Really interesting how the tuning in distant modulations clashes with that of the nearer ones. It emphasizes the structure of the piece, it's kinda like a color saturation of the distinct tonalities
I know. a piano tuner who said he never found Mozart's piano works especially interesting, bu then he started playing through them is Well Tempering his mind was blown. Mateus,, come see (hear) an example of the new A432hz-based tuning by Robert Edward Grant! th-cam.com/video/L7P70PWaMEE/w-d-xo.html
Better to put it in E flat major just intonation and play in A major. Easier to compare. But even so there were some funky notes in this video as is 1:25.
It's really clever because at any given moment, the only notes being played are the root, third, and fifth of whatever chord that moment is in. The chord is constantly changing, and neighboring chords are often dissonant to each other, but there's no dissonance within chord. It's an interesting constraint and it's like nothing else Shostakovich ever composed (but his other music is still great I promise ;D )
I love fugues - they can be so "intellectual" - sometimes with JS Bach - yet also just beautiful and intricate. THANK YOU for including the manuscript (frorm former pianist!). This one by Shostakovich is LOVELY!
That is fascinating and gorgeous. I love the way the colours shift with this tuning - it's very unfamiliar to me and lifts an already exquisite piece. Beautifully played, too.
This is going to live rent free in my head for days now. Could we have just a smidgeon of explanation, please? Did Shostakovich specify that it should be played in just intonation (presumably he had a piano tuner friend who offered to split the take), or did someone just see this and decide, quite rightly, that it would sound absolutely amazing that way? I think we should be told.
This tune was wrought by a soul who labored under the crushing weight of cruel tyranny. Then this flower appeared, drenched in the dews of heaven and bathed in golden sunlight. The flower spoke: "Come to me, my hummingbirds, that I may give thee suck, for which cause came I into the world, that thou should delight thyselves in fatness!"
Triggers much more emotions than ET. 🍵😇 {["Though I spotted one singular off note lol"]} And best of all: You didn't pitch drift it away!!!! Very wise transcription.
A beautiful composition that I'd never heard before. I do not like just intonation much. The tinniness is grating. But Shostakovich managed through his genius to generate a very appealing, rigorous, Russian-inflected, post-modern sounding work with the oldest trick in tonality--arpeggiated major triads. Incredible.
This probably sounds "out of tune" because we're not accustomed to piano pitches drifting all over the place during a performance to fit the precise tuning of each chord (Johnny explains in some of the comments that this is what was done. It's not a single piano with just one tuning.) If this were played by a string ensemble using these exact pitches, it would likely sound perfectly normal, since string instruments can play each note slightly sharp or flat to fit a necessary chord function and we're used to hearing that. I think it would be equally interesting to, for instance, hear one of Shostakovich's string quartets played in precise equal temperament. No playing minor thirds slightly sharp or flat sevenths *extra* flat. It would also probably sound "out of tune" to us, as well, even though that's exactly how all keyboard instruments are tuned nowadays. Just a matter of exposure and expectation, I guess.
ah, my absolute favorite of the preludes and fugues...first time i heard it my whole spirit lifted up...oddly, that was the keith jarret recording. i like his classical piano , and dont care for the jazz..
It’s sounds a bit off to me - I have to admit I prefer it in equal temperament. I guess it’s just what my ears are accustomed to. I’ve heard pieces that were composed in just intonation that I thought sounded beautiful when played on a JI-tuned piano, though.
It's not just a bit off, it's very out of tune. As a cellist I pretty much approximate everything to just intonation and it is easy to hear the flaws. I would even argue equal temperament sounds a lot better in half the places here.
So I get that each triad is justly in tune to itself. But how are the different keys tuned relative to one another? Is the root E in E major the same as the fifth E in A major? What about when it goes to D major after that?
Yeah, the chords are related by common tone or by simple ratio when there is no common tone--so yes, the root in an E major chord is the same as the fifth of an A major chord, whose root is the same as the fifth of a D major chord, etc.
