steal Victini's gimmick and become Pokemon #0 of this version of the natdex.
I don't like breaking the legendaries sorting that much, but it makes so much sense. Mew is rumored to be the ancestor of all living Pokemon, so if anyone deserves a 0 placement, it's Mew.
That might also lead us to consider Unown as the 0 version of its Pokedex or Arceus as the 0the position of its.
hearing Lewis at the end caught me off guard again
One slight change I would make, delibird should not be put in between mantine and skarmory. Mantine and skarmory were originally clear counterparts with mirrored stats (skarmory has 140 defense, mantine 140 spdef, and so on). It’s gotten a bit muddied over the years as mantine gained a few stat points breaking the mirror as well as a pre evolution, and it was in a weird place to begin with since it was also associated with remoraid. So I wouldn’t really call them true counterparts anymore, but still, if we’re reorganizing the dex anyway why not keep them together and put delibird after.
Great video overall, this organization makes so much more sense than the official one and I appreciate how consistent it is.
The Pokemon Company retroactively changed the type for magnetite to include Steel, and added the Fairy type to multiple old critters. Consolidating the Nidorans would've been a problem for the reasons you listed but in the end still worth it, and not fully unprecedented since they've retroactively made changes before. Honestly the longer TPC waits to consolidate the Nidorans the worse it gets, they should've done it years ago
They'll never do it because they'd be foolish to officially undercut the original 151, espeically now when their PR is bad enough. I can already see the articles of "Pokemon says the original 151 is actually only 150" people would be fuckin pissed.
@@TheWrathAbove i think about it often, because their branding was originally 150 anyway! little surprise baby mew was not expected by the developers, marketers, etc. 151 is obviously here to stay forever now, though. i just think its interesting XD
I think my problem with the Pokedex is if it doesn't have a critter native to the region, it recycles stuff from up to 20 years ago. This is annoying for some Pokémon who are only found in one region like Glameow and Furfrou.
The only canned Wolf meat I can trust!
I loved watching this!
A couple years ago I started a project I called “The Natural PokéDex” that essentially reorders the National Dex in a similar way, but I really like the other changes you made! Thanks for uploading this and inspiring me to take a second look at mine!
Phenomenal video, thank you for this undertaking. I legitimately think my only criticism would be Rotom's placement, but that's not really your fault since Sinnoh had so few gift Pokémon. It just feels out of place, but I suppose that ties into your bit at the end about how the Pokedex has changed as of the past few generations.
I think there's room for both orders to co-exist. Maintain the traditional order for branding purposes, but also offer this order ingame as a more practical alternative.
20:31 IS THAT DRAWN TO LIFE MUSIC I HEAR?!?!
Outside of naming conventions being "pokemon says its name usually", there's a case to axe two more Kanto mons, uniting the Nido family from 6, to 5 like you did, to 3-4 -- While Burmy is the only mon with distinct different evolutions by gender, it's not the only mon who has a gender difference, as there's a mon with a /moveset/ difference between genders on the evolution; Espurr's evolution, Meowstic, has both different hidden abilities, and different level up movesets, between the male and female versions, as well as distinct visual differences between them (something they've also only done a few other times, like with Frillish/Jellicent) -- between Burmy's setup in gen4, and Espurr>Meowstic in gen 6, I'm of the opinion that if the Nidos had been made in a more modern generation (4-on), we very well would have seen them as a 4 (Nidoran > Nidorin?, eschewing -o and -a as gendered name affixes > NidoKing/Queen) or even possibly a 3 with some gender-oblivious title suffix for the final stage, but keeping the gender biased levelups we've seen.
22:23 wouldve been nice to get their channel name! ^_^; (Babu's Game Room, for those curious!)
@hamburgerbroz6439 I put a link to it in the top corner at that part of the video with the channel name to send people there directly
Ive been wanting Game Freak to do something like this for so long, especially the Nidoran dilemma, so I’m glad to see someone else agree!! Great video!!
What Nidoran dilemma?
@@one_with_kevrything9825 girl what
@@xseacreature There's no overt dilemma. The Nindorans look distinct between male and female so I've never seen an issue with the names.
@@one_with_kevrything9825 ok mr semantics over here
While I generally and broadly agree with the contents of this video there are a few notes I would make.
#1 you should probably section legendaries/mythicals into a second pokédex, rather than attach them to the end of each region. While it is fun they don't often play by the rules because their origins can intertwine with others.
#2 Miltank are frequently a pair with Tauros, the exception seemingly being gen 1 & games like it (let's go) until gen 9 where only Tauros gets a regional form without miltank.
