The discussion begins by acknowledging Charles Spurgeon's well-documented struggle with depression. He believed sharing his experience could offer consolation to others facing similar battles, emphasizing that experiencing melancholy was not unusual, even for someone as joyfully perceived as he was. After this Kyle goes into read some of his own journal entries from seasons of darkness that he had faced.
I don't know if the person who chooses these clips and puts them on TH-cam reads these comments. If you do brother or sister I praise God for you. I am in a terrible season just now and hearing this helps. Thank you.
GOD bless Brother White for opening up & sharing his humanity. I have no doubt GOD allowed him to be used to bless people of Faith struggling with depression. To GOD BE THE GLORY! 🙏🏼🕊🙌🏼🔥
Thank you so much for this. Will you be uploading the second part on this TH-cam channel or do we have to download the app to get part 2? Sorry if stupid question.
I have decided to present my previously deleted comments for your consideration. Could not Spurgeon and Kyle both have the same reason for their depression? Could it not be an inner doctrinal conflict? Is this such a strange conclusion to come to? I attended a Reformed Church for many years - and loved the biblical teaching on godly living ... However, I became more and more disillusioned with the "doctrines of grace." I then spent three years studying deeply and comparing Scripture with Reformed theology. During this time I felt quite depressed. I consulted my pastor regarding these doctrines - but (maybe because I am a woman) he did not want to discuss my dilemma and examine the doctrines in depth. And, in one way, I did not want to know the truth and be forced to change my viewpoint (and so leave the church). However, in the end, God revealed that I had been deceived by these doctrines - and the wonderful sense of relief and release was tremendous. My depression lifted and my inner peace returned. What was the conflict that caused this depression? When I read God's Word it told me that Jesus died for all mankind - yet my pastor said He only died for a few people that He had chosen - and for no good reason had damned the rest to hell. Calvinism teaches OSAS, yet Jesus tells us that if we do not continue to "abide in the Vine we will be eternally lost (John 15). Calvinism teaches that we cannot respond to the gospel - because we are "dead in sin" and anyway that would indicate "good works" .. yet God has given us a conscience and repeatedly COMMANDS us to listen to the gospel, consider it, to respond to it, to make a choice, to believe it, and to repent and receive Christ as Lord and Saviour (John 1:9-13). God cannot believe for us or repent for us - we have a CHOICE to make. On nearly every page of the Bible God calls us to make a decision by our own free will - both before we are saved - and afterwards. "CHOOSE this day whom you will serve" - either the devil or the Lord. He has granted us the precious gift of free will - if He had not, He could not legally judge us on the Last Day. There is no way we can save ourselves .... but we are commanded to respond to the calling and drawing of God in the gospel message. If not, what is the purpose of evangelism? I am not comparing Calvinism in any way with the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are lost) ... but those poor souls (and Mormons) seem very depressed - because of the unbiblical doctrines they have been forced to believe. They are believing man-made doctrines and rejecting God's truth. This can only result in inner conflict, anxiety and depression. Please prayerfully consider what I have said my brothers and sisters.
I agree that bad doctrine results in confusion. Our faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), and knowing the truth sets us free from sin (John 8:31-32). With conflicting doctrine, the very foundation of our lives in put into question and can cause depression without an immediate answer. Now, in many cases, it's not a clash of only doctrine that causes this, but sin as well. When one lives and thereby defines themselves with a sin while their doctrine condemns it, it brings about a similar contradiction. Now, in your case, you came to the conclusion that these "doctrines of grace" were incorrect, that, broadly speaking, we have to act and persevere instead of God. I would like to present a view to you and see what you think. Generally, I don't believe that either side is wrong. I believe both. There is an amazing duality of God doing things and believers doing things in salvation. God commands everyone to repent (Acts 17:30), but we can't come to Jesus unless the Father calls us (John 6:44). It is God who works in us to be holy (Philippians 2:13), but we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). God will keep us in the faith that he started us in until the day of Christ, bearing fruits (Philippians 1:6; John 15:16), but we must hold fast until the end (Hebrews 3:13-14). We have been sealed by the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance of the kingdom of God (Ephesians 1:13-14), but James indicates that we can save believers from falling away from the faith and save their soul from death (James 5:19-20). This clash of us working versus God working is so common in the Bible, and a lot of it comes from the minimally understood relation between God and freewill. The answer is sometimes to choose a side. For example, there is no way to reconcile that people can't lose righteousness and that people can. One must be false. I believe that we can't lose our salvation (we can talk about this more if you want; I also want to make clear that I'm not saying we can live in sin and be saved). But for many other situations, I believe both are true. For example, only those who come to God are saved, and only those who repent and believe are saved. To say that either one is wrong would contradict the Bible. What about the person who isn't called but repents and believes? According to what we've established, they don't exist. Why? It seems possible. This is where that total depravity doctrine comes in (although, depending on the wording, I don't fully believe it). We physically can do it, but we never will, not because we can't, but because we won't, which, by implication, is because of our great sinfulness. I hope this inspires some interesting thoughts.
