The Life, Times and Truth about the Founder of the SAS: An Interview with Gavin Mortimer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- Military History Quarterly editor, Zita Ballinger Fletcher interviews Gavin Mortimer on his book, "David Stirling: The Phoney Major: The Life, Times and Truth about the Founder of the SAS"
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At the beginning of my working life I was a barber and was lucky to have among my customers many WW2 veterans one of which was a war time SAS soldier. I heard many first hand accounts of the war all of which will never appear in any book from these veterans. The SAS soldier spent his war with one other SAS soldier in Yugoslavia working with partisans destroying German communications . He knew Paddy Mayne and I remember him saying that Paddy Mayne hated foul language and anybody that knew him would not swear in his presence. This is at complete odds with the BBC drama which has Paddy swearing like a 'trooper'. Sad to think that all those veterans have likely passed away by now.
My uncle Terry never swore was also early sas, records don’t say this though and only start in 47 when he actually rejoined. The search continues….
I think that is the least concerning bit.. a soldiers swearing is properly the most realistic thing in the world...And what a soldiers likes at home isn't what he likes in battle. But Paddy Mayne is show as a rebel, which he properly was, but he's also shown as a extreme loose cannon and borderlining psycho, which considering the SAS success in italy later in the war properly wasn't the case.
Mayne was a well educated and a brilliant sportsman so gave him the ability as a leader and put himself in front line danger which gave this man a duty to his men and to the sas.
Very interesting view of the SAS history and the personalities involved. I've read Ben MacIntyre's book and I tend to believe that Stirling was a bit 'puffed up' in the history of SAS vs. what actually happened. No doubt his social contacts in the military helped SAS get started, but Paddy Mayne was the soul of the SAS. That Paddy Mayne did not receive a Victoria Cross is a crime.
From what I understand Stirling invented the Sas and Maybe proved it could work and although Stirling was no we’re ner as good of fighters as paddy doesn’t mean he was a bad fighter or leader Jock Louis was also just as important to the sas as he built it’s mine set and strategy.
The VC is a very rare decoration, especially for one of the rank that Mayne was at the time. Mayne got the DSO.
As for Stirling his post war career was incredibly impressive. (see Adam Curtis the Mayfair Set) It is true Stirling was an embellisher but he was a very effective one, and did business at the highest levels.
What you think you know about Maine is largely what Stirling told you after Paddy`s death. Stirling wrote his own version of SAS history where he was the star. Harry Sas went on leaps and bounds after Stirling was captured . it was the best thing that happened to them.
Rest Easy Paddy.
The sas would never have got off the ground without the nutty major. He was also a big supporter of the group when it was under threat and understood the leverage it gave during the war effort. That eccentricity and core ethos was a key that allowed the extraordinary soldiering that developed and be put to such effective use in such diverse challenges.
The class war slant rather misses the point.
As Paddy Mayne was a Mason it is beyond belief that Mayne never got the Victoria Cross. Having got four bars to his DSO one wonders why he never got the VC that he richly deserved.
Absolutely spot on my friend!
It's just a piece of metal.
What has being a mason got to do with this? Nothing right!
Some prominent non-officers were very upset at Stirling's capture, and just as upset at the thought of Mayne taking over the regiment. Please get a cup of coffee and read the quotes below. But first, a few questions: Who sold GHQ on the concept of behind-the-lines raiding force of small numbers of men focused on destroying enemy aircraft? David Stirling. Who developed a solid connection with the Prime Minister using the "political" inclusion of Randolf Churchill in raids despite him not being as highly trained and in shape as the rest of the men? David Stirling. This connection was insurance that the SAS would stay in business despite many officers not liking or understanding the strategic value of the SAS. Who let GHQ turn what was then 1 SAS into the Special Raiding Squadron for Sicily and Italy raids from the sea, in commando-sized numbers, rather than fight to retain the behind-the-lines, small unit deployment of parachute-trained men uniquely suited for that? Paddy Mayne. This cost many SAS dead, particularly at the Termoli infantry battle. Who was the only SAS officer during the North African campaign jailed at least twice for fighting? Mayne. Who were the top two SAS officers during this period who drank a lot of alcohol? Stirling and Mayne. Who had a big problem with alcohol? Mayne. It continued and cost him his life.
David Stirling's capture was upsetting to those in his unit, and some of them thought some non-members were happy about it. Below you will see why that might have been. Here are quotes taken from the book, "The Originals - The Secret History of the Birth of the SAS in Their Own Words" by Gordon Stevens. Stevens interviewed David Stirling and some surviving "originals" individually in the 1980s for three days on camera. This was to be used in a movie that did not materialize. Years later Stevens put this book together from their quotes. Each man talked about what he most wanted to talk about, and these paragraphs and stories were printed in chronological order from the beginning to victory in Europe. It is an important read for anyone interested in the wartime SAS.