#3 there are a strange number of pokémon which are clearly pairs or mirrors of each other that are not listed next to each other, and I would move them to be adjacent. Such as the Clefairy line and the Jigglypuff line having Vulpix between them, who itself is obviously a pair with Growlithe and Arcanine.
I wouldn't say the Jigglypuff and Clefairy lines are properly pairs/mirrors of each other- they have very similar designs and the same trajectory of their evolution lines (a baby introduced in gen 2 and final stages which can be evolved to with a Moon stone), but that really seems more like a case of gen 1 being kind of uninspired with designs, and within the universe the lines have no real connection. As for your point about the Vulpix and Growlithe lines, they're sometimes (but not always) version exclusives, as are a number of other Pokemon. The idea of them being connected loses a lot of credibility when seeing that the Vulpix line got regional forms in Alola which are version exclusives with the Alolan Sandshrew line, and the Growlithe line didn't get regional forms until Legends: Arceus. For these not obviously related lines that happen to occasionally be version exclusives opposite to each other, it makes much more sense to keep the order as it is to reflect where the Pokemon are located in the games.
I think looking at each of the regional dexes might make it less subjective which Pokemon should be considered "counterparts" and grouped together and which shouldn't.
Any lines that are ALWAYS grouped together when they appear in regional Pokedexes should be grouped together in the national. (in GSC, Clefairy is adjacent to Jigglypuff and Vulpix is adjacent to Growlithe. I'm not sure about their other appearances)
I'm very curious as an exercise what it would look like if we tried to rebuild the national pokedex with only the regional 'dexes to guide us.
This is excellent. You put a lot of time into these, and it shows. Keep up the good work!
I came into this thinking I had some snarky points I could make that you wouldn't address, but you addressed them, and I was swayed. Good video.
My dream is that they someday make a MASSIVE Pokemon game with _every single region,_ and the plot behind the game is that a scientist is fed up with misinformation and unscientific wording in the official Pokedex, so he send you (the trainer) on a quest to catch ALL the different Pokemon to make a fully complete National Dex (combining all the dex entries together and getting rid of the wacky nonsensical ones to make one definitive description of a Pokemon and their abilities).
I know its absurdly ambitious, and would NEVER realistically happen... But COME ON! You can't deny it would be _awesome!_ They could even go the Legends: Arceus route and trim out the Elite Four and Trainer Battles to focus more on _catching_ Pokemon instead (which might make the idea more realistic to pull off, since they wouldn't need to make an entire overarching plot or anything like that... Just the true "Gotta Catch Em All" experience!)
Every single region is a dream
Sounds like something you could do as a fan game, I doubt GameFreak would be on board with that big of a scope
Having every single region in one game sounds good, but it’s actually a horrendous idea. By the time you’ve done everything in one region, you’re so high level that the next region will have to be super hard, and then you’ve basically gotten to Level 100 by the third. And you still have seven more to go!?
It’s not feasibly possible to properly balance without gutting most regions of content. Overall, an idea that people really need to stop dreaming about cause it just won’t work.
@@PrincessDella Agreed. And i have seen people throw out the suggestion that after every region, you cannot take your older Pokemon with you and that you get reset by being able to choose another level 5 starter Pokemon and start completely over in another region. But then whats the point in having multiple regions. Like, we have seen with Johto and Kanto, having more than 2 regions in one game isn't viable at all.
@@PrincessDella it could work, what you are saying is that experience would need to be massively overhauled. If i could make a fan game, then ever pokemon could instantly become level 50, in terms of stats, and the experience bar, would then become: learn a new move. Every time the xp bar goes up, your pokemon will want to learn a new move, and every 25ish experience bars, you get prompted that your pokemon wants to evolve (if possible). That way people that want to keep a preevolutions about, they can, whilst not being completely destroyed by higher evolution pokemon, players can "roleplay" Ash torracat defeating incineroar for example. If they so chose, and are clever with how they know/play pokemon.
It is possible it just requires rework and balance
A pretty neat idea, although I feel it's for these exact purposes that regional Pokedexes exist, which do put evolutionary lines and other related Pokemon that were introduced in seperate regions along each other, filling the in-universe need for what you describe. The national dex remaining as is was as you said probably a decision made for out-of-universe reasons, although not just branding, but also just in general after the precedent set with Gen 2, it'd just be very confusing for players if the Pokedex-number of Pokemon changed every few games, like if Bellsprouts Number changed from 69 to, say, 75 by Gen 3, then to 79 just a few Gens later, and in more recent years NatDex numbers would have to change mid-Gen, again, it would just become confusing, for a problem that regional Pokedexes already fix, to a point where... why even have the numbers in the first place? Pretty sure irl we don't order species by a number, you could just as well argue that Pokedex-numbers shouldn't be a thing if we're going for realism.