@@justinbrentwood1299 Thank you very much for your reply Justin. You have clearly explained the dilemma, and that is the conflict (that God has allowed) in Scripture. Maybe it is a test from the Lord to get us to dig deeper into His Word and also to see if we can show grace to one another as we grapple with the doctrines! We Christians, therefore, have to weigh Scripture with Scripture and make a decision. When I attended a Reformed Church I was not a Calvinist … So I had more of an open mind regarding the subject. But when I saw the real dilemma … and that I had to make a choice, I considered both sides of the argument carefully. But I kept changing sides because I wanted Calvinism to be true. In the end (realising there were godly Christians in both camps) I prayed that the Lord would reveal His truth … as (in the end) I didn’t care which side was correct - but only that I had God’s truth. You seem well balanced - but so many Calvinists simply believe what they are told, never examining conflicting opinions, and are never willing to change their viewpoint. I have been found wanting in many areas in the past 40 years (Word of Faith teaching, Christian Zionism etc.) and the dear Lord has led me out by developing my discernment. That is not to say that I am automatically correct regarding Calvinism - but by impartially weighing up both sides in the Old and New Testaments, I believe the “Doctrines of Grace” fail in many ways. Here are some comments: [1] You are correct regarding moral sin also causing conflict. But, if we have believed an incorrect doctrine (and teach others) could that not be a sin also? [2] Are both sides of the argument correct? It would be nice to think so … and I can see where you are coming from. It is correct that we work .. and that God works in us. But is this the case in all of the ‘doctrines of grace’? [3] God calls (correct) ... but we must respond. Therefore, although we are "dead in sin" we are not SO dead as to be unable to respond to God in faith. If we can respond to the gospel (as an alcoholic atheist is able to take himself to an AA meeting and commit to a programme of rehabilitation), then we must have free will … or God would not repeatedly ask us to “choose.” The important thing is … and we both agree … that it is God alone who saves and not we ourselves. But I believe He responds to our faith or our desire for it. “He … the true light, which gives light to EVERYONE, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. But to all who did RECEIVE Him, who BELIEVED in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD” (John 1:8-13). The order appears to be … BELIEVE, RECEIVE … and then GOD SAVES… Forgive the capitals … but it makes things clearer. [4] Chosen by God. I believe God COULD sovereignly choose to save some and damn others to hell - if He so desired. But the whole idea of Him asking us all to carefully consider salvation (Luke 14:28-33) before responding to the gospel, and His calling us all to repent, to believe, to choose - points to the fact that we obviously must have a choice in the matter. It is important to remember that “God does not show favouritism” (Rom. 2:11 - see also, Eph. 6:9 and Acts 10:34). The whole Calvinist idea of God arbitrarily choosing one person against another would contradict God’s impartiality. I believe the Bible shows that the gospel is given freely to ALL mankind. “The grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to ALL people” (Titus 2:11). “God desires ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). If God’s desire is for ALL men to be saved (and He could make this possible by choosing all men and damning none) … why then are not all men saved? It can only be because they choose of their own volition to refuse the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. All my Calvinist friends who evangelise - offer salvation as a free gift to be received. They never say, “To be honest, I do not know if you have been chosen by God or not, but just in case you are one of the elect, give your life to Jesus.” They never tell people God may have chosen them for damnation. Therefore, I believe we ALL have the opportunity to respond to God in faith - and will be damned if we refuse to do so. Would God be just - if He only called some lost sinners to Himself - but allowed the other lost sinners to be damned without the opportunity to make a response to the Gospel? How would this work out on Judgement Day? Would God be able to justly send a lost sinner (who had never heard the gospel) to hell? Yes, he would deserve hell as a sinner - but surely he would also deserve the right to hear the gospel - if others had been given that opportunity? Just saying God is sovereign … doesn’t eliminate all these problems. It doesn’t eradicate His justice and allow Him to give unfair preferential treatment to a certain group of people at the expense of another… Because that would deny His very nature. [5] The ‘Perseverance of the Saints.’ I believe this form of OSAS is the lie of Satan in the Garden of Eden … “You shall not surely die” (Gen. 3:4). This is the one doctrine that nearly all Christians believe and argue most vehemently for. You say, “For example, there is no way to reconcile that people can't lose righteousness and that people can. One must be false.” But maybe this can be reconciled too? Once again there is a dilemma … Does God save us and keep us? Yes, most definitely. I believe we are in a covenant with God … and when He saves us He promises to keep us, never leave us, and bring us through to full salvation. God will never break His promise - so all the Scriptures you would offer - show this to be true. However, there are two parties in a covenant relationship. God cannot break His covenant with us - but we can break ours with Him. This is clearly seen in the O.T. where God always remained faithful to Israel - but His people did not remain faithful to Him. When they failed to keep His commandments they were damned - despite His positive promises to them. Yes, we are eternally secure in God … IF we continue in the faith, IF we keep His commandments … That seems to be the way to reconcile the two opposing doctrines. Tim Conway preaches wonderful sermons (aren’t they all) that appear to refute OSAS … and offers the many warnings in Scripture against the doctrine … but he always ends in the last few minutes with a caveat, saying … “but, of course, we cannot lose our salvation in Christ.” However, he never, ever explains why. Why would God give warnings … if there was NO possibility of forfeiting our salvation? And why is Tim always so earnest in his warnings to Christians? I believe our Lord Jesus explains the dilemma regarding the OSAS issue clearly in John 15 … but whenever I have mentioned this in the YT comments section … there are hardly any constructive replies. Maybe you would like to discuss John 15:1-10? God bless you.
@@Ancient-Paths 1. Yes, it would certainly be an error, and depending on exactly what is being taught, teaching someone a false doctrine could very easily be a sin. 2. I think that each "doctrine of grace" should be evaluated separately. They are similar, but they are different enough that we can't just group them all into the same answer. I wouldn't say that both sides are right in every case, such as OSAS, which I'll explain a little bit further in 5. 3. We agree. 4. We agree in that God could sovereignly choose who to save and who to damn, that God calls us to use our free will to choose him, and that God would be just to condemn a sinner for his sins. However, you say that everyone deserves the right to hear the gospel, but I do not believe this is the case. Of course, it would be amazing for everyone to hear the gospel, but God doesn't have to make sure that everyone hears it. He didn't have to give the gospel at all, and in the same way that I can give a gift to any homeless person I please, God can give the gospel to anyone he pleases. There's nothing forcing him to share the gospel to everyone, and this is what we see in reality too, that some people die without hearing the gospel. God is impartial, but this means that he won't judge different people by different standards because they're different. It doesn't mean that he will give everyone the same opportunities of grace. Here's an interesting scripture. Romans 9:14-23 says, What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory. We have an example. The Bible says that God raised up Pharaoh for destruction, to proclaim his name in the Earth. But Paul goes further to generalize this to everyone, that God can have mercy on whom he wants to show mercy and can harden whomever he wants to harden. People may ask, "How can God judge us if we're just following his plan," to which Paul answers that he has the authority to do so as the creator. Of course, this doesn't reject the idea that we have free will to do good and bad, to reject or respond to the Gospel or the knowledge that God gives us through our conscience (Romans 2:14-15). It just shows the complex relation between free will and God's sovereignty, that we have free will to do the right thing AND God chooses who gets mercy and who gets hardened. 5. The problem that I have with saying that, if we continue in the faith, we are eternally secure, is that it puts a continuing condition on being eternally secure when there are some passages in the Bible that say that we are eternally secure when we are saved. For example, Romans 8:28-30 says that God predestinates someone, calls them, justifies them, and then glorifies them. There's no room for someone to be saved after being predestinated and called, and then fall away from the faith here. Or, how can we be born again of the Spirit (John 1:12-13), sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), kept in God's powerful hand (John 10:27-30), and then fall away? I believe that the correct way to reconcile this is not, "if we continue in the faith, we are eternally secure," but, "if we are saved, we are eternally secure AND we will continue in the faith." For those who don't continue, as 1 John 3:6 would say, they never knew Jesus and were therefore never saved. John 15:1-10 describes how those who don't bear fruit are taken away, so we must bear fruit and abide in him. This doesn't contradict OSAS as I have presented it because there will never be a case of a true believer who doesn't abide in Jesus. So why did Jesus say this? He's giving us guidance and a way to reject the doctrine that we can continue in sin and be saved. He's making sure to be clearly understood that we can't continue in sin and be saved, that we must abide in him and his will all our lives.