Interesting experiment, if only to show the necessity of equal temperament for music that modulates (even if only briefly) from the main key. Is someone playing this or is it a MIDI recording ?
This is a MIDI rendition--it would be impossible on a real piano, because I actually do use different scales to keep all the modulations in tune. Every triad is a perfect 4:5:6, and they're all related to each other by common tone, which in this case is possible without drifting off-center. If anything, this shows that equal temperament is not necessary :)
@@DocBree13 it wouldn’t be possible on a real piano unless the piano had like 18 notes per octave or so. To keep everything in tune, we need two different versions of many of the notes. For instance, the pitch B is tuned 9:8 if it’s part of an E major chord, but 10:9 in bar 29 in the B minor chords, because these B minor chords come from a different direction so to speak, they’re next to F# minor and C# minor, so in a different harmonic region. A real piano only has one B, so it couldn’t get both of these chords in tune
@@JustMusic1685 Well if you believe equal temperament isn't necessary then you might as well set the clock back 300 years and say that Bach had it all wrong.
@@JustMusic1685 Here is a solution pre-dating Bach. It's only 14 notes per octave but at least provides proof-of-concept. th-cam.com/video/7GhAuZH6phs/w-d-xo.html
Really takes a second for my ears to get used to this, but then it somehow gets more and more unfamiliar the more I listen to it, strange thing pitch/tuning is...
Am I the only person here, who didn't hear it as "out of tune"? To me it sounds perfectly fine and resonant. I really liked it. The only parts that sounded microtonal to me are the modulations, but this is a thing to expect
i first heard as a bit strange sounding(not necessarily out of tune) but if I listen closely enough I can catch one or two just notes not being where it has to be
The point of just intonation is to be more in tune than actually in tune, since instead of absolute tuning each chord is slightly adjusted to perfect the harmonic
@@52flyingbicycles I know. But there seems to be a lot of people in the comments, to whom this interpretation sounded "off" or like a "beautiful piece played on an out-of-tune piano"
Thanks for the question! I used many different 12-note scales-each one gets one key-area perfectly in tune. The pitches don’t wander because (for example) to get from the A major region to the F# major region, C# is a common tone: 5:4 in A becomes 3:2 in F#
I know what just intonation is. I know our ears are trained towards tempered intonation. I still can’t get used to it. To me it was a beautiful, beautiful piece played on an out-of-tune piano. Shame on me.
That's because it *is* out of tune. You can only be justly in-tune relative to a single key, like in this case A major. So when this piece wanders into more distant keys like F or Bb or C#, it *is* out of tune, objectively speaking. It's no longer the pure ratios, because those pure ratios only work in A major.
@@calvingodfrey7340 Well - when singing or playing the violin (for instance) you adjust your scales to the keys you modulate to. In the harmonic language as set out by JS Bach - there is little reason not to stay in just intonation through all the modulations. It is more problematic in many more modern compositions though.
@@schubertuk Yeah, on any instrument in which you can "naturally" (and often instinctively) move to just intonation on thirds- it is after all, only a couple cents of a difference. These instruments would be any instruments that are wind or brass and allow changing of pitch just by embouchure, and fretless string instruments. These can just ever so slightly change tuning so that an "e" that is the tonic of an e minor chord is slightly different in terms of Hz than an e that is the third of a c major chord. It is a thing you can feel, when my trombone section did block chord warmups you could feel when it was "locked in" and the 'pulsing' (think that's the word? When the different sound waves are not resonant causing the harmony to sound like it is "waving") stops.
