Do you need to use a TORQUE SCREWDRIVER when wiring consumer units?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Do you use a torque screwdriver when installing a consumer unit? In this video, Joe Robinson explores the topic with reference to BS7671 wiring regulations and manufacturers installation instructions.
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#efixx #electricians #circuitprotection
Everybody knows it’s 3 dugga dugga’s for incoming and 2 dugga dugga’s for mcb’s 😉😂
🤦♂️😂
Unbelievable 😂
😂😂
Then you can always go with FT if need to be sure ;)
I think you'll find that's for wheel nuts. 2 dugga's for Alloys and 3 for steel wheels
My Torque setting for boards is no6 on my 12v hilti drill driver
Most blokes only carry these in their tool bags to look pretty 😄🤣. Torque police will be around soon with the regs books 📚
I use mine on every board, I love it! Gives you that piece of mind and made me realise how much energy I was wasting over tightening connections 😬
As a licensed avionics engineer, I watch your videos with interest. In the aviation industry, where a torque loading is specified, it has always been a requirement that the torque wrench or screwdriver is within the calibration date AND checked for the specified torque loading using an Acratork rig (or equivalent) when securing the fastener. It makes sense for hard materials but when securing malleable materials, such as bare conductors, the torque figure might be "within specified limits" right up until the point where the material has all of its properties damaged to a critically dangerous point. It would be good to see if conductors are materially damaged from the lowest to highest specified torque loading figures specified.
This! Many people use a torque screwdriver that can vary in torque. But they never get it calibrated, like the tool manual says.
With all the push fittings and wago connectors will you not soon see screwdrivers and torque drivers becoming redundant.
I have 2. I love them. I like the noise they make. I just wish we could keep to SL/PZ2 all the time for electrical connections.
My biggest issue is I have a Draper brand torque screwdriver. I am working in a 630A 3 Phase Main cubical with Eaton MCCB's of various sizes which terminal is a Hexagonal screw to tighten the connections. Draper torque screwdriver set does not include a hexagonal attachment and having contacted Draper, they do not do a hexagonal attachment and gave me no solution to get the right torque setting. Do I really need to go out and buy another torque driver well over £100 or do I use my experience and tighten them by hand? This is the real world and manufacturers dont give a damn it seems.
To be fair, a torque screwdriver likely won't give you enough torque to tighten up an MCCB to manufacturers specifications. Most screwdrivers will give you 5nm tops and an MCCB will often be above that. You'd probably be better investing in a torque wrench if you do a lot of industrial work. Then you can buy any sort of generic attachment with a 1/2" drive to suit the breaker you're working on.
Don’t use one and note it as a departure on cert 🤷🏻♂️🤣
ok I'm an old fart but at 56 I was given the chance to retrain and go back to college the main reason for putting this comment on hear is I have seen others using torque screwdrivers on you tube and then just putting them away I've always been told that when you've finished with a torque anything that you release the pressure or set the torque back to 0 this stops the torque driver from going weak and then not giving you the correct settings and yes their mentions at college also I have been told that you are required to use them on your AS2 exam
Interesting points, we'll look into it. 😊
What about older consumer units mcbs, rccbs and rcbos and obsolete out of business brands with no toque settings what to do?
3 duggas should be fine
Isn't it someone creating a tool for a issue that wasn't an issue in the first place?
There was an issue, it called arcing , because of loose connections , and terminals not be tightened up
@@robertburrows6612 But was it an issue with the tightness of the screw or the screw itself, or was it a terminal block issue, a cable issue, workmanship issue.
I find most times I come across a mistake when doing a job it's more often me that's the issue.
Not really, setting terminals to the correct torque has been around for ages in industrial installations, particularly with big MCCBs. It's becoming increasingly important in domestic consumer units now.
All commerical and industrial sites have preventive maintenance schedules. And apart of the schedule electrical integrity inspections, with visual checks, torque/tightness checks (should tightened to ~80% of torque rating so you do not fatigue with over tightening) and current draw measurements, voltage imbalances, and maybe dialetric integrity tests. Nothing is set it and forget it.
@@MroAeon No, you set to the torque rating specified, not 80% of it ffs.