@@justinbrentwood1299 Thank you for your reply Justin. [2] Yes, it is too vast a set of doctrines to deal with too broadly - but one leads on to another. The “depravity of man” leads on to (what I believe to be) the disparaging of the free will of man - because if you are utterly and completely “dead in sin” (which I do not see in Scripture) you cannot possibly have a will that can search for God, come to God, cry out to God, believe the gospel, and make choices (which God calls us to do throughout Scripture). I believe we are all “dead in sin” … but this cannot possibly mean we cannot respond to the gospel - or God would not have told us to do so. [4] You do not believe that God has to give the gospel to all mankind. In a sense, no He doesn’t - but we believe that for different reasons. I believe He doesn’t - because He knows who WILL be saved and lost (even when they never hear the gospel) because of His foreknowledge - so, in effect, only they need to hear the gospel. With that foreknowledge He then declares some saved (whom He calls chosen or elect) and some lost. The Calvinist, however, believes that God has predestined (ignoring man’s free will) some for eternal salvation and some for eternal damnation before they are even born. They would not all have to hear the gospel message - because their destiny has already been decided. Romans 9 and the story of Pharaoh, btw, are not speaking of salvation issues - but God’s choosing men for service not salvation … which is a completely different issue. God does use men, and harden and soften their hearts for His service - I have no problem with that. But that does not cover the issue of man’s eternal soul. [5] As I said before - you will have passages that refer to God’s keeping power - and I have no problem with that. God always keeps His side of the covenant. He will never let go of us - but we can take ourselves out of His hand. God will seal us with the Holy Spirit - but as with any seal - that can be broken by ourselves. You ask “how can we fall away?” How, indeed? But God warns us repeatedly that we can. To believe in Calvinism you have to ignore vast passages of Scripture (such as the OT and NT warnings against falling from grace). "He who endures to the end will be saved" - which indicates that he who fails to endure will be lost. "If you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.” We can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. We must "believe and go on believing" (present continuous tense) in order to be saved. You say "if we are saved, we are eternally secure AND we will continue in the faith." If that were the case … there would be no reason for all these many warnings in Scripture to the contrary. It is extremely foolish and dangerous to simply ignore these warnings. In John 15 Jesus is speaking to the saved, and warning them of the possibility of their failing to continue to abide in the Vine (Jesus) and so be lost eternally. Notice they are all “branches” (saved) and are all “in the Vine” (Jesus) … but those who do not CONTINUE in Jesus end up in hell. It doesn’t say they were never saved - or they would not have been “in the Vine.” I have to go out now …. But tomorrow I will give you more proof for John 15. God bless you.
@@justinbrentwood1299 Just another quick comment before I go (something I had written previously) .... (back tomorrow) Hebrews 6:4-6: “For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt.” This passage has to be describing Christians. Why do I say this? [1] They are called “brothers” in chapter 3 verse 1. [2] They have “once been enlightened.” [3] They have “tasted the heavenly gift.” [4] They have “shared in the Holy Spirit.” [5] They have “tasted the goodness of the word of God.” [6] They have “tasted of the powers of the age to come.” [7] They have “fallen away.” Only someone already IN the faith can fall away FROM it. [8] It speaks of them being “restored AGAIN to repentance.” They have already repented once. Are unbelievers brought to repentance? Hebrews 10:26-31: “For IF we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge His people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Grace is not a licence to sin. Here we see true Christians (“His people” who were “sanctified”) who deliberately and wilfully continue to sin, receiving a fearful expectation of judgement.
The discussion begins by acknowledging Charles Spurgeon's well-documented struggle with depression. He believed sharing his experience could offer consolation to others facing similar battles, emphasizing that experiencing melancholy was not unusual, even for someone as joyfully perceived as he was. After this Kyle goes into read some of his own journal entries from seasons of darkness that he had faced.
