somehow i completely forgot about matrices and the aux outs: in addition to the 16 configurable XLR sockets, the console can also send an additional 6 mixes through the 1/4 aux outs on the back of the console the console has 25 mixes it can process at one time: 16 buses, 6 matrices, the L, the R, and the MC so a clever way to utilize the consoles full mix out potential, is to: assign 12 buses for monitoring, 1 mono bus for front fills, then the L, R, and MC to the XLR sockets (Out 1-16 to the digital snake) then assign matrices to the local 1/4 Aux Outs like for broadcast, balcony speakers, control room feeds, etc… you could even run your L R/MC and other FOH drive lines from the local 1/4 Aux Outs, and use the XLR Out 1-16 for more buses or other outputs as needed
At the last church I volunteered at, they had 2 X32s with two S32 stage boxes. We used the two consoles as one 64-channel console, and no, they didn’t have a monitor console. All audio was processed at FOH. They finally upgraded to a Dlive due to the lack of channels, and the church was moving into a larger space where a tour-grade console was better suited.
I definitely agree that if you already have an x32/m32, you should use it to its full potential. Nearly all modern digital consoles are able to put down a good mix. That being said, in my opinion it’s worth the extra price to go with an SQ or other desk closer to the mid tier. Of course some gigs require a higher channel count than even 48, which is why we recently purchased an s7000 system, but that’s definitely unusual.
Not everybody needs stereo IEMs. And if you don't need any send effects like reverb, delay, you can do eight stereo IEMs plus stereo mains output plus Mono M/C, because you can send the busses beyond the 16 regular outputs via P16/Ultranet outputs which can be routed to the AES50 outputs or via aux outs which are routeable to AES50 as well. You just need enough XLR outs on the other side of the AES50 line. If you don't want to buy an additional S16 just for outputs, get a Midas DN4816-O, hook it up to the P16/Ultranet output of your stagebox and route mixes to AES50 33 to 48. It's very flexible. You just need to grasp how to do it.
I think the best consol has large touchscreen, 16+1 faders, just a few knobs for eq, comp and gate, and has a small footprint. My biggest problem with the x32 is no touch screen and also the sound, in my opinion an qsc toucmix 30 pro has better sounding elements. The M32 is silghty better but steel no touch screen and has lots of areas where is nothing, no knobs or button. I know its not in the same price range but Yamaha qu1 or 5 is a much better consol beacosuse of the big touchscreen and compactness. For me x32/m32 is between analog and digital.
"x32/m32 is between analog and digital." yes exactly! that's one of it's biggest strengths, lol. gives you digital CONTROL over the analog I/O that many people are already used to. no reason to jump into having to learn digital I/O unless necessary. and i'd argue for many situations, it's not necessary and can be more of a hindrance than anything
i looked into that and could not make it work. couldn't insert the card output into the channel strip directly, nor could i assign the card outputs to an insert effect and then into the channel strip
Nice video! What are you using for the external plugins for the 4 vocals you show? I'm using the USB connection and LiveProfessor but I'm struggling a bit with latency. Delayed the other inputs also to have the same delay as the vocals with external plugins. What you says about the outputs is true. Used the system like that a couple of times. We put the M32R in the FoH on AES A and the DL32 on stage. The (big) M32 goes on AES B and we use its 12 outputs for (in ear) monitor mixes. We still need 13 thru 16 for LRCS though. On the FoH mixer we use the buses like you do (subgroups). I'm always trying to get the most out of the console. Trying to make it more like an A&H one. 🤪
right, yeah A&H does a great job with packing in a lot of outputs! but you'll also be paying for every single one of those outputs, lol. having a secondary music tribe console could make a lot of sense for groups who like their setup already, but they just need more outputs- as opposed to paying 5 figures and having to learn an entirely new system! i use waves tune real time on those vocal channels
I have the same Waves RT plugin. I use LiveProfessor as the engine to run the plugins. So the USB of the console is the interface but with that setup I have about 7ms latency back and forth. Are you using the Waves Soundgrid? About A&H: I learned mixing on an GLD80. When I got my own setup I doubted between SQ and M32. Couldn’t afford to get the Avantis which was just released. Got the M32R and DL32 because my local theater has those also. Like you say it’s more a foolproof system then the A&H if you’re new of not a regular user.
