Former pastor here. Thank you for this. I’ve lived in a parsonage, actually. Most churches have fewer than 150 members now, and the only way they can afford a pastor, even part time, is by offering them a place to live. My congregation had about 40 people in it. I was not in poverty, but I was not in extreme wealth. My salary, added to the fair market value of the parsonage meant that I made about the same as the average of the individuals in my church made. I worked hard-well over 50 hours a week, was there at death beds, hospital visits, community meetings. Did all the sermons, funerals, emergencies for church members and community members who might call, pastoral counseling, pre-marital counseling, etc. We did coat drives in the winter, had a food pantry, provided emergency funds to pay for people’s utility bills, paid for kids’ school lunch bills when their parents couldn’t. I officiated gay and straight weddings, we stood up for equity when we had the opportunity, and worked on ourselves and our own prejudices and assumptions. I say this not to toot my own horn, but to make it clear that there are lots of tiny churches that work to offer care and justice to the communities they inhabit. While I got out of the ministry because it was too demanding for me, physically and emotionally, I just wanted your listeners to be aware of the reality in most congregations out there. These prosperity gospel people are wrecking the faith for everyone. I despise them. While I get the desire to tax them, that also means that their seat at the political table becomes legitimised, and that the rest of us agree there should be no separation of church and state. What if we treated them just like any other 501c3? They cannot maintain their nonprofit status if they continue to engage in self-dealing. I know-there are issues with this idea, unfortunately, but, yeesh. I wish we could rein them in somehow, These awful people . . .
I know. I experienced such a church when I moved but they are getting fewer by the day. The congregants are flocking to these cults of personality and they are able to attract the youth with their media savvy methods. They saw the Catholic church and said hold my anointing horn.
Yes, I'm friends with my vicar. The vicarage is a reasonably large 4 bedroom house. It's nice, but it's not huge or ostentatious. It was built to be a sensible size for someone with a growing family. Like you, he is a lovely person who follows the example of Christ. He works quite closely with drug users and the church runs a centre for asylum seekers and refugees. I am religious. From my imperfect and human understanding of the teachings of Christ, he preached helping those in need and doing what you can to alleviate suffering. Gaining personal wealth isn't the point.
Thank you for sharing. I have a very similar experience as you. So many people are looking at the large churches with deserving judgement, not understanding that there are soooo many more small struggling churches out there doing good work.
As an Atheist and someone who is against organized religion as a concept in general..because of all the historical damage it has done (especially to women) as well as the sexism and homophobia and other issues that are still very much alive in the church today in general (with the exeption of some specific churches who are very progressive in these issues)... I want to THANK YOU for all that you have done for your community as a leader of a small church. I wish there were more people like you in the world. I'm very much about community, people helping each other... people helping those less fortunate than they are, the sick, the poor and anyone who is just struggling with a chapter in their life. If there is anyone who can help in the community, they should. Just as a fellow human being... nothing to do with religion (for me anyways). I really like the saying "If you need the fear of hell to make you a good person then you weren't a good person to begin with." This applies to everything in life... from helping people in need, to marriage fidelity, to crime, to paying the taxes one should. And everything in between. If people don't have a moral compass no church will really change them. Especially not a giant church in which to see the pastor you need binoculars or a giant screen. That sounds more like a convention than a community organization. I wish that there were no mega churches the size of a stadiums... and instead smaller churches such as yours. So much more personal, people helping their local community.. makes the community stronger on a micro level. Which is what we as a society should be striving for on the macro level. I think that the bigger the church the more money it makes the more it should be taxed and the taxes should go to smaller community organizarions (non profits especially) to help people on a more local community level, even small churches such as yours.
I grew up Australian evangelical (which is VERY different to American Evangelical) and I was shocked when I discovered that people actively preach the tithe should go to the church. I always thought the tithe was 10% to go to God, in other words, to do things Jesus did: feed the hungry, heal people, provide education, lift people out of poverty, that sort of thing. I didn't want to pay some pastor's salary so they could preach boring sermons week after week.
Part of the reason I don’t go to church is that if I went, I would feel obligated to support the church financially (which I think is only fair if I were to participate in the activities a church offers), but I don’t want to move my “tithe” away from other causes.
I'm okay with paying the pastor's salary, because if you want a pastor who is putting in full-time work for you (and many of them put in even more than that), you need to compensate them for their time and work. But you do have to consider whether the pastor's salary is reasonable or if they are being unreasonably enriched, and of course the bulk of the church's resources should be going toward the church's work serving the community. I definitely think it's good to check out a church's budget before you join it if possible, just to see how they prioritize their spending. It's kind of like charities. It's fine if they people who work full-time for the charity are being paid an income, but the majority of the money the charity takes in should be going toward the charitable work, not the paychecks at the top.
I no longer tithe or donate to any church, but I donate to the local homeless shelter and the local food bank, and bigger charities like Habitat for Humanity. There is still good that money can do in the community. It doesn't have to be done through a church, and certainly not one that will enrich an individual as part of the process.
Here’s the thing: people who were NOT raised in Christian evangelical/fundamentalist communities cannot understand how powerful these messages from religious leaders are and how difficult it can be to think critically about them. Many struggle with anxiety, guilt, fear, shame, etc. with even the thought of criticizing these leaders of the faith. Those standing on the outside will raise their eyebrows at how outlandish much of the messages are, but those inside very much see these leaders as men/women of God and look to them as real influences on how to live a pious life.
I can't agree more. I stayed for years even though something didn't feel right but the guilt. There was so much guilt. Guilt for questioning and not believing. Guilt for voicing concerns. Guilt for finally leaving. These people appeared to be speaking for God and to want what's best for the person. "Give x% and you will be blessed."