I really needed this today. Have been falling back to the same sin i once had victory over and its really depressing. God help me its hard
I don't know if the person who chooses these clips and puts them on TH-cam reads these comments. If you do brother or sister I praise God for you. I am in a terrible season just now and hearing this helps. Thank you.
May God be with you brother or sister stay strong in God
GOD bless Brother White for opening up & sharing his humanity. I have no doubt GOD allowed him to be used to bless people of Faith struggling with depression. To GOD BE THE GLORY!
🙏🏼🕊🙌🏼🔥
So very excellent and helpful, thank you for being so vulnerable.
Thank you for sharing this!
Amen.
Thank you so much for this. Will you be uploading the second part on this TH-cam channel or do we have to download the app to get part 2? Sorry if stupid question.
It's in the description.
I have decided to present my previously deleted comments for your consideration.
Could not Spurgeon and Kyle both have the same reason for their depression? Could it not be an inner doctrinal conflict? Is this such a strange conclusion to come to?
I attended a Reformed Church for many years - and loved the biblical teaching on godly living ... However, I became more and more disillusioned with the "doctrines of grace." I then spent three years studying deeply and comparing Scripture with Reformed theology. During this time I felt quite depressed. I consulted my pastor regarding these doctrines - but (maybe because I am a woman) he did not want to discuss my dilemma and examine the doctrines in depth. And, in one way, I did not want to know the truth and be forced to change my viewpoint (and so leave the church).
However, in the end, God revealed that I had been deceived by these doctrines - and the wonderful sense of relief and release was tremendous. My depression lifted and my inner peace returned.
What was the conflict that caused this depression? When I read God's Word it told me that Jesus died for all mankind - yet my pastor said He only died for a few people that He had chosen - and for no good reason had damned the rest to hell.
Calvinism teaches OSAS, yet Jesus tells us that if we do not continue to "abide in the Vine we will be eternally lost (John 15).
Calvinism teaches that we cannot respond to the gospel - because we are "dead in sin" and anyway that would indicate "good works" .. yet God has given us a conscience and repeatedly COMMANDS us to listen to the gospel, consider it, to respond to it, to make a choice, to believe it, and to repent and receive Christ as Lord and Saviour (John 1:9-13). God cannot believe for us or repent for us - we have a CHOICE to make. On nearly every page of the Bible God calls us to make a decision by our own free will - both before we are saved - and afterwards. "CHOOSE this day whom you will serve" - either the devil or the Lord. He has granted us the precious gift of free will - if He had not, He could not legally judge us on the Last Day.
There is no way we can save ourselves .... but we are commanded to respond to the calling and drawing of God in the gospel message. If not, what is the purpose of evangelism?
I am not comparing Calvinism in any way with the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are lost) ... but those poor souls (and Mormons) seem very depressed - because of the unbiblical doctrines they have been forced to believe. They are believing man-made doctrines and rejecting God's truth. This can only result in inner conflict, anxiety and depression.
Please prayerfully consider what I have said my brothers and sisters.
I agree that bad doctrine results in confusion. Our faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), and knowing the truth sets us free from sin (John 8:31-32). With conflicting doctrine, the very foundation of our lives in put into question and can cause depression without an immediate answer. Now, in many cases, it's not a clash of only doctrine that causes this, but sin as well. When one lives and thereby defines themselves with a sin while their doctrine condemns it, it brings about a similar contradiction.
Now, in your case, you came to the conclusion that these "doctrines of grace" were incorrect, that, broadly speaking, we have to act and persevere instead of God. I would like to present a view to you and see what you think. Generally, I don't believe that either side is wrong. I believe both.
There is an amazing duality of God doing things and believers doing things in salvation. God commands everyone to repent (Acts 17:30), but we can't come to Jesus unless the Father calls us (John 6:44). It is God who works in us to be holy (Philippians 2:13), but we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). God will keep us in the faith that he started us in until the day of Christ, bearing fruits (Philippians 1:6; John 15:16), but we must hold fast until the end (Hebrews 3:13-14). We have been sealed by the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance of the kingdom of God (Ephesians 1:13-14), but James indicates that we can save believers from falling away from the faith and save their soul from death (James 5:19-20).