@@bartplaysdrums yeah agreed! get what is fool proof relative to your situation/environment! i'm not using soundgrid, just the usb/card out and back in. around 14ms latency round trip for me, and since it's just the for vocal channels there's no real reason to get into soundgrid or any other hosts like that. 14ms isn't bad and really isn't noticeable a more sneaky way to do it, at least for vocals: use the 1/4 aux output on your mic receivers for your vocals to monitor. use the XLR output on the receivers into a 4i4o interface, talking to a computer hosting your plugins. outputs of the interface back into the console, likely on your aux returns which you can soft patch up to your main fader space could also use the XLR output for monitors and the 1/4 aux output into the line inputs of your interface, just depends on how the aux outputs of your receivers output
you definitely could! i would suggest that, in a recording environment, the console would function best as a 32i32o interface instead of a typical all-in-one recording solution. that way you can still utilize plugins in a daw. also to consider, lots of studios are using higher sample rates like to 96khz and above now, whereas the m32 is 48khz
@jthunderbass1 - I agree & disagree simultaneously - lol. I typically have exactly 1 hour to go from empty stage to the front man / woman yelling out "Como estan, mi gente?" (How y'all doin tonight?), all by myself, and that includes top boxes, subs, all cabling, mics, directs, etc. I'm definitely not wasting time double mic-ing some random dude / dudette's kick & snare. You can easily get 80% of the way to the sound of kick in & kick out using a boundary mic inside the kick, Shure Beta 91 or Behringer BA19, I prefer the sound of the Behringer actually. You get your click, you get your boom, as long as you hit the parametrics in the right places. And for what these kind of gigs pay here, well, 80% is way more than they deserve - lol. On the other hand, for installed sound in a fixed location with a permanent drum kit, and all the time in the world to set up, well, heck, why not go all in on the kick & snare mics... as long as any guest engineers who will be running the system know what's what. And for studio recording? Well, obviously you go all in. Like most things in life, there is no one single correct answer, or absolute truth. Peace.
@@guitaristwilllane - lol... and that's why I work by myself, or with my assistant who never mixed before I met him, so basically he does it the exact same as me, since he had no prior bad habits. And when I'm invited to do a show at a club with installed sound, I always go to a show at the venue before I have to work there & get with the house engineer to see what is what ahead of time.
i worked Avantis and i definitely looked back for the M32, lol. you're right, the A&H consoles are absolutely dynamite: but there is nothing wrong with how the M32 does things. there's nothing wrong with the workflow and flexibility in this video i'm arguing that it isn't about being on "another level"; these are just DIFFERENT tools and that are made for different philosophies and different end-users stated more bluntly; i've seen many times the "workflow and flexibility" of an A&H console absolutely ruin any semblance of efficiency or understandable surface space because it encourages the end-user to do stupid stuff with the patching/routing/surface space; with an M32 you have to try really, really hard to mess it up
Yea you are kinda right with that. X/M32 is for people who doesnt know about better. Those patching restrictions on x32... Effects, groups. There is lot a things that SQ handles way better than x32. X32 is kinda next step out of analog world since it behaves somewhat similar with strictly limited way to use it. So yea it can be good for old farts. But when you know what you are doing theres no reason to not hop in AH consoles. If you do sound as a hobby its ok to go with behringer but if you do it more seriously or for a living, just forget those. You get much more out of SQ than you get from behringer. But hey, thats my 2 cents. I do sound for living and used behringer for many years. Not looking back after getting Avantis.
@@comalation6614 There's nothing wrong with the X/M32 consoles, and there's nothing wrong with the A&H series. It's all about preference, i've worked on both, loved the sound of the SQ, and liked alot of how stuff is done on the SQ, specially how intuitive Sends work on A&H which is by far the best way to do sends compared to how the X/M32 does, it is actually sad how badly executed sends is done when you first have worked on an A&H console. But actually saying "X/M32 is for people who doesnt know about better" ? Dude, that's grim, it's not about the tool, but the guy doing the job.. If someone can't work around on an X/M32 or make a good mix on it, then they should reconsider if they really wanna do sound for a living, the X/M32 doesn't get easier to work on or learn how to go around Digital boards.
@@simply8670I didnt say you cant get good mix with x32. AH is just way quicker and easier to use. And at pretty much same price point i dont see why people should go for x32 nowadays.
Single kick and single snare? That’s where you’re way wrong. I always. Do two mics on each because it gives you the ultimate in flexibility, ultimate in tone shaping. Plus redundancy.
Correct, but if you have an engineer (or volunteer) who doesn't know what they are doing its gonna sound like 🐶💩. If you use proper mic placement, all you really need is 5 mics for drums - Kick, Snare, Tom, Floor Tom, Overhead. Everything should also be properly gated, except for the Overhead of course.
sure, but this video is made primarily with the church audience in mind; and i could count on ONE HAND (really one finger) how many times i've seen kick in/out + snare top/bottom actually done and processed correctly point is, you shouldn't NEED and in/out + top/bottom to get a good sound. it's not required to get a good sound. and if you're worried about redundancy then you need to get better equipment/better stage hands, lol
@@KLRCAT It doesn't matter using multiple mics if the source is bad, and sure it helps that the guy knows what he's doing, but in most cases? why bother wasting 2 channels for an out and bottom mic if you can get the job done with only an In and Top? Boundary in the kick and you're set, an 57 as top for snare, you're set, if you want to try something special, a small diaphram condenser as top instead can do wonders. I'm not agreeing on the gating part tho, i will rather say you should only do it if it actually is really needed, bad ringing drum, you name it, it can give something to the whole sound (if the drums allow it) if you let the natural bleed be as it is, it can really bring more of an natural sound to the overall drums instead of gating for gate's sake.