@@lalakuma9 evangelical/fundamentalist Born-Again Christian, Baptist, Pentecostal perspectives are generally different from Catholic ones, hence my original post that those who weren’t raised in these circles cannot understand the culture or ethos. You being confused at my comment proves my point lol :)
I was in the church regularly till age 6 and occasionlly till age 11.. Didn't find quitting hard at all. I asked so many question in Sunday school that required logical and factual answers that the sunday school teached couldn't provide she got very frustrated with me and i got kicked out. One of the best things that happened and Im so proud of myself for sticking reason instead of just blindly believing. My parents quit the church very shortly after as they were already kinda growing restless and distant. I'm now a healthy and happy Aitheist. :) It was harder to quit diet pop than it wad to quit church. 🤣 But I can understand that some people with very different personalities who may find it difficult to quit I guess, especially if they grow up in the church, marry in the church and are raising kids in the church.. where it's such a huge part of their life, community and personality.. must be hard.
@@lalakuma9 So I was raised Catholic my mom was raised baptist, but she never really stayed with the church and went to Catholic Church with the rest of us. I went until I was about 12 I'm not a fan of religion and I think part of that is seeing how my moms sisters were. One aunt was completely taken in by that life and she was nice enough growing up, but had a savior mentality and ended up letting my cousin, her niece, that ran away from our other aunt live with her and it just sent a fissure into the family. But regardless of that understanding I think some people are just not very likely to fall into these religious sects because of skepticism more so than anything else and being raised Catholic I definitely had that. Sunday school was a trip "how'd he get every animal on the ark?" my teacher "God helped" me being a dickhead kid "that makes no sense".
I think a big reason why these scams persist in these churches is because participating in religion requires you to be very emotionally vulnerable. That vulnerability makes you an easy target for exploitation. It makes me sick and it’s antithetical to the teachings of the Gospel.
I have been grappling with this lately. Participation requires lots of time and money. Is that what God requires? God is the richest overall so why do we need to give humans money to have a relationship with him? 🤔
@@SimplisticallyDigital because ALL of religion is a scam and gibberish built on control of the weak, poor and struggling to be preyed upon those stronger and with power.
I mean, there is another big reason. I know I’m about to sound like a douchy atheist but I gotta say it. Religious people will believe in all sorts of goofy shit that violates logic and reason, is it really that hard to convince someone who already believes a bearded man on a cloud rules the universe to give their money to a dubious cause? Especially if that person is using their religion to justify it.
I have been a minister myself, but I’m not now, and I’m not sure if I will be again or not. I listen to TFD a lot, because I appreciate the successful female perspective that I haven’t been exposed to much in the past. I wanted to add that I think the only religious groups (churches, mosques, etc.) that should be taxed are the large ones. Most small town churches in small town America (that are not preaching prosperity gospel and doing good things) could not remain open if they were taxed. I’m the small town pastor type, devout but not hugely charismatic, and there just aren’t enough pastoral positions to support my family of four.
A friend of mine got pulled into a televangelist with 9 homes, lots of cars, sold each book of the Bible on its own. Her mother in law found this guy at 2am, when she couldn't sleep. She was convinced he really was the Word of God and they put so much money they did not have, into this guy. She even bought gold when she could and had it in a safe in her apartment. Two huge problems she couldn't address. 1) if you can't eat it at end times, what value does gold have? 2) someone could just grab her safe, easily, and rig it open later... it wasn't a massive thing put into the walls. Sigh!
I recommend BLESSED:A History of The American Prosperity Gospel, by Dr. Kate Bowler of Duke University. She deals with megachurches as well as storefront gatherings.
So many great points brought up in this video! Thank you for exposing the lies and inconsistencies of the prosperity gospel. Also, I love Two Cents! It's so cool to hear Julia on this podcast.
I'm a Christian and find the prosperity gospel so diametrically opposing to the teachings of Christ. I find that a lot of these communities are more akind to cults. I would say that historically speaking the church and money isnt anything new. Before the Restoration, the medieval English church was very rich and powerful because if you were about to go on a holy crusade you could pay your local monks to pray for your soul so you could get too Heaven and not worry too much about the whole killing is a sin.
How do the Prosperity Gospel teachings address the fact that many (probably the majority) of the world's wealthiest people are of faiths other than Evangelical Christianity, or may even have no religion at all?
The segment of American evangelicalism which preaches a "prosperity gospel" (especially the megachurches) doesn't look outside the U.S., doesn't know church history, and doesn't look very closely at the church inside the U.S. It literally cannot see people who don't fit the narrative.
This was amazing. Good on you Julia for giving you tithe in the form of tips and generosity. That is the real tithing in the Bible anyway. I left the church four years ago and paying my tithes diligently is the one ritual I regret the most.
This was… so much. I really appreciate the acknowledgment that there’s a “spectrum” of belief within Christianity and while these may not actually be even the majority of the beliefs they’re certainly the loudest. I do just want to provide some views on tithing in a non-mega church environment (and I’m gonna come at this from a Southern Baptist Perspective). So, the word “tithe” means “tenth” and the Bible is very clear that you should tithe. The only money your church gets is from members who tithe. That’s how your church budgets and most churches work with the 80/20 rule (80% of the congregation isn’t tithing). Here’s what my church uses tithe for: salaries (We have 4 pastors, most of them have an assistant, a preschool director and a children’s church director, full and part time support staff, some of our childcare providers are paid hourly, maintenance team, etc), utilities/upkeep of the church, licensing for music, festivals/community events (some things are donated by local businesses), we support a few local and foreign missionaries who rely on that money for living expenses, insurance, general office supplies, and the list kinda goes on. There’s nothing insidious in those financials and we (like most churches) have quarterly business meetings. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect my pastoral staff to work for free. But the church doesn’t charge the congregation to hear sermons or be visited in the hospital. I think it’s even free for members to use the sanctuary and fellowship halls for their weddings. If you see value in the church then you have to support it financially. How else do the lights stay on?
