I don't think I'm the only one who thought to himself "the god of the OT sure seems different from the god of Jesus" and lo and behold I discovered Marcion. This was many years ago and only now am I sitting down to listen and learn about this early branch. Thanks for the upload.
I always wondered how the God of the Old Testament (jealous, wrathful, vengeful, angry) could be the loving heavenly Father Jesus was talking about. 🤷♀️
Very good. For if "He" was the only God of whom would he be jealous plus Jesus knew where Nathaniel was. The Demiurge did not know where adam and Eve were
Those who win the wars write the books. Look at what the man believed. He most certainly was a rightly dividing bible believer and the early church apostatized fathers hated him for it. He might not have had everything figured out, but they completely smeared him
Tertullian Around the year 208 he urged the heretics to run over the apostolic churches, in which the very thrones of the apostles are still pre-eminent in their places, in which their own authentic writings (authenticae) are read, uttering the voice and representing the face of each of them severally. Achaia is very near you, (in which) you find Corinth. Since you are not far from Macedonia, you have Philippi; (and there too) you have the Thessalonians. Since you are able to cross to Asia, you get Ephesus. Since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority (of the apostles themselves).[20] Some have thought that Tertullian was claiming that Paul's Autographs were still being read in his day (208), but at the very least he must mean they were using faithful copies. Was anything else to be expected? For example, when the Ephesian Christians saw the Autograph of Paul's letter to them getting tattered, would they not carefully execute an identical copy for their continued use? Would they let the Autograph perish without making such a copy? (There must have been a constant stream of people coming either to make copies of their letter or to verify the correct reading.) I believe we are obliged to conclude that in the year 200 the Ephesian Church was still in a position to attest the original wording of her letter (and so for the others)-but this is coeval with P46, P66 and P75! Both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus claimed that the Church was spread throughout the whole earth, in their day-remember that Irenaeus, in 177, became bishop of Lyons, in Gaul, and he was not the first bishop in that area. Coupling this information with Justin's statement that the memoirs of the apostles were read each Sunday in the assemblies, it becomes clear that there must have been thousands of copies of the New Testament writings in use by 200 A.D. Each assembly would need a copy to read from, and there must have been private copies among those who could afford them. [20] Prescription against Heretics, 36, using Holmes' translation.
When I was first introduced to Marcion's conclusions regarding the differences between the Christian and Jewish gods, I thought duh! How is it that most everyone else ignored the contradictions? Then it occurred to me. People haven't really changed that much, have they?
@@ambrechristos8295 Les différences flagrantes sont-elles mentionnées entre les dieux de l'ancien et du nouveau testament ou celles entre les personnes qui vivaient il y a 2000 ans et les personnes modernes ?
@@ambrechristos8295 Merci d'avoir précisé. Le mal est difficile d'être sûr. Si tout est Dieu et que Dieu est tout, alors comment expliquer le mal ? C'est un sujet que j'ai longtemps considéré, mais je n'ai pas encore trouvé de réponse convaincante ou satisfaisante. Bien à vous.
@@ambrechristos8295 D'accord. Mais tout ne revient-il pas finalement à Dieu. Existe-t-il vraiment une chose telle que non-Dieu. Dieu n'est-il pas finalement en tout et partout ?
Le message de Marcion est précisément que tout n'est pas Dieu (majuscule), mais que cet univers a été créé par un dieu créateur (minuscule), et que le vrai Dieu est là-bas. La rédemption signifie trouver le chemin du retour vers ce vrai Dieu.
@@popsophia7522 This universe was created by the divine verb "Jesus"! and he was corrupted by evil, on the part of man (and his free will) and that of the demiurge, who became the god of this world! Why would the True God let a demiurge create creatures? impossible ! besides, that's why Christ came and offered himself as a sacrifice to free us, because we were captives of this world and its lord, of karma, of evil, of reincarnation and of hell!
I'm not a scholar, but I offer a few observations here about Marcion: His writings are ALL missing. We only know about him from the works of his enemies. One day his writings may be found, hidden away in the collections of the Vatican or one of the Orthodox Churches. Only then will there be a spotlight on what the early church Fathers actually did to extinguish Marcionism. I suspect there was more to what happened than his enemies are saying. His enemies were very strong in their denunciation of him. It was personal. Even unchristian like. It seems that they feared Marcion's influence with the Greek and Latin speaking believers. His views made a lot of sense, hence the need to go to the trouble of writing books against Marcionism. Someone decided there wasn't room for both Marcion and the establishment leaders. Marcion was a popular threat. He had to go. These are the early signs that institutional-ism and corruption had taken hold of the church 'leaders'. As Christians, we are naturally drawn to the New Testament. We tend to avoid reading the OT. We tolerate its harshness, its wars and genocides as we feel we have to because God did it and therefore it must not be questioned. We love to read about Jesus and the God of love. We love the concept of equality and the gospel of salvation of ALL people who place their faith in Jesus. I believe there is a reason why our spirits take joy in the message of the NT. We love the Son. But it is hard to love the Father God of the OT. Maybe the father God of the OT isn't Jesus' heavenly father at all. Maybe Marcion was right. Maybe the early church leaders of the 2nd century feared the church would not grow without keeping the Jews onside, so Marcion was a threat to their establishment.
@franciscafazzo3460 but water wouldn't kill the fish-like hybrids Here in south africa there's serpents in bodies water that we must avoid and let them take sheep and cattle if they wish just so that they leave us alone but no one knows what they really look like
There were also instances of the ot god telling even his "chosen" to kill each other. As well as the teachings of Jesus that it is evil to repay good with evil, or to repay evil with evil. Why couldn't he do his own dirtywork rather than corrupt the people he said were supposed to be holy and blameless?