I have a few criticisms on this video (I won't stone you 😁): - The AUX inputs lacks dynamics processing and are not suitable for most input types (even talkback, where a hard compressor is often needed to make sure MD voice is heard). For utility stuff like clicks, guides, ambience mics etc. it's fine, but for anything else you will be limited. This is not the case with SQ or Avantis. Also, SQ has 8 dedicated stereo FX returns, so if we were to compare as you do in the video, SQ actually has 64 channels - "You don't need two keyboards" that is 100% context dependent. And especially in a church setting where your keyboardist may not be a sound engineer, expecting a stereo line with piano, pads, synth, stabs, arps, organs and so on to be perfectly balanced is unrealistic. At the very least piano and synth separate. - "Rather than a poorly done snare top/bottom or kick in/out" why would it be poorly done? Who is this message to? If it's for audio department, why wouldn't they just do it themselves and make sure it's right? I very much prefer both of these in dual mic setup. Expecting one mic to do both tasks is often lackluster and relies on EQ to do the balance, rather than a straight volume balance with each mic tuned to do one job only. - "This console can only process 16 physical XLR outputs at a time" This is misrepresented in your video. Sure, you only have 16 physical XLRs at the back of your console. But there's not really a limit to how many you can have in a system. For just one console, the limit of a system would be 72 physical outputs (2x24 AES50 + 18 XLR + 6 TRS, or for some consoles the monitor outputs are TRS). And that's without including more unconventional solutions like the ADAT out on the S/DL16s or Ultranet outputs with the newer StageConnect boxes that can take advantage of output 33-48 on each AES50 line. And yes I'm including the monitor outputs, since they can be sourced from AUX 7/8 which again can be sourced from any bus if you're not using the USB player. If we're defining "controlled" as sending individual internal channels out, then the limit, regardless of how many physical outs you actually have, is 38 (16 regular + 6 AUX + 16 Ultranet), because all of those 38 routing points can be used for any XLR or Card output. With such a large infrastructure possible, it's laughable that Behringer made this console with only 16 buses (although Wing covers a lot of the missed potential). On SQ, the FX buses are dedicated and the AUXes can be stereo, meaning 12 stereo inears and 4 FX buses. And although their I/O is expensive (maybe even overpriced), the system can support it. - Your solution with putting IEM at 13 and FX at 14 would become a problem unless you either run your IEMs with post-fader send or your FX with pre-fader sends, both of which are highly uncommon and not preferred by audio engineers. On X32, for whatever reason that has never been explained, the bus send configuration is done in odd -> even pairs, meaning you can't send something to bus 13 pre-fader and the same thing to bus 14 post-fader. You either end up with FX that don't follow your main mix levels or you end up with a musician complaining that their monitor goes up and down when you mix. This is not a problem on SQ or Avantis, where each send to each bus is individually configurable - Not a criticism of your video per se, but just a clarification when it comes to comparing it with SQ. A big downside with X32 grouping is that unlike SQ and rest of the A&H lineup, X32 buses are not actually configured themselves to be a group or a monitor bus, but determined by each send how it's treated. Essentially what group send on X32 does is just setting it to a post-fader send at unity level. Because of this, the bus you use as a group is limited like all the other buses that it can't be sent to another bus. Which means that you can't send to neither FX nor monitor after group processing. Which also means that muting the group will not mute the sends. Which sucks 😅The workaround is of course to route the bus to an input, but on an already limited channel mixer, you don't necessarily have that type of space in your channel count. And I have absolutely no idea what that routing is doing latency wise... - Also beware parallell processing needs to be 100% wet when going through buses as input -> LR and input -> bus -> LR is not latency compensated on X32 and can lead to phasing issues. If you need paralell compression, the easiest way would be to use the dry/wet knob on the compressor itself (which is latency compensated) With all of this said, X/M32 is way more bang for the buck and cheaper to build out the ecosystem than SQ. It's bunch of compromises, but you can make do and get a lot out of it if you do smart things like a lot of what you showed in this video 🙂
yes, thank you for offering some VALID criticism while still making note of why the X/M32 is the way it is -VS- what it actually takes, both in finances and skill, to overcome those criticisms with a different console overall, your post brings up a very good point: most people can't offer the kind of criticism that you do. they just hear the hype behind something like an SQ or Avantis, without considering what they actually need and what they can actually handle. and i've seen audio guys in over their head in this way many, many times that's what my video is about. in other words, "if you can't make the most out of your X/M32, your problem is going to be even worse with an SQ/Avantis". or rather, if your sound techs cannot offer the kind of criticism YOU did, ... then it's NOT time to upgrade, lol just to clarify a few things, if you or anyone else is willing to read: - keyboards: i really just mean any "piano-type" role in the mix. yes it depends on context, particularly with how tight the arrangement is. and given that this video is meant for the volunteer church environment... players are typically full send all the time, lol. so you're going to have a hard time fitting two of these in the mix. i'd also argue that differences in balances in the patches is a personnel-based issue, not a technical or even philosophical issue. but yes, the better the players and arrangements, the more you can get away with. but you're not getting away with this in a small-to-mid-sized church, lol - drum mics: i've yet to see a dual mic setup on kick and/or snare be utilized effectively at this scale. i'll use which ever one does the most work by itself, which is