I agree. To some extent, a church with property and staff has to use some of its tithes to support those things. Building maintenance and upkeep can get very expensive, but you have to pay it if you want to keep having a building to use for church and community activities. And church staff deserve to be compensated for the work they're putting in on behalf of the congregation. That money has to come from somewhere.
This is great. I grew up the daughter of atheists and never experienced this, but I see how Dave Ramsey lies to his audience and doesn’t offer real solutions.
I’m surprised you didn’t touch on the scripture where God says “touch not my anointed” which is weaponized within the Faith community in order to hush dissent.
Love these conversations but really find it jarring when they break up these in story interviews into so many pieces throughout the piece. Wish we had the opportunity to listen to a string of thoughts from the interview subjects if they’re going to be included instead of having two segments interrupting each other. Just a thought. Keep up the otherwise great work!
Different but nice- love 2 Cents and not only watch their stuff recreationally but also seen them used in job training for financial institutions! Per tithing, while charitable donating is honorable and ideally everyone would be in a place to give generously to worthy causes, in Biblical times it was actually more of a tax. Ancient Israel was a theocracy so tithing to the temple wasn't just a matter of philanthropy but supporting that system. It paid the priests/judges/others and maintained the sacred space but also was redistributed as seen fit. When Jesse, David's father, is listed as bringing all sorts of food and supplies to the army camp, that again wasn't charity but him being obligated to support his state. So to insist parishioners tithe when they already pay taxes is antithetical. Especially as some churches won't keep ppl on as members without it (the LDS church is big on this but others do whether officially or not, often with lots of guilt trips and other manipulation). In any case this needs to be kept in mind when we discuss tax exemption status (which deserves more scrutiny) and the separation of church and state.
Can the description be edited to include the webpage for this podcast? I can't find it on my personal podcast app because there are too many with the same name but I'd happy to subscribe to the RSS if someone can direct me to it.
@@stefflores Oh, based on "Welcome to our all-new podcast series Too Good To Be True", I thought that meant 'Too Good to Be True' is its own podcast, but because of your note, I did check the TFC feed and see it there. Have you seen any information on how long this series will be going on? Will the TFC be going back to the Cheslea-interviews-people format after this or will it be a feed of different short term series? etc?
Hi! Too Good To Be True is a 9-part miniseries dropping every Monday in The Financial Confessions feed on your preferred streaming platform: thefinancialdiet.podbean.com/ The Financial Confessions will be back on Monday, November 7th!
Hi! Too Good To Be True is a 9-part miniseries dropping every Monday in The Financial Confessions feed on your preferred streaming platform: thefinancialdiet.podbean.com/ The Financial Confessions will be back on Monday, November 7th!
I’m a born again evangelical Christian that belongs to a small local independent church in PA. It’s not Christian’s, it’s “Christian” corporations and mega churches.
@@kimberlygonzalez3148 indeed. But that sort of teaching becomes normalized when the big churches are pushing it, their pastors write the books which are readily available to us, and they seek media attention. We've felt the impacts in Canada as well, even though the SBC doesn't really exist here.
"I have been Ryan Houlihan" and "I have been Julia Lorenz-Olson." Okay, then who are you now?? Jokes aside, this was really informative and fascinating.
I LOVE you both but the mic on Julia is uneven perhaps? Everyone else including Ryan is easy to hear, but I have my volume up on max and miss a lot of what Julia says--which I hate! Please know it's just because I love you all and don't want to miss a word!
There will always be those who produce more and those that produce less. Wages are a construct that imperfectly represent production. Charity is just voluntary redistribution of production. Even if an employer voluntarily shared all profits equally with all employees regardless of production, some employees would have greater needs or be from less productive companies, and charity would still be needed.
@@DeniseSkidmore Or you have a government that provides a safety net so that people aren't desperately poor and help isn't based on the whims of the wealthy
I don't see tithing as the same as prosperity gospel. Regular giving is part of worship. I've always belonged to churches that spread that money out among many ministries, our leadership lives modest lives. The 10% is suggested, but amounts from "as you may prosper" to "all you have" are praised. Giving as God calls you with a cheerful heart is a good thing. Prosperity gospel is problematic in why you should give, not how much. If the pastor is flashing his wealth or telling me I could be wealthy too I'm going elsewhere with my tithe, to somewhere that will use it to feed the poor and preach the gospel around the world.
Evangelical Christianity's grift isn't new. The prosperity gospel and the American dream have been at the root of the US since Puritans (which originated with Calvinists) arrived from England. It may not be overt but it's intertwined in all of our history and especially in Conservatism. It feels like you could have done a better job setting that up and defining it. Really going into the history of this.