Very interesting video. The more I study the more I seem to agree with Macrion and his views. I still have much to learn and only wish to serve God and Jesus to the best of my ability and also understanding.
Read Matthew 23:8-10 and listen to the LORD Jesus' Command - Ask The Father in confidence to teach you. I consider myself an Orthodox Pentecostal Jew. I got saved through the Redemption of The LORD Jesus (Yehoshua in Hebrew) and was born again of His Spirit as stated in Acts 1, with the evidence as provided in Acts, which was the speaking in other Tongues. As The WORD tells us we can never understand the things of the Spirit of GOD unless we have His Spirit - Read 1Corinthians 2:10-16. satan is out to destroy people through deception. marcion was deceived and a tool of satan even if he did not know it.
@@ketermalkut7653 Everyone is saved regardless of what ppl believe. If they don't believe now they will in the age to come. 1 Timothy 4:10 - The New International Version (NIV) 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
@@deeveevideos well then drop your bible and go eat, drink, and be merry. Also, get rid of your crap Egyptian dynamic so called bible and pick up a KJV
Why can't I do all of them? Why do I have to drop the Bible in order to do those other things? Jesus knew the truth and he still ate, drank and was Merry. God bless
Ver well presented lecture; I guess if there are so many rules and if you are out of the tribe or even face the death penalty if you break any one of them, that is a bit tough; is that what is meant by legalism? but really you can't be the leader of the Vegan society and be a member of the British Milk marketing Board, you would have to resign from one of them (this actually happened in the UK). Does unconditional love apply to a persistent offender? When does just exclusion from the social group count as a loving act towards others in the group? (maximizing the happiness of the greatest number?) Are relationships defined by a set of agreed behaviors,. or must i put up with my partner's behavior because we are supposedly in love?
There certainly is some schizophrenia and double standards going on, in my view. I've always disliked political correctness and the likes. Mainly by the sheer hypocrisy of it.
1 Timothy 4:10 - The New International Version (NIV) 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Thanks for the wonderful message! So true, Yhvh from the Old Testament is not God Most High, and is not the Father of Jesus. Yhvh was simply given permission by El ELYon(Deut 32:8), the Most High, to rule over Jacobs offspring/Israel (Deut 32:9) and later given permission to rule over all nations(Psalms 82:8). Thus Yhvh/Haelel/Enlil was basically given permission to be "the god of this world". Satan also confirmed in Luk 4:5-6 that worldly authority was given to him. Yhvh then deceived the nations into thinking that he himself is the Most High, the great I Am (Exodus 3:14). Which is obviously not true. During his rule Yhvh has been extremely violent oppose to Jesus that was gentle and mercyfull during his ministry. Jesus will take over and rule all nations(Rev 12:5). Yhvh is in fact a draconian: Rev 12:9, Exo 15:8, Deut 32:22, 2 Sam 22:16, Psalm 18:8-15, Numbers 11:01, John 8:44, etc. Pinions(feathers) are also discussed. Jesus came to rectify the works of the devil/Yhvh, He therefore repeatedly said to His followers: Moses said this ... But I say that ... Thus Jesus clearly distanced himself from Yhvh again and again - john 14:30. Also see youtube video: th-cam.com/video/t_nDUZP1E-w/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/XjQQ_3xJ2lg/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/v44vqo6hE1o/w-d-xo.html Luk 8:28 says Jesus is the Son of Most High (Luk 1:32, Mat 26:31-33), He is not the Son of Yhvh. The law given to man by Yhvh is a curse, and Jesus came to redeem man from the curse of Yhvh's law (Gal 3:13). For by the works of the law shall no man be justified(Gal 2:16). The letter kills, the spirit gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6). The power of sin comes from the law. (1 Cor 15). Jesus's new covenant replaces Yhvh's law and entire old covenant. (Heb 8:13). All things are lawful unto me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Cor 6:12). Yhvh has been seen face to face by many, eg. Moses, Abraham, etc. In the new testament Jesus said that NO-ONE has ever seen His Father. God is spirit - John 4:24 and is omni-present, Jhvh on the other hand is a physical draconian and can only be in one place at a time.
So I guess it doesn't appear that Marcion addressed both accounts of creation in Genesis? The first group being the natural man "chay", and the second being the spiritual man "enosh". It would really help to know what he thought, but maybe it's not all that important.
The trouble with Marcion is that almost all accounts of his ideas are from his ideological opponents like Tertullian in which they tried to refute his ideas. His own writings didn't survive - at least not that we know of.
Jesus the man was the "Son of God" ( the Demiurge ) Jesus the Christ was the "Son of Man" ( the Father ) Jesus the man was in line (lineage) to become the next "King" (Messiah) of Israel until he was "hijacked" by the Christ at His "baptism" in the Jordan . Jesus the Christ then went on to reject and overcome the "God of this world", His "religion" and His "world". Jesus the man was then punished with death by His God for disobedience. "My God, my God , why have you forsaken me " ( Mathew 27:46, Mark 15:34 ) BUT in so doing, Jesus the Christ paid the penalty (redemption) for ALL "humanity" and made a way of escape from this world's God and His "Law" of "KARMA" that keeps us here to suffer lifetime after lifetime through reincarnation of the body (flesh). In other words, the "works of the Devil were destroyed" ( 1 John 3 : 8 ).... by the life and death of the one man Jesus , who was the "Christ" ( Son of Man )
Perhaps this will be helpful. In that creation was called good, and yet it does not appear that it is good, we can consider that it was created good because good is working all things together to bring it too it's good conclusion. Thus, the grace of love with which it was created is at work in us, being the gift of God and whose image we are created, and of whom Jesus is the perfect image, who we will be like when we see him as he is, he who sees our Father. Love precedes and supercedes all things so that God may be all in all. Love is eternal, and from his love nothing can separate us. What of Free Will? Again, we are created in his image with these eternal senses and wills ie love, faith, hope, process, freedom, life. Although it may be that sin is at work in us, the effects of the world, it is also that grace is at work in us, and nothing can prevent the plan of God from its completion. Jesus prayed we be one on earth as in heaven, and he commanded prophetically that we shall love, and so we shall, freely, by our own nature which he has given us. He that was there at the beginning hovering over the depths, who could change water, who walked upon and commanded the sea to become calm, he who moves the hearts of kings like rivers, shall his command to love not be fulfilled by those who serve his purpose, which is love? He even says to the opposing spirit, you shall worship God and serve him only, because all things work together for good, especially for those who already love God and who already are called to his purpose. Creation is good because the design is working toward good, perfect love. This love, is at work in our hearts, as is the breath of life eternal. And so, we can consider that every mouth shall by its own heart and free will and by the Spirit profess unto the salvific healing of our Lord, through whom and to whom are all things unto our Father most high God.
