I'm always honest about the intent of my decks. My burn deck is a Sunforger deck, it contains a two card combo. (Mostly to avoid a 30 minute storm turn.) There's nothing worse than a surprise turn 3-4 infinite combo win. Especially when it's unexpected. Turn Zero talk should always include play speed and win-con discussion.
On the subject of tutors, I used to run a Captain sisay deck, and it taught me that tutoring made the game less fun for me by encouraging me to run the same lines over and over. I play a 99 card Singleton format because I like variety in game play. As a result, I rarely put tutors in my decks now.
definitely a lesson you have to learn for yourself, I feel like people experience that feeling and then either realize they don't like tutors or go full cEDH loll
Appreciate the input about finishers. Craterhoof and ilk get a lot of crap due to being repetitive and boring (my words), but you said it best that there's a sweet spot when games should end. I feel like the times I get saltiest are when I don't get a chance to do my thing, or I'm trying to "prove" a new deck, so a lot of it just comes down to (like you said) expectations and a sort of balance for the flow of the game. When I know my deck is doing what it's supposed to I have no problems laughing at the incoming damage and removal.
Fast Mana: Lovin it! 95% of my EDH games involve fast mana Tutors: With great power comes great responsibility. Great people only need to tutor once. Stax: I think it is fine unless it has no win con. Finisher: I'm fine if it wins on the spot, we don't need no lingering deaths and long drawn out games. LOL I had a long lingering game recently due to my opponent countering my win con, getting stopped in turn... :P
My personal rule for finishers is one I call the omniscience rule basically your finisher shouldn't cost less than omniscience and if your finisher is a combo of multiple cards then it shouldn't cost less than omniscience plus one for every additional card because you can play them on other turns or two if a card is protected in some way.
What a strange rule. Why is this? Omniscience's mana cost is 10, right? What's so important about the win con being less than 10 mana? Why does your rule not let players enjoy 11+ mana cards (Eldrazi Gods?) I'm just confused on the intention of this rule. Kinda nonsensical.
@@XoIoRouge yes omniscience costs 10 mana, but the rule is your finisher shouldn't cost LESS than that so eldrazi are fine. As to why well if your opponent played omniscience for retail cost and used it to win the game would you be mad? Personally I wouldn't, 10 mana is a lot of mana to have/cast for a card and would be necessity take a decent amount of time to get out so at least I feel you could get a good commander game done before someone plays it. Why the extra mana for multiple card win cons? Well that's because you can play the cards over the course of multiple turns so adding more mana to the rule is to allow the game to go longer. The thing about finishing a game of commander is that as a casual game doing it too quickly before your opponents can do anything is kind of a dick move, so saying you gotta spend 10 mana at least for what wins you the game is to let your opponents have time to play the game.
I've been wondering where black/red rituals sit. I used think it was justified in mono-red, but now red's a lot stronger. Does Seething Song become a high-powered flag? Jeska's Will? Is Mana Geyser an asshole card? Or all still generally acceptable in mid-tier pods?
100% acceptable. I'd rather see those than a Sol Ring on turn 1. Additionally for me, I don't mind fast mana, I just don't like fast mana in the early game. Play your Sol Ring or Mana Vault on turn 4. No problem. But if you play it on turn 1 then it's quite eye-roll as I probably kept a simple 3-land-cultivate hand and I'm gonna watch you play a 7 drop on the next turn. Might as well give up now because my hand just wasn't fast enough for you. In Mid-Tier decks, Will and Geyser are cards would be seen as game-winning cards. That's enough mana for you to win the game, can you do it? Most of the time they can and the game's over. Nice. It's also never too early to matter, so it's like a turn 10 or later power play that we're like, "Ah shit, someone else is relevant now." Perfectly fine.
I kind of wish that wizards of the Coast would fix some of these combos? like thoracal consultation. too many glitches in magic the gathering, more than there should be period of
i really like playing rituals like seething song or mana geyser. but i never know if i should be disclosing them as fast mana in a rule zero convo. yall gave simian a pass so maybe im good?
I have no problem conceiving and one reason why is, the game reaching a point where it isn't fun anymore for me. so, I will simply concede because it is the best and most polite way to deal with the situation. I'm super new at this game called Commander and I don't really want to make a big fuss about it. I have been in the situation where I was the guy who was taking longer because he felt bad. That's usually because, I'm not very good reading people. at those times, honestly wish I were. I don't use mana rocks in one specific deck. it is my bright palm deck and the creatures in that deck go super stompy. so I took the mana rocks out as a challenge to myself and to make things a bit easier on everybody else. it's my philosophy that the game should be fun for everybody. not just one guy who wants to win it any cost. to that end, I don't even use certain board wipes in most occasions, if at all it.