In many "branches" of evangelism people actually own 10% of their income to their church, if that doesn't seem fishy enough to someone from the get go,I don't know what does
I had no idea Julia is an evangelical... tbh a bit of a turn off for me personally (I'm Atheist) but Im open minded enough to respect her as a fellow human, and think her TH-cam channel "2 cents" is cool, I watched it lots when i was trying to get better with money and still re watch some episodes (I just wish there was a bit more Canadian specific content on it cause Im Canadian, so some of the stuff is different hut I would say 75-90% their advice still applies) highly recommend! As for the actual content of this podcast... my mind is completely blown I had no odea this evangelican prosterity gospel was a thing.. or at least as big of a thing as it actually is! I heard about Joel and the gang.. but never paid much attention because I find the entire notion of organized religion quite disturbing...very culty... so I just stay as far away from it as I can. My parents used to be regular church goers dad started as a young teen (his granny brough him into baptist church) and mom at 18 when she met him when he was 19...they got married quick and had me when they were age 20 and 21. We would go to church up till i was about 6. It was a Baptist church and being rich was practically frowned upon.. it was all about austerity, stoisism, deprivation. The church was bare.. no decor or any indication of wealth at all..my mom was even told to not wear her gold earings! We left our home country and after much imigration bs... landed in Canada.. we found a church in our language and occasionaly attended till i was 10 y.o. at which point I litteraly got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions that couldn't be answered with facts and after that I refused go to church altogether, my parents abandoned this occasional practice as well. That last church they went to I think was kinda starting to preach the prosperity gospel and they found it very strange... but by that point they had given up on this whole evangelical movement and decided to leave.. by that point I was 11 and VERY vocal about being against organized religion... My younger siblings (8 and 10 years younger than me) didn't have to deal with all this cause they were still too young to remember). I kinda pride myself on saving them from the brainwashing. Anyways, all that being said I'm glad someone like Julia (who doesn't seem like some evangelical nut job) did this show and adressed the prosperity gospel issue.. because as I now realize it is a way bigger issue than I though it was.. so it needs to be talked about.. from the sounds of it (in part 2 of the podcast) it is slowly spreading and is now permiating into the general American culture through politics and Capitalism... which is alarming to say the least. I'm a Canadian and concered that it may rub off on our culture because the American culture is so widespread and you guys are 10x the population and economy than we are so you dominate North American culture, and a lot of the world (for now anyways). As for Dave Ramsey... I stumbled on his channel a while back when i was trying to get serious about getting out of debt... and he is a fanatic.. cult leader...crazy (but very smart) person. I though he was just a boomer trying to "preach" the "bootstraping phylosophy". I watched him for a bit trying to psych myself up to getting out of debt but grew tired of his berating and abusing people on the air...and that was before i know what a disgusting, sexist, mysoginistic bigot he is. When I found out he fired a female employee because she was pregnant out of wedlock. I'm sorry... but NO! That was more than enough for me to never watch, listen or read anything by him or his company again. Absolutely disgusting, especially in the 21st century! I almost lost it when i just heard that his right hand man was caught cheating?! LMAO. Hilarious (not for his wife of course) but the audacity and hypocrisy is astounding. Great show you guys!.. gonna go find you on Spotify..
Sounds like you should edit your post.. for exevangelicals or someone who used to go to church and speaks against the hurtful practices now it's offensive to still be labeled as an evangelical and be seen as a "turn off" when they clearly don't associate with that identity and lifestyle anymore
Joel Osteen is a hero on mine.. really conveying biblical principles... a little disappointed to see him portrayed in the cover .. I don't like this version of TFD?
Great content but please be aware how annoying saying ‘you know’ three times in any sentences is, as it interrupts the train of thought… the listener has to slog through the conversation.
Lol well if you gave that ten percent of your salary to an investment account your entire working life, there is a good chance you will be taken care off.
Not really a fan of this side of TFD. Been an evangelical Christian my whole life and have been deeply involved in church since birth. I’ve never meant anyone who’s supported Prosperity Gospel. I honestly have a lot problems with how Christianity and evangelicalism is portrayed in this episode and I think it is sympathetic with how the channel blends their political/worldview with their financial advice which I don’t think benefits the channel. It makes me feel unwelcome in the space this channel provides and doesn’t really speak to good financial wisdom.
The Prosperity Gospel is ubiquitous in the South. I would know, I was raised up in it by Evangelicals in Texas. It's insidious and it's growing. If calling out the bad behavior of a growing religious movement makes you feel unwelcome, perhaps this isn't the space for you?
Thanks for the reply Elisabeth I appreciate it. I can’t speak for the South since I’ve only lived west of the Rockies. I can just speak for my life where I’ve know people in the church opposing it throughout the world. So I just don’t like it when prosperity gospel and evangelicalism are used interchangeably which is what I feel happens a lot in this video. Because I like the channel and appreciate much of what they do I want to encourage them but also want to create negative feedback when they offend me. Since my faith is important to me then crossing that line can be very hurtful. If that means I should leave well I appreciate everything that Chelsea and the team have helped me with and will leave for more welcoming territory.
Thanks once again though Elisabeth for reading my original post. I appreciate and agree with you that PG is gross, insidious and bad. Once again just don’t like other churches being linked to it.
Mr. Osteen has positive messages - they have been criticized for being generically positive rather than Christian. (I merely note the criticism exists - I haven't evaluated it myself.)
Former pastor here. Thank you for this. I’ve lived in a parsonage, actually. Most churches have fewer than 150 members now, and the only way they can afford a pastor, even part time, is by offering them a place to live. My congregation had about 40 people in it. I was not in poverty, but I was not in extreme wealth. My salary, added to the fair market value of the parsonage meant that I made about the same as the average of the individuals in my church made. I worked hard-well over 50 hours a week, was there at death beds, hospital visits, community meetings. Did all the sermons, funerals, emergencies for church members and community members who might call, pastoral counseling, pre-marital counseling, etc. We did coat drives in the winter, had a food pantry, provided emergency funds to pay for people’s utility bills, paid for kids’ school lunch bills when their parents couldn’t. I officiated gay and straight weddings, we stood up for equity when we had the opportunity, and worked on ourselves and our own prejudices and assumptions. I say this not to toot my own horn, but to make it clear that there are lots of tiny churches that work to offer care and justice to the communities they inhabit. While I got out of the ministry because it was too demanding for me, physically and emotionally, I just wanted your listeners to be aware of the reality in most congregations out there. These prosperity gospel people are wrecking the faith for everyone. I despise them. While I get the desire to tax them, that also means that their seat at the political table becomes legitimised, and that the rest of us agree there should be no separation of church and state. What if we treated them just like any other 501c3? They cannot maintain their nonprofit status if they continue to engage in self-dealing. I know-there are issues with this idea, unfortunately, but, yeesh. I wish we could rein them in somehow, These awful people . . .