I hope we do not get to the point of needing to torque accessories in the future, not because I don't agree with the practice but I hope we see screw less terminals on all accessories in the near future negating the need to torque anything.
I have no clue why we have not seen this change happen already in the main stream just as MF junction boxes with their relevant connectors seem to have been adopted by many.
Also it has been shown screwed terminals can come come loose over time due to various factors where as many screw less alternatives do not exhibit the same behaviour.
I wonder if we will ever see a totally screw less consumer unit in the future?
Tune in tomorrow for some big news 🤫
@@efixx Now you are teasing 😄
I’ve said about screwless accessories for years. It would work on socket outlets well allowing three cables for Spurs from a ring with 2.5-4.0mm cables. The problem I see is certain accessories like a three plate pendant with possibly no room to expand from. I know three plating at the light is kinda being phased out in new builds but still needed for retro fit and personally I like to see a permanent live at light and neutral at switches for smart. Isolators for cookers and showers would be great screwless as we see so many burnt out due to loose connections
Use it . Yes ....( Although Overpriced )
Test it ( pull lightly on . )
Torque it .
Test it - ( pull lightly on .)
Use your initiative and spidey senses .
The question is why would you not use it? Can't stand the ignorance of Some of the older generation ( no offence ). People are too stuck in their ways " I've never had a loose connection in 30 years . It's like doing difficult maths in your head rather than using a calculator a poor analogy I know . This tool reduces the chance of human error people are almost offended by this tool.
Best
Matt
They can give a false sense of security. Having your torque screwdriver click and just assuming all is good is worse practice than using a fixed screwdriver and giving it all a good check over to ensure tightness. Ideally you'd probably use both. Fixed driver to get everything to a "it's not loose" torque and allow the conductors to do their initial movement, then go back over and torque everything up to the required spec.
I imagine that if all electricians suddenly switched to torque drivers tomorrow there would be more loose connections than there are today.
Luckily being retired I don't need to buy one !
Ah, c'mon, everyone loves a new tool!
I’m suprised to see that there isn’t already torque settings for sockets and switches, however I’ve just seen the new screwless sockets which could be the future.
Exciting
It'll be interesting to see if manufacturers will require accessories to be done up to specific torque values. I suspect it will happen in time. We'll see!
PS the only problem I had with loose connections was down to a fault in the d/b construction.
I use one frequently, a whia one in fact. And just recently I torqued up a neutral bar on a brand new Hager board, (setting set to the exact setting as per MI’s, and it broke the bar in 2. And no, it wasn’t done up past torque to start with just nipped then torqued. Possibly just a faulty bar yes, but still, frustrating
I bet it was. 🤦♂️
An electrician has a calibrated wrist. If you need a torque screwdriver you're not competent enough to do the work.
Have to agree to disagree on this one I guess.
I think last nights debate got a little over heated, and I think I may have offended and upset
Someone. That was not my intention, there are two people in particular from the eFix team as I don’t know who was responding to the post so I sincerely hope I have not offended or upset them . I have a lot of respect for the guy’s at eFix and GHS so please accept my sincere apologies .
Time to draw a line under the subject of the torque screwdriver , so let’s just agree to disagree I feel bad enough without this continuing on . End of story
No worries Sean, we're all good. 👍
Connections in a board should be torqued down at the point for where most circuits should experience the highest load, except for those circuits that supply an invididual piece of equipment for example. Not that almost all DIY'ers will care. So should say a cooker plate having a high powered single fixed load, with the power equal at both ends, have torque settings specificed by a manufacturer to prevent under/over tightening etc, as most people fall in the mantra of more torques = more betterer?
You raise an interesting point here, it'll be interesting to see if manufacturers start specifying torque values for accessories other than consumer units etc. We'll see!
Brought one of the wiha torque drivers as had the rest of the kit , use it every time on boards , come across no end of boards where it’s been over tightened and twisted the terminal out of place (prob by impact or battery driver )
Really good to know! 👍
So realistically, if we don't use a torque screwdriver ( yes, I do, checked twice normally) and the manufacturer recommended its use, you should declare this in the departures from BS7671 in any cert you issue?? Or would that be too far?