usually the port hole beta 52 and under-mic snare i5. others will try to blend in both but not now how to, let alone if they actually checked placement or cared about what the mics were. keeping up with the drum tuning is just way more important at this scale, and that is rarely kept up with either. said another way: dual mics are far, far, far down on the hitlist at this scale. many other things will make much much more of a difference, but even those things aren't taken care of properly. so don't add another layer of something that you're not going to take care of properly - prefader 13/14: yes i did overlook that. for a lot of us in this environment, we don't use reverb a lot as our rooms are naturally pretty reverberant. so i'd put an instrument reverb on this, like for drums which likely won't change much in volume at the mains faders. could even take advantage of this- if your snare is acoustically loud but you want the reverberated sizzle of the snares, this allows you to pump the reverb send without pumping the snare fader itself. or you could use at as a "runaway" effect. or even a way to bring something back in the mix and make it more distant, by turning down the mains fader but a little bit less than you would otherwise - phase, parallel, buses: the only way i could get any phase/latency issues is if i ran the mains faders into a post fader at unity stereo bus, with both the mains faders and the bus sent to LR, and then i added an insert in the bus. if you're just using the bus as an additional channel strip, either in series or parallel, i could not get any phase/latency issues. the only way i could get issues is by inserting an effect from the FX rack in a parallel mains faders + bus setup. if you needed to add an insert to the bus, say to add a reverb to your drum crush bus, you would just need run the bus in series by deselecting the mains faders of the drums from the LR
@@guitaristwilllane Thanks for the response! I'm running mostly X/M32 systems in most churches I've been to, as well as owning a X32 system myself. Starting to run into issues on a bit larger events, but there's a lot of stuff you can do to maximize what you have, especially if not all inputs need to be on for the whole event. SQ and Avantis is definitely a step up in complexity as well, the routing bit can take some time getting used to, I've been playing keys in venues that have SQ installed where the sound tech claims they're sending bunch of keys to my IEMs, but never learned that you have to turn it on in the routing menu (wheras on X/M32 that is done by unmuting the sends in SoF mode). I also loathe the single fader bank system on SQ 😅And that you only have one channel per de-esser (which is a plugin you have to pay for) is just terrible. Re the discussion points: - keyboards: I get that, but because of the uhm..."lower standards" when it comes to balancing patches, you'll end up with a hard-to-control mix of sounds that you ultimately just have to turn down in the mix. When splitting it up, you at least have some control over basic splits, like piano and synth. In most contextes I've done sound, if piano isn't heard clearly enough, you're going to get a note about it afterwards, as it's a key (😉) ingredient in the mix and is often the fundament for the congregation to follow the music. If all the other stuff is too loud, you have to turn down the whole submixed channel and you're left with a lackluster mix and possibly making it hard for the congregation to follow the song. When splitting this up, not only can you ensure that the piano is heard, but you can EQ the synth-stuff to fit much better and push it more into the mix that you would be able to otherwise. Even with more experienced keyboardists, this is very beneficial. Working with the keyboardist on this can work too, but they don't necessarily know (or hear) what the balance should be and can change from song to song, Sunday to Sunday. - drum mics: I've barely been to churches that don't have a dual mic setup on both kick and snare. Most often it's a B91/B52 and SM57/SM57 setup, but sometimes a 2-in-1 kick mic and SM57/SDC setup. I don't like the sound of the top end of B52, so in cases where I have to use one mic per drum, I've used either B91 or Audix D6. But combining those two gives way better control. I've used some mics where I don't need snare bottom at all, but those are typically of a price range that neither I nor churches in my area can afford or justify spending money on, and rental companies mostly don't offer them. - phase, parallell, buses: Then my information may not be accurate. I haven't tested this myself, as I've just used the mix knob, but last time I researched this, I found out that they were not latency compensated. It's possible that what they meant was that when adding an insert, it wouldn't be compensated for, but that without inserts, it's already optimized.
The x32 and m32 are just not worth the money anymore. The overall sound quality especially of the x32 is poor and even worse when it comes to processing. The Wing is a much better platform for processing performance. The sound quality of the sq series is much better than the behringer stuff and the routing is so much easier and intuitive. Also the lack of touch screens and the routing of the x/m32’s is painfully annoying in this day and age.
somehow i completely forgot about matrices and the aux outs:
in addition to the 16 configurable XLR sockets, the console can also send an additional 6 mixes through the 1/4 aux outs on the back of the console
the console has 25 mixes it can process at one time: 16 buses, 6 matrices, the L, the R, and the MC
so a clever way to utilize the consoles full mix out potential, is to: assign 12 buses for monitoring, 1 mono bus for front fills, then the L, R, and MC to the XLR sockets (Out 1-16 to the digital snake)
then assign matrices to the local 1/4 Aux Outs like for broadcast, balcony speakers, control room feeds, etc…
you could even run your L R/MC and other FOH drive lines from the local 1/4 Aux Outs, and use the XLR Out 1-16 for more buses or other outputs as needed
At the last church I volunteered at, they had 2 X32s with two S32 stage boxes. We used the two consoles as one 64-channel console, and no, they didn’t have a monitor console. All audio was processed at FOH. They finally upgraded to a Dlive due to the lack of channels, and the church was moving into a larger space where a tour-grade console was better suited.