I have a pet peeve where if you don't go infinite and kill everyone on one turn people accuse you of kingmaking. Like bruv, you dealt 20 damage to me last turn and I'm at 5 life. I'm full swinging your way because I know I won't live.
You guys nailed it, spot on. But, boardwipes are the bane of fun games. Our pod house rule is no boardwipes after 11pm. And if you do it you better win that turn.
I think boardwipes are kinda necessary, at least depending on the decks you play against. If you don't play boardwipes, you also need to ban token-strategies and hexproof stuff, because without wipes, these things are basically guaranteed to win. In my casual playgroup, we allow around 2 wipes per deck (since we have token-strategies in some decks). And also none of the super powerful ones like meathook massacre or cyclonic rift. Also, of course, no land destruction.
Definitely don't agree. Board wipes can absolutely be necessary and unless you're running a deck with multiple board wipes and no win cons(similar to a stax deck with no win cons) then to completely exclude them takes away a huge threat and core part of the game imo. Don't be that dude that scoops as soon as you see a cyc rift
I tend to go 2-3 Boardwipes and 2-4 single target, it's good to have some removal and best if you can make your boardwipes a one sided effect, ie: make your creatures indestructible, phase them out, etc... I think it is boring if you can't reset the board once and awhile. A experienced player should know when to hold back some creatures for a quick restart; my old playgroup had boardwipes, tutors, pay life effects, not many creatures, instant wins all day I warped their meta by playing a hyper aggressive (double digit damage always) Xenagos deck but quickly learned not to play lots of creatures when 1 and Xenagos is more than enough due to the boardwipes. I find the best decks are the ones that can rebuild quickly :P
Definitely gotta be extra turn spells. Monopolizing the time of everyone at the table is a perfect way to never be invited back.
Just found you guys thanks to that jank commander game with the professor. Glad to be here and thanks for having me.
I'm always honest about the intent of my decks. My burn deck is a Sunforger deck, it contains a two card combo. (Mostly to avoid a 30 minute storm turn.)
There's nothing worse than a surprise turn 3-4 infinite combo win. Especially when it's unexpected.
Turn Zero talk should always include play speed and win-con discussion.
On the subject of tutors, I used to run a Captain sisay deck, and it taught me that tutoring made the game less fun for me by encouraging me to run the same lines over and over. I play a 99 card Singleton format because I like variety in game play. As a result, I rarely put tutors in my decks now.
definitely a lesson you have to learn for yourself, I feel like people experience that feeling and then either realize they don't like tutors or go full cEDH loll
Appreciate the input about finishers. Craterhoof and ilk get a lot of crap due to being repetitive and boring (my words), but you said it best that there's a sweet spot when games should end. I feel like the times I get saltiest are when I don't get a chance to do my thing, or I'm trying to "prove" a new deck, so a lot of it just comes down to (like you said) expectations and a sort of balance for the flow of the game. When I know my deck is doing what it's supposed to I have no problems laughing at the incoming damage and removal.
Fast Mana: Lovin it! 95% of my EDH games involve fast mana
Tutors: With great power comes great responsibility. Great people only need to tutor once.
Stax: I think it is fine unless it has no win con.
Finisher: I'm fine if it wins on the spot, we don't need no lingering deaths and long drawn out games. LOL I had a long lingering game recently due to my opponent countering my win con, getting stopped in turn... :P
You guys never disappoint! I’ve got a few commander decks and I’d say none of them are fully optimized. I leave that to cEDH players.
God i love Ken so much
Great video, this is why I run a Naya populate deck which full swings every turn. Either Im going down or you are!
My friends "level 7" sheldred deck had his commander out on turn 3. Game was over by turn 5.
Sheoldred can be oppressive at casual tables but it's not like, cedh or anything
@franslair2199 his deck is filled with tutors and combos that include Exquisite Blood and Sanguine bond.
Winota is my "Oh I see what kind of table this is" deck, and so is Tergrid, but I think I have only played her twice so far.
My personal rule for finishers is one I call the omniscience rule basically your finisher shouldn't cost less than omniscience and if your finisher is a combo of multiple cards then it shouldn't cost less than omniscience plus one for every additional card because you can play them on other turns or two if a card is protected in some way.
What a strange rule. Why is this? Omniscience's mana cost is 10, right?
What's so important about the win con being less than 10 mana?
Why does your rule not let players enjoy 11+ mana cards (Eldrazi Gods?)
I'm just confused on the intention of this rule. Kinda nonsensical.
@@XoIoRouge yes omniscience costs 10 mana, but the rule is your finisher shouldn't cost LESS than that so eldrazi are fine. As to why well if your opponent played omniscience for retail cost and used it to win the game would you be mad? Personally I wouldn't, 10 mana is a lot of mana to have/cast for a card and would be necessity take a decent amount of time to get out so at least I feel you could get a good commander game done before someone plays it. Why the extra mana for multiple card win cons? Well that's because you can play the cards over the course of multiple turns so adding more mana to the rule is to allow the game to go longer.