If you did this acoustically (did you? I’m too dumb to notice) you’d have to retune the whole piano to A Major just intonation, play the song, then tune it BACK to fixed intonation. Which would be several hours of work
Interesting, often very beautiful and it is just intonation; it’s just not consistently applied according to harmonic function. “Just intonation” is actually two (very incompatible) simultaneous systems-harmonic and melodic intonations-that together clarify functions of every note for the listener, both harmonically and melodically, in a piece of tonal music. When a harmonic root drops by a third, as in a progression from C major to A minor, the E-natural third of C major, which in just intonation is quite low so as to conform to the harmonic series, changes function to the fifth of A minor, it has to move appreciably sharper, which isn’t always happening here. Unaccompanied melody-and sometimes two-part counterpoint-uses consistently narrow half-steps. Properly applied, just intonation is an art in aid of interpretive clarity. Although all its elements can be quantified mathematically, it’s not a mathematically-applied system; it’s a constant series of (hopefully informed!) judgment calls.
There’s no difference between harmonic and melodic JI. (A major third is 5:4 whether it’s vertical or horizontal.) In your example, if C is 1:1, E is 5:4 and A is 5:3, producing a pure minor triad. Or you can calculate from E, in which case the C is a little “sharp” (4:5) and the A is 2:3. Your problem occurs only when you presuppose equal temperament and modify each note. I instead made a few JI scales that get every triad perfectly in tune and connected to the next by common tone
@@JustMusic1685 I’m very interested in what you’ve done here. Actually, I don’t presuppose equal temperament at all; Ross Duffin’s book “How Equal Temperament Ruined Music” reflects my own views rather well, but the basic point is that just intonation has to reflect the chord exactly where and how it changes. If you have a modulation from A minor, say, to C major, the E-natural common to both chords changes function. What was the third becomes the fifth, so it must rise, which you know very well-and has to do so exactly when the harmony changes, or the new harmony is misunderstood. In other words, it’s not that what you’ve done here is deviating from just intonation, but that your harmonic analysis sometimes extends harmonies past where Shostakovich intends they move-which, I admit, creates other problems. Again, thank you for doing this, it’s very interesting work.
Thanks for your response! I agree with you, and some of these problems you mentioned do come up occasionally. However, not all the time-in your example of modulating from A minor to C major, the E does indeed change function from the 5th to the 3rd. But the pitch doesn’t change. Neither does the C. It’s the A that sounds lower than it would in equal temperament to be a pure 5th with the E. It might sound like I’m nitpicking, but this principal is why just intonation actually does work 80-100% of the time (depending on the piece), and why there’s only one spot in this fugue where a note (B-natural) changes from one chord to the next in order to prevent the tonal center from slipping down. Happy to show you in more detail what I did if you’re interested!
@@mylesjordan9970 The problem with modulating from C major to A minor in your example is not the E, because it stays the same pitch in both keys. It's actually the D, which is derived by going two fifths up from C, that forms an awkwardly large imperfect fourth with A. Any parallel minor scale will have such an imperfect fourth and, consequently, an imperfect iv chord. Here's how you can confirm this. In order to build a C major scale, you need three major chords: I (CEG), IV (FAC) and V (GBD). In order to be consonant, the thirds of these three chords (E, A & B) will all have to be a syntonic comma flat. Because they're all flat by the same amount, they will be on the same comma level and thus consonant between themselves. The E-A fourth is pure, as is the E-B fifth. Naturally, as A-C is a pure minor third within the IV (FAC) and C-E a pure major third within the I (CEG), A-E has to be a perfect fifth, making ACE a perfectly in-tune minor chord. However, the one additional scale degree which is not derived as a pure major third of the I, IV or V degrees, but is rather introduced as the perfect fifth of the V (G-D), will be a comma level higher compared to the other ones. This is why A-D can't be a perfect fourth, rendering the parallel minor scale/key unusable in pure just intonation. Either the A would have to go up, or the D would have to go down.
Interesting... that so many people find this music lovely... I find it bordering on a totally empty exercise in insipid and bland arpeggio's. There is no meat on the bones of this composition,... save at one point. I think I read elsewhere about Shostakovich, making up rules for "perfect music" that would only contain "consonant harmonies" within the key, and that for instance in a measure that outlined a "c" chord ,... a "b" note could not occur, but would have to wait for a measure containing say notes in a "g" chord. The results are so vacuously empty, reminding me of those Wyndham hill records ... was that the label? George Winston or some such. This piece could be labeled "Sparkling White Snow on a Crisp New England Winter"..... If You listen to this music long enough, Your brain could evaporate, or melt into library paste.... I hope You realize , I say this with some bemused humor! bla bla bla. For those saying this is beautifully played ,... I am pretty sure this is a quantized midi performance on an "e" piano.