I definitely agree that if you already have an x32/m32, you should use it to its full potential. Nearly all modern digital consoles are able to put down a good mix. That being said, in my opinion it’s worth the extra price to go with an SQ or other desk closer to the mid tier. Of course some gigs require a higher channel count than even 48, which is why we recently purchased an s7000 system, but that’s definitely unusual.
Not everybody needs stereo IEMs. And if you don't need any send effects like reverb, delay, you can do eight stereo IEMs plus stereo mains output plus Mono M/C, because you can send the busses beyond the 16 regular outputs via P16/Ultranet outputs which can be routed to the AES50 outputs or via aux outs which are routeable to AES50 as well. You just need enough XLR outs on the other side of the AES50 line. If you don't want to buy an additional S16 just for outputs, get a Midas DN4816-O, hook it up to the P16/Ultranet output of your stagebox and route mixes to AES50 33 to 48. It's very flexible. You just need to grasp how to do it.
I think the best consol has large touchscreen, 16+1 faders, just a few knobs for eq, comp and gate, and has a small footprint. My biggest problem with the x32 is no touch screen and also the sound, in my opinion an qsc toucmix 30 pro has better sounding elements. The M32 is silghty better but steel no touch screen and has lots of areas where is nothing, no knobs or button. I know its not in the same price range but Yamaha qu1 or 5 is a much better consol beacosuse of the big touchscreen and compactness. For me x32/m32 is between analog and digital.
"x32/m32 is between analog and digital."
yes exactly! that's one of it's biggest strengths, lol. gives you digital CONTROL over the analog I/O that many people are already used to. no reason to jump into having to learn digital I/O unless necessary. and i'd argue for many situations, it's not necessary and can be more of a hindrance than anything
The first 8 channels, you can use a simple return insert, that way you can have those 4 channels free
i looked into that and could not make it work. couldn't insert the card output into the channel strip directly, nor could i assign the card outputs to an insert effect and then into the channel strip
Great video sir!
Nice video! What are you using for the external plugins for the 4 vocals you show? I'm using the USB connection and LiveProfessor but I'm struggling a bit with latency. Delayed the other inputs also to have the same delay as the vocals with external plugins.
What you says about the outputs is true. Used the system like that a couple of times. We put the M32R in the FoH on AES A and the DL32 on stage. The (big) M32 goes on AES B and we use its 12 outputs for (in ear) monitor mixes. We still need 13 thru 16 for LRCS though. On the FoH mixer we use the buses like you do (subgroups).
I'm always trying to get the most out of the console. Trying to make it more like an A&H one. 🤪
right, yeah A&H does a great job with packing in a lot of outputs! but you'll also be paying for every single one of those outputs, lol. having a secondary music tribe console could make a lot of sense for groups who like their setup already, but they just need more outputs- as opposed to paying 5 figures and having to learn an entirely new system!
i use waves tune real time on those vocal channels
I have the same Waves RT plugin. I use LiveProfessor as the engine to run the plugins. So the USB of the console is the interface but with that setup I have about 7ms latency back and forth.
Are you using the Waves Soundgrid?
About A&H: I learned mixing on an GLD80. When I got my own setup I doubted between SQ and M32. Couldn’t afford to get the Avantis which was just released. Got the M32R and DL32 because my local theater has those also. Like you say it’s more a foolproof system then the A&H if you’re new of not a regular user.
@@bartplaysdrums yeah agreed! get what is fool proof relative to your situation/environment!
i'm not using soundgrid, just the usb/card out and back in. around 14ms latency round trip for me, and since it's just the for vocal channels there's no real reason to get into soundgrid or any other hosts like that. 14ms isn't bad and really isn't noticeable
a more sneaky way to do it, at least for vocals: use the 1/4 aux output on your mic receivers for your vocals to monitor. use the XLR output on the receivers into a 4i4o interface, talking to a computer hosting your plugins. outputs of the interface back into the console, likely on your aux returns which you can soft patch up to your main fader space
could also use the XLR output for monitors and the 1/4 aux output into the line inputs of your interface, just depends on how the aux outputs of your receivers output
Great video
Would you do a "proffesional recording" on the M32, like doing better produced demos or even albums?