This clash of us working versus God working is so common in the Bible, and a lot of it comes from the minimally understood relation between God and freewill. The answer is sometimes to choose a side. For example, there is no way to reconcile that people can't lose righteousness and that people can. One must be false. I believe that we can't lose our salvation (we can talk about this more if you want; I also want to make clear that I'm not saying we can live in sin and be saved). But for many other situations, I believe both are true. For example, only those who come to God are saved, and only those who repent and believe are saved. To say that either one is wrong would contradict the Bible. What about the person who isn't called but repents and believes? According to what we've established, they don't exist. Why? It seems possible. This is where that total depravity doctrine comes in (although, depending on the wording, I don't fully believe it). We physically can do it, but we never will, not because we can't, but because we won't, which, by implication, is because of our great sinfulness. I hope this inspires some interesting thoughts.
@@justinbrentwood1299 Thank you very much for your reply Justin. You have clearly explained the dilemma, and that is the conflict (that God has allowed) in Scripture. Maybe it is a test from the Lord to get us to dig deeper into His Word and also to see if we can show grace to one another as we grapple with the doctrines!
We Christians, therefore, have to weigh Scripture with Scripture and make a decision. When I attended a Reformed Church I was not a Calvinist … So I had more of an open mind regarding the subject. But when I saw the real dilemma … and that I had to make a choice, I considered both sides of the argument carefully. But I kept changing sides because I wanted Calvinism to be true. In the end (realising there were godly Christians in both camps) I prayed that the Lord would reveal His truth … as (in the end) I didn’t care which side was correct - but only that I had God’s truth. You seem well balanced - but so many Calvinists simply believe what they are told, never examining conflicting opinions, and are never willing to change their viewpoint.
I have been found wanting in many areas in the past 40 years (Word of Faith teaching, Christian Zionism etc.) and the dear Lord has led me out by developing my discernment. That is not to say that I am automatically correct regarding Calvinism - but by impartially weighing up both sides in the Old and New Testaments, I believe the “Doctrines of Grace” fail in many ways.
Here are some comments:
[1] You are correct regarding moral sin also causing conflict. But, if we have believed an incorrect doctrine (and teach others) could that not be a sin also?
[2] Are both sides of the argument correct? It would be nice to think so … and I can see where you are coming from. It is correct that we work .. and that God works in us. But is this the case in all of the ‘doctrines of grace’?
[3] God calls (correct) ... but we must respond. Therefore, although we are "dead in sin" we are not SO dead as to be unable to respond to God in faith. If we can respond to the gospel (as an alcoholic atheist is able to take himself to an AA meeting and commit to a programme of rehabilitation), then we must have free will … or God would not repeatedly ask us to “choose.” The important thing is … and we both agree … that it is God alone who saves and not we ourselves. But I believe He responds to our faith or our desire for it.
“He … the true light, which gives light to EVERYONE, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. But to all who did RECEIVE Him, who BELIEVED in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD” (John 1:8-13). The order appears to be … BELIEVE, RECEIVE … and then GOD SAVES… Forgive the capitals … but it makes things clearer.
[4] Chosen by God. I believe God COULD sovereignly choose to save some and damn others to hell - if He so desired. But the whole idea of Him asking us all to carefully consider salvation (Luke 14:28-33) before responding to the gospel, and His calling us all to repent, to believe, to choose - points to the fact that we obviously must have a choice in the matter. It is important to remember that “God does not show favouritism” (Rom. 2:11 - see also, Eph. 6:9 and Acts 10:34). The whole Calvinist idea of God arbitrarily choosing one person against another would contradict God’s impartiality.
I believe the Bible shows that the gospel is given freely to ALL mankind. “The grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to ALL people” (Titus 2:11). “God desires ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). If God’s desire is for ALL men to be saved (and He could make this possible by choosing all men and damning none) … why then are not all men saved? It can only be because they choose of their own volition to refuse the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. All my Calvinist friends who evangelise - offer salvation as a free gift to be received. They never say, “To be honest, I do not know if you have been chosen by God or not, but just in case you are one of the elect, give your life to Jesus.” They never tell people God may have chosen them for damnation.