For real if this were played on a real piano the modulations would sound much worse than they do in this recording. He’s changing the tuning on the fly for each modulation with MIDI.
Right, it’s not in any temperament, since temperament means limiting the number of different pitches to make it practical. (For example, A# and Bb are actually different notes.) This is done with midi, so practicality isn’t a consideration
Research this piece a bit more, then. This was written as a mockery of the strict repression of the arts by the soviet regime of the time, hence Shostakovich writing as much of a simplistic and conservative harmony, including a full absence of passing tones or any notes outside the harmony.
I don't understand what you mean. The counterpoint isn't "audible"? If you didn't know the piece was a fugue, and therefore intended to be "contrapuntal", would you have the same concern? At any rate, the way you put it makes it sound like the tuning system obscures the counterpoint; the just thirds makes the triads almost sound invisible, if that makes sense... but that's not what you mean, right? so what do you mean?
Great example of how horrible just intonation sounds; literally everything other than A chords and scales sounds completely out of tune, and all intervals between such also sound awful. Turns what is supposed to be a prime example of beautiful harmony into a jarring ruination. It's borderline reprehensible to destroy good music like this. I suggest everyone go listen to this piece in 12-TET and hear how beautiful it really is when not ruined in this manner.
This is the most peaceful Shostakovich piece i've ever heard
The only one that doesnt give me traumatizing auditory hallucinations...more than that, it's genuinely beautiful.
Listen to the thirteenth, F# major. I've played it, monstrous to play, a total joy to listen to.
Really interesting how the tuning in distant modulations clashes with that of the nearer ones. It emphasizes the structure of the piece, it's kinda like a color saturation of the distinct tonalities
I know. a piano tuner who said he never found Mozart's piano works especially interesting, bu then he started playing through them is Well Tempering his mind was blown.
Mateus,, come see (hear) an example of the new A432hz-based tuning by Robert Edward Grant! th-cam.com/video/L7P70PWaMEE/w-d-xo.html
Now, play this in E flat major with the A major just intonation
Cmd A, shift T, transpose by interval, up, diminished 5th
Would love to see this
@@simonvanprooijen You forgot the loose sanity step after hearing the result
Better to put it in E flat major just intonation and play in A major. Easier to compare. But even so there were some funky notes in this video as is 1:25.
🤣🤣🤣
Beautifully performed. I'm also so happy that it's in just intonation, I've always wanted to hear it like this.
0:27 - just beautiful
That was just beautiful. I've never really been blown away by Shostakovich...until now.
It's really clever because at any given moment, the only notes being played are the root, third, and fifth of whatever chord that moment is in. The chord is constantly changing, and neighboring chords are often dissonant to each other, but there's no dissonance within chord. It's an interesting constraint and it's like nothing else Shostakovich ever composed (but his other music is still great I promise ;D )
It's garbage
@@Whatismusic123 no
I love fugues - they can be so "intellectual" - sometimes with JS Bach - yet also just beautiful and intricate. THANK YOU for including the manuscript (frorm former pianist!). This one by Shostakovich is LOVELY!
former pianist? you should pick up the piano again!
@@obonyxiamexactly!!!
That is fascinating and gorgeous. I love the way the colours shift with this tuning - it's very unfamiliar to me and lifts an already exquisite piece.
Beautifully played, too.
Thank you very much
It may have taken me years to find out about Shostakovich's preludes and fugues if it weren't for this video.
Amazing pieces
Might be one of my favourite renditions of this piece honestly, I love it
Brilliant piece, brilliant performance! Bravo!
Piano sounds so eerie in just intonation
Sounds really ethereal. Love it
That was soooo beautiful!