Thank you so much for these videos Professor, I can't afford university here in Canada but I'm learning to use the internet properly to get access to quality stuff, like this! I was raised very traditionally Roman Catholic, one of my sisters is joining an order, but now I'd jokingly call myself an agnostic catholic absurdist. I have no doubt I'd be a TERRIFIC heretic if I was an educated man from this time, and in a way I am now, as well, a heretic, but I'm too entrenched into the institution, community and family structure of the Catholic world for breaking away to be anything good. So I'm staying close to the sacraments for the above reasons as well as a deep deep fear of eternal hell. I really hope these religious ideas get a renaissance though, we don't seem to want to look back so much, but maybe we missed something. There must have been SOMETHING so powerful about the idea of the Abrahamic God and then the Christ that is actually talking about real things, and we now need some way to truly rephrase it (that goes for all religions). I don't know, I'll continue to study and think about it, thanks again professor. Edit: I said "that goes for all religions" but I actually think if you're thinking this way you should have your center be the study of monotheism, and pagan religions understood in that context, whether it's a degeneration or a flowering out I'm not sure.
There is a comprehensive story that is not really told and has been persecuted in history concerning religious matters and the predicament of this world. Thanks for coming by.
@@popsophia7522 I'll try and seek it out. I don't want to bore you with my own esoteric babblings, but I think part of this comprehensive story is that we are Gods children, and are growing up.
Father god El Elyon left long ago and cursed the other gods, like Yahweh, to die a mortal death as punishment for their manipulations of humans. That is what the old testament says, anyway. If any of it is true, it is likely that El Elyon was the god of Marcionism.
The Savior, The lamb of God was sent to us for the sole purpose of... see Satan is ignorant not only is he ignorant but he is ignorant by choice. He scoffs when he is to be taught and then he walks away shaking his head. The biggest sin isn't pride it isn't murder. It's ignorance becuase if you don't know then you can't help.
It's weird because my intuition tells me that all of this is wrong. Everything we read and study is not what we're supposed to be doing. Someone asked about unconditional love. I thought that was pretty self explanatory. Love yourself and you will love everything, hate yourself and you cannot love. We don't find love thru hate and it starts with yourself. You can read books and study for years and not be any closer to the answers you seek because the answers you seek are within. We are gods...why do we not trust our own thoughts? We need books and passages from old men to tell us how to live? No, not I.
Spot on smoking stylist, even Christ himself explains this about unconditional love. "Unless we become as little infants, we cannot inter the kingdom of God".
I think this "we are gods" notion is at best an inflated postmodern/new age notion of a more original idea that tells we do have a spark of the divine within and there most certainly is a Divinity high above.
@@popsophia7522 you can label however you want that best fits your life and how you see things, I don't consider it inflated, but if that makes you feel better, call it what you will. It matters not to me, words are words. You don't even know the origins of what you speak, nor do I. I think your comment is wholly unnecessary, but thank you for contributing to the conversation.
@@the_smokin_stylist7628 If my comment here is unnecessary, your own comment under my video here must be unnecessary as well. I think your shallow comment here above deserved a bit of a reality check. Have a nice day.
@@popsophia7522 I'm not sure what your intended goal was here, but in no way did your comment give me any type of "reality" check. You're showing the same rhetoric I've heard from religious zealots since the conception of the idea that if we are of God, then we have the potential to be God, and the same reply is heard; well the heart was made by you but it doesn't mean it can become you. My reply would be, does your heart have consciousness? Does the heart perceive that it was created? I find your scope of reality limited and would venture to guess that you've not really ever had an original thought of your own.
Why do you preamble your podcasts with so much non related fluff. Get to it alredy. You dont need to tell me what i need to listen to first. Just state your info and move on- geez
Imagine a hell were you dont know is hell... Sounds like hell eh? Always worried always in pain... Thats us sorrounded by zombie's... Sounds like were in hell...
THUMBS DOWN I had to click out because you were continually spitting as you spoke. Please re-record this video it is the only video I have found so far that does not speak against Marcion and your points are important. Let me know when you have re-recorded this video so I can listen to the current one to see if I can use it as a referral video. I am an author who promotes Marcion.
@@angellicagoodson-lord7820 I have just known Gnostic and Marcion about 2 months ago. Since then, some of my suspects about this evil world and evil creator have been answered. However, I don't know why the Most powerful God allow the evil god continue biding, cheating and tormenting human. Also, I want to know about the meaning of the death of Jesus, why was he willing to die ? to redeem us from sin or to break the law of Jehovah ? Whether all human will be saved or just some of us will be saved ? Before I continue to study deeply about Marcion's theory, can you tell me what I should do to be saved and can you introduce me a church ? I'm very lonely in my way and I pray to the Most High God for asking the truth everyday but I'm not sure if he listen to me. I think you are doing a great mission of preaching the truth. God bless you.