Should we also use a torque screwdriver on terminals in all socket and lighting final circuits? Or can we use the "manufacturers instructions" clause to omit this?
I have it for servicing inspections. Super happy with it for most applications, wish their was Allen bits.
If it’s a whia one you can get Allen blades that fit in , got one for the earth pme terminal
@@cj-rb8fz thanks I'll look into. It is a whia
The problem is that some folk think "oh the driver has clicked, its torqued up". NO it fecking isn't! Give it a pull, 9/10 it will be loose. Torque it, leave it, tug it and repeat. Strands flatten out and become loose. Better option is to flatten strands out before putting in terminal. But what do I know, see present wife for further details
Good advice!
What language do they torque?
😂👍
That stuff bulls are full of
@@Dog-whisperer7494 grass?😕
You could argue that "take account of" doesn't mean the same as "follow to the absolute letter" . Oxford defines it a "consider (something) along with other factors before reaching a decision." and merriam-webster "to give attention or consideration to (something)"
So let's imagine something goes wrong and you have a warranty claim or worse a fire - how does the argument for ignoring the manufacturer's instructions stack up?
@@efixx Read it again "taking account of" doesn't mean ignoring. If the regulations mean "follow the manufacturers instructions to the letter" then they need to say that but they don't. But also there's the practical aspect of how would anyone ever prove the screws weren't done up to the correct torque and hasn't been interfered with since?
@@mfx1 Instructions say tighten cover screws to 1.7nM to ensure a waterproof seal, in your own judgement, decide not to follow this and over tighten the seal. Three months later product fails due to moisture ingress through the over-tightened seal. Who's liable for the problem? Some instructions are black and white.
Common variables, such as wire type (single strand or multi). Quality of wire.? (or the screws themselves).
In the 55 or so years I have been tightening screws, so they don't get hot, or damage the wire, I have never used such a device.
I would need to check tightness with a normal screwdriver afterwards, so what use would a torque driver be.?
So know you're not over tightening it as well? As long as I follow the instructions, I don't need to worry about something failing in my installs.
To set the torque to the correct setting as specified by the manufacturer. 👍
David,
I entirely agree.
@@efixx Indeed, but, what if the calibration was way out, and you didn't realise.? Do you just blindly carry on and not go back to the previous installation, where the torque settings are now wrong, or do you use years of experience to tighten them properly with a standard driver in the first place.?
A torque screwdriver doesn't do the work for you. Once you've getting to the point where it's going to release, it feels identical to doing it with a fixed screwdriver.
I suppose the concern is new electricians who have zero clue what the required torque feels like and blindly follow what their equipment says without also applying a little common sense. Torque screwdrivers would absolutely not be the first place that happens though!
My two pennies worth, if an accident happens and you end up in court being prosecuted , and you were asked did you torque up the screws in the CU , according to the manufacturer instructions , pulling out you torque screwdriver in court can save your bacon. . It's not worth the risk of not having one
Good point well made
Spot on Robert, spot on.
Manufacturers instructions are not a legal requirement so you can not be prosecuted for not following the instructions. But yes if you want to protect yourself and your reputation then it’s worth the hassle
NO Way would I pull my tool out in a Court.....not after the last restraining order anyway
@@Dog-whisperer7494 yes you can . It would be regarded as negligent if you don't follow manufacturer instructions. There has be many a court case were people have not followed manufacturer instructions and tried to sue. And lost in court , and had to pay all court cost. If you went to trading standing standard or you asked your solicitor the first question would be, did you follow the manufacturer instructions, because the manufacturer would be regarded as the expert not you , because it's there product they designed it they tested it, not you . I suggest you look up the laws on negligence. When you purchase goods the manufacturer instructions form part of the contract on supply of those goods , so I suggest you read consumer ,
What are the problems with over torquing? I've seen plenty of issues with under torqued connections over the years but if its done up firm are there any problems?
Damaged conductors, distorted terminals , broken pcb terminals and leaking waterproof seals.
I've managed to snap the end off a torque screwdriver blade tightening a crabtree Rcbo live/line terminal as I used one of the thinner blades because of the insulation stopping the end reaching the terminal screw as they are further in.