Irreproachable. A+ work.
This is just such a colorful piece - even though it’s incredibly awkward to play. Amazingly beautiful 😍
nice work! some real weirdos in the comments who dont know what theyre talking about tho lol
Замечательный Шостакович 👏
Very nice!
This is going to live rent free in my head for days now.
Could we have just a smidgeon of explanation, please? Did Shostakovich specify that it should be played in just intonation (presumably he had a piano tuner friend who offered to split the take), or did someone just see this and decide, quite rightly, that it would sound absolutely amazing that way?
I think we should be told.
Shostakovich simply had to write these lovely triads. It's implied that triads are supposed to be in tune :)
@@JustMusic1685 Yes, that was my reaction: Listen to how in tune that piano is! It was great.
This tune was wrought by a soul who labored under the crushing weight of cruel tyranny. Then this flower appeared, drenched in the dews of heaven and bathed in golden sunlight. The flower spoke: "Come to me, my hummingbirds, that I may give thee suck, for which cause came I into the world, that thou should delight thyselves in fatness!"
Triggers much more emotions than ET. 🍵😇
{["Though I spotted one singular off note lol"]}
And best of all: You didn't pitch drift it away!!!!
Very wise transcription.
Magical
It's addictive
A beautiful composition that I'd never heard before. I do not like just intonation much. The tinniness is grating. But Shostakovich managed through his genius to generate a very appealing, rigorous, Russian-inflected, post-modern sounding work with the oldest trick in tonality--arpeggiated major triads. Incredible.
This probably sounds "out of tune" because we're not accustomed to piano pitches drifting all over the place during a performance to fit the precise tuning of each chord (Johnny explains in some of the comments that this is what was done. It's not a single piano with just one tuning.) If this were played by a string ensemble using these exact pitches, it would likely sound perfectly normal, since string instruments can play each note slightly sharp or flat to fit a necessary chord function and we're used to hearing that.
I think it would be equally interesting to, for instance, hear one of Shostakovich's string quartets played in precise equal temperament. No playing minor thirds slightly sharp or flat sevenths *extra* flat. It would also probably sound "out of tune" to us, as well, even though that's exactly how all keyboard instruments are tuned nowadays. Just a matter of exposure and expectation, I guess.
Just intonation literally actively makes the music progressively more out of tune.
@@Whatismusic123 no
Che bello fugue
ah, my absolute favorite of the preludes and fugues...first time i heard it my whole spirit lifted up...oddly, that was the keith jarret recording. i like his classical piano , and dont care for the jazz..
Did somebody play this on a lumatone?
It would be easily possible
Music in Heaven.
Î loved this piece. I don’t usually like or listen to Shostakovich
It’s sounds a bit off to me - I have to admit I prefer it in equal temperament. I guess it’s just what my ears are accustomed to. I’ve heard pieces that were composed in just intonation that I thought sounded beautiful when played on a JI-tuned piano, though.
It's not just a bit off, it's very out of tune. As a cellist I pretty much approximate everything to just intonation and it is easy to hear the flaws. I would even argue equal temperament sounds a lot better in half the places here.
Never would have guessed that's Shostakovich.
Nor would I, although I'm not sure if it reminds me of anyone else. Prokofiev (maybe?)?
@@littlemarmoset Not at all.
here i am
This is so beautiful. Does anyone know if there is a score with fingerprint settings available? I have tried my best to browse www without any luck 🙂
So I get that each triad is justly in tune to itself. But how are the different keys tuned relative to one another? Is the root E in E major the same as the fifth E in A major? What about when it goes to D major after that?
Yeah, the chords are related by common tone or by simple ratio when there is no common tone--so yes, the root in an E major chord is the same as the fifth of an A major chord, whose root is the same as the fifth of a D major chord, etc.
Interesting experiment, if only to show the necessity of equal temperament for music that modulates (even if only briefly) from the main key. Is someone playing this or is it a MIDI recording ?