I know. I experienced such a church when I moved but they are getting fewer by the day. The congregants are flocking to these cults of personality and they are able to attract the youth with their media savvy methods. They saw the Catholic church and said hold my anointing horn.
Yes, I'm friends with my vicar. The vicarage is a reasonably large 4 bedroom house. It's nice, but it's not huge or ostentatious. It was built to be a sensible size for someone with a growing family.
Like you, he is a lovely person who follows the example of Christ. He works quite closely with drug users and the church runs a centre for asylum seekers and refugees.
I am religious. From my imperfect and human understanding of the teachings of Christ, he preached helping those in need and doing what you can to alleviate suffering. Gaining personal wealth isn't the point.
Thank you for sharing. I have a very similar experience as you. So many people are looking at the large churches with deserving judgement, not understanding that there are soooo many more small struggling churches out there doing good work.
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As an Atheist and someone who is against organized religion as a concept in general..because of all the historical damage it has done (especially to women) as well as the sexism and homophobia and other issues that are still very much alive in the church today in general (with the exeption of some specific churches who are very progressive in these issues)... I want to THANK YOU for all that you have done for your community as a leader of a small church. I wish there were more people like you in the world. I'm very much about community, people helping each other... people helping those less fortunate than they are, the sick, the poor and anyone who is just struggling with a chapter in their life. If there is anyone who can help in the community, they should. Just as a fellow human being... nothing to do with religion (for me anyways). I really like the saying "If you need the fear of hell to make you a good person then you weren't a good person to begin with." This applies to everything in life... from helping people in need, to marriage fidelity, to crime, to paying the taxes one should. And everything in between. If people don't have a moral compass no church will really change them. Especially not a giant church in which to see the pastor you need binoculars or a giant screen. That sounds more like a convention than a community organization.
I wish that there were no mega churches the size of a stadiums... and instead smaller churches such as yours. So much more personal, people helping their local community.. makes the community stronger on a micro level. Which is what we as a society should be striving for on the macro level.
I think that the bigger the church the more money it makes the more it should be taxed and the taxes should go to smaller community organizarions (non profits especially) to help people on a more local community level, even small churches such as yours.
I grew up Australian evangelical (which is VERY different to American Evangelical) and I was shocked when I discovered that people actively preach the tithe should go to the church. I always thought the tithe was 10% to go to God, in other words, to do things Jesus did: feed the hungry, heal people, provide education, lift people out of poverty, that sort of thing. I didn't want to pay some pastor's salary so they could preach boring sermons week after week.
Part of the reason I don’t go to church is that if I went, I would feel obligated to support the church financially (which I think is only fair if I were to participate in the activities a church offers), but I don’t want to move my “tithe” away from other causes.
I like your version of tithing. Put the money someplace where it can actually do some good.
I'm okay with paying the pastor's salary, because if you want a pastor who is putting in full-time work for you (and many of them put in even more than that), you need to compensate them for their time and work. But you do have to consider whether the pastor's salary is reasonable or if they are being unreasonably enriched, and of course the bulk of the church's resources should be going toward the church's work serving the community. I definitely think it's good to check out a church's budget before you join it if possible, just to see how they prioritize their spending. It's kind of like charities. It's fine if they people who work full-time for the charity are being paid an income, but the majority of the money the charity takes in should be going toward the charitable work, not the paychecks at the top.
So pastors should work for free?
@@rebekahkingbello9560 maybe not for free but I've been to a lot of churches and the pastoral salary was never transparent..makes you wonder.
I no longer tithe or donate to any church, but I donate to the local homeless shelter and the local food bank, and bigger charities like Habitat for Humanity. There is still good that money can do in the community. It doesn't have to be done through a church, and certainly not one that will enrich an individual as part of the process.
Here’s the thing: people who were NOT raised in Christian evangelical/fundamentalist communities cannot understand how powerful these messages from religious leaders are and how difficult it can be to think critically about them. Many struggle with anxiety, guilt, fear, shame, etc. with even the thought of criticizing these leaders of the faith. Those standing on the outside will raise their eyebrows at how outlandish much of the messages are, but those inside very much see these leaders as men/women of God and look to them as real influences on how to live a pious life.
I can't agree more. I stayed for years even though something didn't feel right but the guilt. There was so much guilt. Guilt for questioning and not believing. Guilt for voicing concerns. Guilt for finally leaving. These people appeared to be speaking for God and to want what's best for the person. "Give x% and you will be blessed."
I was raised Catholic and this confuses me because the prosperity gospel sounds like the complete opposite of what Catholicism is saying.
@@lalakuma9 evangelical/fundamentalist Born-Again Christian, Baptist, Pentecostal perspectives are generally different from Catholic ones, hence my original post that those who weren’t raised in these circles cannot understand the culture or ethos. You being confused at my comment proves my point lol :)
I was in the church regularly till age 6 and occasionlly till age 11..
Didn't find quitting hard at all. I asked so many question in Sunday school that required logical and factual answers that the sunday school teached couldn't provide she got very frustrated with me and i got kicked out. One of the best things that happened and Im so proud of myself for sticking reason instead of just blindly believing. My parents quit the church very shortly after as they were already kinda growing restless and distant.
I'm now a healthy and happy Aitheist. :)
It was harder to quit diet pop than it wad to quit church. 🤣
But I can understand that some people with very different personalities who may find it difficult to quit I guess, especially if they grow up in the church, marry in the church and are raising kids in the church.. where it's such a huge part of their life, community and personality.. must be hard.
@@lalakuma9 So I was raised Catholic my mom was raised baptist, but she never really stayed with the church and went to Catholic Church with the rest of us. I went until I was about 12 I'm not a fan of religion and I think part of that is seeing how my moms sisters were. One aunt was completely taken in by that life and she was nice enough growing up, but had a savior mentality and ended up letting my cousin, her niece, that ran away from our other aunt live with her and it just sent a fissure into the family. But regardless of that understanding I think some people are just not very likely to fall into these religious sects because of skepticism more so than anything else and being raised Catholic I definitely had that. Sunday school was a trip "how'd he get every animal on the ark?" my teacher "God helped" me being a dickhead kid "that makes no sense".