Luckily local wholesalers just swapped it for a new blade
Recently bought one, I have found the sl/2 bit rounds the screw before it gets to 2.5 nm am I buying cheap boards 🤔
You're probably using the wrong bit.
Is that definitely the right size bit?
Sorry SL/PZ 2 bit Wiha 🤷♂️
Just trying to make the job more difficult with all this shit so all the consumer units that haven’t been done are all dangerous I don’t think so
More and more regulations if it’s not broke don’t fix it
If that's the case.. then what about sockets? Similar principle...or not?
Here in Germany or Austria I have never heard of normal electricians using torque screwdrivers.
Exactly it’s a German/ Austrian invention yet they don’t use them there selfs . It’s just an other way for the manufacturers to make even more money the french don’t use them either nor the Americans. It’s all BS
@@Dog-whisperer7494 in Belgium we also don't use it in fuseboards .. never seen someone use it . ( i do own one ) but yes loose screws can cause big problems ...
@@kittsdiy
But I think there is a bigger risk of overtighten it.
Was never really used in Norway either, but now it is more frequently used. And it is needed as well, many connections get over tighten and some is to loose.
Do we need torque test stations at distributors so people can check their calibration!?
Some form of calibration is required! 😬
This seems to be as much about liability as practicality.
Interesting perspective @efixx. The regs clearly state that it is a mandatory requirement that the manufacturers instructions are to be taken into account. However they fall short of mandating adherence to the instructions which is rather odd and it is a shame that you don't raise this in the video. Further, manufacturers' instructions are generally very vague, poorly written and often do not mandate torque settings; again, a shame you dont raise this. So on that basis it is bit of a stretch to say that use of torque screwdrivers is needed... Whilst it is without doubt good practice to use torque screwdrivers, their use is clearly not mandated as the regs are vague which is also often the case with manufacturers' instructions.
Another attempt to de-skill basic craftsmanship.
What causes these to fail at college joe through constant use?
Thanks 😅😊
No
How did we all survive before
Not everyone did.
Do electric drill screwdrivers work for this job ?
The regs do not state torque screwdrivers are needed. Only used when makers state so.
I think what you are saying, is that many makers state their screws need to be torqued down, so we need one anyhow.
That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. 👍
In my opinion the torque settings applied should be evidenced on the relevant electrical certificate as prove of compliance with manufacturers instructions. Just owning the tool is not enough.
Good point, like this.
Great video as always Joe.
We DO NOT need to use a torque screwdriver, manufacturers instructions are not a legal requirement they are nothing more than a recommendation , do you read the instruction book for every single item you buy like that new TV or the new fridge freezer? No you don’t what about the flat pack TV cabinet who reads the instructions for them no one if it is not a legal requirement or in the regs then we do not have to use them simple.
Nothing in BS 7671 is a legal requirement as it's a non-statutory document but to be compliant with the regs you need to follow manufacturer's instructions which may include the use of a torque screwdriver.
@@efixx NO WE DON’T.
You have just said so yourself
MAY include the use of a torque screwdriver not will it comes down to personal choice . And years of experience .
But to be honest I have brought my self a torque screwdriver I got the Dapper model and I hate it the tip of the blade broke the first time I used it . will continue I use it yes only because my hands are not as strong these days .
Interesting, so we dont need to torque down 240 mm2 AL either according to you? You do that by feel?
Please stop typing at me in caps Sean, it gives the impression you're shouting at me. I'm saying the manufacturer’s instructions may state a torque value. If they do, we have to use a torque screwdriver to comply. We always have a personal choice in life and if you're happy not to comply with the regs that's your choice. But if you want to comply with the regs and the manufacturer states a torque value then a torque screwdriver will be required. This isn't my opinion it's very clear in the regs.
@@efixx first of all I don’t mean to give you the impression that I am shouting at you please for give me.
Secondly I am not saying we shouldn’t use a torque screwdriver I just saying that it is not a legal requirement and that the regulations are not clear on it if it was then it would be a regulation . My doctor said I should stop smoking not that I have to stop smoking ,
Law is law . Recommendations are not law .