Therefore, I believe we ALL have the opportunity to respond to God in faith - and will be damned if we refuse to do so. Would God be just - if He only called some lost sinners to Himself - but allowed the other lost sinners to be damned without the opportunity to make a response to the Gospel? How would this work out on Judgement Day? Would God be able to justly send a lost sinner (who had never heard the gospel) to hell? Yes, he would deserve hell as a sinner - but surely he would also deserve the right to hear the gospel - if others had been given that opportunity?
Just saying God is sovereign … doesn’t eliminate all these problems. It doesn’t eradicate His justice and allow Him to give unfair preferential treatment to a certain group of people at the expense of another… Because that would deny His very nature.
[5] The ‘Perseverance of the Saints.’ I believe this form of OSAS is the lie of Satan in the Garden of Eden … “You shall not surely die” (Gen. 3:4). This is the one doctrine that nearly all Christians believe and argue most vehemently for. You say, “For example, there is no way to reconcile that people can't lose righteousness and that people can. One must be false.” But maybe this can be reconciled too?
Once again there is a dilemma … Does God save us and keep us? Yes, most definitely. I believe we are in a covenant with God … and when He saves us He promises to keep us, never leave us, and bring us through to full salvation. God will never break His promise - so all the Scriptures you would offer - show this to be true. However, there are two parties in a covenant relationship. God cannot break His covenant with us - but we can break ours with Him. This is clearly seen in the O.T. where God always remained faithful to Israel - but His people did not remain faithful to Him. When they failed to keep His commandments they were damned - despite His positive promises to them. Yes, we are eternally secure in God … IF we continue in the faith, IF we keep His commandments … That seems to be the way to reconcile the two opposing doctrines.
Tim Conway preaches wonderful sermons (aren’t they all) that appear to refute OSAS … and offers the many warnings in Scripture against the doctrine … but he always ends in the last few minutes with a caveat, saying … “but, of course, we cannot lose our salvation in Christ.” However, he never, ever explains why. Why would God give warnings … if there was NO possibility of forfeiting our salvation? And why is Tim always so earnest in his warnings to Christians?
I believe our Lord Jesus explains the dilemma regarding the OSAS issue clearly in John 15 … but whenever I have mentioned this in the YT comments section … there are hardly any constructive replies. Maybe you would like to discuss John 15:1-10? God bless you.
@@Ancient-Paths 1. Yes, it would certainly be an error, and depending on exactly what is being taught, teaching someone a false doctrine could very easily be a sin.
2. I think that each "doctrine of grace" should be evaluated separately. They are similar, but they are different enough that we can't just group them all into the same answer. I wouldn't say that both sides are right in every case, such as OSAS, which I'll explain a little bit further in 5.
3. We agree.
4. We agree in that God could sovereignly choose who to save and who to damn, that God calls us to use our free will to choose him, and that God would be just to condemn a sinner for his sins. However, you say that everyone deserves the right to hear the gospel, but I do not believe this is the case. Of course, it would be amazing for everyone to hear the gospel, but God doesn't have to make sure that everyone hears it. He didn't have to give the gospel at all, and in the same way that I can give a gift to any homeless person I please, God can give the gospel to anyone he pleases. There's nothing forcing him to share the gospel to everyone, and this is what we see in reality too, that some people die without hearing the gospel. God is impartial, but this means that he won't judge different people by different standards because they're different. It doesn't mean that he will give everyone the same opportunities of grace.
Here's an interesting scripture. Romans 9:14-23 says,
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.
We have an example. The Bible says that God raised up Pharaoh for destruction, to proclaim his name in the Earth. But Paul goes further to generalize this to everyone, that God can have mercy on whom he wants to show mercy and can harden whomever he wants to harden. People may ask, "How can God judge us if we're just following his plan," to which Paul answers that he has the authority to do so as the creator. Of course, this doesn't reject the idea that we have free will to do good and bad, to reject or respond to the Gospel or the knowledge that God gives us through our conscience (Romans 2:14-15). It just shows the complex relation between free will and God's sovereignty, that we have free will to do the right thing AND God chooses who gets mercy and who gets hardened.
5. The problem that I have with saying that, if we continue in the faith, we are eternally secure, is that it puts a continuing condition on being eternally secure when there are some passages in the Bible that say that we are eternally secure when we are saved. For example, Romans 8:28-30 says that God predestinates someone, calls them, justifies them, and then glorifies them. There's no room for someone to be saved after being predestinated and called, and then fall away from the faith here. Or, how can we be born again of the Spirit (John 1:12-13), sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), kept in God's powerful hand (John 10:27-30), and then fall away? I believe that the correct way to reconcile this is not, "if we continue in the faith, we are eternally secure," but, "if we are saved, we are eternally secure AND we will continue in the faith." For those who don't continue, as 1 John 3:6 would say, they never knew Jesus and were therefore never saved.