What has come to be mainstream Christendom very much has relied on blind belief and intimidation. Which includes all the denominations that has spawned from it - they can't agree, but often still do agree on the blind belief and intimidation part of it. But, the early Christian movement was quite obviously a far richer world and much more diverse than generally imagined.
@@popsophia7522 Any richness came from venturing outside Christianity itself, there just isn't that much insight in the bible... by killing everything else they were just left with a crap book.
The Supremacy of JESUS The Supremacy of JESUS John 1 14 And the Word was made flesh, [JESUS] and dwelt among us, [IMMANUEL] (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1 1 In the 🔔beginning was the Word, [JESUS] and the Word [JESUS] was with God, and the Word [JESUS] was God. 2 The same was in the 🔔🔔beginning with God [JESUS]. John 8 38 I speak that which ➡️I have seen⬅️ ➡️with my Father:🔔 and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Genesis 1 26 And God [OUR FATHER JESUS] said, ➡️Let us 🔔🔔 make man in our image,🔔 ➡️after our likeness:🔔 ➡️and let them🔔 [Men and Women] have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. John 1 3 All things were made by him [JESUS]; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Colossians 1 15 [JESUS] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him [JESUS] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him [JESUS]: 17 And he [JESUS] is before all things, and by him [JESUS] all things consist. 18 And he [JESUS] is the head of the body, the church: who is 🔔the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;🔔 that in all things he [JESUS] might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father [JESUS]🔔 that in him [JESUS IMMANUEL]🔔 should all fulness dwell;🔔🔔 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his [JESUS] cross, by him [JESUS] to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [JESUS] I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Genesis 1 1 In the 🔔beginning God [JESUS] created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and obscurity was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God [JESUS] moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God [JESUS] said, Let there be light: and there was light. [TIME BEGINS] 4 And God [JESUS] saw the light, that it was good:🔔 and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. [DUALITY BEGINS] And the evening and the morning were the first day. John 8 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. ➡️John 1 4 In him [JESUS] was life; and the life 🔔 ➡️was the light of men.🔔 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it [JESUS] not. 1 John 1 1 That which was from 🔔the beginning, which we have heard, [AUDIBLY] which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, [VISUALLY] and our hands have handled, [TOUCHED] of the Word of life; [JESUS] 2 (For the life was manifested, [IMMANUEL God with us] and we have seen it [JESUS], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life,🔔[JESUS] which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: ➡️and truly our fellowship is with the Father,🔔🔔 ➡️and with his Son Jesus Christ.🔔 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, [JESUS]and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him [JESUS] is no darkness at all. Peace be with you
Perhaps this will be helpful. In that creation was called good, and yet it does not appear that it is good, we can consider that it was created good because good is working all things together to bring it too it's good conclusion. Thus, the grace of love with which it was created is at work in us, being the gift of God and whose image we are created, and of whom Jesus is the perfect image, who we will be like when we see him as he is, he who sees our Father. Love precedes and supercedes all things so that God may be all in all. Love is eternal, and from his love nothing can separate us. What of Free Will? Again, we are created in his image with these eternal senses and wills ie love, faith, hope, process, freedom, life. Although it may be that sin is at work in us, the effects of the world, it is also that grace is at work in us, and nothing can prevent the plan of God from its completion. Jesus prayed we be one on earth as in heaven, and he commanded prophetically that we shall love, and so we shall, freely, by our own nature which he has given us. He that was there at the beginning hovering over the depths, who could change water, who walked upon and commanded the sea to become calm, he who moves the hearts of kings like rivers, shall his command to love not be fulfilled by those who serve his purpose, which is love? He even says to the opposing spirit, you shall worship God and serve him only, because all things work together for good, especially for those who already love God and who already are called to his purpose. Creation is good because the design is working toward good, perfect love. This love, is at work in our hearts, as is the breath of life eternal. And so, we can consider that every mouth shall by its own heart and free will and by the Spirit profess unto the salvific healing of our Lord, through whom and to whom are all things unto our Father most high God.
I don't think I'm the only one who thought to himself "the god of the OT sure seems different from the god of Jesus" and lo and behold I discovered Marcion. This was many years ago and only now am I sitting down to listen and learn about this early branch. Thanks for the upload.
IM WITH YIOU ON THAT
I always wondered how the God of the Old Testament (jealous, wrathful, vengeful, angry) could be the loving heavenly Father Jesus was talking about. 🤷♀️
Very good. For if "He" was the only God of whom would he be jealous plus Jesus knew where Nathaniel was. The Demiurge did not know where adam and Eve were
Fb beginners in christ. There's a tree as it's cover. Join amd find out more, but stay subscribed to this channel for more updates as well.
YES!!! Same here! Later in life I came across Gnosticism and Marcionism. They both taught that the god of the OT was different from the God of Christ.
Those who win the wars write the books. Look at what the man believed. He most certainly was a rightly dividing bible believer and the early church apostatized fathers hated him for it. He might not have had everything figured out, but they completely smeared him
Tertullian
Around the year 208 he urged the heretics to
run over the apostolic churches, in which the very thrones of the apostles are still pre-eminent in their places, in which their own authentic writings (authenticae) are read, uttering the voice and representing the face of each of them severally. Achaia is very near you, (in which) you find Corinth. Since you are not far from Macedonia, you have Philippi; (and there too) you have the Thessalonians. Since you are able to cross to Asia, you get Ephesus. Since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority (of the apostles themselves).[20]
Some have thought that Tertullian was claiming that Paul's Autographs were still being read in his day (208), but at the very least he must mean they were using faithful copies. Was anything else to be expected? For example, when the Ephesian Christians saw the Autograph of Paul's letter to them getting tattered, would they not carefully execute an identical copy for their continued use? Would they let the Autograph perish without making such a copy? (There must have been a constant stream of people coming either to make copies of their letter or to verify the correct reading.) I believe we are obliged to conclude that in the year 200 the Ephesian Church was still in a position to attest the original wording of her letter (and so for the others)-but this is coeval with P46, P66 and P75!
