I have a different take on why it works but I appreciate this explanation because it is certainly true that the ski deep in the snow is adding yaw. Unfortunately it's in front so that yaw has limited authority. I believe everyone ignores the fact that the sled, in powder, is operating in 3D. It has not only yaw, but also roll and pitch. The weight shift of the rider is important. But just like a motorcycle what the coutersteer does is move the sled out from underneath you. The countersteer and weight shift now initiates a roll motion. As you find you can increase the turn by throttle applied at the proper time to unload the skis and thus increase pitch angle (through trenching) and increase roll rate through everything just happening faster. Go go death ride ;) It is this pitch and roll angle that turns you. Just like an aircraft. If it was the ski, you could countersteer, weight shift, and release the throttle and that would increase yaw as you increase load on the skis. But it's the opposite. --> Increase pitch, unload the skis, get that mass rolling in the correct direction, magic sharp turn. The snowmobile is climbing around a banked corner it has created by its roll and pitch angle. You can add your fore and aft CG change to make the sled do even more aggressive turns in addition to throttle work. This eventually leads to Bowties and other wacky moves.
Great points. Yaw right! I tried to keep it simple and only talk about the key role counter-steering plays in initiating these movements, but obviously there’s a whole lot of other stuff going on. The 3D aspect of riding pow is what makes it so intoxicating.
Completely agree with J M here. Counter steering causes the sled to move out from under the center of gravity initiating a roll about the longitudinal axis in the opposite direction. The track then takes over in the now banked turn made more aggressive about the vertical axis with throttle input. Still, I think it's about developing an understanding that allows the rider to accept and apply the strange concept of counter steering, so if you're description works for someone and gives them better access to the enjoyment of off trail riding, more power to you! Thanks for the thought provoking video.
@@campstrat Nice explanation. For new riders I might summarize it as drop the anchor and ride the bank. I find the anchor image seems to help people more with starting turns and the COM idea more with sidehills, even though I agree they’re both mainly about the COM. Still, if you can’t counter then none of this shit is happening no matter how you explain it. Cheers for the ideas.
@@campstrat Nice guitar playing, BTW. And is that you flying the Bell 206? If one of the brands could make their mountain sleds replicate that soul-stirring whop-whop sound during banked turns I would be their customer for life.
Awesome inside info. Been riding dirt bikes since 1974 and road bikes since 1978...countersteering has always been the inside secret to speed in the turns. Also, one rule of at least dirt (and mostly for street) is "when in doubt, pin it".
i am a "old" bikerider, counter steering is natural on my Yamaha R6 or my Husaberg FS650. but i never thought riding a snowmobile was SO similar to ride a bike, not entierly. i did see it another video. and i do see on the extreme snowmobile riders it looks very alike a bike rider. so i tride my self now that we had much much more snow and had deep powder snow in Sweden. And yes it was mindblowing. i applied some of my bike thinking and skill. and the sled where just going there i looked without thinking. I am still very novies as a sled rider. and i have to practise more and my throttle control needs to be improved. but what i can say is sense the day i understood it was very similar as bikeriding many things become easer and more flow in my riding. to add some context, i did ride for 3 years a Arctic Cat zr 440 with a 600cc EFI engien. low, flat wide toad. but this winter i upgraded to a Lynx Xterrain 600R and that is much narrower and taller. and you sit in a very different posision compare to my 20 year old Arctic Cat. so the Lynx is more suited for "bike like" riding. Counter steering on my Yamaha R6 makes the bike "fall in to" the corner i am turning in.
This was brilliantly done! Explaining the foundation like you did make perfect sense. God those penguins are nasty I have been their victim a few time in my snowmobiler career. No more. Now I understand.
Half the snowmobile enthusiasts out there do NOT know a thing about counter steering. It drives me nuts especially in the mountains. Heck anywhere actually 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😂😂😂. Very good explanation dude!!!!!
Cheers. Hope you saw the useful comments from a few other fellas with info on yaw, etc. But the bottom line is the same: no counter steer skill = no mountain riding.