I think a big reason why these scams persist in these churches is because participating in religion requires you to be very emotionally vulnerable. That vulnerability makes you an easy target for exploitation. It makes me sick and it’s antithetical to the teachings of the Gospel.
I have been grappling with this lately. Participation requires lots of time and money. Is that what God requires? God is the richest overall so why do we need to give humans money to have a relationship with him? 🤔
@@SimplisticallyDigital because ALL of religion is a scam and gibberish built on control of the weak, poor and struggling to be preyed upon those stronger and with power.
I mean, there is another big reason. I know I’m about to sound like a douchy atheist but I gotta say it. Religious people will believe in all sorts of goofy shit that violates logic and reason, is it really that hard to convince someone who already believes a bearded man on a cloud rules the universe to give their money to a dubious cause? Especially if that person is using their religion to justify it.
40 minutes not just part 1 but part 2!? You’re so good to us
Right? What a delightfully thoughtful gift on a Monday morning
I have been a minister myself, but I’m not now, and I’m not sure if I will be again or not. I listen to TFD a lot, because I appreciate the successful female perspective that I haven’t been exposed to much in the past.
I wanted to add that I think the only religious groups (churches, mosques, etc.) that should be taxed are the large ones. Most small town churches in small town America (that are not preaching prosperity gospel and doing good things) could not remain open if they were taxed. I’m the small town pastor type, devout but not hugely charismatic, and there just aren’t enough pastoral positions to support my family of four.
If taxing closes more that is the best thing ever. Religion is all absolute bunk it does offer a sense of community but one of very few values.
I was waiting for you to mention the hero of Hurricane Harvey, Mattress Mack, who sheltered people in his giant furniture stores. He walked the walk.
A friend of mine got pulled into a televangelist with 9 homes, lots of cars, sold each book of the Bible on its own. Her mother in law found this guy at 2am, when she couldn't sleep. She was convinced he really was the Word of God and they put so much money they did not have, into this guy. She even bought gold when she could and had it in a safe in her apartment. Two huge problems she couldn't address. 1) if you can't eat it at end times, what value does gold have? 2) someone could just grab her safe, easily, and rig it open later... it wasn't a massive thing put into the walls. Sigh!
My two favorite finance channels, and one of my favorite subjects! So excited to listen in!
I recommend BLESSED:A History of The American Prosperity Gospel, by Dr. Kate Bowler of Duke University. She deals with megachurches as well as storefront gatherings.
Been waiting for this! I once went to a church that was scammed by a traveling preacher who took $$$$$ and ran, even leaving his wife in the process.
So many great points brought up in this video! Thank you for exposing the lies and inconsistencies of the prosperity gospel. Also, I love Two Cents! It's so cool to hear Julia on this podcast.
There is nothing wrong with tithing. But tithe to those who deserve it. Mega churches do not need your money. Period.
I'm a Christian and find the prosperity gospel so diametrically opposing to the teachings of Christ. I find that a lot of these communities are more akind to cults.
I would say that historically speaking the church and money isnt anything new. Before the Restoration, the medieval English church was very rich and powerful because if you were about to go on a holy crusade you could pay your local monks to pray for your soul so you could get too Heaven and not worry too much about the whole killing is a sin.
How do the Prosperity Gospel teachings address the fact that many (probably the majority) of the world's wealthiest people are of faiths other than Evangelical Christianity, or may even have no religion at all?
The segment of American evangelicalism which preaches a "prosperity gospel" (especially the megachurches) doesn't look outside the U.S., doesn't know church history, and doesn't look very closely at the church inside the U.S.
It literally cannot see people who don't fit the narrative.
@@jefftitterington7600 One trip to Silicon Valley would set them straight. All that tech money sure didn't come from God.😆
Prosperity gospel isn't really concerned with the truth.
This was amazing. Good on you Julia for giving you tithe in the form of tips and generosity. That is the real tithing in the Bible anyway. I left the church four years ago and paying my tithes diligently is the one ritual I regret the most.
This was… so much. I really appreciate the acknowledgment that there’s a “spectrum” of belief within Christianity and while these may not actually be even the majority of the beliefs they’re certainly the loudest.
I do just want to provide some views on tithing in a non-mega church environment (and I’m gonna come at this from a Southern Baptist Perspective). So, the word “tithe” means “tenth” and the Bible is very clear that you should tithe. The only money your church gets is from members who tithe. That’s how your church budgets and most churches work with the 80/20 rule (80% of the congregation isn’t tithing). Here’s what my church uses tithe for: salaries (We have 4 pastors, most of them have an assistant, a preschool director and a children’s church director, full and part time support staff, some of our childcare providers are paid hourly, maintenance team, etc), utilities/upkeep of the church, licensing for music, festivals/community events (some things are donated by local businesses), we support a few local and foreign missionaries who rely on that money for living expenses, insurance, general office supplies, and the list kinda goes on. There’s nothing insidious in those financials and we (like most churches) have quarterly business meetings. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect my pastoral staff to work for free. But the church doesn’t charge the congregation to hear sermons or be visited in the hospital. I think it’s even free for members to use the sanctuary and fellowship halls for their weddings. If you see value in the church then you have to support it financially. How else do the lights stay on?
I agree. To some extent, a church with property and staff has to use some of its tithes to support those things. Building maintenance and upkeep can get very expensive, but you have to pay it if you want to keep having a building to use for church and community activities. And church staff deserve to be compensated for the work they're putting in on behalf of the congregation. That money has to come from somewhere.
This is great. I grew up the daughter of atheists and never experienced this, but I see how Dave Ramsey lies to his audience and doesn’t offer real solutions.
