The First Post-React Framework Just Launched
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- Solid's development cycle has been incredible to watch, and SolidStart is key to it's future. Really hyped that Javascript keeps getting more interesting.
Check out Ryan's TH-cam, he's great @ryansolid
SOURCE
www.solidjs.co...
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S/O Ph4se0n3 for the awesome edit 🙏
new javascript framework before gta 6 is.. normal
if it wouldn't be JS there are other post-react frameworks as well like Mau+ Blazor and Kotlin 2. I really feeling he is digging a hohle with this.
>Excited for new framework
>Read JS
>Pass
I think it would be abnormal if there wasn't any new frameworks before GTA 6
Its not new, its long time expected .. just meta for solid .. it's meta-new 🙌
This is why I left web dev. I'm tired of not being able to become an expert in anything without going out of relevance or reaching limitations.
I look up to ecosystem engineers like Evan You, Daniel Roe, Ryan Carniato, and Anthony Fu. These guys are working so hard not to build their own kingdom but to push the web forward. I don’t get tons of opportunity to play with next gen frameworks but Solid is top of my list of what I want to try next. So glad you’re supporting him and keeping us up to date on Solid!❤
NextJS is basically its own kingdom now.
@@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384 It's true, unfortunately
"It's no secret" mentioned
Why do I hear it in Primeagen's voice?
@@snowman4933 Primeagen mentioned
@@oM477o lets go
I'm jealous how Theo is telling about Nitro without mentioning Nuxt and Nuxt team. These guys are pushing so many good stuff in the JS community right now.
Ryan has the best takes on this space. His reluctance to even build a "meta framework" or whatever we're calling these makes him perfect for the job. Interchangeable primitives is crucial.
Moving my existing projects from vanilla JS to React was a bit challenging, since I was trying to learn React at the same time. I've been using SolidJS the last few months to wrap my head around the concepts that are similar, and it has been eye-opening for me! From personal experience, I think using SolidJS to learn React is great for people starting to learn more, connecting the dots between what makes all of them similar and different really helps you see the strengths and weaknesses that each option has. Thank you Theo and Ryan!
lol Brandon why do I always stumble across you everywhere on the internet 🤣
@@BenjaminAster epiiiic 😂
another framework letsgooo, cant wait for the next framework tomorrow!
bro is the fan of everything.
Lots of exciting tech out there
"exciting" lol
only react world.. bro is blind to anything else
Just like how it should be @@danvilela
@@danvilelathis is literally not react. no? 😆
I knew 11 of those features, and am totally interested in Out-of-order streaming. Would love to see a follow-up
I feel like Nuxt deserves an honorable mention here
Theodore simply dislikes anything that doesn't smell like React... (or anyone that hasn't personally sniffed the rear of his act..)
@@pythagoran Ya I can see that. Nuxt and Vue did a lot of the javascript ecosystem. But some people still wont agree.
As a huge Vue Nuxt fan I'm always on the edge of my seat with Theo. Like this is part where he says it. I don't believe he dislikes them he just hasn't used them.
Solid is much more exciting than Next and the performance is just crazy
If you think this performance is crazy look at Astro, Svelte, or even vanilla JavaScript 🌝
Next js could be built on vite , nuxt is built on vite and many other frameworks too ... I don't know what excuses they are giving but it feels like they don't want to use creation of evan you ( the author of vue js)
Because they spent a lot of money and time on creating Turbopack. If you want to use Vite with SSR, then Remix (next React Router v7) probably is the best solution
One thing I really hate about the Next team is how much they value having their own thing versus participating in the ecosystem. Vite works; almost everyone using Webpack has already switched to Vite. The fact that the Next team just went ahead and made their own thing rather than adopting the current web standard baffles me.
I think Turbopack is going to be a successor of a webpack in Next.js once its stable. Both Next.js and Turbo is built by Vercel. I see this is the only reason not to rewrite the entire framework around Vite - they're building their own bundler/builder.
@@khaldounal-nuaimi3594Vite was released, 4 years ago, the oldest stable release was 3 years ago. Thats also when the first non stable turbopack version was released.