Both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus claimed that the Church was spread throughout the whole earth, in their day-remember that Irenaeus, in 177, became bishop of Lyons, in Gaul, and he was not the first bishop in that area. Coupling this information with Justin's statement that the memoirs of the apostles were read each Sunday in the assemblies, it becomes clear that there must have been thousands of copies of the New Testament writings in use by 200 A.D. Each assembly would need a copy to read from, and there must have been private copies among those who could afford them. [20] Prescription against Heretics, 36, using Holmes' translation.
When I was first introduced to Marcion's conclusions regarding the differences between the Christian and Jewish gods, I thought duh! How is it that most everyone else ignored the contradictions? Then it occurred to me. People haven't really changed that much, have they?
@@ambrechristos8295
Les différences flagrantes sont-elles mentionnées entre les dieux de l'ancien et du nouveau testament ou celles entre les personnes qui vivaient il y a 2000 ans et les personnes modernes ?
@@ambrechristos8295 Merci d'avoir précisé. Le mal est difficile d'être sûr. Si tout est Dieu et que Dieu est tout, alors comment expliquer le mal ? C'est un sujet que j'ai longtemps considéré, mais je n'ai pas encore trouvé de réponse convaincante ou satisfaisante. Bien à vous.
@@ambrechristos8295 D'accord. Mais tout ne revient-il pas finalement à Dieu. Existe-t-il vraiment une chose telle que non-Dieu. Dieu n'est-il pas finalement en tout et partout ?
Le message de Marcion est précisément que tout n'est pas Dieu (majuscule), mais que cet univers a été créé par un dieu créateur (minuscule), et que le vrai Dieu est là-bas. La rédemption signifie trouver le chemin du retour vers ce vrai Dieu.
@@popsophia7522 This universe was created by the divine verb "Jesus"! and he was corrupted by evil, on the part of man (and his free will) and that of the demiurge, who became the god of this world! Why would the True God let a demiurge create creatures? impossible ! besides, that's why Christ came and offered himself as a sacrifice to free us, because we were captives of this world and its lord, of karma, of evil, of reincarnation and of hell!
marcion... the father of the new testament canon
and the most important historical figure in early christianity that we have never heard of
keep on going please, there is little to no material whatsoever regarding early christian sects. Im Argentinian btw, this is much appreciated
Marcion and Diogenes the Cynic were both from Sinope. The Judaizers hated on Marcion.
I'm not a scholar, but I offer a few observations here about Marcion:
His writings are ALL missing. We only know about him from the works of his enemies. One day his writings may be found, hidden away in the collections of the Vatican or one of the Orthodox Churches. Only then will there be a spotlight on what the early church Fathers actually did to extinguish Marcionism. I suspect there was more to what happened than his enemies are saying.
His enemies were very strong in their denunciation of him. It was personal. Even unchristian like. It seems that they feared Marcion's influence with the Greek and Latin speaking believers. His views made a lot of sense, hence the need to go to the trouble of writing books against Marcionism. Someone decided there wasn't room for both Marcion and the establishment leaders. Marcion was a popular threat. He had to go. These are the early signs that institutional-ism and corruption had taken hold of the church 'leaders'.
As Christians, we are naturally drawn to the New Testament. We tend to avoid reading the OT. We tolerate its harshness, its wars and genocides as we feel we have to because God did it and therefore it must not be questioned. We love to read about Jesus and the God of love. We love the concept of equality and the gospel of salvation of ALL people who place their faith in Jesus. I believe there is a reason why our spirits take joy in the message of the NT. We love the Son. But it is hard to love the Father God of the OT. Maybe the father God of the OT isn't Jesus' heavenly father at all. Maybe Marcion was right. Maybe the early church leaders of the 2nd century feared the church would not grow without keeping the Jews onside, so Marcion was a threat to their establishment.
Crazy to know St Jerome inspired the Catholic Church aka Vatican to hold those secrets from the world. To translate the Latin Vulgate smh
the destruction was against the fallen sons of God. or the hybrid offspring. hence the flood and the killing of the offspring of fallen angels.
@franciscafazzo3460 but water wouldn't kill the fish-like hybrids
Here in south africa there's serpents in bodies water that we must avoid and let them take sheep and cattle if they wish just so that they leave us alone but no one knows what they really look like
There were also instances of the ot god telling even his "chosen" to kill each other. As well as the teachings of Jesus that it is evil to repay good with evil, or to repay evil with evil. Why couldn't he do his own dirtywork rather than corrupt the people he said were supposed to be holy and blameless?
Very interesting video. The more I study the more I seem to agree with Macrion and his views. I still have much to learn and only wish to serve God and Jesus to the best of my ability and also understanding.
Read Matthew 23:8-10 and listen to the LORD Jesus' Command - Ask The Father in confidence to teach you.
I consider myself an Orthodox Pentecostal Jew. I got saved through the Redemption of The LORD Jesus (Yehoshua in Hebrew) and was born again of His Spirit as stated in Acts 1, with the evidence as provided in Acts, which was the speaking in other Tongues. As The WORD tells us we can never understand the things of the Spirit of GOD unless we have His Spirit - Read 1Corinthians 2:10-16. satan is out to destroy people through deception. marcion was deceived and a tool of satan even if he did not know it.
@@ketermalkut7653
Everyone is saved regardless of what ppl believe. If they don't believe now they will in the age to come.