First a quote from Stirling: “We’ve been approached something like twenty-five times since the war to have a film made about us, and three or four of them I’ve handed down to consideration to others. All the others I haven’t bothered with. I kicked each of them out the window, because they weren’t going to make it with the integrity we require the story of the SAS to be told. And these boys across the table, led by Gordon Stevens, I’m sure they’ll make the story objective, and will make it ring true as well, because the story is no good unless it does justice and pushes the project. We were fighting to win the war, but we were also fighting to create a NEW STRATEGIC ROLE IN THE BRITISH ARMY. (my highlight)
Regarding the impact of Stirling's capture:
Per Sgt Johnny Cooper, Stirling's driver and a navigator: "David's capture was a great blow, we all had misgivings. They wanted to disband us, or they wanted to take, not part of our glory, but they wanted to get rid of this small band of people who were doing so much damage to their pride because they hadn't been able to do it themselves."
Sgt Bob Bennett: "It was terrible, because no one expected it whatsoever, then we came back and thought, well is this the end of SAS? We were all very upset by it. Stirling had been such a leader, and I couldn't possibly at that time see anyone carry on in the same sort of way. Paddy was a brilliant officer, but I think Paddy always needed an eye on him, and Colonel David was the man that kept an eye on him and kept him, you know, on the ball."
Cooper: “David wasn’t liked in GHQ Cairo, because he proved his point every time. He changed his tactics, he proved his point again. They couldn’t go along with that…… My own assessment of David’s loss? I thought it was the end of us.”
Bennett: “It was a shock when Stirling was captured…. We wondered what was going to happen with Stirling out of it and Paddy off somewhere - in fact, I think he was in some jail (true). Of course, that was a killer because he was the only man who could take over.”
Sgt Reg Seekings: “We’d been through a hell of a lot together, so it was quite devastating. To the unit, the whole symbol had gone. And the big question was whether Paddy would have enough influence (with GHQ, Winston Churchill, etc) to swing the day? …..we wondered whether Paddy had got the right connections, and he’d certainly ruffled a lot of feathers….. he turned out to be a great fighter. But it was pretty devastating to the unit.”
David Stirling: “They, Middle East Headquarters, regarded it (his capture) as an opportunity, I think, of reeling in the troublesome (to many of them) SAS, and regularising it. (then he praised Mayne for being the only one to lead this type of unit, and he was able to assert himself. Then he mentioned how 1 SAS was changed) “1 SAS were obliged to undertake operations which weren’t strictly SAS, though they did brilliantly on them (Sicily and Italy), under Paddy Mayne eventually.”
Seekings then talked about how he and Cooper proposed a plan for them to jump into Italy or wherever Stirling was and get him out. They thought they could do anything. “Then the plan to get Stirling out went dead. We got the impression there were certain people who were quite happy for him to remain where he was. It hasn’t changed much today - these people with desk jobs don’t like new things, new people, new ideas. Dangerous. It pushes their noses out of joint.”
So without David Stirling to continue to fight for the SAS to remain a strategic asset rather than a purely tactical one, 1 SAS structure was dismantled and they became the Special Raiding Squadron, under Mayne, misused as a commando infantry-type unit, doing seaborne raids with hundreds of troopers in each one, in Sicily and Italy. The big Termoli attack with SRS and commandos was an infantry battle that used up higher-trained SAS troops. If David Stirling was still in command, it is logical to think he would have talked HQ out of the SRS concept, and instead, 1 SAS would have parachuted deep into Sicily and then in Italy as smaller units to attack supply lines. He would have proposed 50 insertions of four men each, by parachute and boat, hundreds of miles behind the lines in Italy, to blow up railway bridges, derail trains in tunnels, attack airfields, and support partisans. Thankfully during the Normandy invasion planning, Bill Stirling was in a position to campaign for the proper use of the SAS along the lines David and Jock Lewes created. No doubt Bill realized that using the SAS as conventional paratroops near the beaches, which was the original plan, would have ground them up like was done at Termoli. He resigned to support his point, and the SAS went back to their strategic role deep in the heart of France, interdicting Germans heading to Normandy.
Paddy Mayne was an excellent fighter and tactical leader. David Stirling was a strategic idea man, the figurehead, willing to push any envelope. They had supporting but different roles. I hope the quotes above shed more light on who was disappointed about David’s capture, and which types of people were probably happy about it, and importantly, why.
I agree with the above comments. Organisations/Units are always about the people. The people are the Unit and the people are what make the Unit. There is a place for Stirling, as there is a place for Lewis, as there is a place for Mayne, hence all 3 contributed in their own ways and hence they are called 'the 3 founding fathers' of the SAS. Today the Unit is no different, with a diverse group of people, who work together when required, but does not mean they like each other or get-on with each other (Especially post Military service!) and it is ultimately an ethos designed by Stirling that keeps them connected with shared experiences, good or bad.