The thing about finishing a game of commander is that as a casual game doing it too quickly before your opponents can do anything is kind of a dick move, so saying you gotta spend 10 mana at least for what wins you the game is to let your opponents have time to play the game.
I thought I was the only one played slap behind the big red hat
I've been wondering where black/red rituals sit. I used think it was justified in mono-red, but now red's a lot stronger. Does Seething Song become a high-powered flag? Jeska's Will? Is Mana Geyser an asshole card? Or all still generally acceptable in mid-tier pods?
100% acceptable. I'd rather see those than a Sol Ring on turn 1. Additionally for me, I don't mind fast mana, I just don't like fast mana in the early game. Play your Sol Ring or Mana Vault on turn 4. No problem. But if you play it on turn 1 then it's quite eye-roll as I probably kept a simple 3-land-cultivate hand and I'm gonna watch you play a 7 drop on the next turn. Might as well give up now because my hand just wasn't fast enough for you.
In Mid-Tier decks, Will and Geyser are cards would be seen as game-winning cards. That's enough mana for you to win the game, can you do it? Most of the time they can and the game's over. Nice. It's also never too early to matter, so it's like a turn 10 or later power play that we're like, "Ah shit, someone else is relevant now." Perfectly fine.
@@XoIoRouge Cool, these are good points & perspective. Thanks!
31:50 On the real 👍.
Best games are the 'Let mee help youu kill mee'.
Met you guys at magiccon Chicago awesome group
love you guys for doing this clip. i agree with eveything you said. i love the game of magic but like to have fun and not sit down then leave.
I kind of wish that wizards of the Coast would fix some of these combos? like thoracal consultation.
too many glitches in magic the gathering, more than there should be period of
Awesome group
i really like playing rituals like seething song or mana geyser. but i never know if i should be disclosing them as fast mana in a rule zero convo. yall gave simian a pass so maybe im good?
Jeska's will is basically universally accepted in cmr, it's even in precons.
@@franslair2199 well if jeskas is fine then lord knows every other less busted ritual has gotta be fine then
I have no problem conceiving and one reason why is, the game reaching a point where it isn't fun anymore for me. so, I will simply concede because it is the best and most polite way to deal with the situation. I'm super new at this game called Commander and I don't really want to make a big fuss about it.
I have been in the situation where I was the guy who was taking longer because he felt bad. That's usually because, I'm not very good reading people. at those times, honestly wish I were.
I don't use mana rocks in one specific deck. it is my bright palm deck and the creatures in that deck go super stompy. so I took the mana rocks out as a challenge to myself and to make things a bit easier on everybody else.
it's my philosophy that the game should be fun for everybody. not just one guy who wants to win it any cost. to that end, I don't even use certain board wipes in most occasions, if at all it.
What did Arby's do to Ken ?
I have a pet peeve where if you don't go infinite and kill everyone on one turn people accuse you of kingmaking.
Like bruv, you dealt 20 damage to me last turn and I'm at 5 life. I'm full swinging your way because I know I won't live.
Is this an old video?
You guys nailed it, spot on. But, boardwipes are the bane of fun games. Our pod house rule is no boardwipes after 11pm. And if you do it you better win that turn.
Id love a glorious end like effect with boardwipes, where you lose if you dont win the next turn
I think boardwipes are kinda necessary, at least depending on the decks you play against. If you don't play boardwipes, you also need to ban token-strategies and hexproof stuff, because without wipes, these things are basically guaranteed to win. In my casual playgroup, we allow around 2 wipes per deck (since we have token-strategies in some decks). And also none of the super powerful ones like meathook massacre or cyclonic rift. Also, of course, no land destruction.
Definitely don't agree. Board wipes can absolutely be necessary and unless you're running a deck with multiple board wipes and no win cons(similar to a stax deck with no win cons) then to completely exclude them takes away a huge threat and core part of the game imo. Don't be that dude that scoops as soon as you see a cyc rift
I tend to go 2-3 Boardwipes and 2-4 single target, it's good to have some removal and best if you can make your boardwipes a one sided effect, ie: make your creatures indestructible, phase them out, etc...
I think it is boring if you can't reset the board once and awhile. A experienced player should know when to hold back some creatures for a quick restart; my old playgroup had boardwipes, tutors, pay life effects, not many creatures, instant wins all day I warped their meta by playing a hyper aggressive (double digit damage always) Xenagos deck but quickly learned not to play lots of creatures when 1 and Xenagos is more than enough due to the boardwipes. I find the best decks are the ones that can rebuild quickly :P
@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 what format is your favorite other than commander?
These guys should be the RC. Not the current punks.
First