At this point, nobody really had adopted vite and it might not have fit all the requirements of vercel. They are also a cloud provider, maybe they wanted something that integrates nicely with their infrastructure. So yes, they created their own thing. Thats how innovation works.
Its totally fine to do your own implementation, especially in this case. It would be a different story if you were somehow forced to use it and relearn anything or if it would be some proprietary implementation. But as it stands, most developers wont even notice the difference between vite and turbopack.
@khaldounal-nuaimi3594 So from your logic, Evan should have contributed to React instead of building Vue.
Solid is the only JS UI framework that deserves to win IMO. Too many other frameworks stray away from vanilla JS in an effort to make working with the framework more ergonomic, which will ultimately lead to the same annoying inflexible foot-gun abstractions like React's hooks. Vanilla JS offers you the most amount of flexibility possible and is still ergonomic if you just embrace the language and improve the language if need be (which is what the Signals proposal is doing).
I'm curious, in what way does Solid stay close to vanilla JS? Maybe especially compared to Svelte?
@@niklasmattsson7862 There are a few different ways to view these frameworks as "closer to vanilla". Svelte has opted to wrdte closer to idomatic js hiding its runtime mechanisms behind the svelte language and compiler, to some this is closer to js to others it feels further from js since it stops behaving like js despite looking like it as it is its own language. The other side of this is how react and solid work where outside of the jsx the js you write is the js that is output which is where the "its just js" thing comes from, some feel like react feels a bit less like vanilla js because you have to be so concious of of the react runtime and hooking into into the component lifecycle (it also becomes more like svelte 3/4 with the forget compiler too where your non-jsx component code is now also transformed to work better within reacts world of updates)
@@niklasmattsson7862 I would suggest last Ryan Carniato stream, where he talked about very deep concepts, and one thing he always says, svelte seems like vue but acts very similar to react, which is why he isnt satisfied with svelte. I dont have the technical explication to say why solid is closer to js, but in every benchmark, solid is closer to JS in almost every parameter
Nice! I am happily building my app with SolidJS. I don't think I will need Solid Start to boost performance in my case, but I am so glad for Ryan and the team - Solid Start looks like a significant accomplishment!
Pro tip: when you open a link in a new tab in Arc Browser, you can hit control + tab to go to that opened link immediately without needing to open the side bar :)
Thanks for that tip
Or just by clicking on the link with MOUSE3(pressing scroll button) key
sometimes when you get excited about some features, it just seems they already exist in Nuxt like Vite, nitro, opt ou file routing etc
I think the distinction of the filesystem router is not just that the filesystem roihes are optional, it's that having the filesystem routes created by the bundler be separate to the router allows other routers to be used while also utilising the filesystem routes
Theodore wouldn't know that because he's a shill for Vercel and React. His job literally depends on ignoring and even bashing competing tech stacks.
and yet, at the end of the day, we're still ju(st largely creating CRUD websites with small differences in interactivity / styling. Thank myself every week for stopping front-end development after learning enough JS to ship useable websites. The entire ecosystem / industry is the biggest hedonic treadmill of all time.
I dont wanna hear about another js framework I swear to god
@@samuel.adewaleThen don't watch these videos? Why are people always complaining about this, when at the end of the day you can just focus on React or whatever you fancy? Twitter hype ≠ market share.
You're not forced to watch this like you're Alex from A Clockwork Orange
I like the js fws
I build a lot more complex stuff, and I need such impovements(or as u call it overengeniering) - aint noobody forcing you to use this, build simple html pages, serve from static CDN and call it a day
These comments are exhausting and uncreative. Some of us actually care about the evolution of tooling for building complex web apps. Not just CRUD websites.
Looks like a pretty solid start, ngl
th-cam.com/video/-QRZpligDOs/w-d-xo.html
Not only have I been using solid for the last year and a half, but I've recently started using solid start and I absolutely love it 😄!
Now JS is becoming PHP with Server Actions on the client-side.