you definitely could! i would suggest that, in a recording environment, the console would function best as a 32i32o interface instead of a typical all-in-one recording solution. that way you can still utilize plugins in a daw. also to consider, lots of studios are using higher sample rates like to 96khz and above now, whereas the m32 is 48khz
@jthunderbass1 - I agree & disagree simultaneously - lol. I typically have exactly 1 hour to go from empty stage to the front man / woman yelling out "Como estan, mi gente?" (How y'all doin tonight?), all by myself, and that includes top boxes, subs, all cabling, mics, directs, etc. I'm definitely not wasting time double mic-ing some random dude / dudette's kick & snare. You can easily get 80% of the way to the sound of kick in & kick out using a boundary mic inside the kick, Shure Beta 91 or Behringer BA19, I prefer the sound of the Behringer actually. You get your click, you get your boom, as long as you hit the parametrics in the right places. And for what these kind of gigs pay here, well, 80% is way more than they deserve - lol.
On the other hand, for installed sound in a fixed location with a permanent drum kit, and all the time in the world to set up, well, heck, why not go all in on the kick & snare mics... as long as any guest engineers who will be running the system know what's what. And for studio recording? Well, obviously you go all in.
Like most things in life, there is no one single correct answer, or absolute truth. Peace.
"as long as any guest engineers who will be running the system know what's what"
guarantee you 9 times out of 10, they have NO CLUE what to do. lol
@@guitaristwilllane - lol... and that's why I work by myself, or with my assistant who never mixed before I met him, so basically he does it the exact same as me, since he had no prior bad habits. And when I'm invited to do a show at a club with installed sound, I always go to a show at the venue before I have to work there & get with the house engineer to see what is what ahead of time.
Its nice to see someone else agrees with me about the BA19. I had to use one accidently one night, and now it's all I use.
Once you use Sq or Avantis you wont look back for m32/x32. Workflow and flexibility is just on another level on AH consoles.
i worked Avantis and i definitely looked back for the M32, lol. you're right, the A&H consoles are absolutely dynamite: but there is nothing wrong with how the M32 does things. there's nothing wrong with the workflow and flexibility
in this video i'm arguing that it isn't about being on "another level"; these are just DIFFERENT tools and that are made for different philosophies and different end-users
stated more bluntly; i've seen many times the "workflow and flexibility" of an A&H console absolutely ruin any semblance of efficiency or understandable surface space because it encourages the end-user to do stupid stuff with the patching/routing/surface space; with an M32 you have to try really, really hard to mess it up
Yea you are kinda right with that. X/M32 is for people who doesnt know about better. Those patching restrictions on x32... Effects, groups. There is lot a things that SQ handles way better than x32. X32 is kinda next step out of analog world since it behaves somewhat similar with strictly limited way to use it. So yea it can be good for old farts. But when you know what you are doing theres no reason to not hop in AH consoles. If you do sound as a hobby its ok to go with behringer but if you do it more seriously or for a living, just forget those. You get much more out of SQ than you get from behringer. But hey, thats my 2 cents. I do sound for living and used behringer for many years. Not looking back after getting Avantis.
@@comalation6614 "X/M32 is for people who doesnt know about better"
oh okay. good luck man
@@comalation6614 There's nothing wrong with the X/M32 consoles, and there's nothing wrong with the A&H series.
It's all about preference, i've worked on both, loved the sound of the SQ, and liked alot of how stuff is done on the SQ, specially how intuitive Sends work on A&H which is by far the best way to do sends compared to how the X/M32 does, it is actually sad how badly executed sends is done when you first have worked on an A&H console.
But actually saying "X/M32 is for people who doesnt know about better" ? Dude, that's grim, it's not about the tool, but the guy doing the job..
If someone can't work around on an X/M32 or make a good mix on it, then they should reconsider if they really wanna do sound for a living, the X/M32 doesn't get easier to work on or learn how to go around Digital boards.
@@simply8670I didnt say you cant get good mix with x32. AH is just way quicker and easier to use. And at pretty much same price point i dont see why people should go for x32 nowadays.
Single kick and single snare? That’s where you’re way wrong.
I always. Do two mics on each because it gives you the ultimate in flexibility, ultimate in tone shaping. Plus redundancy.
Correct, but if you have an engineer (or volunteer) who doesn't know what they are doing its gonna sound like 🐶💩.
If you use proper mic placement, all you really need is 5 mics for drums - Kick, Snare, Tom, Floor Tom, Overhead. Everything should also be properly gated, except for the Overhead of course.
sure, but this video is made primarily with the church audience in mind; and i could count on ONE HAND (really one finger) how many times i've seen kick in/out + snare top/bottom actually done and processed correctly
point is, you shouldn't NEED and in/out + top/bottom to get a good sound. it's not required to get a good sound. and if you're worried about redundancy then you need to get better equipment/better stage hands, lol
@@KLRCAT That's why you do not use people that don't know what they are doing on the console.
@@KLRCAT It doesn't matter using multiple mics if the source is bad, and sure it helps that the guy knows what he's doing, but in most cases? why bother wasting 2 channels for an out and bottom mic if you can get the job done with only an In and Top? Boundary in the kick and you're set, an 57 as top for snare, you're set, if you want to try something special, a small diaphram condenser as top instead can do wonders.