Dave Ramsey is a political hack first before being a financial adviser. I even despise his religious preaching.
I’m surprised you didn’t touch on the scripture where God says “touch not my anointed” which is weaponized within the Faith community in order to hush dissent.
Love these conversations but really find it jarring when they break up these in story interviews into so many pieces throughout the piece. Wish we had the opportunity to listen to a string of thoughts from the interview subjects if they’re going to be included instead of having two segments interrupting each other. Just a thought. Keep up the otherwise great work!
Different but nice- love 2 Cents and not only watch their stuff recreationally but also seen them used in job training for financial institutions!
Per tithing, while charitable donating is honorable and ideally everyone would be in a place to give generously to worthy causes, in Biblical times it was actually more of a tax. Ancient Israel was a theocracy so tithing to the temple wasn't just a matter of philanthropy but supporting that system. It paid the priests/judges/others and maintained the sacred space but also was redistributed as seen fit. When Jesse, David's father, is listed as bringing all sorts of food and supplies to the army camp, that again wasn't charity but him being obligated to support his state. So to insist parishioners tithe when they already pay taxes is antithetical. Especially as some churches won't keep ppl on as members without it (the LDS church is big on this but others do whether officially or not, often with lots of guilt trips and other manipulation). In any case this needs to be kept in mind when we discuss tax exemption status (which deserves more scrutiny) and the separation of church and state.
Such a wonderful surprise to find Julia here on TFD!
Starts at 1:00. Skip ad at 25:55
Can the description be edited to include the webpage for this podcast? I can't find it on my personal podcast app because there are too many with the same name but I'd happy to subscribe to the RSS if someone can direct me to it.
This is the financial confessions podcast
@@stefflores Oh, based on "Welcome to our all-new podcast series Too Good To Be True", I thought that meant 'Too Good to Be True' is its own podcast, but because of your note, I did check the TFC feed and see it there. Have you seen any information on how long this series will be going on? Will the TFC be going back to the Cheslea-interviews-people format after this or will it be a feed of different short term series? etc?
@@NervousVlogmathster that, I do not know. This kinda came out of the blue.
Hi! Too Good To Be True is a 9-part miniseries dropping every Monday in The Financial Confessions feed on your preferred streaming platform: thefinancialdiet.podbean.com/ The Financial Confessions will be back on Monday, November 7th!
I can’t find this in podcasts, will it be a youtube account?
I see a Too Good to be True podcast about bank scams by someone else, where is yours?
This is the financial confessions podcast.
@@stefflores thanks, I thought this also was a separate podcast, too.
Hi! Too Good To Be True is a 9-part miniseries dropping every Monday in The Financial Confessions feed on your preferred streaming platform: thefinancialdiet.podbean.com/ The Financial Confessions will be back on Monday, November 7th!
I wonder how much of the Kardashians bases their worldview on the prosperity gospel and why they choose some more unethical business ventures.
Parts 1 and 2 all in one day? God bless TFD
Having been raised fundie this hits HARD
I’m a born again evangelical Christian that belongs to a small local independent church in PA. It’s not Christian’s, it’s “Christian” corporations and mega churches.
Absolutely agree. However, I was in a small church and they definitely prioritized money and were very transactional.
@@kimberlygonzalez3148 indeed. But that sort of teaching becomes normalized when the big churches are pushing it, their pastors write the books which are readily available to us, and they seek media attention.
We've felt the impacts in Canada as well, even though the SBC doesn't really exist here.
"I have been Ryan Houlihan" and "I have been Julia Lorenz-Olson." Okay, then who are you now?? Jokes aside, this was really informative and fascinating.
This took way too long to get into the actual topic 😕
I LOVE you both but the mic on Julia is uneven perhaps? Everyone else including Ryan is easy to hear, but I have my volume up on max and miss a lot of what Julia says--which I hate! Please know it's just because I love you all and don't want to miss a word!
Charity is a sign of inequity in a society.
There will always be those who produce more and those that produce less. Wages are a construct that imperfectly represent production. Charity is just voluntary redistribution of production. Even if an employer voluntarily shared all profits equally with all employees regardless of production, some employees would have greater needs or be from less productive companies, and charity would still be needed.
@@DeniseSkidmore Or you have a government that provides a safety net so that people aren't desperately poor and help isn't based on the whims of the wealthy
Yes! TFD!
I found so many parallels between me and Lindsey Leaverton and even Julia, I actually went back to find her name
Tbh this was hard to follow and a bit messy.
Also the audio was all over the place. Made it difficult to listen to constantly adjusting the volume. Couldn't hear certain parts of conversation.
Omg what a crossover!!
Nice episode
I don't see tithing as the same as prosperity gospel. Regular giving is part of worship. I've always belonged to churches that spread that money out among many ministries, our leadership lives modest lives. The 10% is suggested, but amounts from "as you may prosper" to "all you have" are praised. Giving as God calls you with a cheerful heart is a good thing.
Prosperity gospel is problematic in why you should give, not how much. If the pastor is flashing his wealth or telling me I could be wealthy too I'm going elsewhere with my tithe, to somewhere that will use it to feed the poor and preach the gospel around the world.
Evangelical Christianity's grift isn't new. The prosperity gospel and the American dream have been at the root of the US since Puritans (which originated with Calvinists) arrived from England. It may not be overt but it's intertwined in all of our history and especially in Conservatism. It feels like you could have done a better job setting that up and defining it. Really going into the history of this.
And Jewish people would prefer you not use God's name in vain...Jehovah's Witnesses use that name of god.
It feels like two babies who have never learned about US History woke up and were like ugh this is bad but don't understand that history exists.
why do people say "I've been." We don't stop being. Is it just an industry thing?
Obsessed w this
What Mega Mansions ..wow wtf?