Speaking of irl though, in a certain sense I feel Pokedex-numbers are comparable to scientific species names, there's a lot of species that were given scientific names that denote them as part of the same family... only for later scientists to find out that one of them wasn't actually as related to the others as they thought and was actually more closely related to another species, yet I'm pretty sure the scientific name of a species was never or only very rarely changed to reflect that discovery (again because it would've been confusing most likely), which is very similar to how Pokedex-numbers seem to work. Another similar concept to the Pokedex I feel is the periodic table of elements, primarily because obviously the elements are also numbered, although for a more solid reason than Pokemon, but there are also many ways they can be arranged on the periodic table, while there is of course the one most well known taught in schools, there are other approaches that focus on other aspects of the elements, similarly to how the National Dex and regional Dexes order Pokemon in different ways.
Also some notes, pretty sure Victini is listed in front of the Unova Starters in the Pokedex and thus also in the National Dex because it was an event-distribution that could be received very early in the game, but obviously Unova had a completely new Pokedex with completely new Pokemon, so if Victini was at the end of the Pokedex, catching it would reveal how many Pokemon the Unova Pokedex would have, so mostly for out-of-universe reasons again. Same reason why Tornadus and Thundurus are before Reshiram and Zekrom, but Landorus between them and Kyurem, Tornadus and Thundurus can be found before the end of the game, Landorus only after, so in order not to spoil that there's a 3rd one until the postgame, it's put after, I assume.
It would be confusing if they changed the order with every generation, though it's confusing now, just in a different way.
Maybe they should re-order the National Pokedex for Gen 10? It's a nice clean number, Gen 10 can answer all sorts of questions the Pokedex still asks (such as if Corphish is an invasive species, what region is it native to?) and it would come with a tacit promise that it would be 10 more generations before they reorder the Pokedex again?
They could even excuse it in game by calling our current National 'Dex "Oak's Taxonomy" and giving a new name to this one.
I'm also very curious, if we were reconstructing the National Pokedex, given only the Regional Pokedexes as a starting point and no knowledge of the franchise, what would we end up with?
7:52 Congrats on the shiny wugtrio.
the whole video is filled with different shiny hunts
Just started watching and wanted to say I appreciate the professor look you have !!
In my perspective, what we call the National dex should be called the international dex and the term national dex should be Pokédex for a Pokédex that groups the Pokédex of regions that are based off of different areas of the same country or “nation”. Two examples of a national Pokédex with this new use of the term would be the generation four national Pokédex and grouping the Unova, Alola, and maybe Blueberry Pokédex together. This is due to the regions of generations 1-4 being based off of regions of Japan while Unova and Alola are based off of New York City and Hawaii which are part of the United States.
(Is the plural of the term Pokédex the same word or “Pokédexes”?)
Yeah, it made sense with the first 4 generations all being based off of different regions of Japan, but from Gen 5 onward it stopped making sense to call it the "national" dex.
23:22 Is there a reason you put Spritzee between Pancham and Pangoro?
Thank you for mentioning the PBR announcer, who was also the narrator of the anime. I pronounce Arceus the same way because he did. I also pronounce Lopunny, LOPunny. Not LOWpunny like a lot of YTubers do. Why because he produced it the same way in PBR and the anime.
fun video, and i like the ideas behind it!! my one change would be that regidrago should go in front of regieleki, screw what the official dex order says - the regis are supposedly representative of different eras in man's history (stone age, ice age, iron age, middle age, digital age) and the fact that the order is flipped in the official dex Pains Me So
I agree with a lot of these changes, but personally connections like miltank and tauros, while technically not confirmed, are obvious to the point they're referenced multiple times. Also, I'd personally group all of the fossil Pokémon together since its reasonable to assume that in universe, prehistoric Pokémon would be classified together, whereas paradox Pokémon remain in Scarlet and Violet as an upcoming hypothesis and not yet confirmed due the circumstances under which they were discovered.