As usual, a really solid post from Ryan, thank you very much for these video about it Theo :D
I never heard of the "Out-of-Order-Streaming" stuff. I know the out of order execution of assembly instructions, but not such things at Streaming level ^^'
I guess it would be an ability to send chunks for later part of bundle if it already known, so that on the client you would have it already when you need it for rendering rather then waiting for full request waterfall
I’m moving in the exact opposite direction. Removing tools, removing configs, decoupling, leveraging native web tech, saying no to new things that don’t have an earth-shattering effect on code quality and performance. Backwards is the way forwards. The influencers don’t talk web standards and design patterns because you can’t make money off it. Alex Russell was right, we are truly in a market for lemons.
I don't know about out-of-order streaming, but appreciate any content you push. Keep at it!
Making Solid's syntax just like an existing popular framework (React) makes a lots of sense. Less learning curve for devs, less migration efforts, less time/money consumption. If all computer languages used the same syntax (more or less), most of devs would be full stack devs and it would save lots of efforts and time/money for companies as well. Devs could do lots of things in across many fields. Only in ideal world.
Aren't a great portion of languages have a C-based syntax?
@senbonzakura662 what is not to understand? Syntax of C, JS, C++, Java, C# is borderline the same.
@@naughtiousmaximus7853 yes but no. A JS developer cannot become a C++ programmer overnight.
@@naturegogglebut a c++ programmer can become a JS developer overnight😂
@@naturegoggle because syntax isn't the problem that stops people from becoming full-stack.
Even the languages aren't a problem anymore I think. JS devs can write both front and back in their language, and they do. And now with HTMX any backend developer can write full-stack apps without having to learn JS.
The main reason is the separation of work and being able to perform very strongly in a narrow field
I’ve been using it a lot. I love the framework!
12:21 "things like TSX and JSX transpilers just work" - huh? no they don't? existing tools for TSX/JSX either implement the standard React transform (which doesn't work with Solid) or requires you to disable the transform and then post-process the emitted JSX a second time with the Solid transform via Babel. The only reason I used Babel was for Internet Explorer, and those days are over - the only reason I'd use Babel now is for Solid. It used to support the standard React transform, but I'm pretty sure they dropped that, it never really worked. Maybe you just meant the actual source code syntax can be parsed by other tools, like CSS-in-JS, etc.? Standard transpilers (ESBuild, SWC, TS in React mode, etc.) do not work with Solid.
17:35 at yusukebe (Yusuke Wada) HonoJS author which also SSR solidjs btw
Jees, I have not had breakfast yet and there is already another frikken framework out.
Rakkas had inline RPCs for quite a while already 😎 though I'm seriously excited for SolidStart 1.0 🎉
Damn I was just starting a new project with solidjs. Maybe I'll use this instead
lol. what do we do
Why are we moving more towards server rendering? What's the main benefit or what are we trying to avoid from client rendering? (honest question)
What do you mean by first post-react framework?
A way to get clicks on the video
Yeah what does this mean?
@@Gordonfreems No it just means from Modern to Post Modern. Use some common sense.
Because React is the only one that users JSX and "OWNS" it, like, vue, svelte and other frameworks user almost their file extention, Solid uses JSX and uses JSX better than any other framework. If React wasnt a Meta product, maybr it would be easier to front end devs to abandon React and use better JSX frameworks, I hope react dies like angular died, but there are too many cheer leader in react.
Why do I feel like we're slowly coming full circle to where we were with PHP 15 years ago, except the stacks are now full out lasagna with a dozen layers and a subideal runtime?
What does the title mean to say? I'm new to all this is it like an advancement that doesn't concern react? Like moving away from it?
The problem with building anything with these type of frameworks is that theres no resources for them. If you decide to build something with this you are basically on your own.
out-of-order streaming!!!!
The + in front is not so great. It makes people think it's a great idea to mix framework files with regular component files just because the + will make the visual differentiation. It can easily lead into unneecessary coupling.
having to talk about tech called Bling and Blitz in the same sentence is just peak webdev
Been using it since Beta 2. So….. Happy. :)
Ryan is one of the coolest people in the tech world. Happy to see Solid Start react 1.0
2:37 my god webdevs really need to discover blue noise, the banding on these hero gradients is getting out of hand
if I'm not using Vue i will definitely go with solid
New JS framework again while I'm struggling on my leetcode problems for days. Perhaps, I will let this one slide too
Yes please let's talk about out of order streaming!