This is a MIDI rendition--it would be impossible on a real piano, because I actually do use different scales to keep all the modulations in tune. Every triad is a perfect 4:5:6, and they're all related to each other by common tone, which in this case is possible without drifting off-center. If anything, this shows that equal temperament is not necessary :)
@@JustMusic1685
I’m not sure I understand - why wouldn’t it he possible on a real piano?
@@DocBree13 it wouldn’t be possible on a real piano unless the piano had like 18 notes per octave or so. To keep everything in tune, we need two different versions of many of the notes. For instance, the pitch B is tuned 9:8 if it’s part of an E major chord, but 10:9 in bar 29 in the B minor chords, because these B minor chords come from a different direction so to speak, they’re next to F# minor and C# minor, so in a different harmonic region. A real piano only has one B, so it couldn’t get both of these chords in tune
@@JustMusic1685 Well if you believe equal temperament isn't necessary then you might as well set the clock back 300 years and say that Bach had it all wrong.
@@JustMusic1685 Here is a solution pre-dating Bach. It's only 14 notes per octave but at least provides proof-of-concept. th-cam.com/video/7GhAuZH6phs/w-d-xo.html
Really takes a second for my ears to get used to this, but then it somehow gets more and more unfamiliar the more I listen to it, strange thing pitch/tuning is...
👏🏻👏🏻💐
shostakovich after a massage:
Am I the only person here, who didn't hear it as "out of tune"? To me it sounds perfectly fine and resonant. I really liked it.
The only parts that sounded microtonal to me are the modulations, but this is a thing to expect
i first heard as a bit strange sounding(not necessarily out of tune) but if I listen closely enough I can catch one or two just notes not being where it has to be
The point of just intonation is to be more in tune than actually in tune, since instead of absolute tuning each chord is slightly adjusted to perfect the harmonic
@@52flyingbicycles I know. But there seems to be a lot of people in the comments, to whom this interpretation sounded "off" or like a "beautiful piece played on an out-of-tune piano"
@@АркадийЛевский-м2р yeah the only strange parts really are the modulations, after a second of the new key it sounds normal.
@@52flyingbicycles just intonation is a pseudoscience
I have no idea what any of you are talking about, but this was very, very pretty.
how do you handle modulations in just intonation?
Thanks for the question! I used many different 12-note scales-each one gets one key-area perfectly in tune. The pitches don’t wander because (for example) to get from the A major region to the F# major region, C# is a common tone: 5:4 in A becomes 3:2 in F#
Is there streaming available for this on Apple Music?
kinda cute ngl Xd
Sounds a bit like a ringtone
You have been truly spoiled if your ringtone was anything really comparable.
I know what just intonation is. I know our ears are trained towards tempered intonation. I still can’t get used to it. To me it was a beautiful, beautiful piece played on an out-of-tune piano. Shame on me.
What does it exactly mean?
That's because it *is* out of tune. You can only be justly in-tune relative to a single key, like in this case A major. So when this piece wanders into more distant keys like F or Bb or C#, it *is* out of tune, objectively speaking. It's no longer the pure ratios, because those pure ratios only work in A major.
@@calvingodfrey7340 Well - when singing or playing the violin (for instance) you adjust your scales to the keys you modulate to. In the harmonic language as set out by JS Bach - there is little reason not to stay in just intonation through all the modulations. It is more problematic in many more modern compositions though.
@@calvingodfrey7340Do the passages in Bb or F# major sound out of tune? Listen again.
@@schubertuk Yeah, on any instrument in which you can "naturally" (and often instinctively) move to just intonation on thirds- it is after all, only a couple cents of a difference. These instruments would be any instruments that are wind or brass and allow changing of pitch just by embouchure, and fretless string instruments. These can just ever so slightly change tuning so that an "e" that is the tonic of an e minor chord is slightly different in terms of Hz than an e that is the third of a c major chord.
It is a thing you can feel, when my trombone section did block chord warmups you could feel when it was "locked in" and the 'pulsing' (think that's the word? When the different sound waves are not resonant causing the harmony to sound like it is "waving") stops.