1 Timothy 4:10 - The New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
@@deeveevideos well then drop your bible and go eat, drink, and be merry. Also, get rid of your crap Egyptian dynamic so called bible and pick up a KJV
Why can't I do all of them? Why do I have to drop the Bible in order to do those other things? Jesus knew the truth and he still ate, drank and was Merry. God bless
@@deeveevideos you obviously don't understand the context of what I'm saying
Excellent job !! Thankyou
15:27 Marcion's world-view.
Ver well presented lecture; I guess if there are so many rules and if you are out of the tribe or even face the death penalty if you break any one of them, that is a bit tough; is that what is meant by legalism?
but really you can't be the leader of the Vegan society and be a member of the British Milk marketing Board, you would have to resign from one of them (this actually happened in the UK).
Does unconditional love apply to a persistent offender? When does just exclusion from the social group count as a loving act towards others in the group? (maximizing the happiness of the greatest number?)
Are relationships defined by a set of agreed behaviors,. or must i put up with my partner's behavior because we are supposedly in love?
There certainly is some schizophrenia and double standards going on, in my view. I've always disliked political correctness and the likes. Mainly by the sheer hypocrisy of it.
1 Timothy 4:10 - The New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Thanks for the wonderful message! So true, Yhvh from the Old Testament is not God Most High, and is not the Father of Jesus. Yhvh was simply given permission by El ELYon(Deut 32:8), the Most High, to rule over Jacobs offspring/Israel (Deut 32:9) and later given permission to rule over all nations(Psalms 82:8). Thus Yhvh/Haelel/Enlil was basically given permission to be "the god of this world". Satan also confirmed in Luk 4:5-6 that worldly authority was given to him. Yhvh then deceived the nations into thinking that he himself is the Most High, the great I Am (Exodus 3:14). Which is obviously not true. During his rule Yhvh has been extremely violent oppose to Jesus that was gentle and mercyfull during his ministry. Jesus will take over and rule all nations(Rev 12:5).
Yhvh is in fact a draconian: Rev 12:9, Exo 15:8, Deut 32:22, 2 Sam 22:16, Psalm 18:8-15, Numbers 11:01, John 8:44, etc. Pinions(feathers) are also discussed.
Jesus came to rectify the works of the devil/Yhvh, He therefore repeatedly said to His followers: Moses said this ... But I say that ... Thus Jesus clearly distanced himself from Yhvh again and again - john 14:30.
Also see youtube video: th-cam.com/video/t_nDUZP1E-w/w-d-xo.html
and th-cam.com/video/XjQQ_3xJ2lg/w-d-xo.html
and th-cam.com/video/v44vqo6hE1o/w-d-xo.html
Luk 8:28 says Jesus is the Son of Most High (Luk 1:32, Mat 26:31-33), He is not the Son of Yhvh.
The law given to man by Yhvh is a curse, and Jesus came to redeem man from the curse of Yhvh's law (Gal 3:13). For by the works of the law shall no man be justified(Gal 2:16). The letter kills, the spirit gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6). The power of sin comes from the law. (1 Cor 15). Jesus's new covenant replaces Yhvh's law and entire old covenant. (Heb 8:13). All things are lawful unto me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Cor 6:12).
Yhvh has been seen face to face by many, eg. Moses, Abraham, etc. In the new testament Jesus said that NO-ONE has ever seen His Father. God is spirit - John 4:24 and is omni-present, Jhvh on the other hand is a physical draconian and can only be in one place at a time.
agreed
YHVH is Satan,.
It's the god of the Hebrew bibble that created the covenant world. It's not the whole wide world. The unknown God created the whole wide world.
Were is the unknown God ? Jesus ?
So I guess it doesn't appear that Marcion addressed both accounts of creation in Genesis? The first group being the natural man "chay", and the second being the spiritual man "enosh". It would really help to know what he thought, but maybe it's not all that important.
The trouble with Marcion is that almost all accounts of his ideas are from his ideological opponents like Tertullian in which they tried to refute his ideas. His own writings didn't survive - at least not that we know of.
@@popsophia7522 Thank you, and I'm just now finding this response. Do you know of any Gnostic texts that address the two accounts of creation?
he created the first new trestanent the romans catholics hated him
Jesus the man was the "Son of God" ( the Demiurge )
Jesus the Christ was the "Son of Man" ( the Father )
Jesus the man was in line (lineage) to become the next "King" (Messiah) of Israel
until he was "hijacked" by the Christ at His "baptism" in the Jordan .
Jesus the Christ then went on to reject and overcome the "God of this world",
His "religion" and His "world".
Jesus the man was then punished with death by His God for disobedience.
"My God, my God , why have you forsaken me " ( Mathew 27:46, Mark 15:34 )
BUT in so doing, Jesus the Christ paid the penalty (redemption) for ALL "humanity"
and made a way of escape from this world's God and His "Law" of "KARMA" that keeps
us here to suffer lifetime after lifetime through reincarnation of the body (flesh).
In other words, the "works of the Devil were destroyed" ( 1 John 3 : 8 )....
by the life and death of the one man Jesus , who was the "Christ" ( Son of Man )
Amen
Excellent post
Are we all saved !
@@Lichtschwert ..." each in his own order"
@@TheWhyIsThatSo ???
What a good video 😄📸
Perhaps this will be helpful.
In that creation was called good, and yet it does not appear that it is good, we can consider that it was created good because good is working all things together to bring it too it's good conclusion. Thus, the grace of love with which it was created is at work in us, being the gift of God and whose image we are created, and of whom Jesus is the perfect image, who we will be like when we see him as he is, he who sees our Father. Love precedes and supercedes all things so that God may be all in all. Love is eternal, and from his love nothing can separate us.
What of Free Will? Again, we are created in his image with these eternal senses and wills ie love, faith, hope, process, freedom, life.
Although it may be that sin is at work in us, the effects of the world, it is also that grace is at work in us, and nothing can prevent the plan of God from its completion.