Great explanations! I've always pictured counter steer on a sidehill as turning the skis downhill, so the track tries to go uphill. Probably against those pesky physics laws, but in my mind it's Einstein levels of physics study. You should come to Utah, there are place you go and be at least 10-15 minutes away from the nearest restaurant! Incredible!!
I live in the deepest countryside of Japan i.e. more than 200 meters from a convenience store. Still not sure I could handle Utah though, despite my extreme rural bravery.
Like #23. Great Job AJ. MINT! the animation of the "front of the left ski trying to drag you out that way"...that's what my 67 yr old buddy needs to see for this to make sense to him. Thanks. Umm, finally got him to do his first pin-n-wiggle it to get unstuck. [i talked him into a 154 summit instead of a 20 inch wide track, haha]
You have solved what is missing in my counter steering. PENGUIN FARTS! Jokes aside this video for some people like me might make learning counter steering easier then other big youtubers guides that are kind of a just watch this and copy this lol
What's funny though is that counter-steering really *doesnt* work on snowmobiles and you can see evidence of that in _every single_ "counter-steering" video. Look at where the skis point when everyone says 'and now I counter-steer' and they're literally steering the direction they want to go, not opposite. This video is full of examples. That's not counter-steering. Skis work like rudders, you steer left, you go left, you steer right you go right, not like a motorcycle where there's rotating forces you're counteracting. Plus, you don't just steer with the skis you steer with the skid and counter-weighting the sled. If you're trying to get your sled to go where you want by just turning the handlebars you likely won't end up where you want to be. You don't even have to counter-steer to get on edge. 4 years riding now and found out a long while ago that motorcycle-style counter-steering is not applicable to sleds; it's become common non-sense. Everyone "knows" that's how it's done, but doesn't really pay attention to what they're doing to realize that they're calling an apple an orange.
I have a different take on why it works but I appreciate this explanation because it is certainly true that the ski deep in the snow is adding yaw. Unfortunately it's in front so that yaw has limited authority.
I believe everyone ignores the fact that the sled, in powder, is operating in 3D. It has not only yaw, but also roll and pitch.
The weight shift of the rider is important. But just like a motorcycle what the coutersteer does is move the sled out from underneath you.
The countersteer and weight shift now initiates a roll motion.
As you find you can increase the turn by throttle applied at the proper time to unload the skis and thus increase pitch angle (through trenching) and increase roll rate through everything just happening faster. Go go death ride ;)
It is this pitch and roll angle that turns you. Just like an aircraft.
If it was the ski, you could countersteer, weight shift, and release the throttle and that would increase yaw as you increase load on the skis. But it's the opposite. --> Increase pitch, unload the skis, get that mass rolling in the correct direction, magic sharp turn.
The snowmobile is climbing around a banked corner it has created by its roll and pitch angle.
You can add your fore and aft CG change to make the sled do even more aggressive turns in addition to throttle work. This eventually leads to Bowties and other wacky moves.
Great points. Yaw right! I tried to keep it simple and only talk about the key role counter-steering plays in initiating these movements, but obviously there’s a whole lot of other stuff going on. The 3D aspect of riding pow is what makes it so intoxicating.
Completely agree with J M here. Counter steering causes the sled to move out from under the center of gravity initiating a roll about the longitudinal axis in the opposite direction. The track then takes over in the now banked turn made more aggressive about the vertical axis with throttle input. Still, I think it's about developing an understanding that allows the rider to accept and apply the strange concept of counter steering, so if you're description works for someone and gives them better access to the enjoyment of off trail riding, more power to you! Thanks for the thought provoking video.
@@campstrat Nice explanation. For new riders I might summarize it as drop the anchor and ride the bank. I find the anchor image seems to help people more with starting turns and the COM idea more with sidehills, even though I agree they’re both mainly about the COM. Still, if you can’t counter then none of this shit is happening no matter how you explain it. Cheers for the ideas.
@@campstrat Nice guitar playing, BTW. And is that you flying the Bell 206? If one of the brands could make their mountain sleds replicate that soul-stirring whop-whop sound during banked turns I would be their customer for life.
Awesome inside info. Been riding dirt bikes since 1974 and road bikes since 1978...countersteering has always been the inside secret to speed in the turns. Also, one rule of at least dirt (and mostly for street) is "when in doubt, pin it".