I was so happy to see this reccomended to me I had this idea recently and think it's so so interesting and it sucks that the pokemon company probably won't do anything about it. My original idea was that instead of grouping them together by reigon discovered in, it would be interesting to have them sorted by enviornment and similarities with other pokemon, such as having a large amount of the starting bird pokemon be near each other and so on. Needs ironing out ofc but yeah, still might end up making mine, either way this video was really great!! I'm glad that there are people who feel similarly about this topic :]
also saw someone point out the insistince on having kanto refusing to have more than the 151 and it reminded me of how badly i want to see past reigons with newer pokemon in their reigonal dex game freak please it's such a small nitpick but i'd do ANYTHING these things mean a lot to me
I also like to recategorize, but I always change things in slightly different ways. First, rather than by first regional appearance, I prefer to put families where their lowest evolution is. For example, the Blissey line is in Sinnoh while Electivire line is in Johto. Second, if the Nidorans get condensed, my opinion is that Volbeat and Illumise should too. Third, Enamorus should go before Landorus, not after. And I always rearrange Kanto and Johto much more heavily to better align with the later-gen tradition of putting things in order of their appearance. Loved the video. Keep it up.
I LOVE this video so much, I've really come to appreciate the zoological aspects of the Pokémon series in recent years and this video feels like a Pokémonology student's thesis defense
I started ROM Hacking Fire Red a while ago and the first feature I implemented was a re-ordered Kanto/National 'Dex
I did move evolutions and pre-evolutions in future generations back to their originals, I rearranged pokemon into pseudo, legendary, mythical order, and I even placed Mew before Mewtwo.
I didn't think to move fossils and road-blocks to the end, but that's a great idea.
Another question I see fans ask that I haven't acted on is what to do with Safari-Zone Exclusive Pokemon. For example, the Pokemon Tauros is found in Kanto's safari zone, but with the exception of the Let's Go games, cannot be found anywhere else in Kanto. It appears to be native to Johto. I think this strengthens the argument that Tauros should be paired with Miltank, especially since the Johto regional dex lists Tauros as #148 and Miltank as #149.
Corphish is also explicitly mentioned to not be native to Hoenn, though there's no clear idea where it could be from.
The question of nativeness also runs in the other direction. In Gen 2, Houndoor, Murkrow, and Slugma are exclusive to Kanto, so should they be moved to the Kanto dex? The fact that they were nowhere to be found may suggest they were transplanted from other regions (such as Sinnoh).
There's also the issue of trade exclusives. Lickitung, Farfetch'd, Mr. Mime, and Jynx are all unavailable in Kanto and found in Johto instead. Should these be moved?
There's also an argument to be made that the roadblock Pokemon Snorlax and Sudowoodo are both native to Sinnoh. (And Kecleon doesn't count as a roadblock because it can be caught in the wild in RS on several routes).
The more we follow this logic, though, we arrive at some conclusions that don't feel intuitive. For example, Eevee was first found in the wild in Unova. Would we really want to move Eeveelutions there? I think there's a good argument that the Eevee in Unova were transplants (their location fits more with the idea that the population was progenated with pets that ran away). Instead, Eevee would be native to Kalos. We also would need to accept Togepi as a Sinnoh Pokemon and Metagross as a Unova Pokemon, and maybe even Tyrogue as from Galar.
One could also argue about version exclusives. In Gen III Kanto (only) Slowpoke is a version exclusive to LeafGreen. Slowpoke has a designated dungeon in Johto, so would we consider it Johto native? Should we give priority to any region that has a signature dungeon for a Pokemon?
Within each region, there are other ways Pokemon might be grouped. FRLG introduced habitats: Grassland, Forest, Water's-edge, Sea, Cave, Mountain, Rough-terrain, Urban, Rare. It would be interesting to see each region's Pokedex ordered by these habitats. Other options could include Egg Group, Shape, or Types.
I'm not sure which of these changes I would want to implement in FRLG. I re-ordered MANY files so that all lists of Pokemon were ordered by my revised Pokedex, so any change I make would have to be updated in many places. All that said, I like many of these ideas. It's very tempting to move the Safari Zone Exclusive, Trade Exclusive, and Gift Exclusive into other regions, especially since so many are native to Johto. That said, the Let's Go games makes that more complicated, because they made all of those Pokemon native to Kanto and I may want to mirror some of those changes, which would make them no longer non-Kanto.
(Also is that Drawn to Life music? I've never heard someone use that as a music background.)
This is a very soothing video. Thank you
Another possible approach: assign one number to an entire family, with a letter for each evolution and form, probably in order introduced. This would radically change the numbering, but also future proof the pokedex. Entirely new species would get a new number, but no matter how many regional forms Meowth gets, you can just keep tacking them onto the family number. So Bulbasaur would be 1a, ivysaur 1b, charmander 2a, charizard 2c, etc.