Jesus prayed we be one on earth as in heaven, and he commanded prophetically that we shall love, and so we shall, freely, by our own nature which he has given us.
He that was there at the beginning hovering over the depths, who could change water, who walked upon and commanded the sea to become calm, he who moves the hearts of kings like rivers, shall his command to love not be fulfilled by those who serve his purpose, which is love? He even says to the opposing spirit, you shall worship God and serve him only, because all things work together for good, especially for those who already love God and who already are called to his purpose.
Creation is good because the design is working toward good, perfect love. This love, is at work in our hearts, as is the breath of life eternal.
And so, we can consider that every mouth shall by its own heart and free will and by the Spirit profess unto the salvific healing of our Lord, through whom and to whom are all things unto our Father most high God.
Your suggestion here is an example of what the human mind does - it twists authentic religious ideas to its own predilections and problems.
Thank you so much for these videos Professor, I can't afford university here in Canada but I'm learning to use the internet properly to get access to quality stuff, like this!
I was raised very traditionally Roman Catholic, one of my sisters is joining an order, but now I'd jokingly call myself an agnostic catholic absurdist. I have no doubt I'd be a TERRIFIC heretic if I was an educated man from this time, and in a way I am now, as well, a heretic, but I'm too entrenched into the institution, community and family structure of the Catholic world for breaking away to be anything good. So I'm staying close to the sacraments for the above reasons as well as a deep deep fear of eternal hell.
I really hope these religious ideas get a renaissance though, we don't seem to want to look back so much, but maybe we missed something. There must have been SOMETHING so powerful about the idea of the Abrahamic God and then the Christ that is actually talking about real things, and we now need some way to truly rephrase it (that goes for all religions).
I don't know, I'll continue to study and think about it, thanks again professor.
Edit: I said "that goes for all religions" but I actually think if you're thinking this way you should have your center be the study of monotheism, and pagan religions understood in that context, whether it's a degeneration or a flowering out I'm not sure.
There is a comprehensive story that is not really told and has been persecuted in history concerning religious matters and the predicament of this world.
Thanks for coming by.
@@popsophia7522 I'll try and seek it out. I don't want to bore you with my own esoteric babblings, but I think part of this comprehensive story is that we are Gods children, and are growing up.
~thanks..............
Father god El Elyon left long ago and cursed the other gods, like Yahweh, to die a mortal death as punishment for their manipulations of humans. That is what the old testament says, anyway.
If any of it is true, it is likely that El Elyon was the god of Marcionism.
mr. harland, how can you talk of 'jewish bible'?!
Yahweh.
But Jesus referred to the prophets
Valentinus said that the Hebrew Bible is partly authentic information from the true God, and partly corrupted in favor of the bad creator god.
@@popsophia7522 I also agree
The Savior, The lamb of God was sent to us for the sole purpose of... see Satan is ignorant not only is he ignorant but he is ignorant by choice.
He scoffs when he is to be taught and then he walks away shaking his head.
The biggest sin isn't pride it isn't murder. It's ignorance becuase if you don't know then you can't help.
It's weird because my intuition tells me that all of this is wrong. Everything we read and study is not what we're supposed to be doing. Someone asked about unconditional love. I thought that was pretty self explanatory. Love yourself and you will love everything, hate yourself and you cannot love. We don't find love thru hate and it starts with yourself. You can read books and study for years and not be any closer to the answers you seek because the answers you seek are within. We are gods...why do we not trust our own thoughts? We need books and passages from old men to tell us how to live? No, not I.
Spot on smoking stylist, even Christ himself explains this about unconditional love.
"Unless we become as little infants, we cannot inter the kingdom of God".
I think this "we are gods" notion is at best an inflated postmodern/new age notion of a more original idea that tells we do have a spark of the divine within and there most certainly is a Divinity high above.
@@popsophia7522 you can label however you want that best fits your life and how you see things, I don't consider it inflated, but if that makes you feel better, call it what you will. It matters not to me, words are words. You don't even know the origins of what you speak, nor do I. I think your comment is wholly unnecessary, but thank you for contributing to the conversation.
@@the_smokin_stylist7628 If my comment here is unnecessary, your own comment under my video here must be unnecessary as well. I think your shallow comment here above deserved a bit of a reality check. Have a nice day.
@@popsophia7522 I'm not sure what your intended goal was here, but in no way did your comment give me any type of "reality" check. You're showing the same rhetoric I've heard from religious zealots since the conception of the idea that if we are of God, then we have the potential to be God, and the same reply is heard; well the heart was made by you but it doesn't mean it can become you. My reply would be, does your heart have consciousness? Does the heart perceive that it was created? I find your scope of reality limited and would venture to guess that you've not really ever had an original thought of your own.
Why do you preamble your podcasts with so much non related fluff. Get to it alredy. You dont need to tell me what i need to listen to first. Just state your info and move on- geez
Imagine a hell were you dont know is hell... Sounds like hell eh? Always worried always in pain... Thats us sorrounded by zombie's... Sounds like were in hell...
Time to call Christianity what it really is. Taking advantage of the ignorant for centuries.
Wow, hot take
Another 190 IQ atheist
THUMBS DOWN I had to click out because you were continually spitting as you spoke. Please re-record this video it is the only video I have found so far that does not speak against Marcion and your points are important. Let me know when you have re-recorded this video so I can listen to the current one to see if I can use it as a referral video. I am an author who promotes Marcion.
If you are an author who promotes Marcion, please send me something to read. I'm seeking the truth and now I'm interested in Marcion theory.
@@haidang1772 Do you have an Email address Hai Dang that I can send an article to?
@@angellicagoodson-lord7820 haidangprof@gmail.com
@@haidang1772 It's on the way to you now. Be sure to click into the pdf at the bottom so that you can see the pictures.