In many "branches" of evangelism people actually own 10% of their income to their church, if that doesn't seem fishy enough to someone from the get go,I don't know what does
I had no idea Julia is an evangelical... tbh a bit of a turn off for me personally (I'm Atheist) but Im open minded enough to respect her as a fellow human, and think her TH-cam channel "2 cents" is cool, I watched it lots when i was trying to get better with money and still re watch some episodes (I just wish there was a bit more Canadian specific content on it cause Im Canadian, so some of the stuff is different hut I would say 75-90% their advice still applies) highly recommend!
As for the actual content of this podcast... my mind is completely blown I had no odea this evangelican prosterity gospel was a thing.. or at least as big of a thing as it actually is! I heard about Joel and the gang.. but never paid much attention because I find the entire notion of organized religion quite disturbing...very culty... so I just stay as far away from it as I can. My parents used to be regular church goers dad started as a young teen (his granny brough him into baptist church) and mom at 18 when she met him when he was 19...they got married quick and had me when they were age 20 and 21. We would go to church up till i was about 6. It was a Baptist church and being rich was practically frowned upon.. it was all about austerity, stoisism, deprivation. The church was bare.. no decor or any indication of wealth at all..my mom was even told to not wear her gold earings!
We left our home country and after much imigration bs... landed in Canada.. we found a church in our language and occasionaly attended till i was 10 y.o. at which point I litteraly got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions that couldn't be answered with facts and after that I refused go to church altogether, my parents abandoned this occasional practice as well. That last church they went to I think was kinda starting to preach the prosperity gospel and they found it very strange... but by that point they had given up on this whole evangelical movement and decided to leave.. by that point I was 11 and VERY vocal about being against organized religion... My younger siblings (8 and 10 years younger than me) didn't have to deal with all this cause they were still too young to remember). I kinda pride myself on saving them from the brainwashing.
Anyways, all that being said I'm glad someone like Julia (who doesn't seem like some evangelical nut job) did this show and adressed the prosperity gospel issue.. because as I now realize it is a way bigger issue than I though it was.. so it needs to be talked about.. from the sounds of it (in part 2 of the podcast) it is slowly spreading and is now permiating into the general American culture through politics and Capitalism... which is alarming to say the least.
I'm a Canadian and concered that it may rub off on our culture because the American culture is so widespread and you guys are 10x the population and economy than we are so you dominate North American culture, and a lot of the world (for now anyways).
As for Dave Ramsey... I stumbled on his channel a while back when i was trying to get serious about getting out of debt... and he is a fanatic.. cult leader...crazy (but very smart) person. I though he was just a boomer trying to "preach" the "bootstraping phylosophy".
I watched him for a bit trying to psych myself up to getting out of debt but grew tired of his berating and abusing people on the air...and that was before i know what a disgusting, sexist, mysoginistic bigot he is.
When I found out he fired a female employee because she was pregnant out of wedlock. I'm sorry... but NO! That was more than enough for me to never watch, listen or read anything by him or his company again. Absolutely disgusting, especially in the 21st century! I almost lost it when i just heard that his right hand man was caught cheating?! LMAO. Hilarious (not for his wife of course) but the audacity and hypocrisy is astounding. Great show you guys!.. gonna go find you on Spotify..
In the beginning she said she used to be I understood it as she and her husband are no longer evangelical
Sounds like you should edit your post.. for exevangelicals or someone who used to go to church and speaks against the hurtful practices now it's offensive to still be labeled as an evangelical and be seen as a "turn off" when they clearly don't associate with that identity and lifestyle anymore
Joel Osteen is a hero on mine.. really conveying biblical principles... a little disappointed to see him portrayed in the cover .. I don't like this version of TFD?
Great content but please be aware how annoying saying ‘you know’ three times in any sentences is, as it interrupts the train of thought… the listener has to slog through the conversation.
Lol well if you gave that ten percent of your salary to an investment account your entire working life, there is a good chance you will be taken care off.
Not really a fan of this side of TFD. Been an evangelical Christian my whole life and have been deeply involved in church since birth. I’ve never meant anyone who’s supported Prosperity Gospel. I honestly have a lot problems with how Christianity and evangelicalism is portrayed in this episode and I think it is sympathetic with how the channel blends their political/worldview with their financial advice which I don’t think benefits the channel. It makes me feel unwelcome in the space this channel provides and doesn’t really speak to good financial wisdom.
The Prosperity Gospel is ubiquitous in the South. I would know, I was raised up in it by Evangelicals in Texas. It's insidious and it's growing. If calling out the bad behavior of a growing religious movement makes you feel unwelcome, perhaps this isn't the space for you?
Thanks for the reply Elisabeth I appreciate it. I can’t speak for the South since I’ve only lived west of the Rockies. I can just speak for my life where I’ve know people in the church opposing it throughout the world. So I just don’t like it when prosperity gospel and evangelicalism are used interchangeably which is what I feel happens a lot in this video. Because I like the channel and appreciate much of what they do I want to encourage them but also want to create negative feedback when they offend me. Since my faith is important to me then crossing that line can be very hurtful. If that means I should leave well I appreciate everything that Chelsea and the team have helped me with and will leave for more welcoming territory.
Thanks once again though Elisabeth for reading my original post. I appreciate and agree with you that PG is gross, insidious and bad. Once again just don’t like other churches being linked to it.
I totally agree William. Some of the generalizations of Christians in this episode are stereotypical caricatures.
There are evangelicals that despise and speak out against prosperity gospel. There is overlap but the two should not be conflated.
Joel's teachings are positive but this discussion is narrow to achieve a predetermined,negative outcome. But capitalism
Mr. Osteen has positive messages - they have been criticized for being generically positive rather than Christian. (I merely note the criticism exists - I haven't evaluated it myself.)
Not making us wait for parts!!! We don’t deserve TFD🤎