Drawn To Life OST is fire
I like how sun and moon officially paired some pokemon together (like miltank and tauros) by putting them on a page with eachother when adding them to the pokedex. It is probably the most official way to decide which pairs of species belong together in a pokedex
It's also worth noting that in every generation that Tauros and Miltank exist, they're next to one another in the regional Pokedex. I wonder what other Pokemon that is true for?
Love what you've done and have had very similar thought processes before. I do think that paldean Taurus should only count as one dex entry.
Poketuber starts video in a white lab coat with Professor Rowan's theme playing.
You have my attention
I’m glad someone finally acknowledged the atrocity that is the later portion of the paldea dex
I like how you brought up how Nidorans being 2 seperate slots artificially bumps Mew to 151 and Mewtwo to 150. That has bugged me for awhile now.
This weird disorganization of Pokemon's official PokeDex order really makes me appreciate how Yo-Kai Watch 1, 2 and 3 did the Medallium.
In those 3DS games, they order the monsters by their Tribes(their "monster family" sorta like Dragon Quest Monsters. The closest thing Pokemon has are its Egg Groups). Also each Tribe orders the members losely by Rank and rarity with its common E Ranks at the start and the Rare S Ranks at the back sorta like the PokeDex. Legendaries go to the back after all the Tribes followed by any new additions from all its free DLC. The best part is that they ALWAYS reordered monsters in later games to make the order make more sense. For example, Jibanyan S and Komasan S may be at the back of Yo-Kai Watch 2's Medallium as free DLC additions but were reordered to be way earlier in number order and closer to their counterparts in Yo-Kai Watvh Busters and Yo-Kai Watch 3.
Just one of many small features of good game design in Yo-Kai Watch lacking in Pokemon.
I would even argue the Paradox robot designs were one of many recent ideas Pokemon took from Yo-Kai Watch games.
As a massive YKW fan myself, I wouldn't really say Medallion ordering is similar to NatDex ordering in terms of importance to a given mon's "image", making the comparison kinda iffy.
As was stated in the video, NatDex numbers are used all over merch (specifically for the Kanto mons), are sometimes used as specific symbolic milestones (Gholdengo being 1000), or even just as fun nods (Pikachu being 25 and Meowth being 52 possibly poking fun at a "cat and mouse" dynamic). Going outside of the idea of keeping the numbers as they are for appearances, due to how long Pokemon's been going on, reshuffling the dex every gen would probably do way more to confuse people than how it is now, given every gen but one has made an addition to a previous dex in some way-meaning numbers would shift around constantly as mons are added. I suppose this is more of a consequence of how the order wasn't thought through sooner, though.
One more thing I'd argue is that a given mon being firmly placed in the dex of their region specifically (regardless of their evolutionary ties) grounds it as a Pokemon from 'X' region, which they'll be showcased as such for the purposes of branding-another thing Yo-Kai Watch doesn't have to worry about given each new set of Yo-Kai that follow a given theme that'd ground them to a "region" (those being Old Springdale and BBQ) are simply given a new classification in the Medallion-Classic and 'Merican Yo-Kai-as well as being tied to a new Watch-Model Zero and Model U-which, in turn, are considered FAR more important to the branding of the series given how the collection aspect of Yo-Kai Watch has a physical element Pokemon largely lacks.
@@captainmarsh3664Fair points. I would also argue Yo-Kai Watch's monsters have WAY more personality. So they don't really need to be defined by an index number as opposed to how shallow Pokemon's monsters are.
@@DrCoeloCephalo [guy who's obsessed with yo kai watch after watching a video about pokemon voice] yeah but i wish it was yo kai watch :/
@@ebitachy Hey now, that's not really fair. Even if I disagree in this particular instance, there legitimately is quite a bit Pokemon could learn from the Yo-Kai Watch series despite the gulf in popularity, particularly the 3DS main series games, and more particularly Yo-kai Watch 3.
@@ebitachyWhere did I say that? Is there a problem with liking multiple monster collector RPGs or their game design any different from how Game Freak's Pokemon devs liked Dragon Quest and its monster collecting that came before Pokemon?
I dont think theres any problem with the national dex, but a huge amount of these suggestions, but I think this would be pretty simple to address by merely leaving national dex numbering intact as the one true ID to avoid confusion while turning this idea into a full fledged feature in a dex focused game like the legends series. Adding it as an entirely new feature that wouldn't just add a logical family order, perhaps with a rough grouping by egg group), but further including special sorts and internal IDs like egg groups, discovery order (as much as lore allows), primary typing order, etc. to the Pokedex is a computer inventory system, and the pokedex should have the power of one to present information, not on preset divisions.