If you did this acoustically (did you? I’m too dumb to notice) you’d have to retune the whole piano to A Major just intonation, play the song, then tune it BACK to fixed intonation. Which would be several hours of work
I did it on MIDI--it would be impossible to do on a real piano, since you need two different notes for A#/Bb (for instance)
@@JustMusic1685Which is why way back in the day some keyboards had split sharps.
This piece sounds like a morning phone alarm
It does
Interesting, often very beautiful and it is just intonation; it’s just not consistently applied according to harmonic function. “Just intonation” is actually two (very incompatible) simultaneous systems-harmonic and melodic intonations-that together clarify functions of every note for the listener, both harmonically and melodically, in a piece of tonal music. When a harmonic root drops by a third, as in a progression from C major to A minor, the E-natural third of C major, which in just intonation is quite low so as to conform to the harmonic series, changes function to the fifth of A minor, it has to move appreciably sharper, which isn’t always happening here. Unaccompanied melody-and sometimes two-part counterpoint-uses consistently narrow half-steps. Properly applied, just intonation is an art in aid of interpretive clarity. Although all its elements can be quantified mathematically, it’s not a mathematically-applied system; it’s a constant series of (hopefully informed!) judgment calls.
There’s no difference between harmonic and melodic JI. (A major third is 5:4 whether it’s vertical or horizontal.) In your example, if C is 1:1, E is 5:4 and A is 5:3, producing a pure minor triad. Or you can calculate from E, in which case the C is a little “sharp” (4:5) and the A is 2:3. Your problem occurs only when you presuppose equal temperament and modify each note. I instead made a few JI scales that get every triad perfectly in tune and connected to the next by common tone
@@JustMusic1685 I’m very interested in what you’ve done here. Actually, I don’t presuppose equal temperament at all; Ross Duffin’s book “How Equal Temperament Ruined Music” reflects my own views rather well, but the basic point is that just intonation has to reflect the chord exactly where and how it changes. If you have a modulation from A minor, say, to C major, the E-natural common to both chords changes function. What was the third becomes the fifth, so it must rise, which you know very well-and has to do so exactly when the harmony changes, or the new harmony is misunderstood. In other words, it’s not that what you’ve done here is deviating from just intonation, but that your harmonic analysis sometimes extends harmonies past where Shostakovich intends they move-which, I admit, creates other problems. Again, thank you for doing this, it’s very interesting work.
Thanks for your response! I agree with you, and some of these problems you mentioned do come up occasionally. However, not all the time-in your example of modulating from A minor to C major, the E does indeed change function from the 5th to the 3rd. But the pitch doesn’t change. Neither does the C. It’s the A that sounds lower than it would in equal temperament to be a pure 5th with the E. It might sound like I’m nitpicking, but this principal is why just intonation actually does work 80-100% of the time (depending on the piece), and why there’s only one spot in this fugue where a note (B-natural) changes from one chord to the next in order to prevent the tonal center from slipping down. Happy to show you in more detail what I did if you’re interested!
@@mylesjordan9970 The problem with modulating from C major to A minor in your example is not the E, because it stays the same pitch in both keys. It's actually the D, which is derived by going two fifths up from C, that forms an awkwardly large imperfect fourth with A. Any parallel minor scale will have such an imperfect fourth and, consequently, an imperfect iv chord.
Here's how you can confirm this. In order to build a C major scale, you need three major chords: I (CEG), IV (FAC) and V (GBD). In order to be consonant, the thirds of these three chords (E, A & B) will all have to be a syntonic comma flat. Because they're all flat by the same amount, they will be on the same comma level and thus consonant between themselves. The E-A fourth is pure, as is the E-B fifth. Naturally, as A-C is a pure minor third within the IV (FAC) and C-E a pure major third within the I (CEG), A-E has to be a perfect fifth, making ACE a perfectly in-tune minor chord.