Cheers. Pin it is also a good rule on sleds. Except when it isn't.
This is such an awesome and needed explanation! Bravo!
i am a "old" bikerider, counter steering is natural on my Yamaha R6 or my Husaberg FS650. but i never thought riding a snowmobile was SO similar to ride a bike, not entierly. i did see it another video. and i do see on the extreme snowmobile riders it looks very alike a bike rider. so i tride my self now that we had much much more snow and had deep powder snow in Sweden. And yes it was mindblowing. i applied some of my bike thinking and skill. and the sled where just going there i looked without thinking. I am still very novies as a sled rider. and i have to practise more and my throttle control needs to be improved. but what i can say is sense the day i understood it was very similar as bikeriding many things become easer and more flow in my riding.
to add some context, i did ride for 3 years a Arctic Cat zr 440 with a 600cc EFI engien. low, flat wide toad. but this winter i upgraded to a Lynx Xterrain 600R and that is much narrower and taller. and you sit in a very different posision compare to my 20 year old Arctic Cat. so the Lynx is more suited for "bike like" riding.
Counter steering on my Yamaha R6 makes the bike "fall in to" the corner i am turning in.
This was brilliantly done! Explaining the foundation like you did make perfect sense. God those penguins are nasty I have been their victim a few time in my snowmobiler career. No more. Now I understand.
Bear spray also works on penguins.
@@AkatarawaJapan yes, but with negligible effects on the creek that hosts them. 😅
Half the snowmobile enthusiasts out there do NOT know a thing about counter steering. It drives me nuts especially in the mountains. Heck anywhere actually 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😂😂😂. Very good explanation dude!!!!!
Cheers. Hope you saw the useful comments from a few other fellas with info on yaw, etc. But the bottom line is the same: no counter steer skill = no mountain riding.
Great explanations! I've always pictured counter steer on a sidehill as turning the skis downhill, so the track tries to go uphill. Probably against those pesky physics laws, but in my mind it's Einstein levels of physics study.
You should come to Utah, there are place you go and be at least 10-15 minutes away from the nearest restaurant! Incredible!!
I live in the deepest countryside of Japan i.e. more than 200 meters from a convenience store. Still not sure I could handle Utah though, despite my extreme rural bravery.
I'll have to try it. Works on street bikes, a bit on MX.
Like #23. Great Job AJ. MINT! the animation of the "front of the left ski trying to drag you out that way"...that's what my 67 yr old buddy needs to see for this to make sense to him. Thanks. Umm, finally got him to do his first pin-n-wiggle it to get unstuck. [i talked him into a 154 summit instead of a 20 inch wide track, haha]
Now put him on a super narrow ski stance and watch him faceplant snow all day.
great video
You have solved what is missing in my counter steering. PENGUIN FARTS! Jokes aside this video for some people like me might make learning counter steering easier then other big youtubers guides that are kind of a just watch this and copy this lol
THEY don’t want you to know about penguin farts. But WE know the truth.
You actually can’t ride a bike, motored or not, without counter steering. It’s caused by gyroscopic precession.
What's funny though is that counter-steering really *doesnt* work on snowmobiles and you can see evidence of that in _every single_ "counter-steering" video. Look at where the skis point when everyone says 'and now I counter-steer' and they're literally steering the direction they want to go, not opposite. This video is full of examples. That's not counter-steering. Skis work like rudders, you steer left, you go left, you steer right you go right, not like a motorcycle where there's rotating forces you're counteracting. Plus, you don't just steer with the skis you steer with the skid and counter-weighting the sled. If you're trying to get your sled to go where you want by just turning the handlebars you likely won't end up where you want to be. You don't even have to counter-steer to get on edge. 4 years riding now and found out a long while ago that motorcycle-style counter-steering is not applicable to sleds; it's become common non-sense. Everyone "knows" that's how it's done, but doesn't really pay attention to what they're doing to realize that they're calling an apple an orange.
@@gymkhanadog No countersteer to initiate turn in the thumbnail or other clips throughout the vid?