John 15:1-10 describes how those who don't bear fruit are taken away, so we must bear fruit and abide in him. This doesn't contradict OSAS as I have presented it because there will never be a case of a true believer who doesn't abide in Jesus. So why did Jesus say this? He's giving us guidance and a way to reject the doctrine that we can continue in sin and be saved. He's making sure to be clearly understood that we can't continue in sin and be saved, that we must abide in him and his will all our lives.
@@justinbrentwood1299 Thank you for your reply Justin.
[2] Yes, it is too vast a set of doctrines to deal with too broadly - but one leads on to another. The “depravity of man” leads on to (what I believe to be) the disparaging of the free will of man - because if you are utterly and completely “dead in sin” (which I do not see in Scripture) you cannot possibly have a will that can search for God, come to God, cry out to God, believe the gospel, and make choices (which God calls us to do throughout Scripture). I believe we are all “dead in sin” … but this cannot possibly mean we cannot respond to the gospel - or God would not have told us to do so.
[4] You do not believe that God has to give the gospel to all mankind. In a sense, no He doesn’t - but we believe that for different reasons.
I believe He doesn’t - because He knows who WILL be saved and lost (even when they never hear the gospel) because of His foreknowledge - so, in effect, only they need to hear the gospel. With that foreknowledge He then declares some saved (whom He calls chosen or elect) and some lost.
The Calvinist, however, believes that God has predestined (ignoring man’s free will) some for eternal salvation and some for eternal damnation before they are even born. They would not all have to hear the gospel message - because their destiny has already been decided.
Romans 9 and the story of Pharaoh, btw, are not speaking of salvation issues - but God’s choosing men for service not salvation … which is a completely different issue. God does use men, and harden and soften their hearts for His service - I have no problem with that. But that does not cover the issue of man’s eternal soul.
[5] As I said before - you will have passages that refer to God’s keeping power - and I have no problem with that. God always keeps His side of the covenant. He will never let go of us - but we can take ourselves out of His hand. God will seal us with the Holy Spirit - but as with any seal - that can be broken by ourselves.
You ask “how can we fall away?” How, indeed? But God warns us repeatedly that we can. To believe in Calvinism you have to ignore vast passages of Scripture (such as the OT and NT warnings against falling from grace). "He who endures to the end will be saved" - which indicates that he who fails to endure will be lost. "If you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.” We can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. We must "believe and go on believing" (present continuous tense) in order to be saved.
You say "if we are saved, we are eternally secure AND we will continue in the faith." If that were the case … there would be no reason for all these many warnings in Scripture to the contrary. It is extremely foolish and dangerous to simply ignore these warnings.
In John 15 Jesus is speaking to the saved, and warning them of the possibility of their failing to continue to abide in the Vine (Jesus) and so be lost eternally. Notice they are all “branches” (saved) and are all “in the Vine” (Jesus) … but those who do not CONTINUE in Jesus end up in hell. It doesn’t say they were never saved - or they would not have been “in the Vine.”
I have to go out now …. But tomorrow I will give you more proof for John 15. God bless you.
@@justinbrentwood1299 Just another quick comment before I go (something I had written previously) .... (back tomorrow)
Hebrews 6:4-6:
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt.”
This passage has to be describing Christians. Why do I say this?
[1] They are called “brothers” in chapter 3 verse 1.
[2] They have “once been enlightened.”
[3] They have “tasted the heavenly gift.”
[4] They have “shared in the Holy Spirit.”
[5] They have “tasted the goodness of the word of God.”
[6] They have “tasted of the powers of the age to come.”
[7] They have “fallen away.” Only someone already IN the faith can fall away FROM it.
[8] It speaks of them being “restored AGAIN to repentance.” They have already repented once. Are unbelievers brought to repentance?
Hebrews 10:26-31:
“For IF we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge His people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Grace is not a licence to sin. Here we see true Christians (“His people” who were “sanctified”) who deliberately and wilfully continue to sin, receiving a fearful expectation of judgement.