Could easily add groupings by egg groups, sorts by usage rates, spawn rates, etc...
IE, make a separate guide for Pokemon like Bulbapedia far less needed and keep doing improvements like Go has done with some of what I've mentioned.
Awesome list! Would it be possible to share a document of this list, cause I always wanted to order my Pokémon this way as well, but bothered by a lot of inconsistencies that would still remain and it's a lot of effort. This is honestly the perfect dex in my opinion and would not change anything.
I ended up formatting it visually when I was making it cause it was easier to organise and re-arrange so I don't have a text version of the entire thing typed out, but I just put the full res image of the dex order that I used at the end of the video in the description!
@@CannedWolfMeat awesome man. Thanks for that!
Good call on keeping Paradoxes with Miraidon/Koraidon
Thank you! The numbering is really annoying, especially when new gens introduce new evolutions & pre-evolutions (along with regional variants).
Also, even if the games don't ever add 100% of the Pokemon again, any Pokemon they do add to the games should have an accompanying Pokedex entry!
I absolutely hate that they'll introduce new Pokemon in raids or DLC, yet the Pokedex will still say 400/400 or something, and I can't sort/search boxes for the newly added Pokemon either. If you put them in the game at ANY point, add them to the Pokedex dammit! 😅
Love this ! I share a lot of your thoughts
You should do a video in which you change the types of pokemons to a more accurate version - Trapinch bug ground, Vibrava bug dragon, Flygon bug dragon for example - keep up the good work 🇨🇵
I didn’t realize just how messed up the national dex was. Paldea especially needs to be taken out back. I’ve got a national dex myself, but honestly I may use this numbering system for myself
Nidoran M & F are closer to Meowstic in concept: one pokémon with different gender-related forms that also have different move sets. So this should have been a Gen VI correction, not a Gen IV one.
Great video!
@jgr7487 They might have been able to get away with it too in Gen 6, since they were already doing a big shake-up of previous pokemon by retconning fairy type into existence. Might have been their best shot at doing any other big revisions on the dex while making the jump to 3D.
I organize my Home's dex by the follow priority list.
National dex number, any forms that pokemon has, like gender or patterns and such, then any regional forms it has or other variants like a paradox. Lastly if has any out of order additions to it's family I pull them in and line them up as a family, so Pikachu line looks like Pichu, both Pikachu base variants, all the hats versions, then both Raichu variants, then Raichu's regional form.
Takes awhile to adjust when stuff gets added but I personally like to organize.
All they need to do is finally introduce Disturban to take Nidoran's spare spot.
Yes on Nidoran being consolidated. It is a major reason I think at some point there is going to need to be a massive re-update to stuff that have just been hokd overs from previous generations. Including to at least make Nidorina able to breed.
I think that things like regionals should receive sub numbers. Such that if Meowth kept its number, it would actually be number 52.1, with Alolan being 52.2 and Galarian being 52.3. The Persians would be 53.1 and 53.2 and Perrserker 54. Or perhaps letters for additions, although that might be for Pokemon with different forms that can change, like Rottom.
But then Gholdengo would no longer be number 1000
@MarshtompGames I think a gimmick being a national dex number is kind of dumb. Even so, for the single change you could move Archaldon to in front of Gholdengo.
Even so, at so,e point all the evolutions should be put together.
I'll still end up keeping them in regular nat dex order, purely because I don't want to move ~1000 pokemon each time a new evolution or form gets added to an old pokemon.
Have not watched more than a minute of the video, but wanna leave this comment before I watch so I can compare how many of our thoughts are the same.
I'm working on a fangame, and while I do have a setting in my dex that is the canon Nat Dex order, I *also* have a setting that I'm calling the "Family Dex". Which I've reordered in order to group things together that make sense to me.
1.) All the starters are at the beginning. This is all the grass starters in generational order, all the fire starters in generational order, then all the water starters in generational order. I immediately follow this with the Pikachu line and then the Eevee line. And then I add in the Pokémon that are in my game as additional starter options.
2.) Because Pikachu and its line are in the starter section, I follow the starter section with the *rest* of the electric rodents.
3.) At the very end of the list, I have the fossil mons, the Powerhouse Pokémon, Legendaries, Mythicals, and Ultra Beasts, in that order (the Cosmog line and Necrozma are at the end of the UB section because they're UB Legendaries).