The idea of putting server-code in the same file as client-code seems scary. Even with file-level directives you can run into bundling issues right now.
with same file intermingling do you just have to trust that the bundler will figure out the correct imports and never include server dependencies in client bundle?
poison pills for sensitive routines
I want to use Solid. I love the ideas but React has a massive ecosystem and talent pool.
Will SolidStart work as a React framework out of the box? Seems like it
Would definitely watch an out of order streaming video 😁
it seems like almost every day there is a new framework that replaces the previous 😁
i think i will make my next project with solid start
Reply 1 for a vid on out of order streaming or any and all of the concepts mentioned.
Great video but react is staring to become more and more unpopular in enterprise organizations due to framework jumping around. You have remix , next , this and more. It’s pretty sad they haven’t really mature over the years
Don’t worry, we don’t have to know it. There’s no jobs in it or even Vue or Svelte. Hell, possible at all.
i think i'm just going to become an assembly developer, at least i know there's only one and it will always work
There are more assembler languages than there are javascript frameworks
@@viktorvsk no, there's only one assembly language. It does differ in synax and other minor things between processors, but it basically never changes.
@@fronix5060 then, there's only one javascript language. It does differ in syntax and other minor things between browsers, runtimes and frameworks, but it basically never changes and for multiple decades it stays backwards compatible.
Same could also be said about any programming languages though, javascript is basically a c-like language that does differ in syntax
@@viktorvsk it changes all the time
@@fronix5060is load/store on ARM vs indirection on x86 not a fairly major difference? placing return address in link register vs putting it on the stack? there are a lot of more niche instructions that are only available on some architectures as well. i've seen 6502 assembly and it looks horrifying compared to doing the same stuff on a modern architecture. Also it's not true that assembly languages never change, new generations of CPUs often come with new instructions.
Than you for this video. Now i can eat and learn about SolidStart
Very curious about OOO Streaming!
Just what we all need. Another framework doing the same thing slightly differently.
I've heard that Vite is French and pronounced like "fit" but with a "v".
Big fan
NEXT 15 IS NOW OBSOLETE!!! 😂❤
I predict the time for SPA first frameworks with "use server" is going to come to a juddering halt almost as soon as it's begun. I've been using a framework with good SPA/Island support & HTMX-like Partial support for a while: Fresh.
Almost all my client-side code ends up replaced with server rendered Partials and with that the code complexity/optimisation/security concerns evaporate. Only use small pockets (islands) of client side code for UI features that can't be on the server (events handling). Even my toasts are server rendered!
Also not sure what qualifies this as the "First Post-React Framework"? If it's JSX based/React-like frameworks, well Fresh as a Preact Framework beats this by a couple of years.
PPR with server component and server actions. That will be the state of the art for UX perf and DX too
Are you happy that you pay money so users see your toasts rendered on a server? If user would get cut out off internet, there isn't goin to be notifications about failed actions???
@@nazarshvets7501 I bet my SSR toasts use far less power than your over-fetched json. If they lose internet they get a picture of a dinosaur, as god intended.
@@autofires sure bud
@@nazarshvets7501 keep naysayin without actual experience, see how that works out for you "bud" 😂
Wow, writing server code directly in functions IN CLIENT CODE. What could go wrong?
make a video about out-of-order-streaming please
Insert XKCD comic about creating the new standard to unify all the old ones.
That’s how innovation happens though. The new replaces the old. If we didn’t do this we’d be stuck in the past.
these serverside javascript frameworks is literally just reinventing PHP.....
I'm not surprised another frontend framework
Bro didn’t you release this like 6months ago? I could have sworn you talked about a new JS framework not that long ago…
wasnt 1.0
Ok,u need to explain OOO😅
Hot take, “if you just create hello world, it should be 5kB of JavaScript“ 😂
another js framework, how exciting
so frontend now is just like what codeigniter is back then..
JavaScript is just becoming a more and more inconvenient PHP.
PHP sucks way more
Congrats on the release but theres 0 companies hiring requiring this so im not going to invest time in it.. vue/react is where the money is!