@@angellicagoodson-lord7820 I have just known Gnostic and Marcion about 2 months ago. Since then, some of my suspects about this evil world and evil creator have been answered. However, I don't know why the Most powerful God allow the evil god continue biding, cheating and tormenting human. Also, I want to know about the meaning of the death of Jesus, why was he willing to die ? to redeem us from sin or to break the law of Jehovah ? Whether all human will be saved or just some of us will be saved ? Before I continue to study deeply about Marcion's theory, can you tell me what I should do to be saved and can you introduce me a church ? I'm very lonely in my way and I pray to the Most High God for asking the truth everyday but I'm not sure if he listen to me.
I think you are doing a great mission of preaching the truth. God bless you.
Marcian obviously hasn’t read the old testament
It's fun how every Christian argument is a series of ad hominem and strawman attacks rather than genuine insight.
What has come to be mainstream Christendom very much has relied on blind belief and intimidation. Which includes all the denominations that has spawned from it - they can't agree, but often still do agree on the blind belief and intimidation part of it.
But, the early Christian movement was quite obviously a far richer world and much more diverse than generally imagined.
@@popsophia7522 Any richness came from venturing outside Christianity itself, there just isn't that much insight in the bible... by killing everything else they were just left with a crap book.
What about Marcion's anti-Semitism?
The Supremacy of JESUS
The Supremacy of JESUS
John 1 14 And the Word was made flesh, [JESUS]
and dwelt among us, [IMMANUEL]
(and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten
of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1 1 In the
🔔beginning
was the Word, [JESUS]
and the Word [JESUS] was with God, and the Word
[JESUS] was God.
2 The same was in the
🔔🔔beginning with God [JESUS].
John 8 38 I speak that which
➡️I have seen⬅️
➡️with my Father:🔔
and ye do that which ye have
seen with your father.
Genesis 1 26 And God
[OUR FATHER JESUS] said,
➡️Let us 🔔🔔
make man in our image,🔔
➡️after our likeness:🔔
➡️and let them🔔
[Men and Women]
have dominion
over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing
that creepeth upon the earth.
John 1 3 All things
were made
by him [JESUS];
and without him was not
any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1 15 [JESUS] Who is
the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him [JESUS] were
all things created,
that are in heaven,
and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones,
or dominions,
or principalities,
or powers:
all things were created
by him, and for him [JESUS]:
17 And he [JESUS] is before all things,
and by him [JESUS] all things consist.
18 And he [JESUS] is the head
of the body,
the church:
who is 🔔the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead;🔔
that in all things he [JESUS]
might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased
the Father [JESUS]🔔
that in him [JESUS IMMANUEL]🔔
should all fulness dwell;🔔🔔
20 And, having made peace
through the blood
of his [JESUS] cross,
by him [JESUS] to reconcile
all things unto himself;
by him, [JESUS] I say,
whether they be things in earth,
or things in heaven.
Genesis 1 1 In the
🔔beginning God [JESUS]
created the heaven
and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and obscurity was upon
the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God [JESUS]
moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God [JESUS] said,
Let there be light:
and there was light.
[TIME BEGINS]
4 And God [JESUS]
saw the light,
that it was good:🔔
and God divided the light
from the darkness.
5 And God called
the light Day,
and the darkness
he called Night.
[DUALITY BEGINS]
And the evening
and the morning
were the first day.
John 8 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying,
I am the light of the world:
he that followeth me
shall not walk in darkness,
but shall have
the light of life.
➡️John 1 4 In him [JESUS]
was life;
and the life 🔔
➡️was the light of men.🔔
5 And the light shineth in darkness;
and the darkness
comprehended it [JESUS] not.
1 John 1 1 That which was from
🔔the beginning,
which we have heard, [AUDIBLY]
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, [VISUALLY]
and our hands have handled,
[TOUCHED]
of the Word of life; [JESUS]
2 (For the life was manifested,
[IMMANUEL God with us]
and we have seen it [JESUS],
and bear witness,
and shew unto you
that eternal life,🔔[JESUS]
which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have
seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have
fellowship with us:
➡️and truly our fellowship
is with the Father,🔔🔔
➡️and with his Son Jesus Christ.🔔
4 And these things write
we unto you,
that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message
which we have heard of him,
[JESUS]and declare unto you,
that God is light,
and in him [JESUS]
is no darkness at all.
Peace be with you
Perhaps this will be helpful.
In that creation was called good, and yet it does not appear that it is good, we can consider that it was created good because good is working all things together to bring it too it's good conclusion. Thus, the grace of love with which it was created is at work in us, being the gift of God and whose image we are created, and of whom Jesus is the perfect image, who we will be like when we see him as he is, he who sees our Father. Love precedes and supercedes all things so that God may be all in all. Love is eternal, and from his love nothing can separate us.
What of Free Will? Again, we are created in his image with these eternal senses and wills ie love, faith, hope, process, freedom, life.
Although it may be that sin is at work in us, the effects of the world, it is also that grace is at work in us, and nothing can prevent the plan of God from its completion.
Jesus prayed we be one on earth as in heaven, and he commanded prophetically that we shall love, and so we shall, freely, by our own nature which he has given us.
He that was there at the beginning hovering over the depths, who could change water, who walked upon and commanded the sea to become calm, he who moves the hearts of kings like rivers, shall his command to love not be fulfilled by those who serve his purpose, which is love? He even says to the opposing spirit, you shall worship God and serve him only, because all things work together for good, especially for those who already love God and who already are called to his purpose.
Creation is good because the design is working toward good, perfect love. This love, is at work in our hearts, as is the breath of life eternal.
And so, we can consider that every mouth shall by its own heart and free will and by the Spirit profess unto the salvific healing of our Lord, through whom and to whom are all things unto our Father most high God.