4.) All the remaining mons are just in the middle, in roughly Nat Dex order, but adjustments are made in order to keep families together. This also includes things that are cross-generational counterparts, such as Magikarp and Feebas.
5.) Paradox mons are placed immediately after their base mon's family. This means, for example, that because Scream Tail is based on Jigglypuff, it is placed after Wigglytuff. This does mean, that there are two legendaries - Koraidon and Miraidon - just in the amorphous blob section because their base mon is a non-legendary.
6.) The two Nidorans are merged into one entry with sexual dimorphism a la Meowstic/Indeedee/Oinkologne, but their evolutions are not.
I do recognize that there are other archetypes that I can condense into their own sections (regional birds, regional Normal-type rodents, regional route 1 bugs, etc.) but I don't know how many of those are intentional on Game Freak's part, and how many instead just come about from a logical standpoint of "the first creatures you're gonna collect are bugs and rodents, and then you work your way to birds".
9:24 you talk about starters being rebranded as First Partner Pokémon (a change I do agree is stupid. Starter Pokémon is a brand.) But you seem to have missed that Pseudo-Legendaries are now called Powerhouse Pokémon (which I think makes sense. They *are* strong, by design, and it's better than labeling them as "not legendary".)
At first i thought it was Dumb having the Mythical be first in the Dex but now i have kinda grown to having them #1
Makes it feel like they have been there since the Region Started.
0001 Mew
0002 Bulbasaur
0003 Ivysaur
0004 Venusaur
Your count was spot-on for Gholdengo... Iiiiiif you count every regional as a new entry, which the games already don't, so idk, I'm not up for taking that list and renumbering them... Tonight...
Also fun fact the first 151 in this list makes it to Lickilicky, and that makes me irrationally angry lol
insanely good thumbnail
Hey king! Excellent video. Have you considered an autism diagnosis? Seriously though very enjoyable and thoroughly researched well done
Oh man this video was already good but then you started playing the Drawn to Life music?? Perfect
I have thought about the subject before, although mine was along the lines of an amalgamation, putting less emphasis on the regions. The idea is all starters evolution lines as of generation, before moving onto the Caterpie evolution lines.
All the fossil pokemon would be together, but I also think it could transition into pokemon of unclear to artificial origins. As there are some points that Pokemon revived from fossils might not be entirely accurate, some very clearly so. With then having the Pokemon like Porygon.
Lugia would be after the legendary birds, and Ho-oh after the beasts. The idea of tying pokemon groups that have a connection.
For my PTCG binders, I have a sort-of-improvised national dex order, where I keep the evolution families together, and finding things that just felt right to belong (such as certain gimmicks that affect evolution stages in the TCG, or alternate versions of mons like regionals, "convergent" mons, and paradox).
I'm VERY tempted to reorganize my HOME Living Dex and Shiny Dex like this...
I like most of the changes you have! For me personally I think with the Ultra Beasts, since they are from another dimension, that they technically dont belong to "our PokéUniverse" so I think all Ultra Beasts should be in their own Ultra Beast dex, so in organizing (lets say using Pokemon HOME as its our best way for organizating all generations of Mons at the moment), Id put them at the back of the dex, in a separate box, with an asterisk to indicate that these mons have been recorded and their existence is acknowledged, but we cannot consider them in our dex...
Another set of mons that I feel should get their own research dex is the paradox mons...a dex for Past Paradoxes all with asterisks ( with the notation that we are 99.9% sure that they are the predecessors for their mondern counterparts, "until further research)
And these same changes with Future Pokémon...however we cant state a 99% certainty with their existence...they are more like Ultra Beasts where we can recognize their existence, but because events can change the future we cant guarantee them in our PokéUniverse
ARE-SEE-US FOREVER!!!
While I would arrange the Dex a bit differently and not count regional forms as a separate entry, I've been wanting to see cross-regional evolution lines and similar legendaries/mythicals grouped together for some time
*shows footage of PL:A*
“First let’s move onto Kanto, which is of course, the original”
Just introduce a new Pokémon called "Indian Elephant", put it in the Kanto Dex, and the numbering issue will be fixed.
That's probably what they're gonna do if they ever make a game with all pokemon. A game after gen 10 that closes this chapter of the franchise. Sounds impossible, but a few years back an open world pokemon game sounded impossible too
i would have fixed the Gyarados & Dragonite sprights being wrong, but I don't know if that falls under this video's scope
lol first thing I was gonna say is Nidoran needs to be one Pokemon. I love this concept and I've thought about it a lot myself!