I'm not agreeing on the gating part tho, i will rather say you should only do it if it actually is really needed, bad ringing drum, you name it, it can give something to the whole sound (if the drums allow it) if you let the natural bleed be as it is, it can really bring more of an natural sound to the overall drums instead of gating for gate's sake.
I have a few criticisms on this video (I won't stone you 😁):
- The AUX inputs lacks dynamics processing and are not suitable for most input types (even talkback, where a hard compressor is often needed to make sure MD voice is heard). For utility stuff like clicks, guides, ambience mics etc. it's fine, but for anything else you will be limited. This is not the case with SQ or Avantis. Also, SQ has 8 dedicated stereo FX returns, so if we were to compare as you do in the video, SQ actually has 64 channels
- "You don't need two keyboards" that is 100% context dependent. And especially in a church setting where your keyboardist may not be a sound engineer, expecting a stereo line with piano, pads, synth, stabs, arps, organs and so on to be perfectly balanced is unrealistic. At the very least piano and synth separate.
- "Rather than a poorly done snare top/bottom or kick in/out" why would it be poorly done? Who is this message to? If it's for audio department, why wouldn't they just do it themselves and make sure it's right? I very much prefer both of these in dual mic setup. Expecting one mic to do both tasks is often lackluster and relies on EQ to do the balance, rather than a straight volume balance with each mic tuned to do one job only.
- "This console can only process 16 physical XLR outputs at a time" This is misrepresented in your video. Sure, you only have 16 physical XLRs at the back of your console. But there's not really a limit to how many you can have in a system. For just one console, the limit of a system would be 72 physical outputs (2x24 AES50 + 18 XLR + 6 TRS, or for some consoles the monitor outputs are TRS). And that's without including more unconventional solutions like the ADAT out on the S/DL16s or Ultranet outputs with the newer StageConnect boxes that can take advantage of output 33-48 on each AES50 line. And yes I'm including the monitor outputs, since they can be sourced from AUX 7/8 which again can be sourced from any bus if you're not using the USB player. If we're defining "controlled" as sending individual internal channels out, then the limit, regardless of how many physical outs you actually have, is 38 (16 regular + 6 AUX + 16 Ultranet), because all of those 38 routing points can be used for any XLR or Card output. With such a large infrastructure possible, it's laughable that Behringer made this console with only 16 buses (although Wing covers a lot of the missed potential). On SQ, the FX buses are dedicated and the AUXes can be stereo, meaning 12 stereo inears and 4 FX buses. And although their I/O is expensive (maybe even overpriced), the system can support it.
- Your solution with putting IEM at 13 and FX at 14 would become a problem unless you either run your IEMs with post-fader send or your FX with pre-fader sends, both of which are highly uncommon and not preferred by audio engineers. On X32, for whatever reason that has never been explained, the bus send configuration is done in odd -> even pairs, meaning you can't send something to bus 13 pre-fader and the same thing to bus 14 post-fader. You either end up with FX that don't follow your main mix levels or you end up with a musician complaining that their monitor goes up and down when you mix. This is not a problem on SQ or Avantis, where each send to each bus is individually configurable
- Not a criticism of your video per se, but just a clarification when it comes to comparing it with SQ. A big downside with X32 grouping is that unlike SQ and rest of the A&H lineup, X32 buses are not actually configured themselves to be a group or a monitor bus, but determined by each send how it's treated. Essentially what group send on X32 does is just setting it to a post-fader send at unity level. Because of this, the bus you use as a group is limited like all the other buses that it can't be sent to another bus. Which means that you can't send to neither FX nor monitor after group processing. Which also means that muting the group will not mute the sends. Which sucks 😅The workaround is of course to route the bus to an input, but on an already limited channel mixer, you don't necessarily have that type of space in your channel count. And I have absolutely no idea what that routing is doing latency wise...