However, the one additional scale degree which is not derived as a pure major third of the I, IV or V degrees, but is rather introduced as the perfect fifth of the V (G-D), will be a comma level higher compared to the other ones. This is why A-D can't be a perfect fourth, rendering the parallel minor scale/key unusable in pure just intonation. Either the A would have to go up, or the D would have to go down.
It really starts falling apart around 1:25
If anyone ever needs to understand why the well temperament was such a revolution I'll link him this.
Interesting... that so many people find this music lovely... I find it bordering on a totally empty exercise in insipid and bland arpeggio's. There is no meat on the bones of this composition,... save at one point. I think I read elsewhere about Shostakovich, making up rules for "perfect music" that would only contain "consonant harmonies" within the key, and that for instance in a measure that outlined a "c" chord ,... a "b" note could not occur, but would have to wait for a measure containing say notes in a "g" chord. The results are so vacuously empty, reminding me of those Wyndham hill records ... was that the label? George Winston or some such. This piece could be labeled "Sparkling White Snow on a Crisp New England Winter"..... If You listen to this music long enough, Your brain could evaporate, or melt into library paste.... I hope You realize , I say this with some bemused humor! bla bla bla.
For those saying this is beautifully played ,... I am pretty sure this is a quantized midi performance on an "e" piano.
This comment section is full of people who don't know what just intonation is. The modulations aren't out of tune.
Thank you.
For real if this were played on a real piano the modulations would sound much worse than they do in this recording. He’s changing the tuning on the fly for each modulation with MIDI.
학교 종소리로 쓰기에 딱
what does "in just intonation" mean?
It's a pseudoscience, don't worry about it.
@@Whatismusic123 no
Troïka
Please explain what "in just intonation" means. Does this mean the instrument is not "well tempered"?
Right, it’s not in any temperament, since temperament means limiting the number of different pitches to make it practical. (For example, A# and Bb are actually different notes.) This is done with midi, so practicality isn’t a consideration
Also just intonation is a pseudoscience, equivalent to the A=432 and atonality cults.
"atonality cult" 😂😂😂😂😂
SOLID PROOF SHOSTAKOVICH WAS OVERRATED. THIS IS SO CHILDISH
You dont know how hard it is to write a fugue, right?
@@pamplemoo it's not hard to write a bad piece and pretend that it's a fugue like this one.
@@Whatismusic123 no
@@Whatismusic123What is bad about it?
@@hdbrot nothing, WIM is just being pretentious
Garbage fugue. None of the counterpoint is audible.
Research this piece a bit more, then. This was written as a mockery of the strict repression of the arts by the soviet regime of the time, hence Shostakovich writing as much of a simplistic and conservative harmony, including a full absence of passing tones or any notes outside the harmony.
@@KalimbaJammer wow very cool. Maybe research the fact that that doesn't make it not garbage.
I don't understand what you mean. The counterpoint isn't "audible"? If you didn't know the piece was a fugue, and therefore intended to be "contrapuntal", would you have the same concern? At any rate, the way you put it makes it sound like the tuning system obscures the counterpoint; the just thirds makes the triads almost sound invisible, if that makes sense... but that's not what you mean, right? so what do you mean?
Try playing it, then decide. It's difficult, and sweet, and it's not Bach.
I can hear very well, maybe check your eyes? They're probably garbage
Non la conoscevo!È molto bella,proverò a suonarla....❤
Great example of how horrible just intonation sounds; literally everything other than A chords and scales sounds completely out of tune, and all intervals between such also sound awful. Turns what is supposed to be a prime example of beautiful harmony into a jarring ruination. It's borderline reprehensible to destroy good music like this.
I suggest everyone go listen to this piece in 12-TET and hear how beautiful it really is when not ruined in this manner.
Tbf there's no good music to be destroyed.
This sounds perfect
@@pamplemoo:
Yes, absolutely perfect; to people without ears, that is.
@@hoon_sol you seem quite confident for someone who knows nothing of microtonality
there are many forms of just intonation and some sound pretty astounding in my opinion