A concept as it is for this video, its fine. However, functionally, for Gamefreak, its a pain to do, as they have to keep multiple things into consideration.
First off, the concept of counterpart Pokemon is already making this kinda problematic.
For example
Ekans and Sandshrew lines are counterparts from gen 1 too 7, but lost the status in gen 7, when Sandshrew got its Alolan Form, while Ekans didn't. In gen 7, Sandshrew became counterparts with Vulpix, meaning in the National Dex, you need to put Vulpix and Sandshrew next to eachother in gen 7.
Another problem is cross-generation evolutions... as then you not only need to change the National dex, but also the regional dexes.
For example - as Pichu is the first in the line, you need to take Pikachu out of the Kanto Regional Dex, as its not first in line anymore and in order for the National Dex to make sense. It goes the other way around too... Johto loses Kingdra, Bellssom, Slowking, Politoed and Crobat... they need to be put in Kanto regional, as they are evolutions to a Kanto Pokemon.
Like, looking at Paldea, taking into account the National Dex, Dudunsparce, Farigiraf, , Kingambit, Annihilape, Dipplin/Hydrapple, Archaludon aren't gen 9 Pokemon, because they are placed amongst their evolutonariy relatives that came out generations earlier.
This is why Gamefreak does the National Dex the way they do, otherwise, it becomes a mess that doesn't makes sense dex wise.
Id like to have totally redone regional dexes sometime. Go through each game and completely overhaul pokemon distribution- Get a real index of every region's pokemon, including wierd cases like roamers and the pokemon that flooded into hoenn in oras post groudon/kyogre event.
I liked how you showcased the first partner pokemons
Is there an updated list of Pokemon with their new National Dex #s, not just sprites in order? This list is my new head canon, so I want to use it
The way you pronounce Arceus is the official pronunciation in Japan. Its only different in localised versions because they realised that it sounds like arse in English.
Hell yes, I've done this exact thought experiment before and agree with just about all of your reasons and conclusions - though I did go for some of the more subjective changes like Tauros/Miltank. Glad to see I'm not the only one with this particular brain worm.
It is funny how Carbink is just chilling with the Mythicals lol. Also, wouldn’t the Pokémon who are described or killing and eating prey also count for the confirmed kill count club?
I wrote the "The confirmed kill count club" part into the script based on a tweet I remembered seeing a while ago, although when I found it again while editing i realised it wasn't as good as I remembered (as it only listed the Kitakami legendaries + Koraidon and Miraidon).
While remaking it, I wanted to go with direct, first-hand examples from the games where a specific pokemon killed another person or pokemon, so not including stuff like dex entries alluding to Pokemon that kill people/prey or anything like that.
You learn that Guzzlord directly killed one of the Fallers that Looker worked with, Iron Tusk/Treads kill an explorer in Heath's first-hand recount of the Area Zero expedition, Koraidon/Miraidon kill the version-specific Professor, the Kitakami trio kill the masked foreigner (although Munkidori technically wasn't directly involved in it), and Ogerpon then killed killed the three of them.
@@CannedWolfMeat It is crazy how Iron Tusk and Iron Treads are in that camp of killing a person within the story. I am also pretty sure Darkrai killed a child in Gen 5, so I guess they would count too.
Pidgey and Pigeotto also killed a worm during their debut appearances in the anime, which I think is worth noting and I was wondering if that would include them with the in-lore kill count club?
what are your thoughts on future-proofing the dex by using a decimal system? For example: Bulbasaur is 1.1, ivysaur is 1.2, and so on. That allows you to add new forms without changing the entire pokedex numbers. For alternate forms you can even add another decimal. For example, a theoretical regional bulbasaur could be 1.1.1
I personally classify Meltan & Melmetal as a sorta Ultra Beast, but specifically the one native to our dimension since it shares the same inhuman-like designs as the other UBs, so essentially a Mythical Ultra Beast
Since gen 5, eggs from Volbeat or Illumise have a 50/50 chance of hatching into either one, and since Volbeat is 100% male and Illumise is 100% female this implies they are the same species by the same logic used to combine the Nidoran into a single entry
Lol, the image is gone
"We searched high and low, but we couldn’t find the page you're looking for. It may have been moved or deleted, or may never have existed at all." -Imgur
Someone pointed out the original image had a slight error on it so took that one down - check the description again and you should find a new link with the fixed version.
@@CannedWolfMeat Thanks! I am glad to see the National dex fixed, it really needed it, lol
Nice job!