To understand where the SAS came from with regards David and Bill Stirling, as a concept of specialist type forces and specialist trained forces, there are two books ALL need to read to understand these influences upon them. 'It had to be tough' by James Dunning, but the book that gives a real small snap-shot into the likely foundations of the SAS, though heavy and geographical focused, is 'Commando Country' by Stuart Allan. Yet every SAS Book written, every Historian I've heard lecture or give interviews about the SAS, seem either unaware of the connection, or ignorant deliberately or otherwise, or at best just a paragraph reference, to the Stirling brothers Scotland Military Training experiences. The idea and concept being born as an unclear idea, had not came from a miraculous blue sky thinking moment in North Africa, but from a period of time spent Military training in Scotland, UK. This time in Scotland equipped and furnished Stirling with the foundations and background to build and put his concept onto paper, in the well known story while in Hospital in North Africa. Hopefully one day Historians will understand this reality and pathway to the formation of the SAS with regards concept, idea and training. Though from personal knowledge, most Historians have never served in the Military, so miss these little nuances that are actually really important to the facts and truth, when trying to find-out where Military ideas people have, may have originated from.
Who Dares Wins
Exactly. Stirlings first mission was. He recruited Mayne into the Regiment.
Your analysis is on point.
Isn't it a shame that comparisons always result in a trashing of one man or the other?
There is room to respect and honour both men - all three, in fact. Mustn't forget Jock Lewes.
@@graceygrumbleexactly!!!!!
I'm glad he mentioned the LRDG, because before the SAS became "public" during the Iranian Embassy hostage rescue, many cases of stolen valor in the UK involved people claiming to have served in the LRDG, up to that point, arguably the coolest special operations unit in the UK. Once the SAS appeared on television, stolen valor claims began shifting to the SAS. Some TH-cam "documentary" videos even began either claiming that the SAS had its beginnings in the LRDG, or merging the two together.
Mayne should get a fairer depiction in the next series of RH which goes into France.
Italy should be next! Agreed through, good chance to tone him down a bit as he takes command of the regiment. Jack O’Connell was very very watchable but they have done him a disservice. The family trying to sue the bbc apparently.
They would of followed him anywhere. Shame so many like my uncle are forgotten and lost from records
Old post but I just spotted it. The Italian operations by SRS (1 SAS under Mayne) would provide an opportunity to show Mayne's tactical ability, and also his role at times during the 1945 push into Germany. Not the French ops, where most of the action was provided by Captains and below. For TV shows and movies, the French ops can provide more roles by French women, interesting Maquis characters, the occasional SOE agent and Jedburgh Team, a 1SAS padre, the evil SS, Gestapo, Milice and informers. And mostly small unit actions so the movie budget can be low. There were some very interesting ops in Italy by 2SAS especially Tombola. Maj Roy Farran's book would make a great movie.
So,in Rogue Heroes Paddy Mayne is portrayed as a very capable soldier with a drinking problem and a tendency to be violent at times, on and off the battlefield. Mr Mortimer would have you believe that Paddy Mayne was a brave tactical genius that hated swearing and was a Mother figure to all under him.I guess somewhere between the two tales lies the truth.
Unusual map behind you of the British Isles never seen one like that
Hmm... Is Ireland still British?
Was it ever?
My wifes grandfather Dr Mc Shannon tended Paddy twice , the second was at the scene of the car crash in 1955, Paddy should have survived according to the Doctor ,instead he died in the ambulance . Their first meeting was on an Easter Sunday morning in 1949, at 6am 3 men knocked on the door, Paddy needed stitches to his tongue following an altercation, my father in law John Mc Shannon assisted the doctor and the wound was stitched ,as Paddy left he threw the doctor 2 pounds, the Doctor refused the money addressing him as Colonel Blair , Paddy lifted the doctor by the lapels against the wall and said "no man refuses my money ", and left.
Neither Mayne or Stirling ever married. I find that especially odd about Mayne, given that he was such an impressive fellow.
sterling played his part only he could have done it,with his upbringing his contacts his vision and he was brave ,mayne was also the only one who could have been as he was brilliant soldier brave as any man could be strong smart a leader of men who beside him must have been lifted ,so a great combination of what it took to do what they did ,if sterling did boost him self as is said here it should not take away from what he achieved and his mental state after the war must have suffered as all soldiers do,so this book has a title that is not fitting at all its better to honour all our military men and women for wearing the uniform and giving there life to save us
Rogue heroes was a disgrace. Paddy Mayne was what we considered “proper”. He was educated, qualified as a lawyer and from a good family well regarded in his local area. He was not the west Belfast taxi driver type as portrayed in that most useless of tv series.
I think we all know wye they ignored you book because they know its true 😊
i believe that sterling was nothing more than a dodgy second hand car salesman or a modern day politition
You might try reading my very long post 11 months ago, especially the quotes from some L Detachment originals that knew him best.
great work, thanks. But i don't get how a cute young women who looks completely out of place considering the subject is conducting this interview, and clearly knows a lot more than i do about this history. That, and she's not even British
series is so bad, this needs to be made by someone who can make compelling tv or movies with quality actors