- Also beware parallell processing needs to be 100% wet when going through buses as input -> LR and input -> bus -> LR is not latency compensated on X32 and can lead to phasing issues. If you need paralell compression, the easiest way would be to use the dry/wet knob on the compressor itself (which is latency compensated)
With all of this said, X/M32 is way more bang for the buck and cheaper to build out the ecosystem than SQ. It's bunch of compromises, but you can make do and get a lot out of it if you do smart things like a lot of what you showed in this video 🙂
yes, thank you for offering some VALID criticism while still making note of why the X/M32 is the way it is -VS- what it actually takes, both in finances and skill, to overcome those criticisms with a different console
overall, your post brings up a very good point: most people can't offer the kind of criticism that you do. they just hear the hype behind something like an SQ or Avantis, without considering what they actually need and what they can actually handle. and i've seen audio guys in over their head in this way many, many times
that's what my video is about. in other words, "if you can't make the most out of your X/M32, your problem is going to be even worse with an SQ/Avantis". or rather, if your sound techs cannot offer the kind of criticism YOU did, ... then it's NOT time to upgrade, lol
just to clarify a few things, if you or anyone else is willing to read:
- keyboards: i really just mean any "piano-type" role in the mix. yes it depends on context, particularly with how tight the arrangement is. and given that this video is meant for the volunteer church environment... players are typically full send all the time, lol. so you're going to have a hard time fitting two of these in the mix. i'd also argue that differences in balances in the patches is a personnel-based issue, not a technical or even philosophical issue. but yes, the better the players and arrangements, the more you can get away with. but you're not getting away with this in a small-to-mid-sized church, lol
- drum mics: i've yet to see a dual mic setup on kick and/or snare be utilized effectively at this scale. i'll use which ever one does the most work by itself, which is usually the port hole beta 52 and under-mic snare i5. others will try to blend in both but not now how to, let alone if they actually checked placement or cared about what the mics were. keeping up with the drum tuning is just way more important at this scale, and that is rarely kept up with either. said another way: dual mics are far, far, far down on the hitlist at this scale. many other things will make much much more of a difference, but even those things aren't taken care of properly. so don't add another layer of something that you're not going to take care of properly
- prefader 13/14: yes i did overlook that. for a lot of us in this environment, we don't use reverb a lot as our rooms are naturally pretty reverberant. so i'd put an instrument reverb on this, like for drums which likely won't change much in volume at the mains faders. could even take advantage of this- if your snare is acoustically loud but you want the reverberated sizzle of the snares, this allows you to pump the reverb send without pumping the snare fader itself. or you could use at as a "runaway" effect. or even a way to bring something back in the mix and make it more distant, by turning down the mains fader but a little bit less than you would otherwise
- phase, parallel, buses: the only way i could get any phase/latency issues is if i ran the mains faders into a post fader at unity stereo bus, with both the mains faders and the bus sent to LR, and then i added an insert in the bus. if you're just using the bus as an additional channel strip, either in series or parallel, i could not get any phase/latency issues. the only way i could get issues is by inserting an effect from the FX rack in a parallel mains faders + bus setup. if you needed to add an insert to the bus, say to add a reverb to your drum crush bus, you would just need run the bus in series by deselecting the mains faders of the drums from the LR
@@guitaristwilllane Thanks for the response! I'm running mostly X/M32 systems in most churches I've been to, as well as owning a X32 system myself. Starting to run into issues on a bit larger events, but there's a lot of stuff you can do to maximize what you have, especially if not all inputs need to be on for the whole event. SQ and Avantis is definitely a step up in complexity as well, the routing bit can take some time getting used to, I've been playing keys in venues that have SQ installed where the sound tech claims they're sending bunch of keys to my IEMs, but never learned that you have to turn it on in the routing menu (wheras on X/M32 that is done by unmuting the sends in SoF mode). I also loathe the single fader bank system on SQ 😅And that you only have one channel per de-esser (which is a plugin you have to pay for) is just terrible.
Re the discussion points:
- keyboards: I get that, but because of the uhm..."lower standards" when it comes to balancing patches, you'll end up with a hard-to-control mix of sounds that you ultimately just have to turn down in the mix. When splitting it up, you at least have some control over basic splits, like piano and synth. In most contextes I've done sound, if piano isn't heard clearly enough, you're going to get a note about it afterwards, as it's a key (😉) ingredient in the mix and is often the fundament for the congregation to follow the music. If all the other stuff is too loud, you have to turn down the whole submixed channel and you're left with a lackluster mix and possibly making it hard for the congregation to follow the song. When splitting this up, not only can you ensure that the piano is heard, but you can EQ the synth-stuff to fit much better and push it more into the mix that you would be able to otherwise. Even with more experienced keyboardists, this is very beneficial. Working with the keyboardist on this can work too, but they don't necessarily know (or hear) what the balance should be and can change from song to song, Sunday to Sunday.
- drum mics: I've barely been to churches that don't have a dual mic setup on both kick and snare. Most often it's a B91/B52 and SM57/SM57 setup, but sometimes a 2-in-1 kick mic and SM57/SDC setup. I don't like the sound of the top end of B52, so in cases where I have to use one mic per drum, I've used either B91 or Audix D6. But combining those two gives way better control. I've used some mics where I don't need snare bottom at all, but those are typically of a price range that neither I nor churches in my area can afford or justify spending money on, and rental companies mostly don't offer them.
- phase, parallell, buses: Then my information may not be accurate. I haven't tested this myself, as I've just used the mix knob, but last time I researched this, I found out that they were not latency compensated. It's possible that what they meant was that when adding an insert, it wouldn't be compensated for, but that without inserts, it's already optimized.
The x32 and m32 are just not worth the money anymore. The overall sound quality especially of the x32 is poor and even worse when it comes to processing. The Wing is a much better platform for processing performance. The sound quality of the sq series is much better than the behringer stuff and the routing is so much easier and intuitive. Also the lack of touch screens and the routing of the x/m32’s is painfully annoying in this day and age.
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