"No matching jobs found. "
Meta framework
Join Svelte
Senior developers : here we go again 🙄
everytime i watch one of your videos i get more and more FOMO like I'm not up to date on the latest technologies and terminologies... makes me feel like crap all the time
Why in the front end we expext there's a post react? Can't you guys just stick one?
"Now you can have server code right in the middle of your client code!"
Why?
Theo would you be open to having a look at a Framework I've built? Not for a video review or anything like that but a professional insight.
It's vanilla. It has SEO, CSP setups, plugin capability, route registering, state caching, immutable functions, and helper functions for fetch api calls, selective function reruns, static components, dynamic components, interval registering/deregistering, cache flags.
TIL the `satisfies` operator.
It is crazy to me you like SolidStart but not Qwik.
I lost my hopes on Qwik. Still very weak
Ok, I’m officially done with JavaScript, back to PHP it is for me fellas. Acting as server side rendering is this new and revolutionary concept 🤦♂️
Im gonna keep my js for frontend stuff only. Thanks
Just don't add any typical backend stuff and just fetch data instead. This is just frontend.
I'd still have an API backend. But the whole keeping them intertwined is definitely easier for noobies, but a bad idea in general
My prediction is that only three developers will adopt this framework.
oh don't be so pessimistic! i think at least five developers will use it, maybe three will stick with it for longer than a week (maybe two)
You’re either a framework fanboy (svelte most likely) or a JS fatiguer. If 3, 5, 10…1 million people use it and get value…what’s wrong with that?
I thought the JS ecosystem was stable? ;) On the server side we are using 18 year old Java code and it still compiles and runs. We would NEVER use JS on server side.
Well yes, React has been around for years. This is all the early adopters stuff. And 70% of the web still uses jQuery or whatever. When people complain about the "unstable" javascript ecosystem it means they spend too much time on twitter. There are already solid solutions out there, the safe bet is React, since it's industry standard
Nobody is getting fired for choosing React. You're going to get serious push-back trying to sell using something like SolidJS at most companies.
Most of our front end development (95%) is for internal dashboards etc. We're moving these over to Java/Python + HTMX (no node based projects). This has been fantastic as all the devs can do all the coding.
Out of order streaming! Plzzz
Ah great! Another JavaScript framework. Just what we needed.
It’s not a new framework. It’s been here a while. It’s just the official release now
I still firmly believe taking js out of the browser was a crime against humanity.
Funny how when nextjs came every développer in the comment sections of youtube tougth it was perfect. Now with tje new framework comming they are like "aktchually nexts js has some problemes" this is soo funny to me. I have been using react js for years now starting with class based components and switching to function. I really dont se the point of learning new js frameworks that really add nothing special
Maybe some rogue businesses or enthusiastic leads may use this framework but for me its a no-no especially now with the new React Compiler
Filerouter "no framework has done this ever before" svelte: am i a joke to you?
I was hawing a look at the swelte docs but I couldn't see if the filesystem router could export it's routes to be used by a different router. Am I mistaken on it not doing that? I found where you can add custom routes on top of the filesystem router though
It is a mess of logics. Development gets crazy
Pro tip: Use Angular and stop chasing "every-day-on-fly-fixes-for-stuff-that-never-worked-in-the-first-place".
Here we go again, fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place.
Vinxi documentation is beyond terrible. Seems like it was updated since I said it last time, but no much better yet. To use it for something meaningful you would need to be in contact with author personally for every tiniest thing
Hopefully you wouldn't have to directly interact with the vinxi layer too much, the same way most peaple spend very little time directly interacting with vite. Docs are definitely a weak area right now though.
Vinxi is a very new project that Nikhil Saraf made only within the last year or so. It does some very cool stuff to the point that some of its features are being added directly to vite. A side effect of it being so new is that they were updating it a lot as solid start was prepping to 1.0. I think given time the documentation will get better as things settle more and the project will get increasingly relied upon just like how the other projects, nitro + vito have been
If you're still trying to get a job as a developer don't waste your time in this framework. Use your time to actually improve as a swe, learn more javascript, ds/algo, networks, java, fkn operating systems anything other than wasting your time on yet another js framework regardless of how great it is
but... why lol
Counter reset mofos
37 seconds ago is crazy
Second one favorite framework? Haha only for this video